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View Full Version : Car/brand licensing question from a noobie



balderz002
07-09-2015, 11:26
This isnt a request thread, and its open to anyone with an answer or opinion on the subject, but I was wondering on the licensing of now defunct manufacturers (The 2 I am thinking of in particular when thinking of defunct brands are TVR and Lola). Obviously, someone owns the rights, but can it be more difficult to set stuff up, than when dealing with current, very much alive car brands?

Its something I find interesting, with all the legal pitfalls and politics that it involves.

jimmyb_84
07-09-2015, 12:24
If I remember correctly Multimatic own Lola's rights and for historic cars I believe there is a Lola historic company now.

Multimatic will run a pair of brand new Ford GT GTE's in the world endurance championship next year (Ganassi the other two) *random info*

I would like to see Lola as I named my daughter after them ;)

Angst1974
07-09-2015, 12:30
TVR looks alive too .... http://tvr.co.uk/trademarks

Though someone like Saleen may be available soon ;) if they can't get it together.

balderz002
07-09-2015, 12:54
TVR looks alive too .... http://tvr.co.uk/trademarks

Though someone like Saleen may be available soon ;) if they can't get it together.

And there was me thinking Trevor was long dead and buried!

Cheesenium
07-09-2015, 15:55
TVR isnt exactly dead, they were bought by a British billionaire where now they are working on a new car with Gordon Murray and Cosworth. Deposits are already taken for the new car.

I went on wikipedia, I did not know TVR had such a long history with multiple models.

TheReaper GT
07-09-2015, 16:01
TVR isnt exactly dead, they were bought by a British billionaire where now they are working on a new car with Gordon Murray and Cosworth. Deposits are already taken for the new car.

I went on wikipedia, I did not know TVR had such a long history with multiple models.

They were opening a plant near my town here in Brazil, the crisis killed the process in the middle of construction. Sad

balderz002
07-09-2015, 16:37
I went on wikipedia, I did not know TVR had such a long history with multiple models.

Yeah, bit more than a shed special!

Beatminister
07-09-2015, 17:44
Another candidate could be DeTomaso. The name was sold a while ago and has nothing to do with cars anymore. Someone is making watches (cheap but not too bad) with the name and logo on them. May be they would sell a licence for the old cars for a fair price.

d4ninho
07-09-2015, 17:56
Do not be fooled by licensing, its all blah blah blah.

This game has user created cars so licensing is guff, they could easily create cars with fake names and everything would be fine.
we need more cars as the one's we have now are done and dusted.

TheReaper GT
07-09-2015, 18:06
Do not be fooled by licensing, its all blah blah blah.

This game has user created cars so licensing is guff, they could easily create cars with fake names and everything would be fine.
we need more cars as the one's we have now are done and dusted.

Even real life prototypes and formulas are made up cars, if you have the money and can follow regulations you can run a f1 team if you want. Touring cars are another ball Park and made up cars would make a lot of people lose interest, me included. Your opinion is important but far from the simple truth you imply.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 14:20
I know its been done to death, but DTM. Everyone says that it cant be done due to licensing. But is that just for the Current crop of race cars? Or every DTM spec car since time began? As in, DTM cars from the year 2000 - Mercedes CLK DTM, Opel Astra V8 and Abt Audi TT, or even earlier with the Alfa 155 Ti, Opel Calibra and Mercedes W202?

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 14:33
I know its been done to death, but DTM. Everyone says that it cant be done due to licensing. But is that just for the Current crop of race cars? Or every DTM spec car since time began? As in, DTM cars from the year 2000 - Mercedes CLK DTM, Opel Astra V8 and Abt Audi TT, or even earlier with the Alfa 155 Ti, Opel Calibra and Mercedes W202?

I guess each case is a special case. We have the 190 evo, Sierra and the 320. I think the organization wants to centralize the current season marketing in one game for some reason.

weerufus
23-09-2015, 14:40
Porsche has always been the tough one due to EAsports holding all the rights for them....forever!!

Forza Horizon had a Porsche pack, how did that work? I'm assuming it might have been a one-off megabucks payment from FM to EA

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 14:41
Porsche has always been the tough one due to EAsports holding all the rights for them....forever!!

Forza Horizon had a Porsche pack, how did that work? I'm assuming it might have been a one-off megabucks payment from FM to EA

Pretty much, yeah.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 14:43
Porsche has always been the tough one due to EAsports holding all the rights for them....forever!!

Forza Horizon had a Porsche pack, how did that work? I'm assuming it might have been a one-off megabucks payment from FM to EA

Ea is bound to negotiate, they are not license holders, they are/were license managers for Porsche,which means with the right amount of money you can have Porsches in angry birds of you want.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 14:45
Forza Horizon had a Porsche pack, how did that work? I'm assuming it might have been a one-off megabucks payment from FM to EA

When Forza went onto its 4th, I think IIRC, we had to wait a while to get the Porsche pack, as It mightve been the case that Turn10 had the rights to Ferrari, and EA with Porsche, so a little wheeling and dealing was done (pun intended). I think its the same with 6 isnt it?

Personally, I cant see why a major player like Porsche, or Ferrari, would limit themselves to one game dev. To me that is seriously short sighted.

havocc
23-09-2015, 14:47
Why bother about porsche when you have Ruf? :D

balderz002
23-09-2015, 14:52
Why bother about porsche when you have Ruf? :D

More for the historic cars for me. I doubt there are many historic RUF versions of porkers that I would like to see. Its nice to see something though, even if it isnt quite the real deal.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 14:53
When Forza went onto its 4th, I think IIRC, we had to wait a while to get the Porsche pack, as It mightve been the case that Turn10 had the rights to Ferrari, and EA with Porsche, so a little wheeling and dealing was done (pun intended). I think its the same with 6 isnt it?

Personally, I cant see why a major player like Porsche, or Ferrari, would limit themselves to one game dev. To me that is seriously short sighted.

Forza doesn't have an exclusive Ferrari license, just the 458 as cover car.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 14:53
More for the historic cars for me. I doubt there are many historic RUF versions of porkers that I would like to see. Its nice to see something though, even if it isnt quite the real deal.

But also. Flat Sixes.
And Flat Twelves.

https://media.giphy.com/media/AVilYmB74xhK/giphy.gif

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 14:54
Why bother about porsche when you have Ruf? :D

Lmp1 Le Mans winner and historic cars like the 917. The cayman gt4 race car would be nice too.

havocc
23-09-2015, 15:01
Lmp1 Le Mans winner

Hopefully they won't add Lmp1 Nissan :rolleyes:

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 15:03
Hopefully they won't add Lmp1 Nissan :rolleyes:

If they do, I hope they add it with the two-system hybrid ERS working properly so it's not just a four million euro or some such fancy looking Sentra.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 15:05
Hopefully they won't add Lmp1 Nissan :rolleyes:

The car concept is brilliant, I'm not sure about the team. If they apply the car for lmp1 is because it was good for it. I was really surprised at the race times, being slower than all the lmp2 cars and even some gtlm was a real shame and embarrassment for Nissan.

Swinnyjr
23-09-2015, 15:06
TVR isnt exactly dead, they were bought by a British billionaire where now they are working on a new car with Gordon Murray and Cosworth. Deposits are already taken for the new car.

I went on wikipedia, I did not know TVR had such a long history with multiple models.

The fact that its those two names working on it makes me very excited.
And, in the spirit of TVR, they should name the new car something like: The TVR You what mate!?!?!? *Said, as agressively as possible*

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 15:10
The car concept is brilliant, I'm not sure about the team. If they apply the car for lmp1 is because it was good for it. I was really surprised at the race times, being slower than all the lmp2 cars and even some gtlm was a real shame and embarrassment for Nissan.

Actually, it was a fair success for Nissan. They got lots of good data out of the deal from running a 24 hour test session during a competition. It would have been more disasterous for them to claim they'd stomp everyone and bring a fast piece to the party only to have it break somehow and embarrass them. I won't name names. *cough*919 Debut*cough*

The Nissan car was slow (they claim) because the double hybrid ERS system wasn't working properly that turns the car from a FWD with front wheels ERS to an AWD with AWD ERS when the speedy button or auto ERS is deployed.

Nissan are still trying to figure out how to make this work properly. I hope they do by the time the car races again (if it races again) because it's just one of the neat concepts they employed with the vehicle. But it wasn't a huge resounding failure by any stretch. They knew it was going to be a hard fight without half their drivetrain working as intended.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 15:33
Actually, it was a fair success for Nissan. They got lots of good data out of the deal from running a 24 hour test session during a competition. It would have been more disasterous for them to claim they'd stomp everyone and bring a fast piece to the party only to have it break somehow and embarrass them. I won't name names. *cough*919 Debut*cough*

The Nissan car was slow (they claim) because the double hybrid ERS system wasn't working properly that turns the car from a FWD with front wheels ERS to an AWD with AWD ERS when the speedy button or auto ERS is deployed.

Nissan are still trying to figure out how to make this work properly. I hope they do by the time the car races again (if it races again) because it's just one of the neat concepts they employed with the vehicle. But it wasn't a huge resounding failure by any stretch. They knew it was going to be a hard fight without half their drivetrain working as intended.

I understand that but from a marketing point it makes no sense at all. Test, test, test, compete to win. The amount of money invested in one race doesn't really cut for gather data only. Those makers race to show their brands and inspire people to buy their products and if iI was just a guy who likes to watch some races and saw a lmp1 car not being able to hold its door close, let alone being in the class pace,I'd be very skeptical about the maker's ability to put a solid product together. It was a failure, yes it was. They are suppose to collect that data and make the car competitive during development and than during race. In that order.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 15:39
Mmm, from what I read they really did have massive problems with the ERS system overall (some reports even went as far as saying that they weren't actually running ERS at all in the race, though majority still seems to claim FWD only partial ERS for the most part), and missed development opportunities. The failed first crash test basically prevented them from trying out the car on Silverstone (as they were supposed to) or Spa, so Le Mans was the first time they tried the car in a real situation. Then the ERS problems came, which also meant they had to rely more on the normal brakes of the car, and of course the cooling was set for ERS assisted braking so naturally they promptly overheated, etc. etc...

So yeah, things went badly wrong for them. I'd be really interested in what the car could do with the ERS system working as it should (AWD and full power) and enough races underneath its belt for them to trust the machinery. =)

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 15:41
Same here, I think the car is awesome, and have lots of potential.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 15:56
I understand that but from a marketing point it makes no sense at all. Test, test, test, compete to win. The amount of money invested in one race doesn't really cut for gather data only. Those makers race to show their brands and inspire people to buy their products and if iI was just a guy who likes to watch some races and saw a lmp1 car not being able to hold its door close, let alone being in the class pace,I'd be very skeptical about the maker's ability to put a solid product together. It was a failure, yes it was. They are suppose to collect that data and make the car competitive during development and than during race. In that order.

This is a narrow viewpoint. It often doesn't work this way in endurance sportscar racing. In the 6h WEC race at COTA I wouldn't think Ferrari customer cars are awful because the the door latch broke during a pitstop. And I certainly don't think E-Tron Quattro's are poorly constructed because the 9's window exploded at Spa.

I get the fan standpoint that the car was slow and so your faith in the car is low. No problem.

However, running LeMans is well worth the investment to any manufacturer serious about making a contending vehicle and Nissan is. They saw what the competition had with the best of this generation of LMP1 (which will be nerfed again by rules soon).

They saw how well the car works with what they knew and accepted was working. The second half of the ERS system was deliberately disabled. As for the ones claiming upon they didn't use ERS at all, I'm pretty sure it was at least being used on the primary car during practice and qualifying if not the race and was functional as it was barely clinging to the back of the Rebellions. Which isn't bad at all for a half-working race car with probably massive latent understeer.

You can't just develop a millions bux race car and "Go out and win". Nissan had a game plan they stuck to. They wanted the car to run despite the setbacks and changing or reducing a ton of their testing programme. They wanted it in LeMans for a reason, and that reason was because they will not get competitive race data during localized testing. What happened with Toyota before was *special*. Both Nissan and Porsche proved how difficult it is to just re-appear at the pinnacle of sports car racing with new innovations that don't have proven reliability.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 16:04
Shin you have a knack to misread, maybe in purpose and than post a wall of text as response. I really think you got when I said their should be competitive, but you choose not to recognize that. Their game plan is to win and if you are not racing to win, you're not racing at all.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 16:11
Whoa, this has moved on a bit since I left work and got home!

So if Forza only have blagging rights on the 458 as their poster girl, is it just because Ferrari charge through the nose for their cars, that SMS have held back? I for one would love to have a 333SP in the LMP 900 class!

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 16:13
Shin you have a knack to misread, maybe in purpose and than post a wall of text as response. I really think you got when I said their should be competitive, but you choose not to recognize that. Their game plan is to win and if you are not racing to win, you're not racing at all.

The point of playing chess is to win as well. But to win at Chess you need to make the right moves.

Nissan knew they weren't going to win the LM24. They didn't go around touting their car as the next big victor. It was obvious with the setbacks and technical issues to almost everyone it would be a miracle drive to even place well in the class at all.
That doesn't mean they aren't racing to win. The data they got from that experience is worth far more than a bajillion test sessions anywhere else, and it'll be used to improve so that they can win.

Things take time to do. The whole mentality of "The car shouldn't show up if it's not going to win." is flawed. In motorsport there's more to winning than just being the first place guy. Nissan already "won" by being invited to participate and fielding three cars. There's so much more to this sport than just crossing the line in first place and being absolute fastest hero. If that was the case, nobody would bother showing up to races to field race cars. Especially not people trying to innovate with very little or no data on reliability.

They had goals, and they met them. What more to winning is there than that? Maybe with that, they'll go out and win the next race. Who knows. We don't know. But to say they shouldn't have even shown up because the car wasn't going to be competitive is to tell Toyota to not show up for the whole season this year. Or to tell Rebellion to not show up. It's not a good statement to make. These teams know they aren't going to finish first overall in their classes.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 16:15
Whoa, this has moved on a bit since I left work and got home!

So if Forza only have blagging rights on the 458 as their poster girl, is it just because Ferrari charge through the nose for their cars, that SMS have held back? I for one would love to have a 333SP in the LMP 900 class!

Yep, it's pretty much it. The new Ford GT is the same, forza has it as cover car and it's exclusive for a little, but not forever and the race car is not exclusive at all. Ford is not a fan of exclusive rights about their products. SMS has a good relationship with Ferrari, what makes me think that money is the only purulento here.

Swinnyjr
23-09-2015, 16:26
Actually, it was a fair success for Nissan. They got lots of good data out of the deal from running a 24 hour test session during a competition. It would have been more disasterous for them to claim they'd stomp everyone and bring a fast piece to the party only to have it break somehow and embarrass them. I won't name names. *cough*919 Debut*cough*

The Nissan car was slow (they claim) because the double hybrid ERS system wasn't working properly that turns the car from a FWD with front wheels ERS to an AWD with AWD ERS when the speedy button or auto ERS is deployed.

Nissan are still trying to figure out how to make this work properly. I hope they do by the time the car races again (if it races again) because it's just one of the neat concepts they employed with the vehicle. But it wasn't a huge resounding failure by any stretch. They knew it was going to be a hard fight without half their drivetrain working as intended.

That Kers issue making it a Front wheel drive car also caused an issue with the suspension being so stiff, the cars would bounce and wheelhop so violently when they hit kerbs that it damaged the car.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 16:34
Its a shame Ferrari are being so greedy, if it is the case they ask so much. It's not like they need it!

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 16:37
Its a shame Ferrari are being so greedy, if it is the case they ask so much. It's not like they need it!

They must have an license manager that regulates the price based on company value and position in some rankings. Earlier this year their brand was voted the most important and remembered name in the world, that must had a huge impact on name value and marketing share.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 16:48
Just quickly googled Ferrari licence computer games, and all I could find were a few returns on ea own Porsche and turn 10/micro$oft own Ferrari (on 360 and pc for some reason?). Admittedly they are all from around 2011 when Forza 4 came out without Porsche (iirc?)

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 16:59
Just quickly googled Ferrari licence computer games, and all I could find were a few returns on ea own Porsche and turn 10/micro$oft own Ferrari (on 360 and pc for some reason?). Admittedly they are all from around 2011 when Forza 4 came out without Porsche (iirc?)

There's a full Ferrari game for xbox 360,made by sms using shift engine.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 17:05
There's a full Ferrari game for xbox 360,made by sms using shift engine.Gotta remember though that that project took forever for them to do, it was started before Shift IIRC, so the licensing negotiations for it were probably mostly done ages ago.

Neil Hopwood
23-09-2015, 17:06
There's a full Ferrari game for xbox 360,made by sms using shift engine.

Which was started before the Microsoft deal IIRC.

TD:FRL was put on hold for quite some time. Pretty sure it was because of financial issues at atari.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 18:41
Does,anyone know of any other race series that are solely gaming wise, with one company?

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 18:44
Does,anyone know of any other race series that are solely gaming wise, with one company?

Stock car Brazil. Grid autosport had one real car,one made up car and not a single track. But as far as I know the license for that is not hard to get.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 18:46
Game Stock Car (or Stock Car Extreme as it's known today) is the premier game series for Stock Car Brazil. Didn't know that Grid Autosport had some though, so apparently that's not exclusive either.

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 18:53
Game Stock Car (or Stock Car Extreme as it's known today) is the premier game series for Stock Car Brazil. Didn't know that Grid Autosport had some though, so apparently that's not exclusive either.

Yep, they have a license but it's not exclusive.

balderz002
23-09-2015, 20:17
Anybody have any thoughts on the 1990's JTCC? If we cant get the late 90's BTCC that we crave (TOCA2 anyone?) then this could be interesting, no?

balderz002
23-09-2015, 20:20
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7iElXd80JfY

TheReaper GT
23-09-2015, 20:20
Does,anyone know of any other race series that are solely gaming wise, with one company?

But assetto Corsa have Ferrari cars. Obviously been an Italian studio helped a lot but it proves that there's no exclusivity in those licenses.

Akra
24-09-2015, 07:36
Game Stock Car (or Stock Car Extreme as it's known today) is the premier game series for Stock Car Brazil. Didn't know that Grid Autosport had some though, so apparently that's not exclusive either.

Formula Truck as well.

balderz002
24-09-2015, 17:33
Anyone any ideas about the licencing of Lister? Not seen them in many racing games, and feel the Storm GT would be great foil for a Viper GTS-R

TheReaper GT
24-09-2015, 17:44
Anyone any ideas about the licencing of Lister? Not seen them in many racing games, and feel the Storm GT would be great foil for a Viper GTS-R

They still making the Knobbly so maybe it's in reach.

Raven403
24-09-2015, 17:48
Anyone any ideas about the licencing of Lister? Not seen them in many racing games, and feel the Storm GT would be great foil for a Viper GTS-R

Are we supposed to get a Viper GTS-R?

cmch15
24-09-2015, 18:00
It is a shame that Forza /Microsoft have got V8 Supercars, although we have the Ford Falcon coming I assume that is part of the Ford license?! I watched a video of V8's in Forza 6, it just doesn't do it justice.

TheReaper GT
24-09-2015, 18:01
It is a shame that Forza /Microsoft have got V8 Supercars, although we have the Ford Falcon coming I assume that is part of the Ford license?! I watched a video of V8's in Forza 6, it just doesn't do it justice.

For some reason the default tune in forza is slow as a snail, really bad. Top speed 177mph, very strange.

cmch15
24-09-2015, 18:05
Anybody have any thoughts on the 1990's JTCC? If we cant get the late 90's BTCC that we crave (TOCA2 anyone?) then this could be interesting, no?

Don't know if it is still happening but a '99 Laguna is mentioned in the Renault license announcement so maybe a Ford could make an appearance in the future?!

TheReaper GT
24-09-2015, 18:07
Don't know if it is still happening but a '99 Laguna is mentioned in the Renault license announcement so maybe a Ford could make an appearance in the future?!

AFAIK it will, with both Focus BTCC and Falcon V8SC

cmch15
24-09-2015, 18:29
Anybody have any thoughts on the 1990's JTCC? If we cant get the late 90's BTCC that we crave (TOCA2 anyone?) then this could be interesting, no?


AFAIK it will, with both Focus BTCC and Falcon V8SC


For some reason the default tune in forza is slow as a snail, really bad. Top speed 177mph, very strange.

You're quick, I was still writing haha..

Yeah, that's not too much slower but that is similar in Pcars where default downforce etc is too high on many setups, I guess to make them easy to drive. I am in danger of sparking another Pcars/Forza debate and I haven't played Forza, but you can tell how something plays just watching a video.

The Focus and BMW are a strange choice as the Laguna has nothing to go with it. A Mondeo, 320, or an A4 from the late 90's would complement it nicely. Licenses and corporates annoy the hell out of me! Why they make things so difficult is beyond me. Why wouldn't you want your brand showcased in as many areas as possible?

TheReaper GT
24-09-2015, 18:34
You're quick, I was still writing haha..

Yeah, that's not too much slower but that is similar in Pcars where default downforce etc is too high on many setups, I guess to make them easy to drive. I am in danger of sparking another Pcars/Forza debate and I haven't played Forza, but you can tell how something plays just watching a video.

The Focus and BMW are a strange choice as the Laguna has nothing to go with it. A Mondeo, 320, or an A4 from the late 90's would complement it nicely. Licenses and corporates annoy the hell out of me! Why they make things so difficult is beyond me. Why wouldn't you want your brand showcased in as many areas as possible?

Some people say it is about money, but I really doubt it, if those licenses could make money enough to make any diference in a multinational car company budget they would be impossible to get, period. I think some developers had took some liberties in the pass and that reflected in how they wanna se their products.

balderz002
24-09-2015, 19:37
Are we supposed to get a Viper GTS-R?

No, but I was thinking they would go great against each other. Same time frame, both great GT race cars with bloody massive naturally aspirated engines.

But when they were racing the GT2 class in the early noughties, and even before, in the late nineties, they didn't have many others to race against. Maybe the 911 GT2, or a 360 Modena. So it would be an easy class/timeframe to cover IMO.

Oh. Nearly forgot, with regards to TVR (Or Trevor as I call them), I wonder how easy it would be to get a Speed 12?

TheReaper GT
24-09-2015, 19:41
That can be tricky, no one knows who had the rights after the bankruptcy.

Slowsley
25-09-2015, 07:01
I bet those VAG licenses are going for cheap right now. Could soon be the time to scoop up the Porsche license?