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View Full Version : Braking distances in the wet are way too short



Doge
26-10-2015, 15:53
Just did some laps on the Lotus Renault Classic F1 in monza for practice for an event. Were going to race on the wet, so I set "rain" (not light, the other one). Im running low downforce and high brake pressures and stopping the car is mega easy.

After getting used to the car, for turns 1-2 Im braking on the 150 meter board and turning into the corner comfortably. For turns 3-4 Im braking under the bridge.

A modern F1, in that weather, brakes around the 200 meters board for turn 1. Im braking like 50 meters later than them in a car way older and with way less downforce and grip, and way worse brakes. For turns 3-4, they need to brake earlier than me too. And all of that while theyre in qualifying trim, and Im driving fat with fuel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQg4my9lyDg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZYpTPWqlJ8

Im lapping 2-3 seconds faster than them with a lot of extra fuel in a car way slower. Surely this needs improvements.

Mad Al
26-10-2015, 16:19
the game (and yes it is just that) is the same for everybody playing it... which is the important bit.

it's not an absolute that you can compare every little detail with real life (like the location of braking markers, absolute braking distances, how much grip the tarmac gives...).. even the Simulators the F1 teams use are NOT 100% accurate and they pay a damned sight more than 50 for them...

ibby
26-10-2015, 16:21
Lotus Renault Classic F1?
Which one ? ;)

Rain in the game is basically Light Rain in real life. Not from the visuals but when looking at the grip.
I think they had problems slowing the AI down for the wet in a realistic way so that's why the grip for both player and AI doesn't really match the visuals ( imho ).

Raven403
26-10-2015, 16:23
There are a lot of aspects you could nit-pick at in the game compared to real Life, but there is always going to be a difference between the two, you can get CLOSE which is what i think Pcars does, and I would venture a guess that most players arent going to compare every car to its real world counterpart on youtube and compare brake distances, they'll just learn the car in the game.

For instance there is no visible Dry-Line in the wet, and you dont have to go offline to cool rain/inter tires in drying conditions either. Something I would like to see in the game but it is what it is.

Doge
26-10-2015, 16:25
the game (and yes it is just that) is the same for everybody playing it... which is the important bit.

? Playing soccer with a pyramidal object is equal for everyone too.


it's not an absolute that you can compare every little detail with real life (like the location of braking markers, absolute braking distances, how much grip the tarmac gives...).. even the Simulators the F1 teams use are NOT 100% accurate and they pay a damned sight more than 50 for them...

Were not talking about a car having 20 hp less than its real life counterpart.

Were talking about a 20+ years old car outperforming modern ones by a huge margin when it should be significantly slower. Thats a HUGE offset.

Doge
26-10-2015, 16:29
There are a lot of aspects you could nit-pick at in the game compared to real Life, but there is always going to be a difference between the two, you can get CLOSE which is what i think Pcars does.

Cmon man, the 98T should be at least 10 seconds down in these conditions. And its lapping seconds faster instead! With more fuel!

Raven403
26-10-2015, 16:35
Cmon man, the 98T should be at least 10 seconds down in these conditions. And its lapping seconds faster instead! With more fuel!

Oh we're talking 98T, I can't comment too much because I rarely rarely drive it. Its worth looking into though, I believe the Classic Open Wheel cars recieved some tweaks/improvements to the tires in a previous patch? Not 100% on that

ibby
26-10-2015, 16:54
Senna did a 1'24''916 at Monza with it 1986.
Looks pretty much on par with current F1 times.

flybikes
26-10-2015, 16:56
Those Pilots brake to soon! See the Hamilton first corner... That's why they will never reach Ayrton Senna level in the wet.

Bealdor
26-10-2015, 16:57
Cmon man, the 98T should be at least 10 seconds down in these conditions. And its lapping seconds faster instead! With more fuel!

Care to elaborate why? The times in the dry are similar between the 98T and modern F1 cars. The 98T has wider tires, more horsepower in qualifying trim and downforce is not really important on that track.

Doge
26-10-2015, 17:05
Care to elaborate why? The times in the dry are similar between the 98T and modern F1 cars.

Should have checked the layout they used.



The 98T has wider tires, more horsepower in qualifying trim and downforce is not really important on that track.

20 years of advance in tyre technology, aerodynamics, suspension and brakes. 100 extra kilos of fuel I was using. Rain making every kg of downforce count. Plenty of slow corner exits and turbo lag.

Bealdor
26-10-2015, 17:24
Damn, forgot that they didn't use the first chicane back then.

Could be that "rain" ingame is not wet enough or at least not as wet as in the videos you posted.
Rainy conditions are always hard to define because the wetness always varies.

Could also be that the rain tires are too grippy or you're having more practice with this car in rain.
Also, don't underestimate the lack of fear to throw the lap/car away, since that is missing in sims.

Doge
26-10-2015, 17:37
Could be that "rain" ingame is not wet enough or at least not as wet as in the videos you posted.
Rainy conditions are always hard to define because the wetness always varies.

I can bump it up to storm and test, but Im fairly sure that "rain" defines well that period where modern F1s use full wets. They dont drive in "storms" anymore, as weve seen this weekend.


Could also be that the rain tires are too grippy or you're having more practice with this car in rain. Also, don't underestimate the lack of fear to throw the lap/car away, since that is missing in sims.

Sorry man, Im not more talented than a scared Ayrton Senna, its just I have magnitudes more grip avaliable. Trust me on that one!

If youre not much into F1, the only layout that survives intact from back then and that its still used is Jerez. The 08 McLaren in that video was doing 1:17s in Winter testing (probably still had a couple seconds in the pocket). The Lotus managed a fastest lap of 1:28 in a proper race. Both in dry weather. Add some rain for both and it will only get uglier for the Lotus.

I think you should drive it to see what I mean mate. The rest of the car is sort of believable (struggling like hell on traction, as youd expect), but everytime you touch the brakes it becomes a bit of a joke. Give it a go.

TrevorAustin
26-10-2015, 18:01
Here we go again.

The brightness of the dash lights is 27 lumen too bright on the focus.

Zzzzzzzzz

apexatspeed
26-10-2015, 18:58
Here we go again.

The brightness of the dash lights is 27 lumen too bright on the focus.

Zzzzzzzzz

I can't believe you are going to play off braking distance errors as a silly complaint. You can't compare nit picking dash lights and cars that have oddly short braking distances in the rain. You need to go sit down somewhere.

TrevorAustin
26-10-2015, 18:59
I can't believe you are going to play off braking distance errors as a silly complaint. You can't compare nit picking dash lights and cars that have oddly short braking distances in the rain. You need to go sit down somewhere.
Believe.

apexatspeed
26-10-2015, 19:00
Believe.

Bringing up braking in the rain is perfectly valid. It isn't like he came on here with all caps being a troll. What is the point of the forums if when someone comes in with something to discuss and people like you come in here with crap like what you wrote?

TrevorAustin
26-10-2015, 19:03
Bringing up braking in the rain is perfectly valid. It isn't like he came on here with all caps being a troll. What is the point of the forums if when someone comes in with something to discussing and people like you come in here with crap like what you wrote? You sound like a freaking child.

Really couldn't care less about your opinion, lol, and look who's making the child comments:) go away little boy. Thought you were on my ignore list anyway. Fixed again. Oh please don't leave me another negative rep comment, it hurts so bad;)

apexatspeed
26-10-2015, 19:05
Really couldn't care less about your opinion, lol, and look who's making the child comments:) go away little boy. Thought you were on my ignore list anyway.

It says a lot when you won't answer my question. What is the point of the forums if when someone comes in with something valid to discuss you dismiss it with something unrelated?

Mad Al
26-10-2015, 19:12
Damn, forgot that they didn't use the first chicane back then.

Could be that "rain" ingame is not wet enough or at least not as wet as in the videos you posted.
Rainy conditions are always hard to define because the wetness always varies.

Could also be that the rain tires are too grippy or you're having more practice with this car in rain.
Also, don't underestimate the lack of fear to throw the lap/car away, since that is missing in sims.

no there was not a single chicane in 86 (76-94 layout), there was actually a slower double chicane.. there were also a difference in the Lesmos (they were faster) and the kerbs were all proper ones that you didn't use at all.... in fact.. how about a nice onboard


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcMU4NiPyAM


Should have checked the layout they used.




20 years of advance in tyre technology, aerodynamics, suspension and brakes. 100 extra kilos of fuel I was using. Rain making every kg of downforce count. Plenty of slow corner exits and turbo lag.

20 years of development that has been offset by repeated changes to the regulations from the FIA to deliberately SLOW the cars down again ....


and, as you were at such pains to point out that the track was not the same layout as 86, why did you just quote lap times comparing the 86 race with a winter practice session from 2008 (a year for which, BTW, there is no car in game..)

cornishbrooksy
26-10-2015, 20:31
Guys, calm down a little bit please....plenty of scope for a decent discussion without getting personal to each other.

:D