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View Full Version : This person talks a lot of sense about online play....



TheBaldReverend
19-10-2015, 13:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-sbypLOjZM

To be honest, the points he raises in the video make so much sense and appear obvious but had never crossed my mind.

SMS, I know the chances of implementing a system like this is probably unrealistic but it's got to be food for thought.

Montana.BE
19-10-2015, 18:22
That would be great, a simple and effective way to differ between pro and amateur. I'm an amateur myself, and I prefer racing with people up to my own level.

balderz002
19-10-2015, 20:06
It also means the people who show up for races, want to be there, and aren't just thrown in to wreck everyone else's race.

Gravit8
19-10-2015, 23:29
Been saying it forever.
Scheduled heat races and ladder tourneys. Using lap times as a placement tool. So simple.
Its not even innovative or anything. It's just common sense.

But requires dedicated servers so. We will likely never see it on anything but Iracing IMO.
Do the detriment of these other could be contenders.
They're pulling monthly memberships while the rest of you concentrate on bug riddled single player so everyone can feel like they are the most amazing pilot ever.

And we all know how easy it is to rent a single person experience for practically free.

bcredeur97
20-10-2015, 02:11
this is very interesting. I wanted to get into iracing but subscription models always put me off. But I didn't know the multiplayer was like this... it's really compelling.


In pCars the only way to get around the crazies is to join a league and hope your skill is good enough to match all of them (Luckily the league I found is). But a huge downside is having to wait for every other week to simply race... practicing alone does get old sometimes.

poet
20-10-2015, 10:05
They're pulling monthly memberships

.

From max 150,000 users (since it's beginning), any dev would be out of their mind to try add iRacing components to their game just to please what 50,000 current players max?
The only way to make it work is the way they've done it, with a very expensive subscription service.

Still, amazes me.
If Iracing is so good, why aren't more people playing it instead of insisting that every other sim/game does the exact same things that iRacing does that only appeals to a few dozen thousand players.....
Madness.

RomKnight
20-10-2015, 11:31
Add the replays and spectator mode for streaming... and that's a very nice wrap indeed wrt MP. But there's no news here BTW. This and ovals is what iR ALWAYS had better than the rest even if i'm not that fond of the sr/ir system...

pCARS replays and spectator mode do leave something to be desired. And I hear from those who make videos that the replays are seriously flawed when it comes to save an MP race.

Simple things like different skins, cars not showing, impacts not seen and wrt to spectator, not all cams are allowed.

Then it is the sound always stuttering and leaves with a hud that works, not everything cluttering the screen with random "numbers". And the track with live car positions in the middle of the screen taking visibility away... ehehehe at least let us move it.

annoying little things that kind ruin the whole experience if you ask me.

peevee88
20-10-2015, 11:47
Every sim developer (except iRacing of course) are missing a trick by not copying or mimicking the iRacing MP system and perhaps that's why MP in rF2, GSCE, pCars and even AC lobbies are virtually deserted and absolutely no fun unless you are in a well organised league.
Maybe the solution is a third party MP portal catering for all these sims by providing the iRacing style MP system...

poet
20-10-2015, 12:05
Every sim developer (except iRacing of course) are missing a trick by not copying or mimicking the iRacing MP system and perhaps that's why MP in rF2, GSCE, pCars and even AC lobbies are virtually deserted and absolutely no fun unless you are in a well organised league.
Maybe the solution is a third party MP portal catering for all these sims by providing the iRacing style MP system...

But again, it's a business model that appeals to 50,000 users max and iRacing has all of those people signed up already.

Any competitor would likely at best pull in what? half of them? (many iRacing subbers love it and are unlikely to leave), meaning what 25,000 players?

Cost of a even half decent modern gaming title circa $5million or so.

$5m between 25000 users is a dev cost (not running costs or profit) is $200 each. Add running costs and profit and you're likely talking $400 cost for each users, with another $200 per year.

There's a good reason iRacing is the only title doing iRacing. :)

F2kSel
20-10-2015, 13:27
I won't even pay for rF2 online as I don't want to pay for something I may not use even if it's only a few coppers.
I will pay for some DLC as unlike iRacing I can use it when I want for as long as I like.

A lot of people don't have a life where they can enter a scheduled race, I've done my share of league racing as well and don't want to go down that route either as it still takes commitment if you want to do it right. Also pCars isn't stable enough it can take an hour to even get it to work on some tracks some days.

What works for some doesn't work for everyone and the current system of tuning up and racing isn't working either due to the lack of thought on the MP side.

Raven403
20-10-2015, 13:33
As was already said, Its a great system and allows for mostly great evenly matched racing, but It would require Dedicated servers, and it would most likely alienate casual players, further limiting the marketability of the game on Consoles. Im sure its something that can be done on PC but not likely to happen. However, having a UI and League support in the MP section of the game could go a long way to matching people up better than the game currently does. Thinking about the Clubs setup in FM4 especially, something similar to that would probably help a great deal.

You already have a Thread dedicated to Leagues and organizing like-minded people to race together, some sort of UI should be in the game that allows people to do that through the game, instead of on the forum, you would probably run into more people who may not be on the forum as well. All of this is just thoughts because restructuring the MP for PCars 1 is not gonna happen but, maybe Pcars2 who knows.

Gavin Thomas
20-10-2015, 13:44
Every race I've had on iRacing as been good and close!

I'd say their ranking system and set times is by far the best option for decent racing out there. It's a shame that other dev's think leaving it all random works.

NutsMammoth
20-10-2015, 14:01
That would be great, a simple and effective way to differ between pro and amateur. I'm an amateur myself, and I prefer racing with people up to my own level.

I agree with a ranking system following the driver's statistics for a better online experience.
This would be a good thing for everyone even for high skilled drivers.
Some high skilled drivers must be very bored and frustrated during a race with average/novice drivers.
Alone on the track because the other drivers are too slow.
And on the other hand, novice drivers can have some great moments by racing together.
But this ranking system can be optionnal when hosting a race.
So everyone will free to host/join a lobby using the ranking system or not.

ElectricBlues85
20-10-2015, 14:18
I love the idea of iRacing style multiplayer but it no doubt has it's own set of issues.

I've already spent a bunch of money on PS4 and accessories, more still on Mac hardware and accessories for music. I'm afraid I can't justify dropping a few ŁK on a PC gaming rig so I'll have to make do with the PCars setup.

It would be nice to see some form of ranked lobby system in Pcars 2 - I'm still hopeful on that one :)

Gravit8
20-10-2015, 21:17
But again, it's a business model that appeals to 50,000 users max and iRacing has all of those people signed up already.

Any competitor would likely at best pull in what? half of them? (many iRacing subbers love it and are unlikely to leave), meaning what 25,000 players?

Cost of a even half decent modern gaming title circa $5million or so.

$5m between 25000 users is a dev cost (not running costs or profit) is $200 each. Add running costs and profit and you're likely talking $400 cost for each users, with another $200 per year.

There's a good reason iRacing is the only title doing iRacing. :)


Ummmmm. Just no. No no no no no no no.
There are 60 people playing this game online at any one time. That's not enough to even attempt online.
The other half or more are in private leagues.
And there are hundreds upon hundreds of posts about people hate this multi player setup.
There's more people here to complain than participate.
This mp sucks and you are so off.
People would participate if it were better.
They are willing to pay when it is. And iracings user base is not the end of the potential user base. So many people don't PC. I could Iracing, but I don't cause it's a serious investment in time and money. Tons like me out there that still want to race something.
People are ditching this game to play forza, even though forza is a shallower sim Cade.
Because multi player works in that game consistently and draws people in.

rotorrian
21-10-2015, 08:16
I think a great idea would be to use a rank based of the Driver Network Profile (DNP) which takes into account.

Race Raced
Races Completed
Races Disconnected
Times Penalised
Races DQ
Races made heavy contact in first lap
Reports of Contact from Drivers (Multiplied by their DNP rank)
Heavy Contact Made (with 100% throttle)

Then you can set a Minimum DNP value to your race:

eg. No restriction = Free for all - race at your own risk.

0-1000 = Noobs, Learners & people from Spain
0-2000 = Kids who get a bit excited and don't understand how apexes work + Italians
0-3000 = Average
0-4000 = Skilled Racers
0-5000 = League Racers

Obviously host can invite who they wabt into a room but for matchmaking something like this would be great.

NutsMammoth
21-10-2015, 11:32
I think a great idea would be to use a rank based of the Driver Network Profile (DNP) which takes into account.

Race Raced
Races Completed
Races Disconnected
Times Penalised
Races DQ
Races made heavy contact in first lap
Reports of Contact from Drivers (Multiplied by their DNP rank)
Heavy Contact Made (with 100% throttle)

Then you can set a Minimum DNP value to your race:

eg. No restriction = Free for all - race at your own risk.

0-1000 = Noobs, Learners & people from Spain
0-2000 = Kids who get a bit excited and don't understand how apexes work + Italians
0-3000 = Average
0-4000 = Skilled Racers
0-5000 = League Racers

Obviously host can invite who they wabt into a room but for matchmaking something like this would be great.

I think that was planned from the beginning (Ranking System with Online Performance + Online Reputation).

Except that the Online Reputation still not working:

However on the official web site: http://www.projectcarsgame.com/online.html

ONLINE PERFORMANCE & REPUTATION

Your Driver Network Profile tracks many stats relating to your Experience, Focus, and Affinity.
But it also tracks your Online Performance and Reputation...

The number of races entered vs the number completed
Breakdown of placement in those races
Pole positions achieved in online qualifying sessions
Average finishing position and average qualifying position
The number of races where you incurred no penalties
And the number of races where you were disqualified

All this information is then used to ensure you find players of similar skill and conduct.
Continually collide with other drivers and you'll slowly make acquaintances with others of similar destructive tendencies.
Drive with good sportsmanlike conduct and you'll be enjoying the company of other refined opponents.

So play fair, be successful, and greatness awaits.

From listening and seeing how our WMD community have played Project CARS throughout development, and from seeing how racing fans play other titles out there,
we hope that all these features listed go a long way in ensuring Project CARS' online play is not only authentic and intense but also seamless and efficient.

Gravit8
21-10-2015, 11:57
I think a great idea would be to use a rank based of the Driver Network Profile (DNP) which takes into account.

Race Raced
Races Completed
Races Disconnected
Times Penalised
Races DQ
Races made heavy contact in first lap
Reports of Contact from Drivers (Multiplied by their DNP rank)
Heavy Contact Made (with 100% throttle)

Then you can set a Minimum DNP value to your race:

eg. No restriction = Free for all - race at your own risk.

0-1000 = Noobs, Learners & people from Spain
0-2000 = Kids who get a bit excited and don't understand how apexes work + Italians
0-3000 = Average
0-4000 = Skilled Racers
0-5000 = League Racers

Obviously host can invite who they wabt into a room but for matchmaking something like this would be great.

Dude. You forgot Brazil.
Where are they in your ranking system?

ex_
22-10-2015, 19:27
Online racing is often best done by organized leagues, who can take the "rules" of the game and make then fit with some workarounds etc. Some things need to be policed by individuals, using the "honor" system. But, at the end of the day, if there's a way to disallow someone from joining your leagues events if they are not playing fairly, that is a good incentive to cooperate with rules.

With that in mind, what could pCARS event organizers do to emulate some of what the Op is saying about iRacing (some good points, BTW) without actually having SMS implement a mandatory systme just like it?

I am not very familiar with online in this game yet, so excuse some ignorance...

If we could set up a server, or set of servers, that are each lablled "League X division 1", "League X division 2" and so on, then only publish the password for those servers to those who are in your league, then you wouldn't have randoms joining, but could also have a place for league members to gather, and ask that for the real races, people sort themselves according to the rules of the league, into the various division rooms.

If the room holds, say 15 ppl, and you only have 12 sign up for the event, then everyone should hopefully be smart enough to know that only one room is necessary. If it goes up to 45 ppl, then you'd need three full rooms.

It would certainly take some time and effort to organize, but it is also probalby the most realistic approach to getting some of the benefits you guys are looking for.

redruMKO
22-10-2015, 20:54
Every race I've had on iRacing as been good and close!

I'd say their ranking system and set times is by far the best option for decent racing out there. It's a shame that other dev's think leaving it all random works.

Yeah, its like some other areas of this game with a ton of options all left at random settings.

...here's an idea... Limit the number of cars in multiplayer races globally. A race with only 4 people can be really rewarding, and at some point when there are enough players online this could slowly increase.

...and for precedent, look at CS:GO successfully reducing players-per-server down to 1O from what was often 25+ players

ONT
23-10-2015, 01:33
Were saying during dev period, look at iRacing and copy paste everything....except the pricing model :cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtX0uiLDt1c

rotorrian
23-10-2015, 01:46
Sorry, Brazil produced the late, great Aryton Senna who I would rank as the best driver of all time.

So nothing but love for Brazil.

(P.S. I don't mine Spain or Italy either but the do tend to drive alot more aggressily than they should. Or maybe with the time difference with Australia its after school game time ?)


Dude. You forgot Brazil.
Where are they in your ranking system?

poet
23-10-2015, 07:51
Were saying during dev period, look at iRacing and copy paste everything....except the pricing model :cool:




Thank Gabe they ignored you! :)

Gravit8
23-10-2015, 21:41
Sorry, Brazil produced the late, great Aryton Senna who I would rank as the best driver of all time.

So nothing but love for Brazil.

(P.S. I don't mine Spain or Italy either but the do tend to drive alot more aggressily than they should. Or maybe with the time difference with Australia its after school game time ?)

Spaniards, Italians and brazilians always seem to be driving in anger. Or out to get you. But I'm American, so........
The French get an honorable mention in this category.
5o/50 chance with them.
;)

Incrediclint
24-10-2015, 09:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-sbypLOjZM

To be honest, the points he raises in the video make so much sense and appear obvious but had never crossed my mind.

SMS, I know the chances of implementing a system like this is probably unrealistic but it's got to be food for thought.

The video pegs the exact reason that anytime I race online I do it in iRacing. I really wish every other sim would adopt the way iRacing does it. The moment I discovered iRacing and read up on it's license/safety rating system I signed up after having completely abandoned online racing for years. Sure there are leagues you can join but I much prefer racing a wide range of people on a regular basis. I've only had a handful of bad races due to horrible drivers or wreckers on iRacing in the 4 years since I joined, which is saying something considering how bad online racing is in every other game/sim out there.