PDA

View Full Version : The Physics of Aston Martin expansion



Casey Ringley
28-09-2015, 21:58
Hands up all who forgot this pack was hitting the street today. (raises hand)

Four new cars this month, covering a wide range of history. Here are a few notes on what we found during the physics development.

Aston Martin DBR1: Working on these very old, very rare cars is always a fun experiment in research. A book by Anthony Pritchard on Aston Martin’s post-war cars proved incredibly useful in learning about the development and history of this Le Mans winner. We were able to find decent data for the engine and (terrible*) Dave Brown CG537 gearbox. The 2922cc straight-6 is good for over 250hp at 6000rpm, which isn’t half bad for 1959 and is really great for a car that weighs less than 900kg. Gear ratios are very close between 4th and 5th, I think to keep it near the top of the power band during the shift on Mulsanne alone. Suspension is trailing link front and de Dion rear. The trailing link front gives no recovery of camber loss in roll and also induces a fair amount of bump steer because the motion of linkages is in different directions. Very different front end to all our other cars; feels weird and definitely comes across as old fashioned when you drive. Could also be that a full fuel tank hangs 150kg of liquid way out behind the rear axle! It definitely changes balance by more than a little as the fuel burns off.

*If Stirling Moss is on record complaining about it constantly sticking in gear and being very difficult to downshift, you know it's bad. We’ve represented this in game by increasing in each gear the damage acquired from a bad shift. Take care of it if you are going for a long run or it might become increasingly difficult to get a working gear.

A new tire is available for use on this car and the Mercedes 300SL. There would have been a ton of tire development from 1952 to 1959, but letting them use the same rubber helps equalize the two (a bit) so matchups could be done at the right tracks with the right drivers. Should be fun stuff.


Motion ratio = 1.0 all around (torsion bars on the trailing links. Using wheel rate keeps it simple)
Damper transition speed = 70mm/s all around


Aston Martin DBR1-2 LMP1: 50 year after the DBR1, the folks at AMR decided to build a car to celebrate their win and the DBR1-2 LMP1 was the result. What started life as a fairly traditional LMP1 chassis took advantage of a rule which allowed use of a ‘production’ GT1 engine with a larger air restrictor to compensate for the weight disadvantage. And a very impressive engine they did use. It was based on a unit from the DBR9 GT1 car but with a restrictor 15% larger, which meant it was good for 670hp or more in race spec. By our usual calculations, this unit unrestricted would be good for over 960hp! All that power means a medium-high downforce aero package made sense to use even at Le Mans; something which hasn't really been practical since 2009 as restrictor and boost reductions cut power quite a lot. You can run downforce levels in the middle and still pull near 340kph in a draft while feeling very nice and stable through the Porsche Curves. The default setup is good for over 4000lbf of downforce at 200mph. Impressive stuff. Rest of the car is pretty standard LMP1, but man that engine...Overall performance is very similar to the Audi R18 TDI.



Motion ratio = 1.0 all around
Damper transition speed, bump/rebound (mm/s) = 30/60 front, 40/80 rear


Aston Martin Vantage GTE: A lot could come from the V12 GT3 version as they aren't hugely different under the skin apart from the drivetrain differences. The 4.5L V8 is quite evolved over the road model’s 4.7L and would be good for 620hp unrestricted. It is also mounted much lower and further back than the V12, giving a weight distribution sitting right around the ideal 50:50. ACO balance of performance has it breathing through two 29.1mm restrictors which cut it down to about 450hp. It has run anywhere from 2x28.3mm to 2x29.4mm in the last couple of years, so we entered that as the range of adjustment a player can fiddle with. End result is output from 435-460hp. Surprisingly low for a car of this class, but it finds speed in other ways by being much lighter, more fuel efficient, and having a very efficient aero package. Low drag setup is good for 290kph and just under 14 laps at Le Mans on a 95L fuel tank - all consistent with data from this year's race - and lower top speeds around 255 and 240 at Spa and Silverstone, respectively, as you put downforce on. Good car to drive. Feels much more composed than the GT3 version thanks to being 80kg lighter with the smaller engine mounted so much lower in the car. Makes a nice contrast in that it is down maybe 70hp but overall is faster around nearly every track.


Motion ratio = 0.71 front, 0.77 rear
Damper transition speed, bump/rebound (mm/s) = 30/60 front, 50/95 rear



Mercedes 300SL W194: Engine is strong from 4000-6000rpm, peaking at 180hp near 5200rpm. Quite impressive for 1952. Rest of the car, maybe not so much. Very low drag bodywork, but that comes with a fair amount of aero lift. Like the DBR1, there is a big fuel tank slung way out back, so handling balance changes dramatically over the course of a fuel stint. Weight distribution changes by something like 10% rear to front as that burns off. Huge change!

Suspension design is very old fashioned. Zero caster, camber or steer axis inclination at the front means steering often feels quite vague, and the swing axle rear is responsible for some spooky handling. It combines the fun of very high camber change with a very high rear roll center. Not exactly a recipe for the most stable rear end. The designer made lots of notes on this and the very late prototype W194/11 was switched over to a low pivot swing axle which, while still suffering the extreme camber change, at least brings the roll center down and improves rear stability. Same idea works amazingly well in our model, and it's tempting to use that setup, even if not strictly accurate. Shame it never raced as they shifted focus to F1; the notes out there on W194/11 make it sound quite impressive and it probably would have been a strong contender for a second Le Mans win. 90kg lighter than before, 35hp more from direct fuel injection, less aero drag and the improved rear suspension design. Hard to argue against the success they had in the W196 F1 car though.


Motion ratio = 0.59 front, 0.72 rear spring, 0.55 rear damper
Damper transition speed = 150mm/s all around

Schnizz58
28-09-2015, 22:05
I look forward to these threads every time a new car pack comes out. Even if I'm not particularly interested in the cars, it's fun to read about how they are modeled and everything.

Pink_650S
28-09-2015, 22:18
Nice write-up, very informative :)
Cant wait to try the glorious Mercedes-Benz!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
28-09-2015, 22:23
Thanks for the stories and the data, superlatively interesting yet again. =)

Now just have to wait until the Merc unlocks in-game and I can push out a new version of the setup calculator. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
28-09-2015, 22:24
I look forward to these threads every time a new car pack comes out. Even if I'm not particularly interested in the cars, it's fun to read about how they are modeled and everything.Indeed! This was always one of the aspects I enjoyed the most about the WMD development experience, and always always wished that they would have put more of stuff like this into the marketing for the game. =)

Schnizz58
28-09-2015, 22:32
Indeed! This was always one of the aspects I enjoyed the most about the WMD development experience, and always always wished that they would have put more of stuff like this into the marketing for the game. =)
If something like this was available for all the other cars in the game, I promise you I'd sit down and read the entire thing!

Cheesenium
28-09-2015, 22:35
Lovely write up as usual. Now I know why the old 1950 classics are so different in terms of driving experience compared to other cars in the game.

senn
28-09-2015, 23:42
Casey - when will the Mercedes be unlocking on PC? I believe Xbox1 guys were saying they already have it.....

LukeC
29-09-2015, 00:46
Sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere; but will this expansion pack feature the "Test track" or the Scottish track, or both?

Roger Prynne
29-09-2015, 00:48
"Test track"

LukeC
29-09-2015, 02:19
Yes!

nhitrac
29-09-2015, 07:44
Don't want to be 'that one' who turn this into a whinge thread but... Was this pack a bit rushed or something?

Aston Martin DBR1-2
- no HUD when steering wheel disabled (usually there's a static steering wheel if the HUD is on it).
- weird verticle texture and door gap when viewing back left/right

Aston Martin DBR1
- rear top air intakes are extremely low poly triangles when viewing left/right from cockpit view

Hope they get fixed. Other than that, love the cars.

Thanks

Robhd
29-09-2015, 08:16
For an old geezer like me the historics are just fabulous... Please keep them coming in future packs... Oh and ore of the great old circuits to run them on would be even better... Tamuchly folks!

ARNAGEist
29-09-2015, 08:31
Does the Lola Aston Martin DBR1-2 howl in the game like she does in real life? I'll happily sit and watch the replays if she does, I had the pleasure of listening to and watching her again at Le Mans this year.
Can't wait to try it tonight

yusupov
29-09-2015, 08:57
not sure how the sound compares, but its either a complete beast or has a much better baseline setup/is easier to drive than the other LMPs ive tried around le mans. literally the first time i put in a non-disappointing lap time there & i wasnt even particularly trying for it.

QPRLad
29-09-2015, 09:15
Aston Martin DBR1-2 LMP1:



Motion ratio = 1.0 all around
Damper transition speed, bump/rebound (mm/s) = 30/60 front, 40/80 rear


Aston Martin Vantage GTE:


Motion ratio = 0.71 front, 0.77 rear
Damper transition speed, bump/rebound (mm/s) = 30/60 front, 50/95 rear





Can someone please tell me what these mean? Do they help you tune the car? And how does this translate to the Tuning page?

Martin03
29-09-2015, 09:19
can you use the Aston Martin DBR1-2 LMP1 in Endurance series on career mode? It stand on the store that you can use it in career but it does not stand in what series...

Kelderek
29-09-2015, 11:07
Does the Lola Aston Martin DBR1-2 howl in the game like she does in real life?

It does!
Definately the best sounding LMP1 in the game.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
29-09-2015, 11:38
Can someone please tell me what these mean? Do they help you tune the car? And how does this translate to the Tuning page?That information is there for me to include the car in my suspension calculator (new version coming as soon as the Merc lands on PC) and people wanting to do their own suspension calculation to figure out what the dampers and springs REALLY do on the car.

The setup screen shows the direct spring rate and damping rates of the springs and dampers themselves, but from the point of view of the car that has to go through the suspension linkages, which can affect this a whole lot, due to that motion ratio mentioned there. What it means is the ratio between how much the wheel moves up vs. how much the springs/dampers compress. So with the Aston GTE if the front wheel goes up by 10 mm, the spring compresses 0.71*10= 7.1 mm. The formula for how this all plays out is Spring rate * motion ratio^2 = wheel rate (which just means spring rate measured at the wheel). So a 500 N/mm spring on a 0.71 motion ratio suspension has a wheel rate of 500*0.71^2 = 500*0.5041 = 252.05 N/mm. You can probably see how the setup screen saying 500 N/mm but the spring actually acting like a 252 N/mm spring can mean that the setup numbers can be misleading if you don't know what's going on. Most "interesting" are cars with a significantly different front and rear motion ratio, so the front and rear spring stiffnesses aren't even directly comparable. This applies in the same way for the dampers.

The damper transition speed is the point where the slow damping setting switches to the fast damping setting. This can have big consequences for the damper settings. Some cars that have very high transition speeds can suffer from the slow damper settings extending into the "fast damping range" where they also affect the bump handling quite a lot. And conversely a very low transition speed can mean that the slow setting doesn't even fully cover the "slow damping range", forcing you to adjust the car body control using the fast damper settings. If you don't know where the transition points are you can't really know what the damper numbers actually translate to, and have to play everything out by feel.

This is why I made my setup calculator, to handle these sorts of calculations more comfortably and give the players more tools to apply knowledge about the suspension to working on it, to put some lights into the black box. =)

And for what it's worth, this sort of stuff has been par for the course for ages now in simulations, the setups showing figures that require a lot of extra knowledge to apply in a mathematical, goal oriented sense, instead of just trying out all sorts of stuff and seeing what sticks. Thankfully the SMS developers have been good enough to share some of that extra knowledge and made it possible for me to build the suspension calculator in an attempt to clarify some things for people.

Cheesenium
29-09-2015, 15:47
Hi Casey, I am wondering what are the reasons that the 300SL and DBR1 are classed into separate classes?

Considering you mentioned this in your original post:



A new tire is available for use on this car and the Mercedes 300SL. There would have been a ton of tire development from 1952 to 1959, but letting them use the same rubber helps equalize the two (a bit) so matchups could be done at the right tracks with the right drivers. Should be fun stuff.


I was expecting to see both cars competing in the game under the class yet both cars are classed on different Historic GTs. Now, the game has 2 more single car classes.

Would it be possible to balance both cars so they could compete in the same class? Possibly when we get Lotus 40 where we could put into the same class with 300SL and DBR1.

yusupov
29-09-2015, 15:50
i dont really like the idea of artificial balancing. i do agree itd be nice for them to race together but id prefer any balancing me done thru available (& optional) tires than boosting or negating a cars actual power.

RomKnight
29-09-2015, 15:55
Problem is you can't lock the BoP. PD got THAT right with PPs (meaning performance points IIRC)

Shinzah
29-09-2015, 15:56
PPs had many, horrible, horrible, flaws.

Edit: IIRC in GT5 I had the Polyphony Cappuccino, which had half or a bit more than half PP's of the big super powerful race cars. And when tuned correctly, wiped the floor with them so hard I was blacklisted from prettymuch everywhere online when I took it to same PP matchups because I was 'cheating' or a 'hacker' :|

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
29-09-2015, 16:09
Hi Casey, I am wondering what are the reasons that the 300SL and DBR1 are classed into separate classes?

Considering you mentioned this in your original post:



I was expecting to see both cars competing in the game under the class yet both cars are classed on different Historic GTs. Now, the game has 2 more single car classes.

Would it be possible to balance both cars so they could compete in the same class? Possibly when we get Lotus 40 where we could put into the same class with 300SL and DBR1.It would be great to get a restrictor slider for the Aston indeed, but it shouldn't be forced down to the 300SL's level.

The Lotus 40 weighs less than either of these cars and is about 200 bhp (or 80%) more powerful than the Aston, balancing it to run with the Aston and Merc would probably be akin to balancing a GT3 car to run with the Clio RS Cup car.

Cheesenium
29-09-2015, 16:25
It would be great to get a restrictor slider for the Aston indeed, but it shouldn't be forced down to the 300SL's level.

The Lotus 40 weighs less than either of these cars and is about 200 bhp (or 80%) more powerful than the Aston, balancing it to run with the Aston and Merc would probably be akin to balancing a GT3 car to run with the Clio RS Cup car.

Well, looks like we will just keep getting one car classes with classic cars. Lotus 40 will be put into historic GT1 which will be another single class.

To be honest, it is quite disappointing to see how small is the car list for the older race cars compared to the modern.

Shinzah
29-09-2015, 16:26
Well, looks like we will just keep getting one car classes with classic cars. Lotus 40 will be put into historic GT1 which will be another single class.

To be honest, it is quite disappointing to see how small is the car list for the older race cars compared to the modern.

You could kill a pink fluffy unicorn dancing on a rainbow with that level of negativity, Cheese.

Here, this will cheer you up:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRC4Vk6kisY

Mahjik
29-09-2015, 16:40
I honestly don't see why is matters. Not all cars need to be in "race groups". i.e. not everyone is "racing" them.. There are cars that are for people who just want to "drive" and for those that want to "time trial".

Shinzah
29-09-2015, 16:42
I honestly don't see why is matters. Not all cars need to be in "race groups". i.e. not everyone is "racing" them.. There are cars that are for people who just want to "drive" and for those that want to "time trial".

Time Trial is a vastly under-utilized part of the title on PC....

Schnizz58
29-09-2015, 17:09
Casey and/or Jussi: Is there something in the physics of the DBR1 that would cause it to pull to the right? Would the de Dion rear suspension cause that?

Casey Ringley
29-09-2015, 17:19
It is very softly sprung and can get a bit of rear torque steer when on power.

As for balancing the DBR1 and 300SL into the same class, they're just too different to go that far. DBR1 is 200kg lighter with 80hp more.

Lotus 40 might match up pretty well with the Ford Mk.IV at certain tracks. Early days for that one just yet.

Casey Ringley
29-09-2015, 17:21
Casey and/or Jussi: Is there something in the physics of the DBR1 that would cause it to pull to the right? Would the de Dion rear suspension cause that?

Also, that trailing link front suspension doesn't help. Small amounts of roll (such as from engine torque) can cause some undesirable bump steer effects. Not as noticeable in turns since you're already...well...turning.

Cheesenium
29-09-2015, 17:24
I honestly don't see why is matters. Not all cars need to be in "race groups". i.e. not everyone is "racing" them.. There are cars that are for people who just want to "drive" and for those that want to "time trial".

However, that does not make sense when the game has so many single classes, such Group C, or Ford GT. Are these cars meant only for "driving" or hotlaps? Instead of racing with them in a more varied grid? I understand SMS could not obtain as much manufacturers as we like but it felt odd to have all these classic race cars that is only recommended to be use in "driving" and hotlaps.

Classics is one of the unique features in pcars but it felt like it is extremely underused so far if all these content are for drives and hotlaps.

Schnizz58
29-09-2015, 17:25
Thanks Casey!

maurice-pascale
29-09-2015, 17:35
The aston martin dbr1-2 LMP screams like hell!!!......what a absolute brilliant sound....bloody hell great car!....

Shinzah
29-09-2015, 17:36
The aston martin dbr1-2 LMP screams like hell!!!......what a absolute brilliant sound....bloody hell great car!....

Yeah it does.

https://media.giphy.com/media/zBhZiVNNQjfTG/giphy.gif

yusupov
29-09-2015, 17:40
However, that does not make sense when the game has so many single classes, such Group C, or Ford GT. Are these cars meant only for "driving" or hotlaps? Instead of racing with them in a more varied grid? I understand SMS could not obtain as much manufacturers as we like but it felt odd to have all these classic race cars that is only recommended to be use in "driving" and hotlaps.

Classics is one of the unique features in pcars but it felt like it is extremely underused so far if all these content are for drives and hotlaps.
i think youre both right basically, & im sure SMS agrees. i disagree that it doesnt matter at all, but id much rather have the cars without rivals (at least for now) than artificial BOP or worse, not having them at all. situations not ideal but im quite happy to have the ford GT/AM dbr/w194 etc.

Mahjik
29-09-2015, 17:43
Are these cars meant only for "driving" or hotlaps? Instead of racing with them in a more varied grid?

They are for you to do as you please within what the sim provides... It's been pretty clear that getting "series licences" hasn't been possible, so what we have is "manufacturer licenses". With that, there may never be "complete classes" for some of the cars. However, that doesn't mean those cars are useless. They may be useless for your specific purposes, but not for others who just like taking cars and doing fun runs and/or time trials. Many people do nothing other than drive various different vehicles on Nordschleife only (with no other vehicles on track), and never drive any other tracks.

Cheesenium
29-09-2015, 17:45
i think youre both right basically, & im sure SMS agrees. i disagree that it doesnt matter at all, but id much rather have the cars without rivals (at least for now) than artificial BOP or worse, not having them at all. situations not ideal but im quite happy to have the ford GT/AM dbr/w194 etc.

Well, before Casey explained the reasons why there arent artificial BoP, I thought it is possible.

Now, I doubt it will be good as you'll get the weird BoP that R3E's Group A has. A Nissan R32 does felt odd to be competing with a Volvo 240 as it felt like the Volvo 240 performance is heavily inflated to compete with a car that is about 10 years newer. It wont be fun, IMO if similar BoP is done to DBR1 and 300SL as the cars would felt out of character.

Knowing the reason, yeah, I am fine with them as separate class.


They are for you to do as you please within what the sim provides... It's been pretty clear that getting "series licences" hasn't been possible, so what we have is "manufacturer licenses". With that, there may never be "complete classes" for some of the cars. However, that doesn't mean those cars are useless. They may be useless for your specific purposes, but not for others who just like taking cars and doing fun runs and/or time trials. Many people do nothing other than drive various different vehicles on Nordschleife only (with no other vehicles on track), and never drive any other tracks.

I know we have manufacturer license but we could had license cars that are closer in competition instead of having so many single classes in the game. Suggesting these well designed vehicles to only hotlaps is quite a waste as they are some of the best content the game offers on top of the fact that, these classics rarely appear in other games with a lot of depth in handling characteristics. Also, i never requested for "complete classes" with numerous cars as I would prefer to see some classic content having another car to race with instead of many of them are single makes. GT3/LMP/Road never had any series license yet we could have a diverse set of vehicles with plenty of characters.

I admit these classic content is largely pointless for me but asking me to do hotlaps with them because they do not have competing cars is rather unreasonable.

Casey Ringley
29-09-2015, 18:00
Or you can do single-make races with them. I really don't understand why so many look down on this concept. A group of 20 DBR1s (or 300SLs, or Continental GT3s, or...) battling in close proximity is awesome fun!

crowtrobot
29-09-2015, 18:06
A proper 'Multi-class' option for Quick Race would go a long way to making the DLC cars more usable, particularly since the cars offered came from multi-class series.

Mahjik
29-09-2015, 18:09
I admit these classic content is largely pointless for me but asking me to do hotlaps with them because they do not have competing cars is rather unreasonable.

Nobody is "asking you" to do anything with them. If they don't fit your racing needs, don't use them at all. It's that simple.

Cheesenium
29-09-2015, 18:15
Or you can do single-make races with them. I really don't understand why so many look down on this concept. A group of 20 DBR1s (or 300SLs, or Continental GT3s, or...) battling in close proximity is awesome fun!

I had been doing single makes with some of these cars. There are times that i hoped to have non single makes races with these classics in similar ways that most modern GT/LMP/Road classes has at least 1 competitor.

While for Continental GT3, wont it be a bit odd to have full grid of white Bentleys? Hopefully we'll get some official liveries for that car that isnt white.

Still, I quite enjoyed Vantage GTE single makes, surprisingly.

maurice-pascale
29-09-2015, 18:23
Or you can do single-make races with them. I really don't understand why so many look down on this concept. A group of 20 DBR1s (or 300SLs, or Continental GT3s, or...) battling in close proximity is awesome fun!

Yeah maybe for some race's, but not for ever.....to have the option to choose between a single car race and some more different cars in the class is much better then to be forced to always drive a single make class

ARNAGEist
29-09-2015, 18:28
It does!
Definately the best sounding LMP1 in the game.

I've downloaded it and had a race at Le Mans & it's my new favourite Pcars Car. as for the sound to me it sounds more like the privateer run Lola Aston than the original Gulf livery car. the privateer cars had the rev limit dropped and they didn't scream quite as much, still damn good though
The GTE is also fantastic, good job done I think on these. all we need now is the GT1 DBR9

Shinzah
29-09-2015, 18:43
Yeah maybe for some race's, but not for ever.....to have the option to choose between a single car race and some more different cars in the class is much better then to be forced to always drive a single make class

You get the car, and you can drive the car. You could have no car. Why is it always, that when people are given something they want more of something else?

I think a custom class definition system would be nice, but probably really hard to implement as cars aren't being run in more than one class now that they could be run in. E.G the GT2 and GTE Aston could be in a two car GTE class AND GT3 if this would be possible or worth implementing.

Anyway, it's hard to license these old cars and even harder to get them in their classifications. It's even difficult to model the car to the classification that it ran in. It takes a ton of effort in licensing and researching to even get it in the ballpark, and most cars of the 50s era of racing were very poorly classed and matched against incredible odds in their own classes. It was more about the big, big, long, rallye road races for these cars where the times were being made up by mileage or mistakes or reliability.

But regardless, the reason why other sims rarely bother is because of this. At the very least SMS delivers *some* classic content to us, even if we can't remake 1959 LeMans. We could have none and cut the time to produce more modern cars down.

I think it'd be really nice if people just said "Thank you for this car and the work done on it." rather than "When are we getting more cars? This single class thing sucks! I want more variety! Where are my custom championships?!".


Also all this has done is make me want to give the DBR1 (a car I didn't have much interest in) more of a go. Which I think I will do later.

balderz002
29-09-2015, 19:43
all we need now is the GT1 DBR9

That sounds like a great idea!!!

John Hargreaves
29-09-2015, 21:24
Or you can do single-make races with them. I really don't understand why so many look down on this concept. A group of 20 DBR1s (or 300SLs, or Continental GT3s, or...) battling in close proximity is awesome fun!

Most of the support races in any race event tend to be single make series, can't see much of a problem with it really

hkraft300
30-09-2015, 00:09
You want to run multi-class: set car class restrictions to "any" and decide with your buddies what cars you're racing. Done like that in MP.
I've run GT1 + GT1x races, LMP1 + 900 races.
There's many other combinations you could do.

Anyway. Thank you SMS, for the Lola. It's my new fav car. What a beast :eek:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-09-2015, 00:20
Another fun hobby: Someone comes up with a laptime with any car, on any track, with any settings. They tell others what the track is and what the time is, but not what car they used to get there. Then after a few days when everyone has found a car they can use to match that time as closely as possible (not allowed to go faster, and can be reached via using specific tyres, or restrictors, or gearing limitations, etc.) everyone gets together for a race in whatever they ended up with. One time we had Atom 300s, Huayras, gearing limited Formula Cs, engine restricted GT3 cars and even the Lotus 49 on more modern tyres in the same race, everyone putting in the same lap times. Fun times. =)

Shinzah
30-09-2015, 00:33
Another fun hobby: Someone comes up with a laptime with any car, on any track, with any settings. They tell others what the track is and what the time is, but not what car they used to get there. Then after a few days when everyone has found a car they can use to match that time as closely as possible (not allowed to go faster, and can be reached via using specific tyres, or restrictors, or gearing limitations, etc.) everyone gets together for a race in whatever they ended up with. One time we had Atom 300s, Huayras, gearing limited Formula Cs, engine restricted GT3 cars and even the Lotus 49 on more modern tyres in the same race, everyone putting in the same lap times. Fun times. =)

That was one of the coolest things ever.

Ultra slow 98T for the win (loss)

hkraft300
30-09-2015, 05:38
New community event: "Guess Jussi's Ride!" ;)

Felipe Becker
30-09-2015, 08:03
I kept thinking about this when I first Drive it on the ring: Isn't the Merc a little too grippy? It seems it has more grip than the yellowbird. The brakes seems to be tremendously strong as well or it may just be an impression since the car doesn't have much speed?Anyway it is a fun car to drive and I loved the DLC. Thx SMS! :)

Shinzah
30-09-2015, 08:06
I kept thinking about this when I first Drive it on the ring: Isn't the Merc a little too grippy? It seems it has more grip than the yellowbird. The brakes seems to be tremendously strong as well or it may just be an impression since the car doesn't have much speed?Anyway it is a fun car to drive and I loved the DLC. Thx SMS! :)

Weight. Weight does wonders.

Invincible
30-09-2015, 08:15
I kept thinking about this when I first Drive it on the ring: Isn't the Merc a little too grippy? It seems it has more grip than the yellowbird. The brakes seems to be tremendously strong as well or it may just be an impression since the car doesn't have much speed?Anyway it is a fun car to drive and I loved the DLC. Thx SMS! :)

I think that is just imagination due to the low speed and very low weight.

Roger Prynne
30-09-2015, 11:21
Another fun hobby: Someone comes up with a laptime with any car, on any track, with any settings. They tell others what the track is and what the time is, but not what car they used to get there. Then after a few days when everyone has found a car they can use to match that time as closely as possible (not allowed to go faster, and can be reached via using specific tyres, or restrictors, or gearing limitations, etc.) everyone gets together for a race in whatever they ended up with. One time we had Atom 300s, Huayras, gearing limited Formula Cs, engine restricted GT3 cars and even the Lotus 49 on more modern tyres in the same race, everyone putting in the same lap times. Fun times. =)

Yes they were good times indeed... (no pun intended) ;)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-09-2015, 12:30
I kept thinking about this when I first Drive it on the ring: Isn't the Merc a little too grippy? It seems it has more grip than the yellowbird. The brakes seems to be tremendously strong as well or it may just be an impression since the car doesn't have much speed?Anyway it is a fun car to drive and I loved the DLC. Thx SMS! :)It's partly the very low power giving an illusion of more grip, since the grip is better balanced with the power. During testing we had a few experimental tyres on the Lotus 49 for example, and one specific set was to test how low the grip could go without making the tyres uncontrollable. With the normal Lotus 49 they were really damn difficult to control, but restrict the engine to 200 bhp and they actually were quite nice to drive. =)

That said the grip on the tyres might be a bit on the high side, I haven't tested them extensively yet but looks like they're getting close to 1G or so, which could be a bit high depending on what era the tyres represent (Casey mentioned that they didn't do individual tyres for the vintage cars in an effort to group them up a bit better). Some racing cars could break the 1G limit in the early 60s at least, the Lotus 49 in 1967 could hit somewhere around 1.2-1.3 G (this means that the Lotus 49 could corner as fast as a modern hypercar on fantastic road tyres, but obviously the grip delivery was completely different), but I really don't know if they were as close to the 1G marker in the 50s, or what period the tyres are representing. Road tyres weren't even close to these figures at the time, I've seen tyre tests of then new radial tyres from the mid-70s, which were specifically touted as being far more grippy overall than the previous bias ply tyres, and even these sporty radials could only manage at best around 0.7 G on a skidpan, one or two peaking to 0.8 G momentarily. So are they too grippy right now? Hard to say, data from back then isn't massively easy to come by and we don't really know what period these tyres are representing exactly.

Also to my recollection (I need to test the CTR specifically) the Denloc tyres are also slightly too high on grip as well. In another car I tested I was hitting 1 G laterally quite easily, which I think is stretching it for late 80s to early 90s road rubber, something more in the 0.9-0.95 G range fits the measurements I've seen from real cars better. 1 G and slightly over that is what modern sporty tyres are pulling, and for reference our All Weather tyres in-game are representing a step above that level.

Shinzah
30-09-2015, 12:35
and for reference our All Weather tyres in-game are representing a step above that level.

The All-Weathers are far too grippy. They feel like midrange sports rubber. The trackday tires, whichever they are (on the Evo at least, where I drive mostly) are probably far too nice in grip, but they wear extremely quickly. In any case, I can run within a tenth of my PB's on All-Weathers and the Trackday Tires, which seems wrong if the All-Weathers are supposed to be Daily Driver tires (and poor Daily Driver tires at that, given they are All-Weathers and not either Summer/Winter dedicated tires.)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-09-2015, 12:50
The All Weathers replicate Pirelli P Zero/Michelin Pilot Sport level tyres, so they're supposed to be "super good road legal sports rubber", a step below the "YOU'RE THE BEST AROOUND!" of the P Zero Corsas and Pilot Sport Cups of the world. =)

I agree that calling them "All Weather" was a bad idea, though when they're also the rain option, they kinda are from a game perspective. I liked the previous name UHP (Ultra High Performance) much more.

That said yeah, all of the road tyres are slightly too high in grip, particularly it seems in the longitudinal. We're not talking massive amounts, but a bit off the top wouldn't hurt.

EDIT: I need to do a comparison test of these tyres again, the last time I tried there was a very clear difference in lap times between the street tyre options for me.

Shinzah
30-09-2015, 13:07
I have nearly none in the Evo, but I do drive it very hard. I'm also running it a bit stiffer than normal and as low as I can make it, and using a controller. So all of these factors are combined here.

All Weather is really misleading. It'd be nice if it was UHP again. Here "All Weather" tires are cheap, often off brand tires that try to make it so you need one set year round and fail spectacularly. They are not good tires at all.

If they're P-Zero's, that makes a great deal more sense. I for one, was very confused putting those things on and not noticing too much of a massive loss of grip. They do have a bit of a slide to them, as though they are harder rubber, but I was sliding the soft rubber a fair amount anyway. There is a difference in the handling feel (if you can feel through a controller) but it hasn't translated to any of my laptimes (in the Evo) I even prefer to run the All-Weathers at the Catalunya race in the Euro trackday invitational series as I can glide the most beautiful four wheel drifts ^^;

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-09-2015, 13:20
Yeah, the name is unfortunate. But hey, think about it this way: They're not All Season, just All Weather. I wouldn't want to take the Pilot Cups out in the rain. =)

EDIT: PS. I wish we had actual All Season tyres as options, even without SNOW. I want something closer to an economy tyre as an option. =/

Shinzah
30-09-2015, 13:26
It doesn't help when the terms are interchangeable here ;)

I will just think of them as the slightly harder drifty tires ^^;

And my god, I want DOT daily driver rubber on the road cars, too.

JohnSchoonsBeard
30-09-2015, 16:40
Or you can do single-make races with them. I really don't understand why so many look down on this concept. A group of 20 DBR1s (or 300SLs, or Continental GT3s, or...) battling in close proximity is awesome fun!

We do exactly that in some of our races in our CRAP pCARS club. We've had some great races recently in the Audi LMS GT3 car, the Caper Monterey Stockcar and the Yellowbird. As long as we have multiple liveries it makes race planning easy. We do class races too but single make races have proved excellent for the group.

Antoniopua
01-10-2015, 11:00
Hola :).

Tengo todos los DLCs y son estupendos...coches con muchísimos detalles; suspensiones visibles y funcionales, cardán....un trabajo de orfebreria que os lo agradezco profundamente :).

Todos los coches estan hechos de forma exquisita. Muchas gracias!!!. El trabajo en los neumáticos es de una calidad inusitada. Ademas, el ultimo neumático añadido es increíble no solo en sus propiedades, si no también visualmente con su logotipo de dunlop racing..con su dibujo de época original, y todo tipo de detalles visibles ;).

Me gustaría que la altura del mercedes 300 sel amg 6.3 fuera mas baja..creo que es un poco alto comparado con el modelo real. Y otra cosa, ¿tendremos la pintura original para el aston martin dbr1-2 y gte de gulf? :( Me dejo triste no tenerlas en xbox one. Gracias y buen trabajo :).

Roger Prynne
01-10-2015, 11:07
^^^ Sorry but it's English only on this forum.

Lawndarts
01-10-2015, 14:13
You should post these on the wiki, if it's stillupdated. Very enjoyable read that adds a lot of appreciation for each car. I'm sure I've missed a few of these posts in the past.

e23belen
09-01-2016, 23:51
Is there any way that the V8 GTE can get a power boost? The largest restrictor size I've found for it was an IMSA bop restrictor of 29.7 mm. With its current BoP in game it's only really competitive on shorter tracks like Laguna Seca.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-01-2016, 02:30
Could only find two mentions of that restrictor size for the Aston, one was for 2012 cars and unknown whether it was air intake or fuel rig restrictor size, and one was definitely fuel rig restrictor size. All other mentions I saw were at most 29.5 mm and often restricted to under 29 mm. Also kinda doubt that 0.2 mm would add that much power to the car. Personally I'm more interested in the seemingly low'ish cornering performance, it's stable and good in the corners but the M3 GT, Z4 GT3 and Ginetta G55 GT3 all seem to beat it in the corners quite handily. The results were the same for three levels of aero dynamics tested (low, mid and high on all cars, balanced so that aero under or oversteer isn't an issue), those three cars beat it in both cornering and braking G force tests. The M3 GT was the best at cornering outright while the G55 GT3 took the braking tests, if the Aston could at least match the M3 GT it should get significantly quicker.

e23belen
21-01-2016, 16:43
Click the IMSA link at the bottom of the article. Restrictor for the Aston GTE reads 2×29.7mm. My basic calculation indicates a ~7hp increase from 460 to 467.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/gtlm-gtd-bop-adjustments-finalized-for-rolex-24/

Regarding the braking and cornering performance you refer to, I have the sneaking suspicion that the car doesn't use the same tires as the rest of the GT3 class. The same issue the M3 GT had before the August or September update.

Shadowoff
29-01-2016, 15:44
Yes, its me again who is complaining about the Aston Martin GTE...
I wrote a lot with Jussi about these theme and finally we got a "result". The Aston Martin GTE isnt underpowered, braking isnt the problem aswell, but the GTE is a car with high aerodynamics, but they arent in the game. It has the same amount of grip as the Z4 or RGT8, but is slower on the straight, means that the GTE is loosing everything there... "Then give the car more power"... Wrong, the power is like in real life. If the car would also have the same aerodynamics like in reality, it would gain the time in the corner its loosing on the straight. Maybe the GTE should get a re-balance. I mean: Have a look at the leaderboard, the car is on certain (nearly all) tracks slower then any GT3 car. "Not many people drive this car in TT". True, but try to beat some GT3 world records in TT and you will see, that it is (nearly) impossible. Hope you understood what I mean. I cam understand id the car dont get re-balanced in pCars 1, but it should get a re-balance for pCars 2.

It needs to get changed!

AbeWoz
29-01-2016, 17:01
just to throw some gas on the fire for the GTE/GT3 comparisons. Here are the results from Practice 4 at Daytona today (it was dry :D)
http://imsatiming.com/Results/2016/WeatherTech%20Championship/01-Daytona%2024%20Hour/WeatherTech%20Championship%20Daytona%20Practice%204.pdf

to go with shadows point, daytona is a speed circuit, and you can see this if you watch the race. the GTD (current FIA GT3 spec) and the GTLM (ACO GTE spec) will run the same top speeds around the oval, but the GTLM cars are about 2.5 seconds faster per lap. Now there is som BoP at play here, but the Aston GTE in pCARS needs some work.

I think that the developers "nerfed" it a bit because if not, every leaderboard time/online race will be GTE's because it would be a faster car. Now I could be wrong, but i'm curious to see what happens when/if the Corvette C7.R comes out next month.

Maybe they will rework the AM and the BMW M3 GT to create a GTE class. (fingers crossed)

Casey Ringley
29-01-2016, 17:22
Comparing the classes from this year is a false equivalency. 2016 GTE has new rules to increase power and downforce. There is also the matter of GTE cars running on Michelins while GTD uses a spec Continental slick. The Michelins are widely considered to be far superior and likely worth well over 1s per lap alone.

Shadowoff
29-01-2016, 17:23
Who thinks the same like I do about the GTE? And does anyone know how to vote?

Shadowoff
29-01-2016, 17:27
Comparing the classes from this year is a false equivalency. 2016 GTE has new rules to increase power and downforce. There is also the matter of GTE cars running on Michelins while GTD uses a spec Continental slick. The Michelins are widely considered to be far superior and likely worth well over 1s per lap alone.

C'mon... Be honest... The GTE is WAY (WAY) too slow in comparison to GT3's...

Mr Schumacher
30-01-2016, 05:57
I'm really puzzled when trying to understand the BENTLY GT GT3s performance. will this very off balanced, amazing vehicle ever receive corrections? originally although a very tail happy gt3 car, It was very competitive. Now the Bentley GT GT3 is still very tail happy and very heavy to say the least. BUT ITS ALSO VERY UNDER POWERED and not competitive with any of the really fast cars. forget about trying to compete with the BMW M3 or the Audi gt3.. its NOT FAIR..

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-01-2016, 12:51
When GTE and GT3 run in their own series where the GT3 cars aren't being pegged back to specifically be slower than the GTE, the GT3 cars have shown to often be less than a second slower than the GTE cars, sometimes even faster as well. And this with Michelin bringing superior tyres to GTE and allowing the teams to pick their tyres pretty freely, whereas Pirelli in Blancpain only brings a single dry compound to a race that you can't change, you're stuck with what you get.

Comparing the classes from this year is a false equivalency. 2016 GTE has new rules to increase power and downforce. There is also the matter of GTE cars running on Michelins while GTD uses a spec Continental slick. The Michelins are widely considered to be far superior and likely worth well over 1s per lap alone.Did you get the PM I sent you some time ago with the results of my aero testing (cornering and braking on all GT3 and GTE cars with low, mid and high DF settings)? If the Aston GTE is supposed to perform as well as the M3 GT in corners, then it was underperforming by some margin, being noticeably worse than the M3 GT, and even below the Z4 GT3 and the G55 GT3.

The top speed, weigh and power seem to all be aligning pretty well, but the Aston GTE can't really reach the other cars in the class, and hitting real life times also seems to be a struggle. If the cornering power was improved without increasing the drag (to maintain top speed verisimilitude) the car could get the boost it needs to compete, and it wouldn't be slower in the corners than the other GTE and some GT3 cars. The cornering stability itself is supremely good, but the cornering forces I'm seeing are below what I was expecting based on the M3 GT.