PDA

View Full Version : Mz ONLY FFB ?



redruMKO
19-10-2015, 15:01
I keep reading that real cars don't feedback the same info that we get in games. Then I found someone saying that actually 'Mz' is the only force that should really be transmitted to the wheel. [sorry, forgot who said it]

So does anyone race it like this?

I tried the M3 GT, and a couple of others. Just by turning the Fx Fy and Fz down to zero for each cars FFB.

It feels 'simpler' in some way to me... but I actually quite like it. I think.

For example there seems to be very little "digga-digga-digga" from kerbs... but if you have a loud sub-woofer then you still get that, just not through your wheel.

RomKnight
19-10-2015, 15:04
Pure Mz is the favourite of some, yes.

Unfortunately we also only have the ffb wheel (well, most of us) to feel the car and, personally, I think we need a bit more.

But it is a matter of taste and one can also adapt really.

ex_
19-10-2015, 16:55
I just resolved to turning down Mz almost all the way, because with some of the other settings I have in relative adjust area, it seemed a bit too severe. If a car is hard to drive and the reason seems to be that when you turn the wheel, the feeling goes out of it, this is the cause.

In other words, some FFB setups will likely yield way too much Mz, while others may not yield much at all. So, having the slider is very good (it should just be fixed to the game, not individual cars. The devs should balance the cars)

Kroegtijgertje
19-10-2015, 17:02
I don't really understand the people that are obsessed with simulating their driving experience.
Most of them do have a good quality wheel, but almost none of them experience real G-forces while playing their favorite sim.
And yet they still are obsessed with the feel through the wheel.

I want my wheel to give me as much info as possible, not caring if it's realistic.
I'm playing on a computer, that will never be the same as driving a real car!!

RomKnight
19-10-2015, 17:09
The devs should balance the cars)


Or not. If a car is crap, it should feel like crap and, just like in tuning, some changes produce better response that should translate to the FFB.

Then you have the FFB dials to fine tune the experience because, well, our racing equipment is just that, to get us a bit of immersion but still it is not real life and as such, you may (depending on the sim) have ways to get the best out of your rig.

redruMKO
19-10-2015, 20:38
I don't really understand the people that are obsessed with simulating their driving experience.
Most of them do have a good quality wheel, but almost none of them experience real G-forces while playing their favorite sim.
And yet they still are obsessed with the feel through the wheel.

I want my wheel to give me as much info as possible, not caring if it's realistic.
I'm playing on a computer, that will never be the same as driving a real car!!

I like what you're saying, but i'm one of those obsessed ones... and if everyone believed your final line, no one would develop sims at all, right?

Sorry if thats a bit confrontational. I do agree with your sentiment, but after playing a lot with just Mz FFB, it seems rich enough to me.

One analogy is that we would be just as fast using black-and-white screens, but everyone prefers the extra 'depth' that colour gives, at no huge extra cost. In line with this, I was trying to get the basic Mz FFB working well, and then blend back a small amount of one or more of the other F's [or even Sop etc]. But as I said, with a sub to amplify kerb rumble, and good camera/screen to 'feel' the back of the car, I don't feel like I am missing anything.

Schnizz58
19-10-2015, 21:15
I like what you're saying, but i'm one of those obsessed ones... and if everyone believed your final line, no one would develop sims at all, right?
Wrong. It's a goal to be as realistic as possible while still recognizing that you'll never achieve 100% realism.


One analogy is that we would be just as fast using black-and-white screens, but everyone prefers the extra 'depth' that colour gives, at no huge extra cost.
I disagree with this too. Color can allow you to pick up key marks sooner and thus be more effective. Color is information and I don't know why anyone would discard information.

redruMKO
19-10-2015, 22:11
Really? Like really, really? -Not just for the sake of arguing.

Time trail-ing, when you are down to shaving off thousandths, I can't imagine a b&w screen could make any difference at all to my times, although I will admit I havent tried it.

Doing a rally stage or even a really long circuit maybe there is something, in the recognition of bends etc, but I really stand by this. Take Brands Hatch Indy for example.... there is no way colour makes me faster there.

Schnizz58
19-10-2015, 22:12
Yes really. But if you don't want to believe it, I can't make you. Just providing more information and if you want to discard that too, be my guest.

diesel97
19-10-2015, 22:28
Yes really. But if you don't want to believe it, I can't make you. Just providing more information and if you want to discard that too, be my guest.

Do you have a link for any of this stuff you speak ? Or do we just take that what ever you say is the truth.

I think you would get more FINE detail in black and white ,but this is just my opinion

Schnizz58
19-10-2015, 22:34
Do you have a link for any of this stuff you speak ? Or do we just take that what ever you say is the truth.

I think you would get more FINE detail in black and white ,but this is just my opinion
No I don't have a link for my opinion. You can do with it what you wish.

If the resolution is the same, you get more information in color. That isn't my opinion. However you'd possibly get more contrast in B&W.

diesel97
19-10-2015, 22:38
No I don't have a link for my opinion. You can do with it what you wish.
If the resolution is the same, you get more information in color That isn't my .opinion.

So now you want it both ways i see

STEELJOCKEY
19-10-2015, 22:38
Both red and blue show up as black in a black and white only world. So if you are looking for a red mark as opposed to a blue mark nearby for a brake marker, in black and white you will be blind as to which one it is. The more info available the better, so colour is better than black and white, a full motion sim better than just a sim, a wheel is better than a mouse, and real will always be best - but I just can't afford the real :sorrow:

Schnizz58
19-10-2015, 22:42
So now you want it both ways i see
Sure

STEELJOCKEY
19-10-2015, 22:48
So now you want it both ways i see


Sure

More is always better

SUBGTRACER
19-10-2015, 22:50
So confusing I thought Mz just lightened or made the wheel heavier ?

Schnizz58
19-10-2015, 22:56
So confusing I thought Mz just lightened or made the wheel heavier ?
I believe that Mz is the torque caused by the caster of the steering linkage. It's the torque that tries to center the wheel when you let go. Not 100% sure so could be wrong about that.

SUBGTRACER
19-10-2015, 23:03
I believe that Mz is the torque caused by the caster of the steering linkage. It's the torque that tries to center the wheel when you let go. Not 100% sure so could be wrong about that.

Thanks bud , Yep I am on the right track .... thank god :)

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
19-10-2015, 23:55
I believe Mz also includes the friction resistance of twisting the tire against the road.

Flihp
20-10-2015, 00:12
To me MZ feels like a pendulum,, lower yields a smaller pendulum, higher yields a higher pendulum in chicanes, zig zags situation, just a weird massive L/R weight distribution non linear effect when set high.

SUBGTRACER
20-10-2015, 00:18
To me MZ feels like a pendulum,, lower yields a smaller pendulum, higher yields a higher pendulum in chicanes, zig zags situation, just a weird massive L/R weight distribution non linear effect when set high.


I agree when I lower it which I do for most cars it feels way more intuitive .

ex_
20-10-2015, 00:33
Or not. If a car is crap, it should feel like crap and, just like in tuning, some changes produce better response that should translate to the FFB.

Then you have the FFB dials to fine tune the experience because, well, our racing equipment is just that, to get us a bit of immersion but still it is not real life and as such, you may (depending on the sim) have ways to get the best out of your rig.

truth, but not what I was trying to get at...

If one person likes, say, in this example, more M(z) than others, turning up M(z) in a global setting should have a correct proportional effect on all cars. Sure some cars are supposed to feel different (for various reasons), that's why I am asking for balancing. The people who are making the digital cars should be determining what the cars feel like, and then giving you global settings to change whether you personally like more of this, less of that. Sometimes the balance will be wrong, but that is a small problem compared the huge one we have now. Devs could always continue tweaking the balance between cars tactile feeling, but players cannot devote themselves to doing nothing but trying to figure out the FFB for six months...

redruMKO
20-10-2015, 01:29
Players shouldn't devote themselves to it for six months, but thats pretty much exactly what I've done. ;-] It was kind of like someone dumping a baby on my doorstep... i couldn't possibly not help that little dude.

GrimeyDog
21-10-2015, 11:27
MZ = Wheel Centering Force...Thats all it is.
on Race Cars LMP1, GT3 etc High MZ Feels Good because you want Tight Responsive Steering/Wheel Center... But on a 70's Muscle Car High MZ Feels Wrong because those cars Have Loose Sloppy Steering and alot of Body Roll... Setting the MZ too high on that type of Car will make you over steer.
You Have to Balance the MZ for the Type of car your Racing.

300+ Hours...I've been Tweeking PCars FFB since it Relesed... I have it pretty much sorted out.... The Relative and the Scoop Settings are Most inportant to getting Good Balanced FFB and the in car FFB Settings just + or - what you want to feel most in the car your Racing.

"Relative adjust" Adds or Bleeds off Torgue to the wheel to Change the wheel weight and Create Road, Curb, Weight Transfer feel etc.

"Scoop" Controls the Slope of the FFB Forces Shallow/Dull
Steep/Harsh .... The top Scoop setting Deals with Stronger Forces and the Bottom # Controls the Weaker Forces.

RomKnight
21-10-2015, 11:34
I believe Mz also includes the friction resistance of twisting the tire against the road.

That would be Fz.

redruMKO
21-10-2015, 12:56
I'm only at about 2OO hours. So still just learning...

Wheel centering force sounds good... that is what I heard before, but i'm finding it hard to process, having now driven lots of cars on 1OO Mz and nothing else.

There is not nearly enough 'centering'. Especially on the 125 Kart. If anything it feels like the opposite of centering is happening on that 'car'.

Roger Prynne
21-10-2015, 13:30
That would be Fz.

Fz is Vertical Load.

220620

Haiden
21-10-2015, 14:35
Wrong. It's a goal to be as realistic as possible while still recognizing that you'll never achieve 100% realism.


I disagree with this too. Color can allow you to pick up key marks sooner and thus be more effective. Color is information and I don't know why anyone would discard information.

Exactly.


Really? Like really, really? -Not just for the sake of arguing.

Time trail-ing, when you are down to shaving off thousandths, I can't imagine a b&w screen could make any difference at all to my times, although I will admit I havent tried it.

Doing a rally stage or even a really long circuit maybe there is something, in the recognition of bends etc, but I really stand by this. Take Brands Hatch Indy for example.... there is no way colour makes me faster there.

The more clear differentiation between the elements on the screen. The easier it is for your brain to recognize patterns. There's a reason all stop signs and stop lights are red, and green is associated with go. The marker elements on a track are colored for easier pattern recognition, allowing you to focus on other things while still being able to recognize and register supplemental information, by pattern recognition. Your brain is also subconsciously registering and reading the subtle differences in background patterns--tree, buildings, etc.--and using them to help establish your track position. Color adds depths. Depth changes how you perceive things. It's just not something you're consciously aware of. An example of this would be how you sometimes find you're a little off on your braking points when you practice in clear weather, and then drive the same track in fog, late afternoon, or even overcast. The change in lighting, changes the overall look of the track and some of the patterns your brain has gotten used to using are no longer the same. Yes, you adjust quickly, but the visual changes can make a significant difference. Now, could you drive with a black and white screen? Sure. You could also steer with your foot if you wanted to, doesn't make it a good idea, though. :)

redruMKO
21-10-2015, 15:42
I'm just amazed at you guys wanting to argue against something i was just using as an analogy.

But since you do, I have been specific. Time trial around brands hatch indy. I am certain that colour would not make any difference to my lap times.

You really still do?

Schnizz58
21-10-2015, 15:44
I'm not saying it makes my lap times better. I'm saying that I'm unwilling to throw away information.

I'll give you a specific example where I think it would help. At Monaco, on turn 1 there is a kerb in the middle of the street that defines the track limit. To the right of this kerb is the extension of the pit lane exit so you have to stay to the left of it. It's really hard to pick up visually as you're hurtling down the straight but you can usually get a flash of red to know where to aim the car. If that was in monochrome, it would be really tough to see that kerb.

ex_
21-10-2015, 15:54
while people characterize M(z) as centering force, that doesn't really explain in enough detail. What I notice when I have it higher, and disappears almost entirely when I turn it down, is that I am more able to feel the wheels going past their contact patch when turning the steering wheel. When we turn, the wheels would like to stay flat, and we would like them to, too! But, as we know, the changing dynamic forces will cause the wheels to want to roll onto their sides. M(z) helps you feel this threshold and avoid it when necessary. However, some settings in the GLobal FFB area can cause M(z) to be far too poweful compared to other forces. Therefore, with my current FFB settings, I need to turn down my M(z) almost entirely, but the effect is still there at the level I'd expect.

Sankyo
21-10-2015, 16:16
That would be Fz.


Fz is Vertical Load.

220620

Yeah, it's Fy although Mz is also in there as Mz will drop to zero when the front tyres lose lateral grip (as then there will be no force anymore to rotate the tyre back to center).

redruMKO
22-10-2015, 18:51
Yeah, it's Fy although Mz is also in there as Mz will drop to zero when the front tyres lose lateral grip (as then there will be no force anymore to rotate the tyre back to center).

Surprised that no-one has replied who actually uses a setup like this.

From my testing I found some Fy worked well with the Mz. And then from your comment Remco, I've turned them around, so I am now Fy=1OO Mz=4O, both smoothing at 1O, everything else at zero.

I really like it. And you can put a tiny amount of Fx [4 ish] back in if you want to feel kerbs etc.

Full setup is at the end of the G29 thread... http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35635-G29-Discussions-Plus-Support-and-Settings/page55

redruMKO
03-11-2015, 18:16
Still happy with my Fy and Mz here....

..turns out I didnt need any of that Fx, so it's 'pure' again now.

..from default, it's basically full Fy with half the amount of Mz, and needs a tiny amount of smoothing, hence I have to double the values and then halve the overall Master Scale to compensate.
Master Scale [Halve and round up if necessary]
Fx Scale - O.O1 --->Smoothing - O.O
Fy Scale - 2OO.OO -Smoothing - 1O.O
Fz Scale - O.O1 --->Smoothing - O.O
Mz Scale - 1OO.O1 -Smoothing - 1O.O
Plus use Jacks Arm Angle, or one click below it.

copes24
03-11-2015, 21:35
I'm liking MZ with a little bit of SoP Diff and nothing else.

redruMKO
07-11-2015, 14:09
YES! good call Sir Copes24.

I'm still experimenting, but using SoP Diff instead of Fy seemed better to me too [on some cars].

But now I've found I can use Mz ONLY, but the Arm Angle becomes super-critical to the feel, I guess the first time I tried Mz only, the arm was wrong. [or some of my globals have changed enough to accommodate it now]

...will post some more helpful info as soon as I have it... and as I said at the start, I'd love any feedback from people using simple-FFB themselves.