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Haiden
02-03-2016, 02:47
Dam, I wanted to do some reasearch on ForceFeedback since I thought it was long overdue. But, 4000 posts in this thread alone will take me over 33 hours to do at 30 seconds a post!:nightmare:

There must be an easier way.

First thing I would do is find the right Scoop settings (Knee and Reduction). You can use a tool or take the easier route and just check the threads to see what others with your wheel are using and try those. :) But get the Scoop set first, before toying with other things. It'll save you a lot of time.

Also... what Chicago suburb are you from/at? I live in Chicago now, but grew up in the south suburbs--Chicago Heights/Park Forest. :)

Haiden
02-03-2016, 03:33
I think that you should try My FFB PDF again with 9.0 and test the Readjusted RAC values... I even Managed to get All the FA cars with No oscillation!!!....With My Tweek TF controls wheel weight and you can + or - the FFB Effects, Curbs, Bumps with the RAC. then set the Final at the wheel Strength with th GM FFB... The Tweek is wirking Very well!!! The Tweek can be used with or without SoP.... once you get a feel for it the in Car FFB settings can be adjusted to taste. just a suggestion.

Grimey, I gave these a shot. But I'm confused on a couple things. First, when I started plugging them in, I noticed your wheel FF is set to 75, but you recommend setting the in-game FF at 35 for PS4. The thing is, on the PS4, the CSW-v2 seems to ignore the in-game FF. So you're basically running FF at 75. I tested this by plugging in all your settings exactly as they are on the PDF, and then tried in-game FF at 0, 35, and 100. There's was absolutely no difference in the wheel strength. All three settings felt exactly the same, which follows the PS4/CSW-v2 bug or issue, or whatever it is. But with your wheel set to 75, it seems like that's your actual in-game FF. Because even at 0, it felt exactly the same. When I lowered the wheel FF to 35, it was just too light. So that's my confusion with that one. Have you tried setting the in-game to 0 and then 100 with your wheel at 75?

The other thing that confused me was there was a lot of oscillation in the FA. It was very strong. I'm not sure how you aren't feeling it. Again, I copied your settings exactly as they appear in the PDF, in-car settings, too. Not sure what the difference is. :confused:

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 03:37
I also think comparing mid-level sim wheels to a RL wheel in an actual race car is a little apples to oranges. The forces acting on that RL rim are far greater than our mid-level consumer sim wheels can produce. A DD wheel would come closer. What we feel may be similar physics-wise, but at way lower force levels. Also, the wheel in the video is actually fairly calm on straights and easy corners. It's mostly under heavy braking that he get the shimmies. But he's also running the Nordschleife. You'll always be wrestling the wheel on that track. I doubt there'd be so much fight driving on Silverstone, Dubai, or even on Nurburgring.

Im Not Compairing your wheels to a RL on a 1 to 1 basis... but PCars is a Sim and at least i want to get as close to the real thing as possible...With all the FFB settings talk it seems that Many of us are trying to get as Close as possible... The point of the Video was to show that trying to simulate driving a Race Car at Race Car Speeds to expect a calm wheel is Not Very Sim Like...Im Struggling to figure out what wheel Feel is being Chased??? Im starting to think the problem is Choice....Just too Many settings to be played with:confused: Chasing FFB the unicorn.... What is the diff between road Noise and Road Feel???

9.0 has greatly improved the FFB feel...Even the FA have No Oscillation anymore and all it took was lowering the Fz, Mz & SoP... No Smoothing, Damping or arm adjustment Needed. the FA in car Tweek was the Last bit of FFB that i Needed to sort out... My FA in car settings have No Oscillation Now:cool: ... I might even start Racing them Now.

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 08:21
Grimey, I gave these a shot. But I'm confused on a couple things. First, when I started plugging them in, I noticed your wheel FF is set to 75, but you recommend setting the in-game FF at 35 for PS4. The thing is, on the PS4, the CSW-v2 seems to ignore the in-game FF. So you're basically running FF at 75. I tested this by plugging in all your settings exactly as they are on the PDF, and then tried in-game FF at 0, 35, and 100. There's was absolutely no difference in the wheel strength. All three settings felt exactly the same, which follows the PS4/CSW-v2 bug or issue, or whatever it is. But with your wheel set to 75, it seems like that's your actual in-game FF. Because even at 0, it felt exactly the same. When I lowered the wheel FF to 35, it was just too light. So that's my confusion with that one. Have you tried setting the in-game to 0 and then 100 with your wheel at 75?

The other thing that confused me was there was a lot of oscillation in the FA. It was very strong. I'm not sure how you aren't feeling it. Again, I copied your settings exactly as they appear in the PDF, in-car settings, too. Not sure what the difference is. :confused:

great post! i also think grimey should correct the ffb 35 for ps4 to 75 in his OP .pdf

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 08:40
by the way:I asked around also in other forums, but no reaction yet to my question why Fz works "inverse"?. Meaning Fz creating FFB that pulls the wheel into the corner instead of the other way round?

Only 7 or 8 cars in pCars have Fz that is not "inverse". I cannot imagine that the majority of cars in Pcars all have a negative scrub radius. With a positive scrub radius that is imo with race cars in reality more probable Fz should work into the same direction as Fy and Mz.

If i get more weight on the outside-curve front tire while cornering (weight-shift) i'd expect getting more load on my wheel, instead of getting a lighter wheel. With 90% of pCars cars it just happens the other way round: The Steering gets lighter. Which is wrong i think. Don't believe it? Isolate Fz, by turning the other forces down, you'll see... Just make sure you don't pick one of the few cars that have a "positive" Fz, see list here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224942

You can also test it by leaving your FFB mix as it is, but just turning Fz off, you'll see wheel gets heavier while cornering.

Does anybody have a clue?

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 09:04
If helps anyone, this is a linear test I did a whole ago with the Control Panel set at 100% FFB

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1y9vnxHzFipAPjGPOekdpEkmq7p8cV7Q3WQi4AOZWhX0/edit?usp=sharing

And here another with 75% FFB
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/144Mnou2TYmTIq_8QOQ38XZBJyOWlD1AFw5WnpKiqQY8/edit?usp=sharing

Are you sure your links are correct? I get these 2 graphs as attached. One with Scoop, one without scoop. But i don't see the different FFB (100 and 75) settings?

228817228818

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 09:43
Grimey, I gave these a shot. But I'm confused on a couple things. First, when I started plugging them in, I noticed your wheel FF is set to 75, but you recommend setting the in-game FF at 35 for PS4. The thing is, on the PS4, the CSW-v2 seems to ignore the in-game FF. So you're basically running FF at 75. I tested this by plugging in all your settings exactly as they are on the PDF, and then tried in-game FF at 0, 35, and 100. There's was absolutely no difference in the wheel strength. All three settings felt exactly the same, which follows the PS4/CSW-v2 bug or issue, or whatever it is. But with your wheel set to 75, it seems like that's your actual in-game FF. Because even at 0, it felt exactly the same. When I lowered the wheel FF to 35, it was just too light. So that's my confusion with that one. Have you tried setting the in-game to 0 and then 100 with your wheel at 75?

The other thing that confused me was there was a lot of oscillation in the FA. It was very strong. I'm not sure how you aren't feeling it. Again, I copied your settings exactly as they appear in the PDF, in-car settings, too. Not sure what the difference is. :confused:

https://youtu.be/8B9mOtfNj-I

These are the FA settings... I posted this Video a few days ago... Settings shown at end of video...

The Wheel.Feels best to Me at GM FFB 35... No Need to use more Than that... Recomended GM FFB for a V2 is 50 so 35 is a good Medium.

spacepadrille
02-03-2016, 09:52
Are you never sleeping, Grimey ? ;-)

Bunga412
02-03-2016, 10:46
Are you never sleeping, Grimey ? ;-)

New York buddy.

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 11:44
Are you never sleeping, Grimey ? ;-)

New Yorker Never Sleep... LoL


great post! i also think grimey should correct the ffb 35 for ps4 to 75 in his OP .pdf

With 9.0 the GM FFB defaults to 50... Since 35 has always been the GM FFB value that has given the best Feel i see No Need to amend that in the PDF.

I too have Trouble feeling a diff when GM FFB is + or - from 35.
tracks with steep horse shoe turns is where i Notice a slight diff Ex Rouen essartes/ Donnington GP but its very slight... Wheel temp seems to remain the same also if i leave GM FFB at 50... I dunno... But in any event the Sweet spot has been 35 for Me using the V2. Default FFB being 50 so 35 is a good Happy Medium.

Lets see how it goes or if things change with 10.0 update... My best guess is that 9.0 is updated to the New Fanatec SDK and the auto feature is some now controls GM FFB according to Fanatec wheel used.

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 11:48
New Yorker Never Sleep... LoL



With 9.0 the GM FFB defaults to 50... Since 35 has always been the GM FFB value that has given the best Feel i see No Need to amend that in the PDF.

I too have Trouble feeling a diff when GM FFB is + or - from 35.
tracks with steep horse shoe turns is where i Notice a slight diff Ex Rouen essartes/ Donnington GP but its very slight... Wheel temp seems to remain the same also if i leave GM FFB at 50... I dunno... But in any event the Sweet spot has been 35 for Me using the V2. Default FFB being 50 so 35 is a good Happy Medium.

Lets see how it goes or if things change with 10.0 update... My best guess is that 9.0 is updated to the New Fanatec SDK and the auto feature is some now controls GM FFB according to Fanatec wheel used.

it's this CSW v2 thing... don't mind. PS4 users with a T300 will figure it out by themselves ;-)

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 11:56
Grimey, I gave these a shot. But I'm confused on a couple things. First, when I started plugging them in, I noticed your wheel FF is set to 75, but you recommend setting the in-game FF at 35 for PS4. The thing is, on the PS4, the CSW-v2 seems to ignore the in-game FF. So you're basically running FF at 75. I tested this by plugging in all your settings exactly as they are on the PDF, and then tried in-game FF at 0, 35, and 100. There's was absolutely no difference in the wheel strength. All three settings felt exactly the same, which follows the PS4/CSW-v2 bug or issue, or whatever it is. But with your wheel set to 75, it seems like that's your actual in-game FF. Because even at 0, it felt exactly the same. When I lowered the wheel FF to 35, it was just too light. So that's my confusion with that one. Have you tried setting the in-game to 0 and then 100 with your wheel at 75?

The other thing that confused me was there was a lot of oscillation in the FA. It was very strong. I'm not sure how you aren't feeling it. Again, I copied your settings exactly as they appear in the PDF, in-car settings, too. Not sure what the difference is. :confused:

I hope you didnt take my post the wrong way... Im Not arguing or being combative... i have been posting from a S6 phone... the typing screen is small so i have been posting very brief comments... But Please do try My Tweek and FA again with the settings posted in the Video and let Me know what you think.... I have Not had time to make a New PDF yet but you will find that there is Little to No Oscillation with the FA cars with these settings... the Mz can even be turned down further to taste while still maintaining Good Road Feel.:D

https://youtu.be/8B9mOtfNj-I

I also made a Video for FC cars as well... Check that Video also im sure that you will see the pattern and be able to adjust the Tweek to any Formula car you want if yo like the feel and choise to use the Tweek.

https://youtu.be/5aXX_jia0qE

In both Videos My hand Movement match the on Screen wheel movement almost exactly 1 to 1....No Oscillation or Fighting with the wheel... Ive never been a big Formula Driver but i could get into them!!! Those cars are Glued to the Road like your Riding on Rails!!!

in car FFB settings shown at end of video...like always... LOL

Haiden
02-03-2016, 12:57
Im Not Compairing your wheels to a RL on a 1 to 1 basis... but PCars is a Sim and at least i want to get as close to the real thing as possible...With all the FFB settings talk it seems that Many of us are trying to get as Close as possible... The point of the Video was to show that trying to simulate driving a Race Car at Race Car Speeds to expect a calm wheel is Not Very Sim Like...Im Struggling to figure out what wheel Feel is being Chased??? Im starting to think the problem is Choice....Just too Many settings to be played with:confused: Chasing FFB the unicorn.... What is the diff between road Noise and Road Feel???

Personally, I like realism, but understand that a sim wheel has limitations and will never be RL accurate. Not sure what close as possible means to you, but I'm more interested in getting the wheel to communicate grip levels, transfer, slip, etc in a way that I can feel and understand. Sometimes, that may not feel exactly the way it does in RL. SoP is a prime example. Many people use it, but the forces it's trying to communicate aren't even sent through the wheel in RL. So using SoP is helpful, but not taking you any closer to realism.

I don't think anyone wants a calm wheel. I know I don't. But I don't want useless chatter. Sure it adds texture and can make the wheel feel more lively, but that doesn't change the fact that it's useless chatter/noise, irrelevant data. The fight I get from the wheel with critical feedback is more than enough for me. I wrestle with the wheel on tracks like Nordschleife, Watkins, and Sakitto, but not so much on smoother surfaces like Silverstone, Spa, and Nurburgring. That's just realistic. You shouldn't experience the same amount of fight across all tracks. Even in RL, some tracks are a smooth ride.

Road noise vs Road feel? Not sure there's much difference there. Rougher trackers create more noise. Smoother surfaces are quieter. But FFB noise is something different. Noise in the FFB stream is useless feedback, caused by one or more scales being set too high (global or in-car), and amplifying things that would normally be non-existent or small minute blips. IMO, this is useless clutter, and if the wheel feels a bit quieter without, I'm okay with that, because the data has no value to my drive.


The Wheel.Feels best to Me at GM FFB 35... No Need to use more Than that... Recomended GM FFB for a V2 is 50 so 35 is a good Medium.


With 9.0 the GM FFB defaults to 50... Since 35 has always been the GM FFB value that has given the best Feel i see No Need to amend that in the PDF.

I too have Trouble feeling a diff when GM FFB is + or - from 35.
tracks with steep horse shoe turns is where i Notice a slight diff Ex Rouen essartes/ Donnington GP but its very slight... Wheel temp seems to remain the same also if i leave GM FFB at 50... I dunno... But in any event the Sweet spot has been 35 for Me using the V2. Default FFB being 50 so 35 is a good Happy Medium.

Lets see how it goes or if things change with 10.0 update... My best guess is that 9.0 is updated to the New Fanatec SDK and the auto feature is some now controls GM FFB according to Fanatec wheel used.

That's the thing, though. Right now, you aren't running GM FFB at 35, because your wheel is set to 75. Even if the wheel FF isn't a one-to-one with the GM FFB, it's still pushing your FF higher than 35. I think this is important to mention, because we're trying to share accurate information with others that they can use to make their own adjustments. They can't do that when you tell them GM FFB feels best at 35, but due to some programming glitch, you're not actually running it at 35. :) You also often say how you don't like high FF, but it looks like you might actually be running it at 75, which, considering your TF=100, is actually on the higher side. :)

I don't know if the CSW-v2 thing will be fixed, because the lack of an Auto FF feature isn't a PCars thing. Even when you boot your wheel without any game connection, there's still no Auto feature when it's in PS4 mode. The Auto option only appears when it's in Xb1 mode. That being said, in F1 2015, if you start the game with the wheel FF set to 100, it does behave like the Auto feature. But if you change the wheel FF (even to just 99), the wheel suddenly gets very heavy, like the Auto feature is gone and it's not set 99. Except the strength of wheel FF=99 is even stronger than setting the in-game scales to 100, so I'm not sure what's going on there.


I hope you didnt take my post the wrong way... Im Not aguing or being combative... i have been posting from a S6 phone... the typing screen is small so i have been posting very brief comments... But Please do try My Tweek and FA again with the settings posted in the Video and let Me know what you think.... I have Not had time to make a New PDF yet but you will find that there is Little to No Oscillation with the FA car with these settings... the Mz can even be turned down further to taste while still maintaining Good Road Feel.:D

I didn't take it wrong. I hope you didn't, either. I just read your post, saying to give your settings in the new PDF a try, and I did. The in-cars settings in the PDF don't work. I don't need to test the ones in the video, because I can see the lower Mz. With it set that low, I'm not surprised the oscillation is gone. :) Overall, though, I'm sticking with Jack's settings. Combined with his in-car settings, they feel the best to me. Better than anything I've tried on the CSW-v2. The cars all feel unique and different, without suffering any losses. When I tried the one-tune for all, I would get it working great in my favorite, and a few others. But there were always a few cars that were just okay, that I knew could have been better with a few car-specific adjustments. Specific in-car settings is a little more work, but IMO, it's worth the effort.

poirqc
02-03-2016, 13:04
Are you sure your links are correct? I get these 2 graphs as attached. One with Scoop, one without scoop. But i don't see the different FFB (100 and 75) settings?

228817228818

Links are good, if you look at the actual data, in the other tabs, 100% had an actual stronger force and a smaller deadzone. 75% has it's max output lower and the deadzone a tad bigger.

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 15:05
That's the thing, though. Right now, you aren't running GM FFB at 35, because your wheel is set to 75. Even if the wheel FF isn't a one-to-one with the GM FFB, it's still pushing your FF higher than 35. I think this is important to mention, because we're trying to share accurate information with others that they can use to make their own adjustments. They can't do that when you tell them GM FFB feels best at 35, but due to some programming glitch, you're not actually running it at 35. :) You also often say how you don't like high FF, but it looks like you might actually be running it at 75, which, considering your TF=100, is actually on the higher side. :)

I don't know if the CSW-v2 thing will be fixed, because the lack of an Auto FF feature isn't a PCars thing. Even when you boot your wheel without any game connection, there's still no Auto feature when it's in PS4 mode. The Auto option only appears when it's in Xb1 mode.

Case and point... What we do know is that 9.0 updated Pcars to the Newest Fanatec SDK...What we dont know is if Fanatec the on the wheel FFB Now over rides the GM FFB because there is No Auto FFB function on PS4:confused: (BTW the Auto FFB on XB1 Sucks IMO i use the Same wheel settings PS4 or XB1)....that would be a Great Question to have answered by SMS.... We also Know that GM FFB for the V2 default is 50... with that said 35 has always been the Sweet spot for My V2 wheel when GM FFB had a Major impact on at the wheel FFB strength so it seems to reason that 35 is a very Happy medium for the v2 wheel.

When setting GM FFB you must consider the fact that when you alter Global and in Car FFB settings you + or - the FFB strength before it is influenced by the GM FFB which sets the Final power out put to the wheel.

Fact the Default GM FFB v2 wheel is 50...My Theory I figure the Global (TF 100 + RAG 100 + Steering Gain 1.00) can boost the FFB output at least 15% so being default GM FFB V2 value is 50...
50 - 15 = 35 GM FFB ----> +15 power increase from Global settings +35 GM FFB = Default GM FFB 50 sent to Wheel.... This is just My Math theory because 35 GM FFB has always been the Sweet Spot with My Tweek for the V2... as it was before above 35 the wheel was too Strong and Ran Hotter, below 35 the Wheel was weaker.... Below 20 there was No Difference.

The best way i can explain it... No one but SMS knows the True Mechanics of the FFB system we dunno if any Math regarding the FFB system makes sense or can be deemed credable.

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 15:21
Links are good, if you look at the actual data, in the other tabs, 100% had an actual stronger force and a smaller deadzone. 75% has it's max output lower and the deadzone a tad bigger.



many thanks poirqc! smaller deadzone with 100? FFB was expected. But does the test prove that the T300 can take the full 100 FFB signal strength without grinding and artefacts?

konnos
02-03-2016, 15:32
Grimey your math theory is bordering on numerology, where are you pulling all these numbers from with no evidence? It's nice that you attempt (and are able) to feel your way into your tune, but please refrain from trying to explain it with numbers, you are making me question my sanity! :P

Haiden
02-03-2016, 15:45
Case and point... What we do know is that 9.0 updated Pcars to the Newest Fanatec SDK...What we dont know is if Fanatec the on the wheel FFB Now over rides the GM FFB because there is No Auto FFB function on PS4:confused: (BTW the Auto FFB on XB1 Sucks IMO i use the Same wheel settings PS4 or XB1)....that would be a Great Question to have answered by SMS.... We also Know that GM FFB for the V2 default is 50... with that said 35 has always been the Sweet spot for My V2 wheel when GM FFB had a Major impact on at the wheel FFB strength so it seems to reason that 35 is a very Happy medium for the v2 wheel.

When setting GM FFB you must consider the fact that when you alter Global and in Car FFB settings you + or - the FFB strength before it is influenced by the GM FFB which sets the Final power out put to the wheel.

Fact the Default GM FFB v2 wheel is 50...My Theory I figure the Global (TF 100 + RAG 100 + Steering Gain 1.00) can boost the FFB output at least 15% so being default GM FFB V2 value is 50...
50 - 15 = 35 GM FFB ----> +15 power increase from Global settings +35 GM FFB = Default GM FFB 50 sent to Wheel.... This is just My Math theory because 35 GM FFB has always been the Sweet Spot with My Tweek for the V2... as it was before above 35 the wheel was too Strong and Ran Hotter, below 35 the Wheel was weaker.... Below 20 there was No Difference.

The best way i can explain it... No one but SMS knows the True Mechanics of the FFB system we dunno if any Math regarding the FFB system makes sense or can be deemed credable.

I think the Fanatec issue is kind of related to the fact that PS4 mode is the same as PC mode. And, like PC players have said, the GM FFB doesn't matter for them, so they set it to 100 and then use the PC driver control panel to adjust FF. This is why I'm not sure it will ever be fixed in PCars1.

Can't comment on the equation. I get what you're saying, but don't know if the relations are accurate/true.

Edit: The equation is based on an assumption. How do you know that those global settings increase FFB by 15%? Also, TF, RAG, and SG are not benign operators. They change the force dynamic and are part of the calculated output. FF is benign, applied to the final calculation. I don't think you can equate three active operators with one passive control, without knowing exactly what the three operators are doing. And even if it did add up to 50, your wheel FF is set to 75, so you're actually over the default FF=50 (assuming wheel FF is working the way it does on PC).

poirqc
02-03-2016, 15:58
many thanks poirqc! smaller deadzone with 100? FFB was expected. But does the test prove that the T300 can take the full 100 FFB signal strength without grinding and artefacts?

No, it doesn't actually tell how well it translate to driving. It just tells that the wheel move faster(stronger) when you send more signal. The test is static, wheel move from TDC to the left, more and more, while you're not touching it.

At some point, i wanted to try wheelcheck again, while grabbing the wheel with the same grip i use when driving, to see how the wheel behave under load. However, it didn't really pan out well. And didn't really bother with it afterwards.

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 16:24
I think the Fanatec issue is kind of related to the fact that PS4 mode is the same as PC mode. And, like PC players have said, the GM FFB doesn't matter for them, so they set it to 100 and then use the PC driver control panel to adjust FF. This is why I'm not sure it will ever be fixed in PCars1.

Can't comment on the equation. I get what you're saying, but don't know if the relations are accurate/true.

Edit: The equation is based on an assumption. How do you know that those global settings increase FFB by 15%? Also, TF, RAG, and SG are not benign operators. They change the force dynamic and are part of the calculated output. FF is benign, applied to the final calculation. I don't think you can equate three active operators with one passive control, without knowing exactly what the three operators are doing. And even if it did add up to 50, your wheel FF is set to 75, so you're actually over the default FF=50 (assuming wheel FF is working the way it does on PC).

No Pcars Math Tweek is Exact... Not Mine, Not JS Nor any other Mathematical based Tweek...SMS did Not Give out a Mathematical Tweek formula... The Best we can do is Go by Feel... and as i said 35 has always been the Sweet spot for My Tweek... That Math Equation as i stated in the post was just My theory that best works with My Tweek and i just came up with that when i was posting to try to explain why 35 works so well for Me.... LOL!!! But in any event Changing the Global settings will + or - the FFB before the GM FFB that was the point... By how Much it increases the FFB before the GM FFB is any 1's Guess or theory.
Take Note that i have always stated that My Tweek was done by Feel only... I have Never used any of the Calculators to Me they dont make sense because you end up having to tweek and fine tune by Feel any way:confused:

Seems that your Assuming that the Fanatec On the Wheel FFB over rides the GM FFB... This we Can Not Confirm either so at best its just a theory and cant be held as true or false... all though it sort of makes sense with 9.0:yes:

Also Remember that the Fanatec on wheel FFB control has always been independent of Game FFB Consol or PC and only used for on the wheel FFB power control Only... Now they are doing Auto FFB but we cant confirm that it works with PS4 Pcars... XB1 Auto FFB sucks IMO....feels better when i set it my self Pcars and Forza.

Haiden
02-03-2016, 17:03
Seems that your Assuming that the Fanatec On the Wheel FFB over rides the GM FFB... This we Can Not Confirm either so at best its just a theory and cant be held as true or false... all though it sort of makes sense with 9.0:yes:

Also Remember that the Fanatec on wheel FFB control has always been independent of Game FFB Consol or PC and only used for on the wheel FFB power control Only... Now they are doing Auto FFB but we cant confirm that it works with PS4 Pcars... XB1 Auto FFB sucks IMO....feels better when i set it my self Pcars and Forza.

How is it an assumption? You can test it and duplicate the result. Set your wheel to 75 or 100, and then test the GM FFB at 0, 35, 50, 75, and 100. There is no difference in wheel strength at any of those settings, as long as the wheel is set to a fixed value. Now, set the wheel FF to 0 and the GM FFB to 100, and there's no strength in the wheel. That's not an assumption. The wheel is overriding the game. Is it one-to-one? That I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems close to it. Override or not, your wheel setting of 75 is definitely boosting the GM FF higher than 35. Just run the test. It's easy to see.

Also, I don't think it's true that the Fanatec wheel FF has been independent of the GM FFB. From the beginning, PC users have said the GM FFB, is passive for them and doesn't do anything. They use the PC driver control panel or wheel FF to set the force strength. On the CSW-v2, PS4 and PC use the same mode. XB1 is the only platform with it's own mode. So I'm not surprised that the PS4 is ignoring the GM FFB, like the PC.

PureMalt77
02-03-2016, 17:36
many thanks poirqc! smaller deadzone with 100? FFB was expected. But does the test prove that the T300 can take the full 100 FFB signal strength without grinding and artefacts?
Interesting, I would say this is why I'm liking my current settings without scoop: let low forces be raised and get more detail. Perhaps reduce TF a bit to have the average snake line in the 75% range?

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 17:44
How is it an assumption? You can test it and duplicate the result. Set your wheel to 75 or 100, and then test the GM FFB at 0, 35, 50, 75, and 100. There is no difference in wheel strength at any of those settings, as long as the wheel is set to a fixed value. Now, set the wheel FF to 0 and the GM FFB to 100, and there's no strength in the wheel. That's not an assumption. The wheel is overriding the game. Is it one-to-one? That I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems close to it. Override or not, your wheel setting of 75 is definitely boosting the GM FF higher than 35. Just run the test. It's easy to see.

Also, I don't think it's true that the Fanatec wheel FF has been independent of the GM FFB. From the beginning, PC users have said the GM FFB, is passive for them and doesn't do anything. They use the PC driver control panel or wheel FF to set the force strength. On the CSW-v2, PS4 and PC use the same mode. XB1 is the only platform with it's own mode. So I'm not surprised that the PS4 is ignoring the GM FFB, like the PC.

Ok... if you say so.:p.. We cant assume without fact based info from SMS....Because as you said it may be a bug that may Never get fixed in Pcars 1:confused:...but any way did you know you can control the FFB efeects forces by + or - with the FOR setting on V2/V1 wheels???

Hopefully everything stays the same with 10.0 and we can come up with some concrete conclusions.

poirqc
02-03-2016, 18:04
How is it an assumption? You can test it and duplicate the result. Set your wheel to 75 or 100, and then test the GM FFB at 0, 35, 50, 75, and 100. There is no difference in wheel strength at any of those settings, as long as the wheel is set to a fixed value. Now, set the wheel FF to 0 and the GM FFB to 100, and there's no strength in the wheel. That's not an assumption. The wheel is overriding the game. Is it one-to-one? That I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems close to it. Override or not, your wheel setting of 75 is definitely boosting the GM FF higher than 35. Just run the test. It's easy to see.

Also, I don't think it's true that the Fanatec wheel FF has been independent of the GM FFB. From the beginning, PC users have said the GM FFB, is passive for them and doesn't do anything. They use the PC driver control panel or wheel FF to set the force strength. On the CSW-v2, PS4 and PC use the same mode. XB1 is the only platform with it's own mode. So I'm not surprised that the PS4 is ignoring the GM FFB, like the PC.

It actually does something. You just have to choose between the GM FFB or the windows drivers.

Haiden
02-03-2016, 18:08
Ok... if you say so.:p.. We cant assume without fact based info from SMS....Because as you said it may be a bug that may Never get fixed in Pcars 1:confused:...but any way did you know you can control the FFB efeects forces by + or - with the FOR setting on V2/V1 wheels???

Hopefully everything stays the same with 10.0 and we can come up with some concrete conclusions.


You're funny. I admit, the latter is definitely a guess on my part (about the PC/PS4 mode), but there's no denying that the CSW-v2 wheel FF is overriding the GM FFB. A simple test shows that, and others have also noted it. Sorry, buddy... I think you're actually in the high FF club. :)

Not sure... What do you mean by control? What aspect of the FFB system is it manipulating?

morpwr
02-03-2016, 19:11
Its seems there are two schools of thought here. Some of us want to feel all the details and some want the wheel weight. Both are fine obviously as they both have there own merits and both are fast as seen by the lap times.

konnos
02-03-2016, 19:22
To be honest, with enough practice, you would not need FFB to drive fast laps. I can drive almost just as fast with no FFB, because I know some tracks well enough to be able to know lines and speed. FFB is very immersive of course and gives you details if you need to re-act to unforeseen things. Don't forget that there are people using gamepads posting good times in TimeTrial. I think that FFB will help you more to discover in an intuitive way your cars behaviour and limits than anything else.

morpwr
02-03-2016, 19:35
Hi All ! After reading all this new stuff (this thread is really very active ;-), and following morpwr's advice, I lowered the gain from 1.22 to 1.06-1.10, and raise FF from O.69 to 0.75... It feels great ! Better with GT3 than with road cars, but great. Less noise, more pertinent information. Going too far this way may result un an efficient but "robotic" driving.

Following the advise of tennenbaum, I tried after that to cut off RAG/RAB/RAC, setting all that to zero, keeping the rest of the setting unchanged. I picked the Ruf, went to Glen short, and after 3 turns thinking it was strange but not so bad like that.... I beat my own record ! 1.07.2xx !!! Without RAG module, the tyres feel is excellent. The road/bump/curbs less. But to drive fast... wow ! My telemetry was not clipping, so with my actual settings RAG module is not preventing clipping but just reshaping the signal.

I go back testing, how exciting this is !

Actually at 1.0 it still clips. Only on really strong forces that aren't all that important but still there. So for most id say 1.0 is a safe starting place. Problem is if you like a heavy wheel which you obviously do at 75 you cant go lower on gain. Which is fine if that's what you like but you are sacrificing some detail for it. Looks like we are finally getting some really good setups for ffb.:D I wonder how many are clipping really bad and don't realize it? We are at tf 75 and sg at about 1.0 and it still shows it. I see what happens now with it and why you don't see it. As it hits the top of the hud it just gets chopped off. Not necessarily an obvious flat line. When you start lowering it all of the sudden its oooooh theres the top of the waveform and all the detail comes back from the ffb instead of just ffb noise. Its actually really amazing how good the ffb can be.

morpwr
02-03-2016, 19:52
To be honest, with enough practice, you would not need FFB to drive fast laps. I can drive almost just as fast with no FFB, because I know some tracks well enough to be able to know lines and speed. FFB is very immersive of course and gives you details if you need to re-act to unforeseen things. Don't forget that there are people using gamepads posting good times in TimeTrial. I think that FFB will help you more to discover in an intuitive way your cars behaviour and limits than anything else.

Agree 100% I tried it on the glen and I can turn similar laps without ffb. That's how I judge the ffb by how quickly I can adjust to a car I don't know and learn what I can and cant do especially on a track I don't know. The more useful information the easier it is.

Haiden
02-03-2016, 20:48
To be honest, with enough practice, you would not need FFB to drive fast laps. I can drive almost just as fast with no FFB, because I know some tracks well enough to be able to know lines and speed. FFB is very immersive of course and gives you details if you need to re-act to unforeseen things. Don't forget that there are people using gamepads posting good times in TimeTrial. I think that FFB will help you more to discover in an intuitive way your cars behaviour and limits than anything else.


Agree 100% I tried it on the glen and I can turn similar laps without ffb. That's how I judge the ffb by how quickly I can adjust to a car I don't know and learn what I can and cant do especially on a track I don't know. The more useful information the easier it is.

Exactly. You don't need FFB to turn fast hot laps, if you practice enough. Racing, though, is a totally different story, because you're not always going to get the prime line, or be able to hit your preferred braking point. I like to race, so there's no substitute. :)

I do the same Morpwr. The final test is always to jump on a track I'm less familiar with or haven't driven in a while in a different car. How quickly I get up to pace is a big indicator of how good the FFB is. I can tune FFB on Silverstone, Spa, and the Nordschleife, because I know them well, and know what I should be feeling and where. But I can't really judge how good the FFB is without taking it somewhere else.

Edit: FFB is one of the main reasons I sometimes back off when going into a corner wheel-to-wheel during a race. I feel something that tells me, I just don't have the grip to hold that line, or to make that pass on the outside. And vice-versa. Sometimes it tells me I can push harder and make that pass. :)

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 21:15
Its seems there are two schools of thought here. Some of us want to feel all the details and some want the wheel weight. Both are fine obviously as they both have there own merits and both are fast as seen by the lap times.


To be honest, with enough practice, you would not need FFB to drive fast laps. I can drive almost just as fast with no FFB, because I know some tracks well enough to be able to know lines and speed. FFB is very immersive of course and gives you details if you need to re-act to unforeseen things. Don't forget that there are people using gamepads posting good times in TimeTrial. I think that FFB will help you more to discover in an intuitive way your cars behaviour and limits than anything else.


Agree 100% I tried it on the glen and I can turn similar laps without ffb. That's how I judge the ffb by how quickly I can adjust to a car I don't know and learn what I can and cant do especially on a track I don't know. The more useful information the easier it is.


Exactly. You don't need FFB to turn fast hot laps, if you practice enough. Racing, though, is a totally different story, because you're not always going to get the prime line, or be able to hit your preferred braking point. I like to race, so there's no substitute. :)

I do the same Morpwr. The final test is always to jump on a track I'm less familiar with or haven't driven in a while in a different car. How quickly I get up to pace is a big indicator of how good the FFB is. I can tune FFB on Silverstone, Spa, and the Nordschleife, because I know them well, and know what I should be feeling and where. But I can't really judge how good the FFB is without taking it somewhere else.

Edit: FFB is one of the main reasons I sometimes back off when going into a corner wheel-to-wheel during a race. I feel something that tells me, I just don't have the grip to hold that line, or to make that pass on the outside. And vice-versa. Sometimes it tells me I can push harder and make that pass. :)


Agree 100%

GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 21:55
That's the thing, though. Right now, you aren't running GM FFB at 35, because your wheel is set to 75. Even if the wheel FF isn't a one-to-one with the GM FFB, it's still pushing your FF higher than 35. I think this is important to mention, because we're trying to share accurate information with others that they can use to make their own adjustments. They can't do that when you tell them GM FFB feels best at 35, but due to some programming glitch, you're not actually running it at 35. :) You also often say how you don't like high FF, but it looks like you might actually be running it at 75, which, considering your TF=100, is actually on the higher side. :)

I don't know if the CSW-v2 thing will be fixed, because the lack of an Auto FF feature isn't a PCars thing. Even when you boot your wheel without any game connection, there's still no Auto feature when it's in PS4 mode. The Auto option only appears when it's in Xb1 mode. That being said, in F1 2015, if you start the game with the wheel FF set to 100, it does behave like the Auto feature. But if you change the wheel FF (even to just 99), the wheel suddenly gets very heavy, like the Auto feature is gone and it's not set 99. Except the strength of wheel FF=99 is even stronger than setting the in-game scales to 100, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

I have been using GM FFB 35 and in car Masters 100 since 3.0 when GM FFB had a huge impact on at the wheel FFB Strength...maybe Now they have changed something in the GM FFB ....I will agree that ATM GM FFB has very little impact on at the wheel FFB Strength... but it still feels like my usual settings which have always been and still are GM FFB 35 and on wheel FFB 75.... so yes i run High FFB on the wheel but low in game FFB...But as you stated in the quote "but due to some programming glitch, you're not actually running it at 35" so yes Exactly we don't know if this is a Glitch that will be patched in 10.0 because there has been No confirmation that the Auto feature is active or working in PS4 Pcars.... however it would be a cool feature if this could be confirmed by SMS that the Fanatec wheel FFB overrides the GM FFB... For all we know its a Glitch that will be patched with 10.0 the patches keep coming so we cant assume anything.


You're funny. I admit, the latter is definitely a guess on my part (about the PC/PS4 mode), but there's no denying that the CSW-v2 wheel FF is overriding the GM FFB. A simple test shows that, and others have also noted it. Sorry, buddy... I think you're actually in the high FF club. :)

Not sure... What do you mean by control? What aspect of the FFB system is it manipulating?

you can use the V2/V1 on wheel FOR setting to reduce the FFB effects strength at the wheel .... I'm not sure if this reduces Dynamic range... it shouldn't because the wheel is still getting full signal its just not boosting the FFB signal to Max power if you reduce it... you can also increase the signal +5.... Max FOR is 150.

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 22:18
No, it doesn't actually tell how well it translate to driving. It just tells that the wheel move faster(stronger) when you send more signal. The test is static, wheel move from TDC to the left, more and more, while you're not touching it.

At some point, i wanted to try wheelcheck again, while grabbing the wheel with the same grip i use when driving, to see how the wheel behave under load. However, it didn't really pan out well. And didn't really bother with it afterwards.

i think you just figured out a remarkable issue that might change the way we look at the wheel check results... it makes a fundamental difference if you give the wheel resistance (by gabbing it) or just feed full 100 FFB to the whel, while the wheel doesn't have to overcome a counterforce (you counteracting the FFB)... i know you know... what i'm aiming at... ;-) skoader's turn now... or Dullivans, but i don't know nothing about him.

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 22:25
Agree 100%

indeed, great comments from morpwr, konnos, haiden.

tennenbaum
02-03-2016, 22:29
Actually at 1.0 it still clips. Only on really strong forces that aren't all that important but still there. So for most id say 1.0 is a safe starting place. Problem is if you like a heavy wheel which you obviously do at 75 you cant go lower on gain. Which is fine if that's what you like but you are sacrificing some detail for it. Looks like we are finally getting some really good setups for ffb.:D I wonder how many are clipping really bad and don't realize it? We are at tf 75 and sg at about 1.0 and it still shows it. I see what happens now with it and why you don't see it. As it hits the top of the hud it just gets chopped off. Not necessarily an obvious flat line. When you start lowering it all of the sudden its oooooh theres the top of the waveform and all the detail comes back from the ffb instead of just ffb noise. Its actually really amazing how good the ffb can be.

!!!

Woffu
03-03-2016, 00:42
Morpwr I'm just wondering if you could post your latest settings? Out of all the settings Iv tryed I find I like yours the best thanks for all the work

morpwr
03-03-2016, 00:58
!!!

Yes. I started at 1.22 and started turning it down until I got to 1.05 which I thought was ok. Ended at 1.0 The more I turned it down the more the small details came out or became clear so like most of us I tried turning it down more. If a little or in this case alot is good more must be better right? To my surprise it was. It was obvious on the hud by what the wave forms looked like and reflected it in what I felt. The start finish line isn't as strong but you can still feel it but the other things you can feel very clearly make it worth a little loss in actual strength. Paint lines shouldnt feel like speed bumps anyways. Starting lower than you think is much smarter with gain so you can see when things are going wrong. Turning it down is much more difficult because your brain says this cant be right it feels weaker. But if you started low and turned it up youd be thinking what happened to everything I was feeling? I'm sure many people are thinking the bumps and loose things they are feeling are actual forces when in reality its poorly set ffb. I just saw someone post in the xbox forum the exact thing I used to feel with some of the old settings. I knew what I was feeling was wrong because a car couldn't do what I was feeling but I'm sure some wouldn't realize it.

morpwr
03-03-2016, 01:03
Morpwr I'm just wondering if you could post your latest settings? Out of all the settings Iv tryed I find I like yours the best thanks for all the work

Thanks Ill try and get them up tonight. Havent really changed much though. Just turn sg down to 1.0 and raise your ffb some. You may want to drop the sr to about .20.
Give it a try and let me know what you think. It will feel a little different but it has a lot more detail to it this way I think.

BigDad
03-03-2016, 01:04
I have been using GM FFB 35 and in car Masters 100 since 3.0 when GM FFB had a huge impact on at the wheel FFB Strength...maybe Now they have changed something in the GM FFB ....I will agree that ATM GM FFB has very little impact on at the wheel FFB Strength... but it still feels like my usual settings which have always been and still are GM FFB 35 and on wheel FFB 75.... so yes i run High FFB on the wheel but low in game FFB...But as you stated in the quote "but due to some programming glitch, you're not actually running it at 35" so yes Exactly we don't know if this is a Glitch that will be patched in 10.0 because there has been No confirmation that the Auto feature is active or working in PS4 Pcars.... however it would be a cool feature if this could be confirmed by SMS that the Fanatec wheel FFB overrides the GM FFB... For all we know its a Glitch that will be patched with 10.0 the patches keep coming so we cant assume anything.



you can use the V2/V1 on wheel FOR setting to reduce the FFB effects strength at the wheel .... I'm not sure if this reduces Dynamic range... it shouldn't because the wheel is still getting full signal its just not boosting the FFB signal to Max power if you reduce it... you can also increase the signal +5.... Max FOR is 150.

The FOR on Fanatec wheels reduces forces! If you set it to 60, forces above 60 will be reduced but forces below 60 will not.
This is what I've found through testing because the game ffb wouldn't change with my adjustments 1-100. It may not be accurate but this is what it feels like.

So I think this should be set to 100. But with the game not letting us adjust the in game ffb things get very strong.

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 01:57
The FOR on Fanatec wheels reduces forces! If you set it to 60, forces above 60 will be reduced but forces below 60 will not.
This is what I've found through testing because the game ffb wouldn't change with my adjustments 1-100. It may not be accurate but this is what it feels like.

So I think this should be set to 100. But with the game not letting us adjust the in game ffb things get very strong.

I dont think you lose dynamic range... The FFB signal is coming pure from the game when it gets to the wheel its just not being boosted to Max FFB value that wheel can produce.

poirqc
03-03-2016, 01:58
Actually at 1.0 it still clips. Only on really strong forces that aren't all that important but still there. So for most id say 1.0 is a safe starting place. Problem is if you like a heavy wheel which you obviously do at 75 you cant go lower on gain. Which is fine if that's what you like but you are sacrificing some detail for it. Looks like we are finally getting some really good setups for ffb.:D I wonder how many are clipping really bad and don't realize it? We are at tf 75 and sg at about 1.0 and it still shows it. I see what happens now with it and why you don't see it. As it hits the top of the hud it just gets chopped off. Not necessarily an obvious flat line. When you start lowering it all of the sudden its oooooh theres the top of the waveform and all the detail comes back from the ffb instead of just ffb noise. Its actually really amazing how good the ffb can be.

I have a small anecdote. I remember when a good friend of mine, who's not into sim racing, once told me that he liked the Default FFB(on PC, the Default FFB, GMFFB 100, SG 3 clips almost instantly, it's awefull, from my PoV) better than the setup i suggested to him. A setup i fined tuned for a couple months, since the release of the game! I gotta say i was somewhat pissed at first. I mean, all this time spent messing with the FFB when he liked something more that is only 1 click away, in the menus! :D

It turned out he played much Bugbear Next Car Game(Wreckfest, i think), a game where there's almost only understeering feeling(didn't played much tho), witch was mostly missing from my FFB tune. Another thing was that he expected and wanted to wrestle the wheel... In the end, it was all good because he made me look at the FFB from another angle and it payed off.

But this things leads to tennebaum's point...


i think you just figured out a remarkable issue that might change the way we look at the wheel check results... it makes a fundamental difference if you give the wheel resistance (by gabbing it) or just feed full 100 FFB to the whel, while the wheel doesn't have to overcome a counterforce (you counteracting the FFB)... i know you know... what i'm aiming at... ;-) skoader's turn now... or Dullivans, but i don't know nothing about him.

There's a difference between drivers. Someone will hold the steering pretty tightly where the next guy will hold the wheel lightly. This means a firm grip may need more RAG where a light grip could run with less RAG. I don't know, i'm just thinking out loud.

It's been a couple days since i did the wheelcheck test, while holding the wheel. I don't precisely remember what i did. But when i run FCM, to compute the data, it give pretty different results!

Free moving:
SK 0,51
SR 0,51
DRR 0,14

Holding:
SK 0,74
SR 0,06
DRR 0,13

I didn't have time to drive the holding values. I only messed with the test.

I may get back at it later on, when the ski seasons is over.

Woffu
03-03-2016, 02:32
Thanks Ill try and get them up tonight. Havent really changed much though. Just turn sg down to 1.0 and raise your ffb some. You may want to drop the sr to about .20.
Give it a try and let me know what you think. It will feel a little different but it has a lot more detail to it this way I think.
Cheers man I'll give them a go when I get home tonight and let you know how i go. Thanks

morpwr
03-03-2016, 02:57
I have a small anecdote. I remember when a good friend of mine, who's not into sim racing, once told me that he liked the Default FFB(on PC, the Default FFB, GMFFB 100, SG 3 clips almost instantly, it's awefull, from my PoV) better than the setup i suggested to him. A setup i fined tuned for a couple months, since the release of the game! I gotta say i was somewhat pissed at first. I mean, all this time spent messing with the FFB when he liked something more that is only 1 click away, in the menus! :D

It turned out he played much Bugbear Next Car Game(Wreckfest, i think), a game where there's almost only understeering feeling(didn't played much tho), witch was mostly missing from my FFB tune. Another thing was that he expected and wanted to wrestle the wheel... In the end, it was all good because he made me look at the FFB from another angle and it payed off.

But this things leads to tennebaum's point...



There's a difference between drivers. Someone will hold the steering pretty tightly where the next guy will hold the wheel lightly. This means a firm grip may need more RAG where a light grip could run with less RAG. I don't know, i'm just thinking out loud.

It's been a couple days since i did the wheelcheck test, while holding the wheel. I don't precisely remember what i did. But when i run FCM, to compute the data, it give pretty different results!

Free moving:
SK 0,51
SR 0,51
DRR 0,14

Holding:
SK 0,74
SR 0,06
DRR 0,13

I didn't have time to drive the holding values. I only messed with the test.

I may get back at it later on, when the ski seasons is over.

Id buy into the grip thing looking at the difference between what I run and what grimey runs. Definitely not a deathgrip driver here but id assume grimey gets some white knuncles looking at his ffb setting.lol Its not a bad thing grimey:D

Haiden
03-03-2016, 03:31
On another note... my writing group met tonight. We only had two submissions, and I was hoping we'd finish early, so I could get some laps in before bed. We finished an hour and a half early, and I was stoked. I was cleaning up, putting a wine glass away, when my girlfriend came into the kitchen. I turned to say hi, missed the shelf, and shoved the glass into the cabinet and cut the crap out of finger. Now, I'm sitting here with a makeshift pressure bandage, waiting for the bleeding to stop, so I can wash it, bandage it, AND get some laps in! I'm on mission and will not be deterred...LOL :eagerness:

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 03:59
If your FFB is set up properly it shouldn't matter if you grip the wheel lightly or deathgrip. I tend to hold the wheel very lightly, but there is still a lot of force involved. I can deathgrip and it still works great. I do think that certain driving styles might work better with slightly different settings, but not grip tightness.

gotdirt410sprintcar
03-03-2016, 04:01
Well that sounds like a SIM RACER to me!!! Race on my friend hope you heal up to


And yeah I agree with krus control to each is own, I only grip the wheel in the turns and let the wheel do its thing in my hands in the straights

Fight-Test
03-03-2016, 05:21
If your FFB is set up properly it shouldn't matter if you grip the wheel lightly or deathgrip. I tend to hold the wheel very lightly, but there is still a lot of force involved. I can deathgrip and it still works great. I do think that certain driving styles might work better with slightly different settings, but not grip tightness.

when you grip the wheel hard you pull it to you naturally and this is a huge no no. If anything, if you need to put force on the wheel then you should push with your palms but this would make you not be able to keep your finger tips in contact with wheel which is were you get alot of small sensations.

On the way to work in the morning you guys try this. Grip the wheel real hard with both hands and drive a bit, you can even pull on the wheel more than you naturally are and then turn the wheel. Its all twitchy and notchy and you lose alot of road feel. Now push on the wheel with your palms away from you and drive and the car becomes so easy to drive in comparison. They tell you to do this to break the habit of gripping the wheel tight. Proper grip will improve your smoothness with leads to more speed. also anytime your gripping the wheel hard your wasting energy. soft and easy contact with the wheel even when ripping it up is key to getting all the feedback from car and wheel.

gotdirt410sprintcar
03-03-2016, 06:00
I just tried this and it ain't easy its hard to not pull back , but i can practice every time i drive it might start to feel natural and it seem to feel good for the FFB IMO

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 06:22
when you grip the wheel hard you pull it to you naturally and this is a huge no no. If anything, if you need to put force on the wheel then you should push with your palms but this would make you not be able to keep your finger tips in contact with wheel which is were you get alot of small sensations.

On the way to work in the morning you guys try this. Grip the wheel real hard with both hands and drive a bit, you can even pull on the wheel more than you naturally are and then turn the wheel. Its all twitchy and notchy and you lose alot of road feel. Now push on the wheel with your palms away from you and drive and the car becomes so easy to drive in comparison. They tell you to do this to break the habit of gripping the wheel tight. Proper grip will improve your smoothness with leads to more speed. also anytime your gripping the wheel hard your wasting energy. soft and easy contact with the wheel even when ripping it up is key to getting all the feedback from car and wheel.

You're talking about gripping the wheel wrong, not tightly. Pushing or pulling on the wheel are both wrong. And neither equals gripping the wheel tightly or loosely. You should grab the wheel as lightly as possible, but a lot of people struggle with it. The solution isn't to push or pull on the wheel. Maybe this helped you, but everybody is different. This is not good generic advice except that soft and easy contact is best.

tennenbaum
03-03-2016, 07:02
On another note... my writing group met tonight. We only had two submissions, and I was hoping we'd finish early, so I could get some laps in before bed. We finished an hour and a half early, and I was stoked. I was cleaning up, putting a wine glass away, when my girlfriend came into the kitchen. I turned to say hi, missed the shelf, and shoved the glass into the cabinet and cut the crap out of finger. Now, I'm sitting here with a makeshift pressure bandage, waiting for the bleeding to stop, so I can wash it, bandage it, AND get some laps in! I'm on mission and will not be deterred...LOL :eagerness:

...she must be looking an absolute knockout. lol

Bunga412
03-03-2016, 09:08
If anyone what to drive like the stig. Soft hands.... He said so in his how to drive book. I'm a convert.

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 12:09
You're talking about gripping the wheel wrong, not tightly. Pushing or pulling on the wheel are both wrong. And neither equals gripping the wheel tightly or loosely. You should grab the wheel as lightly as possible, but a lot of people struggle with it. The solution isn't to push or pull on the wheel. Maybe this helped you, but everybody is different. This is not good generic advice except that soft and easy contact is best.

Just to join in on the conversation. I've always been told in Racing training academies and general chat in the pit lane, and been doing it myself in racing Karts/Cars in my racing career, that yes you should hold the wheel lightly, but strong enough so you're in control, but when it comes to being fast and finding all the last .xxx seconds in your lap times, you should never Pull on the wheel, because that's when you start overdriving a kart/car or whatever you are racing, which leads to overheating tires and loosing time in general. In the racing world, it's known to push the wheel, so let's say if it's a Right hand corner - you should push your left arm up, instead of pulling right arm down, and vice-versa.. I remember when I first started racing karts at 8 years old, Pushing instead of Pulling wheel was one of my first lessons from my coach at the time. And believe me it makes you quicker. The natural human feeling is usually pulling the wheel down, but remember all racing drivers push the wheel up and not pull it down.

Of course everyone has its own driving style, but in Sim racing I always look for realism and I use the same driving techniques on pCars that I use on the track in RL.

People who never noticed if you are pushing or pulling on the wheel, try it and see what you think. Does it make you faster? Do you feel more detail in the wheel? OR no change at all? :)

BigDad
03-03-2016, 12:16
You're talking about gripping the wheel wrong, not tightly. Pushing or pulling on the wheel are both wrong. And neither equals gripping the wheel tightly or loosely. You should grab the wheel as lightly as possible, but a lot of people struggle with it. The solution isn't to push or pull on the wheel. Maybe this helped you, but everybody is different. This is not good generic advice except that soft and easy contact is best.
Flight-Test suggests some techniques and you say they are "wrong" . Turning a wheel by pulling with soft fingers and pushing with soft palms .
This sounds like better advice than " you are wrong ".
Have you got anything more constructive to add ?

Bunga412
03-03-2016, 12:22
May come in handy with the conversation. http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_steering

Haiden
03-03-2016, 12:24
...she must be looking an absolute knockout. lol

Well, it was late evening, and she lounging, but she's always cute. She threw on some shoes and cleaned the glass up for me while I tended to my hand, though. Cute and priceless. :)


when you grip the wheel hard you pull it to you naturally and this is a huge no no. If anything, if you need to put force on the wheel then you should push with your palms but this would make you not be able to keep your finger tips in contact with wheel which is were you get alot of small sensations.

On the way to work in the morning you guys try this. Grip the wheel real hard with both hands and drive a bit, you can even pull on the wheel more than you naturally are and then turn the wheel. Its all twitchy and notchy and you lose alot of road feel. Now push on the wheel with your palms away from you and drive and the car becomes so easy to drive in comparison. They tell you to do this to break the habit of gripping the wheel tight. Proper grip will improve your smoothness with leads to more speed. also anytime your gripping the wheel hard your wasting energy. soft and easy contact with the wheel even when ripping it up is key to getting all the feedback from car and wheel.


If anyone what to drive like the stig. Soft hands.... He said so in his how to drive book. I'm a convert.

I've always heard the same from professional drivers. It's also pretty much the same for most things that require precision--painting, drawing, surgery, flying, etc. Tight muscles also offer less dexterity.

Simple test: Make a fist and tighten the muscles in your arm, then move your hand back and forth, left to right. Then relax your fist and arm and do it again. You can totally feel the difference--like you have more steps/resolution with the lighter grip. :)

Bunga412
03-03-2016, 12:32
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=79wSPe2kmNQ
This is the video grimey put up. It's not strong ffb by the wheel, but soft wheel inputs by the driver. You can see his hands and arms are relaxed. This is my 2 bobs. Goodnight all.

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 12:37
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=79wSPe2kmNQ
This is the video grimey put up. It's not strong ffb by the wheel, but soft wheel inputs by the driver. You can see his hands and arms are relaxed. This is my 2 bobs. Goodnight all.


Exactly you get it:yes: The wheel looks Medium to firm to keep you from constantly over steering... the right wheel weight is very important to keep your steering inputs precise.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 13:52
Flight-Test suggests some techniques and you say they are "wrong" . Turning a wheel by pulling with soft fingers and pushing with soft palms .
This sounds like better advice than " you are wrong ".
Have you got anything more constructive to add ?

If somebody is pulling on the wheel and you tell them "push on the wheel" that's bad advice. You're essentially telling them to do the same thing that is the problem. If you want to hold the wheel lightly, hold the wheel lightly. The lighter and more gentle you are with your inputs, the less strain your putting on the car's tires, brakes, suspension, and engine. If you use lighter inputs not only will your stints last longer and your consistency rise, but your overall laptime will get better as well. It's pretty simple. And pushing or pulling on the wheel are just plain wrong. Don't tell people to do that. You turn the wheel. And IRL you support some of your weight with it. But pushing or pulling are bad habits that should be weeded out. Honestly there is nothing wrong or non constructive about calling somebody out on crap advice.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 14:14
Just to join in on the conversation. I've always been told in Racing training academies and general chat in the pit lane, and been doing it myself in racing Karts/Cars in my racing career, that yes you should hold the wheel lightly, but strong enough so you're in control, but when it comes to being fast and finding all the last .xxx seconds in your lap times, you should never Pull on the wheel, because that's when you start overdriving a kart/car or whatever you are racing, which leads to overheating tires and loosing time in general. In the racing world, it's known to push the wheel, so let's say if it's a Right hand corner - you should push your left arm up, instead of pulling right arm down, and vice-versa.. I remember when I first started racing karts at 8 years old, Pushing instead of Pulling wheel was one of my first lessons from my coach at the time. And believe me it makes you quicker. The natural human feeling is usually pulling the wheel down, but remember all racing drivers push the wheel up and not pull it down.

Of course everyone has its own driving style, but in Sim racing I always look for realism and I use the same driving techniques on pCars that I use on the track in RL.

People who never noticed if you are pushing or pulling on the wheel, try it and see what you think. Does it make you faster? Do you feel more detail in the wheel? OR no change at all? :)

You're talking about a different type of technique. You almost always want to push the wheel around it's axis, but not push or pull on the wheel longitudinally. And if you're giving somebody the advice it's pretty important to specify. I think of it like I'm pushing the front end in that direction or that I'm pushing the rear out. And it also has to do with hand position and hand use (as in left hand or right hand). It is typically a more minimal and better in general input to push the wheel in with the outside hand rather than pull out with the inside hand, which is a bit counter intuitive when you think about it. But to just say "push the wheel" is not enough if you're not specifying these details and will cause some people to push on their wheels stupidly.

BigDad
03-03-2016, 14:17
How do you turn something without some sort of push or pull movement ? No matter how light your input , it is still push or pull . Is it not ?

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 14:17
If anyone what to drive like the stig. Soft hands.... He said so in his how to drive book. I'm a convert.

When i used to race with a pad i used to wash My hands with pummic hand scrub so my hands would be more sensitive

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 14:18
If somebody is pulling on the wheel and you tell them "push on the wheel" that's bad advice. You're essentially telling them to do the same thing that is the problem. If you want to hold the wheel lightly, hold the wheel lightly. The lighter and more gentle you are with your inputs, the less strain your putting on the car's tires, brakes, suspension, and engine. If you use lighter inputs not only will your stints last longer and your consistency rise, but your overall laptime will get better as well. It's pretty simple. And pushing or pulling on the wheel are just plain wrong. Don't tell people to do that. You turn the wheel. And IRL you support some of your weight with it. But pushing or pulling are bad habits that should be weeded out. Honestly there is nothing wrong or non constructive about calling somebody out on crap advice.

Not sure I can agree with you, or you and me understand pushing and pulling in different ways. What I mean by Pulling, is not actually moving your arm forward when you drive. You say ''you turn the wheel''. Yes correct. But how do you do that? You have to hands one at 9 o'clock and the other one at 3 o'clock. So your arms can only go up or down when you start turning. So when I say pulling, that means one of you hands going up. So let's say in the right hand corner - your LEFT arm should be dominating the applied turning force to the wheel - going up -> pulling, and vice-versa for the left hand corner. Overdriving a car would happen when, in right hand corner and you would be pulling your right arm down and dominating your wheel with that arm. It does not mean you are driving incorrectly, but in most cases you would overdriving a car, putting more strain on tires, suspension etc...

And yes, it's right that steering wheel should be held lightly, and driving should be smooth.

I'm sure many people heard and know - Smooth is Fast :)

BigDad
03-03-2016, 14:19
Anyway my laptimes are good and consistent and my FFB feels great , hope your's are to.

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 14:20
You're talking about a different type of technique. You almost always want to push the wheel around it's axis, but not push or pull on the wheel longitudinally. And if you're giving somebody the advice it's pretty important to specify. I think of it like I'm pushing the front end in that direction or that I'm pushing the rear out. And it also has to do with hand position and hand use (as in left hand or right hand). It is typically a more minimal and better in general input to push the wheel in with the outside hand rather than pull out with the inside hand, which is a bit counter intuitive when you think about it. But to just say "push the wheel" is not enough if you're not specifying these details and will cause some people to push on their wheels stupidly.

Agree here with you. My english isn't perfect, so excuse me if I don't express myself clearly. "push the wheel in with the outside hand rather than pull out with the inside hand" - this sums up what I meant. :)

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 14:21
Not sure I can agree with you, or you and me understand pushing and pulling in different ways. What I mean by Pulling, is not actually moving your arm forward when you drive. You say ''you turn the wheel''. Yes correct. But how do you do that? You have to hands one at 9 o'clock and the other one at 3 o'clock. So your arms can only go up or down when you start turning. So when I say pulling, that means one of you hands going up. So let's say in the right hand corner - your LEFT arm should be dominating the applied turning force to the wheel - going up -> pulling, and vice-versa for the left hand corner. Overdriving a car would happen when, in right hand corner and you would be pulling your right arm down and dominating your wheel with that arm. It does not mean you are driving incorrectly, but in most cases you would overdriving a car, putting more strain on tires, suspension etc...

And yes, it's right that steering wheel should be held lightly, and driving should be smooth.

I'm sure many people heard and know - Smooth is Fast :)

This is exactly what I was saying in my second post responding to you. Flight test was saying push the wheel away with your palms. Different thing completely. And what you are describing is very, very good advice.

BigDad
03-03-2016, 14:21
When i used to race with a pad i used to wash My hands with pummic hand scrub so my hands would be more sensitive
lol

BigDad
03-03-2016, 14:23
This is exactly what I was saying in my second post responding to you. Flight test was saying push the wheel away with your palms. Different thing completely.
WTF
How do you push it away ? Only up ,

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 14:27
WTF
How do you push it away ? Only up ,

It sounds more complex than it is. if you're entering a right hand turn, then support your turn in with mainly your left hand. Try turning in to a right hander with your right hand one handed, it's awkward. That's all we're saying. Most people haven't gotten their hand positions down yet and I think that's a more important step. And it's simple, keep your hands in the same place.

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 14:29
I also done more testing yesterday night, around the debate of FF > TF and FF < TF.

For my liking and the feedback I get from the wheel - I ended up with FF < TF. I would't say it's much different like day & night, but I feel more feedback and better drivability in general.

BigDad
03-03-2016, 14:31
GDog , i think your thread should be renamed "Driving techniques with Krus Control " roflmao

Haiden
03-03-2016, 14:31
This is exactly what I was saying in my second post responding to you. Flight test was saying push the wheel away with your palms. Different thing completely. And what you are describing is very, very good advice.

Actually, I don't think Flight-Test was advising people to push the wheel as a form of good technique. He was saying that, if you're a puller, try comparing the difference with pushing and pulling to see which is better.


when you grip the wheel hard you pull it to you naturally and this is a huge no no. If anything, if you need to put force on the wheel then you should push with your palms but this would make you not be able to keep your finger tips in contact with wheel which is were you get alot of small sensations.

He's obviously doesn't think this is a good technique. I think we're all on the same page, as far as grip is concerned.


WTF
How do you push it away ? Only up ,

More clearly stated: In a left hand turn, you push the wheel around it's rotation with your right hand, instead of pulling it down with your left. :)

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 14:33
I also done more testing yesterday night, around the debate of FF > TF and FF < TF.

For my liking and the feedback I get from the wheel - I ended up with FF < TF. I would't say it's much different like day & night, but I feel more feedback and better drivability in general.

Tire force is different from steering gain and FF master. Tire force affects wheel weight where as the other two are gain controls, like a volume knob. Tire force is a lot more complicated than that.

BigDad
03-03-2016, 14:40
Tire force is different from steering gain and FF master. Tire force affects wheel weight where as the other two are gain controls, like a volume knob. Tire force is a lot more complicated than that.
Are you a comedian ?

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 14:42
Are you a comedian ?

Do you think this isn't the case?

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 14:50
Tire force is different from steering gain and FF master. Tire force affects wheel weight where as the other two are gain controls, like a volume knob. Tire force is a lot more complicated than that.

Yeah I kinda get that.

It's just people suggested that you should either run higher TF or higher FF. So for about a month I was running around 60 for TF and around 90 for FF. But now I changed to 100 TF and around 60 FF. I prefer this way. My globals are a mix of JS and my own preference and I also run JS in car settings.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 14:55
Yeah I kinda get that.

It's just people suggested that you should either run higher TF or higher FF. So for about a month I was running around 60 for TF and around 90 for FF. But now I changed to 100 TF and around 60 FF. I prefer this way. My globals are a mix of JS and my own preference and I also run JS in car settings.

Whether you run one higher than the other has nothing to do with a good feel. Getting a good feel is about balancing gain and using the signal chain properly. In audio, it's considered good practice to have lower levels earlier in the signal chain, and higher levels later. But what I've found is that this does not apply to PCARS FFB. Thinking about it like this will just cause headaches. What feels good feels good. There is no rule or ratio that you have to follow.

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 15:02
Whether you run one higher than the other has nothing to do with a good feel. Getting a good feel is about balancing gain and using the signal chain properly. In audio, it's considered good practice to have lower levels earlier in the signal chain, and higher levels later. But what I've found is that this does not apply to PCARS FFB. Thinking about it like this will just cause headaches. What feels good feels good. There is no rule or ratio that you have to follow.

Yeah I agree, it's all down to the feeling at the end of the day. As I said before, I always look for realism. I play games for fun and a bit of competition, and RL is where I'm competitive. So in the game I don't mind if I'm .100 slower, as long as it feels real to me or at least close to it. At the moment, the setting I have, I'm really happy. I'm sure I could improve a little bit more, but after all of these months I'm tired of fine tuning, just want to race :)

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 15:04
Yeah I agree, it's all down to the feeling at the end of the day. As I said before, I always look for realism. I play games for fun and a bit of competition, and RL is where I'm competitive. So in the game I don't mind if I'm .100 slower, as long as it feels real to me or at least close to it. At the moment, the setting I have, I'm really happy. I'm sure I could improve a little bit more, but after all of these months I'm tired of fine tuning, just want to race :)

Yeah the FFB system can be exhausting. But then you get it right and it's worth all the effort.

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 15:08
Yeah the FFB system can be exhausting. But then you get it right and it's worth all the effort.

Yep! I think I'm almost at that stage now, where not much more can be improved. And it's rewarding, when you can't stop doing lap after lap at Nordschleife :)

Fight-Test
03-03-2016, 15:24
Actually, I don't think Flight-Test was advising people to push the wheel as a form of good technique. He was saying that, if you're a puller, try comparing the difference with pushing and pulling to see which is better.

Pushing is the lessor of two evils and shows you how much feel when pulling vsm pushing. Also you will wear your arms out when pulling. Your supposed to be using shoulders and back to drive. You can't do that if your arms are pulling or pushing.

He's obviously doesn't think this is a good technique. I think we're all on the same page, as far as grip is concerned.



More clearly stated: In a left hand turn, you push the wheel around it's rotation with your right hand, instead of pulling it down with your left. :)

Exactly. Pulling is way worse than pushing and just to prove that is why I said push instead of pull just to show you the diffetence.

You want to hold the wheel very soft l. Very gentle.

Pushing on the wheel is what a driving instructor will tell a racer that is pulling just to show the error in their way.

The lessor of two evils is to push. Both terrible because you are using arm strength and that will mute the road feel. Arms lose and relaxed. You use your back and shoulders to drive.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 15:36
Exactly. Pulling is way worse than pushing and just to prove that is why I said push instead of pull just to show you the diffetence.

You want to hold the wheel very soft l. Very gentle.

Pushing on the wheel is what a driving instructor will tell a racer that is pulling just to show the error in their way.

The lessor of two evils is to push. Both terrible because you are using arm strength and that will mute the road feel. Arms lose and relaxed. You use your back and shoulders to drive.

I actually used to have a problem pushing the wheel out with my thumbs and overdriving. The way I fixed it for me was I weeded out the intensity in my driving, as it was only happening in intense moments. I don't doubt that pushing helped you, but it can be just as big of a problem as pulling. I think the underlying issue is drivers get this intensity when they race and will try to strong arm the car in certain ways. The end result should be the same for all though, and I think we're all in agreement here: light and gentle is best.

Edit: also "don't use your shoulders or back to drive" is excellent advice and most people don't realize how far it goes. Using your back or leaning into your steering will probably make you slower.

Edit 2: I misread this. Don't use your back to drive. Leaning into your steering is generally not the best thing. you want to be able to move or change direction as fast as you can. So you move as little of your body as you can. Do use your shoulders though. I'm just now realizing this advice might not make sense to some people.

Fight-Test
03-03-2016, 15:40
I actually used to have a problem pushing the wheel out with my thumbs and overdriving. The way I fixed it for me was I weeded out the intensity in my driving, as it was only happening in intense moments. I don't doubt that pushing helped you, but it can be just as big of a problem as pulling. I think the underlying issue is drivers get this intensity when they race and will try to strong arm the car in certain ways. The end result should be the same for all though, and I think we're all in agreement here: light and gentle is best.

Pulling is the natural instinct and what happens when u grip the wheel. No one pushes the wheel naturally. It's just doing the opposite of what's natural to see the error in your ways. Nothing more. I'm not saying drive like that. I'm saying pulling is very wrong and seeing is be living so push on the wheel and after a corner or 2 you will go oh. I see now.

Now that u see the reality of your error you can begin to relax and use proper technique.

Thumbs are big no no too. You don't want you thumb on wheel to help stabilize or control. It's just a guide finger. I'll try to take some pics later.

Edit: Here's a good little read. http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_steering

Fight-Test
03-03-2016, 15:45
We are saying same thing. It's good to be able to feel the issue and understand it yourself by feeling the wheel than just being told what to do or read it. The pushing thing is just a lesson to show that.

Haiden
03-03-2016, 15:49
Whether you run one higher than the other has nothing to do with a good feel. Getting a good feel is about balancing gain and using the signal chain properly. In audio, it's considered good practice to have lower levels earlier in the signal chain, and higher levels later. But what I've found is that this does not apply to PCARS FFB. Thinking about it like this will just cause headaches. What feels good feels good. There is no rule or ratio that you have to follow.

I think we need to start listening/reading more closely. All he said was that it was his preference. The FF/TF balance may not be required to get a good FFB feel, but it does change the way the wheel feels. So, it is a preference factor. Which is the case with most of this. FFB is more about personal preference, than it is right or wrong.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 15:53
I think we need to start listening/reading more closely. All he said was that it was his preference. The FF/TF balance may not be required to get a good FFB feel, but it does change the way the wheel feels. So, it is a preference factor. Which is the case with most of this. FFB is more about personal preference, than it is right or wrong.

The thing is that the TF-FF ratio can be affected by other things like per car setup or steering gain or a number of things. I'm just saying there is no golden rule that produces better FFB. I don't think I missed anything.

Haiden
03-03-2016, 16:08
Also, I was thinking about dynamic range this morning, and I think there are two sides to this coin--true/actual range and perceived ranged. And I think it's important to understand the difference.

Not all scales and adjustments will affect the true dynamic range. FF, for example is passive when it comes to dynamic range. It's applied to the final calculated output, and only affects the strength. But when it comes to perceived dynamic range (what you actually feel in the wheel), it's a different story AND that can be different for everyone, because tactile sense varies from person to person. ALL scales and adjustments have the potential to impact the perceived dynamic range. Take the stereo analogy for example. You can expertly tune the sound, but as you decrease the volume, certain frequencies become harder to hear, and the range of what can be heard differs from person to person. Some people can hear subtle sounds at low volumes, others need to turn it up more to hear the same things. The perceived dynamic range of FFB works basically the same way. FF may be passive, but if you turn it down far enough, eventually some of the weaker forces are going to fade to the point of not being able to be felt. Technically, the full range is still there, as the telemetry will show (which is why I think of it as the true dynamic range). But that doesn't mean you can feel it. As with sound, some people will be able to feel/perceive more than others at low volumes.

I think the difference between true and perceived dynamic range is what causes a lot of confusion when we talk about the scales and adjustments that affect output strength. Online, we discuss and collaborate in true terms, but offline, we can only judge results according to what we perceive. Both range concepts are important when tuning. But, as we all know, perception is reality. :)

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 16:13
Also it's important to keep in mind that more dynamic range isn't exactly better. Dynamic range can give life to the feel. But too much dynamic range can be a problem and put some forces outside the useful range.

Haiden
03-03-2016, 16:13
The thing is that the TF-FF ratio can be affected by other things like per car setup or steering gain or a number of things. I'm just saying there is no golden rule that produces better FFB. I don't think I missed anything.

True. But if you leave all other settings fixed, and only test the different balances of FF/TF, you will get a different feel the further these values differ from each other. FF/TF at 80/70 might feel similar to 70/80, but I guarantee you 100/75 won't feel remotely close to 75/100. All he was trying to say was that he prefers FF<TF. There was no right or wrong about it. Nothing to debate. He was just sharing his personal preference, which is what we do in this thread. When it comes to FFB, rules, definitions, and theories are debatable. Preferences aren't. :)


Edit:

Also it's important to keep in mind that more dynamic range isn't exactly better. Dynamic range can give life to the feel. But too much dynamic range can be a problem and put some forces outside the useful range.

I agree 100%.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 16:18
True. But if you leave all other settings fixed, and only test the different balances of FF/TF, you will get a different feel the further these values differ from each other. FF/TF at 80/70 might feel similar to 70/80, but I guarantee you 100/75 won't feel remotely close to 75/100. All he was trying to say was that he prefers FF<TF. There was no right or wrong about it. Nothing to debate. He was just sharing his personal preference, which is what we do in this thread. When it comes to FFB, rules, definitions, and theories are debatable. Preferences aren't. :)

I was never debating it. Just pointing out that the ratio isn't all that important.

poirqc
03-03-2016, 16:21
I actually used to have a problem pushing the wheel out with my thumbs and overdriving. The way I fixed it for me was I weeded out the intensity in my driving, as it was only happening in intense moments. I don't doubt that pushing helped you, but it can be just as big of a problem as pulling. I think the underlying issue is drivers get this intensity when they race and will try to strong arm the car in certain ways. The end result should be the same for all though, and I think we're all in agreement here: light and gentle is best.

Edit: also "don't use your shoulders or back to drive" is excellent advice and most people don't realize how far it goes. Using your back or leaning into your steering will probably make you slower.

Edit 2: I misread this. Don't use your back to drive. Leaning into your steering is generally not the best thing. you want to be able to move or change direction as fast as you can. So you move as little of your body as you can. Do use your shoulders though. I'm just now realizing this advice might not make sense to some people.

When i went karting fairly often, i did that for a while. When i started to actually lean(i wasn't actually leaning, i just didn't fight the G-Forces) the opposite way, I was able to steer and feel the rear sliding better. It's a big factor that made me drive faster. I drove with my body instead of my hands.

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 16:27
When i went karting fairly often, i did that for a while. When i started to actually lean(i wasn't actually leaning, i just didn't fight the G-Forces) the opposite way, I was able to steer and feel the rear sliding better. It's a big factor that made me drive faster. I drove with my body instead of my hands.

Karting is an exception to this. In karting you can control the karts momentum with your body and do lost of clever stuff by shifting your weight around. So you actually can gain in some instances by leaning in. But for sim racing especially you don't want to move parts of your body that you don't have to.

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 16:29
I also done more testing yesterday night, around the debate of FF > TF and FF < TF.

For my liking and the feedback I get from the wheel - I ended up with FF < TF. I would't say it's much different like day & night, but I feel more feedback and better drivability in general.

My findings also... you get More subtle Feel like this.... The stronger forces you will feel any way.... its all about bringing out the smaller more subtle feel in the FFB.

Koza_Nostra
03-03-2016, 16:42
My findings also... you get More subtle Feel like this.... The stronger forces you will feel any way.... its all about bringing out the smaller more subtle feel in the FFB.

Yes exactly that - "you get more subtle feel". I'm going to try and make a couple of videos tonight with my telemetry and upload it for you guys to give your opinion/feedback on my telemetry graph.

Quick and probably lame question, but how do you record a video on XB1. I did't see the option in the Replay to save the video..? Is it through 'Game DVR'?

and then access video through www.xboxdvr.com?

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 17:02
Yes exactly that - "you get more subtle feel". I'm going to try and make a couple of videos tonight with my telemetry and upload it for you guys to give your opinion/feedback on my telemetry graph.

Quick and probably lame question, but how do you record a video on XB1. I did't see the option in the Replay to save the video..? Is it through 'Game DVR'?

and then access video through www.xboxdvr.com?

I think so... im not sure on XB1...I spend most of the time on PS4...i dunno even how to navagate the XB1 menu good when i turn My XB1 on any more...LOL

I did make a short Vid on XB1 and uploaded it to the 1drive and shared it like that.

lmntr
03-03-2016, 17:38
First thing I would do is find the right Scoop settings (Knee and Reduction). You can use a tool or take the easier route and just check the threads to see what others with your wheel are using and try those. :) But get the Scoop set first, before toying with other things. It'll save you a lot of time.

Also... what Chicago suburb are you from/at? I live in Chicago now, but grew up in the south suburbs--Chicago Heights/Park Forest. :)

I am in the Oaklawn area. Thanks for your suggestions; just the thought of going through all the posts gave me a headache! The search feature in this forum does not help either; it seems to direct you to the whole thread instead of specific posts, unless I am doing something wrong!:distress:

Krus Control
03-03-2016, 17:40
I am in the Oaklawn area. Thanks for your suggestions; just the thought of going through all the posts gave me a headache! The search feature in this forum does not help either; it seems to direct you to the whole thread instead of specific posts, unless I am doing something wrong!:distress:

Try searching in this site from Google. I find this to be much more effective.

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 20:45
Congrats to All that post and share Ideas!!!! We are 200+ pages and Not 1 argument!!! Maybe a few Debates and Strongly expressed opinions but Not 1 Argument that ended up sour or making the thread sour:livid: Kudos and Cheers to All:applause:

Haiden
03-03-2016, 21:36
Congrats to All that post and share Ideas!!!! We are 200+ pages and Not 1 argument!!! Maybe a few Debates and Strongly expressed opinions but Not 1 Argument that ended up sour or making the thread sour:livid: Kudos and Cheers to All:applause:

229034

tennenbaum
03-03-2016, 22:14
Actually, I don't think Flight-Test was advising people to push the wheel as a form of good technique. He was saying that, if you're a puller, try comparing the difference with pushing and pulling to see which is better.



He's obviously doesn't think this is a good technique. I think we're all on the same page, as far as grip is concerned.



More clearly stated: In a left hand turn, you push the wheel around it's rotation with your right hand, instead of pulling it down with your left. :)

nicely explained!

skoader
03-03-2016, 22:16
It's been a couple days since i did the wheelcheck test, while holding the wheel. I don't precisely remember what i did. But when i run FCM, to compute the data, it give pretty different results!

Free moving:
SK 0,51
SR 0,51
DRR 0,14

Holding:
SK 0,74
SR 0,06
DRR 0,13


Ack! If you hold onto the wheel the resulting data will likely be all over the place. The test itself just isn't designed to work this way.

Edit : Wow this thread is moving quickly these days.

Haiden
03-03-2016, 22:31
Ack! If you hold onto the wheel the resulting data will likely be all over the place. The test itself just isn't designed to work this way.

Edit : Wow this thread is moving quickly these days.

That's what I was thinking. I admit, I've never used the tool. But the force applied wouldn't be constant/fixed, which would seem problematic.

tennenbaum
03-03-2016, 22:31
Whether you run one higher than the other has nothing to do with a good feel. Getting a good feel is about balancing gain and using the signal chain properly. In audio, it's considered good practice to have lower levels earlier in the signal chain, and higher levels later. But what I've found is that this does not apply to PCARS FFB. Thinking about it like this will just cause headaches. What feels good feels good. There is no rule or ratio that you have to follow.

hhm, never heard that before... lower signals earlier. must have missed something in theory and practice... don't mind, you're relativing the importance of such theories by yourself... what feels good feels good. ... in the night it's colder than outside... ;) i almost forgot... between TF and FF there are one or two non- linear operating modules. ...but why burdening the good feel with such calamities... the force is with all of us :cool:

GrimeyDog
03-03-2016, 22:39
How is it an assumption? You can test it and duplicate the result. Set your wheel to 75 or 100, and then test the GM FFB at 0, 35, 50, 75, and 100. There is no difference in wheel strength at any of those settings, as long as the wheel is set to a fixed value. Now, set the wheel FF to 0 and the GM FFB to 100, and there's no strength in the wheel. That's not an assumption. The wheel is overriding the game. Is it one-to-one? That I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems close to it. Override or not, your wheel setting of 75 is definitely boosting the GM FF higher than 35. Just run the test. It's easy to see. .

Thanks!!! because of this i actually went back and re tested the FFB... What i found was that 75 on the wheel FFB feels good but it was stronger than i needed...I've been using the same Tweek settings with 75 on the wheel FFB for sooo long that I'm just used to it...just look at the first videos i posted the in car settings are all the same except for a few adjustments to the Global settings... it felt Great with 5.0, 6.0 ,7.0 even 8.0... what ever the case is with 9.0 and the GM FFB not working to + or - at the wheel FFB strength i had noticed that Now 75 on the wheel feels a tad bit stronger than it was... i just never paid it any mind because the good FFB feel is still there and even better than before...Thanx for making Me look again:yes:

Conclusion i have now reduced the on the wheel FFB to 65 and all feels as it did with 6.0!!! Great!!! i even figured out i can add the FFB effects that were reduced by the lower on wheel FFB back by upping the RAC to 96 without adding back the extra wheel weight:yes: but I'm going to stay with RAC 92 for now.... Last night while practicing Donington Park GP i Ran a 1:27.6xx in the GT3 Ruf with the stock set up and that's my fastest time so far!!! i was able to do this because the of the lighter wheel made it easier to get through the S turn that's 3/4 into the lap. Nice!!!

tennenbaum
03-03-2016, 22:47
Also it's important to keep in mind that more dynamic range isn't exactly better. Dynamic range can give life to the feel. But too much dynamic range can be a problem and put some forces outside the useful range.

your argument is fully in accordance with your setting: no dynamic range :D

tennenbaum
03-03-2016, 22:57
When i went karting fairly often, i did that for a while. When i started to actually lean(i wasn't actually leaning, i just didn't fight the G-Forces) the opposite way, I was able to steer and feel the rear sliding better. It's a big factor that made me drive faster. I drove with my body instead of my hands.

absolutely! in karting it's a common technique to lean outside to lighten the rear tire on the inside (since there is no differential) to reduce understeer, and get the kart turn in quicker. i tried that in a super cup porsche it didn't work this well... ;)

poirqc
03-03-2016, 23:00
Ack! If you hold onto the wheel the resulting data will likely be all over the place. The test itself just isn't designed to work this way.

Edit : Wow this thread is moving quickly these days.

I understand the Linear test isn't designed this way. However, from my pov, your application handled the data suprisingly well. I wonder how it'll pan out driving wise.

Following this thread is almost like a full time job!

Edit: If you even out the output, visually, it gives something that may make sense, to me. What i find funny is that Scoops are close to game's default.
229050

Krus Control
04-03-2016, 00:17
your argument is fully in accordance with your setting: no dynamic range :D

What? My settings use a massive dynamic range. Maybe you didn't plug them in right. In the dry in some cars, GT3 comes to mind, there isn't much dynamic range. But in most cars, and especially if you turn on rain, there is tons of dynamic range with my settings. Which BTW I think rain and Tstorms are the best place to test FFB.

gotdirt410sprintcar
04-03-2016, 04:29
It sounds more complex than it is. if you're entering a right hand turn, then support your turn in with mainly your left hand. Try turning in to a right hander with your right hand one handed, it's awkward. That's all we're saying. Most people haven't gotten their hand positions down yet and I think that's a more important step. And it's simple, keep your hands in the same place.

That is how dirt latemodel drivers go threw a corner one handed. i think that would be a challenge trying to drive a road coarse but it can be done .

Krus Control
04-03-2016, 04:42
That is how dirt latemodel drivers go threw a corner one handed. i think that would be a challenge trying to drive a road coarse but it can be done .

It can be done, it's just typically not ideal when road racing and what I described there is the proper technique for road racing. I will do the wrong way myself with the radbul sometimes when things get hairy. Sometimes in that car it gets so furious and you're making so many corrections that it's easier just to go one handed.

Woffu
04-03-2016, 04:54
Thanks for the settings morpwr I tryed them last night and they are much better with those 2 adjustments. Within 5 laps with your new settings I was beating my best lap times by more them 1 second. I can really feel more about what the car is doing around corners. I can now tell even more when to back off or if I can push harder.
Thank you for sharing you settings.

BigDad
04-03-2016, 07:02
your argument is fully in accordance with your setting: no dynamic range :D

lol

PureMalt77
04-03-2016, 16:24
I know this has nothing to do with FFB... sorry for the spam!

I'm looking for drivers for our "casual" league.
This league is there since PCars exists, but the person organizing it left, we had a break in February and I'm trying to make it happen again.

Is probably not for the hard-core racers, as we allow Pad users, assists and so on. For that there are plenty of leagues out there.
But will be cool to race with some of the FFB masters around here! GrimeyDog just signed his contract with us!
Goal is to race clean and have fun!

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45632-World-CARS-Championship-March-April-2016

Haiden
04-03-2016, 17:56
I know this has nothing to do with FFB... sorry for the spam!

I'm looking for drivers for our "casual" league.
This league is there since PCars exists, but the person organizing it left, we had a break in February and I'm trying to make it happen again.

Is probably not for the hard-core racers, as we allow Pad users, assists and so on. For that there are plenty of leagues out there.
But will be cool to race with some of the FFB masters around here! GrimeyDog just signed his contract with us!
Goal is to race clean and have fun!

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45632-World-CARS-Championship-March-April-2016

Sounds good, but I'm a little confused on the race times. It says there's two races per day, but then 6 times listed for various zones with no separation. Are the first three times for one race, and the last three for the second? Are the two races happening at the same time? 2 PM, EST and 11 AM, EST are the same time. Sorry, maybe I'm just in cloud today, but it's a little confusing to me. It would help if the times were just group by Race #1 and Race #2.

PureMalt77
04-03-2016, 18:17
Sounds good, but I'm a little confused on the race times. It says there's two races per day, but then 6 times listed for various zones with no separation. Are the first three times for one race, and the last three for the second? Are the two races happening at the same time? 2 PM, EST and 11 AM, EST are the same time. Sorry, maybe I'm just in cloud today, but it's a little confusing to me. It would help if the times were just group by Race #1 and Race #2.

Yes, is a bit confusing!!!

We do 2 races in a row: each race with 15 min Qualifying and around 30-35 min Race. Total run time around 2h.
And 1st race start at 8:00 PM CET, 7:00 PM UK and so on...
The races are on sundays, having a pause every 2nd sunday... that u see in the Calendar with the car/Track list...

Better now?

SGETI
04-03-2016, 20:56
""They are very different things. Fy depends on lateral force and mechanical trail. Mz is primarily driven by pneumatic trail, what is going on within the contact patch and tire carcass. Important to remember that mechanical trail =/= pneumatic trail. The former is variable with car setup (caster angle, etc.) and steering angle while the latter is dynamically variable with what the contact patch is doing at that instant. Mz tends to peak right around peak slip angle and then fall off rapidly to even go negative as you pass peak. Fy is far less temperamental. It might fade slightly past peak slip angle, but since the force is still in the same direction and only slightly lower in magnitude, the effect on total FFB signal is largely the same. ""

Found the above from http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45550-FFB-why-both-Fy-and-Mz-scale Casey Ringley , vehicle lead at P cars. Maybe this will make more sense to some of you here. Hope it helps.

Haiden
04-03-2016, 21:03
Yes, is a bit confusing!!!

We do 2 races in a row: each race with 15 min Qualifying and around 30-35 min Race. Total run time around 2h.
And 1st race start at 8:00 PM CET, 7:00 PM UK and so on...
The races are on sundays, having a pause every 2nd sunday... that u see in the Calendar with the car/Track list...

Better now?

Yeah... I get it now. Thanks! I'm not too in love with the car list. I haven't driven anything in the first half of the list... LOL. I just tried the BMW M1 Pro Car, and I'm not a fan. :) I'll try the others, and then let you know. I was in a league when PCars first came out, and they were racing cars and tracks I didn't really care for. I wanted to race with others, so I thought it would be fine, but practicing most of the week with cars and tracks I didn't care for just wasn't fun.

tennenbaum
04-03-2016, 21:19
I know this has nothing to do with FFB... sorry for the spam!

I'm looking for drivers for our "casual" league.
This league is there since PCars exists, but the person organizing it left, we had a break in February and I'm trying to make it happen again.

Is probably not for the hard-core racers, as we allow Pad users, assists and so on. For that there are plenty of leagues out there.
But will be cool to race with some of the FFB masters around here! GrimeyDog just signed his contract with us!
Goal is to race clean and have fun!


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45632-World-CARS-Championship-March-April-2016

i'd love to join. ...work is in my way these days. hope to hop in anyway soon.

Fight-Test
04-03-2016, 21:28
When i went karting fairly often, i did that for a while. When i started to actually lean(i wasn't actually leaning, i just didn't fight the G-Forces) the opposite way, I was able to steer and feel the rear sliding better. It's a big factor that made me drive faster. I drove with my body instead of my hands.

Yes completely different in karting. Some guys like to lean in on corner entry or lean out in corner to put more weight and pivot on the rear outside tire since inside is off ground.

In a car You use your back and shoulders by seat position not moving. Your harness won't permit you to move anyway. The wheel center should be between shoulder height and chin. This let's the proper muscles do all the work instead of arms. It's basically leverage.

Pretty much all its is covered in any race driving instruction book or video. All standard stuff. If your in a sim rig it will do wonders for your endurance and stamina to have a proper setup. Might have to get someone to help measure or take pics from the side but won't take long to get proper position.

Also can help if your getting back pains or neck pains. Proper core strength, stretching and breathing is really the key to keeping your body good in the seat. I run laydown karts in real life and with no suspension ad laying flat with the kart you get beat to hell alot worse than real car. We just don't have the same level of g's to deal with.

tennenbaum
04-03-2016, 21:33
""They are very different things. Fy depends on lateral force and mechanical trail. Mz is primarily driven by pneumatic trail, what is going on within the contact patch and tire carcass. Important to remember that mechanical trail =/= pneumatic trail. The former is variable with car setup (caster angle, etc.) and steering angle while the latter is dynamically variable with what the contact patch is doing at that instant. Mz tends to peak right around peak slip angle and then fall off rapidly to even go negative as you pass peak. Fy is far less temperamental. It might fade slightly past peak slip angle, but since the force is still in the same direction and only slightly lower in magnitude, the effect on total FFB signal is largely the same. ""

Found the above from http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45550-FFB-why-both-Fy-and-Mz-scale Casey Ringley , vehicle lead at P cars. Maybe this will make more sense to some of you here. Hope it helps.


great finding!! i was looking for such a valid statement for ever... thanks for sharing. there is so much valuable info in this short post. should be a sticky.

PureMalt77
04-03-2016, 21:56
Yeah... I get it now. Thanks! I'm not too in love with the car list. I haven't driven anything in the first half of the list... LOL. I just tried the BMW M1 Pro Car, and I'm not a fan. :) I'll try the others, and then let you know. I was in a league when PCars first came out, and they were racing cars and tracks I didn't really care for. I wanted to race with others, so I thought it would be fine, but practicing most of the week with cars and tracks I didn't care for just wasn't fun.
I get it. Well for me is a chance to try different stuff. I also don't like 100% of the choices, but try to please the most. Anyway, just drop a note when u wanna try....

PureMalt77
04-03-2016, 21:57
i'd love to join. ...work is in my way these days. hope to hop in anyway soon.
Not sure if that was a yes or a no... :confused:

Fight-Test
04-03-2016, 22:05
Thanks for the settings morpwr I tryed them last night and they are much better with those 2 adjustments. Within 5 laps with your new settings I was beating my best lap times by more them 1 second. I can really feel more about what the car is doing around corners. I can now tell even more when to back off or if I can push harder.
Thank you for sharing you settings.

Hey link me to these changes, went back a few pages and couldn't find.

PureMalt77
04-03-2016, 22:10
Hey link me to these changes, went back a few pages and couldn't find.
Many of us here use settings on the web. That's morpwr: http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/114

Got a similar link in my signature.

tennenbaum
04-03-2016, 22:13
Not sure if that was a yes or a no... :confused:

me neither :D
actually a no, with honest regret.

PureMalt77
04-03-2016, 22:16
me neither :D
actually a no, with honest regret.
I'm working like a dog these days and that help me turn it off for a while!
Anyway, let me know whenever you wanna try! Will be a pleasure to measure the best FFB setting in the track! LOL :D

Fight-Test
04-03-2016, 22:50
Many of us here use settings on the web. That's morpwr: http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/114

Got a similar link in my signature.

Thanks man, I have been using for a while too. Didn't know he had updated there. Thanks!

GrimeyDog
05-03-2016, 00:02
me neither :D
actually a no, with honest regret.


Come on tennenbaum it will be be fun... ya gotta let loose some time.

SGETI
05-03-2016, 00:14
great finding!! i was looking for such a valid statement for ever... thanks for sharing. there is so much valuable info in this short post. should be a sticky.

Glad you find the statement valid. Can you do me and maybe a few other a favor and translate the statement into something that will be easily understood. thanks.

Haiden
05-03-2016, 00:56
I get it. Well for me is a chance to try different stuff. I also don't like 100% of the choices, but try to please the most. Anyway, just drop a note when u wanna try....

Yeah... Go ahead and sign me up. I'll deal with the first two cars. X-Bow isn't that bad, but the BMW is just no joy, but I'll deal. :)

Woffu
05-03-2016, 05:06
Hey link me to these changes, went back a few pages and couldn't find.
These are the settings I'm using from morpwr. I'm using FFB 45
ffb master 45-65 or whatever you like
tf 75
drr .07
drf .019 ( put slider full left then 19 clicks right )
rag 1.50
rab .02
rac .85
sk .77
sr .20
str gain 1.00
anything not here is default. Let me know what you think your opinions always welcome.

Morpwr's settings on that web site need updating as he has made a few changes.

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 09:18
Yeah... Go ahead and sign me up. I'll deal with the first two cars. X-Bow isn't that bad, but the BMW is just no joy, but I'll deal. :)

What's ur PSN? or add me and I include u in the group later...

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 13:56
These are the settings I'm using from morpwr. I'm using FFB 45
ffb master 45-65 or whatever you like
tf 75
drr .07
drf .019 ( put slider full left then 19 clicks right )
rag 1.50
rab .02
rac .85
sk .77
sr .20
str gain 1.00
anything not here is default. Let me know what you think your opinions always welcome.

Morpwr's settings on that web site need updating as he has made a few changes.

So let's say I wanted to run more tf. I like at 100, I can't feel alot of the tire detail when I lower. I guess I got used to it. I was lowering rag and sg to compensate but now that sg is at a 100 where I ran it so should I just lower the rag or will that jack the signal up? I already have ffb at 45. I could go lower there also though if that's better than rag.

tennenbaum
05-03-2016, 14:06
Come on tennenbaum it will be be fun... ya gotta let loose some time.

:D ok! count me in! I'll send Pure Malt a sign up post. I don't even know how to spell Bannochbrae... never tried it, neither the BMW M1... it will be a disaster :D But it will be a lot of fun to meet you guys finally on the track...

tennenbaum
05-03-2016, 14:07
I'm working like a dog these days and that help me turn it off for a while!
Anyway, let me know whenever you wanna try! Will be a pleasure to measure the best FFB setting in the track! LOL :D

OK i'm in! Just beam me up, scotty! My PSN: miraculix99

GrimeyDog
05-03-2016, 14:16
:D ok! count me in! I'll send Pure Malt a sign up post. I don't even know how to spell Bannochbrae... never tried it, neither the BMW M1... it will be a disaster :D But it will be a lot of fun to meet you guys finally on the track...

Tennenbaum you wont be alone!!! 1 guy running a 2:17.xxx the other 2:15.xxx im 10 secs off the pace!!! Never driven that track but the first day it released just to see it and Never with that car... Car Feels good but Very Tricky Track...10 secs off the pace!!!!

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 14:42
OK i'm in! Just beam me up, scotty! My PSN: miraculix99
Cool, signing u in!

Guys, please post on the league's thread and don't spam this one! :o

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 14:43
Tennenbaum you wont be alone!!! 1 guy running a 2:17.xxx the other 2:15.xxx im 10 secs off the pace!!! Never driven that track but the first day it released just to see it and Never with that car... Car Feels good but Very Tricky Track...10 secs off the pace!!!!

this is what I like in our league and left others before: we try lots of things: some will be very comfortable, others not, making it a good mixture and giving each one a chance to excel in the combos they see best...

morpwr
05-03-2016, 14:48
These are the settings I'm using from morpwr. I'm using FFB 45
ffb master 45-65 or whatever you like
tf 75
drr .07
drf .019 ( put slider full left then 19 clicks right )
rag 1.50
rab .02
rac .85
sk .77
sr .20
str gain 1.00
anything not here is default. Let me know what you think your opinions always welcome.

Morpwr's settings on that web site need updating as he has made a few changes.

Sorry guys I wasn't sure how they were going to workout so I didn't post them yet. Ill try to get the site updated today.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 14:52
Tennenbaum you wont be alone!!! 1 guy running a 2:17.xxx the other 2:15.xxx im 10 secs off the pace!!! Never driven that track but the first day it released just to see it and Never with that car... Car Feels good but Very Tricky Track...10 secs off the pace!!!!

The corner after the bridge gets me everytime.lol Worst part is i know its coming and still do it.

tennenbaum
05-03-2016, 15:11
Glad you find the statement valid. Can you do me and maybe a few other a favor and translate the statement into something that will be easily understood. thanks.

Casey Ringley: "They are very different things. Fy depends on lateral force and mechanical trail. Mz is primarily driven by pneumatic trail, what is going on within the contact patch and tire carcass. Important to remember that mechanical trail =/= pneumatic trail. The former is variable with car setup (caster angle, etc.) and steering angle while the latter is dynamically variable with what the contact patch is doing at that instant. Mz tends to peak right around peak slip angle and then fall off rapidly to even go negative as you pass peak. Fy is far less temperamental. It might fade slightly past peak slip angle, but since the force is still in the same direction and only slightly lower in magnitude, the effect on total FFB signal is largely the same."

Briefly:

Check out the little Pajecka magic formula graph picture: Mz (that Casey refers to) is the green line, and Fy is the red graph. It explains why Mz - when peaking - tells you that the tire is close to develop less cornering force, meaning Fy is close to pass its peak and decreases, which leads to less cornering force... meaning the tire looses grip and you're getting closer to understeer. In other words: Mz peaks earlier than Fy.


In detail:

That's why in reality as with the game the driver is looking for settings (mechanical steering geometry, and FFB Setting) that makes him sense Mz, so gets a pre-warning shortly before the tires loose maximum grip. The catch is: Mz (here meant as the tire's Mz) creates less torque (to the steering) than Fy (translated to steering torque through caster, that defines the mechanical trail). That's why most common FFB settings here around work with reduced Fy and relatively increased Mz settings. Though, since most people are not aware of Mz very specific behavior (see green line: it can even go "negative") and that it only builds up around the slip angle, they can't really read it in the FFB mix. Example: The long sweeper curve after the bus stop of Watkins Glen Short. If you isolate Mz (by turning the other forces Fxyz off, you can feel that Mz builds up and disappears quickly (almost leading to rattling wheel) while you steer "around" the most efficient steering angle that grants you the best grip.


thanks to Ermo (at racedepartment forum) here the basics to its all:
Per definition, Mz* = (mechanical trail + pneumatic trail) * cos(caster angle) * Fy

see my explanations below...

it looks a bit scary, but is quite simple if you imagine a leverage that has a certain length (both trails summarized) and with Fy (lateral force) you push or pull on that leverage like on a longer or shorter door handle... the longer the door handle the more torque that rotates the kingpin you achieve...

Important: Mz* (above in the formula)) describes the torque that rotates kingpin, thus the steering wheel. The "Mz" we refer to in the game (FxyzMz) and to which Casey refers to is the torque that happens directly at (or with) the tire's contact patch, due to the tire's specific construction and and thus deformation during cornering. This is the complicated part: The Mz setting (Casey refers to) that we can adjust in the in car FFB settings describes how much "Tire-Mz" comes into effect (in the FFB mix) depending on the specific pneumatic trail of a specific tire. Instead the Mz* above results from the Mz (from tire) plus the Mz that results from caster and kingpin inclination (which creates the mechanical trail.)

Frankly, it took me quite a while until i really understood it... Because the entire finesse of it can be only understood when you get a deeper understanding how that "forms" the scrub radius. And depending on the scrub radius you start to understand why more or less tire-load (thus more or less friction/resistance, due to weight shifts, or aquaplaning, or ackermann angle, or one tire on the green and the other on the track... and so on) effects FFB so much. Even with effects that be can be very counter-intuitive!

Another thing that is often overlooked is that the left and the right front tire build up individually different pushing and pulling forces from both sides of the steering rack (toothed rock that moves the pinion). So the one tire from both tires that develops a stronger torque to its kingpin than the tire on the other side dominates the steering, thus not even your steering wheel but also whats happening to the tire on the other side. That's also the reason why changes of the ackermann angle lead to very complex effects that are hard to predict...

Elmo also contributed this great expanation of pCars FFB fundamentals
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/

here my explanations:

"trail" can be understood as leverage.

mechanical trail = the distance between the point on the road surface when you lenghten (in your mind) the kingpin virtually where it would hit the tarmac and the middle of the tire contact patch. Since the geometric orientation of kingpin depends on caster angle and kingpin inclination, the mechanical trail depends mainly on caster and KPI (which both can be influenced additonally by toe and camber).

pneumatic trail = distance between middle of the contact tyre patch and where the highest Fy will be created due to the tire's deformation of its contact patch, see little picture.

So the core of what Casey says is that the game's Mz (of FxyzMz) is derived from the pneumatic trail (not from the mechanical!). I did some lengthy Q&As with other guys in other forums to research what's officially confirmed now by Casey just recently.

It's actually great that pCars does it as Casey described it, because it shows that he and AJ (the devs for physics and FFB) did a great job: this way its totally logical: each tire model has its specific pneumatic trail, plus each car's steering geometry adds its individual mechanical trail to it (that you can manipulate by your car set ups caster camber toe...), and both together "translates" Fy into a torque to kingpin that moves the rack which turns the pinion which finally makes your (FFB-) wheel turn...

You get the entire picture when you google "Pajecka's magic formula". When you wanna dig deeper check out my former posts, or -for the hardcore enthusiasts- google Brian Beckmann The Physics of Racing... have fun!

here some more references

http://white-smoke.wikifoundry.com/page/Steering+Geometry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_trail

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morpwr
05-03-2016, 15:12
So let's say I wanted to run more tf. I like at 100, I can't feel alot of the tire detail when I lower. I guess I got used to it. I was lowering rag and sg to compensate but now that sg is at a 100 where I ran it so should I just lower the rag or will that jack the signal up? I already have ffb at 45. I could go lower there also though if that's better than rag.

Fight-test
Do me a favor and try the new settings just as i have them. Your doing what i did in the beginning. Problem is you get clipping which adds wheel weight that's why you have the ffb so low. In turn you loose the small details that are there. If youre using jacks settings you are definitely clipping at 100tf and sg 1.0. The new settings will definitely feel a little different at first but once you realize how much small details are there and clearly they are felt youll adjust quickly. Let me know how it works out.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 15:25
Fight-test
Do me a favor and try the new settings just as i have them. Your doing what i did in the beginning. Problem is you get clipping which adds wheel weight that's why you have the ffb so low. In turn you loose the small details that are there. If youre using jacks settings you are definitely clipping at 100tf and sg 1.0. The new settings will definitely feel a little different at first but once you realize how much small details are there and clearly they are felt youll adjust quickly. Let me know how it works out.

Ok I'll give it a go. I tried it on the last set but I couldn't tell the difference between oversteer and slip on front tires. So can u have clipping if the bar doesn't reach the top of box? That's all I have tried to avoid I regard to clipping. I kinda get lost in all the compression talk.

Haiden
05-03-2016, 15:47
Tennenbaum you wont be alone!!! 1 guy running a 2:17.xxx the other 2:15.xxx im 10 secs off the pace!!! Never driven that track but the first day it released just to see it and Never with that car... Car Feels good but Very Tricky Track...10 secs off the pace!!!!

For me it's the car. I'm not to these heavier cars with zero to no downforce...LOL Best lap was a 2:22.X. Didn't get to play last night, though. If I can get it to a 2:20.X, I'll be happy. Then it's time to do it all over again at Road America. I haven't really driven that track much in PCars, so it's going to be real adventure. :)


The corner after the bridge gets me everytime.lol Worst part is i know its coming and still do it.

Definitely! One of my favorite corners in the game, now. You have to be focused every single time, because it's soooo unforgiving. I found the line through the corner, but in the FA. The line and mechanics are pretty much the same in the BMW, but I need to adjust my braking points and throttle modulation to work with this boat. :) I've figured it out, now it's just building the discipline to hit it every time, and also figuring out an alternative wide-line, in case I find myself on the outside. It's not a corner I would attempt an overtake, but someone else might. Probably wouldn't end well for them, if they try to take that corner from the right lane coming off the bridge, but you never know. :)


Fight-test
Do me a favor and try the new settings just as i have them. Your doing what i did in the beginning. Problem is you get clipping which adds wheel weight that's why you have the ffb so low. In turn you loose the small details that are there. If youre using jacks settings you are definitely clipping at 100tf and sg 1.0. The new settings will definitely feel a little different at first but once you realize how much small details are there and clearly they are felt youll adjust quickly. Let me know how it works out.

Even with the CSW-v2, I had to lower SG with Jack's settings. It wasn't showing any clipping in the telemetry, and I don't think I was getting any at the wheel, but I wasn't never 100% positive. So, I just decided to error on the side of caution and lower it. I liked the feel better, and ended up taking SG a little lower than I expected.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 15:54
Ok I'll give it a go. I tried it on the last set but I couldn't tell the difference between oversteer and slip on front tires. So can u have clipping if the bar doesn't reach the top of box? That's all I have tried to avoid I regard to clipping. I kinda get lost in all the compression talk.

What I found was yes you can. The signal just gets cut off. If you put everything as I have it now and turn sg up to the previous 1.22 watch what happens when you start turning it down. The signals that looked like they were close to the top start getting smooth curved tops on them as you turn it down. Which turns into more feel instead of wheel weight. Its very easy to miss whats happening. I can definitely feel the front tires slipping and oversteer.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 15:59
For me it's the car. I'm not to these heavier cars with zero to no downforce...LOL Best lap was a 2:22.X. Didn't get to play last night, though. If I can get it to a 2:20.X, I'll be happy. Then it's time to do it all over again at Road America. I haven't really driven that track much in PCars, so it's going to be real adventure. :)



Definitely! One of my favorite corners in the game, now. You have to be focused every single time, because it's soooo unforgiving. I found the line through the corner, but in the FA. The line and mechanics are pretty much the same in the BMW, but I need to adjust my braking points and throttle modulation to work with this boat. :) I've figured it out, now it's just building the discipline to hit it every time, and also figuring out an alternative wide-line, in case I find myself on the outside. It's not a corner I would attempt an overtake, but someone else might. Probably wouldn't end well for them, if they try to take that corner from the right lane coming off the bridge, but you never know. :)



Even with the CSW-v2, I had to lower SG with Jack's settings. It wasn't showing any clipping in the telemetry, and I don't think I was getting any at the wheel, but I wasn't never 100% positive. So, I just decided to error on the side of caution and lower it. I liked the feel better, and ended up taking SG a little lower than I expected.



I don't know about you but I'm really amazed at how much detail the ffb can produce even with my t300. Now someone needs to make a dd wheel for consoles.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 16:02
I don't know about you but I'm really amazed at how much detail the ffb can produce even with my t300. Now someone needs to make a dd wheel for consoles. Problem with the bridge is you wind up staring at how good it looks and forget you need to turn.lol

spacepadrille
05-03-2016, 16:26
What I found was yes you can. The signal just gets cut off. If you put everything as I have it now and turn sg up to the previous 1.22 watch what happens when you start turning it down. The signals that looked like they were close to the top start getting smooth curved tops on them as you turn it down. Which turns into more feel instead of wheel weight. Its very easy to miss whats happening. I can definitely feel the front tires slipping and oversteer.

Hi morpwr ! Experiencing what you said, I totally agree. But... is there a way to bring back some weight in the wheel without disturbing the smooth curved tops ? It will be great ! I tried with RAC with no success. Can you please update your settings on oscarolim website ? Maybe I missed something in your new settings.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 16:51
Hi morpwr ! Experiencing what you said, I totally agree. But... is there a way to bring back some weight in the wheel without disturbing the smooth curved tops ? It will be great ! I tried with RAC with no success. Can you please update your settings on oscarolim website ? Maybe I missed something in your new settings.

I will get them up shortly.

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 16:58
Problem with the bridge is you wind up staring at how good it looks and forget you need to turn.lol

Wanna join us morpwr? Maybe a test-driver tomorrow? One of the "regulars" will miss so...

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 17:01
Hi morpwr ! Experiencing what you said, I totally agree. But... is there a way to bring back some weight in the wheel without disturbing the smooth curved tops ? It will be great ! I tried with RAC with no success. Can you please update your settings on oscarolim website ? Maybe I missed something in your new settings.

I did some short testing today, using GM FFB=75 (instead of 100). Now everyone has an opinion here, but I was not able to run the laps as I was running before - perhaps adjustment needed - but I feel that something was missing. Even when I gave more TF or increased the in-car masters to "compensate" for the missing 25%, it was lacking something.

So I'm back with my pre settings (did a 2:16,7 for the ProCar & Bannochbrae league race tomorrow), so I'm keeping that.

Maybe the wheel is clipping something, probably I could bring it a bit down, but the way it is now it just feels very good...

Haiden
05-03-2016, 17:32
I did some short testing today, using GM FFB=75 (instead of 100). Now everyone has an opinion here, but I was not able to run the laps as I was running before - perhaps adjustment needed - but I feel that something was missing. Even when I gave more TF or increased the in-car masters to "compensate" for the missing 25%, it was lacking something.

So I'm back with my pre settings (did a 2:16,7 for the ProCar & Bannochbrae league race tomorrow), so I'm keeping that.

Maybe the wheel is clipping something, probably I could bring it a bit down, but the way it is now it just feels very good...

This is how I feel. I get both sides of the debate, but in the end, my race pace is always better with FF@100, and I like the feel of the wheel more, especially the understeer and tire scrub. I find that, although I can run fast with FF<TF and match my best lap times, the speed comes at the expense of my tires. For some reason, when I lower FF I can't feel the scrub as well and overdrive the car. It's fine for hot laps, but I just can't run a race like that. When FF>TF, I run the same or better times, without shredding my tires. It probably comes down to preference, driving style, and personal sense of feel, but I'm done toying with that balance. I'll try new ideas and adjustments elsewhere, just not with those two scales.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 17:50
Had a go at Bannochbrae in the M1 procar because you guys brought it up here. Ran a 2:13.514 in 10 or so laps. I'm thinking I can beat the 2:12s that are there on the PC board. But it would take me probably an hour of running at least. 2:12 is fast.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 18:15
This is how I feel. I get both sides of the debate, but in the end, my race pace is always better with FF@100, and I like the feel of the wheel more, especially the understeer and tire scrub. I find that, although I can run fast with FF<TF and match my best lap times, the speed comes at the expense of my tires. For some reason, when I lower FF I can't feel the scrub as well and overdrive the car. It's fine for hot laps, but I just can't run a race like that. When FF>TF, I run the same or better times, without shredding my tires. It probably comes down to preference, driving style, and personal sense of feel, but I'm done toying with that balance. I'll try new ideas and adjustments elsewhere, just not with those two scales.

And I'm the opposite. I'll run the ffb at 45 like I am now and run tf at 100 so I can feel all the tire details. I feel like ffb is just raises everything equal. Different wheels though.

Mopwr. Just tried them and I like alot. Had to turn ffb up but gonna turn down and try more tf. Also on the deadzone stuff is that making it softer at center? I normally run all deadzone stuff at zero and steering ratio at 6.9.1 so every cm I move wheel I get vehicle response. Aim small miss small. Im trying your deadzone setting s and feels good but different. Just wondering what it does.

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 18:29
Had a go at Bannochbrae in the M1 procar because you guys brought it up here. Ran a 2:13.514 in 10 or so laps. I'm thinking I can beat the 2:12s that are there on the PC board. But it would take me probably an hour of running at least. 2:12 is fast.

That is F*** fast!

Haiden
05-03-2016, 18:55
Had a go at Bannochbrae in the M1 procar because you guys brought it up here. Ran a 2:13.514 in 10 or so laps. I'm thinking I can beat the 2:12s that are there on the PC board. But it would take me probably an hour of running at least. 2:12 is fast.

Video?


I normally run all deadzone stuff at zero and steering ratio at 6.9.1 so every cm I move wheel I get vehicle response. Aim small miss small. Im trying your deadzone setting s and feels good but different. Just wondering what it does.

I used to change/adjust my ration, and would really like to in some cars, but I once raced online with a track/car combo I knew really well, and was expecting to have a good race. But they had force default setups on and for the first half of the race I was blowing just about every corner, because I wasn't used to the default ratio. Since then, I just leave it alone, just in case. :(

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 18:58
Video?



I used to change/adjust my ration, and would really like to in some cars, but I once raced online with a track/car combo I knew really well, and was expecting to have a good race. But they had force default setups on and for the first half of the race I was blowing just about every corner, because I wasn't used to the default ratio. Since then, I just leave it alone, just in case. :(

They fixed it so ratio always goes with you even on forced default setup. Just have to do it before u enter the race.

I read some data analysis from f1 and dtm. It showed that the elite drivers in the world do 2 things different than everyone else. They turn in a hair earlier than other drivers and less movement on the wheel (less see-saw action) . To implement this in real life I had to greatly change my Ackerman angle. The only way I could find to do it within tune in game was the ratio. It's just what I got used too from trying to gain a little advantage. It does reduce over corrections alot but you have to have a soft touch with the wheel.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 18:59
Video?

Sorry but my system can't record in game. Frame rate drops to 10-15 and massive stutter and speed changes happen. :/

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 19:03
I'm usually running steering ratio at max. This produces the best FFB with my settings and I think with most settings. Raise steering ratio and creep up arm angle to compensate. You can get a bunch of different kinds of feels by balancing arm angle and steering ratio.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 19:27
I'm usually running steering ratio at max. This produces the best FFB with my settings and I think with most settings. Raise steering ratio and creep up arm angle to compensate. You can get a bunch of different kinds of feels by balancing arm angle and steering ratio.

Here's a good example from from hamilton.

https://youtu.be/ZRBXfwapkZQ

No see-saw and other than the beginning he rarely breaks 180 degrees or 90 in each direction. Perfect control of wheel, smooth line, and precise turn in every time. That's what a tight wheel gives you, aim small, miss small, aim big, miss big.

Max? Do you have to go hand over hand?

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 19:32
Yeah of couse I'm going hand over hand. But when I get oversteer I don't get snappy moments and corrections are easy. It might be a pain, but if you can race with a larger steering ratio do it. In some cars I'm not at max. But in that M1 procar I'm at like 33:0:1. In the radbul for instance having the steering ratio low is just not an option.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 19:36
Yeah of couse I'm going hand over hand. But when I get oversteer I don't get snappy moments and corrections are easy. It might be a pain, but if you can race with a larger steering ratio do it. In some cars I'm not at max. But in that M1 procar I'm at like 33:0:1. In the radbul for instance having the steering ratio low is just not an option.

Here's another good one from my hero johnny O From 08. Good go pro view of hands.

https://youtu.be/aXSZpEgzkK4

Too much margin of error for me. I always prefer more realistic and things that transfer to real racing.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 19:38
Umm turning the ratio up is a realistic thing that transfers to real racing. In any road car max is the only thing that is realistic.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 19:43
Umm turning the ratio up is a realistic thing that transfers to real racing. In any road car max is the only thing that is realistic.

Krus, we go round and round about what we perfer but I just showed you what a real drivers hands look like on wheel and the rotation that there is there. That rotation will be from 6.5.1 to 8.0.1 in pcars for gt3 (most of my experience). I didn't make this stuff up when I started racing, I talked to lots of drivers and instructors. It just is what it is.

And don't get me wrong, my wheels breaks 90 degrees sometimes. A hairpin, late braking, oversteer but 9 out of 10 if it does its because I've made a mistake.

And to add I have tried plenty os settings that feel like garbage with the tight ratio but normally it's because of a weird deadzone or no resistance at middle.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 19:50
To match that video the steering ratio in game would be 20:4:1. This is max in a lot of cars. What you are running is very narrow. This guy has his wheel at 180 in the hairpins. I don't do what I prefer, I do what's real. In race cars you generally want it wide but not so wide that your arms touch at the most lock you'll be putting on. Setting it narrow like you are doing is what some people do, but to say what I do isn't realistic is just ignorant.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 19:54
229245

90

229246

180

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 20:00
My real world reference is that I sat in this champ car (pictured) with the steering wheel attached. I didn't get to drive it but I got to feel the steering ratio and steering feel at a standstill. It was probably 18-20:0:1. I'm not arguing. I'm just stating facts.

229247

Edit: BTW the steering feel was epic. I could feel every grain of dust under the tires. I can only imagine the amount of information you get at speed.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 20:10
Let's not forget alot of race cars, especially gts have varible steering ratio that changes depending on speed. Also the ratio numbers themselves don't realistically relate from the game to real world because of other factors (in game deadzone and ffb). But just using a eye test you can see that most drivers rarely break 90 unless the situations I spoke about earlier. You will see some big wheel turn from a lmp1 in slow corners but watch through porsche curves. Barely moves wheel, but not 180 degrees or upside down.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 20:13
Let's not forget alot of race cars, especially gts have varible steering ratio that changes depending on speed. Also the ratio numbers themselves don't realistically relate from the game to real world because of other factors (in game deadzone and ffb). But just using a eye test you can see that most drivers rarely break 90 unless the situations I spoke about earlier. You will see some big wheel turn from a lmp1 in slow corners but watch through porsche curves. Barely moves wheel, but not 180 degrees or upside down.

There are no variable ratios in PCARS though, so it's kind of irrelevant. In that video you posted the guy goes very near 180 in the hairpins. And the figure I'm giving for the champ car is in PCARS numbers.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 20:22
There are no variable ratios in PCARS though, so it's kind of irrelevant. In that video you posted the guy goes very near 180 in the hairpins. And the figure I'm giving for the champ car is in PCARS numbers.

That's what I'm saying pcars doesn't have them. So I can't have the perfect ratio realistically for slow and fast corners. Thts why I have to sacrifice the 180 in slow tight ones so I can have the smaller in high speed stuff. There are always more fast corners the tight ones or hairpins.

I'm not saying the number itself isn't realistic. I'm saying after other changes are made that number might not be that number. Tight ratio but alot of deadzone or big ratio no deadone and I'm sure other things. I can have a 6.9.1 ratio but still have a inch of play in the wheel. I can also have it so I move a mm and the car moves.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 20:25
And I'm the opposite. I'll run the ffb at 45 like I am now and run tf at 100 so I can feel all the tire details. I feel like ffb is just raises everything equal. Different wheels though.

Mopwr. Just tried them and I like alot. Had to turn ffb up but gonna turn down and try more tf. Also on the deadzone stuff is that making it softer at center? I normally run all deadzone stuff at zero and steering ratio at 6.9.1 so every cm I move wheel I get vehicle response. Aim small miss small. Im trying your deadzone setting s and feels good but different. Just wondering what it does.

Try turning sensitivity up and ratio down to default. Spacepadrille and myself both found the wheel always felt soft for about the first 10 degrees or so of turn in. I tried ratio but it still felt wrong. I think he is in the 80s and I'm at 90 for sensitivity now. It made it very hard to consistently hit a corner the same at 50. If you want to really see what it does turn it down to 35 and see how difficult it is to hit your marks.My daughter was watching when I tried 35 and asked what was wrong with me.lol

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 20:28
Ok cool Ill try that. I always had deadzone number 0 across the board and I had zero play in the wheel. Now I have a soft middle for a half inch on each side. It's not bad but the cars still responds in the soft zone alot then you get a tighter feeling as u go away from center.

It's a weird sensation.

Pwc outlap at cota right now. Johnny on the front row.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 20:28
Try turning sensitivity up and ratio down to default. Spacepadrille and myself both found the wheel always felt soft for about the first 10 degrees or so of turn in. I tried ratio but it still felt wrong. I think he is in the 80s and I'm at 90 for sensitivity now. It made it very hard to consistently hit a corner the same at 50. If you want to really see what it does turn it down to 35 and see how difficult it is to hit your marks.My daughter was watching when I tried 35 and asked what was wrong with me.lol

try turning steering sensitivity back to default and raise your arm angles in each car by 100-300. This should fix the problem in most cars.

spacepadrille
05-03-2016, 20:31
Totally agree with morpwr, sensitivity helps a lot (I set it to 0.86). I also use WPM -0.01, WPMS 0.

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 20:46
Totally agree with morpwr, sensitivity helps a lot (I set it to 0.86). I also use WPM -0.01, WPMS 0.

This is a game changer. I feel so much more detail from the car. It feels like I can tell where I can tune it up a little better now. My ratio wasn't effected but much more response in the wheel especially close to center. Also go rid of any slack in the wheel. Very nice. I'll try the arm angle now and see if same results

Haiden
05-03-2016, 21:31
They fixed it so ratio always goes with you even on forced default setup. Just have to do it before u enter the race.


What???? Thanks!


Sorry but my system can't record in game. Frame rate drops to 10-15 and massive stutter and speed changes happen. :/

Too bad. You really need to post a video when you're talking about record breaking trail blazers like that. Did you upload the Leaderboard ghost?


My real world reference is that I sat in this champ car (pictured) with the steering wheel attached. I didn't get to drive it but I got to feel the steering ratio and steering feel at a standstill. It was probably 18-20:0:1. I'm not arguing. I'm just stating facts.

Not sure that really means much. The ratio can change per track. So what you felt might have just been a default ratio, and not a race tune.

Edit: Also your choice of ratio also has a lot to with driving style. I don't think there's a one size fits all.


Try turning sensitivity up and ratio down to default. Spacepadrille and myself both found the wheel always felt soft for about the first 10 degrees or so of turn in. I tried ratio but it still felt wrong. I think he is in the 80s and I'm at 90 for sensitivity now. It made it very hard to consistently hit a corner the same at 50. If you want to really see what it does turn it down to 35 and see how difficult it is to hit your marks.My daughter was watching when I tried 35 and asked what was wrong with me.lol


This is a game changer. I feel so much more detail from the car. It feels like I can tell where I can tune it up a little better now. My ratio wasn't effected but much more response in the wheel especially close to center. Also go rid of any slack in the wheel. Very nice. I'll try the arm angle now and see if same results

I've been wondering about Steering Sensitivity, but have been too lazy to mess with it. Might give it a try later. Thanks!

GrimeyDog
05-03-2016, 21:50
The corner after the bridge gets me everytime.lol Worst part is i know its coming and still do it.

I am Sooo Going to get My Ars Kicked in the Race!!! I was supposed to spend all day Running Laps to practice and had to take care of some bizz!!! My last lap was a 2:25.xxx!!! WTF... I dont Know that Car/track at all and im still Not home yet to Practice!!!

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 22:04
What???? Thanks!

Too bad. You really need to post a video when you're talking about record breaking trail blazers like that. Did you upload the Leaderboard ghost?

Not sure that really means much. The ratio can change per track. So what you felt might have just been a default ratio, and not a race tune.

Edit: Also your choice of ratio also has a lot to with driving style. I don't think there's a one size fits all.

My time is on the leaderboard for PC. You can look at my split times on the leaderboard website. I don't think it's an especially fast lap. And I think the two people in front of me on the leaderboard would agree.

I know that steering ratios aren't set in stone. What I felt in the car could have been way wider than normal. The main reason I go high with it is that my FFB functions better at higher ratios. Anything below 10:0:1 and I'll get snappiness that stems from my FFB in a lot of the cars. And I don't even like it in that range so that's why my FFB is configured the way it is. Another big plus of big ratios is that you can hold longer slides and correct for oversteer more precisely. I never said small ratios were wrong or unrealistic. I think anywhere in the range of ratios PCARS gives is realistic. I just think that a lot of the problems people have with FFB is that PCARS seems to not do FFB as well at lower ratios in a lot of cars. But it also does do it well in a lot. It's definitely something you should be taking into account when setting up FFB.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:31
Ok cool Ill try that. I always had deadzone number 0 across the board and I had zero play in the wheel. Now I have a soft middle for a half inch on each side. It's not bad but the cars still responds in the soft zone alot then you get a tighter feeling as u go away from center.

It's a weird sensation.

Pwc outlap at cota right now. Johnny on the front row.

That's exactly what I felt.

tennenbaum
05-03-2016, 22:32
I am Sooo Going to get My Ars Kicked in the Race!!! I was supposed to spend all day Running Laps to practice and had to take care of some bizz!!! My last lap was a 2:25.xxx!!! WTF... I dont Know that Car/track at all and im still Not home yet to Practice!!!

i can't even finish a lap without crashing the car... ok, had 2 or 3 drinks... but i doubt i will be any better tomorrow... new car, nwe track, i had no clue that it can be this hard :p

PureMalt77
05-03-2016, 22:35
i can't even finish a lap without crashing the car... ok, had 2 or 3 drinks... but i doubt i will be any better tomorrow... new car, nwe track, i had no clue that it can be this hard :p
LOL! Is an extreme combo I agree. The other races will get better.
checkout a lap I've posted. With this car is really about being smooth and braking a bit earlier. Problem with Bannochbrae is that it does not give you enough references on braking points

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:37
try turning steering sensitivity back to default and raise your arm angles in each car by 100-300. This should fix the problem in most cars.

I tried that on a bunch of different cars going by 200s and it didn't get rid of it. The only thing I found was sensitivity.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:39
This is a game changer. I feel so much more detail from the car. It feels like I can tell where I can tune it up a little better now. My ratio wasn't effected but much more response in the wheel especially close to center. Also go rid of any slack in the wheel. Very nice. I'll try the arm angle now and see if same results

Took me a while to figure that one out. Everyone says its arm angle its ddr its not.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 22:39
Yeah the M1 needs to be dialed in or it's a nightmare in a few places there. And setup had to be very specific for me with dampers especially. Here's a tip; always run full or near full downforce at Bannochbrae.

Edit: BTW I can post my setup if you want.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:42
I am Sooo Going to get My Ars Kicked in the Race!!! I was supposed to spend all day Running Laps to practice and had to take care of some bizz!!! My last lap was a 2:25.xxx!!! WTF... I dont Know that Car/track at all and im still Not home yet to Practice!!!

I really wanted to do that tomorrow but same here girlfriend decided we needed a movie tonight. I was about the same this morning when I tried it.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:44
LOL! Is an extreme combo I agree. The other races will get better.
checkout a lap I've posted. With this car is really about being smooth and braking a bit earlier. Problem with Bannochbrae is that it does not give you enough references on braking points

If you need someone to fill in next time I'm game. Keep me in mind for the next season for sure.

SGETI
05-03-2016, 22:45
Edit: BTW I can post my setup if you want.

I would be curious to see your set up. Not saying I could drive it, but would like to give it a go. thanks for the offer to share.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:48
LOL! Is an extreme combo I agree. The other races will get better.
checkout a lap I've posted. With this car is really about being smooth and braking a bit earlier. Problem with Bannochbrae is that it does not give you enough references on braking points

The little I tried it this morning I sort of liked it. Definitely a challenge.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 22:50
229264

Diff at 25% accel lock and 83% decel lock
85 preload
Downforce at 7
Brake pressure at 83%
Brake balance at 63%

And I'm actually running steering ratio at 38:3:1 which is the highest I know of in any car in the game.

I think this setup is good for 2:12s

morpwr
05-03-2016, 22:55
I have a stupid question is there a way other than a headset to talk when online?

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 22:58
LOL! Is an extreme combo I agree. The other races will get better.
checkout a lap I've posted. With this car is really about being smooth and braking a bit earlier. Problem with Bannochbrae is that it does not give you enough references on braking points

There are lots of good brake markers at Bannochbrae. The red sign (is this sign red? I forget. Anyway it's to the left) and SLOW in the road is your braking point in T2. At the end of the bridge brake between the SLOW markers on the road. At the sweeping left along the water (lake to your right) use the light posts off to the right as your braking marker. In the hairpin coming towards Maggies chicane (I think that's what we agreed to call it here in the forum lol) brake before the red diagonalish paint in the center of the road. There are lots of good references. It's not like Zuhai where sometimes you're left completely in the dark.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 23:05
What???? Thanks!



Too bad. You really need to post a video when you're talking about record breaking trail blazers like that. Did you upload the Leaderboard ghost?



Not sure that really means much. The ratio can change per track. So what you felt might have just been a default ratio, and not a race tune.

Edit: Also your choice of ratio also has a lot to with driving style. I don't think there's a one size fits all.





I've been wondering about Steering Sensitivity, but have been too lazy to mess with it. Might give it a try later. Thanks!

Not sure how that will work with your wheel. With the t300 it really seemed to help with that narrow spot right off center that is so important with hitting a corner right.

morpwr
05-03-2016, 23:17
For those following my settings they are updated on the oscarolim site.

Haiden
06-03-2016, 00:51
I am Sooo Going to get My Ars Kicked in the Race!!! I was supposed to spend all day Running Laps to practice and had to take care of some bizz!!! My last lap was a 2:25.xxx!!! WTF... I dont Know that Car/track at all and im still Not home yet to Practice!!!

Sounds like we might be running wheel to wheel, then. :)

SGETI
06-03-2016, 02:23
Krus Control
Krus Control

Can you check, fast front bump, You show different settings for the right and left. ??

Krus Control
06-03-2016, 03:18
Yeah it looks like I messed that up somehow. Rear slow bump at 5800 and front fast bump at 3600. That is what I set the time on though.

Ekay.jay
06-03-2016, 04:06
Try turning sensitivity up and ratio down to default. Spacepadrille and myself both found the wheel always felt soft for about the first 10 degrees or so of turn in. I tried ratio but it still felt wrong. I think he is in the 80s and I'm at 90 for sensitivity now. It made it very hard to consistently hit a corner the same at 50. If you want to really see what it does turn it down to 35 and see how difficult it is to hit your marks.My daughter was watching when I tried 35 and asked what was wrong with me.lol

For the longest time I have messed with dzr drf and other settings trying to get rid of the soft spot right in the middle. Turning sensitivity to 100 and then adjusting the steering ratio completely fixed it. Thanks!

BigDad
06-03-2016, 08:17
I have a stupid question is there a way other than a headset to talk when online?

Yeah mate, through your ps4 camera.
The mic in the camera picks up your vioce and your "friends" voice comes out you sound system (tv, stereo ) speakers =)
I've used this method when i have lots of people in my room that wont to hear and be heard .
Or maybe grab a mobile phone ear piece and plug it into your DS4 (i don't know anyone who hasn't got about 5 of these things laying around)

PureMalt77
06-03-2016, 08:56
I have a stupid question is there a way other than a headset to talk when online?
Not that I know off. I'm using the Sony Wireless Stereo Headset 2.0, quite like them.
You can balance game vs chat sound, and even turn down chat completely.

Gloomy
06-03-2016, 09:47
Grimey Dog asked me to post my Fanatec 911 GT2 wheel settings

TF 98
PWM 0.00
PWMS 0.00
WPS 0.04
DRR 0.11
DRF 0.01
Linkages all stock
RAG 0.98
RAB 0.12
RAC 0.92
S.K 0.68
S.R 0.16
No clipping
MSS 0.10
LSSC 0.50
LSSS 0.74
S G 100
In game ffb is at 25 .
And Mr Jack Spade 66 incar .
Hope that helps some =)

Is the gt2 basically the same as the gt3? I have the gt3, I want to try these settings tomorrow. I have decent ffb now, but it's always nice to try out different settings from other people.

BigDad
06-03-2016, 11:47
I've updated them since then,
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
They should translate well to the Fanatec GT3 , have a go with both as they feel a bit different to each other , but my new ones are better imo.
Turn dri OFF on the wheel with then new settings and use them exactly as noted .
Hopefully tomorrow i can test the sensitivity settings that morpwr and afew others have been talking about , I've got it at 50 now and supposedly 80-90 is the go .
Good luck , i hope you find a sweet spot .

Haiden
06-03-2016, 14:17
I've updated them since then,
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
They should translate well to the Fanatec GT3 , have a go with both as they feel a bit different to each other , but my new ones are better imo.
Turn dri OFF on the wheel with then new settings and use them exactly as noted .
Hopefully tomorrow i can test the sensitivity settings that morpwr and afew others have been talking about , I've got it at 50 now and supposedly 80-90 is the go .
Good luck , i hope you find a sweet spot .

Your settings are pretty close to mine on the CSW-v2. I boosted steering sensitivity yesterday after reading Morpwr's post. It definitely made a huge difference. I settled on 80 for now, but will try 90 later.

morpwr
06-03-2016, 15:35
For the longest time I have messed with dzr drf and other settings trying to get rid of the soft spot right in the middle. Turning sensitivity to 100 and then adjusting the steering ratio completely fixed it. Thanks!

I may not be able to drive for crap but I know when something doesn't feel right.lol That one drove me nuts for the longest time. Soooo many settings. Glad I could help you guys. That's what this forum is all about.:cool:

morpwr
06-03-2016, 15:44
Not that I know off. I'm using the Sony Wireless Stereo Headset 2.0, quite like them.
You can balance game vs chat sound, and even turn down chat completely.

Thanks guys ill have to take a look at those. If I'm going to race with you guys online I need to figure something out. The night I raced with grimey was tough when you cant communicate.

morpwr
06-03-2016, 15:51
Your settings are pretty close to mine on the CSW-v2. I boosted steering sensitivity yesterday after reading Morpwr's post. It definitely made a huge difference. I settled on 80 for now, but will try 90 later.

Don't tell grimey;) lol

Haiden
06-03-2016, 17:51
Off topic, but...

If you have an Alcantara rim, you might want to check these out. I bought a pair, and they are awesome! Extremely form-fitting. I can still flip through the pages of my notebook and write with them on. They aren't made for touch screens, but the rubber meshing over the index and middle fingers work just fine on my tablet. I was looking at racing gloves, but good ones were just more than I was willing to pay and they also go up to mid-forearm. These are perfect, lightweight, breathable fabric, and surprisingly cheap for the quality. :)

Just take the time to measure your hand, as instructed. And if you find yourself on the cusp of a size, go with the larger one (or next one down if you're on the lower side).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017NGVK1Q?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

poirqc
06-03-2016, 19:11
Yes completely different in karting. Some guys like to lean in on corner entry or lean out in corner to put more weight and pivot on the rear outside tire since inside is off ground.

In a car You use your back and shoulders by seat position not moving. Your harness won't permit you to move anyway. The wheel center should be between shoulder height and chin. This let's the proper muscles do all the work instead of arms. It's basically leverage.

Pretty much all its is covered in any race driving instruction book or video. All standard stuff. If your in a sim rig it will do wonders for your endurance and stamina to have a proper setup. Might have to get someone to help measure or take pics from the side but won't take long to get proper position.

Also can help if your getting back pains or neck pains. Proper core strength, stretching and breathing is really the key to keeping your body good in the seat. I run laydown karts in real life and with no suspension ad laying flat with the kart you get beat to hell alot worse than real car. We just don't have the same level of g's to deal with.

Proper body position in a rig really does wonders! It's that important. This is what took the longer to build it. A inch missing here or there can do a big difference, over time. I still have some fine tuning to do. When i'll have some time.

Karting can be hard on the ribs if not properly seated or "being" to stiff.

Gloomy
07-03-2016, 00:23
I've updated them since then,
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
They should translate well to the Fanatec GT3 , have a go with both as they feel a bit different to each other , but my new ones are better imo.
Turn dri OFF on the wheel with then new settings and use them exactly as noted .
Hopefully tomorrow i can test the sensitivity settings that morpwr and afew others have been talking about , I've got it at 50 now and supposedly 80-90 is the go .
Good luck , i hope you find a sweet spot .

Thanks, I tried your newer settings, they're better than what I had going. I tried raising the sensitivity settings but did not really care for it, 50 still felt better to me.

BigDad
07-03-2016, 00:27
Off topic, but...

If you have an Alcantara rim, you might want to check these out. I bought a pair, and they are awesome! Extremely form-fitting. I can still flip through the pages of my notebook and write with them on. They aren't made for touch screens, but the rubber meshing over the index and middle fingers work just fine on my tablet. I was looking at racing gloves, but good ones were just more than I was willing to pay and they also go up to mid-forearm. These are perfect, lightweight, breathable fabric, and surprisingly cheap for the quality. :)

Just take the time to measure your hand, as instructed. And if you find yourself on the cusp of a size, go with the larger one (or next one down if you're on the lower side).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017NGVK1Q?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00
I've got the same material on my rim and have similar gloves :).
229351
I would recommend wearing gloves to stop sweat getting into the Alcantara.

lol, yep that's my toes with nail polish. I've got a 7yr old Daughter. =), maybe?

BigDad
07-03-2016, 00:34
Thanks, I tried your newer settings, they're better than what I had going. I tried raising the sensitivity settings but did not really care for it, 50 still felt better to me.

Thank Jack Spade because they were his settings modified for our cheaper wheels. He uses a CSW v2.
I'm glad your happy with them.
I'm about to try sensitivity at 85 now?

Ekay.jay
07-03-2016, 01:54
I went with sensitivity 80, eventually I moved it to 100 and then changed my steering ratio in car, made a world of difference.

Be sure that if you are changing your steering ratios in practice mode it will not change until you back out and re-enter practice.

Haiden
07-03-2016, 06:29
I would recommend wearing gloves to stop sweat getting into the Alcantara.

Exaxctly! Over time, the sweat and oil from your skin will ruin the material.



I went with sensitivity 80, eventually I moved it to 100 and then changed my steering ratio in car, made a world of difference.

Be sure that if you are changing your steering ratios in practice mode it will not change until you back out and re-enter practice.

I was thinking about doing the same, high sensitivity, and then using a higher ratio to fine tune the precision.

Good race today, BTW. :)

lost jedi
07-03-2016, 08:25
Yeah mate, through your ps4 camera.
The mic in the camera picks up your vioce and your "friends" voice comes out you sound system (tv, stereo ) speakers =)
I've used this method when i have lots of people in my room that wont to hear and be heard .
Or maybe grab a mobile phone ear piece and plug it into your DS4 (i don't know anyone who hasn't got about 5 of these things laying around)
Thank man the camera works !WOW why didn't I know about this earlier .
I've been using a ear bu but now this suits me better .
Thank you .

PureMalt77
07-03-2016, 11:15
So, back to FFB testing!

My last discussion revolved around using FF=100 with the T300. My "average" snake line in the telemetry page stays in the 85%, which some believe being too much for this wheel and it clips data.
I tried with FF=75 as to many's recommendation, but the wheel is too "poor" IMO. One corner really helped me identify the differences: the 180 high speed corner at Road America. When using FF=100 (combined of course with the rest of my settings), I could feel those little hicks on the wheel when I was entering understeer and getting grip again, and helped me a lot dosing the gas pedal. My reference was to not let the car drops below 155Km/h in that corner. When I reduced to 75, all that detail was gone, which I tried to compensate increasing TF, playing with the RAC, but could not manage a good setup. Either the hicks turned to grinding, or the telemetry graph clipped already in the screen, and most important, could not manage the 155Km/h reference constantly.

Yesterday we had a 2 hour event: two races with the BMW M1 Pro Car Bannochbrae & Road America. I was hoping for that long run to put it to practice. The wheel never faded, the fan never reached the high rotation mode, throughout the entire session, and felt strong to my taste all the time, I really had my arms tired after it.

I don't have the knowledge to argue right or wrong here, I'm just sharing that it feels pretty good this way (to my taste at least) and I don't have any impression that is being too much for the wheel to take. For now on, this is my sweet spot.

But as always, I like to try everything. Morphrw has some new settings around, which I want to give it a shot next time.

GrimeyDog
07-03-2016, 11:33
So, back to FFB testing!

My last discussion revolved around using FF=100 with the T300. My "average" snake line in the telemetry page stays in the 85%, which some believe being too much for this wheel and it clips data.
I tried with FF=75 as to many's recommendation, but the wheel is too "poor" IMO. One corner really helped me identify the differences: the 180 high speed corner at Road America. When using FF=100 (combined of course with the rest of my settings), I could feel those little hicks on the wheel when I was entering understeer and getting grip again, and helped me a lot dosing the gas pedal. My reference was to not let the car drops below 155Km/h in that corner. When I reduced to 75, all that detail was gone, which I tried to compensate increasing TF, playing with the RAC, but could not manage a good setup. Either the hicks turned to grinding, or the telemetry graph clipped already in the screen, and most important, could not manage the 155Km/h reference constantly.

Yesterday we had a 2 hour event: two races with the BMW M1 Pro Car Bannochbrae & Road America. I was hoping for that long run to put it to practice. The wheel never faded, the fan never reached the high rotation mode, throughout the entire session, and felt strong to my taste all the time, I really had my arms tired after it.

I don't have the knowledge to argue right or wrong here, I'm just sharing that it feels pretty good this way (to my taste at least) and I don't have any impression that is being too much for the wheel to take. For now on, this is my sweet spot.

But as always, I like to try everything. Morphrw has some new settings around, which I want to give it a shot next time.

The RAC sets how high the Snake Line goes in the FFB Graph. Test it Set RAC to 50 and you will see it stays to 50% of the FFB box... The FFB will be present but at 50% power... The FFB strength and Graph line will move up according to how high you set RAC.

RAC sets Constant power level of FFB forces before it is influenced by the in car settings.

pavano
07-03-2016, 11:43
I've got the same material on my rim and have similar gloves :).
lol, yep that's my toes with nail polish. I've got a 7yr old Daughter. =), maybe?

thanks for the nail-polish tip!
Will try that tomorrow.
Will sure be a lot smoother then
:)

BigDad
07-03-2016, 12:05
Helps for heel and toe braking . =)

morpwr
07-03-2016, 12:10
So, back to FFB testing!

My last discussion revolved around using FF=100 with the T300. My "average" snake line in the telemetry page stays in the 85%, which some believe being too much for this wheel and it clips data.
I tried with FF=75 as to many's recommendation, but the wheel is too "poor" IMO. One corner really helped me identify the differences: the 180 high speed corner at Road America. When using FF=100 (combined of course with the rest of my settings), I could feel those little hicks on the wheel when I was entering understeer and getting grip again, and helped me a lot dosing the gas pedal. My reference was to not let the car drops below 155Km/h in that corner. When I reduced to 75, all that detail was gone, which I tried to compensate increasing TF, playing with the RAC, but could not manage a good setup. Either the hicks turned to grinding, or the telemetry graph clipped already in the screen, and most important, could not manage the 155Km/h reference constantly.

Yesterday we had a 2 hour event: two races with the BMW M1 Pro Car Bannochbrae & Road America. I was hoping for that long run to put it to practice. The wheel never faded, the fan never reached the high rotation mode, throughout the entire session, and felt strong to my taste all the time, I really had my arms tired after it.

I don't have the knowledge to argue right or wrong here, I'm just sharing that it feels pretty good this way (to my taste at least) and I don't have any impression that is being too much for the wheel to take. For now on, this is my sweet spot.

But as always, I like to try everything. Morphrw has some new settings around, which I want to give it a shot next time.

Problem is your brain has gotten used to the little hicks/clipping. If we are talking about the same thing its really nothing if that makes any sense. Its a ffb hole your feeling where something didn't get reproduced correctly. I used to get it all the time on the sweeper at the glen. They are like little jerks in the wheel. Problem is as you know you cant just adjust one thing because it has an effect down the chain. I was pretty sure some wouldn't like my new tweaks because I cleaned up the signal. It doesn't feel as loud I guess I would say. The detail is better but the background noise is gone. I don't remember what are you using for cars settings. By the times you guys turned yesterday it works for you like you have it so maybe that's just what works for you.

Haiden
07-03-2016, 12:41
So, back to FFB testing!

My last discussion revolved around using FF=100 with the T300. My "average" snake line in the telemetry page stays in the 85%, which some believe being too much for this wheel and it clips data.
I tried with FF=75 as to many's recommendation, but the wheel is too "poor" IMO. One corner really helped me identify the differences: the 180 high speed corner at Road America. When using FF=100 (combined of course with the rest of my settings), I could feel those little hicks on the wheel when I was entering understeer and getting grip again, and helped me a lot dosing the gas pedal. My reference was to not let the car drops below 155Km/h in that corner. When I reduced to 75, all that detail was gone, which I tried to compensate increasing TF, playing with the RAC, but could not manage a good setup. Either the hicks turned to grinding, or the telemetry graph clipped already in the screen, and most important, could not manage the 155Km/h reference constantly.

Yesterday we had a 2 hour event: two races with the BMW M1 Pro Car Bannochbrae & Road America. I was hoping for that long run to put it to practice. The wheel never faded, the fan never reached the high rotation mode, throughout the entire session, and felt strong to my taste all the time, I really had my arms tired after it.

I feel the same way. There's something about FF=100 that just works for me. My times are better and my wheel has less noise. And that last statement is why I'm not worried about it. I often race for longer than 30 minutes. When I ran FF/TF at 100/65 on my T300, I never had any fading issues. I run 100/75 on my CSW-v2, and don't have any issues whatsoever. And yes, my arms were tired after Road America. :) But by the time we said goodbye, and backed out of the session--couldn't have been more than 2-3 minutes--my fan had already shut off. IMO, the FF=100 problem was over exaggerated by the fact that some people were just being complete idiots with their FFB settings and pushing way too much power to the wheel. In other games (with only two or three FFB sliders), they had been able to push the FFB to it's max, and they tried to do the same with PCars, running 100/100, with high in-car settings, as well. Yes, some people were misled by advice form PC users, but a lot of people who burnt out their wheels were just arcade style players cranking the FFB, because they thought it felt realistic. The cries of dead wheels, then created a general backlash against the FF=100, even though, when properly balanced, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Thrustmaster and whoever might have advised against it, but--knowing how marketing, PR, and Customer Service work--I honestly think that was just a better safe than sorry approach to the problem. Again, that's just my two cents. But my settings aren't hurting my wheel, and I like them. In the end, that's all that matters. :)


Problem is your brain has gotten used to the little hicks/clipping. If we are talking about the same thing its really nothing if that makes any sense. Its a ffb hole your feeling where something didn't get reproduced correctly. I used to get it all the time on the sweeper at the glen. They are like little jerks in the wheel. Problem is as you know you cant just adjust one thing because it has an effect down the chain. I was pretty sure some wouldn't like my new tweaks because I cleaned up the signal. It doesn't feel as loud I guess I would say. The detail is better but the background noise is gone. I don't remember what are you using for cars settings. By the times you guys turned yesterday it works for you like you have it so maybe that's just what works for you.

I can't speak for Malt, but that's not the case with me. It's possible that I was getting a little clipping at the wheel with Jack's settings original settings. I could never be absolutely sure. I occasionally felt something that made me wonder, and realized there could have been a PC/Console difference that was causing it. But I've since reduced SG, and now I know I'm not clipping, even with FF@100. Using a slightly modified version of Jack's settings, my wheel is quieter, in terms of extraneous noise, but still maintains the full dynamic range. During yesterday's races on Bonnachbrae and Road America, I felt lots of road texture (150kph, was my target in roundabout. A little more test/tuning time and I could probably hug it at 155 :) ). Afterwards, I took the same car out on Silverstone, and the road felt much quieter. Exactly the way it should be. :) When I run TF@100, tracks that are smooth in RL have too much road feel, IMO. Which is why I started suspecting the difference was just noise.

PureMalt77
07-03-2016, 12:59
The RAC sets how high the Snake Line goes in the FFB Graph. Test it Set RAC to 50 and you will see it stays to 50% of the FFB box... The FFB will be present but at 50% power... The FFB strength and Graph line will move up according to how high you set RAC.

RAC sets Constant power level of FFB forces before it is influenced by the in car settings.

Good tip, but I'm running a somewhat low enough RAC=0.85, with RAG=1.10 and RAB=0.10. Maybe I should bring down RAG=1.00 as I'm giving a 10% extra boost here?


Problem is your brain has gotten used to the little hicks/clipping. If we are talking about the same thing its really nothing if that makes any sense. Its a ffb hole your feeling where something didn't get reproduced correctly. I used to get it all the time on the sweeper at the glen. They are like little jerks in the wheel. Problem is as you know you cant just adjust one thing because it has an effect down the chain. I was pretty sure some wouldn't like my new tweaks because I cleaned up the signal. It doesn't feel as loud I guess I would say. The detail is better but the background noise is gone. I don't remember what are you using for cars settings. By the times you guys turned yesterday it works for you like you have it so maybe that's just what works for you.

Well, that got to main brain like drugs then! :D
For me is all about getting what I need from the FFB system, and those hicks (being noise or not) really help me drive faster and feel more from the tires when I need to rescue the car. 2x 45 min with the ProCar yesterday was for me the biggest trial since I'm running my unusual settings. FF apart, my biggest change is to run scoop-less and IMO I'm really enjoying this game without them.
BTW: using JS Classic settings. The ProCar just as they are from JS, only difference is that I did not apply smoothing. Only cars I had to vary a bit are the openwheelers, FA for instance I need to crank the masters down from 32 to 22 or is just too strong.
But your settings are in my next list for trial anyway ;)


I feel the same way. There's something about FF=100 that just works for me. My times are better and my wheel has less noise. And that last statement is why I'm not worried about it. I often race for longer than 30 minutes. When I ran FF/TF at 100/65 on my T300, I never had any fading issues. I run 100/75 on my CSW-v2, and don't have any issues whatsoever. And yes, my arms were tired after Road America. :) But by the time we said goodbye, and backed out of the session--couldn't have been more than 2-3 minutes--my fan had already shut off. IMO, the FF=100 problem was over exaggerated by the fact that some people were just being complete idiots with their FFB settings and pushing way too much power to the wheel. In other games (with only two or three FFB sliders), they had been able to push the FFB to it's max, and they tried to do the same with PCars, running 100/100, with high in-car settings, as well. Yes, some people were misled by advice form PC users, but a lot of people who burnt out their wheels were just arcade style players cranking the FFB, because they thought it felt realistic. The cries of dead wheels, then created a general backlash against the FF=100, even though, when properly balanced, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Thrustmaster and whoever might have advised against it, but--knowing how marketing, PR, and Customer Service work--I honestly think that was just a better safe than sorry approach to the problem. Again, that's just my two cents. But my settings aren't hurting my wheel, and I like them. In the end, that's all that matters. :)

I can't speak for Malt, but that's not the case with me. It's possible that I was getting a little clipping at the wheel with Jack's settings original settings. I could never be absolutely sure. I occasionally felt something that made me wonder, and realized there could have been a PC/Console difference that was causing it. But I've since reduced SG, and now I know I'm not clipping, even with FF@100. Using a slightly modified version of Jack's settings, my wheel is quieter, in terms of extraneous noise, but still maintains the full dynamic range. During yesterday's races on Bonnachbrae and Road America, I felt lots of road texture (150kph, was my target in roundabout. A little more test/tuning time and I could probably hug it at 155 :) ). Afterwards, I took the same car out on Silverstone, and the road felt much quieter. Exactly the way it should be. :) When I run TF@100, tracks that are smooth in RL have too much road feel, IMO. Which is why I started suspecting the difference was just noise.

Fully agree with the better safe than sorry. You gotta know what you are doing as wrong settings can really destroy the wheel.
Mine shut off a bit longer, after around 5-6 min, which I think is normal for the size of the fan they have.

Bunga412
07-03-2016, 13:04
I have found myself lost in the rabbit hole again. I think the devs are laughing at us, hands down it is the most hours I have put into any game. FFB vs TF what a nightmare.

BigDad
07-03-2016, 13:17
Your settings are pretty close to mine on the CSW-v2. I boosted steering sensitivity yesterday after reading Morpwr's post. It definitely made a huge difference. I settled on 80 for now, but will try 90 later.
I played with this today jumping from 50 to 90 but didn't like it so i bought it down by 10's till i was happy and found 50 again , lol . Higher than this seemed to make it to sensitive , probably just me along with my set up already making the car direct and with a lot around the center .
So far my set up is my Nirvana untill i find my Metallica .
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163

Bunga412
07-03-2016, 13:18
229355 Wheel was out of warranty so I had nothing to loose.

Haiden
07-03-2016, 13:19
I have found myself lost in the rabbit hole again. I think the devs are laughing at us, hands down it is the most hours I have put into any game. FFB vs TF what a nightmare.

I honestly think that after a while, if you've really been researching, testing, and trying new things, you get to a point where you're not really making any gains. You're just bouncing between one good tune and another. If you're wrestling with the time difference of anything below .500, then you're probably at that point, and that small variance is just the result of switching from one tune to another faster than you can adjust to the feel (it takes a lot of time to truly setting into a tune). If you're at this point, it's a good sign that you just need to pick one of the options you're wrestling with and get back to racing. :)

Bunga412
07-03-2016, 13:25
I played with this today jumping from 50 to 90 but didn't like it so i bought it down by 10's till i was happy and found 50 again , lol . Higher than this seemed to make it to sensitive , probably just me along with my set up already making the car direct and with a lot around the center .
So far my set up is my Nirvana untill i find my Metallica .
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163

I was playing around with this today as well. I think it does a similar job to PWM. To much and it accelerates the wheel. It doesn't feel normal. I ended back at 50, but without PWM it wasn't to bad, still prefer 50.

Bunga412
07-03-2016, 13:27
I honestly think that after a while, if you've really been researching, testing, and trying new things, you get to a point where you're not really making any gains. You're just bouncing between one good tune and another. If you're wrestling with the time difference of anything below .500, then you're probably at that point, and that small variance is just the result of switching from one tune to another faster than you can adjust to the feel (it takes a lot of time to truly setting into a tune). If you're at this point, it's a good sign that you just need to pick one of the options you're wrestling with and get back to racing. :)

I'm hearing you champ!

PureMalt77
07-03-2016, 13:30
I honestly think that after a while, if you've really been researching, testing, and trying new things, you get to a point where you're not really making any gains. You're just bouncing between one good tune and another. If you're wrestling with the time difference of anything below .500, then you're probably at that point, and that small variance is just the result of switching from one tune to another faster than you can adjust to the feel (it takes a lot of time to truly setting into a tune). If you're at this point, it's a good sign that you just need to pick one of the options you're wrestling with and get back to racing. :)

Dito!
All tunes I've tested so far are excellent - different - but excellent. It helped me understand many of the single parameters. Now I've picked up a base setting which I intent to use for a while in our current championship, which mixes several cars and tracks to get to a final veredict (final until SMS changes the FFB in a future patch and we start all over again!). Until then only one thing in mind: racing! Ultimately it's why I bought this game and all the gear around for :D
And if I test someone's settings that makes me faster, oh boy I will use it and to hell with my pride! :p

BigDad
07-03-2016, 13:32
229355 Wheel was out of warranty so I had nothing to loose.
Nice cooling mods :)
What's the switch for?

PureMalt77
07-03-2016, 13:33
Wheel was out of warranty so I had nothing to loose.
That's a big fan!
What is the switch for? Do you turn that fan separately?
Can the electronics handle the bigger fan without problems or do you supply it with another power source? (just asking if someday I will ever had to mod mine!)

Bunga412
07-03-2016, 13:40
That's a big fan!
What is the switch for? Do you turn that fan separately?
Can the electronics handle the bigger fan without problems or do you supply it with another power source? (just asking if someday I will ever had to mod mine!)

The switch is for the fan, and the external power supply I found was off an external hard drive. 240v into 12v. I also drilled holes in the front casing to cool my hands but the holes need to be a little bigger.

PureMalt77
07-03-2016, 13:50
The switch is for the fan, and the external power supply I found was off an external hard drive. 240v into 12v. I also drilled holes in the front casing to cool my hands but the holes need to be a little bigger.

cool your hands with..... hot air? :rolleyes:

Bunga412
07-03-2016, 13:54
cool your hands with..... hot air? :rolleyes:

I'm a guy with sweaty palms, any air feels cool.

Haiden
07-03-2016, 15:59
Fully agree with the better safe than sorry. You gotta know what you are doing as wrong settings can really destroy the wheel.
Mine shut off a bit longer, after around 5-6 min, which I think is normal for the size of the fan they have.

Oh, Bunga's post reminded me that I replaced the exhaust fan on my CSW-v2 with a variable speed USB powered fan. The side intake fan is still the original, so when I said the fan shut off after 2-3 minutes, I was talking about the intake fan, which is still controlled by the wheel's temp gauge. The USB exhaust fan cools much better than the original one, but before I installed it, both the intake and exhaust fan were shutting down in the 5-6 minute range after long sessions.

gotdirt410sprintcar
07-03-2016, 20:05
229355 Wheel was out of warranty so I had nothing to loose.
Pretty sweet but there is a problem man this photo makes you dizzy trying to look at it. I keep turning my head side ways lol

gotdirt410sprintcar
07-03-2016, 20:21
Sorry for double post MZ MZ low or high is the ? I like it low right now it is at 36 what does everyone else think. And yes its been talked about but yesterday was the first time really trying it and i think i really like it it seems to me the rest of the signals have room to work if mz is to high you drown out the rest. I think i will test this for a bit to see if this is a good thing or not but what casey is saying it's just the carcus of the tire the other three are the one's to pay attention too.

Krus Control
07-03-2016, 20:32
Sorry for double post MZ MZ low or high is the ? I like it low right now it is at 36 what does everyone else think. And yes its been talked about but yesterday was the first time really trying it and i think i really like it it seems to me the rest of the signals have room to work if mz is to high you drown out the rest. I think i will test this for a bit to see if this is a good thing or not but what casey is saying it just the carcus of the tire the other three are the one's to pay attention too.

For me Mz has always been the first thing I turn down. If you push the envelope with raising forces MZ is usually the first one to start giving you clipping problems, but not always. My current settings are Fxyz 100 and Mz 18 in every car. At lower levels, though, I've had Mz feel great at the same level as Fxyz.

tennenbaum
07-03-2016, 21:51
229355 Wheel was out of warranty so I had nothing to loose.

i see engineering skills :-)

Bunga412
08-03-2016, 12:31
All tunes I've tested so far are excellent - different - but excellent. It helped me understand many of the single parameters. Now I've picked up a base setting which I intent to use for a while in our current championship, which mixes several cars and tracks to get to a final veredict (final until SMS changes the FFB in a future patch and we start all over again!). Until then only one thing in mind: racing! Ultimately it's why I bought this game and all the gear around for :D
And if I test someone's settings that makes me faster, oh boy I will use it and to hell with my pride! :p

Hey puremalt, me again.
Would you mind trying just one more tune, I know it's is all about the racing now.

I have ended up going the way of more TF, I know I have been a huge advocate of 100 ffb, but it does lose detail. Its hard to find the best of both worlds. When I lose a car in a spin, I want lose it good. I couldn't find that with ffb at 75 in the past, but I had a couple of good spins tonight.
My new settings are in my signature. This is a take on morpwr's settings with a few math tweaks to suit taking 25% of the cars master scales. I know u have tried my settings in the past and I value your opinions, it's been handy. Hope you like this one. It feels a little more dynamic.

PureMalt77
08-03-2016, 13:06
Hey puremalt, me again.
Would you mind trying just one more tune, I know it's is all about the racing now.

I have ended up going the way of more TF, I know I have been a huge advocate of 100 ffb, but it does lose detail. Its hard to find the best of both worlds. When I lose a car in a spin, I want lose it good. I couldn't find that with ffb at 75 in the past, but I had a couple of good spins tonight.
My new settings are in my signature. This is a take on morpwr's settings with a few math tweaks to suit taking 25% of the cars master scales. I know u have tried my settings in the past and I value your opinions, it's been handy. Hope you like this one. It feels a little more dynamic.

Thanks for the trust! Will try them surely this weekend!

Haiden
08-03-2016, 13:27
Check out the wheel in these videos. Different tracks, slightly different fight in the wheel, but in all of them, most of the fight comes under heavy braking, acceleration, or in high-speed corners and maneuvering. On straights, the wheel is fairly quiet, especially on Nurburgring, which has a smoother surface. Even coming down the pit lane straight at Monza, Raikkonen hits 360+ kph, and the wheel barely moves (third video--Monza).

Nurburgring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCbPaWD0Gvc

Australia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB2XkzT4uGw

Monza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhLtgMr5XV8&ebc

On rougher surfaces, you can expect a little more vibration/road texture in the wheel even on the straights, but you shouldn't be fighting it. IMO, if you're dealing with a lot of chatter on straights of smooth tracks--other than shifting related to undulations and surface changes--it's just noise. And the reason you want to quiet that noise is because under heavy braking, acceleration, and cornering you want to feel the true grip and tire slip as best you can. The extraneous noise you feel on the straights will still be there when you brake, accel, and corner, mixed in with the critical feedback you're trying to sense to negotiate the track. The noise is basically just polluting your feedback dynamic.

You should be able to feel a definitive difference between rough and smooth tracks. Silverstone shouldn't feel anything like Sakitto. And Nurburging shouldn't feel like the Nordschleife. :)

Bunga412
08-03-2016, 13:33
Spot on Haiden.

PureMalt77
08-03-2016, 14:28
Check out the wheel in these videos. Different tracks, slightly different fight in the wheel, but in all of them, most of the fight comes under heavy braking, acceleration, or in high-speed corners and maneuvering. On straights, the wheel is fairly quiet, especially on Nurburgring, which has a smoother surface. Even coming down the straight at Monza, Raikkonen hits 360+ kph, and the wheel barely moves (third video).

Nurburgring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCbPaWD0Gvc

Australia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB2XkzT4uGw

Monza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0oratWNh2I

Monza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhLtgMr5XV8&ebc

On rougher surfaces, you can expect a little more vibration/road texture in the wheel even on the straights, but you shouldn't be fighting it. IMO, if you're dealing with a lot of chatter on straights of smooth tracks--other than shifting related to undulations and surface changes--it's just noise. And the reason you want to quiet that noise is because under heavy braking, acceleration, and cornering you want to feel the true grip and tire slip as best you can. The extraneous noise you feel on the straights will still be there when you brake, accel, and corner, mixed in with the critical feedback you're trying to sense to negotiate the track. The noise is basically just polluting your feedback dynamic.

You should be able to feel a definitive difference between rough and smooth tracks. Silverstone shouldn't feel anything like Sakitto. And Nurburging shouldn't feel like the Nordschleife. :)

So far the best explanation I've had about what really "noise" means!

Fight-Test
08-03-2016, 14:46
Check out the wheel in these videos. Different tracks, slightly different fight in the wheel, but in all of them, most of the fight comes under heavy braking, acceleration, or in high-speed corners and maneuvering. On straights, the wheel is fairly quiet, especially on Nurburgring, which has a smoother surface. Even coming down the straight at Monza, Raikkonen hits 360+ kph, and the wheel barely moves (third video).

Nurburgring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCbPaWD0Gvc

Australia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB2XkzT4uGw

Monza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0oratWNh2I

Monza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhLtgMr5XV8&ebc

On rougher surfaces, you can expect a little more vibration/road texture in the wheel even on the straights, but you shouldn't be fighting it. IMO, if you're dealing with a lot of chatter on straights of smooth tracks--other than shifting related to undulations and surface changes--it's just noise. And the reason you want to quiet that noise is because under heavy braking, acceleration, and cornering you want to feel the true grip and tire slip as best you can. The extraneous noise you feel on the straights will still be there when you brake, accel, and corner, mixed in with the critical feedback you're trying to sense to negotiate the track. The noise is basically just polluting your feedback dynamic.

You should be able to feel a definitive difference between rough and smooth tracks. Silverstone shouldn't feel anything like Sakitto. And Nurburging shouldn't feel like the Nordschleife. :)

Brilliant post and 100% spot on!!

PureMalt77
08-03-2016, 14:52
Although makes me think about something: there you have a real car around you, that bumps and shakes your body and not just a steering wheel on a non-moving rig.
I stated in a previous post that those extra "hicks" the wheel is currently giving me, being noise or not, really helps me to get an extra feedback needed. I know is probably the "wrong way" to compensate the lack of a real car, but the wheel is all I've got. Just the way I see SoP: an unnatural way to provide you rear-tire feedback that you don't have in a real car.

Haiden
08-03-2016, 15:51
Although makes me think about something: there you have a real car around you, that bumps and shakes your body and not just a steering wheel on a non-moving rig.
I stated in a previous post that those extra "hicks" the wheel is currently giving me, being noise or not, really helps me to get an extra feedback needed. I know is probably the "wrong way" to compensate the lack of a real car, but the wheel is all I've got. Just the way I see SoP: an unnatural way to provide you rear-tire feedback that you don't have in a real car.

That's the great thing about this game. You can set it up however you like. If you like a little noise for effect, there's nothing wrong with using it, as long as you understand it for it is (and realize you're sacrificing a little critical feel/clarity because of it). But I think a lot of people see the telemetry and feel the chatter and think that means they're getting better dynamic range. That's when it becomes counter productive. The examples I posted weren't meant as a "this is the way it should be done" kind of thing. I was just trying to show the difference. :)

GrimeyDog
08-03-2016, 18:36
SMS Really Needs to explain whats going on with the GM FFB... Code de Azure with the KTM I can Spot at the wheel Clipping at the down Hill Horse shoe turn... Wheel gets a Knot Slams comletly to the Left then Frees.up after a few secs. SMH!!!

Reducing the on the wheel FFB is the only way to get Rid of it...Im Starting to Really Consider if The On the wheel FFB is really over riding the GM FFB.... But i must say it appears to be the Case....Im getting Tired of Guessing FFB because SMS aint Talking. SMH

Haiden
08-03-2016, 19:27
SMS Really Needs to explain whats going on with the GM FFB... Code de Azure with the KTM I can Spot at the wheel Clipping at the down Hill Horse shoe turn... Wheel gets a Knot Slams comletly to the Left then Frees.up after a few secs. SMH!!!

Reducing the on the wheel FFB is the only way to get Rid of it...Im Starting to Really Consider if The On the wheel FFB is really over riding the GM FFB.... But i must say it appears to be the Case....Im getting Tired of Guessing FFB because SMS aint Talking. SMH

Check your in-car settings. I don't have a problem with the X-bow at Azure. Coming down that hill definitely puts a lot on the front brakes, but I don't feel anything like what you just described--no clipping or notching. In fact, other than the speed (much slower), running Azure in the X-bow is pretty much like the same rhythm as I'm in running it in the FA. I was prepared to have to do a lot of practicing, but was surprised at how similar it felt in that car.

Also, I don't think the wheel FFB thing is a new issue. I first discovered it when got my CSW-v2 and started retuning. I was isolating the scales to see how they felt on that wheel and realized the GM FF wasn't doing anything. I bought my wheel just after 6.0 hit. So it's been like that for a while. And I'm almost certain I heard someone else mention that even before 6.0.

Edit: Also, my wheel and GM FF are set to 100. Not sure why you're getting clipping.

Krus Control
08-03-2016, 19:30
SMS Really Needs to explain whats going on with the GM FFB... Code de Azure with the KTM I can Spot at the wheel Clipping at the down Hill Horse shoe turn... Wheel gets a Knot Slams comletly to the Left then Frees.up after a few secs. SMH!!!

Reducing the on the wheel FFB is the only way to get Rid of it...Im Starting to Really Consider if The On the wheel FFB is really over riding the GM FFB.... But i must say it appears to be the Case....Im getting Tired of Guessing FFB because SMS aint Talking. SMH

Try just turning down Mz. Or try raising arm angle. Either one should fix that.

tennenbaum
08-03-2016, 20:33
Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
Back in the Rabbit Hole exploring the FFB paradox!!! I've been using on wheel FFB 55, 65, but it seems that i must go back to 75!!! reason being 55 & 65 feels Good but it just frees up the center of the wheel Too much!!! i Lose that High speed Corner tire chatter that lets me Know when im at the edge of grip...at this point I'm with Haiden what the hell i have GM FFB at V2 game default 50 and on wheel FFB 75... GM FFB seems Not to have any impact on the V2 wheel ATM... Seems that i will be adjusting the In cars Fx,Mz and Sop lat on a per car basis to get the wheel weight comfortable per car

good bye lazy Life Hello more tweek work... I will be waiting until 10.0 drops before i make any huge changes to the tweek... i need to see if anything will change with GM FFB and how it affects the V2 wheel FFB + , - or Not at all


LOL! I think you wanted to post this in the FFB thread right? :D
I think some reading this here are asking what has the guy been drinking???

I experimented last Saturday with my FFB "pure" approach:

BEFORE you waste your time with reading this post: This is experimental! And totally personal. This is not a FFB setting to be recommended in any way! Therefore no classic list of settings... I only used it with Ruf 8 GT3 with stock, and BMW 1 procar, on Watkins Glen, Bannochbrae and Road of America.
The post is just meant to share some thoughts with other Unicorn chasers or "in the rabbit whole diggers" :)
...

First i switched off relative adjust, SC and scoop, so:

- no RAG, no RAB, no RAC (to be precise: i set RAC to 2.00). Therefore no compression/soft-limiting with the RAG/RAB/RAC module!
- no SK, and no SR (so i used the natural compression of T300, thus no linear I/O curve)
- no SCHI, no SCFO

1.) I choose the Ruf 8 GT3 and Watkins Glen Short. Car and track are my "references".
2.) I set TF to 100
3.) I set SG to 1.0

4.) I set FFB to... X (i prefer light wheels in general. With this experiment here i can use everything between FFB 25 and 75. You can go to 100, due this special setting here FFB 100 can't damage or overheat the T300 anyway. With the settings as described here, I ran the WCC competition Road of America last Sunday with FFB 28!. I know that's very low, but as i said, it's an experiment and i had tired arms from the testings... I had DDR at 0.06 and DRF 0.02. With lower FFB i could increase it to avoid a very light wheel at center. But after i got used to the lightness of the wheel it was ok for me. Of course this experimental setting here won't give you any sensations in term of road feel. If you're on a straight stretch it's a "boat feeling" as Spacepadrille named it ;-). Of course you also don't feel the finish line paint on Watkins Glen.

3.) Then i set all Fxyz and SoPs to Zero.. I only used Mz.
4.) I set Spindle Master Scale to 12*

*Don't ask me why 12... The ones who followed my posts know that I believe in some premises:
a.) there is no Signal to Noise Dynamic Problem with pCars, therefore no problem with low values, and
b.) Signal chain block A (Fxyzm, Sops, spindle master scale and SoP scale and TF) and signal chain block B (SG and FFB master) with all settings in the blocks are all linear scalers/multipliers. NotaBene: Always be aware that between block A and block B sits the RAG/RAB/RAC module, and the SC module and SK and SR, thus signal-stages/modules that are non-linear scalers! Insofar it doesn't matter if i set Spindle Master Scale to 12 and Mz to 160, or SMS to 24 and Mz to 80... (BTW: I leave spindle arm angle out of discussion here. I still think it belongs into the mechanical setting parts area.)

4.) I ran some laps and set Mz to 160. This way i only reached a bit less than 100%* once when the Ruf goes into the first right hand corner after the long straight just when the track goes up steep and next corner goes left... *I knew i still need a bit headroom for the other forces that will add to Mz. Remember: SMS set to 12. ALSO NOTE: i turned off RAC, and SC and Scoop so everything is unaltered, and i can balance Fxyz and SoP starting from this Mz almost being 100%.

5.) I run constant laps and increase Fy by increments of 20 then 10, 5... until i like Fy, together with Mz. I ended up at around 82.

6.) I ran many laps, and thought well, a bit boring but very analytic, therefore kind of satisfying. I was convinced I will not use Fz anymore? Why? Because since nobody could tell me why Fz works "inverse" with 95% percent of the cars, I didn't want to have anything in the mix that has no logic to me. I also know that JS kind of counter-acts his usually high Fz settings per car with high SoP settings. And i didn't plan to go with a lot of SoP (due to my "pure" approach)

7.) Then i dialed in a little bit SoP: SoP scale = 12, SoP lateral 20; SoP Diff = 60.

8.) I kept it this pure for many rounds and i liked it. Then set RAG to 1.35 and RAB to 0.06, but set RAC to 200 (2.0). I could have set RAC to 1.0 because i didn't have any FFB > 1.00 (100%) anyway due to my low tireforce setting, but i wanted to absolutely sure that i won't have any non-linerar behavior so i set RAC to 200.

9.) Now i could clearly tell, the adding of relative adjust elements (RAG/RAB) feels good, adds "differentiation, and didn't seem to add any "chatter/noise" imo.

10.) I thought i'm settled and fine now. I clapped myself on the shoulder: "no Fz needed!" :)

11.) To cut it short: After many more rounds i gave Fz a try again. I dialed it Fz = 80. Of course the wheel got a bit lighter during cornering (due to Fz's inverse character), but it gave after all a touch more sensitivity during cornering, plus of course a bit more road feel in general. So i stayed with it, and made my peace with Fz! :D

12.) I used all the settings as above test-wise on the BMW M1 procar and it felt great, too! The only thing i had to do now is to raise TF from 100 to around 145 to achieve 100% in the telemetry hud again. So obviously the M1 "creates" less tireforce than the Ruf.

Two other things might be interesting for some:

RAG/RAB! In my very first "pure" attempt, i even didn't use any RAG/RAB. I really wanted to make sure that i get the purest feeling possible. After many laps, getting used to it - with ok laptimes - and when i thought great i don't need relative adjust any more, i just dialed it back in... And now i had no doubt any more: With RAG is more fun, and you get literally better feedback; and my laptimes got a bit better. So with my "pure" approach i didn't end up as pure as i thought.

Steering Sensivity! I think it's one of the most "personal" settings at all. I'm not fully sure, I'd rather speak of a tendency i have: I ended up with 83. First i thought 60 or 65 is nice. Then i thought, well why not 100? But again and again i found around 80 the best for me. But that's one of those settings that i can only judge by my gut feeling when i reach this point of driving when i don't think about my settings any more... ;-) Funny enough. When i settled now with 83 i remembered that i found such values around 80 to be nice already at the very beginning of my tests end of last year... but then forgot about it and always had 50. Point is: Changing the steering sensitivity helps me a bit to correct sudden oversteer. Not much, but it feels more intuitive.

That's where i stand at the moment. I i hope my next tests show that with this "experimental" setting i can use the same settings for all the cars, except to adjust TF so i always "normalize" every car to my "references". That's the FFB Unicorn i'm chasing for the moment... :D Story to be continued...

Haiden
08-03-2016, 21:01
• Steering Sensivity! I think it's one of the most "personal" settings at all. I'm not fully sure, I'd rather speak of a tendency i have: I ended up with 83. First i thought 60 or 65 is nice. Then i thought, well why not 100? But again and again i found around 80 the best for me. But that's one of those settings that i can only judge by my gut feeling when i reach this point of driving when i don't think about my settings any more... ;-) Funny enough. When i settled now with 83 i remembered that i found such values around 80 to be nice already at the very beginning of my tests end of last year... but then forgot about it and always had 50. Point is: Changing the steering sensitivity helps me a bit to correct sudden oversteer. Not much, but it feels more intuitive.

That's where i stand at the moment. I i hope my next tests show that with this "experimental" setting i can use the same settings for all the cars, except to adjust TF so i always "normalize" every car to my "references". That's the FFB Unicorn i'm chasing for the moment... :D Story to be continued...

That all sounded interesting. I'm out of the hole, though, but wanted to mention one thing about the above... if you're looking to create a one-size fits all, I recently tried raising Steering Sensitivity and liked it. I had it at 80, and used that for Sunday's race in the BMW M1 Pro Car. But then later, I found that 80 was just a tad too high for the FA and some of the other open wheelers with more responsive steering. I reduced it to 75 and that felt pretty good last night. I was tempted to leave it at 80, and then raise the steering ratio on the cars that were too sensitive, but the problem with that is ratio can't be set in session. So if you forget, you're screwed. That bug is the reason I've been leaving steering ratio at default. I might have to reconsider that, though, and just deal with the hassle.

Of course, another reason 80 might have felt too high is because I was using the F1 rim. :confused:

BigDad
08-03-2016, 23:05
Check your in-car settings. I don't have a problem with the X-bow at Azure. Coming down that hill definitely puts a lot on the front brakes, but I don't feel anything like what you just described--no clipping or notching. In fact, other than the speed (much slower), running Azure in the X-bow is pretty much like the same rhythm as I'm in running it in the FA. I was prepared to have to do a lot of practicing, but was surprised at how similar it felt in that car.

Also, I don't think the wheel FFB thing is a new issue. I first discovered it when got my CSW-v2 and started retuning. I was isolating the scales to see how they felt on that wheel and realized the GM FF wasn't doing anything. I bought my wheel just after 6.0 hit. So it's been like that for a while. And I'm almost certain I heard someone else mention that even before 6.0.

Edit: Also, my wheel and GM FF are set to 100. Not sure why you're getting clipping.

Yeah I posted a while ago that in game ffb does nothing, just leave it at 100 and I've got my wheel at 90 (should be 100) but leaving a little room for the wheel.
I think the FFB is great, dare I say perfect.
Having incar settings to high certainly create all sorts of issues.
I've now finished the career and found all cars I drove throughout to all have different characteristics and felt the way I think they should, but I'm using different incar settings for All cars. It's a bit of a pain but we'll worth the effort.