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Zeke Bewlay
17-09-2015, 01:16
I'm bumping this post up from Xbox forum to this general discussion thread because I did not see a reasonable response to this reasonable question. Also wanted to alert people to issue with Steering Gain settings that caught me out (and others as well) and may save other people some time.

1. Steering gain - WTF

This is post over on Xbox forum - http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38435-Steering-Gain-what-is-it-and-FFB-at-100-why&highlight=steering+gain
There's a nice diagram in original post and here is an extract.
My question is the same. Why have tyre force and steering gain? Won't one or the other do?


Steering Gain - what is it and FFB at 100 why

I am trying to get my head round the purpose of the new Steering Gain

Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Viljoen
Steering Gain the gain (multiplier) applied to all steering effects (steering force, jolts, kerb rumble etc) after they have been mixed. For a clean more detailed experience set at 1.0 or below, for stronger feedback at the expense of clipping set higher (maximum value 5).
Where in the chain does it occur, as if it is a multiplier I am assuming it is at the very end of the chain or does it come before spindle, and why has it been introduced when we already have TF.

Whether we multiply at the beginning by increasing TF higher is this not same as leaving TF alone and increasing Gain

Confusion over Steering gain settings

In the course of playing with FFB after patch 3.0 I could not work out how some people could possibly drive a wheel with FFB and tyre force (TF) both set to 100. For me the wheel was so 'heavy' as to be almost undriveable (Fanatic GT3 V2). I generally use FFB 100 and TF 20-30. As other have noted (e.g. Titzon Toast) Steering Gain (SG) appears to default to different levels on different wheels, some the recommended 1.0 and others 5.0. If SG 1.0 then TF is OK at 100. If SG is 5 then TF should probably be lower. (in my opinion of course).
In the global FFB settings (Options > Controls > Calibrate Force Feedback) the 'Default' set up is TF 100 & SG 5.00. 'Classic' is TF 100 & SG is 1.00. This is on PS4 at least. I don't know why the new 'Default' has SG at 5.0 when its clearly recommended to set it at 1.0 or less in the Patch 3.0 notes!

Pappa_Stig
17-09-2015, 02:13
I have ffb and tyre force at 100, and steering gain at 0.80, using a Fanatec CSR. I noticed after reading up about what everything did that once I turned gain down to under 1.00 I had no more issues with clipping and could set the in-car ffb settings to have enough strength and detail to feel what the car was doing.

3800racingfool
17-09-2015, 02:15
For me it's easiest to describe it in terms of audio.

Your steering wheel is a speaker. Tire force is a radio with an adjustable pre-out. Steering gain is the amplifier that goes between the radio(tire force) and the speaker(your wheel).

The radio pre-out adjustment (tire force) affects the quality of the signal being sent to the amplifier (gain). The lower the tire force, the lesser the signal quality to the amplifier. The higher the tire force, the higher the signal quality to the amplifier. 100 is considered dead-center. Above/below that will either add or subtract from the default signal level. Increasing the tire force will increase the dynamic range of the higher end of the FFB spectrum and may allow you to feel subtle things in the road that you wouldn't feel normally. However, it will also increase the dynamic range of the lower end of the spectrum too which could lead to distortion (aka: clipping) and the blowing out of effects (lower end is usually easier to overdo than higher end). The other individual options may allow you to adjust the power of the effects at each end of the spectrum to an extent (usually by taking the lower end out) to help compensate for some distortion, however that doesn't mean you should set the tire force to 200 and then try and weed out a blown out lower end. Just use this setting with care and if you can crank it a bit higher without clipping and causing things to feel too "heavy" (aka: the lower end is becoming overpowering) then go for it. If you can only leave it set at 100 or have to move a bit lower then try to play with some of the other options to see if you can remove some of the lower-end effect strength but don't be afraid to lower the TF setting if you have to.

Now that I've got your head swimming, we'll move on to the amplifier (steering gain). The only thing the amplifier does is takes the pre-out input (tire force) and multiply it by X (the steering gain setting) and then outputs that to your wheel. Essentially it takes the FFB calculations and makes them "louder". This differs from the tire force because you're not actually affecting the FFB system's dynamic range at all. You're just causing the effects to be stronger. You won't add any additional effects or feel any more subtlety in the road by increasing the gain setting. You'll just take whatever effects you have and make them stronger.

In the end, overdoing either setting can lead to clipping and overblown effects. However they both work in different ways and, if they do cause clipping, they're doing it for entirely different reasons.


So what should you set it to? First start off with the gain set to 1.0 as this is the same as "no gain". You put X in, you get X out (X*1=X). Then adjust your Tire Force to an acceptable level. Try to get as much detail out of your FFB as possible but do not allow it to clip at all. Once you've done this you can then worry about adjusting the gain. Typically, with most wheels, you won't have to adjust the gain at all and can just leave it at 1 and be happy. Other times, again depending on your wheel, you may have to turn it up or down a touch (like .1 or so) to get a bit stronger feeling out of the FFB if so desired. Again just try to keep it from clipping.


Finally, the rule of thumb is:

FFB Strength = Cannot cause clipping. (it's basically the same as the FFB strength slider in your wheel's settings in Windows)
Tire Force = Can cause clipping. (adjusts how much the effects are felt as well as how dynamic they are)
Steering Gain = Can cause clipping. (is the final multiplier/amplifier for the FFB. Basically it's Tire Force*Steering Gain = FFB. That's an extremely simplified equation but it's a good way to think of things.)


Hopefully that answers your question.

Pappa_Stig
17-09-2015, 02:19
Excellent explanation ^

Zeke Bewlay
17-09-2015, 04:11
Thanks, great explanation. In practice I find it hard to tell the difference between high TF & low SG or vice versa but I accept that the former seems the logical choice and am using it now.
From what you say the 'Default' SG setting of 5.0 in patch 3 really does not make sense and I reckon should be changed back to 1.0 in future.


For me it's easiest to describe it in terms of audio.

Your steering wheel is a speaker. Tire force is a radio with an adjustable pre-out. Steering gain is the amplifier that goes between the radio(tire force) and the speaker(your wheel).

The radio pre-out adjustment (tire force) affects the quality of the signal being sent to the amplifier (gain). The lower the tire force, the lesser the signal quality to the amplifier. The higher the tire force, the higher the signal quality to the amplifier. 100 is considered dead-center. Above/below that will either add or subtract from the default signal level. Increasing the tire force will increase the dynamic range of the higher end of the FFB spectrum and may allow you to feel subtle things in the road that you wouldn't feel normally. However, it will also increase the dynamic range of the lower end of the spectrum too which could lead to distortion (aka: clipping) and the blowing out of effects (lower end is usually easier to overdo than higher end). The other individual options may allow you to adjust the power of the effects at each end of the spectrum to an extent (usually by taking the lower end out) to help compensate for some distortion, however that doesn't mean you should set the tire force to 200 and then try and weed out a blown out lower end. Just use this setting with care and if you can crank it a bit higher without clipping and causing things to feel too "heavy" (aka: the lower end is becoming overpowering) then go for it. If you can only leave it set at 100 or have to move a bit lower then try to play with some of the other options to see if you can remove some of the lower-end effect strength but don't be afraid to lower the TF setting if you have to.

Now that I've got your head swimming, we'll move on to the amplifier (steering gain). The only thing the amplifier does is takes the pre-out input (tire force) and multiply it by X (the steering gain setting) and then outputs that to your wheel.

DELETED TO ABBREVIATE


Hopefully that answers your question.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 14:59
The radio pre-out adjustment (tire force) affects the quality of the signal being sent to the amplifier (gain). The lower the tire force, the lesser the signal quality to the amplifier. The higher the tire force, the higher the signal quality to the amplifier. 100 is considered dead-center. Above/below that will either add or subtract from the default signal level. Increasing the tire force will increase the dynamic range of the higher end of the FFB spectrum and may allow you to feel subtle things in the road that you wouldn't feel normally. However, it will also increase the dynamic range of the lower end of the spectrum too which could lead to distortion (aka: clipping) and the blowing out of effects (lower end is usually easier to overdo than higher end). The other individual options may allow you to adjust the power of the effects at each end of the spectrum to an extent (usually by taking the lower end out) to help compensate for some distortion, however that doesn't mean you should set the tire force to 200 and then try and weed out a blown out lower end. Just use this setting with care and if you can crank it a bit higher without clipping and causing things to feel too "heavy" (aka: the lower end is becoming overpowering) then go for it. If you can only leave it set at 100 or have to move a bit lower then try to play with some of the other options to see if you can remove some of the lower-end effect strength but don't be afraid to lower the TF setting if you have to.
I'm confused by this. First of all, tire force doesn't affect the quality of the signal at all. It only affects the amplitude. Second, you talk about "spectrum" and tire force affecting the higher end and lower end of the spectrum. The only thing to my knowledge that affects the spectrum are the low pass filters on the force inputs (Fx Smoothing, Fy Smoothing, etc.). Now, if by "spectrum" you meant amplitude range, then I don't understand your assertion that increasing tire force can cause clipping in the lower range. Clipping only occurs at high signal levels. Further, changing tire force doesn't increase the dynamic range of the system. The system has a certain dynamic range and when the amplitude of the signal exceeds that dynamic range, clipping occurs.


The only thing the amplifier does is takes the pre-out input (tire force) and multiply it by X (the steering gain setting) and then outputs that to your wheel. Essentially it takes the FFB calculations and makes them "louder". This differs from the tire force because you're not actually affecting the FFB system's dynamic range at all. You're just causing the effects to be stronger. You won't add any additional effects or feel any more subtlety in the road by increasing the gain setting. You'll just take whatever effects you have and make them stronger.
If this is true then there is no difference between tire force and steering gain. Tire force is just an overall multiplier on the various component forces (Fx, Fy, etc.). In other words, TF = 50, SG =1.0 is the same as TF=100, SG=0.5.

Haiden
17-09-2015, 15:42
I'm confused by this. First of all, tire force doesn't affect the quality of the signal at all. It only affects the amplitude. Second, you talk about "spectrum" and tire force affecting the higher end and lower end of the spectrum. The only thing to my knowledge that affects the spectrum are the low pass filters on the force inputs (Fx Smoothing, Fy Smoothing, etc.). Now, if by "spectrum" you meant amplitude range, then I don't understand your assertion that increasing tire force can cause clipping in the lower range. Clipping only occurs at high signal levels. Further, changing tire force doesn't increase the dynamic range of the system. The system has a certain dynamic range and when the amplitude of the signal exceeds that dynamic range,


If this is true then there is no difference between tire force and steering gain. Tire force is just an overall multiplier on the various component forces (Fx, Fy, etc.). In other words, TF = 50, SG =1.0 is the same as TF=100, SG=0.5.

That made me scratch my head, too. Clipping at the lower range doesn't make sense to me. If it's low range, why would it clip?

The strange this is, although the relation you show between TF and SG makes sense math wise, they haven't proved interchangeable in practice. TF=50, SG=1.0 doesn't feel the same as TF=100, SG=0.5. At least not to me. Because of this, I've been using SG to adjust overall force strength once I find a good balance between TF and FF.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 15:46
That made me scratch my head, too. Clipping at the lower range doesn't make sense to me. If it's low range, why would it clip?

The strange this is, although the relation you show between TF and SG makes sense math wise, they haven't proved interchangeable in practice. TF=50, SG=1.0 doesn't feel the same as TF=100, SG=0.5. At least not to me. Because of this, I've been using SG to adjust overall force strength once I find a good balance between TF and FF.
Exactly and that's why I don't think this explanation is complete.

I'm also not sold on the assertion that FFB cannot cause clipping. I'm going to try that out because I could swear that I saw a post where Jack Spade stated that FFB can cause clipping.

3800racingfool
17-09-2015, 17:27
@Above

I'm referencing the vehicle forces as a spectrum. You have low-end forces such as weight transfer and tire scrub and, on the other side, you have high-end forces such as small bumps in the road and k/curbs. The "low-end" effects are usually what are felt the most as they are fairly powerful effects and not nearly as subtle as the high-end forces. Thus, they are the easiest to overdo and are the most likely to cause clipping.

Adjusting the tire force will adjust how much detail of these effects are felt. While adjusting the gain will change how strong the effects are.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 18:31
@Above

I'm referencing the vehicle forces as a spectrum. You have low-end forces such as weight transfer and tire scrub and, on the other side, you have high-end forces such as small bumps in the road and k/curbs. The "low-end" effects are usually what are felt the most as they are fairly powerful effects and not nearly as subtle as the high-end forces. Thus, they are the easiest to overdo and are the most likely to cause clipping.

Adjusting the tire force will adjust how much detail of these effects are felt. While adjusting the gain will change how strong the effects are.
They both change how strong the effects are. So I'm still trying to understand the difference.

konnos
17-09-2015, 19:23
Oh no, what are you doing to me! Now i must test Steering Gain as well!

3800racingfool
17-09-2015, 19:58
They both change how strong the effects are. So I'm still trying to understand the difference.

Ok. Let me try explaining it another way.

Compare the FFB to an image on your screen. Adjusting the Tire Force setting would be like scrolling your mouse to make the image larger/smaller. However, say you "zoom in" (change the TF to something over 100) and you will start to see more details in the image. However, the outside edges of the image may fall off the edge of your screen (aka: clipping). In essence, you're increasing the resolution of the FFB "image". Make it too big, and it will clip, make it too small, and you won't be taking full advantage of your wheel.

Now compare that to Steering Gain. "Zooming in" (aka: increasing the setting) will cause the edges of the image to still fall off the edge of your screen. However, you will not see any additional details, instead you see just a blurry pixelated mess. To compare to above, you're not increasing the resolution of the FFB "image" by adjusting this setting, you're simply enlarging the current image to fit your screen.

Tire Force scales the FFB like it's a vector image. Steering Gain scales the FFB like a raster image. (google "raster vs vector" (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=raster+vs+vector) to see the difference). The idea is to get the most detailed image (read: FFB) your screen (read: wheel) can handle without going overboard and having the image fall off the screen (read: having your wheel clip). Which is why, as I said in my first post, you typically won't need to adjust the steering gain over 1.0 with most wheels.

Again, this is a very simplified explanation. It's entirely possible with some wheels to obtain a feel that is the same by using either slider, however they go about giving you this feel in two entirely different ways.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 20:02
Maybe you should try a less simplified explanation. Tell me what it does without any analogies. I'm not really buying the resolution argument you presented here because (I assume that) the physics calculations are done in floating point, which is effectively infinite resolution. The only time it is quantized is when the FFB Strength is applied to scale it to whatever range the wheel can handle.

ETA: Here is a block diagram of the FFB system pre-steering gain. Can you show me where steering gain fits into the system?

218360

inthebagbud
17-09-2015, 20:28
I'm bumping this post up from Xbox forum to this general discussion thread because I did not see a reasonable response to this reasonable question. Also wanted to alert people to issue with Steering Gain settings that caught me out (and others as well) and may save other people some time.

1. Steering gain - WTF

This is post over on Xbox forum - http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38435-Steering-Gain-what-is-it-and-FFB-at-100-why&highlight=steering+gain
There's a nice diagram in original post and here is an extract.
My question is the same. Why have tyre force and steering gain? Won't one or the other do?



Confusion over Steering gain settings

In the course of playing with FFB after patch 3.0 I could not work out how some people could possibly drive a wheel with FFB and tyre force (TF) both set to 100. For me the wheel was so 'heavy' as to be almost undriveable (Fanatic GT3 V2). I generally use FFB 100 and TF 20-30. As other have noted (e.g. Titzon Toast) Steering Gain (SG) appears to default to different levels on different wheels, some the recommended 1.0 and others 5.0. If SG 1.0 then TF is OK at 100. If SG is 5 then TF should probably be lower. (in my opinion of course).
In the global FFB settings (Options > Controls > Calibrate Force Feedback) the 'Default' set up is TF 100 & SG 5.00. 'Classic' is TF 100 & SG is 1.00. This is on PS4 at least. I don't know why the new 'Default' has SG at 5.0 when its clearly recommended to set it at 1.0 or less in the Patch 3.0 notes!

Zeke

Thanks for bringing this back up . I was rather surprised it didn't get any attention at the time, probably shouldn't have left it to go off the radar

3800racingfool
17-09-2015, 20:31
Maybe you should try a less simplified explanation. Tell me what it does without any analogies. I'm not really buying the resolution argument you presented here because (I assume that) the physics calculations are done in floating point, which is effectively infinite resolution. The only time it is quantized is when the FFB Strength is applied to scale it to whatever range the wheel can handle.

ETA: Here is a block diagram of the FFB system pre-steering gain. Can you show me where steering gain fits into the system?

*snip*

Was actually looking for that image but looks like you beat me to it.

Steering Gain would be the block located furthest to the right (after the damping block in this instance). It's a final multiplier that takes everything else before it into account. Whereas Tire Force is a pre-multiplier for the inputs listed above. It will affect the inputs which, in turn, is where the detail of the FFB comes from. SG just takes everything else in that equation and serves as a final multiplier. Which is why you typically will have a wheel feel "heavier" but you won't really feel any more detail.

inthebagbud
17-09-2015, 20:36
My original question was


Where in the chain does it occur, as if it is a multiplier I am assuming it is at the very end of the chain or does it come before spindle, and why has it been introduced when we already have TF.

Whether we multiply at the beginning by increasing TF higher is this not same as leaving TF alone and increasing Gain

Which was based around the quote from sms as to what it did which is my post but I cannot copy at present as on mobile and it won't copy the quote over

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 20:38
OK another question. Is what you're calling "detail" actually resolution? If so, then that still doesn't quite add up if my assumption above is correct. The only time resolution comes into play is after the signal is quantized.

@inthebagbud: yes, those are the same questions I'm trying to find the answers to.

3800racingfool
17-09-2015, 21:02
OK another question. Is what you're calling "detail" actually resolution? If so, then that still doesn't quite add up if my assumption above is correct. The only time resolution comes into play is after the signal is quantized.

@inthebagbud: yes, those are the same questions I'm trying to find the answers to.

It's the raw input from the road (Fy,Fx,Fz,Mz,RsL, and RvL) before it's touched by any of the other "parameterized" settings (Spindle,SoP,etc).

The Steering Gain, on the other hand, is at the end of the chain and just serves as a final multiplier before it's quantified and sent to the wheel.

Resolution, was just an anology to being able to feel more of what the different raw inputs are giving you after adjusting the TF setting. Whereas the SG setting just amplifies/multiplies the "finished product" after all the other settings, inputs, and parameters have had their say.

konnos
17-09-2015, 21:11
@3800racingfool
After a few tests, brief yes, i think you are right in that TF brings in resolution and Steering Gain just makes the already there detail "louder". It might be placebo effect, but I think I see a little more detailed FFB line. One question, how do you know these things? And can we be certain that TF does actually input a more detailed signal. I mean, if it's all digital anyway, the detail should already be there and SG would do the same thing. I like your analogies and it makes sense, but how can we be sure that this is how it actually works.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 21:16
It's the raw input from the road (Fy,Fx,Fz,Mz,RsL, and RvL) before it's touched by any of the other "parameterized" settings (Spindle,SoP,etc).

The Steering Gain, on the other hand, is at the end of the chain and just serves as a final multiplier before it's quantified and sent to the wheel.

Resolution, was just an anology to being able to feel more of what the different raw inputs are giving you after adjusting the TF setting. Whereas the SG setting just amplifies/multiplies the "finished product" after all the other settings, inputs, and parameters have had their say.
So then if detail is not resolution, what is it?

If you ignore the effects of resolution, multiplication is commutative. Meaning that x * y = y * x. So multiplication done at the beginning is no different than multiplication at the end (which is what inthebagbud also stated above).

Haiden
17-09-2015, 21:42
I don't think you would get the same effect by adjusting Steering Gain, because when you adjust TF, you change the multiplier that's being applied to the rack forces, which means Fx, Fy, Fz, and Mz, are getting multiplied out before they pass through the spindle. So if they are all set to 2 and the TF was 10, each of those four forces would reach the spindle at 20. But if TF was 1 and SG was 10, those four forces would pass through the spindle at 2. In the end, the SG would multiply the final calculated force by 10, but it wouldn't be receiving the same value.

Hope that makes sense--hard to put into words.

This would actually explain why TF and SG values produced different wheel feels. To me, TF=50 and SG=1.0, doesn't feel the same as TF=100 and SG=0.50.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 21:48
TF = 1, SG = 10, FxScale = 1.0
Fx*1*1.0*10 = 10Fx

TF = 10, SG = 1, FxScale = 1.0
Fx*10*1.0*1 = 10Fx

Zeke Bewlay
17-09-2015, 21:56
Zeke

Thanks for bringing this back up . I was rather surprised it didn't get any attention at the time, probably shouldn't have left it to go off the radar

No problem. Glad we got some meaningful discussion this time!

Zeke Bewlay
17-09-2015, 22:20
Maybe you should try a less simplified explanation. Tell me what it does without any analogies. I'm not really buying the resolution argument you presented here because (I assume that) the physics calculations are done in floating point, which is effectively infinite resolution. The only time it is quantized is when the FFB Strength is applied to scale it to whatever range the wheel can handle.

ETA: Here is a block diagram of the FFB system pre-steering gain. Can you show me where steering gain fits into the system?

218360

Based on this diagram Seems to me that the only way that altering TF and SG would give different results is if altering TF actually gave differential changes to the downstream parameters. In other words eg if altering TF by a factor of A altered Fx by a factor of X and Fz by a factor of Y and FY by a factor of Z etc. I thought this was what 3800 was trying to suggest with his/her analogies but not sure.
Presumably someone who wrote the code would know the answer to such a question and such a result would be testable digitally. Such things are hard to test for end users just using 'feel' but not impossible. It would take some design to rule out preconception. In other words it would take a randomised double blind trial! As I said above, not sure I could tell much of a difference in feel when I dropped SG and raised TF but then again I set some cracking times at Catalunya in the Oreca last night. Should go back to my old settings and see if I can replicate.

Schnizz58
17-09-2015, 22:33
Based on this diagram Seems to me that the only way that altering TF and SG would give different results is if altering TF actually gave differential changes to the downstream parameters. In other words eg if altering TF by a factor of A altered Fx by a factor of X and Fz by a factor of Y and FY by a factor of Z etc.
That would be completely busted if it worked that way and I'll give SMS more credit than to do something like that. That would essentially mean that Jack Spade's files would be invalid because the game would be making some unknowable adjustment behind the scenes to the parameters in those files. What I could believe however, is that SG applies only to one of the primary forces (like maybe Mz for example). Then the multiplication wouldn't be across the board and it would no longer be commutative.

And yes, 10 minutes from somebody at SMS who knows what they're talking about would put an end to all this speculation.

3800racingfool
18-09-2015, 03:06
Since my internet is terribad for uploading video try this little experiment.

Take your current TF setting as well as your current SG setting and note them (mine was 1.00 and 85 on a G27).

Now lower the SG to .05 and go take a car out for a spin (say the McLaren 12C on Cali Hwy 1). Be sure to exercise the car, drive through dirt, hit walls, scrub back and forth, do it all. Also make sure your telemetry hud is on and watch the FFB graph. Notice how, no matter what you do, the graph stays pretty much completely flat the entire time.

Now, quit the session and go back into the settings. Raise the SG value back to where it was (1.00 in my case) and reduce the TF setting to a .05 equivalent (85*.05=4.25 so 4 in my case). Now go drive again, same car, same track, same deal. Drive it like you stole it. Again, have your telemetry hud on and watch the FFB graph. Notice how much more lively it is? It will still be somewhat flat (relative to whatever settings you normally use) but it will be much more active and lively than it was with the SG set to .05 and the TF set to normal.

Now, exit again and try one more thing. Raise your TF all the way up to 200 and reduce the SG to .5. Go for one more drive. Notice in the FFB graph how it flatlines without ever touching the top of the graph? Technically, that's still clipping. It's just not touching the edge of the graph because you've divided the final output multipler (SG) in half. If you flip the tables and half the TF setting and bump the SG to 2.0 and you'll get a completely different result.

Also, I won't pretend to know the math behind the FFB because I don't know it. Everything I've espoused in this thread has been from my own personal experience and experimentation with the FFB settings along with reading as much information on the FFB system as I managed to find. Obviously you're correct in saying a dev could come by and clear all of this information up however perhaps they see it as being part of the fun in figuring the settings out ourselves.

Flaw3dGenius
18-09-2015, 03:53
Surely wmd members who have been part of this ffb for the past 4 years could come in and help us out?

Zeke Bewlay
18-09-2015, 04:28
Since my internet is terribad for uploading video try this little experiment.

Take your current TF setting as well as your current SG setting and note them (mine was 1.00 and 85 on a G27).

Now lower the SG to .05 and go take a car out for a spin (say the McLaren 12C on Cali Hwy 1). Be sure to exercise the car, drive through dirt, hit walls, scrub back and forth, do it all. Also make sure your telemetry hud is on and watch the FFB graph. Notice how, no matter what you do, the graph stays pretty much completely flat the entire time.

Now, quit the session and go back into the settings. Raise the SG value back to where it was (1.00 in my case) and reduce the TF setting to a .05 equivalent (85*.05=4.25 so 4 in my case). Now go drive again, same car, same track, same deal. Drive it like you stole it. Again, have your telemetry hud on and watch the FFB graph. Notice how much more lively it is? It will still be somewhat flat (relative to whatever settings you normally use) but it will be much more active and lively than it was with the SG set to .05 and the TF set to normal.

Now, exit again and try one more thing. Raise your TF all the way up to 200 and reduce the SG to .5. Go for one more drive. Notice in the FFB graph how it flatlines without ever touching the top of the graph? Technically, that's still clipping. It's just not touching the edge of the graph because you've divided the final output multipler (SG) in half. If you flip the tables and half the TF setting and bump the SG to 2.0 and you'll get a completely different result.

Also, I won't pretend to know the math behind the FFB because I don't know it. Everything I've espoused in this thread has been from my own personal experience and experimentation with the FFB settings along with reading as much information on the FFB system as I managed to find. Obviously you're correct in saying a dev could come by and clear all of this information up however perhaps they see it as being part of the fun in figuring the settings out ourselves.

Ok will give it try. Was going to just then but PCARS is downloading and update at the moment...

N0body Of The Goat
18-09-2015, 07:17
Just recently, I've started leaving Tyre Force at 100 and reducing Gain to 90, when I used to lower TF to 95 and G was left at "classic" 100.

Think I'm going to try lowering G further.

konnos
18-09-2015, 08:19
So a low(er) TF and a higher SGain is the way to liven up the FFB line? I started to get that feeling after i tried your test, as i had always left Gain alone at 1.00

I m going to try reducing TF from 100 a little and add some more Gain and see if I like it better. I have been trying SG 3.00 (like the preset) and adjusting TF to where it won't clip. Lets see how I get used to this.

Haiden
18-09-2015, 13:55
TF = 1, SG = 10, FxScale = 1.0
Fx*1*1.0*10 = 10Fx

TF = 10, SG = 1, FxScale = 1.0
Fx*10*1.0*1 = 10Fx

Yes. That holds true in that simple equation, where the forces/variables are just multiplied and divided. But there are a lot of squares in that diagram, and no one seems to know how those other factors are applied to the calculation. What if there's more than simple multiplication and division going on? I don't know, just asking. Because, although mathematically valid, the equation you posted above just doesn't seem to hold true in practice. TF and SG values don't appear to be interchangeable--swapping the two produces a different feel in the wheel.

Schnizz58
18-09-2015, 14:21
Yes. That holds true in that simple equation, where the forces/variables are just multiplied and divided. But there are a lot of squares in that diagram, and no one seems to know how those other factors are applied to the calculation. What if there's more than simple multiplication and division going on? I don't know, just asking. Because, although mathematically valid, the equation you posted above just doesn't seem to hold true in practice. TF and SG values don't appear to be interchangeable--swapping the two produces a different feel in the wheel.
I will stipulate that High TF & Low SG =/= Low TF & High SG. My point was that if the process was done as described, there wouldn't be a difference. However there are second-order factors involved as you pointed out so maybe that's where the difference lies.


Ok will give it try. Was going to just then but PCARS is downloading and update at the moment...
Well I'll be dipped....they snuck one in on us.

Zeke Bewlay
19-09-2015, 05:43
Ok so I played around as suggested below. With TF or SG turned down really low of course there are only little bliss on the telemetry. TBH I really cold not make out any difference but you know I'm not measuring amplitudes or anything and of course I have no way of standardising inputs. Also tried going the other way. Really high TF or SG with. Of course a very heavy wheel with massive clipping so could not really discern anything useful. also tried 200:0.5 and 50:2.0. Not sure I could notice a big difference another compared to my standard 100:1.0
So if there is difference in having high TF or SG I really can't tell. Not saying there is not I just don't have the equipment or ability to tell.
Anyway thanks for your input and I hope your enjoying the benefits of 4.0


Since my internet is terribad for uploading video try this little experiment.

Take your current TF setting as well as your current SG setting and note them (mine was 1.00 and 85 on a G27).

Now lower the SG to .05 and go take a car out for a spin (say the McLaren 12C on Cali Hwy 1). Be sure to exercise the car, drive through dirt, hit walls, scrub back and forth, do it all. Also make sure your telemetry hud is on and watch the FFB graph. Notice how, no matter what you do, the graph stays pretty much completely flat the entire time.

Now, quit the session and go back into the settings. Raise the SG value back to where it was (1.00 in my case) and reduce the TF setting to a .05 equivalent (85*.05=4.25 so 4 in my case). Now go drive again, same car, same track, same deal. Drive it like you stole it. Again, have your telemetry hud on and watch the FFB graph. Notice how much more lively it is? It will still be somewhat flat (relative to whatever settings you normally use) but it will be much more active and lively than it was with the SG set to .05 and the TF set to normal.

Now, exit again and try one more thing. Raise your TF all the way up to 200 and reduce the SG to .5. Go for one more drive. Notice in the FFB graph how it flatlines without ever touching the top of the graph? Technically, that's still clipping. It's just not touching the edge of the graph because you've divided the final output multipler (SG) in half. If you flip the tables and half the TF setting and bump the SG to 2.0 and you'll get a completely different result.

Also, I won't pretend to know the math behind the FFB because I don't know it. Everything I've espoused in this thread has been from my own personal experience and experimentation with the FFB settings along with reading as much information on the FFB system as I managed to find. Obviously you're correct in saying a dev could come by and clear all of this information up however perhaps they see it as being part of the fun in figuring the settings out ourselves.

Slowsley
19-09-2015, 05:56
Steering...gain...good God y'all...what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. I said, steering...gain...huu....

Hmm? Nobody? Ok then....

Pappa_Stig
19-09-2015, 06:19
Steering...gain...good God y'all...what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. I said, steering...gain...huu....

Hmm? Nobody? Ok then....

I came in specifically to say this. Thank you :D

Slowsley
19-09-2015, 06:34
I came in specifically to say this. Thank you :D

Been in my head for days now. Haha

gotdirt410sprintcar
19-09-2015, 06:38
I have noticed it to I have run SG between 1.0 1.5 TF at 100 but have tried TF lower and noticed a different. But I just read what all you CRAZY TESTERS do and TEST it my self lol. The world of project cars surprised where not on payroll.

GOOD STUFF GUYS

TAGS Battfink
19-09-2015, 11:25
I have a question if any of you guys could be a diamond and for the sake of my sanity please answer it....

Is there any way i can raies the steering gain/FFB levels for increased feedback of rumble strips/bumps/ so on, WITHOUT actually increasing steering force?

I like light steering, but to get the level of feedback i like from rumble strips and so on, i also have to have a heavy wheel, which i detest. theres got to be a way im missing?

Thanks in advance for any info guys

rams1de
19-09-2015, 12:03
I have a question if any of you guys could be a diamond and for the sake of my sanity please answer it....

Is there any way i can raies the steering gain/FFB levels for increased feedback of rumble strips/bumps/ so on, WITHOUT actually increasing steering force?

I like light steering, but to get the level of feedback i like from rumble strips and so on, i also have to have a heavy wheel, which i detest. theres got to be a way im missing?

Thanks in advance for any info guys

Reduce steering gain in small increments. I've found it lightens steering while retaining the feel of fast acting forces, like the vibration from rumble strips.

Schnizz58
19-09-2015, 14:44
I have a question if any of you guys could be a diamond and for the sake of my sanity please answer it....

Is there any way i can raies the steering gain/FFB levels for increased feedback of rumble strips/bumps/ so on, WITHOUT actually increasing steering force?

I like light steering, but to get the level of feedback i like from rumble strips and so on, i also have to have a heavy wheel, which i detest. theres got to be a way im missing?

Thanks in advance for any info guys
Have you tried using the Bumps Plus settings?

Haiden
19-09-2015, 15:26
I have a question if any of you guys could be a diamond and for the sake of my sanity please answer it....

Is there any way i can raies the steering gain/FFB levels for increased feedback of rumble strips/bumps/ so on, WITHOUT actually increasing steering force?

I like light steering, but to get the level of feedback i like from rumble strips and so on, i also have to have a heavy wheel, which i detest. theres got to be a way im missing?

Thanks in advance for any info guys

You can try increasing the in-car Fz scale. That handles the bumps and curbs.

TAGS Battfink
19-09-2015, 18:05
Thanks guys, ive tried the ingame fz scale but with the steering set light it doesnt seem to have the desired effect

Ill defo try the bump plus settings though, no clue as to how to set them lol, but ill give it a go ;)

Zeke Bewlay
19-09-2015, 21:27
Steering...gain...good God y'all...what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. I said, steering...gain...huu....

Hmm? Nobody? Ok then....

Yes, that was the inspiration for the thread title!

Schnizz58
21-09-2015, 14:57
Yes, that was the inspiration for the thread title!
It worked. I've had that song in my head for a week now.