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IJOJOI
21-10-2015, 19:42
Hi guys!


I want to know, what others think about this topic specifically, since it get's lost in the Tyre Physics thread easily. :)

I drove a 1M Coupe again with Michelin Pilot Cup tyres today, and what shall I say....
The real thing is a F**** beast :P but quite different to our car...
I was even able to drift around in the parking lot :encouragement:

I mentioned this already during development of pCars like one year ago, so this is probably my last "try"

Our street tyres, especially the Masculin ones are WAY too good.

Points I want to raise:
1.) Why are the Masculin All weather tyres the snappiest ones since these should be most roadlike?!
2.) The 1M is WAY to pointy, there is nerly no understeer on any of the tyres offered.
3.) Getting into, and maintaining a drift is very difficult. It's very hard to light up the tyres.
4.) You get a heavy tank slapper with the All weather tyres WHY?

Let's move on to the Ruf RGT-8 and the Faretti tyres.
It's instantly a big step ahead of the Masculin ones, but:
1.) It's still strange to get sideways.
2.) Again the All Weather Tyres are less progressive than the others (:confused:)
3.) I am aware of the fact, that this car has a open dif, but you dont even have to coutersteer very often....

All in all, I think our Roadtyres are quite a bit too much longitudinal grip.
Be aware, that I have played pCars for 700h now, and I know, that the tyres were quite a bit better one during development :P

Tell me what you think :D

Best Regards
IJOJOI

John Hargreaves
21-10-2015, 19:56
I think that a lot of the behaviour is related to the default setups as much as the tyres. Even with my limited knowledge, I have managed to turn the 1M into a drifty, chuckable beastie that behaves totally different to how it's delivered in the game.

Krus Control
21-10-2015, 19:57
In PCARS road cars generally get much more grip than they do IRL. I can't say for sure with every class but road cars at least get just mountains of grip. I think that there should be an option to use the Dunloc tires that are available on the McLaren F1 and Yellowbird. These tires exhibit a more realistic grip level and would be great for drifting cars like the BMW 1M and the upcoming GT86.

IJOJOI
21-10-2015, 20:07
I think that a lot of the behaviour is related to the default setups as much as the tyres. Even with my limited knowledge, I have managed to turn the 1M into a drifty, chuckable beastie that behaves totally different to how it's delivered in the game.

Just to add, I already tried quite a lot of different setups..
Even the OEM Setup by Jussi and others on the Database...

Even though it gets better, it's nowhere near the real thing.
It hurts me to say that AC's 1M is quite a bit closer. :(

John Hargreaves
21-10-2015, 20:25
I'll give it a go

bmanic
21-10-2015, 20:53
In PCARS road cars generally get much more grip than they do IRL. I can't say for sure with every class but road cars at least get just mountains of grip. I think that there should be an option to use the Dunloc tires that are available on the McLaren F1 and Yellowbird. These tires exhibit a more realistic grip level and would be great for drifting cars like the BMW 1M and the upcoming GT86.

I disagree. I think you confuse grip with grip falloff. The actual peak grip of the tire, that is the absolute most grip you can have, seems pretty much spot on. The G's you can pull are almost identical to the figures published by autosport and other magazines.

What I do agree with you is that there is way too little grip falloff, or the actual curvature of the falloff, or the flash heating is off. This means that once you are actually sliding heavily, there is too much grip. This is probably also what makes the tires harder to drift than hey should be (mainly meaning the ability to maintain a drift at moderate angles and throttle pinned).

pCars is kind of the exact opposite to all the other simulators where they have too little progressive grip and no real heat simulation which gives them the weird "there's no tire feel while over the threshold" kind of driving, ala iRacing and especially Assetto Corsa (though it got much MUCH better in AC now with the latest 1.3 patch).

I'm also disagreeing with IJOJOI about the understeer bit.. though I have not driven the BMW 1M but I have driven the Z4 quite a bit around a small venue and especially at slow to moderate speeds there's no real understeer. The way our tires were before, making the car super sluggish, was definitely not at all better. I much prefer the street tires as they are now.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that the defaul tire pressures are not in my opinion optimal. I highly recommend bumping them up a bit more for a closer approximation to how they are for real.

bmanic
21-10-2015, 20:56
It hurts me to say that AC's 1M is quite a bit closer. :(

You mean the current 1.3 version or the one before? I have not driven the 1.3 version yet but at least the one before was not what I'd call realistic.. though like I said earlier, I have not driven the actual 1M but have plenty of driving experience in BMW Z4 and also an early 2000's M3 (or whatever that i3xx something is called). Those driving experiences were vastly different to the almost broken AC version. Especially the Z4 in AC was in my opinion broken, having virtually zero things in common with the real thing. It is much better now though in version 1.3 and starts to resemble the real car somewhat.

However, having said that, there's something weird with the way tires do not properly go over a threshold of "slipping completely". They are sort of "sticky" all the time, even at extremes. Like there is too much tear grip over the limit. But then again, while actually staying on the limit, our tires behave much better than in any other simulator and this is comparing to real life on the limit (not hooligan) driving.

It's very possible that the issue is indeed with longitudinal grip.. as the side slip, once going at ridiculous angles, is feeling quite good (perhaps there too a bit too grippy). I suspect all of the "magic" lies in the flash heating model combined with tear grip. When tires start to spin like crazy, like while doing a burnout or drifting, there should be quite quick and almost sudden loss off grip due to excessive heat or something. This part is missing in pCars and way overdone in some of the competition (especially iRacing suffers from very weird grip levels when you are thoroughly over the limit). So yeah, I sort of agree but I don't think it has anything to do with actual peak grip which according to G force measurements is pretty spot on in pCars.

Krus Control
21-10-2015, 21:09
In my experience, the road cars get so much grip that running in light rain feels closer to what I experience IRL than running dry, while heavier rain feels a lot closer to IRL grip levels in those conditions. Though it must be said that slip angles are different and clearly reflect rain driving behavior. I haven't driven any of the cars in game but I own a GT86 and will be exploring in depth once that DLC gets added. I don't think it matters what the figures are. If you go and do a lap IRL and do the same one in PCARS, your PCARS lap will certainly be faster unless there is a difference in the track. I understand that tarmac gets much more grip than regular roads, but I know that it isn't this big of a difference. The biggest thing I've noticed is that lateral slides don't carry as easily as IRL and tend to gravitate towards a more grippy line, instead of slowly increasing oversteer until opposite lock is applied. That right there in a sentence is the big problem with the street tire model. You can adjust setup as much as you want, but this will always be the case. Having said that this characteristic does not bother me at all and has not gotten in my way once. And in the wet the slip angles are so spot on and you tend to not see this happening.

IJOJOI
21-10-2015, 21:20
I disagree. I think you confuse grip with grip falloff. The actual peak grip of the tire, that is the absolute most grip you can have, seems pretty much spot on. The G's you can pull are almost identical to the figures published by autosport and other magazines.

What I do agree with you is that there is way too little grip falloff, or the actual curvature of the falloff, or the flash heating is off. This means that once you are actually sliding heavily, there is too much grip. This is probably also what makes the tires harder to drift than hey should be (mainly meaning the ability to maintain a drift at moderate angles and throttle pinned).

pCars is kind of the exact opposite to all the other simulators where they have too little progressive grip and no real heat simulation which gives them the weird "there's no tire feel while over the threshold" kind of driving, ala iRacing and especially Assetto Corsa (though it got much MUCH better in AC now with the latest 1.3 patch).

I'm also disagreeing with IJOJOI about the understeer bit.. though I have not driven the BMW 1M but I have driven the Z4 quite a bit around a small venue and especially at slow to moderate speeds there's no real understeer. The way our tires were before, making the car super sluggish, was definitely not at all better. I much prefer the street tires as they are now.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that the defaul tire pressures are not in my opinion optimal. I highly recommend bumping them up a bit more for a closer approximation to how they are for real.

So to a dress your points ;)
I agree with you on the fall off definitely.

Before the AC one was too easy now you can steer it with the throttle quite nicely...
The 1M is quite a different car to the z4 in my experience ;)
There is a reason they use it in formula drift...
Actually It's more similar to the e92 m3 in terms of chassis balance (my experience, but a while back since I drove one of these)

Regarding the understeer.
I am not talking about the slow corner understeer but about the instant bite on 100kph + corners.

What I definitely miss is the progressiveness as well as being able to modulate the car with the throttle.
Atm you just go full throttle and wait...
Until you get a nasty tank slapper.

As I said, I enjoy the Faretti 100x more because of that.

Edit:
Yes! Our tires behave the best on and under the limit for sure!
When you drive them normally they feel way more like driving an actual street car than any other sim.

As you said it's just the hooligan mode problem ;)
But I think if Doug or someone is willing to look into it,
It would quite benefit the overall experience

Best regards

John Hargreaves
21-10-2015, 21:51
I've just spent an hour or so tinkering around hopping between AC and PC, and my current pCars setup feels quite similar to the AC version actually. I tried to keep the front end quite pointy and the back end a bit loose so that you can steer the car more from that end. The tyre pressures are certainly closer to real values. I drive a 2011 1 series 125 M Sport coupe and although it has a lot less power than the 1M, it's bound to be quite similar in many respects, and it is a very agile car and I tried to capture that feeling in the setup. Give it a try and see what you think. It uses the Masculin medium tyre btw.

220657

The clutch in AC seems much more harsh as it bites, whereas the pCars auto clutch is more gentle, so off the line wheelspin doesn't happen. The sound in AC in my opinion is terrible; muffled and distant, but pCars feels much more vibrant and alive. Also the AC version feels a bit 'top heavy', it seems to wobble from side to side as if it's really windy or something, that was a bit weird.

TrevorAustin
21-10-2015, 22:19
I think they are much more lifelike now, prior to the improvement near super cars handled worse than my mums fiesta.

Krus Control
21-10-2015, 22:22
I think they are much more lifelike now, prior to the improvement near super cars handled worse than my mums fiesta.

Lol yeah the P1 used to be undrivable before they fixed the tire flex problems. Now it's just about the best thing in the world. Didn't notice too huge of a difference in other cars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
21-10-2015, 22:46
There are some issues with the grip levels, I've said many times that the tyres are consistently shooting a bit above their league. Not necessarily much at all, but still a bit. This is most noticeable in the longitudinal rather than lateral behavior, particularly during braking, though how much of that is down to our sublimely good ABS (600 Hz vs. real life's 10-20 Hz) it's hard to say. Also the latest crop of tyres from Michelin seem to have shown a massive gain in longitudinal grip as well, the new Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres have been recorded pulling 0.2-0.3 G higher figures in braking tests compared to the older tyres, without showing much of an increase in the lateral figures so far. And yeah, there seems to be a bit too much grip when sliding with the road tyres, though likewise one needs to be careful about this because drifters have shown that the drop off in grip is much smaller than previous tyre behavior models and beliefs would have suggested. Well, the devs are still working on doing some upgrades on the tyre model (like the camber issue), one can hope that some improvements to this will still be implemented.

I do find it odd though that you'd pick out the 1M as somehow difficult to drift, in my experience it's very comfortable going and staying sideways, probably the easiest car in the game to be sideways in, at least off the top of my head.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
21-10-2015, 22:49
I drive a 2011 1 series 125 M Sport coupe and although it has a lot less power than the 1M, it's bound to be quite similar in many respects, and it is a very agile car and I tried to capture that feeling in the setup.I wonder how much of an effect the rear axle assembly loaned from the M3 has on the 1M Coupe, in comparison to the other 1-series models. Of course it's bound to have many similarities, but it is a fairly hefty change after all.

bmanic
21-10-2015, 22:50
If you go and do a lap IRL and do the same one in PCARS, your PCARS lap will certainly be faster unless there is a difference in the track. I understand that tarmac gets much more grip than regular roads, but I know that it isn't this big of a difference.

.. yet the problem in other simulators is that in them you actually slide off the track in a fairly gentle highway off-ramp style turn, at 80km/h while I have absolutely no problems at all going up to almost 100km/h (with some nice tire squeel and some clearly felt 4 wheel micro-drift) around it in real life.

So all the things you guys mention about grip is actually the exact OPPOSITE in my opinion. What is happening correctly is the way the grip doesn't go away enough when you go way over the limit. I have a pretty tactile feel off this I think and I wish I could explain it better. It's like the other simulators do not have a dynamic enough tire while pCars has the dynamic tire but doesn't reduce grip enough in certain extreme situations.

For instance, try going with your GT86 completely sideways in a 4 wheel drift and see how quickly it stops while it is sliding out of control on all four wheels (on a large parking lot or skidpad of course!). The way a real car slides when at ridiculous slip angles is that it sliiiiiiiiiideeeeess then quite quickly slows down and then quite suddenly stops. It's like an S curve kind of.. sliiiiiidieeee___sloooowingdoooown_even_faster_sloowingdooown_STOP! The last part of the slowing down and stop is spot on in pCars and completely missing in all the other simulators (for instance in iRacing you are still slowly slowing down and sliding while the car scrubs at 30km/h over the asphalt!). However the initial transition from the actual sliiiiiiiide and first slowing down part is wrong in pCars, in my opinion. It goes too quickly from the long slide to the fast slowing down and stop.

I can't explain it in words. Will have to think about it how it would be possible to represent as multiple graphs (hard to do in a single graph because the slip angle and how much the tire "skips" over the surface plays a large role here).

Now that we have the skidpad again it should be possible to get fairly accurate max grip data and see if the tires are also too grippy overall (I feel like they may be just a tiny bit too grippy at peak but not much!!).

bmanic
21-10-2015, 22:53
I do find it odd though that you'd pick out the 1M as somehow difficult to drift, in my experience it's very comfortable going and staying sideways, probably the easiest car in the game to be sideways in, at least off the top of my head.

This is my experience as well. Just bump up the tire pressures a bit and off ya go. Especially once I've tweaked the FFB to be as I feel a real steering wheel responds, I have very little trouble doing the sideways dance..

However, I just tried the 1M in AC and there it is even easier to drift, especially to keep the drift GOING. It definitely feels a lot more accurate at very high slip angles. Now that they have somewhat fixed the tire model and thus resulted in better FFB you can even pull out of the drift relatively easily (was the main problem before).

Krus Control
21-10-2015, 23:00
I do get what you are saying with the sliiiiiide and completely agree. There isn't enough sliiiide all around in PCARS. But I think it is good enough ATM. This is the exact problem I was describing in my last post. Also the GT86 tends to skip the slow slowing down part and tends to grip up all at once unless you balance with throttle. You're still wrong about IRL having the same grip levels or even more though. In the whole range of tire grip PCARS is generally higher in grip levels. This is not a subject to argue over. It doesn't matter where the discrepancy lies. In every road car you will see less understeer, less oversteer, and better lap times than IRL. You can quote your figures all you want but this is the reality when you actually play the game.

bmanic
21-10-2015, 23:54
Ok, so I just put the BMW 1M on track in pCars and with some tweaks to the DIFFERENTIAL was able to drift the car very easily.. short drifts, long drifts, drifts that lasted so long that I burned down the tires completely. I suspect that this whole debate is caused by the numbers on the differential being somewhat ambiguous. It seems to default 20% lock on both acceleration and coast. What I did was this:

Acc. differential = 5%
Coast differential = 8%
Pre-Load = 85nm/s

I also took away the front and rear toe (pretty sure the street car has very little or no toe at all due to the way toe wears tires). Finally I made sure I had less overall camber, especially front (is the street setup truly -1.9?? That's a lot of camber for a street stock car!!). Oh, and I bumped up the tire pressures a bit.. both front and rear.

Sliiiiiiiiiide for miles and quite fun. :)

I still think there is an issue of how the tires regain grip at massive hooligan angles but these tweaks made the car IMMEDIATELY drift a million times better.. and the changes are not large. No changes to suspension or chassis other than the camber. With the default setup I can not drift the car at all. It immediately gives you a tank slapper and is obviously tuned for putting down fast laptimes.

bmanic
22-10-2015, 00:01
I do get what you are saying with the sliiiiiide and completely agree. There isn't enough sliiiide all around in PCARS. But I think it is good enough ATM. This is the exact problem I was describing in my last post. Also the GT86 tends to skip the slow slowing down part and tends to grip up all at once unless you balance with throttle. You're still wrong about IRL having the same grip levels or even more though. In the whole range of tire grip PCARS is generally higher in grip levels. This is not a subject to argue over. It doesn't matter where the discrepancy lies. In every road car you will see less understeer, less oversteer, and better lap times than IRL. You can quote your figures all you want but this is the reality when you actually play the game.

eh? Peak grip is easy to confirm.. just look at the G readings. Like Jussi said, there might be a bit of too much grip but then again, this is also true for Assetto Corsa!.. yet you can slide a whole lot more there. I still think you are confusing two completely separate issues. Peak grip can be super duper high yet you may be crashing and sliding all over the place. So lets NOT confuse peak grip values with the progressiveness (or lack there of) in a simulator. Heck the GT3 cars in AC before the 1.3 update were ridiculously fast.. way faster than real life at high speed. I suspect that is still true in version 1.3 but you now have a more progressive tire which feels a lot more like real life than it did before.

What I'm trying to say here is: You immediately think "grip is too high!" when in fact the actual peak grip level may be fairly realistic but the actual tire fall-off grip/slip angle and heat equations are off, thus making the car "feel" like it has more grip than it actually does. There is another thing that happens too, which means I can "throw the car" into corners in an unrealistic fashion.. and thus in those situations there is indeed too much grip. You'll also be able to get away with situations where in real life you'd probably have spun out (and vice versa when it comes to some of the competition). But if a real life absolute optimum lap (meaning 100% use of absolute unrealistic optimum slip angle, aka impossible) would be duplicated in pCars, I suspect the times on a laser scanned track wouldn't be very far off but because such a lap is impossible in both pCars and in real life, we'll never get a proper peak grip/maximum grip comparison scenario.

It's all a balancing act and at the moment pCars is in my opinion a bit too forgiving in tire ripping situations whereas some other games are quite a bit under. Two sides of the coin.. all trying to hone in on the absolute perfect model. :)

bmanic
22-10-2015, 00:52
A little update: So I noticed that while I can indeed drift quite well around a skidpad with the differential tweaks (noticed that it's the coast diff that makes me have a tank slapper so setting that to 0% helps in this regard a lot) I mentioned above but all the good drifts have a common denominator: High speed. At over 100km/h and in 3rd gear I can do long smooth drifts. However, going to an actual circuit with tighter corners that requires lower speed drifts, no amount of tweaking got me to a satisfactory diftable setup.. and herein lies the problem. At lower speeds there's just too much longitudinal grip, so pretty much exactly what IJOJOI said in his original post. The rear tires regain that grip way too easily and then suddenly end the drift in a dramatic tank slapper (because once the rear grips, the fronts get a quick window of opportunity to grip as well and the boom.. tank slap into the wall). So it's relatively hard to maintain enough slip on the rear tires at low speeds.

At higher speeds this is not any more a problem because even if the rears momentarily gain grip again, they pretty much immediately lose it again with even the tiniest change in attitude of the car.

So yeah, I'd love a small change to the way the tires grip at extreme longitudinal slip while trying to keep the overall tire performance as close to how it is now as possible. It's probably a fundamental issue in all of the tires in pCars which is also why you can get away with some pretty scary weight transfers and crazy unrealistic situations without slamming into the wall.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-10-2015, 01:37
I also took away the front and rear toe (pretty sure the street car has very little or no toe at all due to the way toe wears tires). Finally I made sure I had less overall camber, especially front (is the street setup truly -1.9?? That's a lot of camber for a street stock car!!). Oh, and I bumped up the tire pressures a bit.. both front and rear.Official ranges for toe are roughly 0.03-0.3 for both front and rear, front camber is from -0.92 to -1.75, rear camber is from -1.55 to -1.97. Seems like a common alignment they're set to when you take them to be re-aligned is -1.1 degrees at the front and -1.6 degrees at the rear, give or take. Most every road car out there has more camber at the rear than the front, with some (often low camber) cars having the same settings front and rear. These would include the Evo line (most versions seem to have been -1.0 degrees front and rear), the Megane RS line (-0.5 front and rear), Audi R8 (-1 degree front and rear), the new 991 GT3 (-1.5 front and rear) and quite a few others. The only real exception I've found so far, a road car with more camber at the front, has been the 12C, which runs -1.5 degrees at the front and -1.0 degrees at the rear. This is likely because the car has that clever Z-bar rear suspension, most road cars have the rear frequency significantly higher than the front, which tends towards oversteer, so they compensate a bit laterally by having more camber at the rear. The 12C's Z-bar suspension though allows it to have a higher rear frequency in a straight line (when you want it for comfort reasons), but a higher front frequency in corners, which tends towards understeer.

Anyway, the default setup on the 1M is clearly track modified, it's too stiff and the alignment is too aggressive as well. Too bad we can't adjust the viscous diff on it anymore, the real car has the active diff from the M3, which can generate quite a lot of locking when necessary. It shouldn't really have too much preload (that sort of thing works against an active diff), but I do like to increase the acc locking especially.

EDIT: My favorite track to drift at with the 1M Coupe is Hockenheim Short, where roughly half of the corners are 2nd gear drift corners, and work out quite well for me. At high speeds it's easier because you can just chuck the car in and pull off a long slide without even using the gas, but slow speed stuff works quite well for me at least already. Not saying it couldn't be improved though. And FWIW I use the OEM style setup I have listed on the setup website.

IJOJOI
22-10-2015, 04:50
I agree with bmanic there.
The faster, longer drifts work quite well.
It's about slow to medium speed drifts, where the car recovers a bit too violently resulting in a heavy tankslapper.

However I still think that the longitudinal grip plays quite a roll here.

bmanic
22-10-2015, 05:52
Definitely. If we had a lot sharper longitudinal grip falloff (when the tires are truly "scrubbing and screaming" over the surface at full tilt) it'd be a lot easier to maintain the drift.

bmanic
22-10-2015, 05:57
EDIT: My favorite track to drift at with the 1M Coupe is Hockenheim Short, where roughly half of the corners are 2nd gear drift corners, and work out quite well for me. At high speeds it's easier because you can just chuck the car in and pull off a long slide without even using the gas, but slow speed stuff works quite well for me at least already. Not saying it couldn't be improved though. And FWIW I use the OEM style setup I have listed on the setup website.

I'm fairly confident in my drifting abilities and without modifying anything it's virtually impossible to drift slow corners properly.. are you sure you are "drifting" and not just sliding sideways without much opposite lock? I think quite a few people get this confused. With drifting I mean proper full tilt throttle and truly sideways while keeping opposite lock with the steering wheel for quite some time.

Even when I've done absolutely terrible stuff to the setup (basically to reduce grip as much as I can) it's rather abrupt the way the car regains grip.

None of this is an issue at higher speeds.. and in my experience it's actually the exact opposite to what you said.. at higher speeds you CAN use the throttle at full tilt and very heavy sideways action with a lot of opposite lock, for a long time. It's the slow speed grip that is wrong (oh why is it always slow speed grip that is an issue in simulators.. usually it's the lack of it but here it's the opposite). :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-10-2015, 11:55
are you sure you are "drifting" and not just sliding sideways without much opposite lock? I think quite a few people get this confused. With drifting I mean proper full tilt throttle and truly sideways while keeping opposite lock with the steering wheel for quite some time.I highly resent the notion that an all wheel drift with limited countersteer somehow isn't drifting, that's the best kind of drifting. =)

But I do actually mean sliding in a decent angle with quite a bit of throttle. I'll try to post a video later.

bmanic
22-10-2015, 17:36
.. well, it isn't drifting in my opinion unless you are thoroughly smoking the rear tires with the power of the engine. Otherwise it's called "sliding". :)

By the way, having done some more drifting in Assetto Corsa I'm starting to get the feel that it is a bit too simple there. I really hope we don't end up with a tire that every single person can immediately drift because that would be highly unrealistic. There must be some element of danger of tank slappers and bad understeer to ruin the potential drift maneuver. I don't know why the sim community at large seems to think "easy drifting" = "good tire model". There's no sense in that. There are plenty of cars in real life that you simply can not drift.. I highly recommend the "Can it drift?" youtube series for anybody in doubt.

However, I'm still certain that the longitudinal grip has to be tweaked in pCars for more authenticity but I want to stress that we are not at all far from a really superb tire model!!. I think what is required is probably quite small changes.. or the latest heat changes and other magic that Casey and AJ are working on.

I still think our street tires are ridiculously good when driving optimally, aka racing. Very authentic feeling in my opinion.

IJOJOI
22-10-2015, 17:45
.. well, it isn't drifting in my opinion unless you are thoroughly smoking the rear tires with the power of the engine. Otherwise it's called "sliding". :)

By the way, having done some more drifting in Assetto Corsa I'm starting to get the feel that it is a bit too simple there. I really hope we don't end up with a tire that every single person can immediately drift because that would be highly unrealistic. There must be some element of danger of tank slappers and bad understeer to ruin the potential drift maneuver. I don't know why the sim community at large seems to think "easy drifting" = "good tire model". There's no sense in that. There are plenty of cars in real life that you simply can not drift.. I highly recommend the "Can it drift?" youtube series for anybody in doubt.

However, I'm still certain that the longitudinal grip has to be tweaked in pCars for more authenticity but I want to stress that we are not at all far from a really superb tire model!!. I think what is required is probably quite small changes.. or the latest heat changes and other magic that Casey and AJ are working on.

I still think our street tires are ridiculously good when driving optimally, aka racing. Very authentic feeling in my opinion.

Agree with you!
The only car, that matches my reallife drifting experiances in terms of difficulty/drifting is the new M4 in AC, you should try it out.

Otherwise, I just miss the old WMD times, where the Devs just tried out different Tires for the sake of it :P
I would love to be able to use the Faretti tyres on the BMW and the Mustang...

What do you think about the farettis?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-10-2015, 00:47
.. well, it isn't drifting in my opinion unless you are thoroughly smoking the rear tires with the power of the engine. Otherwise it's called "sliding". :)I'd say the exact opposite, that's not drifting, that's (power) sliding, the least interesting and "cheapest" drifting technique. The only thing worse if you ask me is using the handbrake, which should be banned if you ask me. The whole ethos of drifting has from the start been technicality, not just abusing brute power, though I guess with modern competitive drifting that has changed somewhat... I miss the good old days, when drifters cut their teeth by seeing who could control their drifts best with cars that had less than 200 bhp, cars you couldn't get sideways with power alone, and could barely even keep them sideways with power... I mean sure, power sliding is a valid technique, but I have infinitely more respect for someone who can execute a smooth braking drift, perhaps with a slight feint entry, than I have for anyone who just goes POWEEEERRRRRR! =)

bmanic
23-10-2015, 21:17
Ah well to each their own. I was talking about drifting as it is competitive now. Nobody is "sliding" around corners there.. they are power-sliding, yes aka DRIFTING! Never heard sliding being called drifting.. but power-sliding is indeed a synonym for drifting, always has been.

Anyhow, our tire woes are connected to the power part, that is the longitudinal grip as IJOJOI correctly identified and has posted about multiple times over the years.

IJOJOI
28-10-2015, 14:00
UPDATE!!!

WOW SMS, wow Casey, AJ, Doug!!!

I instantly bought the new DLC, since I was curious about the new tyres Casey mentioned, and what shall I say...
A HUGE step foward! The cars feel so alive!

To sum up my thoughts after 10min of driv(ft)ing...

GT 86/Scion FRS (normal edition)
I just tried the HARD Compound for these cars.
As I said before, they feel a lot more alive now.
They still feel very good when braking loose, but the snapbacks at slow speeds are gone!
Very well made! You can make slow cornerdrifts that feel very (!) realistic.

I have never driven these cars but I'd Imagine them just like that.
Not enough power to light up the rears at high speeds, but very fun for slow corners.
@Jussi and here you got your "keep the steeringwheel staight" car :D
Except in this case it feels right :P
A huge leap forward.

SCION Rocket Bunny (the 500hp one) again Hard tyres (same as the other Roadcars)
What a beast, but what a great one.
These new tyres make drifting so much fun, even though (as Casey mentioned in the Physics thread)
you can feel they need a little improvement on high angles, it all feels so much smoother and better.
Not easier however which I like!
This car is bonkers. When the boost comes on in 2nd and 3rd gear you better watch your steering inputs ;)

Please add these tyres to the other roadcars aswell or make them somewhat similar to these! :D

bmanic
28-10-2015, 22:44
It's not just new tires for the new cars. Go and drive the BMW 1M!! I just drove the new update and it is MILES better. I haven't even driven the new cars yet, I just took the BMW 1 Series M out on track and it is COMPLETELY different now. It is actually VERY EASY to drift now.. at any speeds.

I STILL think there is too much "progressiveness" to the longitudinal grip and also too much overall longitudinal grip but at least now it is awesome to drift. I wish we got a tiny bit less of the grip to make some scary situations like in real life where you actually crash due to going too fast completely sideways. Anyhow, this is a HUGE improvement yet again.

Overall, the temperatures look a lot better too. Now I can get the Masculin All Weather tires easily up to 140 C when going mad. This was impossible before.

Hlspwn
29-10-2015, 13:09
Guys seriously good lunch time read. Can't wait to get back to gaming. Moving to new house, and will be upgrading the pc to. Still some things to get sorted. Really want to play the new cars and test the tires. Last time I played was two patches ago.

Krus Control
29-10-2015, 14:25
Ok I own a GT86 and the new tire model is perfect. There is a bit of instability that comes in big slides that is slightly different from real life. The instability I think is later to kick in in real life. But this would be different for a number of reasons. It's so close that I don't think it matters. It has something to do with the way heat is dealt with on the surface of the tire I think. Anyway I am so massively impressed with this. I find myself taking similar lines and fighting the car in the same way in PCARS that I do in real life. And in the rain it's as spot on as ever. Bravo SMS. I do think that even beyond my nostalgia of owning the car that this tire model represents a step forward. It has a more vivid and true to life feel than any of the other road tires. Everything feels more complete and wrapped up in this new dlc. So happy.

KkDrummer
29-10-2015, 14:32
so you guys are saying this DLC improves tire modelling to all road cars, not only the new ones???

Krus Control
29-10-2015, 14:33
No there is a new Nitto tire for the dlc

KkDrummer
29-10-2015, 15:17
No there is a new Nitto tire for the dlc

Ah, ok. thanks!

bmanic
29-10-2015, 16:20
so you guys are saying this DLC improves tire modelling to all road cars, not only the new ones???

The heating and camber fixes improved ALL the tires as far as I can tell. At least the Masculin and Faretti tires drive very differently now. They are way more progressive.


Ok I own a GT86 and the new tire model is perfect. There is a bit of instability that comes in big slides that is slightly different from real life. The instability I think is later to kick in in real life. But this would be different for a number of reasons. It's so close that I don't think it matters. It has something to do with the way heat is dealt with on the surface of the tire I think. Anyway I am so massively impressed with this. I find myself taking similar lines and fighting the car in the same way in PCARS that I do in real life. And in the rain it's as spot on as ever. Bravo SMS. I do think that even beyond my nostalgia of owning the car that this tire model represents a step forward. It has a more vivid and true to life feel than any of the other road tires. Everything feels more complete and wrapped up in this new dlc. So happy.

@Krus Control: I'm very surprised you think the Nitto tire is spot on. It has way too much grip. I was pulling 1.8G on the Hard compound tire. Surely that is not at all possible with the stock GT86 tire which is narrow and easy to slip with. Are you comparing to after market tires on your real car?

In fact, the current Masculin tire is a lot more realistic feeling in my opinion. Now with the heat and camber fixes it just works so much better than anything else. Even the FFB is a lot more detailed in that tire compared to the Nitto (probably due to Doug's special sauce tweaks he did). Frankly, I'm quite disappointed in the Nitto tires.. though I have not yet tried the rain tire. I have a suspicion that tire is more of a typical all weather, aka normal, tire.

RomKnight
29-10-2015, 16:29
bmanic,



EDIT: I goofed in the notes. The tire model update below wasn't done in time and will be happening for patch 6, not 5.

from here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?41348-The-Physics-of-Japanese-Cars-Expansion&highlight=toyota+physics)

TMoney
29-10-2015, 16:29
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the new tire changes coming in patch 6.0? Or is that something else unrelated to what you're talking about?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
29-10-2015, 16:48
I was pulling 1.8G on the Hard compound tireIn what conditions and on what track? I tried to see what the tyres were up to on the test track skid pan, and I was seeing figures more in the 1.2 G region in steady situations, peaking quickly into higher ranges in some dynamic situations.

But yeah, the Nitto T555 is better than any OEM tyres the 86 is normally supplied with, not disputing that.

Krus Control
29-10-2015, 17:13
Of course it has too much grip. That's down to the track surface I think. Too grippy then rubbers in too fast. I'm used to way less. I use the rain tires to compare. But it's still so close. Mainly you can just brake later than I think is possible. But still it's as close as I think you'll ever get to real life.

Krus Control
29-10-2015, 17:16
You focus on the wrong aspects. It's the BEHAVIOR that is important, not the PERFORMANCE.

bmanic
29-10-2015, 21:27
bmanic,



from here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?41348-The-Physics-of-Japanese-Cars-Expansion&highlight=toyota+physics)

I don't care what is said. I drove the BMW 1 M for many hours the day before the Japan car pack was released and the Masculin and Faretti tires now behave completely differently. There is no placebo here because I was able to run them to such hot temperatures that I have never seen before and the camber spread that was explained is exactly how it works now. So whatever was downloaded in the 6.3mb that came with the Japan DLC pack, has already made the tires completely different.

bmanic
29-10-2015, 21:29
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the new tire changes coming in patch 6.0? Or is that something else unrelated to what you're talking about?

That's what I thought too but I have direct, multiple hours back to back (almost A/B) comparison. Basically I drove it pre-Japan DLC for many hours. Slept a few hours and then downloaded DLC. Tires are completely different now. The difference is not subtle at all. So whatever downloaded with the Japan DLC changed the tires. I suspect some kind of bug/issue in the heating was corrected.

IJOJOI
29-10-2015, 21:52
I look forward to test the "old" roadtyres bmanic!

Sounds really interesting to me :)

Good night :)

bmanic
30-10-2015, 09:44
You focus on the wrong aspects. It's the BEHAVIOR that is important, not the PERFORMANCE.

The performance is directly influencing the behavior. The Nitto soft and Nitto hard tires make no sense on the otherwise stock car, in my opinion (explained my motivation of this opinion below). You can even see in the replay that the car behaves quite a bit different to all the review material on youtube and various car shows on TV. The rain tire should be default (and should be renamed to All Weather).

For instance, with the Nitto soft and hard tires it is impossible to maintain even high speed drifts for any extended period of time.. the engine simply boggs down, even at extreme angles. Frankly, I think those two tire compounds are very weird. What makes it even more weird is that now the Masculin and Faretti tires are much easier to keep spinning. It's almost as if some new tweaks made these old tires work much more believably and the Nitto tires got "massaged" to behave like the old tires used to be. Hard to drift and almost impossible to keep them spinning. I just don't get it. Why do we now have an underpowered car that defaults to performance sticky tires? The default setup plays a HUGE role because that's what the majority of people will drive it with online.

Would love to hear Casey's point of view. He did not cover it in his Japanese DLC physics topic at all. There are so many reviews of the stock GT86/Scion/Subaru versions with very similar conclusions about it's drivability and potential for "having fun", yet the pCars version was decided to be something entirely different. How does one even arrive at this decision? Were enthusiasts who modify the real car used as the primary source? If so, why was this used as the motivation? From a selling point for the game it makes no sense. There are vastly more people who do NOT own the car but have watched the various entertaining car shows and youtube reviews that tell you about the stock thing. In my opinion, it should behave the way that the majority perceives it to drive.. that is, in stock trim.

Luckily all of this has a very simple fix. Just change the default tire to be the Rain Tire, and rename that tire to All Weather instead.

John Hargreaves
30-10-2015, 09:53
That does make some sense to me; if it's a street car, then there's no such thing as a 'rain' tyre anyway, street tyres are all rain tyres. So if you bought one of these and took it on trackdays you'd probably treat yourself to a set of track tyres, which would be the other two, the Nitto S/H.

IJOJOI
30-10-2015, 09:55
The performance is directly influencing the behavior. The Nitto soft and Nitto hard tires make no sense on the otherwise stock car, in my opinion (explained my motivation of this opinion below). You can even see in the replay that the car behaves quite a bit different to all the review material on youtube and various car shows on TV. The rain tire should be default (and should be renamed to All Weather).

For instance, with the Nitto soft and hard tires it is impossible to maintain even high speed drifts for any extended period of time.. the engine simply boggs down, even at extreme angles. Frankly, I think those two tire compounds are very weird. What makes it even more weird is that now the Masculin and Faretti tires are much easier to keep spinning. It's almost as if some new tweaks made these old tires work much more believably and the Nitto tires got "massaged" to behave like the old tires used to be. Hard to drift and almost impossible to keep them spinning. I just don't get it. Why do we now have an underpowered car that defaults to performance sticky tires? The default setup plays a HUGE role because that's what the majority of people will drive it with online.

Would love to hear Casey's point of view. He did not cover it in his Japanese DLC physics topic at all. There are so many reviews of the stock GT86/Scion/Subaru versions with very similar conclusions about it's drivability and potential for "having fun", yet the pCars version was decided to be something entirely different. How does one even arrive at this decision? Were enthusiasts who modify the real car used as the primary source? If so, why was this used as the motivation? From a selling point for the game it makes no sense. There are vastly more people who do NOT own the car but have watched the various entertaining car shows and youtube reviews that tell you about the stock thing. In my opinion, it should behave the way that the majority perceives it to drive.. that is, in stock trim.

Luckily all of this has a very simple fix. Just change the default tire to be the Rain Tire, and rename that tire to All Weather instead.

I am quite satisfied with the hard tyres tbh.
Remember, that the GT86 only has 200hp, that's not that much on a hot track with a Little sticky tyres.

The cars on Masculin tyres have way more hp.

bmanic
30-10-2015, 21:42
I know. What I was trying to say is that the car is a lot more fun with the rain tires. It also behaves very close to how you see it in various car review shows when using this tire. There's a good reason why Toyota put tiny narrow tires on the thing. I think we should keep to the stock specs. If you want to go track crazy, just load up the rocket bunny edition. Heck, it would be enough if just one of the identical models (we got 3 identical ones!!) had the rain tire as default.

Also, as John said, there is no such thing as a "rain tire" for street cars. It should be called something else, like All Weather, to keep things consistent.

bmanic
04-11-2015, 06:01
Copied from the Japan DLC thread:

Just did a very quick comparison to AC in the BMW 1M. The test is exceptionally simple and our tires fail it (even though they have now magically become a lot better for drifting! I had ZERO problems drifting the BMW 1M with the default setup.. high speed, low speed, mid speed.. loooooong sideways controlled drifts are very easy now. The slow speed held drifts were a nightmare before the Japan DLC. So something has definitely changed). So, anyhow, this is the test:

Turn the wheel to full lock on the skidpad at the test track. Floor the throttle in 1st gear. Okay, so the car starts doing donuts, as expected. Now shift to 2nd gear while you keep going. Boom.. engine bogs down. This just isn't realistic at all. In AC it works almost as expected.. there the engine bogs down a little bit (had optimum track conditions so maximum grip) but then rapidly starts gaining revs. I could even shift to 3rd gear and do full revs.. only at 4th gear did it finally bog down. Ours bog down immediately when you switch to 2nd gear.. so something is really off here.. and I'm not entirely sure if it's due to the differential or tire model.. or both! I suspect the tire model high slip conditions are to blame but could very well be something in the diff model too. Whatever the case, there should be no problems absolutely scorching the tires to pieces.

TonyR
04-11-2015, 12:06
Copied from the Japan DLC thread:

Just did a very quick comparison to AC in the BMW 1M. The test is exceptionally simple and our tires fail it (even though they have now magically become a lot better for drifting! I had ZERO problems drifting the BMW 1M with the default setup.. high speed, low speed, mid speed.. loooooong sideways controlled drifts are very easy now. The slow speed held drifts were a nightmare before the Japan DLC. So something has definitely changed). So, anyhow, this is the test:

Turn the wheel to full lock on the skidpad at the test track. Floor the throttle in 1st gear. Okay, so the car starts doing donuts, as expected. Now shift to 2nd gear while you keep going. Boom.. engine bogs down. This just isn't realistic at all. In AC it works almost as expected.. there the engine bogs down a little bit (had optimum track conditions so maximum grip) but then rapidly starts gaining revs. I could even shift to 3rd gear and do full revs.. only at 4th gear did it finally bog down. Ours bog down immediately when you switch to 2nd gear.. so something is really off here.. and I'm not entirely sure if it's due to the differential or tire model.. or both! I suspect the tire model high slip conditions are to blame but could very well be something in the diff model too. Whatever the case, there should be no problems absolutely scorching the tires to pieces.

Auto-Clutch on in pCars?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-11-2015, 12:42
FWIW I managed to do 2nd gear donuts quite easily with the OEM setup I usually run. Started from stationary with full lock, launched with 1st gear, then shifted to second when I was doing donuts, was probably my 6th time going around in 2nd gear at the point I took this:

221408

Tested it also on the Test Track (which forces your tyres to high temps, so more grip) and it still worked. That said the engine couldn't keep steady revs near the limiter, it went back and forth a bit as the load shifted. Very high slip situations like this are things that don't work fantastically with the current tyres, the rip grip updates that A.J. is working on should target the behavior in this area of performance specifically though, so I'm hopeful for improvements.

Krus Control
04-11-2015, 12:57
Also keep in mind that race tracks generally get much more grip than public roads. Racetracks are paved with tarmac, which has a tighter grain pattern than asphalt or typical pavement. One thing I've noticed driving around here in Chicago in my GT86 is that in some places the road provides a lot more grip and the car will grip up when I'm trying to go sideways and spoil my fun. And I'm running tires with heavy tread wear. The more I explore this the more I am convinced that PCARS does an almost perfect job of recreating the behavior of the car. I have to say that it's so close I'm pretty sure whatever you're nitpicking about this BMW is probably wrong. When I drive it now it seems to be just as refined as the GT86. If you think there is too much grip then turn on light rain.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-11-2015, 13:54
He's right that the tyres have too much grip (we've known that for a long time, but the difference is small), and there aren't any tyres in the game replicating "normal" road tyres, even our worst tyres are super good sports tyres. There are some issues with how the tyres behave in slip conditions, exaggerated longitudinal grip in slip being one of them, but the devs know that there are these issues and A.J. is working hard on updates specifically relating to making the tyres more natural in slides.

Still, I maintain that what we already have is very good, it's just not perfect, and it isn't in any game.

bmanic
04-11-2015, 20:24
Agreed. The tires are really good in "normal" racing situations but this high slip engine bogging down thing is quite important still. It's one of the reasons we can't get into serious trouble in nasty situations where you lose control. The car just stops a bit too soon and you regain grip too quickly.

I'm surprised you managed to get the car to do doughnuts in 2nd gear without heavily bogging down. What did you change? Granted I just tested the default setup with various amounts of Diff lock.. and with the All Weather tires. Anyhow, it's very clear that this is an area (rip grip) that needs to be improved by quite a bit. I'm pretty sure this is also from where the majority of "simcade" complaints come.. and I know IJOJO and many others have been trying to point this out over the years and some times there's been quite a bit of excuses from the developers instead of admitting that it is a weakness. Hence I think it is now important to truly get it these changes through once and for all. It is after all one of the very last pieces of the physics puzzle that can be considered "weak" in an otherwise ludicrously awesome tire model.

It's also be interesting to know if there is one general "world grip = 0.1xxxxx" parameter somewhere in the game where you could just lower the grip of the whole sim for testing (or most likely it's per track). Would love to have a play with something like that if it existed. I suspect that many small things would align if we just dropped the overall grip of everything by a tiny fraction and then also fix the rip grip thing. Of course this would validate another leader board reset which people will not like.. but I can always dream right? :)

IJOJOI
04-11-2015, 20:39
Agreed. The tires are really good in "normal" racing situations but this high slip engine bogging down thing is quite important still. It's one of the reasons we can't get into serious trouble in nasty situations where you lose control. The car just stops a bit too soon and you regain grip too quickly.

I'm surprised you managed to get the car to do doughnuts in 2nd gear without heavily bogging down. What did you change? Granted I just tested the default setup with various amounts of Diff lock.. and with the All Weather tires. Anyhow, it's very clear that this is an area (rip grip) that needs to be improved by quite a bit. I'm pretty sure this is also from where the majority of "simcade" complaints come.. and I know IJOJO and many others have been trying to point this out over the years and some times there's been quite a bit of excuses from the developers instead of admitting that it is a weakness. Hence I think it is now important to truly get it these changes through once and for all. It is after all one of the very last pieces of the physics puzzle that can be considered "weak" in an otherwise ludicrously awesome tire model.

It's also be interesting to know if there is one general "world grip = 0.1xxxxx" parameter somewhere in the game where you could just lower the grip of the whole sim for testing (or most likely it's per track). Would love to have a play with something like that if it existed. I suspect that many small things would align if we just dropped the overall grip of everything by a tiny fraction and then also fix the rip grip thing. Of course this would validate another leader board reset which people will not like.. but I can always dream right? :)

*looks to pCars 2 WMD site*
That would be a "fun" feature for the next game.
Something like -devmode as also suggested for pCars one
#bring back FREECAM :P

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-11-2015, 21:20
We need a campaign for a "pick your track condition" adjustment for pCARS 2 (waaaayyyyy too much work for pCARS 1). Pick anything from "Freshly paved, 2-4 seconds faster than normal*", "normal condition", "old and worn" all the way to "abandoned decades ago". =)




*After the 1996 season the racetrack at Laguna Seca near Monterey, Calif., was repaved. Testing by CART teams the next spring revealed much higher levels of grip and lap times dropped by seconds over previous events. But when the teams returned for their race at Laguna the following September, they found much lower grip levels and had to drastically change the setups they had so carefully developed six months earlier. (http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt1.htm)

bmanic
05-11-2015, 19:32
That would indeed be awesome!

bmanic
15-11-2015, 20:29
Bump! Casey / Doug, would it be possible to take a look at the Yiro tires (Ariel Atom cars) a bit? Those are the only street tires that I can't get up to very hot temperatures no matter what I try. I've driven around the test track on the centripetal circuit for several minutes now, constantly spinning the rear wheels but the temperatures stay calmly at around 120 degrees Celsius. I think the max I was able to reach was 122 degrees. As a contrast, the Masculin tires go way beyond 140 and could probably go hotter if I had the patience to destroy them. :)

Did the Yiro tires get the heating changes or not?