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mlb4321
28-09-2015, 05:11
When I turn the FFB up to 100 from the default 75, the wheel disconnects after about 5 min of driving. I put all FFB settings back to default and it didn't do this once. Put it back to 100 and ... disconnect every time. Help. Thanks.

Vennt
28-09-2015, 09:14
That sounds quite similar to the "FFB Fade" due to overheating motors.

Is the fan still working?

chig88
28-09-2015, 09:22
Yep, definitely sounds like it's overheating. The wheel shuts itself off if temperatures get too high to avoid damage to the internals.

Try leaving the FFB at 100 but turning the Tire Force down to avoid stressing the wheel too much. I currently have mine at 65 - gives good FFB & I'm not having any overheating so far.

wahwah
28-09-2015, 10:23
There is really no reason to ever turn the FFB control up to 100 on console versions of the game. The suggestions to set FFB at 100 came from guys playing on PC, but for them, it is a secondary, redundant in-game master prior to the final master in their wheel's driver Control Panel in software. Their Control Panel masters default to different setting per wheel, eg, 60 for the T500 and 75 for the T300. We need to look at our single FFB master as being like that master control panel setting, because in both cases, it is the final output to the wheel. It needs to be set relative to the wheel being used. This was confirmed recently in a conversation I had with Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS. I asked about the nature of the FFB control on consoles, and this was his reply.


Hi, there is only the one control on PS4 which covers the entire range from off to full, you should set it appropriately for your device.

Tim

It would be safe to assume that the default setting for the T300 is considered the appropriate output level to the wheel, as is also the case with the Control Panel master for guys on PC.

The other issue with boosting the FFB master is that it sits after the telemetry in the signal chain, which means there is no way of monitoring the effect it is having on the final output to the wheel. If your telemetry is showing signals close to clipping, boosting the FFB substantially past its default setting of 75 (for a T300) will almost certainly be sending the wheel into clipping at the output. Since all of the dynamic range is calculated prior to the FFB master, there is no advantage in setting it higher than its default. If you want stronger or lighter overall FFB output, then the Steering Gain control is the final output stage of the calculated forces prior to telemetry.

The problem with lowering Tire Force is that it is at the front of the chain, and should therefore be looked at as an input control between the tire physics model and the in-car spindle scales and SoP. Lowering the TF is simply starving the rest of the system of information, and will therefore effect how the compression/expansion controls (Relative Gain, Scoop, Soft Clipping) function. The in-car masters and individual scales are probably the best place to attenuate specific forces, giving you the chance to use Jack Spade's settings, or your own mix of forces, on a per car, per track basis. It should be noted that all of Jack's setups are calculated on his own global Tire Force setting of 100.

Ultimately, we are free to set our FFB however we like, but cases like the OP's, along with a long list of cooked T300s, are a good reason why we should understand the differences in how the game works on consoles, and why some of the advice given to players on PC does not apply.

falm
28-09-2015, 11:06
There is really no reason to ever turn the FFB control up to 100 on console versions of the game. The suggestions to set FFB at 100 came from guys playing on PC, but for them, it is a secondary, redundant in-game master prior to the final master in their wheel's driver Control Panel in software. Their Control Panel masters default to different setting per wheel, eg, 60 for the T500 and 75 for the T300. We need to look at our single FFB master as being like that master control panel setting, because in both cases, it is the final output to the wheel. It needs to be set relative to the wheel being used. This was confirmed recently in a conversation I had with Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS. I asked about the nature of the FFB control on consoles, and this was his reply.

So 75 should be better value for the T300? Never had this problem, but then a few days ago it started to happen also with my T300.
My first thought was that it was related to the PS4 Beta 3 Firmware which I also started running a few more days ago.

Will adjust to 75 next weekend and give the feedback if this solved the problem for me.

miraculix99
28-09-2015, 12:32
There is really no reason to ever turn the FFB control up to 100 on console versions of the game. The suggestions to set FFB at 100 came from guys playing on PC, but for them, it is a secondary, redundant in-game master prior to the final master in their wheel's driver Control Panel in software. Their Control Panel masters default to different setting per wheel, eg, 60 for the T500 and 75 for the T300. We need to look at our single FFB master as being like that master control panel setting, because in both cases, it is the final output to the wheel. It needs to be set relative to the wheel being used. This was confirmed recently in a conversation I had with Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS. I asked about the nature of the FFB control on consoles, and this was his reply.



It would be safe to assume that the default setting for the T300 is considered the appropriate output level to the wheel, as is also the case with the Control Panel master for guys on PC.

The other issue with boosting the FFB master is that it sits after the telemetry in the signal chain, which means there is no way of monitoring the effect it is having on the final output to the wheel. If your telemetry is showing signals close to clipping, boosting the FFB substantially past its default setting of 75 (for a T300) will almost certainly be sending the wheel into clipping at the output. Since all of the dynamic range is calculated prior to the FFB master, there is no advantage in setting it higher than its default. If you want stronger or lighter overall FFB output, then the Steering Gain control is the final output stage of the calculated forces prior to telemetry.

The problem with lowering Tire Force is that it is at the front of the chain, and should therefore be looked at as an input control between the tire physics model and the in-car spindle scales and SoP. Lowering the TF is simply starving the rest of the system of information, and will therefore effect how the compression/expansion controls (Relative Gain, Scoop, Soft Clipping) function. The in-car masters and individual scales are probably the best place to attenuate specific forces, giving you the chance to use Jack Spade's settings, or your own mix of forces, on a per car, per track basis. It should be noted that all of Jack's setups are calculated on his own global Tire Force setting of 100.

Ultimately, we are free to set our FFB however we like, but cases like the OP's, along with a long list of cooked T300s, are a good reason why we should understand the differences in how the game works on consoles, and why some of the advice given to players on PC does not apply.

Thanks a lot for clarifying! Very helpful, also for a better understanding of the entire chain of signals. Especially since many PCars "gurus" stressed (wrongly) the issue to set the FFB to 100 - implicating the (wrong) idea that this keeps the signal-dynamic to its highest possible range. Instead, as you said, the FFB value (default 75 for the T300 wheel) defines the absolute output signal strength (that can indeed fry the wheel.)

Though there is still a question (among many more ;-) I always read SoP (Seat of Pants), but I (PS4) can't find any input parameter related to "SoP". (Or does "SoP" refers to the Fx,Fy,Fz,Fm forces?). Where a are the SoP settings?

BTW: Why don't the developers publish a proper explanation/guide, what the terms and parameters stand for?! It's such a waste of time for so many forum contributors to figure out all that stuff based on try and error, happy guessing, and finding the very rare 5% relevant knowledge among 95% wrong assumptions cluttering the forums.

chig88
28-09-2015, 12:59
Though there is still a question (among many more ;-) I always read SoP (Seat of Pants), but I (PS4) can't find any input parameter related to "SoP". (Or does "SoP" refers to the Fx,Fy,Fz,Fm forces?). Where a are the SoP settings?

If I recall correctly you need to set the SoP for each car. In the car setup menu press R1 (I think) to get to the FFB settings & the SoP settings are at the bottom of the 2nd page.

wahwah
28-09-2015, 13:30
Thanks a lot for clarifying! Very helpful, also for a better understanding of the entire chain of signals. Especially since many PCars "gurus" stressed (wrongly) the issue to set the FFB to 100 - implicating the (wrong) idea that this keeps the signal-dynamic to its highest possible range. Instead, as you said, the FFB value (default 75 for the T300 wheel) defines the absolute output signal strength (that can indeed fry the wheel.)

Though there is still a question (among many more ;-) I always read SoP (Seat of Pants), but I (PS4) can't find any input parameter related to "SoP". (Or does "SoP" refers to the Fx,Fy,Fz,Fm forces?). Where a are the SoP settings?

BTW: Why don't the developers publish a proper explanation/guide, what the terms and parameters stand for?! It's such a waste of time for so many forum contributors to figure out all that stuff based on try and error, happy guessing, and finding the very rare 5% relevant knowledge among 95% wrong assumptions cluttering the forums.

Don't get me wrong, the gurus know what they're talking about, it's just that the system works slightly differently on PC than it does on console, because of the extra attenuation stage that the PC version has because of their wheel's Control Panel. On PC, the FFB master is basically redundant, so it is suggested on PC to leave it set 'wide open' at 100. The signal then goes through their final output, in the software driver for their wheel on the PC. For those of us on consoles, we basically don't have the redundant control, we just have the final output master.

You will find the SoP settings on the next page to the Master Scale and spindle arm forces (Fx, Fy, etc) in the in-car settings. Press R2 to get to the next page. It's heading is Body & SoP. You can get to these pages either in My Garage or the pit box. When using SoP, it's a good idea to match the master scale to the SoP scale, and then tweak the individual components as you please.

For reference, the signal chain on console looks like this...

Car Physics/Tire Model > Tire Force > In-Car Settings (Master Scale, spindle forces, SoP) > Global compression/expansion (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip) > Steering Gain > FFB Monitor (Telemetry) > FFB Master > Wheel

chig88
28-09-2015, 14:56
Press R2 to get to the next page.

Knew it was in that region somewhere :D.

wahwah
28-09-2015, 15:18
Knew it was in that region somewhere :D.

Yep, the throttle and brake pedals will get us there, too!

i-am-the-stig
28-09-2015, 16:36
Is the firmware on the wheel upto date.. Last week they released v25 and you can set the fan to be running all the time

chig88
28-09-2015, 16:56
Is the firmware on the wheel upto date.. Last week they released v25 and you can set the fan to be running all the time

Really? I didn't know that.

What's it like? Any improvements/problems?

miraculix99
28-09-2015, 16:58
Don't get me wrong, the gurus know what they're talking about, it's just that the system works slightly differently on PC than it does on console, because of the extra attenuation stage that the PC version has because of their wheel's Control Panel. On PC, the FFB master is basically redundant, so it is suggested on PC to leave it set 'wide open' at 100. The signal then goes through their final output, in the software driver for their wheel on the PC. For those of us on consoles, we basically don't have the redundant control, we just have the final output master.

You will find the SoP settings on the next page to the Master Scale and spindle arm forces (Fx, Fy, etc) in the in-car settings. Press R2 to get to the next page. It's heading is Body & SoP. You can get to these pages either in My Garage or the pit box. When using SoP, it's a good idea to match the master scale to the SoP scale, and then tweak the individual components as you please.

For reference, the signal chain on console looks like this...

Car Physics/Tire Model > Tire Force > In-Car Settings (Master Scale, spindle forces, SoP) > Global compression/expansion (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip) > Steering Gain > FFB Monitor (Telemetry) > FFB Master > Wheel

Perfect! Many thanks. I wish your profound knowledge about FFB will be found by many of the forum members.

i-am-the-stig
28-09-2015, 17:37
Really? I didn't know that.

What's it like? Any improvements/problems?

No problems.. To put the fan on constant press start/options then mode the led will flash twice.. To stop press start/options led flashers once

mlb4321
28-09-2015, 23:52
That sounds quite similar to the "FFB Fade" due to overheating motors.

Is the fan still working?

Still working? Unless the fan is quiet, I'm not sure it's ever came on. How would I know if it's working?

mlb4321
28-09-2015, 23:54
Is the firmware on the wheel upto date.. Last week they released v25 and you can set the fan to be running all the time

No idea. I would have no clue how to update the wheel.

wahwah
29-09-2015, 01:35
Still working? Unless the fan is quiet, I'm not sure it's ever came on. How would I know if it's working?

Drive 5 or 6 laps at your default settings, then stop and turn down the game volume. You should hear the small fan inside the wheel base whirring...it's pretty quiet, so listen closely. Maybe watch a replay with the sound still down, but focus on the sound of the fan. It should stop after a couple of minutes, and you'll hear the difference between the fan working, and not.

i-am-the-stig
29-09-2015, 06:47
No idea. I would have no clue how to update the wheel.
You need a laptop or a pc and download the drivers/firmware from the thrustmaster website http://ts.thrustmaster.com/eng/index.php?pg=view_files&gid=1&fid=2&pid=374&cid=15



The download link is at the bottom of the page.. When you connect your wheel to a pc/laptop make sure it's in ps3 mode first or the wheel will not be recognised

rams1de
30-09-2015, 07:39
There is really no reason to ever turn the FFB control up to 100 on console versions of the game.

Except as a safeguard against unwittingly applying too much FFB.

I agree with the vast majority of your post but think the comment about low tyre force starving the system of information to be a moot point, born as far as I can tell, from yet another audio analogy. I can see someone coming along at some point to tell us gold-plated USB connects fitted to high shielded cables improves FFB nuance ;)

Personally, I think starting with low TF and max FFB provides a much better way of identifying when changes cause clipping as you have the visual aid of the telemetry HUD as well as feel through the wheel.

wahwah
03-10-2015, 16:01
Except as a safeguard against unwittingly applying too much FFB.

I agree with the vast majority of your post but think the comment about low tyre force starving the system of information to be a moot point, born as far as I can tell, from yet another audio analogy. I can see someone coming along at some point to tell us gold-plated USB connects fitted to high shielded cables improves FFB nuance ;)

Personally, I think starting with low TF and max FFB provides a much better way of identifying when changes cause clipping as you have the visual aid of the telemetry HUD as well as feel through the wheel.

This would suggest that the default settings are in danger of unwittingly applying too much FFB. I would think that is more likely a possibility by boosting the FFB master past default, since the results cannot be seen in telemetry. Does the average user know how to detect clipping at the wheel by feel alone? That would seem unlikely. It would be safe to assume that the idea of FFB Monitoring via telemetry is to assist in avoiding clipping, however the purpose is defeated if we start boosting a control that comes post-telemetry in the chain.

Some audio analogies certainly work with the signal chain of pCARS FFB system, but they are not related to the dinky, domestic hi-fi market and its attendant snake oil. Instead, we could look at the pro audio recording signal path and see the analogies with the FFB system. TF is akin to preamp gain, the in-car master as the individual channel volume, the individual scales as eq and pan, Rel Gain, Scoop and Soft Clipping as Compression/Expansion/Limiting, Steering Gain as Mater Output, and FFB as the post metering volume of a set of powered monitors. Similarly, gain structure is equally important in the end result, since everything down the chain is affected by the setting of the input. Just as preamp gain will affect the input into a channel, or a compressor's threshold or auxiliary send, so also does the TF multiplier affect the input into the in-car master scale and individual scales and SoP, and also the Rel Gain and Soft Clipping settings, since they are input dependent. It should be noted that all of Jack Spade's in-car calculations are made with TF at 100. Therefore, if we really want to retain the balance of forces as Jack intended for each car, but we wish to attenuate or boost the overall forces, then Steering Gain, at the end of the chain of calculations, but prior to telemetry, would be the optimum way to achieve it. I fail to see how this point is either moot, nor related in any way to armchair audiophile cork-sniffery.

As Tim Mann pointed out, the FFB master on consoles is intended to be set at a level appropriate for the individual device. In this way, it is operating differently to the in-game master on PC. It is operating in a similar fashion to the Strength of All Forces control in the driver's Control Panel. You won't find too many recommendations to boost that control to 100. You will, however, find plenty of recommendations to leave it set to its default, appropriate for the device (wheel).