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Schnizz58
14-10-2015, 15:23
I'm encountering Azure for the first time in career mode in Formula B and I'm really struggling with this track. I'm not a huge fan of street tracks to begin with and this one is more claustrophobic than most. That said, it *is* an interesting circuit to drive and I want to get better at it. I feel like if I can conquer it, it will make me a better driver.

Question 1. How do I do that? Aside from the obvious answer of just running more laps, is there something I can do to improve my consistency and lower my lap times? F/B is a pretty fast car so one thought I had was to step down to a F/C or Formula Gulf and get good with that first before attacking it with a Formula B. On the other hand it could be counterproductive because my marks will all be different. Thoughts about that or any other suggestions? Are there any particularly critical parts of the track to be aware of?

Question 2. I ran a qualifying session just to find out what kind of time I would need to be competitive. [I need to gain 5-10 seconds.] During the session, I got DQ'd for exceeding the track limits but received no warnings leading up to that. So it was a surprise that I was DQ'd. I did run straight through the chicane a couple of times trying to get my braking point right coming out of the tunnel. But other than that I don't know what I did wrong. In most places, it's pretty hard to exceed the limits because the limits are Armco barriers. The spot where I got the DQ was at turn 1. I know that the pit exit runs through turn 1 so would crossing the white line there be considered a track limit violation? I don't think I've ever been busted for that on any other track.

I appreciate any help offered.

Mahjik
14-10-2015, 16:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLyMtoDPh_w

You might be taking T1 inside the little curbing. Here's a time trial run I found online which may help with T1. It is older, so the track cuts may be different now (as I didn't watch the whole thing, just the T1 part).

Schnizz58
14-10-2015, 17:12
You might be taking T1 inside the little curbing. Here's a time trial run I found online which may help with T1. It is older, so the track cuts may be different now (as I didn't watch the whole thing, just the T1 part).
Quite possible. I'll try to be more careful right there and see how it goes. Thanks much.

Beatminister
14-10-2015, 22:24
Monaco is one of the hardest tracks to master, and it leaves no room for mistakes. There are a number of critical points that can cost - or gain - a lot of time. In turn 1 there is a curb in the middle of the road which stands for the inside of the corner, cutting it causes a penalty. Try to stay on the right in turn 3, then you dont need to brake much and take the speed into the downhill straight to turn 4. 4 is nasty, you need to find you brake point to take it properly. Next the hairpin is not too bad once you found the right way to swing around in it. Its easy to oversteer towards the left at its exit, try working with the steering sensivity setting to get more control.
The next 2 turns are not so bad to handle. Then inside the tunnel is this slight bend, where it suddenly pushes you to the left side. Try to find a line approaching it on the right side. If you get it right you dont need to come off the throttle. Well, then comes the hardest part, the downhill braking zone into the chicane. All I can say is, find the best braking point according to the car you drive, so you stay in control and on the right side. Its a real pest there.
The next stretch along the harbor is really fast, if you find the right line for the semi turns, that can gain a lot of time too. The last hairpin at the end is not as narrow as it looks, you can swing around it in one swift move.
The entrance to the finishing straight is also quiet fast. Stay left after the hairpin an find the right point to turn into it.
And remember - a lot of famous drivers have struggled with Monaco. And some didn't make it.

Schnizz58
14-10-2015, 23:07
Great information! Thanks for taking the time to post that for me.


Monaco is one of the hardest tracks to master, and it leaves no room for mistakes. There are a number of critical points that can cost - or gain - a lot of time. In turn 1 there is a curb in the middle of the road which stands for the inside of the corner, cutting it causes a penalty.
Yep, I think I've been cutting the track there without realizing it.


Try to stay on the right in turn 3, then you dont need to brake much and take the speed into the downhill straight to turn 4.
Good info right here! I think I've been taking that turn too slow.


4 is nasty, you need to find you brake point to take it properly.
I think I'm actually not too bad (relative to the rest of the circuit) on that turn. But yeah it took a while to find the braking point.


Next the hairpin is not too bad once you found the right way to swing around in it. Its easy to oversteer towards the left at its exit, try working with the steering sensivity setting to get more control. The next 2 turns are not so bad to handle.
I think I'm OK on this section too. At first I thought I was going too slow but I've watched a few videos and everybody goes slow until the exit of the turn before the tunnel. The whole thing is in 2nd gear until that point.


Then inside the tunnel is this slight bend, where it suddenly pushes you to the left side. Try to find a line approaching it on the right side. If you get it right you dont need to come off the throttle.
I found this out the hard way too. I can usually take it flat out now or at most a slight lift.


Well, then comes the hardest part, the downhill braking zone into the chicane. All I can say is, find the best braking point according to the car you drive, so you stay in control and on the right side. Its a real pest there.
Seems like all the important braking zones are downhill on this track. :) I haven't dialed in the brake point here yet. The 150 board is too early, the 100 is way too late. So somewhere just after the 150 is Goldilocks.


The next stretch along the harbor is really fast, if you find the right line for the semi turns, that can gain a lot of time too.
This section I think is my main problem. I'm going to start really focusing on getting this part right. A lot of times I miss the first right hander by the pool and spin into the tire wall on the left. The next one doesn't give me any real trouble but I may be going too slow there.


The last hairpin at the end is not as narrow as it looks, you can swing around it in one swift move.
Yeah, I discovered this also. My tendency is to turn in too early because I see the barrier bend to the right and think that's where the turn is but it's really a little further down. My issue on this one is the brake point. There's a crosswalk there that I use as a reference and I think the right point is just past that but too far past and it's into the wall ahead.


The entrance to the finishing straight is also quiet fast. Stay left after the hairpin an find the right point to turn into it.
Probably losing some good time here too. The entrance is hard to pick up visually.


And remember - a lot of famous drivers have struggled with Monaco. And some didn't make it.
:sorrow: I'm pretty hardheaded and I'm not going down without a fight.

VanquishedVantage
14-10-2015, 23:27
To me the hardest part of the course is Tabac-Piscine, you have squeeze through the Tabac corner then you have to run through a long left-hander then you do a quick snap to the left then right in the chicane in the Piscine corner (angles are a key factor IMO, a too wide entry and you could crash.) then there is another chicane but it is significantly slower.

chig88
15-10-2015, 09:58
To me the hardest part of the course is Tabac-Piscine, you have squeeze through the Tabac corner then you have to run through a long left-hander then you do a quick snap to the left then right in the chicane in the Piscine corner (angles are a key factor IMO, a too wide entry and you could crash.) then there is another chicane but it is significantly slower.

Seems to me like Tabac is one place where you can pick up a huge amount of time just by gaining confidence on entry. You can throw most cars in there a lot faster than you would expect - braking isn't even necessary in many cars (a lift off & a downshift will usually do it, although maybe not in the Formula cars).

Aim for the barrier to the left on entry - if you're going fast enough you will miss it & then it's all about keeping it out of the barrier to the right on exit. If you're sliding towards it avoid making massive corrections because you'll end up arse-first in the wall. Use small corrections & remember that clipping the Armco every now & again is to be expected around Monaco :).

VanquishedVantage
15-10-2015, 10:02
Seems to me like Tabac is one place where you can pick up a huge amount of time just by gaining confidence on entry. You can throw most cars in there a lot faster than you would expect - braking isn't even necessary in many cars (a lift off & a downshift will usually do it, although maybe not in the Formula cars).

Aim for the barrier to the left on entry - if you're going fast enough you will miss it & then it's all about keeping it out of the barrier to the right on exit. If you're sliding towards it avoid making massive corrections because you'll end up arse-first in the wall. Use small corrections & remember that clipping the Armco every now & again is to be expected around Monaco :).
Thanks for the tips!
I usually go full speed in the Piscine chicane which saves you valuable time, but there's a chance that the rear end can swing around and you can hit the left Armco on exit and crash.

Beatminister
15-10-2015, 12:18
:sorrow: I'm pretty hardheaded and I'm not going down without a fight.

That's the spirit! :)

I know Monaco ever since the first F1 sims, and I keep making mistakes. At least we don't break our neck when we mess up.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
15-10-2015, 12:22
Practice and setup are the important things for speed there because it's so tight: There's usually just one good line, and often the next step down from good is crashed. Practice should teach you where to be and how fast to be going, but it'll take a while. I learned on F1 2011, hours and hours and hours. Couldn't tell you whether it's better to start with slower cars. Setup should probably include high downforce, if possible, because the drag penalty is minimal and it helps braking and acceleration. The front should be as nimble as possible without destroying rear grip (getting there can be complicated).

Edit:


Seems to me like Tabac is one place where you can pick up a huge amount of time just by gaining confidence on entry. You can throw most cars in there a lot faster than you would expect - braking isn't even necessary in many cars (a lift off & a downshift will usually do it, although maybe not in the Formula cars).

Aim for the barrier to the left on entry - if you're going fast enough you will miss it & then it's all about keeping it out of the barrier to the right on exit. If you're sliding towards it avoid making massive corrections because you'll end up arse-first in the wall. Use small corrections & remember that clipping the Armco every now & again is to be expected around Monaco :).

I would phrase it something like "turn before you get there" rather than "aim for the barrier", but yeah. In fast open wheelers I just tap the brake, downshift, and turn. "Turn before you get there" applies to many corners on the circuit. Maybe not Casino, not in the sense I mean anyway, easy to hit the inside wall.

Schnizz58
15-10-2015, 14:47
Last night I dropped about 4-5 seconds off my time. I need to find another second or two before I'm where I want to be for a race. Also those 4-5 seconds are only on my best laps (i.e., the ones when I don't hit anything, lol). So I need a lot of practice laps to get more consistent.

I picked up time in the downhill run to the chicane. I'm braking much later there than before. I also picked up time in that fast left hander y'all are talking about (Tabac). I push harder there than I thought I could. I will try a lift & downshift there instead of braking to see if I can gain even more time. I don't think I can take Piscine flat. If I overcook that one I end up in the Armco or tire wall on the left, just as VV said. I brake when I see the orange paint on the right-side Armco but it's only a tap and a downshift then back on the throttle.

Setup-wise, I've done the obvious stuff like max out the aero and shorten the gears. I also softened up the front roll bar because I saw my front left tire lift off the ground on the hairpin. Anything else I should look at?

Also I'm activating the KERS on the way into the tunnel. Is that the best spot? I figure on a qualy lap, I can hit it at the start of the main straight and then again in the tunnel.

Oh, and that kerb on turn 1....lol. I drove through the turn slowly to try to find it and didn't see it. Next lap I stopped in front of the turn and still didn't see it. So I backed into the runoff area to get a better angle and ooohhhhhh there it is way over to the left. I never even saw it. So that changes things quite a bit!

Appreciate the help guys. I'm starting to get it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
15-10-2015, 17:50
I also picked up time in that fast left hander y'all are talking about (Tabac). I push harder there than I thought I could. I will try a lift & downshift there instead of braking to see if I can gain even more time. I don't think I can take Piscine flat. If I overcook that one I end up in the Armco or tire wall on the left, just as VV said. I brake when I see the orange paint on the right-side Armco but it's only a tap and a downshift then back on the throttle.
I haven't run FB so I don't know if you'd be going too fast to take Tabac without braking or not (ideally). But err on the side of accelerating or braking instead of coasting for minimum laptime. That is, if you are going too fast to corner without slowing down, braking is better than coasting because the deceleration will be faster (more time at higher speed). That's general though, you may know that already.


Setup-wise, I've done the obvious stuff like max out the aero and shorten the gears. I also softened up the front roll bar because I saw my front left tire lift off the ground on the hairpin. Anything else I should look at?
For max performance, everything of course. For a modest goal like pole vs medium AI, I'd play around with toe, positive and negative and zero on both ends. It'll very noticeably affect navigation at Monaco. And springs, try stiff and soft.


Also I'm activating the KERS on the way into the tunnel. Is that the best spot? I figure on a qualy lap, I can hit it at the start of the main straight and then again in the tunnel.In the FB I'm guessing up the hill (Beau Rivage) would be more efficient, but you could try both.

Haiden
15-10-2015, 17:55
Well, then comes the hardest part, the downhill braking zone into the chicane. All I can say is, find the best braking point according to the car you drive, so you stay in control and on the right side. Its a real pest there.

A two-stage method can also help here. It's been a while since I've run Azure, but in both PCars and F1 2015, I found that there was a point near the top of the hill where if I came off the throttle, and coasted for a split second I could brake a lot later.



Setup-wise, I've done the obvious stuff like max out the aero and shorten the gears. I also softened up the front roll bar because I saw my front left tire lift off the ground on the hairpin. Anything else I should look at?

Also, try increasing your deceleration slip differential. Doing so, might give you more stability under heavy braking, allowing you to brake later and harder going into Azures tighter corners.


I haven't run FB so I don't know if you'd be going too fast to take Tabac without braking or not (ideally). But err on the side of accelerating or braking instead of coasting for minimum laptime. That is, if you are going too fast to corner without slowing down, braking is better than coasting because the deceleration will be faster (more time at higher speed). That's general though, you may know that already.

I think you have to take duration into account as well. Coming off the throttle at 250 kph for three seconds, isn't going cost you as much time as braking hard for two seconds at the same speed. Two seconds of heavy braking will reduce your speed dramatically, and then you'll spend another couple seconds getting back up to speed. Coasting for three seconds, you'd still be above 200 kph, but the speed you bled might be give you the grip you needed. Basically, it's case by case, scenario by scenario, and it also depends on your driving style. :)

Schnizz58
15-10-2015, 18:27
I haven't run FB so I don't know if you'd be going too fast to take Tabac without braking or not (ideally). But err on the side of accelerating or braking instead of coasting for minimum laptime. That is, if you are going too fast to corner without slowing down, braking is better than coasting because the deceleration will be faster (more time at higher speed). That's general though, you may know that already.
Always wondered about that. Intuitively it seems like what you said would be correct but I often hear the advice to lift instead of brake.


In the FB I'm guessing up the hill (Beau Rivage) would be more efficient, but you could try both.
I hadn't thought of that because it doesn't seem long enough but the fact that it's uphill might offset that.


Also, try increasing your deceleration slip differential. Doing so, might give you more stability under heavy braking, allowing you to brake later and harder going into Azures tighter corners.
That's a good thought. It's pretty low right now for maneuverability, somewhere around 25%, iirc. Worth playing around with some. First, I think I need to get consistent with the setup I already have before I can even determine if a new setup helps or not.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
15-10-2015, 19:12
I think you have to take duration into account as well. Coming off the throttle at 250 kph for three seconds, isn't going cost you as much time as braking hard for two seconds at the same speed. Two seconds of heavy braking will reduce your speed dramatically, and then you'll spend another couple seconds getting back up to speed. Coasting for three seconds, you'd still be above 200 kph, but the speed you bled might be give you the grip you needed. Basically, it's case by case, scenario by scenario, and it also depends on your driving style. :)
The theory behind minimizing lap time would involve the same corner entry speed whether coasting or braking. In the case of Tabac, the last car I spent time with was the Lotus 78, and I would really just tap the brake followed immediately by a downshift. The safe alternative would be to lift off and wait some period of time, then downshift. The goal is the same speed when downshifting, and if you do it right, as in not slowing too much (or little), braking is faster. Exceptions can occur if braking unsettles the car making it bounce around a little on the springs and that reduces maximum safe cornering speed. I haven't noticed that at Tabac.

Haiden
15-10-2015, 19:38
The theory behind minimizing lap time would involve the same corner entry speed whether coasting or braking. In the case of Tabac, the last car I spent time with was the Lotus 78, and I would really just tap the brake followed immediately by a downshift. The safe alternative would be to lift off and wait some period of time, then downshift. The goal is the same speed when downshifting, and if you do it right, as in not slowing too much (or little), braking is faster. Exceptions can occur if braking unsettles the car making it bounce around a little on the springs and that reduces maximum safe cornering speed. I haven't noticed that at Tabac.

Not disagreeing, just don't think it applies across the board. It really depends on how much speed you're trying to bleed off and how quickly.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
15-10-2015, 19:45
Not disagreeing, just don't think it applies across the board. It really depends on how much speed you're trying to bleed off and how quickly.

If immediately downshifting wouldn't blow the engine or send you into the wall, that's a fine option. Or if the coast time would be so small that it wouldn't be worth the simple added risk coming from added complexity of action, as in more things could theoretically go wrong because you're doing more. Otherwise the more time at full throttle the better. When chasing time of course. In a race you may not want to be going as fast as possible.

Pappa_Stig
15-10-2015, 23:50
Last night I dropped about 4-5 seconds off my time. I need to find another second or two before I'm where I want to be for a race. Also those 4-5 seconds are only on my best laps (i.e., the ones when I don't hit anything, lol). So I need a lot of practice laps to get more consistent.

I picked up time in the downhill run to the chicane. I'm braking much later there than before. I also picked up time in that fast left hander y'all are talking about (Tabac). I push harder there than I thought I could. I will try a lift & downshift there instead of braking to see if I can gain even more time. I don't think I can take Piscine flat. If I overcook that one I end up in the Armco or tire wall on the left, just as VV said. I brake when I see the orange paint on the right-side Armco but it's only a tap and a downshift then back on the throttle.

Setup-wise, I've done the obvious stuff like max out the aero and shorten the gears. I also softened up the front roll bar because I saw my front left tire lift off the ground on the hairpin. Anything else I should look at?

Also I'm activating the KERS on the way into the tunnel. Is that the best spot? I figure on a qualy lap, I can hit it at the start of the main straight and then again in the tunnel.

Oh, and that kerb on turn 1....lol. I drove through the turn slowly to try to find it and didn't see it. Next lap I stopped in front of the turn and still didn't see it. So I backed into the runoff area to get a better angle and ooohhhhhh there it is way over to the left. I never even saw it. So that changes things quite a bit!

Appreciate the help guys. I'm starting to get it.


Using the KERS or push to pass or whatever it's called in the FB through the tunnel is what I did. As you say, you can activate it for the straight before you start your flying lap, and then again in the tunnel. Those are your two longest full throttle moments in the lap.

Also, remember that these cars are very aero dependent at circuits like this where you have your downforce cranked up. Therefore, if you're brave enough to push a little harder through the faster turns, the downforce will be higher, and you'll have more grip. It's one of those things where going slower will give you less grip in a lot of turns. Particularly around the swimming pool complex. Also, you can put a lot of pressure on the brakes initially, due to the downforce pushing the tyres into the surface, but just remember to progressively lift off the brakes as you get deeper into the braking zone. As you lose speed, you're losing downforce too, so you'll lock up much easier toward the end of the braking zone.

I was very fast in FB at Monaco in career, but good luck with the AI, they're suicidal at that track! Trust me, putting the car on pole doesn't help, it just means you'll be able to survive until you have to start lapping cars lol. They're just as crazy when they're being lapped.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
16-10-2015, 03:08
I did a 1:21.908 in time trial mode with this setup, using KERS before the starting line and again up the hill (after it reloaded). I didn't perfect it, but it's stable and it turns. The tires start to overheat during the lap, and I closed the radiator for TT (don't think that would work in career). It bottoms out on the start/finish straight but it seems ok with it. Assists off.

Tires auto/1.25/1.23/1.26/1.25. Brakes 84/58/20. Downforce 11/11. Steering 9.9:1. Caster 5.4. Camber -1.7F/-0.5R. Toe 0/0. Ride height 40/55. Springs 100/80. Swaybars 0/0. Bump stops 5/5. Slow bump 6000/4950. Fast bump 2400/1300. Slow rebound 5750/8225. Fast rebound 3300/2000. Diff 0/50/30/50. Radiator 0 (TT only). Final drive 4.64. Gears 3.72/3.13/2.77/2.45/2.30/2.14. Brake mapping 0.