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KANETAKER
12-10-2015, 17:54
Hi, I would like to make an inquiry about a detail that I think applies in particular when preparing the configuration (setup) of some cars for fast circuits like Monza and Le Mans due to its long straights. I've noticed this detail almost racing cars that have been in the DLC's post of "Icons Racing Car Pack", although in the BMW V12 LMP900 and the McLaren 12c GT3 I've noticed the same "problem".

(NOTE: Sorry for my bad english)

Personally I am focusing on the GT3 cars and LMP1. For Le Mans and Monza I usually put the Downforce (front and rear) to 1.0 or 0.0, and Camber Angle of the tires to 0.0 too (especially the rear wheels), for gain more acceleration and top speed.

220170220171 Audi R18 TDI and Aston Martin Vantage V12 GT3

But... I don't know why the Camber Angle in the new DLC cars is "blocked" to -0.9 because in the three first LMP1 cars (and all GT3 cars before the AM V8 GTE) we can put the Camber Angle to -0.0. WHY ??

220172220173220174 Audi R18 eTron Quattro, Aston martin Vantage V8 GTE and Aston Martin DBR1-2

This is one of the reasons for can't reach more Top Speed and acceleration on the long straights of Le Mans... =/ With the Audi R18 TDI I could reach 332-333 km/h in race configuration thanks in part to this detail. (over 330 Km/h which indicates the original specifications of the game for this car). But instead with the Audi R18 eTron Quattro becomes difficult to achieve the 326-328 Km/h even further reducing the size of the radiator and brake cooling ducts. No idea how to achieve even exceed 330 km / h with eTron, if not that also seeks to achieve the form of 338 Km/h which indicates the original specifications of the game for this car.

Only with the Aston Martin DBR1-2 is possible to reach 340 km/h which indicates the original specifications of the game (thanks to its powerful V12 engine) but instead the car becomes completely unmanageable especially in the corners (poor grip and no traction even with the TC enabled), and no idea how some players have managed to lower time to 3:26 - 3:25 at LeMans; there are even two who managed to do 3:21 - 3:20, what insurance they have FAILED to get through with the RWD P30 that is the best LMP1 car of the game for now (and my favourite car of the game).

Some players are very concerned by this aspect, especially because we fear the same will happen with the new Toyota TS040 (as soon as the new DLC) and therefore that new car LMP1 are severely limited top speed compared to other cars LMP1 game even slower than the 2014 Toyota TS040 in real life. There would not be much of a problem if there was a way to better control the subject of KERS (on the LMP1 Hybrids) and can use it better.

With the Aston Martin Vantage V8 GTE it's the same problem with the limited Camber Angle... I can reach 310 Km/h on LeMans with the AM Vantage V12 GT3, but I can't reach 300 Km/h with the new AM Vantage V8 GTE.

Mahjik
12-10-2015, 18:21
Top speed isn't a direct result of camber. Top speed is more about aero efficiency and power (i.e. the more drag a car has, the more power it needs). However, you should know that this "camber exploit" will be going away soon.

JupiterJoe
12-10-2015, 18:42
Top speed isn't a direct result of camber. Top speed is more about aero efficiency and power (i.e. the more drag a car has, the more power it needs). However, you should know that this "camber exploit" will be going away soon.Wouldn't the 'Force Default Setups' option available since Patch 4.0 prevent people from using this 'Camber Exploit'? First I've heard of it by the way.

Sampo
12-10-2015, 18:48
I tried it and it's still true that you can't use camber higher than -0.9 on those cars. Is that by design and if it is, why is it?

lollygag
12-10-2015, 18:52
Reduced camber is very important to top speed as the tires roll faster without the deformation higher camber causes as the tire rolls on the inner edge.

And the reduced rolling resistance to achieve higher top speeds isnt an exploit, the problem is that currently the minimal camber does not impact cornering as much as it should.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
12-10-2015, 19:09
Reduced camber is very important to top speed as the tires roll faster without the deformation higher camber causes as the tire rolls on the inner edge.

And the reduced rolling resistance to achieve higher top speeds isnt an exploit, the problem is that currently the minimal camber does not impact cornering as much as it should.It is an exploit, IRL there's a slight reduction in drag when running 0 toe and 0 camber, vs. running 0 toe and a lot of camber, but the difference in SMALL (at least on most tyres). Currently the change is way way way way way too big.

KANETAKER
12-10-2015, 20:35
Top speed isn't a direct result of camber. Top speed is more about aero efficiency and power (i.e. the more drag a car has, the more power it needs). However, you should know that this "camber exploit" will be going away soon.

If fix this exploit, that means that some cars may not reach nor exceed certain top speed? For example: The R18 TDI not reach 333 km/h or the RWD P30 the 335 - 340 km/h ? Why this issue to limit the maximum speed of the fastest race cars when they were made precisely for that purpose? (LMP = LeMans Prototype, and Le Mans is a very good and fast circuit with very long straights).

Also, one thing is to avoid exceeding the top speed indicates the originally set for each car (for example: The Mercedes SLS GT3 should not exceed 290 km/h; the Audi R18 TDI 330 Km/h), but the problem is that on some cars it is difficult even to reach the maximum speed that the game indicates, as in the case of AUDI R18 Quattro eTron in the game indicates that its maximum speed is 338 km/h but even we reach the 330 Km/h even though we played a lot on the setup. At least with the RWD P30 itself has been able to reach 340 km/h but only standing behind another car in the suction effect (in overtaking manuver). With the just I may attain 335 km/h riding alone (not behind another car), without the engine going blown up (Just with water and oil temp. at 124C and 120C respectively in a 2 hours of race at 13h00 - 15h00 with sun).

I wonder if this really camber to -0.9 affect or not the current Top speed of the three original LMP1 cars of the game (TDI, RWD, Marek, and also the Bentley Speed 8, Sauber C9, McLaren F1 Long Tail, Mercedes CLK LM). Because the matter is that cars remain fast in straight, not slow them down (no one will die if someone is crashing more than 330 Km/h in the game). But then so they will slowly kill the desire to play this great racing game.

If SMS decide to "fix" this "exploit", then you must restart the Leaderboard again, right? Because just as the issue of Cutting Corners, the times and top speeds would be unattainable if fix this "exploit". Or is there other way to keep reaching those top speeds without putting at -0.0 camber? Because one thing is to make fast laps with 335 - 340 km/h in just 2 - 3 Qualifying Laps (by reducing the size of the radiator and brake ducts to a minimum), and another thing is to be able to do the same (reach more of 330 Km/h) for 2 or more hours of Race (with race configuration) without the engine will explode (blown up).

Mahjik
12-10-2015, 20:55
If fix this exploit, that means that some cars may not reach nor exceed certain top speed?

No. The main difference is that cornering doesn't suffer like it should. i.e. there is no trade-off for creating a setup like that. Once it's addressed (and it's coming soon), your car will still be fast on the straight, but you'll suffer in the corners. The question will be is which will provide a better overall lap time? We'll have to see once the changes are in place for us to use but I doubt it's going to be the way it is today.


If SMS decide to "fix" this "exploit", then you must restart the Leaderboard again, right?

Unknown at this point...

KANETAKER
12-10-2015, 21:02
No. The main difference is that cornering doesn't suffer like it should. i.e. there is no trade-off for creating a setup like that. Once it's addressed (and it's coming soon), your car will still be fast on the straight, but you'll suffer in the corners. The question will be is which will provide a better overall lap time? We'll have to see once the changes are in place for us to use but I doubt it's going to be the way it is today.

Unknown at this point...

Personally I have noticed the difference between -0.9 and -0.0. Maybe I should do a test (and a demonstration video) with my best car, the RWD P30 (under the same conditions, at Le Mans) to see whether there is a noticeable difference in top speed.

By the way, another detail that I noticed on some cars is that when you leave the pitlane in practice sessions or in qualifying the tires are too cold (in blue) without grip, while other cars instead if they leave the pitlane with good temperature (green) with enough grip.

Schnizz58
12-10-2015, 21:24
By the way, another detail that I noticed on some cars is that when you leave the pitlane in practice sessions or in qualifying the tires are too cold (in blue) without grip, while other cars instead if they leave the pitlane with good temperature (green) with enough grip.
Depends on the class I believe. Some classes have tire blankets for practice and qualy and others don't. Formula B in particular don't have tire warmers and they're damn near undriveable for about a half a lap. But that's just how that class is. They are loosely based on GP2 (I think) and they don't have warmers either.

KANETAKER
12-10-2015, 21:53
Depends on the class I believe. Some classes have tire blankets for practice and qualy and others don't. Formula B in particular don't have tire warmers and they're damn near undriveable for about a half a lap. But that's just how that class is. They are loosely based on GP2 (I think) and they don't have warmers either.

I see this issue of the tire temp. with the Audi R8 and BMW V12 but not with the Bentley Speed 8 (all three LMP900 cars).

Schnizz58
12-10-2015, 22:21
Can't explain that one. It's definitely class-dependent but obviously all cars in the same class ought to behave the same way.

Mahjik
12-10-2015, 22:31
I see this issue of the tire temp. with the Audi R8 and BMW V12 but not with the Bentley Speed 8 (all three LMP900 cars).

Likely due to the model years (with the Bentley being the latest one at 2003) and when tire warmers were allowed.

Doge
12-10-2015, 23:19
It is an exploit, IRL there's a slight reduction in drag when running 0 toe and 0 camber, vs. running 0 toe and a lot of camber, but the difference in SMALL (at least on most tyres). Currently the change is way way way way way too big.

This guy is the one that knows his stuff. The problem is not that cornering should be worse, the problem is that camber levels influence straight line speed WAY too much now.

Once you go over certain power levels extra rolling resistence coming from alignment becomes insignificant. May I add, it's toe that should have any noticeable effect on rolling resistence, camber barely changes anything IRL. You get a bit of deformation but as a trade-off less contact patch in a straight line. So whatever you do with it won't change much regarding top speed. Camber is a matter of lateral vs longitudinal grip, not cornering vs straight line speed.

The lateral grip lost with low (low as in "close to 0") camber levels is OK, it is noticeable, just as the increased straight line traction and braking ability. Problem is it's influencing straight line speed WAY too much.

PS: any plan to change the iron brakes on the FA for carbon ones? XD

Sampo
12-10-2015, 23:26
Did I not see it but isn't there still the fact that you can't set the camber higher than -0.9 (meaning -0.8 and so on) with some of the cars?

Schnizz58
12-10-2015, 23:33
Did I not see it but isn't there still the fact that you can't set the camber higher than -0.9 (meaning -0.8 and so on) with some of the cars?
That's true. Different cars have different ranges of adjustment for various things.

Sampo
12-10-2015, 23:43
AM Vantage G3 can use 0.0 camber, but AM Vantage GTE can use only -0.9 and not higher? Same goes for Audi R18 e-tron quattro. No higher than -0.9. And when I say higher I mean -0.8 is higher than -0.9.

There's a 0.9 discrepancy between the default cambers of G3 and the GTE. That applies to the e-tron as well. I haven't checked other cars though.

KANETAKER
12-10-2015, 23:51
Well... This is the results of the comparative test between -0.0 and -0.9 on Camber Angle (Front and Rear) with the RWD P30.

1.- Camber Angle in -0.0

220183220184220185220186220187

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.- Camber Angle in -0.9

220188220189220190220191220192220193

Personally I am very disappointed with the results obtained by using -0.9 since lost 2 or 3 Km/h of top speed and about 1 second per lap. I am sad and worried about this..

hkraft300
13-10-2015, 00:12
I disagree with your conclusion that camber affected your top speed and therefore your lap time.
Have a look at your lateral and longitudinal acceleration numbers.

Personally I'm very happy that effects of camber will more closely reflect/simulate real life. I think it'll have improved and interesting flow-on effects of sway bar/spring rate, toe and caster angle effects.

+1 for more realistic setups, not gran Turismo physics.

Schnizz58
13-10-2015, 00:47
Personally I'm very happy that effects of camber will more closely reflect/simulate real life. I think it'll have improved and interesting flow-on effects of sway bar/spring rate, toe and caster angle effects.

+1 for more realistic setups, not gran Turismo physics.
I totally agree with this but with the new physics, wouldn't his top speed go up due to less drag? My understanding is that more camber angle creates more drag than it should and therefore the gain from running lower camber is greater than the loss in cornering from a smaller contact patch. So everybody wins. More realistic and faster. Or maybe I'm not understanding properly.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 00:59
I disagree with your conclusion that camber affected your top speed and therefore your lap time.
Have a look at your lateral and longitudinal acceleration numbers.

Personally I'm very happy that effects of camber will more closely reflect/simulate real life. I think it'll have improved and interesting flow-on effects of sway bar/spring rate, toe and caster angle effects.

+1 for more realistic setups, not gran Turismo physics.

At least it contributes to a solution to keep the top speed on the long straights in the fastest cars, unless you are of those drivers who prefer to go slower... As FIA seeking to make F1 cars more slower (and the LMP1 cars in 2016). Some of us like to go faster pushing the limits.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBpVJGiTKcE (The FIA wants to slow the LMP1 cars after seeing this 2015 became almost as fast as an F1 car.)

I feel happy and peaceful if only I knew how did this player to reach 336 - 337 km/h and mark 3:19.113 in Le Mans...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7C4uBPfN74

It would be nice to know if he got it with the camber in -0.0 or -0.9 instead on (or more). I would also like to know if he got it with Race Setup or did use an extreme Setup only for 2-3 laps (issues of brake temperature, engine, and tire wear).

hkraft300
13-10-2015, 01:02
Right now I think the problem is the 0 camber is not having the grip disadvantage that it should.
Once balanced, lap times might just remain the same. Maybe you'll pull more lateral G to carry a higher top speed onto the long straight... But looking at the above telemetry I don't think the top speed thing is the issue. Neg camber isn't deforming the necessary amount to provide the increased contact patch and grip that it should. 0 camber isn't deforming in the way it should to be hurting lap times, therefore providing an awesome and level contact patch all the time.

I don't have tire data so I can't say if lap times will go up or down, but hopefully it'll be more realistic. Right now I'm not getting desired effects on tires from sway bar adjustments.

2 kmh top speed difference at Le Mans is not cause for losing 1 second. You spend very little time in that zone. It's the increased grip in corners giving the better lap times with 0 camber, judging by the telemetry data posted above.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 01:08
I totally agree with this but with the new physics, wouldn't his top speed go up due to less drag? My understanding is that more camber angle creates more drag than it should and therefore the gain from running lower camber is greater than the loss in cornering from a smaller contact patch. So everybody wins. More realistic and faster. Or maybe I'm not understanding properly.

There is a confusion with the terms of camber angle. All I do know is that when the camber angle is -0.9, -1.5 and -2.4 (for example) I lose some acceleration and top speed. However when I adjust the camber by -0.7, -0.6, -0.3 or -0.0 I can feel how the car has more power and speed on the straights.


Right now I think the problem is the 0 camber is not having the grip disadvantage that it should.
Once balanced, lap times might just remain the same. Maybe you'll pull more lateral G to carry a higher top speed onto the long straight... But looking at the above telemetry I don't think the top speed thing is the issue. Neg camber isn't deforming the necessary amount to provide the increased contact patch and grip that it should. 0 camber isn't deforming in the way it should to be hurting lap times, therefore providing an awesome and level contact patch all the time.

I don't have tire data so I can't say if lap times will go up or down, but hopefully it'll be more realistic. Right now I'm not getting desired effects on tires from sway bar adjustments.

2 kmh top speed difference at Le Mans is not cause for losing 1 second. You spend very little time in that zone. It's the increased grip in corners giving the better lap times with 0 camber, judging by the telemetry data posted above.

I will upload a video with my setup used on LeMans, a lack of adjustment used to know what the other guy who scored 3:19.113 and reached 336 km/h with the same car that I use.

PD: This is my fast lap on LeMans some weeks ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stn280SDxTU

Schnizz58
13-10-2015, 01:13
I thought I read where Jussi had been doing some testing and he concluded that camber was actually doing what it was supposed to do for contact patch but that the drag effects were way too high. The net result was that the reduced drag from 0 camber far outweighed the reduced contact patch. This would be especially true at Le Mans where there are long straights and not many tight turns. Also, the effect is not only felt at top speed but the increased drag affects acceleration too. So it would be slowing you down every step of the way down the Mulsanne and the back straights. I could see it making a second difference. I guess it all remains to be seen but I can't see it hurting lap times in most cases and certainly being more realistic is what we're all about here.

Schnizz58
13-10-2015, 01:15
There is a confusion with the terms of camber angle. All I do know is that when the camber angle is -0.9, -1.5 and -2.4 (for example) I lose some acceleration and top speed. However when I adjust the camber by -0.7, -0.6, -0.3 or -0.0 I can feel how the car has more power and speed on the straights.
What's confusing about it? The situation you describe is exactly what they're trying to fix.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 01:20
Then, this is my setup that I always use on LeMans:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIqAEpyx1KU

Also, I have SC, TC and ABS enabled. I use a Logitech G27 Wheel on PC.

hkraft300
13-10-2015, 01:25
I'd take Jussi's word for it. I'm only going by the 1 set of Kane's telemetry data. According to that, his longitudinal acceleration is hardly affected by the camber difference (but drag will compound the effect of acceleration and top speed) but his lateral accel/deceleration and longitudinal deceleration (braking) maximums are way down with some camber. Means he's cornering and braking harder with 0 camber than he is with some camber. That in itself should make him a fair bit slower than just 1 second.

Going off topic a bit, Kane, try getting on the brakes hard and fast at the initial application. Seems you're getting on the brakes gradually instead of stomping it. That will reduce your braking distance by a little bit :)

Can't wait to get telemetry support for consoles!

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 01:27
What's confusing about it? The situation you describe is exactly what they're trying to fix.

But I just wanted an explanation to the subject, most I do not want the slower cars because of a possible settlement in the future. Apparently it seems that I should have kept my mouth shut instead of exposing this issue ... I do not want to lose top speed on the straights =(

As indeed LMP1 cars in the game lose top speed, I feel very disappointed and perhaps even stop playing this great game for which I paid to play with these amazing machines.

Schnizz58
13-10-2015, 01:32
Can't wait to get telemetry support for consoles!

Word. And as long as we're getting off topic, these WTCC grid girls are smoking.

Schnizz58
13-10-2015, 01:36
But I just wanted an explanation to the subject, most I do not want the slower cars because of a possible settlement in the future. Apparently it seems that I should have kept my mouth shut instead of exposing this issue ... I do not want to lose top speed on the straights =(

As indeed LMP1 cars in the game lose top speed, I feel very disappointed and perhaps even stop playing this great game for which I paid to play with these amazing machines.
You didn't expose it. It's been there all along and lots of people have been taking advantage of it. Look at Jack van Hees' setups for Formula A. Nearly every one of them has 0 camber in the rear and minimal camber in front (less than 1 degree). Also, as I said above, the change shouldn't slow you down in the straights. You should be able to run higher camber with less straight line penalty and get the advantage of better cornering.

hkraft300
13-10-2015, 01:42
^+1


Word. And as long as we're getting off topic, these WTCC grid girls are smoking.

Also +1 for grid girls.
NEVER say no to grid girls ;)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-10-2015, 02:17
This guy is the one that knows his stuff. The problem is not that cornering should be worse, the problem is that camber levels influence straight line speed WAY too much now.Both actually, the effect of camber for cornering is way too small (some say camber has no effect but I have managed to isolate the effect of camber thrust in an experiment, it is there but it is very minuscule) and the influence to straight line speed is way too big.

In real life increasing camber can be so effective that even when the tyre starts lifting off the outside so much that you get less contact patch in a corner, you can still get improved cornering performance from the camber thrust effect. You can run massive camber angles and get big cornering benefits from it, but after a certain point your tyre wear should start increasing very quickly, reducing the overall effectiveness. Hence why in an endurance racing scenario you'd be looking at something like 2-3.5 degrees of negative camber and something like 8-12 degrees Celsius temperature range across the tyre (despite what people keep touting, 5 degrees C is a conservative amount), but in a sprint race you could well see -4.5 degrees all around and 20 degrees Celsius temperature spread across the tyre (this is what Michelin recommended as a starting point for Porsche Supercup cars).

For the camber vs. rolling resistance thing: This is from a study done by... Can't remember off the top of my head which German institution it was, it was either a group of universities or the institute for road safety or something like that. Anyway, what we see here are four lines, which represent different amounts of toe. The bottom line is 0 degrees of toe, the next one is 0.5 degrees (which in in-game terms would translate to I think 1.0 degrees, because this is for a single tyre, unlike the in-game figure). With the bottom line you can see that with 0 degrees of toe, raising the camber to -2 degrees you get a very slight increase in rolling resistance compared to running flat. So increasing camber does seem to increase drag in this case, but very very little. For the most part the reduction in contact patch and the increased rolling resistance from harsher deformation at the point that's still on the ground balance themselves out, particularly with moderate toe settings.

220199

FWIW, once the camber is fixed this discussion of "these cars can run 0.0 camber while these can run only -0.9 camber" will become more or less moot, because no racing car other than perhaps a drag car would consider running camber that low (with a notable possible exception being F1 cars at the rear, to maximize contact patch for acceleration they can run slightly below -1 degree), and very few sporty road cars would go there either.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-10-2015, 02:22
I thought I read where Jussi had been doing some testing and he concluded that camber was actually doing what it was supposed to do for contact patch but that the drag effects were way too high. The net result was that the reduced drag from 0 camber far outweighed the reduced contact patch. This would be especially true at Le Mans where there are long straights and not many tight turns. Also, the effect is not only felt at top speed but the increased drag affects acceleration too. So it would be slowing you down every step of the way down the Mulsanne and the back straights. I could see it making a second difference. I guess it all remains to be seen but I can't see it hurting lap times in most cases and certainly being more realistic is what we're all about here.The model is BASICALLY doing the right things, but the magnitudes and balance is off. Camber does actually work, I've managed to isolate camber thrust in an experiment, but the magnitude is minuscule, and I haven't been able to show any actual increases in cornering grip coming from high camber in tests, not conclusively at least, and never more than like 0.01 G.

Put it like this, it was difficult to show that camber has any effect at all for cornering, but I did manage to show that it does (EDIT: Or at least that camber does have a small camber thrust component). However it is dead simple to show that camber has a big effect on straight line performance, the difference is dramatic. And this is the crux of the problem: Camber having a big effect for cornering should be easy to demonstrate, and it should also have a very small effect on straight line speed, which should be harder to demonstrate. AFAIK, the biggest straight line effect of camber should be reduced traction and braking grip, not an effect on top speed.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 02:26
You didn't expose it. It's been there all along and lots of people have been taking advantage of it. Look at Jack van Hees' setups for Formula A. Nearly every one of them has 0 camber in the rear and minimal camber in front (less than 1 degree). Also, as I said above, the change shouldn't slow you down in the straights. You should be able to run higher camber with less straight line penalty and get the advantage of better cornering.

But how do I get it without having to put in -0.0 the camber angle ?? Unless truth is clearly a mistake of the game in physical terms, losing top speed and acceleration to increase the camber to -0.9 (or more) in some racing cars. For now if I adjust the camber angle in -0.9 (or more) I lose top speed on the straights and acceleration. Unless you can find some mistake I have in my current Setup for LeMans with the RWD P30:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stn280SDxTU

Personally I'm actually looking at possible ways to scratch and get even more final speed (336-337 and even 338 km/h) but at the same time trying not to penalize much in step cornering without the engine get packed and overheated brakes. My personal limit is 334-335 km/h to feel very satisfied and happy.


AFAIK, the biggest straight line effect of camber should be reduced traction and braking grip, not an effect on top speed.

That's the big problem. By limiting the Camber Angle in -0.9 (as in the new DLC cars) does not get all the power and maximum speed that the car is capable of reaching.

With the RWD P30 I just prove that by putting on -0.9 (or more) I lose top speed and acceleration. While placing the camber angle to -0.0 the car really going at full capacity and power.

220202 With -0.0

220203 With -0.9

Look at the two pictures in which part of the long straight the car has reached the top speed.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-10-2015, 03:00
Yes, like I said there's a problem with camber right now, the devs are aware of it and are working on a fix, which will hopefully hit patch 6.

Due to the nature of the tyre model (physically simulating a tyre carcass and tread instead of running a Pacejka style magic formula with a few parameters) this takes some time and testing to get right, there isn't a simple "camber sensitivity" parameter they can adjust to fix it. It is not an inherent property of the tyre model either (there was a time during development when maximum negative camber was the only setting worth using, the cornering grip was massive with that), it's an imbalance issue with some of the properties in the tyres.

FWIW I kinda expect that the high camber behavior is closer to real level than the minimum camber behavior is, i.e. I expect that the rolling resistance we get with minimum camber is too low compared to realistic values. The cause of this issue is likely some adjustment done to the tyres towards the end of the development period, and the focus was probably mostly on what happens when using realistic amounts of camber, which let this behavior slip by without properly noticing the scale until it was too late.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 03:09
Yes, like I said there's a problem with camber right now, the devs are aware of it and are working on a fix, which will hopefully hit patch 6.

Due to the nature of the tyre model (physically simulating a tyre carcass and tread instead of running a Pacejka style magic formula with a few parameters) this takes some time and testing to get right, there isn't a simple "camber sensitivity" parameter they can adjust to fix it. It is not an inherent property of the tyre model either (there was a time during development when maximum negative camber was the only setting worth using, the cornering grip was massive with that), it's an imbalance issue with some of the properties in the tyres.

FWIW I kinda expect that the high camber behavior is closer to real level than the minimum camber behavior is, i.e. I expect that the rolling resistance we get with minimum camber is too low compared to realistic values. The cause of this issue is likely some adjustment done to the tyres towards the end of the development period, and the focus was probably mostly on what happens when using realistic amounts of camber, which let this behavior slip by without properly noticing the scale until it was too late.

I only hope that future fix is not detrimental either to reduce acceleration and top speed of the cars that can reach over 334 km/h as in the case of RWD P30. In fact rather if you could tell us how to achieve exceed 330 km/h with Audi R18 eTron Quattro as the game says his top speed is 338 Km/h but so far no one has managed to reach that top speed even in the oval Mojave =/ I only can reach 328 with the eTron on LeMans and 326 with the Marek RP.

Schnizz58
13-10-2015, 04:54
If I understand Jussi correctly, it's a double whammy. Not only are you not getting enough benefit from camber in cornering, you're paying too high of a price in the straights in the form of increased rolling resistance. So the physics guys are going to tweak some parameters of the tire model so that there is more benefit in cornering as well as less rolling resistance. [I realize it's not as simple as twisting a couple of knobs but that's the end result.] So I don't understand why you're so concerned that your car might get slower after the change.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-10-2015, 04:57
In fact rather if you could tell us how to achieve exceed 330 km/h with Audi R18 eTron Quattro as the game says his top speed is 338 Km/h but so far no one has managed to reach that top speed even in the oval Mojave =/ I only can reach 328 with the eTron on LeMans and 326 with the Marek RP.Most likely? Drafting. 338 km/h seems to have been the fastest calculated speed of the R18 e-tron in 2014, and I'm pretty certain it was done with a very good draft, the few onboard laps with the speed telemetry showing showed them reaching a bit over 320 km/h most of the time in a draft behind a GTE car on the Mulsanne, so 338 km/h was probably done with a fantastic draft.

And about where the rolling resistance will end up, like I hinted at with the "kinda", that was just my guess. I don't actually know where it'll end up.

havocc
13-10-2015, 09:30
OT: How can you push P30 at 335? 0 Df? I can't get past 310 when doing TT

Bealdor
13-10-2015, 09:33
OT: How can you push P30 at 335? 0 Df? I can't get past 310 when doing TT

It's Le Mans... so yes, 0 DF it is.
Btw. he posted his setup in post #34. ;)

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 09:41
It's Le Mans... so yes, 0 DF it is.
Btw. he posted his setup in post #34. ;)

I hope you have reached record it or saved my video ;)

Doge
13-10-2015, 10:12
I think Jussi analysis is right on the money, but I prefer them to be cautious, equalize rolling resistance across the camber range, and leave grip properties alone.

Then see how it works and if needed fix later.

I have played enough games where "moar camber=moar speed" with no downsides and last thing I want is to end up there.

Tastakrad
13-10-2015, 10:30
No video for us cause it is set to private. But do you think the other LMP1 cars can reach 330kmh+ as well like the RWD?

HiSpeeder
13-10-2015, 11:32
But how do I get it without having to put in -0.0 the camber angle ?? Unless truth is clearly a mistake of the game in physical terms, losing top speed and acceleration to increase the camber to -0.9 (or more) in some racing cars. For now if I adjust the camber angle in -0.9 (or more) I lose top speed on the straights and acceleration. Unless you can find some mistake I have in my current Setup for LeMans with the RWD P30:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIqAEpyx1KU



Can't see your setup as the video is set to private, mind making it available?

hkraft300
13-10-2015, 11:51
No video for us cause it is set to private. But do you think the other LMP1 cars can reach 330kmh+ as well like the RWD?

R18 TDi does it.
Lola does >330 with 2/2 downforce. LMP900s do it.
Sauber C9 you're looking at 350+ territory.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 15:42
No video for us cause it is set to private. But do you think the other LMP1 cars can reach 330kmh+ as well like the RWD?
It might sound selfish of me, but ... I should not put my video in private mode if the other guy who has managed to make 3:19.113 on LeMans also show the setup that he used both to break my record back to reach 336-337 km/h, which I I could not get, and that surely would be impossible if after applying the fix for the camber is limited to -0.9 RWD can no longer have all the power and top speed available. And if the other guy does not want to show his setup, why should I do it? Most of the fastest drivers do not show largely for fear that increase rivals and there appears someone who could overshadow or defeat.

And if I revealed my personal setup temporarily because I expected some expert show me any possible mistake in my setup that stop me from reaching the 335 Km/h to place at -0.9 camber of the tires, and I can only reach (and keep) that speed if I put the camber in -0.0, something is wrong, according to some players. But after several hours no one was able to tell me if they found something wrong with my setup or something that could be improved, so then I put my video private mode. This time whoever checking my configuration will help you send a private message and I will gladly show you my Setup for LeMans =)

For those who go asking about setup I used (video), it is a modified version of this other setting that is available on this page that I assume almost everyone knows:

http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/296090432

And despite this and other setups on that page or YouTube it is available apparently not all players are able to run under 3:25 in LeMans, and I've played many online games in this circuit and still undefeated until now with the LMP1 (over 20 wins and 0 losses in LeMans with RWD P30). I have yet to find any player that can keep my pace at LeMans LMP1 or with the same car; the closest I've been to 5 seconds is my rhythm back and in some cases only because I suffered some aerodynamic damage (in an incident with some stragglers who ignored the blue flags). I've only been beaten once but running with GT3 and only on the last lap because an idiot who was in the 2nd position behind me pushed me off the track and took advantage of that.

Regarding the top speed of each game LMP1, I tested with each of them at LeMans and have uploaded videos on my YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNYOL4Fv8Dnsjoq1leg_Pi4Ho5FBJMFh

The car itself with the highest top speed remains the RWD P30 while Marek is the slowest car. To check it had to do laps alone without being behind another car as it is clear that with the suction effect can increase top speed. (with suction effect managed to reach 341 km/h)

This is the order of the Top Speed of the LMP1 cars, tested in race configuration (without the engine blown and without the brakes to overheat more than 1100C ) without using KERS on the LMP1 Hybrids (without saving energy for use after the 6th gear); This is because KERS is consumed automatically whenever the car accelerating out of a curve (full Throtle pressure).


1.- RWD P30 = 334 - 335 Km/h (But in the game it indicates that its maximum speed is 340 Km/h)
2.- Aston Martin DBR1-2 = 333 - 335 Km/h depending on the setup (the game it indicates that its maximum speed is 340 Km/h)
Only if it is set to reach 340 Km/h the DBR1-2 becomes uncontrollable, which does not happen with the other LMP1 cars.
3.- Audi R18 TDI = 332 - 333 Km/h (But in the game it indicates that its maximum speed is 330 Km/h)
4.- Audi R18 e-Tron Quattro = 326 - 328 Km/h (But in the game it indicates that its maximum speed is 338 Km/h)
5.- Marek RP 339h = 324 - 326 km/h (But in the game it indicates that its maximum speed is 338 Km/h)

Tested on the longest straight of Le Mans circuit (between Tertre Rouge and Playstation chicane, the first of the three long straights of Hunaudieres).

(Note: Green = Good/Excellent Red = Bad)

havocc
13-10-2015, 18:45
Tested on the longest straight of Le Mans circuit (between Tertre Rouge and Playstation chicane, the first of the three long straights of Hunaudieres).



https://i.imgflip.com/shkgz.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/shkgz)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-10-2015, 19:30
https://i.imgflip.com/shkgz.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/shkgz)I'm assuming he wants to compare to speed trap figures from Le Mans, not theoretical top speeds.

KANETAKER
13-10-2015, 20:36
https://i.imgflip.com/shkgz.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/shkgz)

DUDE... is for two main reasons:

1. When did the tests (video) had not yet gone on sale the Aston Martin DLC with Mojave circuit.

...and the most important reason (and apparently some people failed to understand):

2. Mojave Ring isn't an official racetrack, it's just a TEST track. (and fictional)

But LeMans it is an OFFICIAL racing circuit (and is REAL), which is widely used both online multiplayer and especially in tournaments and championships online (in some leagues). Therefore, as the only official circuit with straight long enough to squeeze the speed of the cars, my attention is focused on that circuit and how to get the best possible performance of the LMP1 on race configuration (I'm not very interested in performance for qualify, only for race performance).

No player will useless reach 350 Km/h with RWD P30 in the Mojave Ring (I can do it) if anyone can't get the same top speed in Le Mans or any other race track. The most that can be achieved at LeMans with RWD or Aston Martin DBR1-2 are 340-341 km/h but only under certain conditions (by suction effect behind other car or using the KERS more later on the long straights after reach the 6th gear).

Moreover, the only possible way to achieve 350 km/h or more with a LMP1 car, would be if SMS could make available a 3rd variant of the Sarthe circuit without the two chicanes of the Hunaudieres long straight, which in 1989 divided the long straight into 3 sections. (The other two variants are Bugatti Circuit and the Circuit des 24 Heures du Mans).

PD: This is the moment when I just reach 350 Km/h in Mojave Ring, but I need reserve the KERS to use after reach 335 Km/h


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op_WOZHE3XY