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View Full Version : What do people think of this? can't say i've noticed it.



foxy2020
11-09-2015, 07:08
I think the tracks in PCars are fantastic, bit of a thread over on gtplanet i came across saying Monza isn't very accurate? I think it looks great.:confused:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/monza-inaccuracies.334115/

NemethR
11-09-2015, 08:50
Tracks will never be accurate, not even if laser scanned.

foxy2020
11-09-2015, 08:53
Tracks will never be accurate, not even if laser scanned.

Really?

Ian Bell
11-09-2015, 08:55
Monza was worked in detail initially by CAD then by a lot of detail input from pro race drivers. Nic had a lot to do with tweaking every corner for accuracy.

foxy2020
11-09-2015, 09:00
Monza was worked in detail initially by CAD then by a lot of detail input from pro race drivers. Nic had a lot to do with tweaking every corner for accuracy.

Fantastic! cheers for the reply!

I think Monza is great in Project Cars.

Silraed
11-09-2015, 09:02
The second Lesmo feels like it has a little bit too much banking, but I have no experience of the track first hand in real life and know that what our eyes see can vary a hell of a lot.

It might not be the most accurate reproduction of Monza to some people, but I have to say it is the most enjoyable reproduction I have ever raced in a game and I give major props to the team that modelled it.

Ian Bell
11-09-2015, 09:11
The second Lesmo feels like it has a little bit too much banking, but I have no experience of the track first hand in real life and know that what our eyes see can vary a hell of a lot.

It might not be the most accurate reproduction of Monza to some people, but I have to say it is the most enjoyable reproduction I have ever raced in a game and I give major props to the team that modelled it.

That was one of the areas where he and maybe a famous relative of his told us to add more banking.

But yes FOV in games can distort the look a lot.

danowat
11-09-2015, 09:14
Love it when people who have never experienced a track in real life can say the one in game is inaccurate.

Sankyo
11-09-2015, 09:16
Love it when people who have never experienced a track in real life can say the one in game is inaccurate.

Truth is subjective and relative :)

Sankyo
11-09-2015, 09:18
Tracks will never be accurate, not even if laser scanned.


Really?
Laser scan data is never copied 1:1 to the game, it is only a basis for creating the track in the game. So there can still be approximations, deviations and mistakes in a 'laser scanned' in-game track.

Silraed
11-09-2015, 09:19
That was one of the areas where he and maybe a famous relative of his told us to add more banking.

But yes FOV in games can distort the look a lot.

I have to say Monza had always just been one of those tracks that I respected for it's Formula 1 heritage but never really enjoyed on a personal level. But your game has changed that, I would rather not think about how many hours I have spent trying to nail the braking zone for that first chicane and that little bit of banking on the second Lesmo provides an immense level of satisfaction when you hook it up right that I have rarely experienced in another game.

Tomcul
11-09-2015, 09:21
Feels much the same as gran turismo version to me.. Obviously apart from the high kerbs that have been introduced..

FLX81
11-09-2015, 09:25
Imho Monza is fine. The sausage curbs seem to be a bit too big, but if you are hitting those, you have bigger problems than track accurancy. Now Silverstone, on the other hand... http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9489-Silverstone-Discussion-Thread&p=822148&viewfull=1#post822148

Mascot
11-09-2015, 09:29
I love the whole laser scanning debate. Unless I'm wearing grooves around a real track in a real car day after day and know it like the back of my hand, why the hell should any minor inaccuracies in a virtual recreation bother me? I'm only ever aware of them when somebody points them out, and even then... so what? The track is what it is. I know a lot of "serious" sim racers would see any inaccuracies as a sign of the forthcoming apocalypse, but to be honest I personally couldn't care less.

Cheesenium
11-09-2015, 09:32
Even when you are using laser scanned, laser scan is also susceptible to errors. It isnt a perfect technology that will 1:1 recreate everything as there are many factors like sudden change in air temperature, distortion effects, inaccuracies with slopes and loss of accuracy with certain surface that has an impact on your laser scan point cloud. In the mean time, the laser scanned result is heavily depended on algorithm that process the zillions of nodes from laser scan to present them in a point cloud. If that algorithm is rubbish, you get a terrible laser scan result. It is not an end all solution to survey a track, a mine or a site but I wont deny some of it's advantages. A carefully scratched made track with driver feedback can be as good if not better than laser scanned result.

In actual field work in civil engineering, laser scanned is used in conjunction with other technologies to verify the authenticity of the data collected.

Those who were in WMD would know there was one car that was laser scanned, laser scanned model was so inaccurate until SMS had to made it from scratch.

KK78
11-09-2015, 09:45
What he said, even a lazer scanned track is only valid as long as it stays like that and maintenance/changes soon make those inaccurate too.

Monza in PCars is a superb rendition because it is fun and that is what I bought the game for.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-09-2015, 11:21
Yup, laser scans aren't perfect, but I still think it's the best we have available currently at getting those smaller details visible for the track artists, ones that are really damn difficult to see from pictures and videos. The laser scanned tracks in pCARS just stand out a little compared to the others, it's hard to put your finger on it but they just have a slightly more "natural" and "organic" feel to them in the way the bumps and small camber and elevations changes work. So not absolutely perfect obviously, but very very good.

foxy2020
11-09-2015, 12:03
The person saying that on GTplanet hasn't ever driven Monza, it seems they are basing it purely against GT6.

Schadows
11-09-2015, 12:32
But yes FOV in games can distort the look a lot.That, and the knowledge from the people complaining probably comes from whatching races on TV, which is already known to make everything looks flat.

Some pcars track are surely not as accurate as laser scanned versions from the competition (which are not 100% faithful to reality either), but frankly it's not like a really care.
I took part in a few track days at spa, and nothing shocks me when I drive on it in the game. As for the other tracks ... as long as everyone run on the same track that is no problem for me.

cluck
11-09-2015, 12:34
Truth is subjective and relative :)And don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia, especially when it comes to the angle of banking at Nordschleife's Karussell ;)

danowat
11-09-2015, 12:38
I've driven, ridden and cycled round Snetterton more times than I care to remember in real life, and the PCars version is pretty much a carbon copy of the real life track.

Akra
11-09-2015, 13:06
The MSV tracks are almost perfect in PCARS. Monza isn't too bad either. The worst by miles is Laguna Seca unfortunately. But I suspect that one was made very early in the development of the game, so has since been surpassed by later developments.

Sankyo
11-09-2015, 13:08
The MSV tracks are almost perfect in PCARS. Monza isn't too bad either. The worst by miles is Laguna Seca unfortunately. But I suspect that one was made very early in the development of the game, so has since been surpassed by later developments.
I remember seeing a real-life vs pCARS comparison video for Laguna Seca and it was actually pretty good?

Akra
11-09-2015, 13:21
I remember seeing a real-life vs pCARS comparison video for Laguna Seca and it was actually pretty good?

Trackside scenery is pretty spot on, nothing serious. But the track surface is not unfortunately.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jc51w_VCzE

Turn 4 the radius and banking are wrong.
Turn 5 the banking is wrong and the exit of the corner is profiled wrong
Turn 6 the elevations are wrong
The straight between 6 and 7, the elevations are wrong - pCARs levels out about 100m too early
Turn 7 (the kink) radius is wrong
Turn 8 (corkscrew) the elevations and banking throughout are wrong
Turn 9 the banking and radius are wrong
Turn 10 the banking is wrong

It's not the worst track ever made, and 10 year ago it'd be the best version ever made. But the sim racing community (including SMS) has moved on a long way. SMS other tracks such as the MSV tracks are so so far ahead of their Laguna Seca. :) I'm not moaning about Laguna Seca, just pointing out that it isn't SMS best work and could do with a rework to bring it up to SMS latest standards. :)

mpadula
11-09-2015, 13:31
I spent hours driving around Watkins Glen in anger.

The track is an accurate enough representation that I can pick up on subtle visual cues for braking or turn-in. Turn 1 is great, though I'm not sure where the loss of traction at exit is coming from. The paint change from yellow to white at the bottom of the esses as turn-in for turn 3 is accurate for instance. pCars has done a great job with the concrete patches as well. If you place the right side of the car on pavement vs. on the concrete at turn 9 there is much, much more grip. The toe of the boot is excellent. Though there's more run-off at the top IRL, well done.

Given that, turn 10 should have more camber and be wider at exit with rougher kerbs. In fact, the kerbs at the exit of 10 are darn near deadly. Given a choice between hitting them and running wide, run wide every time. Not so in game. Turn 8 (the heel) should be wider and faster with a lot more grip at exit. The middle of the esses sure feels wider IRL particularly between 2 and 3, and the bus stop also feels wider IRL. IRL I have a memory of a lot more time and a lot more "rotation" while transitioning from turning right-to-left.

But this is all pretty subtle stuff.

This is the only IRL comparison I can make unless they bring Mt Tremblant in game. Given that, I think they've done a great job.

Jan Studenski
11-09-2015, 13:56
All tracks ingame are pretty well made

I think Laser Scanning would be nice, especially coz scanning for bumps ^^, but im happy how the tracks are in Project CARS.

Imo before PCARS has all tracks laser scanned, i would rather see other areas "upgraded" (ie Safety Car, Real Weather, AI Agression, etc)

R74NN
11-09-2015, 13:59
In pCARS laser scanned tracks (Brands, Oulton...) are better in that way that they provide more surface detail and the FFB feels more alive. Many of the other tracks lack this detail and make me feel like on the ice when driving. So no, I don't care about exact banking or angle of the corner, I like laser scanned tracks for their detail, even if the mesh is greatly reduced, it is still day and night difference in feeling.

And yes, some tracks are smoother than others in real life too, but for instance in-game Silverstone is just a rink.

Bealdor
11-09-2015, 14:26
Trackside scenery is pretty spot on, nothing serious. But the track surface is not unfortunately.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jc51w_VCzE

This video is more than 1 year old and was one of the reasons why the track surface was redone during development. ;)

217866



Turn 4 the radius and banking are wrong.
Turn 5 the banking is wrong and the exit of the corner is profiled wrong
Turn 6 the elevations are wrong
The straight between 6 and 7, the elevations are wrong - pCARs levels out about 100m too early
Turn 7 (the kink) radius is wrong
Turn 8 (corkscrew) the elevations and banking throughout are wrong
Turn 9 the banking and radius are wrong
Turn 10 the banking is wrong

It's not the worst track ever made, and 10 year ago it'd be the best version ever made. But the sim racing community (including SMS) has moved on a long way. SMS other tracks such as the MSV tracks are so so far ahead of their Laguna Seca. :) I'm not moaning about Laguna Seca, just pointing out that it isn't SMS best work and could do with a rework to bring it up to SMS latest standards. :)

TBH most of your points are a result of different FOVs, especially the banking and corner radius "issues". Look at the perceived track width in both videos, they're different.

Lawndarts
12-09-2015, 03:32
I've raced a lot at Laguna Seca, the track it pretty well done in pcars. What's important is that they capture to personality of the turns like turn 3 deceptively flat, and the exit to 9 has the off camber right at the exit, feared by many drivers, and the flat slick turn 11.

Turn six is more blind and there is more of a long hump leading up the hill in 7 but I still drive it like I do in real life.

Pappa_Stig
13-09-2015, 02:18
I made that thread, and the observations weren't based on Gran Turismo, I simply mentioned that even the GT version of the track, dating back to pre 2010, looked closer to real life than the Pcars version. I based it on Assetto Corsa's laser scanned version. It doesn't bother me that the track isn't accurate, but it's funny to see how many people jumped to the game's defence, as seems to be the norm when someone points out a flaw here. The biggest difference, and you can even go on bloody google street view to see it, it's that obvious, is the banked oval. In Pcars, the oval is at least twice as tall on it's outer edge to real life or AC. The amount of banking in most corners seems a fair way off too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D1H7_UgHVM

I also owned Test Drive: FRL back on PS3, and the Monza on that had the same differences. This track seems to be an updated version of that track (no doubt the same one in the shift series).

Sheldon
13-09-2015, 05:38
I made that thread, and the observations weren't based on Gran Turismo, I simply mentioned that even the GT version of the track, dating back to pre 2010, looked closer to real life than the Pcars version. I based it on Assetto Corsa's laser scanned version. It doesn't bother me that the track isn't accurate, but it's funny to see how many people jumped to the game's defence, as seems to be the norm when someone points out a flaw here. The biggest difference, and you can even go on bloody google street view to see it, it's that obvious, is the banked oval. In Pcars, the oval is at least twice as tall on it's outer edge to real life or AC. The amount of banking in most corners seems a fair way off too.


I also owned Test Drive: FRL back on PS3, and the Monza on that had the same differences. This track seems to be an updated version of that track (no doubt the same one in the shift series).
I love AC's version of Monza! but even though Pcars version isn't perfect I find it still enjoyable, it's my favorite track in all of Pcars. Now if only we could put AC's Nordschleife into Pcars..
Apparently iRacing is getting the Nordschleife(all variations) in November, I'd love to see all three versions in a comparison video like this.

Pappa_Stig
13-09-2015, 05:58
I love AC's version of Monza! but even though Pcars version isn't perfect I find it still enjoyable, it's my favorite track in all of Pcars. Now if only we could put AC's Nordschleife into Pcars..
Apparently iRacing is getting the Nordschleife(all variations) in November, I'd love to see all three versions in a comparison video like this.

Yeah I also don't mind that it's not as accurate, and I still enjoy driving it in the game. I enjoy driving all the tracks in Pcars, and Monza isn't the only one with inaccuracies. I pointed it out in the GTP thread to see if anyone had noticed any other tracks with inaccuracies and to see what they thought of it, not to bash the game or anything like that. Pcars is currently my favourite racing game.

Kunos have ocd levels of attention to detail, which is why AC's tracks are so damn good. I'd love to see this kind of detail in the circuits in Pcars.

Sankyo
13-09-2015, 06:45
... it's funny to see how many people jumped to the game's defence, as seems to be the norm when someone points out a flaw here.
So you're proposing that everyone always agrees when someone posts his or her opinion of the game? What happened to the freedom of disagreeing? :)

Pappa_Stig
13-09-2015, 06:53
So you're proposing that everyone always agrees when someone posts his or her opinion of the game? What happened to the freedom of disagreeing? :)

No I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Some people here just seem to get offended whenever someone points out one of the game's flaws. I personally don't care if people have the blinkers on and think there's nothing at all wrong with the game. I'm just personally a perfectionist, and while I love this game, I have no problem accepting that it has many flaws. If the flaws are discussed, then perhaps they won't be present in the next Pcars.

Sheldon
13-09-2015, 07:17
Kunos have ocd levels of attention to detail, which is why AC's tracks are so damn good. I'd love to see this kind of detail in the circuits in Pcars.
Their attention to detail is almost scary. (https://youtu.be/8pOtKfoHnSk?t=48)

Pappa_Stig
13-09-2015, 07:31
Hahahahahaha the reaction of the German dude on the phone was priceless. That looks amazing with oculus! I hope SMS can get Pcars working with Morpheus when it's released, that'd be the greatest thing in console racing history lol!

marshma11ow8
13-09-2015, 07:49
Well it's not as bad as the nordschleife in forza 5

marcdxn
13-09-2015, 11:09
Love it when people who have never experienced a track in real life can say the one in game is inaccurate.

I always wonder what exactly they are comparing it too, like if they are comparing this to previous racing games whats to say it wasn't them who had it wrong
But i do think its an odd point for GT planet to make, i guess it depends how critical they want to be

thepharcyde
13-09-2015, 11:19
So you're proposing that everyone always agrees when someone posts his or her opinion of the game? What happened to the freedom of disagreeing? :)

He might be Russian ergo a communist lol.....ps i gest viva la democracy

Jake Fangio
13-09-2015, 11:52
I'm no fanboy of pcars or any other sim for that matter.They all have there pro's and con's,but pcars tracks are a pro.They all look good and drive very nice,and the laser scanned ones stand out.And being as i will never race on any of them,i don't give a flying *uck for petty pathetic differences from real life.some people really need to GET A LIFE.

Ralph B
13-09-2015, 13:30
I've driven the Nordschleife in several popular sims and additionally in real life. Well, the one in pCars and Assetto Corsa are shurely the best, but it never can give the same driving sensation as in real live - at least not with an avarage gaming equippement a normal user can affort. The lack of actual g-forces can only be simulated optically and gives only a small glimps of what's going on in a real car.
However, within that limits it feels a good as can be.
Apart from that I don't like the physics in AC very much (don't get it wrong, it doesn't mean, that it's bad - just a matter of personal taste), I don't see and feel remarkable differencies in the laser-scanned AC version and the "handmade" one of pCars. I think, the marginal differencies are not really important, as they are ironed out by the above mentioned limits of a sim.

In this context I'm remembering a track from old games, which I know very well from real race experience. It's the Austrian Salzburgring track (I really whished, this would be created for pCars some days). There was a version for good old GPL, still without the chicane. I think, it was the work of a guy named Ronny Bresich (no quarantie, that it's spelled correct). It was fine for it's time, but compared to current standart it looks pretty basic. And there is a newer version with the chicane from Com8 for ISI based sims like GTR, GTL ... and even a conversion to AC. This one looks pretty good and is very close to the real track in optical appearance. But comparing the virtual driving experience with my real live experience, the stone old GPL interpretation feels ways more accurate than the optically great version from Com8. Specially the "Fahrerlagerkurve" and "Nocksteinkehre" simply feel wrong in the new version. Can't exactly say, why, but for my opinion the radius for both turns is to narrow, while the banking is far to much. If you drive them in reality, most cars tend to understeer like hell and the turns seems to extend endless. In the GPL version this is implemented very good, while in the new version it feels like ... simply a turn as thousand others - without hights an flaws. It's some kind of characteric in reality, but completely missing in one version, even the optical impression feigns something different.
So far about modern technologies and accurateness in general ... :D

Rockgear
13-09-2015, 14:22
I think there are many differeces between AC´s laser scanned and Pcars handmade Nordschleife. Some corners are just very different. For example "hitmisshit" just before the "Wehrseife" are very different, Pcars is very round there whilst AC has a little bit of a straight in there. Then the second corner in the beginning. AC: Pedal to the metal with all GT3s except Nissan GT-R, it goes! PCars: Brake for that corner or you will fail. The same for the light turn just before "Aremberg" right after "Schwedenkreuz". You can drive through that in AC much faster. Don´t saying this or that is more accurate, just saying there are big differences. I like the AC Version more to be honest.

By the way: Nürburgring. I think the Mercedes Arena has got a little bit too short. No, never driven but walked about it whilst Rock am Ring and 24hr race. i really think the long left turn is a little bit too short. Still the Track is pretty much fun.

Pappa_Stig
13-09-2015, 23:00
I'm no fanboy of pcars or any other sim for that matter.They all have there pro's and con's,but pcars tracks are a pro.They all look good and drive very nice,and the laser scanned ones stand out.And being as i will never race on any of them,i don't give a flying *uck for petty pathetic differences from real life.some people really need to GET A LIFE.

You must be great at parties... "I go on internet forums to tell people I don't know to get a life, because I'm just cool like that".

Kelderek
14-09-2015, 11:40
I think the tracks in PCars are fantastic, bit of a thread over on gtplanet i came across saying Monza isn't very accurate? I think it looks great.:confused:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/monza-inaccuracies.334115/

I just love it when a poster from Tasmania (=pretty far from Monza) is discussing the banking of curves he has (very likely) never seen in real life... much less driven in real life.
He is "trying to find some photos for comparison"? Comparison with what? With the GT6 version? Judging banking from photos is impossible and using that as a basis for judging the accuracy of a track you have never seen in real life is pretty pointless.