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fresquito
22-09-2015, 12:53
I joined WMD on October 12th, 2011. One day after it was opened. The idea of being part of the development of a game was really exciting to me. Back then I wasn't that big of a fan of racing games, but still I thought it was worth supporting a project this good: a true sim that would be created with racing fans in minds; the racing sim that no publisher wanted to support. How could I say no? I had a bittersweet experience at WMD. Seeing the devs work, understandding why they did this or that was not only impressive, but also eye opener. I love videogames, I have always been interested in them, in their handcraft, so WMD was totally worth it if only for that. On the other side, the ambient was not very good. Lots of fights. lots of conflicts and a game that was as bold as it gets, but that released unfinished. And almost six months in, it's still unfinished.

This last bit made me doubt, but it's not been until these past two weekends that I have started seeing clearly that I chose wrong. I put my confidence in someone that didn't derserve it. I was promised a game where the community was paramount. I was promised a game where dedicated players would be rewarded with a better experience, because this game was made by racers for racers. Sounds nice, but it's not true. I started working on my own community on April 2014. We have more than 200 registered members and have been doing championships for 8 months. I had to create the community because the game didn't provide the tools to have a good online experience. We were told about rating systems and matchmaking, but all of these words were just empty promises.

We, at our community, had to write down a 12 pages Rules Book because there's no penalty system whatsoever in thegame. We had to develop a lot of subsystems because they're not present in the game. We have safety cars, we organise grids, we have a marshall system to review the races and apply penalties when needed (but since the replay system is broken, we can't do do that anymore!). We, in short, had to develop ourselves the tools to be closer to the idea that SMS sold us. We had to work hard to overcome all the problems that the game was giving us. I'm not talking about bugs, but about features that are not there. Features that are present in every game that takes communities seriously.

After working our ass off to create one of the most well organised and serious Project CARS communities, the first in activities and quality for Spanish speaking people, after all this hard work with no help from anybody, we find that our leagues can't be played if Steam drops. Even though we have hired a server, it needs constant Steam connection. "We will look into changing this for Project CARS 2, so we're not dependant on Steam" is the answer we're given. A game made by racers for racers, indeed. A game for the community, I hear. Because we don't support our community in any way. Because we don't provide the tools to them. Because league racing is but an afterthought. Because, let's be honest, that's not where our revenue comes from. Don't mind what we told you when we asked for your support, things have changed ever since. All your work means nothing to us. We don't care at all. Because as much as we say we care, you still can't even order the position of your lobby!

It's sad how blind you seem to be about the situation your community is in. As for myself, I can't justify spending any more time and money in creatig leagues for a game that gives me no tools nor any garantee that my time and money won't go down the drain once the race starts.

maurice-pascale
22-09-2015, 13:28
I remember at the beginning, where all people said SMS are the best developers on earth and they work with the community like no other developer........but when i look at it, it is absolute not truth.....every other developer on earth works so like SMS....some much better with their community....on other game forum's i talk everyday with the developer and they always try and fix it or add it into the game...

I must say, 2-3 month after the release, the developers changed tottaly to their community.....i almost never hear something by them now.....just always moderators or WMD members......

i hope for promised features....almost 5 month now and the "comming soon" is still "COMMING SOON"....

Hengist
22-09-2015, 13:31
To the OP: Although I'm not in a position to agree or disagree, I just wanted to acknowledge that you've put forward a nicely worded argument to support your opinion.

Raven403
22-09-2015, 13:31
I must say for a game so focused on Community it seems like a strange Omission to leave out the proper tools for online league support.

NemethR
22-09-2015, 14:21
This is the same I feel, altough I do that for another reason, I really think of lookig into other games, something I did not tink I would.

This game has been postponed 4 times, all together half a year, and now almost a year after its originally planned release date its still not up there, where it should have been.
But okay, I could live with the bugs, the Limited Edition cars were all so good, then 1st DLC was really amazing, the 2nd was a bit... well too much Audi.
The 3rd was so-so, and now this one.... After the initial great experiences, the content added seems do drop in value for me.

I too do not feel the "by racers for racers" approach anymore. Certenly do not feel that the Devs really listen to the community.
Basic features have been requested like a Custom Championship, Multiple setups to be saved, better Pit stop strategy system, Save during endurance races, more realistic career events.
All these are not hard to make, its not like impossible it has been done in a lot of games before. But they are still missing.

:(

And the saddest thing is, that I do not see a brighter future. That is what really got me.

Franco Ferrari
22-09-2015, 14:24
I'm very sad reading these words.

I don't want to restart an endless discussions about what the game offers, in terms of options or tools, and what not.
There is a dedicated suggestion thread for this... that I don't even have the time to read, because I think the sheer number of suggestions (often disguised as demands) must be really high.
And it is (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?21985-Project-Cars-Ultimate-Suggestion-Thread).
And I think they vary from the most silly to the uttermost ingenious ones.
The problem is that, contrary to what Economics class may have taught you, there's no such thing as an infinite capacity production line, and if SMS had to convert every single suggestion they received into an option or a tool... they would have probably gone broke long ago.

Also... you mentioned lacking of "tools" and other things that you had to do manually, such as marshals (and, out of irony, I'd be really curious to know HOW you managed to have marshals manually!)... but failed to cite the audience, in terms of percentage, that would have benefited by the presence of said tools.
You're talking about things that probably less than 1% of the players would have used... let alone needed... even more let alone complaining for the lack thereof.
But leaving the usefulness of such tools aside, the point is that during the development of pCARS 1 there was simply neither the time nor the resources to add them.
Trade offs and compromises had to be made... and if you fail to remember them, you probably haven't payed the necessary attention during the development.

Anyway... I must ask you this: if you're really disappointed about pCARS and the WMD Team as a whole... if you mistrusted them so much... if they betrayed your faith so much... why haven't you asked for a refund when you had the time?
I'm not accusing anyone, but I suppose you're enjoying your Senior Pack revenues you're just starting to receive now... just like any of us.

Franco Ferrari
22-09-2015, 14:29
I'm not accusing anyone, but I suppose you're enjoying your Senior Pack revenues you're just starting to receive now... just like any of us.


To clarify this last sentence a bit... what I was trying to say is that reading this post, I cannot helped but imagine you thanking SMS for the benefits with one hand, and slapping them in the face with the other.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 14:46
.

You yourself were guilty of causing a lot of dissent in the WMD community. If you didn't have the faith, you could have left the community and went to any number of other games better suited for your needs.
MEC and TGC ran on absolutely no league tools during development and pulled in fair sized fields of like minded players/testers. It's not about the tools. It's about the league members. If you can work around something to make it work and you have the passion or drive to do it, you will do it.

That you would come here and speak ill of a company you know and have experienced bending over backwards and doing all they can to not break themselves over launching this title is disingenuous. I respect your opinion that you did not get the game that you wanted, but you always had the choice to leave.

To complain about Steam reliance when this is an issue suffered by literally thousands of games and is not specifically even the fault of the developer, though. That's low percentage. Complain to Steam Support about Steam being down.

MABlosfeld
22-09-2015, 14:47
I joined WMD on October 12th, 2011. One day after it was opened. The idea of being part of the development of a game was really exciting to me. Back then I wasn't that big of a fan of racing games, but still I thought it was worth supporting a project this good: a true sim that would be created with racing fans in minds; the racing sim that no publisher wanted to support. How could I say no? I had a bittersweet experience at WMD. Seeing the devs work, understandding why they did this or that was not only impressive, but also eye opener. I love videogames, I have always been interested in them, in their handcraft, so WMD was totally worth it if only for that. On the other side, the ambient was not very good. Lots of fights. lots of conflicts and a game that was as bold as it gets, but that released unfinished. And almost six months in, it's still unfinished.

This last bit made me doubt, but it's not been until these past two weekends that I have started seeing clearly that I chose wrong. I put my confidence in someone that didn't derserve it. I was promised a game where the community was paramount. I was promised a game where dedicated players would be rewarded with a better experience, because this game was made by racers for racers. Sounds nice, but it's not true. I started working on my own community on April 2014. We have more than 200 registered members and have been doing championships for 8 months. I had to create the community because the game didn't provide the tools to have a good online experience. We were told about rating systems and matchmaking, but all of these words were just empty promises.

We, at our community, had to write down a 12 pages Rules Book because there's no penalty system whatsoever in thegame. We had to develop a lot of subsystems because they're not present in the game. We have safety cars, we organise grids, we have a marshall system to review the races and apply penalties when needed (but since the replay system is broken, we can't do do that anymore!). We, in short, had to develop ourselves the tools to be closer to the idea that SMS sold us. We had to work hard to overcome all the problems that the game was giving us. I'm not talking about bugs, but about features that are not there. Features that are present in every game that takes communities seriously.

After working our ass off to create one of the most well organised and serious Project CARS communities, the first in activities and quality for Spanish speaking people, after all this hard work with no help from anybody, we find that our leagues can't be played if Steam drops. Even though we have hired a server, it needs constant Steam connection. "We will look into changing this for Project CARS 2, so we're not dependant on Steam" is the answer we're given. A game made by racers for racers, indeed. A game for the community, I hear. Because we don't support our community in any way. Because we don't provide the tools to them. Because league racing is but an afterthought. Because, let's be honest, that's not where our revenue comes from. Don't mind what we told you when we asked for your support, things have changed ever since. All your work means nothing to us. We don't care at all. Because as much as we say we care, you still can't even order the position of your lobby!

It's sad how blind you seem to be about the situation your community is in. As for myself, I can't justify spending any more time and money in creatig leagues for a game that gives me no tools nor any garantee that my time and money won't go down the drain once the race starts.

I agree and disagree with the arguments
pcars is a great game and has problems but what game is perfect?
It should not be easy to develop a game for multiple platforms and driving styles
90% are casual only 10% are demanding professional players for an immersive simulation and perfect

21 posting?
where were you all the time, playing? If so then I understand!

c172fccc
22-09-2015, 14:54
21 posting?
where were you all the time, playing? If so then I understand!

Those are only the post on this forum that opened back in May 2015. For example, I have 87 posts here, but 3109 posts on the development forum.

cluck
22-09-2015, 15:01
This is the same I feel, altough I do that for another reason, I really think of lookig into other games, something I did not tink I would.

This game has been postponed 4 times, all together half a year, and now almost a year after its originally planned release date its still not up there, where it should have been.
But okay, I could live with the bugs, the Limited Edition cars were all so good, then 1st DLC was really amazing, the 2nd was a bit... well too much Audi.
The 3rd was so-so, and now this one.... After the initial great experiences, the content added seems do drop in value for me.

I too do not feel the "by racers for racers" approach anymore. Certenly do not feel that the Devs really listen to the community.
Basic features have been requested like a Custom Championship, Multiple setups to be saved, better Pit stop strategy system, Save during endurance races, more realistic career events.
All these are not hard to make, its not like impossible it has been done in a lot of games before. But they are still missing.

:(

And the saddest thing is, that I do not see a brighter future. That is what really got me.Cheer up, it's raining outside :yes:

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 15:02
I mean yeah, it's not like postcounts matter. Otherwise I'd find Fresquito's 973 vs my 7664 a little telling....

BazzaLB
22-09-2015, 15:10
I mean yeah, it's not like postcounts matter. Otherwise I'd find Fresquito's 973 vs my 7664 a little telling....

Maybe he goes for quality over quantity.

Give it up will ya. You love the game and everything anout it. We gotcha.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 15:11
Maybe he goes for quality over quantity.

Give it up will ya. You love the game and everything anout it. We gotcha.

Are you upset with me Bazza? Do you wish to talk about it?

BazzaLB
22-09-2015, 15:12
Are you upset with me Bazza? Do you wish to talk about it?

Actually, I wish you would just shut up.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 15:13
Actually, I wish you would just shut up.

I see. But why, though?

Bealdor
22-09-2015, 15:14
Guys, take your personal differences to PM please.

BazzaLB
22-09-2015, 15:14
I see. But why, though?


Nah, I'm kidding. Keep up the good work!

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 15:16
Nah, I'm kidding. Keep up the good work!

Thanks ^^;

rocho
22-09-2015, 15:24
You yourself were guilty of causing a lot of dissent in the WMD community. If you didn't have the faith, you could have left the community and went to any number of other games better suited for your needs.
MEC and TGC ran on absolutely no league tools during development and pulled in fair sized fields of like minded players/testers. It's not about the tools. It's about the league members. If you can work around something to make it work and you have the passion or drive to do it, you will do it.

That you would come here and speak ill of a company you know and have experienced bending over backwards and doing all they can to not break themselves over launching this title is disingenuous. I respect your opinion that you did not get the game that you wanted, but you always had the choice to leave.

To complain about Steam reliance when this is an issue suffered by literally thousands of games and is not specifically even the fault of the developer, though. That's low percentage. Complain to Steam Support about Steam being down.
I hope that moderators edit or delete this offensive reply from Shinzah because I think insults are not allowed in this forum. And that gif is an insult for me, and he has modified a post of other member without his permission in an offensive manner.
If you don't agree with fresquito, elaborate a response to his complaints at least as politely as he did.

Edit:

Thank you very much.

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 15:27
"made by racers for racers"


I dont think this motto should of been as pushed as hard as it did!

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 15:29
I hope that moderators edit or delete this offensive reply from Shinzah because I think insults are not allowed in this forum. And that gif is an insult for me, and he has modified a post of other member without his permission in an offensive manner.
If you don't agree with fresquito, elaborate a response to his complaints at least as politely as he did.

Edit:

Thank you very much.

Fair enough. Thanks Remco.

crowtrobot
22-09-2015, 15:30
Anyway... I must ask you this: if you're really disappointed about pCARS and the WMD Team as a whole... if you mistrusted them so much... if they betrayed your faith so much... why haven't you asked for a refund when you had the time?
I'm not accusing anyone, but I suppose you're enjoying your Senior Pack revenues you're just starting to receive now... just like any of us.
Why would he have asked for a refund at this point, when the payments are coming in? May as well cash in on what was owed, even if the product isn't what he expected.

Can't say much w.r.t. the league racing difficulties, as I don't have the time to invest wholly in them, but I do agree with some of the sentiment. There were a lot of features/content that were promised at the beginning and expected at release that were cut without word or warning. Obviously compromises need to be made, no rational person should have expected the entire design document to be implemented, but my issue was how many things (such as league racing as mentioned above) were emphasized as important early-on in the development process, but then practically abandoned with no explanation towards the end. There was a massive cut-off where things on WMD stopped being about contribution, and started to be something much closer to a typical commercial video game experience, where you take what you're given and if you don't like it, too bad. UI was a prime example of this - many of the glaring usability issues were pointed out YEARS before release, and were still unaddressed, again with little-to-no explanation.

This is a very good game, and lord knows I've sunk plenty of hours into it, but it is far from perfect and the attitude where people are just expected to "deal with it" is grating. The devs are professionals and shouldn't need apologists - this is a consumer product and consumers are offering their feedback as to what features are important to them. Hiring Elmo a ways back was a good step forward, but I think there is still room for improvement on the communications front.

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 15:30
I remember at the beginning, where all people said SMS are the best developers on earth and they work with the community like no other developer........but when i look at it, it is absolute not truth.....every other developer on earth works so like SMS....some much better with their community....on other game forum's i talk everyday with the developer and they always try and fix it or add it into the game...

I must say, 2-3 month after the release, the developers changed tottaly to their community.....i almost never hear something by them now.....just always moderators or WMD members......

i hope for promised features....almost 5 month now and the "comming soon" is still "COMMING SOON"....

What a load of "you know what"!

BazzaLB
22-09-2015, 15:33
Why would he have asked for a refund at this point, when the payments are coming in? May as well cash in on what was owed, even if the product isn't what he expected.

Can't say much w.r.t. the league racing difficulties, as I don't have the time to invest wholly in them, but I do agree with some of the sentiment. There were a lot of features/content that were promised at the beginning and expected at release that were cut without word or warning. Obviously compromises need to be made, no rational person should have expected the entire design document to be implemented, but my issue was how many things (such as league racing as mentioned above) were emphasized as important early-on in the development process, but then practically abandoned with no explanation towards the end. There was a massive cut-off where things on WMD stopped being about contribution, and started to be something much closer to a typical commercial video game experience, where you take what you're given and if you don't like it, too bad. UI was a prime example of this - many of the glaring usability issues were pointed out YEARS before release, and were still unaddressed, again with little-to-no explanation.

This is a very good game, and lord knows I've sunk plenty of hours into it, but it is far from perfect and the attitude where people are just expected to "deal with it" is grating. The devs are professionals and shouldn't need apologists - this is a consumer product and consumers are offering their feedback as to what features are important to them. Hiring Elmo a ways back was a good step forward, but I think there is still room for improvement on the communications front.

Couldn't agree more. Well said!

marcdxn
22-09-2015, 15:46
Never like getting involved in these threads because im happy with what i have and the slow / steady updates that come.

But i don't like seeing these things said :

"why haven't you asked for a refund when you had the time?"

I hate it when people say this, people hold on hoping for patches and then then time passes that a refund is possible - people do this because developers promise more progress through patches so people hang on hoping for the best.
I did this with F1 2015 by Codemasters and i regret it massively because i now have a box on the shelf of a game i've had less than 40 mins play time on because my issues were never fixed.

Please don't say 'o well you should have a got a refund then' because the game always planned to release and develop more through patches and its not fair really to say that when some people might have got a refund if it wasn't for the promises of certain features of fixes via updates / patches.

Now thankfully i'm happy with my purchase of Project CARS but i've been on the other side of the fence where i wasn't happy with something recently (F1 2015) but many people on the codemasters forum are happy with it.

It's quite nice to read your views, refreshing that its written in a decent manor too.

Paulo Ribeiro
22-09-2015, 15:47
21 posting?
where were you all the time, playing? If so then I understand!

What 21 posts has to do with it???
Can be so many factors, so many variables for OP having 21 posts here. :dejection:

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 15:51
Never like getting involved in these threads because im happy with what i have and the slow / steady updates that come.

But i don't like seeing these things said :

"why haven't you asked for a refund when you had the time?"

I hate it when people say this, people hold on hoping for patches and then then time passes that a refund is possible - people do this because developers promise more progress through patches so people hang on hoping for the best.
I did this with F1 2015 by Codemasters and i regret it massively because i now have a box on the shelf of a game i've had less than 40 mins play time on because my issues were never fixed.

Please don't say 'o well you should have a got a refund then' because the game always planned to release and develop more through patches and its not fair really to say that when some people might have got a refund if it wasn't for the promises of certain features of fixes via updates / patches.



Actually, this is a good point. I am sorry I felt judgmental about this aspect of the post and let my views on the matter blind me to the potential other side.

At the same time, SMS technically owed us nothing, and bent over backwards to give back to the community. So on the other side of the matter, it is hard for some WMD people (as me) to look at this as anything other than being disingenuous and cashing in on the work of others that they didn't believe in.

Raven403
22-09-2015, 15:57
Actually, this is a good point. I am sorry I felt judgmental about this aspect of the post and let my views on the matter blind me to the potential other side.

At the same time, SMS technically owed us nothing, and bent over backwards to give back to the community. So on the other side of the matter, it is hard for some WMD people (as me) to look at this as anything other than being disingenuous and cashing in on the work of others that they didn't believe in.

Not Picking an argument im just asking.

Werent all the people that signed up for WMD considered 'Investors' and therefore wouldnt SMS infact actually Owe you all something? As well as techinically work for the Investors? I dont know what the language in it was when it first started so i have no idea. I know its different on Pcars2 because it was pitched as pay for early Access but that wasnt the case in Pcars1 right?

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 16:03
Not Picking an argument im just asking.

Werent all the people that signed up for WMD considered 'Investors' and therefore wouldnt SMS infact actually Owe you all something? As well as techinically work for the Investors? I dont know what the language in it was when it first started so i have no idea. I know its different on Pcars2 because it was pitched as pay for early Access but that wasnt the case in Pcars1 right?

The agreement all regular members (not counting contracted members with special agreements) undertook was for the POTENTIAL returns and that SMS held the right to change the terms of the toolpack conditions as they saw fit (which resulted in a fair amount of changes during the development cycle.) Many people confused the toolpack rewards/investor thing as solids that SMS owed to the community. They were under no legal obligation to do so, and most of the things they have given back to the WMD members came at a loss to themselves.

The thing is, Pcars started as a wild idea on an internet forum, and it ran into a lot of roadblocks on the way. The fact the game even exists is a testament to both the WMD community and platform and SMS themselves for never giving up. So when people talk ill of either the community or the developer, I feel saddened (and this is also why I tend to speak of both the WMD community and SMS with the respect I feel they deserve)

In short, the only thing actually legally guaranteed by SMS was the forum account for WMD.

Aleonso
22-09-2015, 16:10
Keep calm and wait for project cars 3 or 4, 5 ,6...

letom
22-09-2015, 16:34
Yes, don't worry, wait for Pcars 2, will be another unfinished game... :cool:

leithnow
22-09-2015, 16:35
I joined WMD on October 12th, 2011....

I get the multiplayer issues, ranking and matchmaking, creating leagues. I suggest SMS take a look at Forza Horizon 2, their league system is intuitive as hell. But the physics are a joke, even compared to Forza motorsport.

The penalty system is pretty broken, but I believe it's probably something theyve been spending extra time on to make sure it's good before releasing it in a patch. Probably the same goes for a lot of our other issues. Just because it wasn't in the latest patch, doesn't mean SMS haven't been trying to fix the issue, just that they are taking more time with those issues. At least, hopefully is the case.

But if they game sucked, you wouldn't care about these issues, because you'd have your league in a better game. And I can understand how frustrating that must be, because PCARS totally is within reach of solving those issues and making the experience closer to perfect. I think they may have just not been up front about how long it would take to get there.

flymar
22-09-2015, 17:44
While I understand some of the OP frustration I wouldn't put it that way.
This WMD "adventure" was one of the kind and while many of us can point something in the game that could have been done differently it gives (for me) the best driving experience comparing to other titles.
IMO the biggest problem (as usually) is communication. I'm not here to tell anybody how to do their jobs but I guess weekly updates on what the blue guys are fixing, improving and planning would be hell of a good idea:)

And one thing that is weird to me are the problems with consoles. I was under the impression that these are plug&play machines. If it works on one it should on every one... well seeing wide array of different issues (and positive opinions also) I see it's not working that way.

I have no business experience but I hope working on suggestion lists, putting up some car/track DLCs and bigger content update could provide the devs with solid stream of bucks that one day will bloom as pCARS huge Offroad expansion - :)

aleph99
22-09-2015, 18:05
Can't say much about the game itself, because I'm still in the Wait-For-The-Next-Patch group (my precarious FFB tuning no longer works with patch 4.0 and now PCars is crashing Windows 10), but it amazes me that in a game "made by the community for the community" there is so little actual interaction between developers & community, except for eventual hunting raids by Mr Ian Bell. Yes, we can rant and rave in this forum, but SMS seems to be working inside a bubble and following its own agenda (as proven by the forthcoming Test Track DLC, which apparently nobody asked for in the track wishlist). Some things clearly don't work well in PCars and there are users doing something about it; why not incorporate that into the game? Jack Spade's files are a glaring example of this. Most everybody agrees they do improve the FFB feel, but there are probably hundreds of thousands of users who are not aware of them and are displeased with their current setup. So why not reach an agreement with Jack and include them in the game package? The same goes for the Force Curve Modifier by skoader, which I just found out about yesterday. A few months ago I suggested that SMS do just that to help users calibrate their wheels. Well, someone has actually done it. Why not make it universally available? Everybody understands that SMS has limited resources, but it wouldn't hurt them to actually pay attention to their most creative and dedicated users.

As to issues and priorities, there is a simple way to clarify the matter: take a vote! This is quite easy to do in a forum: just make a list of reported issues, ask users to vote on them by order of priority and follow that. I am willing to bet no one would complain then.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 18:14
Can't say much about the game itself, because I'm still in the Wait-For-The-Next-Patch group (my precarious FFB tuning no longer works with patch 4.0 and now PCars is crashing Windows 10), but it amazes me that in a game "made by the community for the community" there is so little actual interaction between developers & community, except for eventual hunting raids by Mr Ian Bell. Yes, we can rant and rave in this forum, but SMS seems to be working inside a bubble and following its own agenda

Excuse moi?
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/search.php?searchid=9657822


(as proven by the forthcoming Test Track DLC, which apparently nobody asked for in the track wishlist).
There is going to be internal release agendas from SMS. It's unavoidable. Many WMD members were saddened when the test track was removed. Now the assets have been polished and it'll be released as additional content for all to enjoy. Just because someone doesn't specifically ask for it, does not mean it shouldn't be in the game nor will not be enjoyed. If SMS only added things from wishlists, they'd never be able to use assets they already have (or rarely, anyway) and that they are producing a polished test track with multiple layouts, plus the additional fictional scottish track thing is not because they were ignoring requests. It's because they have specific polished assets that can be released on their DLC schedule. Please keep in mind that it'll take a while for "Fan requests" of anything to get released. Especially cars and tracks. Especially tracks. Tracks take a VERY long time to model and code.



Some things clearly don't work well in PCars and there are users doing something about it; why not incorporate that into the game? Jack Spade's files are a glaring example of this. Most everybody agrees they do improve the FFB feel, but there are probably hundreds of thousands of users who are not aware of them and are displeased with their current setup. So why not reach an agreement with Jack and include them in the game package? The same goes for the Force Curve Modifier by skoader, which I just found out about yesterday. A few months ago I suggested that SMS do just that to help users calibrate their wheels. Well, someone has actually done it. Why not make it universally available? Everybody understands that SMS has limited resources, but it wouldn't hurt them to actually pay attention to their most creative and dedicated users.


I think they've already said they are looking into it, and so they are looking into it. They are not ignoring their users.



As to issues and priorities, there is a simple way to clarify the matter: take a vote! This is quite easy to do in a forum: just make a list of reported issues, ask users to vote on them by order of priority and follow that. I am willing to bet no one would complain then.

Voting won't work. Even with one member = one vote and other mechanisms, it'll be easily skewed for cliques and friends and whatnot. SMS already has more data on what people want vs what to prioritize than a forum vote will get them here.

Plato99
22-09-2015, 18:25
Tip: don't show features or tracks during development if there's a good chance they won't be released.
Yes, pit crews and Spa Francorchamps original, I'm talking about you.

It only embitters people like me who expected to be experiencing them by now.

Sasquatch
22-09-2015, 18:29
Interesting read this thread is. I'll post, then lurk.


Yes, don't worry, wait for Pcars 2, will be another unfinished game... :cool:

I just want to stand outside for a bit. You know, go through the radio system on this one.

One thing that ran clear to me, is one of the words in the title SMS has released is "Project." Project means to contemplate, plan, propose, having some reality outside of the mind, throw, cast, onward, etc. You get the idea.

What if this game was to be never actually finished from the get go on purpose? I love this game, I love the fact I don't have to have a beast PC, I love the fact it actually released on a console so I can jump in and simply play it - but it cannot be something no one anticipated to simply be. Maybe I was prepared to not really be surprised at the flaws from the get-go. Maybe PCars 4.0 broke more than it fixed - it's pretty much the entirety of this forum right now.

But "Project" is simply an idea, meaning not complete. You paid full price, supported a multi-platform, idea-that-was-kind-of-an-idea-of-that-other-idea.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 18:32
Is anything ever really "Finished"...?

I don't mean in the completionist sense of there is a hard limit, like a finish line or a particular goal. But more meta than that.

Is there always room for improvement? Is there a limit to passion? Is there a maximum amount of human abstraction that can be achieved? What even *is* perfection?

It wasn't called "Perfect Cars". You're right. Entirely right. And everyone should give you a like for this post.

marcdxn
22-09-2015, 18:36
Interesting read this thread is. I'll post, then lurk.



I just want to stand outside for a bit. You know, go through the radio system on this one.

One thing that ran clear to me, is one of the words in the title SMS has released is "Project." Project means to contemplate, plan, propose, having some reality outside of the mind, throw, cast, onward, etc. You get the idea.

What if this game was to be never actually finished from the get go on purpose? I love this game, I love the fact I don't have to have a beast PC, I love the fact it actually released on a console so I can jump in and simply play it - but it cannot be something no one anticipated to simply be. Maybe I was prepared to not really be surprised at the flaws from the get-go. Maybe PCars 4.0 broke more than it fixed - it's pretty much the entirety of this forum right now.

But "Project" is simply an idea, meaning not complete. You paid full price, supported a multi-platform, idea.

The title of a game doesn't justify some of the things being said in here :hopelessness:;):hopelessness:;)

Knightfall
22-09-2015, 18:43
As someone that was not a part of the development team, and simply just a customer, I read through these threads as somewhat of an "outsider."

From my point of view, the crux of the complaints across all the threads and all the platforms seems to be that the game isn't EXACTLY what person X wanted it to be, either through design or features.

When I started playing, I took the approach "lets see what this game has to offer" instead of "Where is XXX in this game?"

Additionally, I feel like the game has gotten added to and improved more than any other game in my collection since release.

I have never been more pleased and satisfied by a racing title in my life. With all these "missing features" that are talked about, I think the future is bright for this title.

Sasquatch
22-09-2015, 18:43
The title of a game doesn't justify some of the things being said in here :hopelessness:;):hopelessness:;)
I'm simply pointing that out as a customer.

Lurk-mode initiated.

aleph99
22-09-2015, 18:45
Excuse moi?
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/search.php?searchid=9657822.

Thanks for the reply, Shinzah, but the URL is leading nowhere. Can you please repost it?


I think they've already said they are looking into it, and so they are looking into it.

I think this just about sums it up much better than I did.

fresquito
22-09-2015, 18:48
To clarify this last sentence a bit... what I was trying to say is that reading this post, I cannot helped but imagine you thanking SMS for the benefits with one hand, and slapping them in the face with the other.
I have nothing to thank SMS. No more than SMS has to thank me, at least. I appreacite the work the devs put into this and I appreaciate that I could see them work and learn a lot of good stuff. Some people talk about WMD like this is charity. I paid myself what I got, I don't need to feel ashamed about anything.

But people like you make things very hard, because when you don't like something, you take it on a personal level. Who are you to judge me? Who is this Shinzah to juzge how much effort I put into my community or how valuable is my post count? I love this game and I certainly I'm not blind to its virtues (neither to its flaws). I wouldn't have clocked over 750 hours in the game, I wouldn't have put so much time and money in the community I run, I wouldn't have invested in PC2 if I didn't think WMD was worth the price or PC1 was worth my time. You seem to be preaching some regurgitated speech here. I didn't complain about the game, or about the WMD model, or even about SMS devs not working enough. I specifically spoke why I lost all the trust in this project as a whole. Whether you want to ignore that point and go on with your blind defense, it's your choice.

I'll tell you again: This is said to be a community oriented project. I had to build my community from scratch with no help from anybody from SMS or WMD (some WMD members joined on a private level, but that's not WMD helping). And once the community was built, I had to fight against the game to create some good content for people that have Project CARS to enjoy serious racing. I can accept the game being flawed and missing some essential features. The game is so good that it easily overcomes all of these problems. What I can't overcome is the fact that we're paying a server and we can't ensure that people will not get disconnected. Because I have to give my face here and calm people down and hope they will come back to see if the game will not fail in the next race that they were training for the whole week. And then we need to ask them for donations so we can keep our server up. And I can't do that with a straight face, because people are paying to secure themselves a safe enviroment, but we can't garantee it. And when the problem is arisen, my trust shatters to pieces when I get the reply that we will do that for PC2. Because all our hard work goes into nothingness. Because this is the answer I never expect from someone that puts the community first and foremost.

I can understand all the problems tied to the game, I can understand Project CARS development being a nightmare. I was there and saw it. What we finally got is simply too good for what it could have been had the devs not stood strong against all the development problems. What I can't understand or accept is someone that tells their community: deal with it, we're not shorting this huge problem. Cross your fingers, say your prayers, because if Steam falls, then your work will go down the drain and we are not doing anything about it until the next game comes around.

And that's my personal view on the subject. I'm trying to convince nobody about nothing. I'm just being honest to SMS and telling them why I'm done working my ass off on a community to their game.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 18:48
Thanks for the reply, Shinzah, but the URL is leading nowhere. Can you please repost it?

Mmmm. It seems this still doesn't work either.

At the top of the forums is a tab that says "Forum" beside it in in fancy Blue text is "SMS Posts". If you click on this, you will see that more than Ian comes out on "hunting raids" and that several devs are fairly actively engaging the community ;)

ONT
22-09-2015, 18:51
“PATIENCE YOU MUST HAVE my young padawans”.

SMS is well aware of my work load this time of the Year, the SIM will be fully functional about 30 days from now when I get some time to install it :)

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 18:56
What I can't understand or accept is someone that tells their community: deal with it, we're not shorting this huge problem. Cross your fingers, say your prayers, because if Steam falls, then your work will go down the drain and we are not doing anything about it until the next game comes around.


I am not blindly defending anyone. You're making these long posts blaming SMS for Steam going down. The people to blame is Steam. SMS are simply not going to re-do all of the multiplayer backend that they tied to Steam. It's not a rational suggestion. It simply won't happen. SMS are not in control of Steam. They tied the online component to Steam for many very good reasons that outweigh the occasional drop in Steam service. If this is a big problem for you, you should contact Steam and not be talking about how SMS has wronged you, when you were at the WMD forums during the switch to Steam for Multiplayer, and saw firsthand that the community supported this then.

They can't simply reverse that decision.

Linus27
22-09-2015, 19:05
As someone that was not a part of the development team, and simply just a customer, I read through these threads as somewhat of an "outsider."

From my point of view, the crux of the complaints across all the threads and all the platforms seems to be that the game isn't EXACTLY what person X wanted it to be, either through design or features.

When I started playing, I took the approach "lets see what this game has to offer" instead of "Where is XXX in this game?"

Additionally, I feel like the game has gotten added to and improved more than any other game in my collection since release.

I have never been more pleased and satisfied by a racing title in my life. With all these "missing features" that are talked about, I think the future is bright for this title.

I am pretty much in the same boat as you, didn't take part in the development etc. so didn't know what to expect. I kept my eye on things as I loved GT Legends so I had high hopes in Slightly Mad. Plus the videos kept improving over time and feedback was getting better also.

So when I got the game (PC player here) I was very impressed. However, I have been playing PC sims for about 35 years (if you include Rev's on the BBC and and Grand Prix on the Amiga as PC Sims) and now just starting to feel the frustrations with the game and some of the features I would expect of a title in this day and age. I still think it's a superb product, possibly because I had no expectations but I keep finding myself saying, I wish I could do this or why can't I do this and in turn, find myself going back to other titles.

It is very promising that SMS have been improving the game, quite quickly so I am hoping we will get to see some of the features people are requested being added.

fresquito
22-09-2015, 19:05
I am not blindly defending anyone. You're making these long posts blaming SMS for Steam going down. The people to blame is Steam. SMS are simply not going to re-do all of the multiplayer backend that they tied to Steam. It's not a rational suggestion. It simply won't happen. SMS are not in control of Steam. They tied the online component to Steam for many very good reasons that outweigh the occasional drop in Steam service. If this is a big problem for you, you should contact Steam and not be talking about how SMS has wronged you, when you were at the WMD forums during the switch to Steam for Multiplayer, and saw firsthand that the community supported this then.

They can't simply reverse that decision.
I'm not blaming SMS for Steam going down. My problem is with SMS offering no solution other than wait for PC2 to what's a huge problem for communities that do online leagues. If that's their answer to our problem, then it's okay. I will just not waste any more of my time and money in doing that stuff. I'm not blaming anybody, just responding to their response. It's all fine and dandy, we are grown ups, no need to make some huge drama. I'm just speaking my mind on what's a huge problem to a project I trusted until now. I hope it helps SMS in understanding how things are for some people out there.

SleecTM
22-09-2015, 19:07
I agree and disagree with the arguments
pcars is a great game and has problems but what game is perfect?
It should not be easy to develop a game for multiple platforms and driving styles
90% are casual only 10% are demanding professional players for an immersive simulation and perfect

21 posting?
where were you all the time, playing? If so then I understand!

SO WHY PCARS STARTED IF YOU WANT TO GO NFS DIRECTION?

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 19:24
I'm not blaming SMS for Steam going down. My problem is with SMS offering no solution other than wait for PC2 to what's a huge problem for communities that do online leagues. If that's their answer to our problem, then it's okay. I will just not waste any more of my time and money in doing that stuff. I'm not blaming anybody, just responding to their response. It's all fine and dandy, we are grown ups, no need to make some huge drama. I'm just speaking my mind on what's a huge problem to a project I trusted until now. I hope it helps SMS in understanding how things are for some people out there.

It's fine Fresquito, I understand what you're saying. But they aren't offering a solution because they *can't* not because they don't want to. It's a little unfair to say you do not any longer trust them when they literally can not do the thing that you want them to do with any rationality. It's simply not possible. You know?

I understand it's frustrating, but we were all there during development and supported it knowing that things like this can happen. It was worth more to SMS to do than to not do it. That now it has indeed become frustrating is well, you are right, we are all grown ups. They can't offer a solution for this. They can only try to improve if it is a major thing across all users for the next title in the IP. They can't just tear out the Steam dependency nor can they just whip up a client/server that isn't dependent on steam.

They aren't saying that because they are against the community or whatever. There's just some things that can not be done.

Sankyo
22-09-2015, 19:28
Personally I think this is a case of expecting too much. Perhaps due to the high expectations created for some, perhaps because of people projecting their wishes too much onto the project.

It's all been said before so I'll keep my personal view and opinion short: SMS ventured into very unknown territory, they aimed very high and, IMO not very surprisingly, had to de-scope along the way to get it all done. I too would have liked to see more, and better in some areas, but I'm looking at pCARS what it is, what it is going to be in the next two years, and what SMS is trying to achieve. True, that's still very much a developer/WMD point of view and not a consumer point of view, but again I'm looking what is there and how good it is, not at what I think is missing. And FYI I bought the Limited Edition just like any other end-user, so I'm a consumer too ;)

I sympathize with those experiencing serious bugs in the game and complaining about it, but I do not agree with those judging SMS for what they should have delivered according to their personal opinion and wishes.

MABlosfeld
22-09-2015, 19:31
SO WHY PCARS STARTED IF YOU WANT TO GO NFS DIRECTION?

SMS seems to give more support to casual gamers
it may be more lucrative or easy to solve the problems.
I am a professional player, my son is 2 years old and does not play NFS.

Sankyo
22-09-2015, 19:33
SO WHY PCARS STARTED IF YOU WANT TO GO NFS DIRECTION?

Who is "you", and why would he/she/they want to go in the NFS direction?

BTW please try and fix your caps lock.

fresquito
22-09-2015, 19:40
It's fine Fresquito, I understand what you're saying. But they aren't offering a solution because they *can't* not because they don't want to. It's a little unfair to say you do not any longer trust them when they literally can not do the thing that you want them to do with any rationality. It's simply not possible. You know?

I understand it's frustrating, but we were all there during development and supported it knowing that things like this can happen. It was worth more to SMS to do than to not do it. That now it has indeed become frustrating is well, you are right, we are all grown ups. They can't offer a solution for this. They can only try to improve if it is a major thing across all users for the next title in the IP. They can't just tear out the Steam dependency nor can they just whip up a client/server that isn't dependent on steam.

They aren't saying that because they are against the community or whatever. There's just some things that can not be done.
I disagree they can't. I could agree it's not worth it for them. I could agree it's too much trouble for little gain. But I disagree it's not possible. This wouldn't be the first game that switches systems. Games dropping GFWL come to mind. Maybe there doesn't need to be something as drastic, maybe there's something to talk or share between SMS and Valve. Maybe there is not. Like I said, I'm neither asking anything here nor blaming anybody. Maybe SMS didn't anticipate these problems when tying themselves to Steam. But the reality is that a lot of communities are suffering the problems I wrote here.

It's SMS's duty to decide what's best for them as it's mine to decide what's best for me.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 19:44
I disagree they can't. I could agree it's not worth it for them. I could agree it's too much trouble for little gain. But I disagree it's not possible. This wouldn't be the first game that switches systems. Games dropping GFWL come to mind. Maybe there doesn't need to be something as drastic, maybe there's something to talk or share between SMS and Valve. Maybe there is not. Like I said, I'm neither asking anything here nor blaming anybody. Maybe SMS didn't anticipate these problems when tying themselves to Steam. But the reality is that a lot of communities are suffering the problems I wrote here.

You are aware that the games dropping GFWL did so to move to the same platform Pcars is running on...and so are subject to the same issues. No it wouldn't be the first time, sure. And you're right - it's not impossible. Nothing is impossible. That's why I said it wasn't rational and that they can't do it.

They can't afford to do this for a small subsection of the larger community when there are other problems at hand. SMS anticipated these problems fine. There was a multiple dozens of page thread about it at WMD where staff and users discussed this at length over weeks and months.



It's SMS's duty to decide what's best for them as it's mine to decide what's best for me.

If you're not going to be active in the community anymore, I wish you the best and hope you find what you're looking for some day =)

flymar
22-09-2015, 19:52
...IMO not very surprisingly, had to de-scope along the way to get it all done...
I guess we're long over this part. The time is now and the question remains about the future life cycle of the product. What way it will go. I'm for sure will be a bit disappointed if it will end just with another car/track DLCs. Sure it can get you excited but IMHO it's not enough.

R74NN
22-09-2015, 20:10
To clarify this last sentence a bit... what I was trying to say is that reading this post, I cannot helped but imagine you thanking SMS for the benefits with one hand, and slapping them in the face with the other.

Are you trying to say, that SMS were doing WMD members a favor with these revenues? Well, it was just a business - members helped with their money to make the game and the profits were split after. I admit, a unique case, but just a business. If I don't like how the game turned out, it doesn't mean I have to give up on the deal.

For a lot of people the revenues were just the secondary motivation, the primary one being the possibility to play the best racing game ever made. Let's say not everything went that great.

MABlosfeld
22-09-2015, 20:18
REVENUE seems to appeal to casual gamers

flymar
22-09-2015, 20:26
REVENUE seems to appeal to casual gamersIf you put thousands of bucks in the project it doesn't matter if you casual or not.:)

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 20:44
Keep calm and wait for project cars 3 or 4, 5 ,6...

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-wait-for-patch-5-0.png

Mr.Smoke
22-09-2015, 21:12
Rather sad to see someone who was involved in the devolpment come to this concensus after knowing the risk factor of being Steam dependant.

After hearing about all the bickering & shenanigans that happened within WMD during development im almost happy i passed on the pCARS2 toolpack.

I think SMS has done a fantastic job with this game & im very much looking forward to future improvements, patches, content and of course, future titles. It can only get better from here, right?

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 21:16
Personally I think this is a case of expecting too much. Perhaps due to the high expectations created for some, perhaps because of people projecting their wishes too much onto the project.

Oh come on, We expected to much for the game to work?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-09-2015, 21:16
After hearing about all the bickering & shenanigans that happened within WMD during development im almost happy i passed on the pCARS2 toolpack.There was some of that, but for me at least it was 99.9% amazing. =)

cluck
22-09-2015, 21:39
Oh come on, We expected to much for the game to work?Remco is referring to WMD member expectations during development and what the final product might contain, not what the 1M+ customers expect :).

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 21:43
Remco is referring to WMD member expectations during development and what the final product might contain, not what the 1M+ customers expect :).

Did WMD members not expect the final game to work?

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 21:45
Did WMD members not expect the final game to work?

It works just fine bud

AdM1
22-09-2015, 21:53
It works just fine for me bud

EFA.

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 21:55
EFA.

Listen, get a wheel, preferably one with ffb.. Slip PCARS into your console and then come back and tell me that it doesn't work..

Flat_out
22-09-2015, 21:56
It works just fine bud

You have got to be joking.Right?

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 21:58
You have got to be joking.Right?

Read above

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 21:59
You have got to be joking.Right?

Must be a WMD member ;)

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 22:01
Listen , if it doesn't work for you, throw it away, take it back or do what ever necessary and quit coming back here.. its really that easy

AdM1
22-09-2015, 22:02
Listen, get a wheel, preferably one with ffb.. Slip PCARS into your console and then come back and tell me that it doesn't work..

I don't need to buy a wheel to tell you it doesn't work. How is a wheel going to magically fix game bugs? My problems aren't related to the controller.

If anything my problem would be even bigger because I wouldn't be able to set and save the FFB settings along with the tune file.

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 22:04
I don't need to buy a wheel to tell you it doesn't work. How is a wheel going to magically fix game bugs? My problems aren't related to the controller.

If anything my problem would be even bigger because I wouldn't be able to set and save the FFB settings along with the tune file.

wow, I didn't realize how clueless you really are.. Discussion over

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 22:06
wow, I didn't realize how clueless you really are.. Discussion over
Och at least your happy thats the main thing.

Flat_out
22-09-2015, 22:06
Listen , if it doesn't work for you, throw it away, take it back or do what ever necessary and quit coming back here.. its really that easy

No I'm quite happy to wait and get the finished game that I paid money for.
But I don't pretend its near that yet.
And I would love to know where the lucky 4-5 people on this forum bought their golden ,everything works great game from?

AdM1
22-09-2015, 22:07
wow, I didn't realize how clueless you really are.. Discussion over

Clueless because I don't think a wheel will fix the games bugs? LOL! Okay then buddy if you say so. Pissing myself over that tbh.

Hey everyone no need for any more patches just buy a wheel and it'll all be good ;).

'clueless' oh the irony.

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 22:09
Clueless because I don't think a wheel will fix the games bugs? LOL! Okay then buddy if you say so. Pissing myself over that tbh.

Hey everyone no need for any more patches just buy a wheel and it'll all be good ;).

'clueless' oh the irony.

I have a wheel it does not fix the bugs, All it does is introduce insane amounts of FFB problems! If your on pad do not get a wheel!

AdM1
22-09-2015, 22:10
I have a wheel it does not fix the bugs, All it does is introduce insane amounts of FFB problems! If your on pad do not get a wheel!

Figures, I think this guy is in dreamland.

azidahaka
22-09-2015, 22:11
Listen, get a wheel, preferably one with ffb.. Slip PCARS into your console and then come back and tell me that it doesn't work..

It doesn't work as supposed.

Really issues are everywhere even tough i love the game T_T

Saying it just work and being blind about the mass of bugs won't make users who bought the game justice, and not help the guys that made the game fix them faster.

Lukeymonster
22-09-2015, 22:14
No I'm quite happy to wait and get the finished game that I paid money for.
But I don't pretend its near that yet.
And I would love to know where the lucky 4-5 people on this forum bought their golden ,everything works great game from?

I got mine digitally and have it on my external. Lost my game save once though because of the saved replay issue but now i just don't save replays. Other than that I don't run into issues. I wish there was a concrete explanation as to why people are having such polarizing experiences with this game.

andycass
22-09-2015, 22:17
Listen , if it doesn't work for you, throw it away, take it back or do what ever necessary and quit coming back here.. its really that easy

WOW just WOW...;) Clearly the games perfect on the xbox1... The only thing you have to do now is convince everybody else. Because you've convinced me. Why are you not on MSM's payroll?

azidahaka
22-09-2015, 22:21
I got mine digitally and have it on my external. Lost my game save once though because of the saved replay issue but now i just don't save replays. Other than that I don't run into issues. I wish there was a concrete explanation as to why people are having such polarizing experiences with this game.

Real problem is that the bugs hit randomly most of the time...

Look at second video here:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39670-Aaaand-the-new-exciting-bug-of-the-FLYING-away-car!-T_T-All-record-smashed!

After a landmine the cars starts to lift from the track and flies on the skys at over 500km/h... I had a couple landmines before this patch and this was my 3rd time playing with 4.0.

I can understand all kinds of land mines after the suspension geometry bug was confirmed. But how is it possible to the car to lift of and FLY?!

And i have to admit that i was lucky so far with the bugs! Now everytime i get on track i'm concerned T_T

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 22:22
When you buy a product you didn't research properly, and it turns out to be a lemon (to you) and your complaining doesn't magically fix it in a femtosecond....then it's perfectly in your right to give up on it, go somewhere else and leave the community of active players who are enjoying the game at peace.

None of you are special because you bought a sixty dollar, or thirty dollar or twenty pound or eight thousand yen or whatever videogame. There are far too many "This game doesn't work." posts for a game that literally doesn't work. So either you are playing the game, or you're only here to complain about the game you feel you are a special person for buying simply because you bought it even though you had the ability and time to research the product to see if it had the features you wanted or worked in the way you wanted it to.

Many of you blame SMS for not fixing this bug, or that bug. But you refuse to blame yourselves for making the purchase in the first place. In several months, none of your complaining has amounted to anything but creating vitriolic posts, dissent in the forums, and negativity in the community.

Del Zotto might not be correct in that the game really doesn't work for you in the way you want it to. But he is correct in that you can end all this negative stress by leaving the community rather than complaining until a patch gets released, and than complaining that it didn't fix your problem. You can't just assume that every next patch is going to fix whatever problem you had. Some of the problems even were fixed, but missed the check-in time for the patch.

Either stay because you enjoy the game and the people playing it, or perhaps go to another community you will be happier at.

This round and round cancer on every thread is becoming ridiculous. Everyone understands - Many players are frustrated at the game especially on consoles. It does not need hijacking every single unrelated thread for reminding the community that you guys exist.

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 22:22
WOW just WOW...;) Clearly the games perfect on the xbox1... The only thing you have to do now is convince everybody else. Because you've convinced me. Why are you not on MSM's payroll?

Just keep coming back here to complain.. That'll surely help.. If that doesn't work, refer back to my throwing it away or taking it back to the store comment

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 22:29
Yes exactly, Everyday all I see are the same few people on here complaining EVERY SINGLE DAY...

azidahaka
22-09-2015, 22:30
When you buy a product you didn't research properly, and it turns out to be a lemon (to you) and your complaining doesn't magically fix it in a femtosecond....then it's perfectly in your right to give up on it, go somewhere else and leave the community of active players who are enjoying the game at peace.

None of you are special because you bought a sixty dollar, or thirty dollar or twenty pound or eight thousand yen or whatever videogame. There are far too many "This game doesn't work." posts for a game that literally doesn't work. So either you are playing the game, or you're only here to complain about the game you feel you are a special person for buying simply because you bought it even though you had the ability and time to research the product to see if it had the features you wanted or worked in the way you wanted it to.

Many of you blame SMS for not fixing this bug, or that bug. But you refuse to blame yourselves for making the purchase in the first place. In several months, none of your complaining has amounted to anything but creating vitriolic posts, dissent in the forums, and negativity in the community.

Del Zotto might not be correct in that the game really doesn't work for you in the way you want it to. But he is correct in that you can end all this negative stress by leaving the community rather than complaining until a patch gets released, and than complaining that it didn't fix your problem. You can't just assume that every next patch is going to fix whatever problem you had. Some of the problems even were fixed, but missed the check-in time for the patch.

Either stay because you enjoy the game and the people playing it, or perhaps go to another community you will be happier at.

This round and round cancer on every thread is becoming ridiculous. Everyone understands - Many players are frustrated at the game especially on consoles. It does not need hijacking every single unrelated thread for reminding the community that you guys exist.

While i moderately agree with you, you have to admit that the pre-release reviews from people that were beta testers here on gtplanet or other forums never highlighted this massive issues and mostly were praising a "stable game" or one with just minor issues... I'm not sure when landmines for example started to pop out. Surely i wasn't aware until i had the game home and saw them happening to others, and then to myself.

At least myself i preordered base on those informations and the words that the game was delays because it needed minor polish. Some of the issues are not what i would call minor. That's all.

I mean i can live with pitstop bugs (urrrrgh), audio issues, ffb being weid or limp at times, online options missing, but landmines are something that really make you shut down console and do something else.

hope i didn't sound bad or harsh, but i just had the marvellous experience i posted before and i'll need some days before i'll cool down and try again. I'm a league host on mondays and race in another championship on sundays. I'll show up and turn wheel hoping me and other will have luck to start and finish. Not the best feeling you surely understand.

Roger Prynne
22-09-2015, 22:35
While i moderately agree with you, you have to admit that the pre-release reviews from people that were beta testers here on gtplanet or other forums never highlighted this massive issues and mostly were praising a "stable game" or one with just minor issues... I'm not sure when landmines for example started to pop out. Surely i wasn't aware until i had the game home and saw them happening to others, and then to myself.

At least myself i preordered base on those informations and the words that the game was delays because it needed minor polish. Some of the issues are not what i would call minor. That's all.

I mean i can live with pitstop bugs (urrrrgh), audio issues, ffb being weid or limp at times, online options missing, but landmines are something that really make you shut down console and do something else.

hope i didn't sound bad or harsh, but i just had the marvellous experience i posted before and i'll need some days before i'll cool down and try again. I'm a league host on mondays and race in another championship on sundays. I'll show up and turn wheel hoping me and other will have luck to start and finish. Not the best feeling you surely understand.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39365-bmw-320-gr-5&p=1121559&viewfull=1#post1121559

ermo
22-09-2015, 22:36
Did WMD members not expect the final game to work?

Correct; given how the last 9 months or so played out over at WMD (and the scale of the project and its features), I did not personally expect Project CARS to work particularly well at launch from a purely consumer perspective. In other words, I expected the increased testing coverage from the influx of early adopters to expose hitherto unknown issues. And issues by definition cannot be fixed before they are known and reproducible by the developers.

To elaborate, I thought we were going to need 3-6 months in "Open Beta" with testing under real-world conditions before the product could be considered 'polished' (where 'polished' is better and more refined/fleshed out than 'release quality'). As it stands, it appears that this might coincide with patch 5.0 or maybe even patch 6.0. As for the OP, I happen to think that the only error in judgement that fresquito is 'guilty' of is promoting pCARS as a league tool when the features for it were simply not present yet. I applaud fresquito's valiant effort to work around the missing functionality and hope that he will one day return to Project CARS to find it in better shape for serious sim league use.

Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic that things will be very good 3-6 months from now in terms of overall stability and that more niche features such as league functionality will be implemented to a reasonable standard within 6-12 months from now. If pCARS does not grow such functionality within a reasonable timeframe, my guess is that it will be considered a loss by the serious league organizers and that, as such, it will take some effort to regain whatever trust will have been lost in the franchise and SMS by those who self-identify as serious sim racers.

I should probably also point out that I trust SMS to do things in the order that makes financial and development sense to them and the Project CARS franchise. They have, in my experience, bent over backwards to keep their word and deliver to the best of their abilities given the real world constraints they were (and are?) facing. And I trust them to do just that going forward, but the evidence also points to the fact that it will very much be on their own terms and timelines (Ian & Co. have been quite clear that they don't take kindly to people telling them what to do and how or when to do it). SMS didn't go indie and bet the farm on 100% creative control for nothing, I think... :)

Flat_out
22-09-2015, 22:36
When you buy a product you didn't research properly, and it turns out to be a lemon (to you) and your complaining doesn't magically fix it in a femtosecond....then it's perfectly in your right to give up on it, go somewhere else and leave the community of active players who are enjoying the game at peace.

None of you are special because you bought a sixty dollar, or thirty dollar or twenty pound or eight thousand yen or whatever videogame. There are far too many "This game doesn't work." posts for a game that literally doesn't work. So either you are playing the game, or you're only here to complain about the game you feel you are a special person for buying simply because you bought it even though you had the ability and time to research the product to see if it had the features you wanted or worked in the way you wanted it to.

Many of you blame SMS for not fixing this bug, or that bug. But you refuse to blame yourselves for making the purchase in the first place. In several months, none of your complaining has amounted to anything but creating vitriolic posts, dissent in the forums, and negativity in the community.

Del Zotto might not be correct in that the game really doesn't work for you in the way you want it to. But he is correct in that you can end all this negative stress by leaving the community rather than complaining until a patch gets released, and than complaining that it didn't fix your problem. You can't just assume that every next patch is going to fix whatever problem you had. Some of the problems even were fixed, but missed the check-in time for the patch.

Either stay because you enjoy the game and the people playing it, or perhaps go to another community you will be happier at.

This round and round cancer on every thread is becoming ridiculous. Everyone understands - Many players are frustrated at the game especially on consoles. It does not need hijacking every single unrelated thread for reminding the community that you guys exist.

That's what you would be happy with.All the bugs swept under the carpet and all the complainers to magically disappear.
I'm sorry that I didn't do my research and find out the game wasn't finished when I bought it!
But that's where we are and were not going to go away until its a fully working 'sim'

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 22:37
While i moderately agree with you, you have to admit that the pre-release reviews from people that were beta testers here on gtplanet or other forums never highlighted this massive issues and mostly were praising a "stable game" or one with just minor issues... I'm not sure when landmines for example started to pop out. Surely i wasn't aware until i had the game home and saw them happening to others, and then to myself.

At least myself i preordered base on those informations and the words that the game was delays because it needed minor polish. Some of the issues are not what i would call minor. That's all

Believe me I understand this, but please keep in mind that most of the WMD members or Press pre-release had access to PC builds of the game, and the PC build of the game was largely functional at release and remains having some minor bugs that of course do need ironing out, but are not intrinsic to the function of the game.

PS4 and Xbox1 reviews were not in general as kind as pre-release content, and more or less the user reviews of both are telling. There are reasons behind this - Bandai Namco UK dropped the ball on the QA testing for consoles and this was outside of both WMD's and SMS's control. Either because of a communications breakdown or because of non-communication in general. Regardless, it is CLEAR that the console versions were released in poor states and ARE being improved upon as quickly as they can be.

I am not angry at Bandai Namco UK, I infact adore that they are the publisher behind this title. This is simply a reality of console QA these days in which the QA process doesn't really come up to snuff in general. They are not the only ones. At the very least, Project Cars was not released in the same state as a Bethesda or Ubisoft console game and this should be of some small worth.



I mean i can live with pitstop bugs (urrrrgh), audio issues, ffb being weid or limp at times, online options missing, but landmines are something that really make you shut down console and do something else.

hope i didn't sound bad or harsh, but i just had the marvellous experience i posted before and i'll need some days before i'll cool down and try again. I'm a league host on mondays and race in another championship on sundays. I'll show up and turn wheel hoping me and other will have luck to start and finish. Not the best feeling you surely understand.

It's not bad or harsh to speak the truth. I don't want people to never speak of issues in the game. However to make the same complaint daily for days and weeks on end as though it is the end of the world - this is something that can be curbed, and those complaining would be much happier people if they simply didn't focus on these aspects so often and instead found something that made them joyous. Happy people are much better people than sad people.

Mr.Smoke
22-09-2015, 22:39
No I'm quite happy to wait and get the finished game that I paid money for.
But I don't pretend its near that yet.
And I would love to know where the lucky 4-5 people on this forum bought their golden ,everything works great game from?

Bought mine at gamestop. Maybe the wal-mart copies are duds?!?!

Flat_out
22-09-2015, 22:45
Bought mine at gamestop. Maybe the wal-mart copies are duds?!?!

Maybe because their UK supermarket brand Asda is selling it for £10.

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 22:46
When you buy a product you didn't research properly, and it turns out to be a lemon (to you) and your complaining doesn't magically fix it in a femtosecond....then it's perfectly in your right to give up on it, go somewhere else and leave the community of active players who are enjoying the game at peace.

None of you are special because you bought a sixty dollar, or thirty dollar or twenty pound or eight thousand yen or whatever videogame. There are far too many "This game doesn't work." posts for a game that literally doesn't work. So either you are playing the game, or you're only here to complain about the game you feel you are a special person for buying simply because you bought it even though you had the ability and time to research the product to see if it had the features you wanted or worked in the way you wanted it to.

Many of you blame SMS for not fixing this bug, or that bug. But you refuse to blame yourselves for making the purchase in the first place. In several months, none of your complaining has amounted to anything but creating vitriolic posts, dissent in the forums, and negativity in the community.

Del Zotto might not be correct in that the game really doesn't work for you in the way you want it to. But he is correct in that you can end all this negative stress by leaving the community rather than complaining until a patch gets released, and than complaining that it didn't fix your problem. You can't just assume that every next patch is going to fix whatever problem you had. Some of the problems even were fixed, but missed the check-in time for the patch.

Either stay because you enjoy the game and the people playing it, or perhaps go to another community you will be happier at.

This round and round cancer on every thread is becoming ridiculous. Everyone understands - Many players are frustrated at the game especially on consoles. It does not need hijacking every single unrelated thread for reminding the community that you guys exist.

I honestly cannot believe what i have just read, OK i admit i did not read into PCars to much before release i knew it was from the SHIFT devs and did not expect much (might as well be honest right?) However i did look into it more a year before release and again and again after it got delayed. I startyed watching vid after vid on Youtube and was mightily impressed......I went out and bought myself a GT Omega Pro cockpit, I bought myself a T300 and then went out and bought the Pro Pedals and waited very excitedly as this would be my first real sim if you dont count Shift, GT and Forza.

All seemed well...every vid i watched looked amazing i would watch vids nearly every single day anticipating the release, Rene Rast vids just looked INCREDIBLE!!!! ... but these vids did not show up the insane amount of bugs were experiencing on PS4 right now, The game does not work if were encountering game breaken bugs every night or every second night which alot of us are. I do not want to be here moaning day and night i'd much rather be playing a game that works!

Saying it's the gamers fault this game is not working is just baffling to say the least!

AdM1
22-09-2015, 22:50
I honestly cannot believe what i have just read, OK i admit i did not read into PCars to much before release i knew it was from the SHIFT devs and did not expect much (might as well be honest right?) However i did look into it more a year before release and again and again after it got delayed. I startyed watching vid after vid on Youtube and was mightily impressed......I went out and bought myself a GT Omega Pro cockpit, I bought myself a T300 and then went out and bought the Pro Pedals and waited very excitedly as this would be my first real sim if you dont count Shift, GT and Forza.

All seemed well...every vid i watched looked amazing i would watch vids nearly every single day anticipating the release, Rene Rast vids just looked INCREDIBLE!!!! ... but these vids did not show up the insane amount of bugs were experiencing on PS4 right now, The game does not work if were encountering game breaken bugs every night or every second night which alot of us are. I do not want to be here moaning day and night i'd much rather be playing a game that works!

Saying it's the gamers fault this game is not working is just baffling to say the least!

I honestly don't understand the mentality behind his thinking.

Del Zotto x82x
22-09-2015, 22:51
I honestly cannot believe what i have just read, OK i admit i did not read into PCars to much before release i knew it was from the SHIFT devs and did not expect much (might as well be honest right?) However i did look into it more a year before release and again and again after it got delayed. I startyed watching vid after vid on Youtube and was mightily impressed......I went out and bought myself a GT Omega Pro cockpit, I bought myself a T300 and then went out and bought the Pro Pedals and waited very excitedly as this would be my first real sim if you dont count Shift, GT and Forza.

All seemed well...every vid i watched looked amazing i would watch vids nearly every single day anticipating the release, Rene Rast vids just looked INCREDIBLE!!!! ... but these vids did not show up the insane amount of bugs were experiencing on PS4 right now, The game does not work if were encountering game breaken bugs every night or every second night which alot of us are. I do not want to be here moaning day and night i'd much rather be playing a game that works!

Saying it's the gamers fault this game is not working is just baffling to say the least!

So whos fault is it that you spent all that money?? SMS?

Angst1974
22-09-2015, 22:52
Honestly , I think the OP wants to play iRacing . I choose pCars over iRacing , because pCars offered more of what I wanted. Not to say either choice is "better" or "worse" we all want different things

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 22:52
Saying it's the gamers fault this game is not working is just baffling to say the least!

Flaw3d, read my posts again. Both of them. I'm not blaming users for the game 'not working'. In the slightest. I'm blaming users for feeling so entitled as to have their game presented to them like a burger king whopper and get everything their way when that's not a reasonable expectation and it was clear from release that the console versions were suffering.

I understand that console players went right out and bought the game and hardware after seeing the loads of youtube stuff and pre-release stuff. I get that. But a lot of that, perhaps all of it, was not on your platform.

In this case it is like a reverse of what PC players often get with bad ports. Truly, I am saddened that the console versions have issues that need addressing. I know many players on consoles, and though most of them are quite happy there are a few with major issues and concerns. I hope they are fixed. But I am not going to sympathize with folks who make the same complaints every single day, sometimes hourly.

This thread had nothing to do with any of this. Fresquito was venting his frustration at what he thought the developer and the development platform would bring him and his community/league and he did not get his wishes. It wasn't because of bugs or consoles or bad games or good games - it was because of a fundamental difference in his views he thought he would share.

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 22:57
So whos fault is it that you spent all that money?? SMS?

It;s not SMS fault i spent £700 on a cockpit, wheel and pedal set to play their game, But it's their fault my £700 worth of gear does not work properly to play their game. I mean really im going easy and not even bringing in the awful awful FFB settings that seems to spoil my enjoyment even more!

It's been a very very expensive experience :(


Flaw3d, read my posts again. Both of them. I'm not blaming users for the game 'not working'. In the slightest. I'm blaming users for feeling so entitled as to have their game presented to them like a burger king whopper and get everything their way when that's not a reasonable expectation and it was clear from release that the console versions were suffering.

I understand that console players went right out and bought the game and hardware after seeing the loads of youtube stuff and pre-release stuff. I get that. But a lot of that, perhaps all of it, was not on your platform.

In this case it is like a reverse of what PC players often get with bad ports. Truly, I am saddened that the console versions have issues that need addressing. I know many players on consoles, and though most of them are quite happy there are a few with major issues and concerns. I hope they are fixed. But I am not going to sympathize with folks who make the same complaints every single day, sometimes hourly.

This thread had nothing to do with any of this. Fresquito was venting his frustration at what he thought the developer and the development platform would bring him and his community/league and he did not get his wishes. It wasn't because of bugs or consoles or bad games or good games - it was because of a fundamental difference in his views he thought he would share.

Fair enough i get what your saying now, But still they brought it out for PS4 in all it's state. We really want to love the game...i did for a while but patch 4.0 is just a massive kick in the teeth and i feel after 6 months enough has to be enough.

Honestly im totally gutted to be writing this shit!

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:06
I get it mate. I hope these things are fixed soon. I hope at least the FFB settings get changed up using the ones the community have come up, which would help a lot.

When it comes to the bugs however, the ones of these that have been around since launch or for a while since other various patches - It needs to be thought of from the perspective that this simply isn't something easy to fix. If it's taking a long time to fix a major bug, probably the bug is to blame. Should QA have found the bug before release and had the game delayed longer? Yes. Absolutely. In a perfect world this is how things work. However, nothing about Project Cars development or release was perfect and there was a lot of pre-release bad to take with all that shiney good stuff - Delays, major development changes. The process was rocky. This isn't an average AAA release from a known developer.

I'm sorry about all that bux you spent, really. I know someone else with the same issues and they aren't best pleased. But they have found other things to enjoy in the game as well (and most importantly, as is the point, do not engage the same discussion ad-infinitum.)

SUBGTRACER
22-09-2015, 23:20
Looks like a lot of people are very disappointed in the product itself and its current state and they have every right to be , I don't think its about what people expected or what they thought the product was going to be like its about the stability of the product and its , well not good to put it mildly. ( not platform specific either)

AAA product that may be fixed within 6-8 months not really what I would call AAA in the first place. Unfortunately the whole community having input is not was ever going to happen , the dev teams skillset was going to determine what happens and what doesn't with the product.

I will wait for those patches as the game has huge potential but if it ever gets there is another thing , as it stands at the moment with all the patches that have come and gone it doesn't look positive to me.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:27
AAA product that may be fixed within 6-8 months not really what I would call AAA in the first place. Unfortunately the whole community having input is not was ever going to happen , the dev teams skillset was going to determine what happens and what doesn't with the product.


AAA games unfortunately get released in poor states fairly common. Look at the release fiascos of Watch_Dogs or Assassin's Creed from Ubisoft. It really does happen. In fact - it's mostly common that a game will be released with glaring flaws.

To your point though. SMS took a ton of input from the community. Some of the things in the game and even the way the game itself turned out were direct results of WMD members. There was a lot of communication in WMD, and though a good many WMD members aren't pleased with what turned out, there is some truth here too - At some points, SMS had to do what SMS had to do in order to make this videogame. This is an undeniable fact. However, the community did hold sway in how that game (is supposed to) function. In many ways - WMD failed SMS more than SMS ever failed WMD, and I'm not saying either "Failed" in the sense of crushing defeat but rather the expectations.

To say that SMS simply took no guidance and went on their own plans is simply put - wrong.

SUBGTRACER
22-09-2015, 23:32
Its easy to listen to peoples suggestions if you take them onboard that's a whole other story :)

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 23:33
AAA games unfortunately get released in poor states fairly common. Look at the release fiascos of Watch_Dogs or Assassin's Creed from Ubisoft. It really does happen. In fact - it's mostly common that a game will be released with glaring flaws.

To your point though. SMS took a ton of input from the community. Some of the things in the game and even the way the game itself turned out were direct results of WMD members. There was a lot of communication in WMD, and though a good many WMD members aren't pleased with what turned out, there is some truth here too - At some points, SMS had to do what SMS had to do in order to make this videogame. This is an undeniable fact. However, the community did hold sway in how that game (is supposed to) function. In many ways - WMD failed SMS more than SMS ever failed WMD, and I'm not saying either "Failed" in the sense of crushing defeat but rather the expectations.

To say that SMS simply took no guidance and went on their own plans is simply put - wrong.

SMS should never aspire to release a game with the amount of bugs as a Ubisoft game to make it passable. Ubisoft are the new EA and no one wants that.

You say it's common that most games will be released with glaring bugs, i disagree. Most games i can complete without noticing game breaking bugs or indeed bugs even though they could be there i dont notice them...not the same as pcars.

I honestly think that SMS not working in the same building and working from home is the case of the issues with these bugs. For me SMS need to be together to make a game.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:36
Its easy to listen to peoples suggestions if you take them onboard that's a whole other story :)

There's content in the game that I specifically lobbied for and helped lobby for that SMS either didn't mention until users brought it up, or kept in special hidden design documents. I'm going to go with the first. I'm allergic to tin.


Edit:

SMS should never aspire to release a game with the amount of bugs as a Ubisoft game to make it passable. Ubisoft are the new EA and no one wants that.

You say it's common that most games will be released with glaring bugs, i disagree. Most games i can complete without noticing game breaking bugs or indeed bugs even though they could be there i dont notice them...not the same as pcars.

I honestly think that SMS not working in the same building and working from home is the case of the issues with these bugs. For me SMS need to be together to make a game.

How many AAA games do you play that aspire to be genre defining and innovative, though? There's console players who don't notice many/any bugs on Pcars, too. So it's still a matter of perspective. I'm not saying they aspired to it - I'm saying that par is at least still par. Even if 'par' means 'subpar' to the consumer.

I doubt Ubisoft or EA or Bethesda like to release bug ridden games, either. I doubt they all do it purposefully "just because." There are real complications in game development. Some of them bit Pcars.

crowtrobot
22-09-2015, 23:39
AAA games unfortunately get released in poor states fairly common. Look at the release fiascos of Watch_Dogs or Assassin's Creed from Ubisoft. It really does happen. In fact - it's mostly common that a game will be released with glaring flaws.
Why are you contented by lumping pCARS into a category with those titles? Just because several well-known properties have released in poor states doesn't mean it is OK for others to do the same; and I thought the point of going indie was to prove that things could be done differently and be done well.

I've been playing MGS V for 30 some hours, no bugs, no crashes, just gameplay. Members may have gotten used to dealing with such things from the WMD process, but don't patronize people for expecting their product to be fully baked when they buy it.

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:42
Why are you contented by lumping pCARS into a category with those titles? Just because several well-known properties have released in poor states doesn't mean it is OK for others to do the same; and I thought the point of going indie was to prove that things could be done differently and be done well.

I've been playing MGS V for 30 some hours, no bugs, no crashes, just gameplay. Members may have gotten used to dealing with such things from the WMD process, but don't patronize people for expecting their product to be fully baked when they buy it.


I'm not saying they aspired to it - I'm saying that par is at least still par. Even if 'par' means 'subpar' to the consumer.

I doubt Ubisoft or EA or Bethesda like to release bug ridden games, either. I doubt they all do it purposefully "just because." There are real complications in game development. Some of them bit Pcars.
.-.

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 23:43
There's content in the game that I specifically lobbied for and helped lobby for that SMS either didn't mention until users brought it up, or kept in special hidden design documents. I'm going to go with the first. I'm allergic to tin.


Edit:


How many AAA games do you play that aspire to be genre defining and innovative, though?



Cmon it's not genre defining and innovative if the game does not work!

What we have is a game that worked with the PC community to an extent, But defo does not work with a console community who expect the game to work out of the box even if it had a few bugs. Saying it;s got a 24 hour cycle holds no value if your running into a invisible wall at 4oclock in the bloody morning lol

SUBGTRACER
22-09-2015, 23:44
Why are you contented by lumping pCARS into a category with those titles? Just because several well-known properties have released in poor states doesn't mean it is OK for others to do the same; and I thought the point of going indie was to prove that things could be done differently and be done well.

I've been playing MGS V for 30 some hours, no bugs, no crashes, just gameplay. Members may have gotten used to dealing with such things from the WMD process, but don't patronize people for expecting their product to be fully baked when they buy it.

CLAP CLAP well done sir!

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:46
Cmon it's not genre defining and innovative if the game does not work!

Subjectivity.

Many years ago in Can-Am was a car with multiple engines powering multiple driveshafts. It was a wonderfully innovative idea.

...The car never actually moved properly.

That does not take the effort out of the innovation, it only shows that the car did not move properly and needed more work in order to.

Flaw3dGenius
22-09-2015, 23:47
Subjectivity.

Many years ago in Can-Am was a car with multiple engines powering multiple driveshafts. It was a wonderfully innovative idea.

...The car never actually moved properly.

That does not take the effort out of the innovation, it only shows that the car did not move properly and needed more work in order to.

Need i say more! What works for some will defo not work for others....If only SMS were as transperent as you : )

SUBGTRACER
22-09-2015, 23:48
And I would call that a broken car .

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:49
Need i say more! What works for some will defo not work for others....
Not the point of the post, but nonetheless still accurate.



If only SMS were as transperent as you : )

I'm going to take this as a compliment towards my honesty and candor and reply that I'm not a developer of videogames, nor a company who sells products. I'm just a Shin on the internet.


And I would call that a broken car .

So did they. Do you know what they did?

They went to every component manufacturer they could and complained it wasn't working properly, for day after day, they did this, until eventually they were all imprisoned for stalking general electric and ford motorcompany employees /s


No but seriously. They threw it away because they thought it was a broken car, too. Then they made a different one that ran properly. And they were happy.

SUBGTRACER
22-09-2015, 23:53
So did they. Do you know what they did?

They went to every component manufacturer they could and complained it wasn't working properly, for day after day, they did this, until eventually they were all imprisoned for stalking general electric and ford motorcompany employees /s


No but seriously. They threw it away because they thought it was a broken car, too. Then they made a different one that ran properly. And they were happy.

And that's where project cars 2 comes in :) sorry I had to

Shinzah
22-09-2015, 23:55
And that's where project cars 2 comes in :) sorry I had to

Except SMS didn't throw Project Cars away and start over making a more mundane thing out of proven working components.

So it's not really the same thing - rather, you could go and do or enjoy something that works.

Vennt
23-09-2015, 00:03
It's amazing the bugs a genre defining sim can suffer from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQRw69xTPck) :P

(Some of these should look familiar :D)

I mean, anyone remember the bouncing cars on the start-line (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWn7Ko8daU0) issue with GPL too?

Of course, I should have added something a bit more recent too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSOS4QjK9n0), for fairness sake. :D

fresquito
23-09-2015, 00:13
Sweet. I guess people like tooling everything at hand for their own personal battles.

I'll say no more in this thread seeing how things have turned out. I would like to thank ermo for his well put post and say in my defense that, at the time I started work on LFO Club (which, BTW, will continue their activity, I will just probably step down), SMS were still saying we would have league tools at release and never said otherwise before launch. Nor after. Like fair people use to say around here: I think everything goes down to communication. I mean no harm by saying this. I understand how stressful it was in the latest year for them. It's kinda a sad situation, really. But life goes on. I will enjoy the game for what it is and will follow the development of PC2 closely because I love seeing these blue people working.

Gravit8
23-09-2015, 00:34
Why are you contented by lumping pCARS into a category with those titles? Just because several well-known properties have released in poor states doesn't mean it is OK for others to do the same; and I thought the point of going indie was to prove that things could be done differently and be done well.

I've been playing MGS V for 30 some hours, no bugs, no crashes, just gameplay. Members may have gotten used to dealing with such things from the WMD process, but don't patronize people for expecting their product to be fully baked when they buy it.

I think the best way to wrap this up would be a long list of complete games to back the point.

I'll go with GTA5. Buggy as hell online yes. But also crazy ambitious. A success story IMO. Numbers don't lie.

But the core single player campaign has nothing in the way of bugs. Zero bugs in SP for a huge triple a title.
I'm sure the list is actually quite long.

Flaw3dGenius
23-09-2015, 00:47
Not the point of the post, but nonetheless still accurate.



I'm going to take this as a compliment towards my honesty and candor and reply that I'm not a developer of videogames, nor a company who sells products. I'm just a Shin on the internet.



So did they. Do you know what they did?

They went to every component manufacturer they could and complained it wasn't working properly, for day after day, they did this, until eventually they were all imprisoned for stalking general electric and ford motorcompany employees /s


No but seriously. They threw it away because they thought it was a broken car, too. Then they made a different one that ran properly. And they were happy.

2 bottles of wine, 4 cans of Coors kater...and i love this post!

roolll on pcars 2

Flaw3dGenius
23-09-2015, 00:50
Sweet. I guess people like tooling everything at hand for their own personal battles.

I'll say no more in this thread seeing how things have turned out. I would like to thank ermo for his well put post and say in my defense that, at the time I started work on LFO Club (which, BTW, will continue their activity, I will just probably step down), SMS were still saying we would have league tools at release and never said otherwise before launch. Nor after. Like fair people use to say around here: I think everything goes down to communication. I mean no harm by saying this. I understand how stressful it was in the latest year for them. It's kinda a sad situation, really. But life goes on. I will enjoy the game for what it is and will follow the development of PC2 closely because I love seeing these blue people working.

Maybe 60k racers were saying leagues were not needed while only 20k of you guys were wanting them, Of course im speculating i honestly have no idea how the racers of the 80k that put htier money upfront decided on the diredction of the game.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 00:52
2 bottles of wine, 4 cans of Coors kater...and i love this post!

roolll on pcars 2

I'm a big man, I'm gonna need more than 2 bottles and 4 cans...

ZiggyUK
23-09-2015, 00:57
It's amazing the bugs a genre defining sim can suffer from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQRw69xTPck) :P

I mean, anyone remember the bouncing cars on the start-line (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWn7Ko8daU0) issue with GPL too?

ah man that takes you back in time, same old bugs kicking about still :D

As much as I can appreciate fresquito's frustration we just have to do the best we can with what we have and continue to support the developers in any way we can.

BazzaLB
23-09-2015, 01:06
My expectations were based on comments made by SMS themselves. Did they set the goal too high? As an experienced developer, one would think they would have a great understanding of what was possible in the timeframe. The fact that they didn't after having worked in the racing game genre and produced many titles makes this miscalculation an even bigger surprise.

My slight disappointment is that the initial comments that pursuaded me to buy-in was that blame was being placed on EA the publisher for missing PC centric features in the shift series. However, SMS were getting back to their roots and putting the PC Sim enthusiast first and foremost with a view to then move the title to consoles. No more cut down features for PC players due to console consessions. That was what made me buy in and the features promised initially looked like this was going to be the case. I think on reflection this was a little disingenuous. Over time it became more evident that consoles and their limitations were the focus.

I use the term "slight dissapointment" because I got 400+ hours of entertainment essentially for free. As an investment over a 3 year period, I certainly had much better returns on my other much larger investments so with such a small buy in I certainly wasn't expecting much there in the first place. But as a PC sim racing enthusiast, I can fully understand some people's stronger dissapointment.

At the very least, complaints help developers improve their product and focus so its tiring when the usual suspects come in to post the usual unhelpful "you should have got a refund" or the even more laughable "if you don't like it then leave". This sort of attitude never helped improve consumer products over time. a better product is what most of us (surprisingly, not everyone) would like to see in the future.

Flaw3dGenius
23-09-2015, 01:09
I'm a big man, I'm gonna need more than 2 bottles and 4 cans...

Im a wee man at 5 7 haha

AdM1
23-09-2015, 01:43
The thing that a lot of people seem to overlook is that after about 2 or 3 delays the excuses were that they was making final finishing touches for a polished finish. Honestly? That had to be a complete bare faced lie surely? The product they promised us and the product we received were 2 different things. That's the truth.

Overall when the bugs are fixed it will be an incredible game but they still fed us lies as far as I'm concerned and there's nothing I hate more than a liar.

Honesty can go a long way even if it does make you look bad it's better than giving empty promises.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 01:45
Apparently the hope for a better product doesn't overcome your hate for liars.

That's good, hold on to that.

AdM1
23-09-2015, 01:47
Apparently the hope for a better product doesn't overcome your hate for liars.

That's good, hold on to that.

Just because I enjoy the game and get many hours of play from it doesn't mean I forget the empty promises that was given originally. You have to keep it in mind. Just a matter of being wise I guess.

Some are happy to be a bit naive or blinkered, usually comes from being a fanatic. People tend to overlook things easier when they are like this.

Why did they lie and why wasn't they honest? What else may they be lying about is what worries me..

SUBGTRACER
23-09-2015, 01:50
I think some of the fanaticism is slowly dropping off , just not for Shinzah :) ........... Not dishing you Shinzah each to there own.......

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 01:57
It's funny because you guys really have no idea, and that's not ha-ha funny. It's just a bit sad funny in a "Hm. That's funny." sort of way.

My enjoyment of Project Cars, WMD or SMS has really nothing to do with "Fanaticism".

Sometimes, some people find other things to enjoy in the same things that others dislike. I am not blind to the issues of the title. I only have a different perspective on things.

Flaw3dGenius
23-09-2015, 02:02
Ok guys im going to take a time out for a while seems SMS or the Mods are out to get me now which is a shame. Just been told i will be banned if i use the word "sh*t" again....

Maybe coming from Britain it's not a big deal and maybe in the USA or or mainland Europe they see that as a major offence....sorry guys if it offends you. Its normal language in Britain where the game is made may i add...but i have a feeling my card is marked due to my posts tonight which is such a shame! Maybe S**t is such an offensive word these days that maybe i deserve a ban but i highly doubt it and the mods just want me banned for telling the truth tonight on where PCars is at!

Gravit8
23-09-2015, 02:03
Having 80,000 investors will create a bit of Stockholm syndrome. We just ignore shilz. Easy enough to spot spam.

It's good to see common sense and consumer values prevail. ......Eventually.......

AdM1
23-09-2015, 02:12
Another thing that bugs me (pun intended) is that when you actually do find a clear obvious bug like so.. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38895-Cadwell-GP-Pit-bug

It just gets ignored. I can actually live with this bug, the fact no one at SMS seemed to care and the thread just bumps down to the bottomless pit is what is more annoying for me. I'd imagine it could cause trouble online in qualifying etc if people are lapping and then all of a sudden a car appears on the track..

andycass
23-09-2015, 02:14
Ok guys im going to take a time out for a while seems SMS or the Mods are out to get me now which is a shame. Just been told i will be banned if i use the word "sh*t" again....

Maybe coming from Britain it's not a big deal and maybe in the USA or or mainland Europe they see that as a major offence....sorry guys if it offends you. Its normal language in Britain where the game is made may i add...but i have a feeling my card is marked due to my posts tonight which is such a shame! Maybe S**t is such an offensive word these days that maybe i deserve a ban but i highly doubt it and the mods just want me banned for telling the truth tonight on where PCars is at!

It only becomes a major offence when you say something negative about the game. If you are positive about the game you can throw s**t all over the place;)

Flaw3dGenius
23-09-2015, 02:14
It only becomes a major offence when you say something negative about the game. If you are positive about the game you can throw s**t all over the place;)

The guy is American telling me im out of order...for the use of SH*T...you couldnae make it up!


Mahjik it is...think he has a wee bee in his bonnet! Terrible attitude...but it's ok he tells be he does not ban everyone that curses. :dejection: Fair enough if i used a word that deserved it.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 02:15
Another thing that bugs me (pun intended) is that when you actually do find a clear obvious bug like so.. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38895-Cadwell-GP-Pit-bug

It just gets ignored. I can actually live with this bug, the fact no one at SMS seemed to care and the thread just bumps down to the bottomless pit is what is more annoying for me. I'd imagine it could cause trouble online in qualifying etc if people are lapping and then all of a sudden a car appears on the track..

You must be mistaken. This links to your reporting of a bug that the one person who tried to help you couldn't replicate and you self-admitted it didn't happen every time.

Did you expect someone to hold your hand, or?

SUBGTRACER
23-09-2015, 02:18
can we take a breath guys , lets chill a little .

AdM1
23-09-2015, 02:18
You must be mistaken. This links to your reporting of a bug that the one person who tried to help you couldn't replicate and you self-admitted it didn't happen every time.

Did you expect someone to hold your hand, or?

Obvious troll but I'll respond anyway as I have nothing better to do.

Clearly I explain it depends on what pit that race gives you. Say there is probably 8 pits and then you are the 9th player you are going to get this problem. I know it because when I set online races on this track (a favorite) people would join not just the lobby but the actual race and then leave. Probably because they had this bug.

Still my point stand in there's an obvious bug that is ignored.

As I said you are clearly too much of a fanatic to see it.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 02:21
Obvious troll but I'll respond anyway as I have nothing better to do.

Clearly I explain it depends on what pit that race gives you. Say there is probably 8 pits and then you are the 9th player you are going to get this problem. I know it because when I set online races on this track (a favorite) people would join not just the lobby but the actual race and then leave. Probably because they had this bug.

Still my point stand in there's an obvious bug that is ignored.

1) An obvious bug gets replicated many times by many people saying "I also have this problem."
2) You're just not going to get a dev or mod response when your topic is mostly you having the problem and it is incredibly minor that doesn't seem to affect the majority of users.
3) There's nothing Trolly about this - it's common sense.
4) The rest of your post is speculation. People leave public races a lot. There's a few hundred other threads complaining about it. It's not a bug.

Edit:
5) Calling me whatever you want to call me, will not get your bug fixed nor will it change the reality.

AdM1
23-09-2015, 02:29
Obvious troll but I'll respond anyway as I have nothing better to do.

Clearly I explain it depends on what pit that race gives you. Say there is probably 8 pits and then you are the 9th player you are going to get this problem. I know it because when I set online races on this track (a favorite) people would join not just the lobby but the actual race and then leave. Probably because they had this bug.

Still my point stand in there's an obvious bug that is ignored.

As I said you are clearly too much of a fanatic to see it.

Just like to reiterate my point incase you missed it.. ;)

1) I have had the problem more than once, I don't think this is a commonly used track and a lot of people don't bother reporting as they assume such bugs are already being worked on. I think it could be replicated if they spent a few times coming in and out of the race until they ended up with this pit problem.
2) As above
3) You are a slight troll, we had a difference of opinion a week or so back and I actually said you seemed fair and wasn't condescending in your posts, since then I've noticed you posting more and I've changed my view, you are condescending and berate members for their problems. You know I'm right.. ;). I'll quote.. "Did you expect someone to hold your hand, or?".
4) Speculation yep, assumptions. Probably right on occasion but yes I am also aware people leave the lobbies but not usually immediately after joining hence my assumption.

My bug isn't what this thread is about anyway, I was just making a point in that even when you do post a thread illustrating a bug it's just ignored.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 02:38
Just like to reiterate my point incase you missed it.. ;)

1) I have had the problem more than once, I don't think this is a commonly used track and a lot of people don't bother reporting as they assume such bugs are already being worked on. I think it could be replicated if they spent a few times coming in and out of the race until they ended up with this pit problem.
2) As above
3) You are a slight troll, we had a difference a week or so back and I actually said you seemed fair and wasn't condescending in your posts, since then I've noticed you posting more and I've changed my view, you are condescending and berate members for their problems. You know I'm right.. ;). I'll quote.. "Did you expect someone to hold your hand, or?".
4) Speculation yep, assumptions. Probably right on occasion but yes I am also aware people leave the lobbies but not usually immediately after joining hence my assumption.

And mine that you missed.



Edit:
5) Calling me whatever you want to call me, will not get your bug fixed nor will it change the reality.


1) If they aren't reporting it, "They should try it and see!" isn't really conducive to "This needs to be fixed and deserves attention!" if it deserved attention, it would have gotten it. You're making speculative points on conjecture.
2) As above.
3) I'm really not. You're right, I was being condescending. Your example was poor and your position is flawed. As for "Berating". I don't think that word means what you think it means. I have done nothing even resembling "Berating" of another member over the issues they are having.
4) Yep. And yep. But none of this is a reason to make the assumption that the issue wasn't worth going without a developer or moderator saying something. It clearly wasn't. It was either so minor that people didn't feel a need to report it if they had it - On this forum? Someone would have been vocal or started another thread if it bothered them. Or it's so rare and random, that it's plain not worth prioritizing when some people have major difficulties even playing the game at all.

AdM1
23-09-2015, 02:51
And mine that you missed.




1) If they aren't reporting it, "They should try it and see!" isn't really conducive to "This needs to be fixed and deserves attention!" if it deserved attention, it would have gotten it. You're making speculative points on conjecture.
2) As above.
3) I'm really not. You're right, I was being condescending. Your example was poor and your position is flawed. As for "Berating". I don't think that word means what you think it means. I have done nothing even resembling "Berating" of another member over the issues they are having.
4) Yep. And yep. But none of this is a reason to make the assumption that the issue wasn't worth going without a developer or moderator saying something. It clearly wasn't. It was either so minor that people didn't feel a need to report it if they had it - On this forum? Someone would have been vocal or started another thread if it bothered them. Or it's so rare and random, that it's plain not worth prioritizing when some people have major difficulties even playing the game at all.

1) I don't see how? Surely they could at least try? I'm sure it's more important than adding silly features. It's personal opinion of course, I just think things like getting the game working correctly come before new features.
3) You are, sure you can deny it to us but I bet you know your intentions. You just want to argue from what I see, hence why you keep picking on people that are frustrated with issues.
4) See no 1

As for 5 (which I didn't miss btw but seen as you reiterated it).. "Fanatic- a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause." Political cause being you are in support of SMS. I'm not trying to offend you by saying this it's just an observation having read your posts.

Again this is coming off topic and I can see with you and your fanaticism it's just going to go round in circles so I'll leave you to it now :).

Gravit8
23-09-2015, 02:59
Looks like shinz is gonna close another thread.
I'm sure more atta boys and good jobs in your future.

Can't argue with him. It's a pre cursor to thread closed. Always gets personal. Fast.
Pretty good at escalating a thread to closed land.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 02:59
1) I don't see how? Surely they could at least try? I'm sure it's more important than adding silly features. It's personal opinion of course, I just think things like getting the game working correctly come before new features.

Someone literally did try, and failed to replicate the issue.



3) You are, sure you can deny it to us but I bet you know your intentions. You just want to argue from what I see, hence why you keep picking on people that are frustrated with issues.

Want to argue? Are we arguing? You're placing an awful lot of your time into the person you think I am. I see a post, and I reply to it. Is there a problem with not agreeing with every view you have and engaging you about it? I have tried not to be insulting towards you. I can't guarantee I will always not be condescending, though.



4) See no 1


Really there's better examples you could have chosen. Like if someone else posted the thread and you also had the issue and then it was "ignored" perhaps you would make a better case.



As for 5.. "Fanatic- a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause." Political cause being you are in support of SMS. I'm not trying to offend you by saying this it's just an observation having read your posts.

SMS is not a political affiliation and I am not biased towards or against them, unless liking a company and believing that they are being judged unfairly are considered a political biases.

I believe you're looking more for "Contesting Individual". Nothing I have said has been full of "Excessive or singleminded zeal.".

Mahjik
23-09-2015, 03:08
My bug isn't what this thread is about anyway, I was just making a point in that even when you do post a thread illustrating a bug it's just ignored.

We had this conversation before... You aren't going to get an "Atta-boy!" post from the devs on a bug post. They are reading them and creating JIRA's on their side for investigations.

AdM1
23-09-2015, 03:12
We had this conversation before... You aren't going to get an "Atta-boy!" post from the devs on a bug post. They are reading them and creating JIRA's on their side for investigations.

Okay fair enough just an 'Ok we'll investigate' would suffice. Without it just feels as I say ignored or left in the lurch a little.

If you're right then I'm happy to hear it.

Edit - I swear that Shiznah lad just hunts for arguments with anyone having complaints. Arguing just for the sake of arguing.. If you guys aren't paying this guy I hope you reward him with Project Cars fan of the year award maybe with a token for a free copy of PC2 when it comes out? haha. ;)

azidahaka
23-09-2015, 06:04
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39365-bmw-320-gr-5&p=1121559&viewfull=1#post1121559

I read about it, but this happened to me after 4 laps at brands, and many people in out championship experienced in less than 10 minutes. I mean it's great something popped out, but there must be more than one problem causing it, since i got a "revert gravity" bug after the landmine.

Still i'll cool down, restart playing after a few days and patiently wait for next patch.

N0body Of The Goat
23-09-2015, 08:17
Another thing that bugs me (pun intended) is that when you actually do find a clear obvious bug like so.. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38895-Cadwell-GP-Pit-bug

It just gets ignored. I can actually live with this bug, the fact no one at SMS seemed to care and the thread just bumps down to the bottomless pit is what is more annoying for me. I'd imagine it could cause trouble online in qualifying etc if people are lapping and then all of a sudden a car appears on the track..

It was not ignored, the bug was spotted internally and fixed before anyone here reported the issue. ;)

Unfortunately, the fix got implemented into a new build of pCARS right around the cut-off point for which build would become "patch 4.0" on all three platforms (pc, xbox1, ps4) and this fixed build was just the wrong side of the patch.

FR-Alan
23-09-2015, 08:54
To add an external point of view (cause some WMD members, even if good minded, could do self-censure because they earn something on the product), all wmd members should be attentives and not on defensive regarding customers wants.
Personally, the game is good to play with but not reach promises on some important parts on a community game. It does not answer to that a the date it was released :
- no functionnal replay
- no custom championship
- no system to own serious game based on players statistics
- no optimized indicators on telemetry
For a customer, we can feel that the patch are to finish the game, not to fix some bugs. When the head office or dev are proud to annouce a huge patch, i am not that excited cause i realise how far to early the game was released.

Franco Ferrari
23-09-2015, 09:03
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39365-bmw-320-gr-5&p=1121559&viewfull=1#post1121559

And: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39365-bmw-320-gr-5&p=1122415&viewfull=1#post1122415

Franco Ferrari
23-09-2015, 09:16
I think the best way to wrap this up would be a long list of complete games to back the point.

I'll go with GTA5. Buggy as hell online yes. But also crazy ambitious. A success story IMO. Numbers don't lie.

But the core single player campaign has nothing in the way of bugs. Zero bugs in SP for a huge triple a title.
I'm sure the list is actually quite long.




I think most people is unaware... or simply prefer to forget... that they're continuously naming allegedly bug-less games, but fail to mention they are the 4th or 5th installment in their series.
I think it's easier to get something right when it's the fifth time you make it.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 09:31
Edit - I swear that Shiznah lad just hunts for arguments with anyone having complaints. Arguing just for the sake of arguing.. If you guys aren't paying this guy I hope you reward him with Project Cars fan of the year award maybe with a token for a free copy of PC2 when it comes out? haha. ;)

*Shinzah. You can call me Shin if it's easier for you to spell ^^;

I'm certainly not paid, and rewarding me for being a human being seems somehow wrong. I hope they don't. I'm not here for the accolades of anyone.

If you're wondering why the moderators get on top of you and Gravit8 and others, this is why. If you have personal issues with me, my character, or any other aspect about myself that doesn't pertain to objective or intellectual discussion, then PM me. I don't judge or attack your character or person and I expect the same from everyone here. Dismissing points of contention based upon what or who you think the other person is, is far more alike to the Fanaticism you've unduly accused me of.

Cheesenium
23-09-2015, 09:56
To add an external point of view (cause some WMD members, even if good minded, could do self-censure because they earn something on the product), all wmd members should be attentives and not on defensive regarding customers wants.
Personally, the game is good to play with but not reach promises on some important parts on a community game. It does not answer to that a the date it was released :
- no functionnal replay
- no custom championship
- no system to own serious game based on players statistics
- no optimized indicators on telemetry
For a customer, we can feel that the patch are to finish the game, not to fix some bugs. When the head office or dev are proud to annouce a huge patch, i am not that excited cause i realise how far to early the game was released.

The amount of return of investment is so low to the point that, it isnt much more than putting my money in a savings account. It is not like SMS is paying a lot of money to me as I still have to fork out money to pay for DLCs. What is the purpose to deny that the game has issues? Because I am invested in the game therefore I need to defend it to death?


I do not care if you want to complain as it is your right to criticise. However, some people just keep whining on that few missing feature that everyone wants then made the game sound like it is a unplayable buggy mess or attacking other WMD members becuase they do not share your views. The game is largely fine now, with some missing features which is unfortunate. Thats the reality of game development, you cant have every single feature or content you want.

I know whats wrong with the game and a lot of them had been raised in WMD where not every feature you like can be put into a game. There are a finite things that the game can put in which SMS had decided to leave out some where there isnt much I can do about it. Considering they have a game to finish with limited funds, not trying to put in every single requested feature with no end to the development like what is happening to Star Citizen because CIG wants every single thing in that game. Even functional toilets that you can take a virtual dump. 3 years of development with 90 million dollars budget, they are still prototyping with extremely little to show. I rather have a solid game with some missing features than a game with everything but it has no end of development in sight.

SMS is listening, however, most of those features are not something that can be done in a short time as a lot of them requires core engine overhaul to do it where the risk are high in potentially making the game more buggy. Things like custom championship sounds simple on paper which is a feature that I really want to have, implementing it is a whole different story. Maybe it will be patched in months from now or might appear in pcars 2 years down the line, only time will tell.

FR-Alan
23-09-2015, 10:46
The amount of return of investment is so low to the point that, it isnt much more than putting my money in a savings account. It is not like SMS is paying a lot of money to me as I still have to fork out money to pay for DLCs. What is the purpose to deny that the game has issues? Because I am invested in the game therefore I need to defend it to death? I'm not english but i said "could" not "should" do self-censure. Maybe not for money but cause it s part of your baby, and it s human.

The game is largely fine now i said at the date it was released. Why i end my message with "we can feel that the patch are to finish the game, not to fix some bugs." So you reach my point.

with some missing features which is unfortunate You can hold a ferrari, without a wheel, you are nothing. Maybe the online racing and those little features are "the wheel" for the community. Just try to consider that point and you ll see more where the problem is.

some people just keep whining on that few missing feature that everyone wants then made the game sound like it is a unplayable buggy mess I said : Personally, the game is good to play with. Dont forget the TARGET : The community (online).
Best regards

Cheesenium
23-09-2015, 11:32
I'm not english but i said "could" not "should" do self-censure. Maybe not for money but cause it s part of your baby, and it s human.

Why all the suddenly pcars is my baby when I invested 40 Euros into it? And got some small change in return. I appreciate SMS offering returns but that does not mean that I am self censuring to see what I like to see.


i said at the date it was released. Why i end my message with "we can feel that the patch are to finish the game, not to fix some bugs." So you reach my point.

Was it really that bad? I know the AI was still awful and the AMD controversies, however, compared to the mess with Assassins Creed Unity or Battlefield 4, pcars is in far better state than those games on release. Those games were literally glitching and crashing all the time on release to the point EA even had 2 class action lawsuits.

It was never meant to be the perfect game out of the gates. Nor a software will ever be bug free. I had used software that cost upwards of $40,000, yet, I am seeing quite a lot of bugs and stability issues.


You can hold a ferrari, without a wheel, you are nothing. Maybe the online racing and those little features are "the wheel" for the community. Just try to consider that point and you ll see more where the problem is.

I really do not remember SMS ever offered that the community features are all present in the game. A lot of community features was present in the initial pitch that was done in pre-prealpha state where SMS havent even started development. Also, do not forget that this game would had been a free to play where a lot of these missing features are planned to be added years down the line as a free to play product. The whole plan was changed and possibly a lot of them were invalid, when the WMD voted against the free to play business model where pcars becomes a $60 game.

You are self claiming that your online "community" should be the center of attention. I remember Kunos did had some statistics, the amount of people who played multiplayer is a very small portion of the total buyers of their game. R3E said something similar too where a lot of players who play their games are largely offline AI races. Even though R3E had much more robust online features, vast majority of players are either leagues or offline players. At the end, both developers concentrate more of their attention on single players features as more people are likely to use them.


I said : Personally, the game is good to play with. Dont forget the TARGET : The community (online).
Best regards

They havent, the game isnt solely build for online community. Perhaps you should play iracing if all you want is online multiplayer as AC, R3E, GSCE and even rfactor 2 are still suffering from multiplayer feature issues.

There are still plenty of people who play solely with the AI which you conveniently forgotten about it while leagues like TCG are happily hosting multiplayer races with little issues. They had been asking for many features since pre-alpha which as mentioned in previous posts, SMS had been trying to accommodate as much as they can. At the end, there are priorities to manage in developing a game not putting every single desirable feature in the game.

I agree that multiplayer should be further improved but that does not mean other aspects of the game need to be ignored to make way for multiplayer development.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 11:40
Why all the suddenly pcars is my baby when I invested 40 Euros into it? And got some small change in return. I appreciate SMS offering returns but that does not mean that I am self censuring to see what I like to see.

I don't understand the need for censorship at all, self or otherwise. Rather I understand the need for it in cases where someone is being excessive in a specific community where it is required to maintain order, but I don't understand the reason why people bring up the investment aspect. Not all WMD members were about the "Investment". I really didn't expect any recompense at all. We all had the option to pull out of the development if we didn't like where it was heading.




Was it really that bad? I know the AI was still awful and the AMD controversies, however, compared to the mess with Assassins Creed Unity or Battlefield 4, pcars is in far better state than those games on release. Those games were literally glitching and crashing all the time on release to the point EA even had 2 class action lawsuits.

Not to forget that the other game here resulted in the company giving away vouchers for any of the games in their library, including fairly new "The Crew" and new release "Far Cry 4" as well as "Watch_Dogs" and others that were not insubstantial, in order to avoid legal action.

Cheese do you ever sleep? ;)

Aizcold
23-09-2015, 11:43
I think the best way to wrap this up would be a long list of complete games to back the point.

I'll go with GTA5. Buggy as hell online yes. But also crazy ambitious. A success story IMO. Numbers don't lie.

But the core single player campaign has nothing in the way of bugs. Zero bugs in SP for a huge triple a title.
I'm sure the list is actually quite long.


I think most people is unaware... or simply prefer to forget... that they're continuously naming allegedly bug-less games, but fail to mention they are the 4th or 5th installment in their series.
I think it's easier to get something right when it's the fifth time you make it.


I've put many hundreds of hours into GTA V and GTA Online and as impressive as that game is, it definitely was not flawless. GTA Online was a mess at first and the single player part certainly wasn't bug free either. You only have to look up some of the patch notes from every update Rockstar has delivered for the game and you'll see there were many bugs in the single player part of the game as well.

With how big games are nowadays and how many years it takes to develop them I don't think it's possible to have a completely bug free game at launch or even at any point after that. People will always come across issues, the important thing is that you have a developer that does something with feedback and fixes bugs as soon as they can and also supports the game by adding new features. Rockstar does this and so does SMS, you can't ask for more really.

flymar
23-09-2015, 11:44
To add an external point of view (cause some WMD members, even if good minded, could do self-censure because they earn something on the product), all wmd members should be attentives and not on defensive regarding customers wants.

The attitude of WMD members have little meaning now when WMD is closed. You and every other player out there have the same influence on the after release support/development.

Raven403
23-09-2015, 11:47
given how the last 9 months or so played out over at WMD (and the scale of the project and its features), I did not personally expect Project CARS to work particularly well at launch from a purely consumer perspective. In other words, I expected the increased testing coverage from the influx of early adopters to expose hitherto unknown issues. And issues by definition cannot be fixed before they are known and reproducible by the developers.

To elaborate, I thought we were going to need 3-6 months in "Open Beta" with testing under real-world conditions before the product could be considered 'polished' (where 'polished' is better and more refined/fleshed out than 'release quality'). As it stands, it appears that this might coincide with patch 5.0 or maybe even patch 6.0.


This, for me, is where alot of the animosity stems from for Consumers. It was not released, after being delayed multiple times, as an 'Open Beta' it was released as a complete version of the game. As was said elsewhere in this thread, there was nothing to suggest the game would be as disfunctional as it was on console at launch. All the Twitch streams, all the Youtube videos, all the Press there was nothing to indicate what it would be like, not only that, When it DID release in that state, there was no communication from SMS about the fact that it would be a few months to properly finish it. From what was said by both SMS and WMD members in the beginning it was like this was all in our heads, or "Well what did you expect? Alot of games release with bugs!"

For me, and I think alot of people, a little more Genuine and Honest approach would have been to issue a statement saying 'While the PC version is largely done, testing and other Issues have hampered the console version of the game, with your help and patience we will do everything we can to get the game to a high polish state in a few months time.' Maybe this is a wildly unrealistic thing to say or expect a game studio to do, maybe its just an INNOVATIVE idea and approach to a Community Based (and supposedly Focused) game. I own the game on both PC and Xbox, and It was glaringly obvious it was built, and tested way more efficiently on PC, as one might expect. But for people who just said "Oh hey Project Cars looks Awesome!" on Xbox, they were undoubtably disapointed, maybe some of them jonied the forum, most probably did not, and for the ones who did, I would like to think alot of them are still playing, thanks to the Community and help available here on the forums; But the people that didnt bother to join the forum, it was just a buggy flop of a game they most likely shelved, and who could blame them. Xbox isnt Steam, theres no explanation that your buying into an Open Beta version or Early Access version of a game, and thats what Pcars was when it released on console, and largely still is until 5.0 or 6.0 most likely. This is where I think you get the 'Entitled' attitude from people, they bought something expecting something else, and that usually leads to problems.

Whoever was at fault for the bad launch on Console, Bandai, SMS, whoever, it really doesnt matter, SMS could have gotten out ahead of all of it in my opinion by being more Honest and humble about things in the beginning, and not constantly getting into arguments with obvious trolls and acting like the game was fine one minute and unplayable the next. Even to this point it feels like there is a lack on consensus on the short term goals on things to finish as far as bugs and issues, things feel like there is no obvious system or managment to things. When patches release on 2 of 3 platforms, or when theres no communication back to a Bug Reporter that his post was indeed noted and put on a master list, people will assume your not listening, right or wrong its just human nature. For me its the Communication that needs to improve along with the game. SMS owes me nothing, I expect nothing, these are just thoughts and an opinion, please excuse me if it sounds all over the place, its early in the morning and im a caveman still.

Sorry to the OP if you feel this is not in line with your train of thought. Dont want to Hijack someones thread with something off base.

Cheesenium
23-09-2015, 12:12
I don't understand the need for censorship at all, self or otherwise. Rather I understand the need for it in cases where someone is being excessive in a specific community where it is required to maintain order, but I don't understand the reason why people bring up the investment aspect. Not all WMD members were about the "Investment". I really didn't expect any recompense at all. We all had the option to pull out of the development if we didn't like where it was heading.

I did not expect any returns too when I first signed up as all I wanted was to crowd fund SMS to make the game they wanted with a tiny bit of money. At least for me, they did deliver a pretty good product and I am proud with them.

Thats all, now, I am no different than an average user here. Except I have a fancy gold name as a token of appreciation.



Not to forget that the other game here resulted in the company giving away vouchers for any of the games in their library, including fairly new "The Crew" and new release "Far Cry 4" as well as "Watch_Dogs" and others that were not insubstantial, in order to avoid legal action.

Cheese do you ever sleep? ;)

Oh, the Ubisoft mess, I had completely forgotten about the free games they had to gave out to keep people from suing them. Not to mention, they released all season pass content for free too.

Probably they are soiling their pants when they saw EA having 2 class action lawsuits over BF4.

ermo
23-09-2015, 12:39
This, for me, is where alot of the animosity stems from for Consumers. It was not released, after being delayed multiple times, as an 'Open Beta' it was released as a complete version of the game. (...)

Would you mind editing your quote of my post by using a link back to my original post (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39638-Was-I-wrong-in-trusting-you-I-m-afraid-I-did&p=1127205&viewfull=1#post1127205)? It has some context which I'd much prefer that people were made aware of. :)

You can do it like this:



change

[ quote ]Correct; (...)[ /quote ]

to

[ quote=ermo;1127205 ]Correct; (...)[ /quote ]


(I had to insert extra spaces between the angle bracket characters and the forum keywords -- these spaces should not be inserted if you edit your post)


Thank you kindly. :)

P.S. I understand your sentiment. I think everyone will agree that the console launches of Project CARS have not been without issues, which is IMHO a bloody shame for both the customers, SMS and the Project CARS franchise. I think it is also worth noting that SMS are here and that they are listening and working hard to make the qualities of Project CARS shine through in all their glory.

Raven403
23-09-2015, 12:44
Would you mind editing your quote of my post by using a link back to my original post (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39638-Was-I-wrong-in-trusting-you-I-m-afraid-I-did&p=1127205&viewfull=1#post1127205)? It has some context which I'd much prefer that people were made aware of. :)

You can do it like this:



change

[ quote ]Correct; (...)[ /quote ]

to

[ quote=ermo;1127205 ]Correct; (...)[ /quote ]


(I had to insert extra spaces between the angle bracket characters and the forum keywords -- these spaces should not be inserted if you edit your post)


Thank you kindly. :)

P.S. I understand your sentiment. I think everyone will agree that the console launches of Project CARS have not been without issues, which is IMHO a bloody shame for both the customers, SMS and the Project CARS franchise. I think it is also worth noting that SMS are here and that they are listening and working hard to make the qualities of Project CARS shine through in all their glory.

Done, sorry ermo I had it that way but mustve cut off the [quote=ermo portion when I cut the paragraph out. Apologies.

I agree, Im happy they are still here, still working and improving the game and communicating with us, its refreshing to say the least, and is the reason I did jump on with Pcars2, I just hope the people who didnt stick around will find their way back and keep the community going strong. And I hope they add the C7R.......:cool:

FR-Alan
23-09-2015, 12:58
Guys,
You have the chance to have customers who take the time to explain things to improve. Trust me, it would not if the game had not potential. The game will be as quickly forgotten as i bought it.
However, you first priority is to say : "annoying cutsomers, this game is good enough, others game are as buggy as this one or more!!, so why complaining ?".
Why is it so hard for dev, for you to try to be the best on every parts of a game ? You have the chance to make your own place in the market instead of comparing on other franchises levels.
Regards

Sankyo
23-09-2015, 13:02
Guys,
You have the chance to have customers who take the time to explain things to improve. Trust me, it would not if the game had not potential. The game will be as quickly forgotten as i bought it.
However, you first priority is to say : "annoying cutsomers, this game is good enough, others game are as buggy as this one or more!!, so why complaining ?".
Why is it so hard for dev, for you to try to be the best on every parts of a game ? You have the chance to make your own place in the market instead of comparing on other franchises levels.
Regards
Not completely sure what you're trying to say, but if you're trying to describe SMS there then I don't recognize any of it.

TrevorAustin
23-09-2015, 13:50
I get it mate. I hope these things are fixed soon. I hope at least the FFB settings get changed up using the ones the community have come up, which would help a lot.

When it comes to the bugs however, the ones of these that have been around since launch or for a while since other various patches - It needs to be thought of from the perspective that this simply isn't something easy to fix. If it's taking a long time to fix a major bug, probably the bug is to blame. Should QA have found the bug before release and had the game delayed longer? Yes. Absolutely. In a perfect world this is how things work. However, nothing about Project Cars development or release was perfect and there was a lot of pre-release bad to take with all that shiney good stuff - Delays, major development changes. The process was rocky. This isn't an average AAA release from a known developer.

I'm sorry about all that bux you spent, really. I know someone else with the same issues and they aren't best pleased. But they have found other things to enjoy in the game as well (and most importantly, as is the point, do not engage the same discussion ad-infinitum.)

I have spent maybe 5* this just for pcars, moving from hori wheel and Xbox to high end pc and cockpit.

Currently very disappointed with game performance and progress, but what's the point in going on about it, after 4 patches the fixes and features are what sms want, I really don't feel anybody is listening, the requested features and bug lists are ignored its just all the users arguing no Dev input.

E30_Hntsvl
23-09-2015, 14:04
Is this type of - discussion not what the Sticky section is for. If not, why have the Sticky section on top?

218771

Bealdor
23-09-2015, 14:07
Blah Blah Blah. Fricken BLAH. Don't like the program, dump it and move on. Bunch of twats, complaining away...

Yeah, that's the kind of post we certainly do not need here.

E30_Hntsvl
23-09-2015, 14:11
Oh but everyone slamming SMS is what we want? You can't please everyone.

Bealdor
23-09-2015, 14:13
Oh but everyone slamming SMS is what we want? You can't please everyone.

That was not the point of my comment.

andycass
23-09-2015, 14:17
Blah Blah Blah. Fricken BLAH. Don't like the program, dump it and move on. Bunch of twats, complaining away...

218771

Take some of your own advice if you don't like what your reading move on.

E30_Hntsvl
23-09-2015, 14:20
I love everything that's been done with this sim. I use it to train for RL motorsports events. Everyone that try's it out on my rigs is blown away by the handling physics. So there. I take offense at anything derogatory about things I care about. Anyhow, the title of the thread just lends itself to some levity.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 14:24
<Snipping Vulgarity>
Really? Just...Really..?

https://media.giphy.com/media/AYKv7lXcZSJig/giphy.gif

Edit:

I love everything that's been done with this sim. I use it to train for RL motorsports events. Everyone that try's it out on my rigs is blown away by the handling physics. So there. I take offense at anything derogatory about things I care about. Anyhow, the title of the thread just lends itself to some levity.

Please. Why didn't you say this in your first post above. Why be so angry and mean?

Raven403
23-09-2015, 14:28
I love everything that's been done with this sim. I use it to train for RL motorsports events. Everyone that try's it out on my rigs is blown away by the handling physics. So there. I take offense at anything derogatory about things I care about. Anyhow, the title of the thread just lends itself to some levity.

So everyone with a different opinion to yours needs to go away to suit you? Not how it works.

Not everyone is privileged enough to enjoy the game on a spec'd out gaming rig either, so maybe other people's experiences aren't all as over the top as yours?

Sankyo
23-09-2015, 14:32
Oh but everyone slamming SMS is what we want? You can't please everyone.
As long as people voice their opinion decently and engage in a normal discussion, people are allowed to post their opinion, just like others are allowed to disagree.

aleph99
23-09-2015, 14:57
I have a bold suggestion to moderators: don't join in the fray. Let people have at it, curb improper behavior or what you will, but don't take sides - or rather, the obvious side. If the matter at hand is irrelevant, things will die down eventually. If you pay close attention, you will see that most long-winded aimless discussions really begin to get out of hand when a moderator steps in to defend SMS and other forum members take this or that side. People who are angry need someone to punch (as it is said in my country, it takes two to tango).

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 15:00
I have a bold suggestion to moderators: don't join in the fray. Let people have at it, curb improper behavior or what you will, but don't take sides - or rather, the obvious side. If the matter at hand is irrelevant, things will die down eventually. If you pay close attention, you will see that most long-winded aimless discussions really begin to get out of hand when a moderator steps in to defend SMS and other forum members take this or that side. People who are angry need someone to punch (as it is said in my country, it takes two to tango).

Why should moderators be stripped of their humanity because of their position? They aren't playing favourites - no matter if anyone is out of hand, they will be called on it and if one moderator did happen to do this, another moderator is sure to point it out.

If they want to "join in" and voice their own opinions, concerns or ask questions, they should be free to do so. They are only moderators. They aren't robotic overlords whose only purpose in life is to babysit us.

ermo
23-09-2015, 15:04
I love everything that's been done with this sim. I use it to train for RL motorsports events. Everyone that try's it out on my rigs is blown away by the handling physics. So there. I take offense at anything derogatory about things I care about. Anyhow, the title of the thread just lends itself to some levity.

Great to hear that you are enjoying Project CARS on the PC. Do you primarily play offline when you practice or ...?

aleph99
23-09-2015, 15:36
Why should moderators be stripped of their humanity because of their position? They aren't playing favourites - no matter if anyone is out of hand, they will be called on it and if one moderator did happen to do this, another moderator is sure to point it out.

If they want to "join in" and voice their own opinions, concerns or ask questions, they should be free to do so. They are only moderators. They aren't robotic overlords whose only purpose in life is to babysit us.

I see your point, Shinzah, and I assure you this is not what I meant. My view comes from the assumption that a moderator is someone who is there to, well, moderate, like in a TV debate. As long as the debaters don't engage in a fistfight, his/her role is to remain as neutral as possible; otherwise, tempers tend to flare and onlookers tend to see the discussion as biased. If you have the power to shut down your opponent (by disconnecting his microphone or, in the present case, by banning him and/or closing the thread) , then it can hardly be called a fair exchange. Perhaps this is how it is supposed to work in an online forum. I am not that much used to this - in fact, I only come here because so far I have been unable to enjoy Project Cars, and I only post when I have something to ask and/or suggest. The idea is to avoid unnecessary waste of energy by picking only fights worth fighting. Anyway, I stand corrected.

Having said that, I will now take my own advice and step down.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 15:42
We're expected to police our own discussions here. The moderators are here to enforce the community rules and make sure nothing gets out of hand. In this sense, they are more like police officers than debate moderators. I can see your point also, and respect it.

Going off the topic a bit:

Moderated debate only came about because of time (and sometimes other) constraints. Really the political debate "Entertainment" scene is a bit depressing to me, with 'winners' and 'losers' and who debated the best and what-not. It misses the point of DEBATE entirely and turns it into some kind of a game with win and lose states. A debate is merely a discussion between two differing ideologues upon the basis of which both sides attempt to recognize the point of view of the other. They can (and often do) go on for as long as each person has a question, counterpoint or viewpoint to offer (preferably without vitriol).

This is a tangent anyway, apologies.

Umer Ahmad
23-09-2015, 16:14
Part policeman and part volunteer charity worker (for both the players and SMS). thats how i see it.

Rayleigh
23-09-2015, 16:14
cba to read 18 pages so this may have been said already...

For me it's not the missing content or missing features which were adressed especially by the first respond of a WMD Member. No, it's rather the still existing bugs (especially in the multiplayer) that make the game unplayable for me and that makes me think I shouldn't invest any more money in products coming from this developer.
Physics, Graphics etc etc might be off the charts as they will, but as soon as I get blown of the track by an invisible car or a 5000 second penalty because a car dropped onto the top of my car at the start and moved me before the lights went out, it's practically not playable and not enjoyable at all. Those are just two out of some good hands full of bugs which each one by itself makes me having to quit a race.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 16:15
Part policeman and part volunteer charity worker (for both the players and SMS). thats how i see it.

And all hammer wielding badass?

chig88
23-09-2015, 16:29
Part policeman and part volunteer charity worker (for both the players and SMS). thats how i see it.

Probably an entertainer third ;).

(I think only fans of UK television will get this :).)

xsomnivmx
23-09-2015, 16:42
No, it's rather the still existing bugs (especially in the multiplayer) that make the game unplayable for me and that makes me think I shouldn't invest any more money in products coming from this developer.

That. So much that.

I can't expect a dev to add features when I buy a game (this may differ for you wmd guys. As far as I can tell, the pre release builds had stuff in them that is now gone) - but I can totally expect features to work properly. If not day one than at least in the first weeks and updates. Do I feel "betrayed" or something like this from sms? Nah. But will I ever buy a SMS or by extend Bandai Namco game ever again without waiting form month to make sure they work? Not gonna happen.
I haven't given up on Pcars, just shelfed it and play Forza until Pcars may be in a playable state. But boy, the franchise, dev and publisher are red flagged for me and many others.. And.. honestly, that makes me a bit sad. Even if i decide to never go back to Pcars, console racing needs games besides GT and Forza badly..

Mahjik
23-09-2015, 16:50
this may differ for you wmd guys. As far as I can tell, the pre release builds had stuff in them that is now gone

Unfinished "stuff", yes. Nothing that was complete and up to the level of pCARS standards was "removed" for the release. Even the Mugello track needed a fairly good sized overhaul since it was originally developed for a different project. Keep in mind that SMS have been developing (PC) titles for many years. They likely have a library of just about every car and/or track at their disposal to start from if they desire. However, most of the content for pCARS was done from scratch. Those that didn't start fresh, had their assets and textures overhauled to match the quality of the scratch made content.

rocafella1978
23-09-2015, 17:16
nevertheless....not much community feedback taken. I would like to see how DBR1 got voted and how the vote happened, how many hundreds voted. (or less than 50?) just to see how community/ crowd feedback is important to the studio...but we won't be seeing **** anyways. don't get me wrong, the game has great potential and still think it is great, as many think i am bashing it, or can't take criticism...best sim racing game at least for PS4 or consoles! PC...not sure, i think my time is split between AC, R3E and pCARS, but playing the games, identical cars on identical tracks handle different, so I think question of taste and prefs also, but so far FFB of all games better than pCARS. (for me pers.)

Mahjik
23-09-2015, 17:25
nevertheless....not much community feedback taken. I would like to see how DBR1 got voted and how the vote happened, how many hundreds voted. (or less than 50?) just to see how community/ crowd feedback is important to the studio...

That's not how it worked. Not everything was voted on.. If that were the case, we'd still be voting on things and no one would be playing pCARS today. ;)

Certain decision points were posted for community feedback. Licensing was never one of them as licencing was more around what was possible for SMS to secure rather than what was desirable. Just like on this forum, there were large threads of "What cars would you like to see" and What tracks would you like to see". However, in the end it comes down to what they could secure for the project (in regards to licensing).

There are a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings around the whole WMD process/experience. One day I might type of something around it.... However, I will say that while the numbers show that about 80k people contributed to pCARS1, less than 10% of that number actually did anything during the almost 4 years the project was in development. It was really only a handful from that group which were active and those are the ones which are mainly still active on this forum.

That's also why there were so many threads after the release saying "I was an early backer and now I have to pay for the release?" posts as they clearly didn't understand what the project was about.

ONT
23-09-2015, 17:42
There was an enormous effort from many members to get the tracks correct, photos, racing experience, tv clips, Google map reference etc etc etc.

I wonder the amount of man hours spent by all members, and a lot of that was implemented/corrected :)

Jezza819
23-09-2015, 19:52
Personally I think this is a case of expecting too much. Perhaps due to the high expectations created for some, perhaps because of people projecting their wishes too much onto the project.

I sympathize with those experiencing serious bugs in the game and complaining about it, but I do not agree with those judging SMS for what they should have delivered according to their personal opinion and wishes.

The game has over delivered for me and here's why. I'm one of the small number (I'm guessing it's a small number) of solo players. I don't race online, never have never will. I guess it could be my general anti-social character but I just don't want to go into that area. I've never started a career, don't know if I would have the patience to stay with it. I just recently started driving a little at night and I've never driven in the rain and don't know if I ever will. I'm just having one heck of a good time running my little 10 lap solo races scattered across all of the divisions.

When I first got the game I was very intimidated by all of the adjustments and terminology that this game has in it. I don't have the patience to try and tweak this, then take it out and come back in and tweak it just a little more, then go out only to find out that was one notch too much, etc. No way. I would have thrown the Xbox through the tv at that point. But thanks to these forums and a couple of others I was able to use other people's suggestions about FFB settings and things started coming into shape. But I can't thank Jack Spade enough. Once he put those numbers out is really when the game started to shine for me.

I know that I'm a very small percentage type of player and it might be said that I'm not using the game to it's fullest, but like Remco said, according to my personal wants and needs, it does just fine.

So I've more than got my money out of the game and I will certainly pre order Project Cars as soon as it's announced.

cluck
23-09-2015, 19:56
There was an enormous effort from many members to get the tracks correct, photos, racing experience, tv clips, Google map reference etc etc etc.

I wonder the amount of man hours spent by all members, and a lot of that was implemented/corrected :)including the infamous Karussell angle ;).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 19:58
including the infamous Karussell angle ;).
Goddamn that one... The artists were right all along but it took a member actually going out there and measuring the bloody angle before people believed that all those internet "facts" were wrong. :D

cluck
23-09-2015, 20:00
Goddamn that one... The artists were right all along but it took a member actually going out there and measuring the bloody angle before people believed that all those internet "facts" were wrong. :DBut Wikipedia said it was 30° and Wikipedia is never wrong ;). Yeah, that one ran and ran and ran and all credit to the guys that got the definitive proof.

Sankyo
23-09-2015, 20:37
Goddamn that one... The artists were right all along but it took a member actually going out there and measuring the bloody angle before people believed that all those internet "facts" were wrong. :D

Didn't we establish that the corner had an inclination of 30% and it also says that at the Nordschleife track, but that figure found its way to the Internet as 30 degrees with people defending that it really was the correct number?

Schnizz58
23-09-2015, 20:44
Didn't we establish that the corner had an inclination of 30% and it also says that at the Nordschleife track, but that figure found its way to the Internet as 30 degrees with people defending that it really was the correct number?
So does that make the actual angle 16.7°?

cluck
23-09-2015, 21:00
So does that make the actual angle 16.7°?As I recall, it was about that figure, yes :).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 21:10
So does that make the actual angle 16.7°?It varies a bit from start to finish, according to the measurements the guy did (he used a phone app to measure it) it maxed out at a bit under 20 deg. =)

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 21:12
That's not how it worked. Not everything was voted on.. If that were the case, we'd still be voting on things and no one would be playing pCARS today. ;)

Certain decision points were posted for community feedback. Licensing was never one of them as licencing was more around what was possible for SMS to secure rather than what was desirable. Just like on this forum, there were large threads of "What cars would you like to see" and What tracks would you like to see". However, in the end it comes down to what they could secure for the project (in regards to licensing).

There are a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings around the whole WMD process/experience. One day I might type of something around it.... However, I will say that while the numbers show that about 80k people contributed to pCARS1, less than 10% of that number actually did anything during the almost 4 years the project was in development. It was really only a handful from that group which were active and those are the ones which are mainly still active on this forum.

That's also why there were so many threads after the release saying "I was an early backer and now I have to pay for the release?" posts as they clearly didn't understand what the project was about.

Just to elaborate a little more - There were large threads, important threads and votes but that wasn't the point.

There was also the people (Jussi, Doc, Yourself, Miagi ect) giving technical/physics feedback in addition to an experienced group of race car drivers. There was direct communication between members and developer over things in the game in general. It wasn't just a picky-chose wish list of stuff.

Also must stress, a handful of 80k is still quite a bit of active people. In the least, several thousand at any given point.

It was a pretty neat experience.

cluck
23-09-2015, 21:19
It was a pretty neat experience.Understatement of the year alert :D

But yeah, it was :yes:.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 21:26
Understatement of the year alert :D

But yeah, it was :yes:.

ily bb <3

https://media.giphy.com/media/3kog9MkN8ot3O/giphy.gif

cluck
23-09-2015, 21:55
ily bb <3love you too honey-bun :D.

(just so that we're clear, I don't really love Shin. Sorry to break your heart again mate :D)

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 21:58
Yay!

Wait a minute....

WAS I WRONG IN TRUSTING YOU, CLUCK? I'M AFRAID I DID... T_T

https://media.giphy.com/media/zV9xajJ22Dhug/giphy.gif

SUBGTRACER
23-09-2015, 22:05
Jesus let it go !

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 22:08
Jesus let it go !

Sssshhh. This is between me and my chicken.

ex-chicken.

Who clearly cheated on me with Jussi.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 22:44
Sssshhh. This is between me and my chicken.

ex-chicken.

Who clearly cheated on me with Jussi.That was just one time on the French Riviera...

SUBGTRACER
23-09-2015, 22:46
Get a Room :)

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 22:51
That was just one time on the French Riviera...

You got my cock pregnant in that one time, didn't you!

Don't lie! I can see it all over his face!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 23:07
Darn it, you do one cock up and it comes back home to roost... Boy do I have egg on my face.

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 23:14
Dirty fowl!

Your mother was a duck and your father was a goose! I hope he gives birth to a fabergé egg!

http://i.imgur.com/4r6rbEJ.jpg

Mahjik
23-09-2015, 23:14
That's enough...

Shinzah
23-09-2015, 23:20
Aw.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Y4z9olnoVl5QI/giphy.gif

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-09-2015, 23:20
That's enough...Very sorry about this fowl play, the opportunity was just too tempting. Will get back to our scheduled programming. =)

cmch15
23-09-2015, 23:46
Really not getting the "SMS are ignoring us" comments. New features and bug fixes have been implemented, if not always as successfully as everyone (including SMS themselves) would like. If a bug still exists, particularly a major one, I imagine it is because it is difficult to track not because they can't be bothered. You don't produce a game/sim with the level of detail this has because you want to earn a quick buck.

LogRoad
24-09-2015, 02:09
Just read the whole damned thing, not sure why. Do I get a brownie?

Shinzah
24-09-2015, 02:10
Yes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Chocolatebrownie.JPG

gotdirt410sprintcar
24-09-2015, 02:34
Looks like WMD needs a time out or a major conference call to sort the problems out lol.

WE ALL STILL LOVE THE GAME THOUGH

Cheesenium
24-09-2015, 03:01
Really not getting the "SMS are ignoring us" comments. New features and bug fixes have been implemented, if not always as successfully as everyone (including SMS themselves) would like.

Considering the game is out of WMD, features and bug fixes has to be extensively tested before releasing it to the public. We used to get feature updates very often but it always comes with bugs which is unsuitable for a live game.


If a bug still exists, particularly a major one, I imagine it is because it is difficult to track not because they can't be bothered. You don't produce a game/sim with the level of detail this has because you want to earn a quick buck.

No one makes a racing game like this if they want to make a quick buck. It is extremely complicated to develop one that appeals to a smaller but growing market segment of racing fans.

SMS, along with Reiza, Kunos, Sector 3 and so on are probably some of the most passionate developers I ever seen. They made this kind of games because they love cars and wants to portray them as authentic as they could, not just for rolling with a lot of dough.

If a developer wants to make a quick buck, there are other ways of doing it.

LogRoad
24-09-2015, 03:57
Wow! That's some brownie! Looks like it's got everything in it but chocolate. Something for (almost) everyone. Not entirely subliminal, eh?

azidahaka
24-09-2015, 06:24
I guess certain people have been way too silent lately, so this may or may not mean anything depending on your own mood :D

And here we are all moody :D

NemethR
24-09-2015, 06:41
I only would like to know, that very-very basic features, that people ask for, are still not implemented.
I mean, if a WMD community did actually test the game before release, these features should be in already at release, but they are not. Core features like:

- Save during a race.
- Save multiple setups, and name them as you want,
- More useable Pit-box system
just to name a few.

I really think, that if the WMD members would have tested this game properly, and then would let their voice heard, these features would really be in the game already.
OR sms does not want to include these into the game, for any reason, that is then just a very bad way to work with the community.

Also, I keep reading a lot: Not for Pcars1, we do it for Pcars2... Well with this attitude, a lot less people will buy Pcars2, I will certenly not. Because, then 2 weeks after release we will read:
Well, maybe for Project Cars 3

azidahaka
24-09-2015, 07:00
I only would like to know, that very-very basic features, that people ask for, are still not implemented.
I mean, if a WMD community did actually test the game before release, these features should be in already at release, but they are not. Core features like:

- Save during a race.
- Save multiple setups, and name them as you want,
- More useable Pit-box system
just to name a few.

I really think, that if the WMD members would have tested this game properly, and then would let their voice heard, these features would really be in the game already.
OR sms does not want to include these into the game, for any reason, that is then just a very bad way to work with the community.

Also, I keep reading a lot: Not for Pcars1, we do it for Pcars2... Well with this attitude, a lot less people will buy Pcars2, I will certenly not. Because, then 2 weeks after release we will read:
Well, maybe for Project Cars 3

My thoughts, exactly... I really hope we do get all fixed and basic features working before we even see a trailer or advertising about the sequel. The idea that we might not get custom championships in this game but only in the next one will make me very wary to buy in again.

PCars was my first ever preorder, bout it at 70 euros and by few months we already a special sale everywhere... T_T

Bealdor
24-09-2015, 07:34
I only would like to know, that very-very basic features, that people ask for, are still not implemented.
I mean, if a WMD community did actually test the game before release, these features should be in already at release, but they are not. Core features like:

- Save during a race.
- Save multiple setups, and name them as you want,
- More useable Pit-box system
just to name a few.


As always, so called "basic" features can not always be done easily. Saving during a race for example is a very complex thing to do.
I agree that multiple setups should be in the game. Unfortunately this would've meant a complete rework of the profile/saving system late in development
which just wasn't possible to do in time.

Game features are ALWAYS limited by time and money restrictions. You have to set your priorities during development.
Some people will say that they'd prefer to have so called "basic features" instead of, for example, dynamic weather but then you'd have one feature less
that let's the game stand out of all the other racing games.

If you just add all the basic features and therefore have to leave out those ones that a truly innovative, what's left to separate your game from the rest?
Of course some people just want a GTR2 with pretty graphics but IMO that was not the intention of the devs and WMD.


I really think, that if the WMD members would have tested this game properly, and then would let their voice heard, these features would really be in the game already.
OR sms does not want to include these into the game, for any reason, that is then just a very bad way to work with the community.

Thing is, the devs simply can not add every feature that was requested during development. The reason for this is once again time and money restrictions.
With the limited budget they had, they had to choose their battles.


Also, I keep reading a lot: Not for Pcars1, we do it for Pcars2... Well with this attitude, a lot less people will buy Pcars2, I will certenly not. Because, then 2 weeks after release we will read:
Well, maybe for Project Cars 3

Financial reality is that you have to draw a line somewhere. And this line most of the times is major code reworks.
At one point it is just not feasable to add a feature into an existing game especially when you're risking to break big parts of existing code.
That's the sad reality of software programming.

cluck
24-09-2015, 07:50
I only would like to know, that very-very basic features, that people ask for, are still not implemented.
I mean, if a WMD community did actually test the game before release, these features should be in already at release, but they are not. Core features like:

- Save during a race.
- Save multiple setups, and name them as you want,
- More useable Pit-box system
just to name a few.

I really think, that if the WMD members would have tested this game properly, and then would let their voice heard, these features would really be in the game already.
OR sms does not want to include these into the game, for any reason, that is then just a very bad way to work with the community.

Also, I keep reading a lot: Not for Pcars1, we do it for Pcars2... Well with this attitude, a lot less people will buy Pcars2, I will certenly not. Because, then 2 weeks after release we will read:
Well, maybe for Project Cars 3You know, even after 8 new versions, I'm still waiting for Microsoft to include a 'Browse' button for setting a default file save location in Excel as there is in Word. Well, maybe for Office 2019.

All of the points you name (and more) were raised during development by both the WMD members and the devs but you have to realise that not every single thing - no matter how important it might seem to you (the collective "you", not you personally :)) - can be included in a first release on a limited budget. SMS are the underdogs and they have, given the resources available, released an outstanding product across 3 platforms simultaneously. Would it have been a better product for focussing just on PC? Probably, but they'd also now be most likely bankrupt. Would it have been a better product for focussing on a single console? Probably, but they'd have had no WMD model. Would it have been a better product for delaying another 18 months to include everything in their original vision? Probably, but where would the money have come from to do that? Is the game 100% perfect for 100% of people? Of course not. Is it a damn good core experience for the vast majority of people? Too right it is and that's what they are building on still.

Sequels are inevitable and also a chance for a developer to build on their first product. pCARS 3 will no doubt be a more rounded product than pCARS 2. And pCARS 4 likewise and so on. If we all expect perfection at the first time of asking, we will always be disappointed.

Now then, I know there are some on here that are going to say "fanboy" or "WMD shill" or some such. Fine, if that's how you want to read my post then that is entirely within your right to do so. But I sit here now and say to you all that I have posted this as objectively as possible. It is no secret that I love the game, with the WMD project and Project CARS becoming an intrinsic part of my daily life for 4 years now but I am also far from blind to what I read on the forum and what I see myself from time to time playing the game. So please, reader, take my post for what it is, one man's opinion.


EDIT : I haven't read Bealdor's post, but I guess he ninja'd me and some of my stuff is going to sound like a repeat! That's what you get for making coffee half way through typing a post :o.

chig88
24-09-2015, 08:03
You know, even after 8 new versions, I'm still waiting for Microsoft to include a 'Browse' button for setting a default file save location in Excel as there is in Word. Well, maybe for Office 2019.

The joys of Microsoft. Drives me up the bloody wall :mad:.

cluck
24-09-2015, 08:13
The joys of Microsoft. Drives me up the bloody wall :mad:.Indeed but it's also a very good example of how something I have asked for, for 18 years, has still failed to materialise. It's only a single button after all, it's a simple bit of code, how difficult can that be? Hmmm, that last sentence sounds oddly familiar ;). I suppose I should try this approach instead on Microsoft's forums :


F**k you Microshaft, I've asked you a million f**king times for that one sh*tty little button and you can't code it. What are you, a bunch of f**king amateurs. That's it, I'm off to use LibreOffice, at least those guys know how to code

That also sounds strangely familiar* :D.


* though not from the OP's post - just to make it clear, I am poking fun at the general tone of some posts across the forum, not at posts in this thread and certainly not at the OP's post :)

fresquito
24-09-2015, 08:22
There's a middle ground for everything. People talk about WMD or SMS like they did nothing or like they did everything in their hands. It's not one case or the other, but a mix of both.

It's understandable that for a project of this magnitude, with all the constraints and problems, that some cool features are missing and that some things haven't gone as desired. What it's not understandable, at all,, is that people that were in the development can excuse everything with the same old "there was not time, there were no resources". Custom Championships? Okay, I understand that's a sweet extra feature, but it wasn't in the initial plans and was hard to properly implement and get everything else done in time. But different setups? Let me get this straight: It wasn't implemented because SMS didn't want to implement it, not because there was no time. The very moment setups were introduced, and they were introduced very, very early in the cycle, people started asking for different setups. And they kept being ignored for the whole development of the game. It's not like someone came after some time and said: Hey, guys, what about we include this feature six months away from release? No, we were asking for it three years before the game was released. The same goes for the whole GUI. There were three iterations and none of them addressed any of the actual complaints or made use of any of the feedback that we were giving. The guy/s in charge simply had their own vison and ignored any external input.

So, please, refrain from using the time and resources excuse for everything.

I would like that we could calmly talk about many of the things that didn't go well with the game, with WMD, with SMS or with how SMS made use of WMD. That would be good for everybody. Why I can't stand is seeing people acusing SMS of being lazy or not doing anything right or whatever exaggeration they want to claim. As I can't stand seeing people justifying everything and making excuses for everything like everything's perfect, as it has always been.

And this reminds me of an anecdote of a day that I reported what I thought was a wrong sun position at Nürburgring. The sun had set at 20:00h, date in the game: August. I reported it and got yelled by a lot of people. A Super Moderator even told me: Looks like a perfect summer day to me. Hahaha. Luckily enough SMS knew better and Bruno contacted me, and after some feedback back and forth and some testing we realised it was TT being fixed but the UI allowing to change the date to no effect. Had those that find everything perfect been in charge, we would be racing with March skies in August.

cmch15
24-09-2015, 08:24
I only would like to know, that very-very basic features, that people ask for, are still not implemented.


But are they very very basic? They're easy to say .

I don't think these are ruled out necessarily but they have probably learned their lesson from being too open about things and then get jumped on. Hence the silence, or they just have better things to do.... like adding new features or fixing bugs.

I have only seen the "not for Pcars 1" comment related to certain suggestions, not for features that were supposed to be in this one.

For the benefit of those who think they are being ignored, see below. Some of these were probably already in the pipeline but most I have read on this forum and were suggestions or requests by members.

New & Enhanced Feature Summary (4.0)

• Online – added support for 'Force Default Setups' in Multiplayer restrictions screen.
• Online – players driving the wrong way will now have their collision disabled and their vehicles will display as ghost cars.
• Online – lobby search settings are now saved between sessions.
• Career – mandatory pitstop opening lap will now scale when the player scales the length of the race. For example, if the race was set to 5 laps, the pits would open for the mandatory stop on lap 2. If the player now scales the race length to 15 laps, the pits will open on lap 6 for the mandatory pitstop.
• HUD – when adjusting real-time settings, for example Brake Balance, the player will now see a HUD message to indicate what the setting has been changed to. The HUD will display “N/A” in the real-time settings HUD, messaging when a specific setting is not available due to it being disabled in MP session or not present on the vehicle.
• GUI – added a game version number display to the main menu.
• Assists – Enhanced Brake Assistance system so that people who are unable to use brake controllers at all can still play the game with this assist enabled.
• Assists – the Best Line assist now provides an option to only show the braking areas
• Tracks - Movable trackside objects and broken-off car parts will now be removed from the track after impacts.

New & Enhanced Feature Summary (3.0)

* New – Friends Leaderboards – players can now toggle between viewing ‘ALL’ and ‘FRIENDS ONLY’ on the leaderboards screen.
* New – Multiplayer Spectate Mode – players can now choose to ‘Retire to Pit Box’ during a race, and then spectate the ongoing race.
* Enhanced MP vehicle grouping – online races now use real-world vehicle classes. This results in far better vehicle performance matching for online races.
* Enhanced Setup and Pit Strategy system – players are now provided with information regarding current and upcoming weather, remaining session duration, current track temperatures, and more.
* Enhanced HUD and Telemetry tyre info system – players can now see in real time which tyre compounds they are currently using, what each tyre’s pressure is, and how much each tyre is worn.
* Enhanced Cut Track detection system – the system used to detect cut tracks is now far more accurate and 'fair'.
* DLC Career Contract support – the game now supports the addition of career contracts for new DLC vehicles so that players can use applicable cars in their core career series.
* Enhanced Replay system – players can now access Photo Mode from within a replay, and can switch between cars during a replay.
* New – Force Feedback – implemented the ability via menu sliders for the user to manually tweak the menu spring strength, stationary / low speed spring strength, and overall steering gain.
* New – the Force Feedback Calibration screen now features a multiple force feedback profile selection system whereby the user can select a base FFB style that suits personal preference, and then tweak it further as desired.
* Enhanced Weather system – all vehicles are updated with new window rain effects, featuring dynamic rivulets, much more realistic looking water drops, and wiper blade trail effects.

cluck
24-09-2015, 08:32
There's a middle ground for everything. People talk about WMD or SMS like they did nothing or like they did everything in their hands. It's not one case or the other, but a mix of both.

It's understandable that for a project of this magnitude, with all the constraints and problems, that some cool features are missing and that some things haven't gone as desired. What it's not understandable, at all,, is that people that were in the development can excuse everything with the same old "there was not time, there were no resources". Custom Championships? Okay, I understand that's a sweet extra feature, but it wasn't in the initial plans and was hard to properly implement and get everything else done in time. But different setups? Let me get this straight: It wasn't implemented because SMS didn't want to implement it, not because there was no time. The very moment setups were introduced, and they were introduced very, very early in the cycle, people started asking for different setups. And they kept being ignored for the whole development of the game. It's not like someone came after some time and said: Hey, guys, what about we include this feature six months away from release? No, we were asking for it three years before the game was released. The same goes for the whole GUI. There were three iterations and none of them addressed any of the actual complaints or made use of any of the feedback that we were giving. The guy/s in charge simply had their own vison and ignored any external input.

So, please, refrain from using the time and resources excuse for everything.

I would like that we could calmly talk about many of the things that didn't go well with the game, with WMD, with SMS or with how SMS made use of WMD. That would be good for everybody. Why I can't stand is seeing people acusing SMS of being lazy or not doing anything right or whatever exaggeration they want to claim. As I can't stand seeing people justifying everything and making excuses for everything like everything's perfect, as it has always been.

And this reminds me of an anecdote of a day that I reported what I thought was a wrong sun position at Nürburgring. The sun had set at 20:00h, date in the game: August. I reported it and got yelled by a lot of people. A Super Moderator even told me: Looks like a perfect summer day to me. Hahaha. Luckily enough SMS knew better and Bruno contacted me, and after some feedback back and forth and some testing we realised it was TT being fixed but the UI allowing to change the date to no effect. Had those that find everything perfect been in charge, we would be racing with March skies in August.If everybody on the forum posted with this level of calm and rationality, it would be a far more pleasant place to visit :yes:.

Flihp
24-09-2015, 08:43
You know, even after 8 new versions, I'm still waiting for Microsoft to include a 'Browse' button for setting a default file save location in Excel as there is in Word. Well, maybe for Office 2019.

.

at least you can save multiple spreadsheets, named whatever you wish and can be opened/renamed/backed up/shared any time you want to.

imagine having to recreate your spreadsheets and formula every time you had new data to enter. oh yeah i forgot the recommended fix, get the pen and paper out or take a screenshot . :)

Phil

Sankyo
24-09-2015, 09:03
There's a middle ground for everything. People talk about WMD or SMS like they did nothing or like they did everything in their hands. It's not one case or the other, but a mix of both.

It's understandable that for a project of this magnitude, with all the constraints and problems, that some cool features are missing and that some things haven't gone as desired. What it's not understandable, at all,, is that people that were in the development can excuse everything with the same old "there was not time, there were no resources". Custom Championships? Okay, I understand that's a sweet extra feature, but it wasn't in the initial plans and was hard to properly implement and get everything else done in time. But different setups? Let me get this straight: It wasn't implemented because SMS didn't want to implement it, not because there was no time. The very moment setups were introduced, and they were introduced very, very early in the cycle, people started asking for different setups. And they kept being ignored for the whole development of the game. It's not like someone came after some time and said: Hey, guys, what about we include this feature six months away from release? No, we were asking for it three years before the game was released. The same goes for the whole GUI. There were three iterations and none of them addressed any of the actual complaints or made use of any of the feedback that we were giving. The guy/s in charge simply had their own vison and ignored any external input.

So, please, refrain from using the time and resources excuse for everything.


Indeed, and this actually touches on the fact that WMD is about community assistance, not community ruling, which seems to be part of many complaints of "why wasn't xxx changed/implemented?". And that again goes back to my earlier response about perhaps expecting too much. Why wouldn't SMS do what they want themselves despite (some) people in the community not agreeing? It's their game, still.

At most you could say that SMS did not communicate about why it wasn't implemented, e.g. because of console saving functionality limitations. I seem to recall a fairly recent dev statement about this, but not sure. And yes, they could have made a cock-up or two even, though I'm not saying that any of your examples were that. It's just a possibility.

What bothers me in all this, is the jumping to conclusions about trust having been violated or SMS not giving a bit about the community's input just because things haven't been implemented the way people were wishing. The amount of time that people have been asking for such things is irrelevant. Could communication have been better in certain cases? I think it could. Should SMS be mistrusted for not having catered for every single wish out there? I don't think so, and the grief that people seem to be having because of it is very misplaced IMO.

Cheesenium
24-09-2015, 09:05
As always, so called "basic" features can not always be done easily. Saving during a race for example is a very complex thing to do.
I agree that multiple setups should be in the game. Unfortunately this would've meant a complete rework of the profile/saving system late in development
which just wasn't possible to do in time.


I think I have something to addon to this.

I backed Shadowrun Returns where this RPG had a peculiar issue that this game do not have mid game save. Almost every game in the genre has midgame save that works everywhere since the 90s. Unlike racing games, I am only aware of very few racing games that has mid game save so it made Returns even weirder when it is probably the only modern RPG that does not have mid game save and you are forced to save in fixed checkpoints that are about half an hour apart.

People were complaining, more so than pcars because it was such a basic feature for RPG. At the end, the developer said that mid game save might be a simple feature on paper but it is actually quite hard to implement because when you are saving a game state, you have to save a lot of data and ensure that it is saved correctly, ie: your character do not suddenly get a mohawk or enemy positions are all jumbled up when you load. There are a lot of things in game development that I had taken for granted, like midgame save, hit boxes in FPS, rendering engine or even unit pathing and boundaries in a RTS, are actually incredibly complex to do.

Eventually, Shadowrun managed to obtain mid game save, not in Returns. Not in Dragonfall which the sequel to Returns but it only appeared in the Director's Cut version of Dragonfall due to the complexity to implement a functional midgame save.

More importantly, Shadowrun is a fairly simple 2.5D RPG and that took them almost 2 years to implement a simple "midgame" save feature. The game is great though, outside the saving annoyance. For a game like pcars, I wont be surprised to see it to be multiple times more difficult to do.

Lastly, how many games out there has midgame save? Like you can save in the middle of a race then continue the race in another session. Not those you save the game post race and continue later.

Tomcul
24-09-2015, 09:09
So op has posted that he was wrong to trust sms.. But then goes on to say he's invested also in pcars2..

As a humble console player that's been playing since the sega megadrive from what I've seen pcars is by far the best racing game I've played.
It has so many little features that make it really good, I personally experience very few bugs in over 200hours playing but most of my time is spent offline..
So just putting it out there love the game and keep up the good work sms.. It's not perfect but it's damn good all the same..

andycass
24-09-2015, 09:18
What i will say is people experiences are different depending on which system you have the game on and what part of the game you play.

After the latest PS4 patch i can no longer play the game. 1 in every 3 online games gives me a wrong finishing position which is fun having spent 30 mins practicing 30mins qualifying and 20 laps racing. i love going into the pits and changing tyres only to come back out on the originals and then loosing my FFB on my T300. BASIC BASIC things that should not be happening after 6 months of release.
Lets be honest there'd be allot more complaining on these forums but most people have been banned.

The game may work for some but there's allot of people already given up on the game Not one single person out of the 11 people on my friends list still plays the game most gave up within the first month and the rest gradually faded away these were potential future customers. PC2 is going to have an hard sell and next time they'll be some competition.

What i do understand from WMD members is they went through the build process they invested time in watching the game grow but they are sometimes too over protective of the game your perspective is totally different to mine. The only thing i invested in the game was going out to buy it and then expected the game to work and to a degree it does and when it does work its brilliant but meet some of the countless bugs in the game and its far from brilliant.

Has much as some people want to defend the game i can tell you i could have written this for any number of users on my friends list who had the game.

fresquito
24-09-2015, 09:43
Indeed, and this actually touches on the fact that WMD is about community assistance, not community ruling, which seems to be part of many complaints of "why wasn't xxx changed/implemented?". And that again goes back to my earlier response about perhaps expecting too much. Why wouldn't SMS do what they want themselves despite (some) people in the community not agreeing? It's their game, still.

At most you could say that SMS did not communicate about why it wasn't implemented, e.g. because of console saving functionality limitations. I seem to recall a fairly recent dev statement about this, but not sure. And yes, they could have made a cock-up or two even, though I'm not saying that any of your examples were that. It's just a possibility.

What bothers me in all this, is the jumping to conclusions about trust having been violated or SMS not giving a bit about the community's input just because things haven't been implemented the way people were wishing. The amount of time that people have been asking for such things is irrelevant. Could communication have been better in certain cases? I think it could. Should SMS be mistrusted for not having catered for every single wish out there? I don't think so, and the grief that people seem to be having because of it is very misplaced IMO.
I agree. This is SMS' game. It took me some time at WMD to realise that. I may be dense or I might have been led to believe it was different by SMS when they asked for my support. Probably a middle ground, again. It doesn't matter anymore. It's been a while since I understood how things are. I wouldn't have joined PC2 otherwise. I simply don't have certain expectations anymore.

But I don't think this has anything to do with what I've written in this thread, be it the OP, be it this last post. I agree with the miscommunication problem. That's so obvious that I don't think anybody at SMS or at WMD or here disagrees there. But, if you read carefully , you'll see that I'm not complaining about multiple setups, but about people excusing their absensence. There should be no excuse for that. And I don't mean SMS should be shot dead because they didn't include this feature, but that it was their decision just like the GUI was. So, why excuse these aspects by talking about time, resources and all of that? They were simply bad decisions. Even SMS aknowledges it was a bad decision because that's a feature that will most certainly be included in PC2. So, why excuse what it doesn't need to be excused?

My point with the last post is that, as much as people make a lot of unnecesary noise with what are often empty claims, there's also a lot of noise created by those that excuse everything. It's hard to discuss properly, even report bugs, when everything said is tooled for the battle.

About your last question: I thought I made myself clear enough. I "distrust" SMS because they have showed me that they don't help, they don't communicate, they don't articulate any way to work with them for their communities. That's my experience after a year and a half. I don't blame SMS for anything. My thread is not about blaming, but about communicating how I feel about working on a community for their game Maybe I had high expectations and that's why I started work on a community to their game. And don't get me wrong, it's been an amazing experience and we have enjoyed and will continue enjoying the game as much as it lets itself to be enjoyed. But all the hard work and all the good times, have had no relation whatsoever with anything SMS had done (except the game, obviously). My dustrust thus, comes from their idea of what a community is or what a community asssisted game should be. And that's just my opinion and I really hope it serves SMS and other communities in some way.

NemethR
24-09-2015, 09:58
Game features are ALWAYS limited by time and money restrictions. You have to set your priorities during development.
Some people will say that they'd prefer to have so called "basic features" instead of, for example, dynamic weather but then you'd have one feature less
that let's the game stand out of all the other racing games.




All of the points you name (and more) were raised during development by both the WMD members and the devs but you have to realise that not every single thing - no matter how important it might seem to you (the collective "you", not you personally :)) - can be included in a first release on a limited budget.


Sorry, but this seriously opens the knife in my pocket...

We are talking about BASIC features, that anyone, who starts to think for 15minutes realises, they are needed, its not like, I want snow in the game, and sandstorm, anSpacecrafts flying overhead, or Boats docking and leaving at Monaco...

These are features that should have been planned in at the very-very beginning.

This is what makes me mad about WMD, we say:
THIS **** basic feature...
And then you guys reply, as if we would request something over the top impossible.

Cheesenium
24-09-2015, 10:17
Sorry, but this seriously opens the knife in my pocket...

Really, do you really need to behave like this?


We are talking about BASIC features, that anyone, who starts to think for 15minutes realises, they are needed, its not like, I want snow in the game, and sandstorm, anSpacecrafts flying overhead, or Boats docking and leaving at Monaco...

These are features that should have been planned in at the very-very beginning.

This is what makes me mad about WMD, we say:
THIS **** basic feature...
And then you guys reply, as if we would request something over the top impossible.

Name me one game that has every single BASIC feature that you had been demanding this game should have.

Sankyo
24-09-2015, 10:20
... if you read carefully , you'll see that I'm not complaining about multiple setups, but about people excusing their absensence. There should be no excuse for that. And I don't mean SMS should be shot dead because they didn't include this feature, but that it was their decision just like the GUI was. So, why excuse these aspects by talking about time, resources and all of that? They were simply bad decisions. Even SMS aknowledges it was a bad decision because that's a feature that will most certainly be included in PC2. So, why excuse what it doesn't need to be excused?

I'm leaving the rest of the discussion because I've already said my thing about it, but would like to comment on this particular part.

I think you're stretching things here. The fact that they are having this on the list for pC2 does not by any means mean that SMS acknowledges that it was a bad decision to not implement it in pC1. Obviously they wanted to have multiple set-up saving in pCARS1 from the start, but consoles have difficult restrictions in this department so they couldn't find a proper way to implement it. That is something very different than having made a bad decision because there was an easy and much better decision/implementation possible, as you seem to be implying.

When you think about it, multiple set-up saving is a basic thing to have in a race sim and there will have been no-one within SMS who said at the start of the project: "Let's do it differently, let's break the mold of allowing multiple car set-ups and only allow one set-up per car, per track. That would be a great feature." Even though they're called Slightly Mad Studios, these guys and girls aren't stupid and they know what are must-haves in a race sim. This has simply been one of those things were they were limited in more than one way, and had to make a difficult decision instead of implementing what they wanted to.

fresquito
24-09-2015, 10:29
I probably worded that bad. Excuse me. The bad decision is not to overcome the hurdles to include this basic feature, like they are doing in PC2. They considered it and dropped it after judging pros and cons. And their final judgement was wrong. I'm no ignorant to these decisions not being taken randomly. I hope I msde myself more clear this time.

Flihp
24-09-2015, 10:32
So Remco, the saving multiple setup question has been raised many times in the past 4 months... Can someone higher up answer the question once and for all... Will it be possible in pcars1, an ETA to go with that would be nice. Instead we get post from wmd members saying " soon" or "it's coming" but nothing official. I for one would really like to know.
Also why not just implement it for pc only if console is the issue, at least they would get some people of their backs about it.

Bealdor
24-09-2015, 10:51
Sorry, but this seriously opens the knife in my pocket...

We are talking about BASIC features, that anyone, who starts to think for 15minutes realises, they are needed, its not like, I want snow in the game, and sandstorm, anSpacecrafts flying overhead, or Boats docking and leaving at Monaco...

These are features that should have been planned in at the very-very beginning.

It's not like multiple saves were never planned for PCARS. But development reality is that priorities change and you simply have to make compromises.
Some of these compromises are obviously less popular than others. But this doesn't alleviate the need for them.



This is what makes me mad about WMD, we say:
THIS **** basic feature...
And then you guys reply, as if we would request something over the top impossible.

If those features are so basic, why doesn't Forza have working pit stops and where's the midrace save feature in AC? And where are all the other features that PCARS has in return?

One has to accept the fact that no game will ever have all the features that one wants.

Raven403
24-09-2015, 10:57
Obviously they wanted to have multiple set-up saving in pCARS1 from the start, but consoles have difficult restrictions in this department so they couldn't find a proper way to implement it. That is something very different than having made a bad decision because there was an easy and much better decision/implementation possible, as you seem to be implying.

When you think about it, multiple set-up saving is a basic thing to have in a race sim and there will have been no-one within SMS who said at the start of the project: "Let's do it differently, let's break the mold of allowing multiple car set-ups and only allow one set-up per car, per track. That would be a great feature." Even though they're called Slightly Mad Studios, these guys and girls aren't stupid and they know what are must-haves in a race sim. This has simply been one of those things were they were limited in more than one way, and had to make a difficult decision instead of implementing what they wanted to.

My issue with your statement Remco, is that we were told multiple times, the game wasnt ported, it was built from scratch on each platform, so why couldnt the unrestricted PC version of the game get Multiple named setups, and the consoles wouldnt? Not to mention why would console save limitations stop you from including something other games have included basically every time.

As I highlighted above, Saving multiple setups is a pretty basic feature of any racing game, and it was a bit baffling to see it left out to be honest. There are things that when this game released, I literally sat in disbelief that it made it the way it was into the game. One of these, and for me Personally my biggest bone of contention is the Pit Stop UI and Pit Stradegy setups, for me, playing on console with limited flexibility to map buttons and whatnot, the whole Pit Stop UI really frustrates me, and I couldnt fathom how anyone thought that was a good way to do it. Then I brought it up in Pcars2 forum, and the responses I got answered that question. People all wanted different things, and different ways to do things, from full control pits, to on-the-fly pit strats to an even more complicated UI in the pits (god help us). This is where I realized SMS listened maybe TOO much to what people wanted, I wasnt there so I cant say, maybe the community screamed for a streamlined simple UI in the pits and it was Ignored, I have no idea, the point is like multiple setups, it seems things didnt get the attention or thought they deserved because there was no clear focus on what was really important. The whole game felt and still feels, a bit chaotic. It never felt like there was a clear "OK lets get this hammered down, and bug free, then we will get to that" it feels like everyone was working on something different at the same time, and therefore alot of things fell through cracks, or just didnt have time to be fixed, and now its too late. (for things that are too complicated to include)

Im not saying SMS are, were or ever will Ignore the community to a point, I dont think their ignoring us, but as I said before the Communication could be better. And I actually have to say it has been of late, Mike Laskey has been posting updates in the Xbox thread about game chat progress, Alexandru gave updates on different issues, its been a nicer atmosphere to see in the forum for me (in the Xbox threads anyway, which I always thought were largely forgotten). But (and dont murder me for this) in the beginning the only Dev feedback we had was the Head of Studio bickering and arguing with people, alot of the good quality Dev communications and feedback was lost in the fray, like Doug and others doing great work getting the Tire wear stuff worked in and making different adjustments, Never saw him arguing with trolls, which is how it should be.

Lastly, I honestly cant remember a racing game Ive played that had a Mid Race save feature, its not something I need or really care about so Im indifferent. To me, if you dont have time to race a 100 lap race, dont do a 100 lap race, but I understand where people would want it, just to chase the 24 hr achievement I guess IDK, but I could see how its super complicated, and if it meant having something else be ironed out or maybe something else (Custom Championships) implemented then I could live without it gladly.

xsomnivmx
24-09-2015, 11:05
If those features are so basic, why doesn't Forza have working pit stops

Well... it kinda has... It's only basic refueling, new tires and fixing body damage, nothing to adjust or change.. but at least it works all the time.
That's a bit true for almost every feature they share. Pcars offers more settings and goes deeper than Forza - but so many things don't work or have a chance to screw you, that in the end it doesn't really matter.. You try so hard, and go so far... and lose it all. :barbershop_quartet_
For me it's not about features that are not there - even if i can't understand how you can make a game with dynamic environment and give players no chance so save settings for different conditions - but simply the stuff das IS there and doesn't work. Drives me crazy and drives me away.
So, at the moment i rather play a game with less features and depth but with almost zero problems than a game where one evening i'm madly in love and the next day i' ragequiting...

Regarding the multi setup saving.. in Forza, where i basically have max 3 conditions (Dry, Wet, Dark) i can save as many setups as i want.. so, this goes back to the " at least it works" theme that's a bit of a problem for Pcars. That the main competition on xbox wins simply because "it works". Not because it's better.

Bealdor
24-09-2015, 11:08
Well... it kinda has... It's only basic refueling, new tires and fixing body damage, nothing to adjust or change.. but at least it works all the time.

Oops, my bad. Must have mixed up games somehow. :eek:

Raven403
24-09-2015, 11:13
It's not like multiple saves were never planned for PCARS. But development reality is that priorities change and you simply have to make compromises.
Some of these compromises are obviously less popular than others. But this doesn't alleviate the need for them.



If those features are so basic, why doesn't Forza have working pit stops and where's the midrace save feature in AC? And where are all the other features that PCARS has in return?

One has to accept the fact that no game will ever have all the features that one wants.


Oh god cmon Bealdor dont bring Forza into this, dont get me started on Turn 10 but the answer to your question is this:

Probably because they couldnt included it in a good looking way for 450 cars is my guess, and Turn 10 is Form over Function and if it aint pretty it doesnt make it into the game, but the Core of it is this, Forza DOES have working pit stops, they just arent in depth, theyre painfully simple. Its something I wish Forza would implement and one of the things I think sets Pcars apart. But as Ive already said, the Pit Stop UI is so complicated and frustrating it sorta takes away alot of the majesty for me. I got screwed in a league race that I couldve finished on the podium in because the Pit Stop didnt work, so yeah, Pcars has a much more detailed system but it doesnt always work, Forzas is Caveman simple but it works every time.

Disclaimer: Hate FM6, dotn have it, wont buy it, the franchise isnt what I want, Im not a Forza Fanboy.


edit Ninja'd damn :(

Sankyo
24-09-2015, 11:14
My issue with your statement Remco, is that we were told multiple times, the game wasnt ported, it was built from scratch on each platform, so why couldnt the unrestricted PC version of the game get Multiple named setups, and the consoles wouldnt? Not to mention why would console save limitations stop you from including something other games have included basically every time.

On a core level the different platforms may have been built from scratch, but on application level they are all the same for obvious maintenance and testing purposes. The profile save file structure is one of the many things that is universal for all platforms, because it is a high-level function and tied to other things like the GUI which is also universal across the platforms. I guess that using a different file save system for PC is perfectly possible, but from a coding/maintenance/patching/testing point of view highly undesirable.

Racert246
24-09-2015, 11:17
If those features are so basic, why doesn't Forza have working pit stops and where's the midrace save feature in AC? And where are all the other features that PCARS has in return?


Are you seriously comparing a mid race save feature with a basic sim racers need for saving multiple setups in a Sim?
Just admit that this is a big mistake and multiple setups saving should have been in this game, come on be honest.

We were not expecting all features, just the normal ones like multiple setup saving....

Bealdor
24-09-2015, 11:21
Are you seriously comparing a mid race save feature with a basic sim racers need for saving multiple setups in a Sim?
Just admit that this is a big mistake and multiple setups saving should have been in this game, come on be honest.

We were not expecting all features, just the normal ones like multiple setup saving....

No I don't. But apparently this is also a basic feature for some. That's the post what I'm answering to: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39638-Was-I-wrong-in-trusting-you-I-m-afraid-I-did&p=1128777&viewfull=1#post1128777

Cheesenium
24-09-2015, 11:21
Well... it kinda has... It's only basic refueling, new tires and fixing body damage, nothing to adjust or change.. but at least it works all the time.
That's a bit true for almost every feature they share. Pcars offers more settings and goes deeper than Forza - but so many things don't work or have a chance to screw you, that in the end it doesn't really matter.. You try so hard, and go so far... and lose it all.
For me it's not about features that are not there - even if i can't understand how you can make a game with dynamic environment and give players no chance so save settings for different conditions - but simply the stuff das IS there and doesn't work. Drives me crazy and drives me away.
So, at the moment i rather play a game with less features and depth but with almost zero problems than a game where one evening i'm madly in love and the next day i' ragequiting...

Regarding the multi setup saving.. in Forza, where i basically have max 3 conditions (Dry, Wet, Dark) i can save as many setups as i want.. so, this goes back to the " at least it works" theme that's a bit of a problem for Pcars. That the main competition on xbox wins simply because "it works". Not because it's better.

Regarding the multi setup saving.. in Forza, where i basically have max 3 conditions (Dry, Wet, Dark) i can save as many setups as i want.. so, this goes back to the " at least it works" theme that's a bit of a problem for Pcars. That the main competition on xbox wins simply because "it works". Not because it's better.

Based on what you said, I think it is largely enough for the game. The core basics are there where most can enjoy. At least for me, I always think Forza to be more of a mass market appeal while pcars is more of a niche game. Still, that reason doesnt excuse that the bugs on the console version.

The thing that I could say about Forza is, it is a game made by a far larger studio backed by one of the largest software companies in the world with a well established QA. SMS, on the other hand, they do not have as much man power as them or has access to QA testers until now Bandai help QA a bit. In the mean time, they are building a more complex game than most games out there independently.

Seriously, I think with AC on consoles, you console folks will rip it to shreds then if you think pcars is bad enough.

Raven403
24-09-2015, 11:28
Seriously, I think with AC on consoles, you console folks will rip it to shreds then if you think pcars is bad enough.

Yeah they have a loooooong way to go to compete on console.

BUt they have the C7R! Plus 1 for me

Bealdor
24-09-2015, 11:32
Yeah they have a loooooong way to go to compete on console.

BUt they have the C7R! Plus 1 for me

A C7R should be a +1 for everyone! :cool:

Cheesenium
24-09-2015, 11:33
Yeah they have a loooooong way to go to compete on console.

BUt they have the C7R! Plus 1 for me

Even with 100 cars and 20 tracks, I think you guys will rip it to pieces. There are so many things missing in the game so far despite the driving is pretty damn good. I am not just concern about features but the UI at the moment, it is completely console/VR unfriendly.

Not just C7R, the PC version has the full ALMS13 grid of GTEs via mods along with a lot of interesting mods.

I bought the game mainly because it has a 458 GT2 and also a P4/5. C7R, Huracan GT3 and SCG003 sealed the deal for me.

So, when are we getting our C7R in pcars? :D