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jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 14:46
Hi,

I'm in need of technical advice, I've been using the new ish UDP to power a few apps on my PC (vrHive, crew chief) and sometime HUD dash on android tablet. I hat my in-game UDP setting at 5, all worked brilliantly and still does.....

However it turns out according to my Mrs "you're using all our internet up and I [she] can do f**k all!"
Umm this side effect has somewhat put me in the naughty corner apparently I'm now banned to use my apps is she's not reading her book. I don't like this, however I said I shall search for a solution.

Setup. My PS4 is connected wirelessly to my sky hub (broadband provider standard equipment) like this one
http://www.broadbandchoices.co.uk/guides/hardware/sky-broadband-routers
my laptop for vrHive/crew chief is also wireless connection, finally Samsung TAB2 is also wireless.

I'm assuming my bandwidth is being stretched and simple web browsing while I'm mid session is near impossible, I tried lowering the UDP to 7 but that made no difference either. My apps run with very little no no lag at all but I need this problem solving as I'm just going to get constant ear ache.

All advice and suggestions welcomed.

Mad Al
03-01-2016, 14:54
Change the UDP setting, it should have different data rates available, set it to something lower (I can't find the original thread with the numbers in it!)

ah, found it
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?40113-HowTo-Companion-App-UDP-Streaming&highlight=udp+server

M. -VIPER- Morgan
03-01-2016, 14:58
deleted

Mad Al
03-01-2016, 15:11
I will add that having had a quick look, even on it's fastest setting (60 per second) it's not exactly OTT on the amount of traffic (under 700kbps).. and it should have no affect on your internet connection.. so I'm guessing your internal WiFi is basically crap..

bradleyland
03-01-2016, 15:13
There have been a number of people reporting similar issues. Unfortunately, the problem appears to be with not-so-good wireless access points. For example, I'm able to run my PS4 on UDP setting 1, and my wireless network (Apple AirPort Extreme) still works fine. At the fastest possible transmission rate, PCars is sending a little under 1 mbps of traffic on your wireless network. That's avery small amount of traffic.

The first thing you can try is to update your wireless device's firmware. If that doesn't work, try turning the UDP rate down to 9 and test it out. If that works, drop the setting to 8 and test again. I know you said it doesn't work on 7, but the ramp up in transmission rate is pretty steep, so it's entirely possible that it will work at 8, but not at 7.

Other than that, there's always the option to replace your wireless device. Plenty of people use the UDP telemetry feature over wireless networks without issue. That means the problem has to be with your gear/network.

mr_belowski
03-01-2016, 15:15
Update you router, your router's firmware, or your missus

TheReaper GT
03-01-2016, 15:23
Update you router, your router's firmware, or your missus

Missus firmware update requires hard connection, I don't think she will let that happen right now... Hahaha

jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 15:24
I will add that having had a quick look, even on it's fastest setting (60 per second) it's not exactly OTT on the amount of traffic (under 700kbps).. and it should have no affect on your internet connection.. so I'm guessing your internal WiFi is basically crap..

are there any tests in can do to get an idea of what my network can handle?


There have been a number of people reporting similar issues. Unfortunately, the problem appears to be with not-so-good wireless access points. For example, I'm able to run my PS4 on UDP setting 1, and my wireless network (Apple AirPort Extreme) still works fine. At the fastest possible transmission rate, PCars is sending a little under 1 mbps of traffic on your wireless network. That's avery small amount of traffic.

The first thing you can try is to update your wireless device's firmware. If that doesn't work, try turning the UDP rate down to 9 and test it out. If that works, drop the setting to 8 and test again. I know you said it doesn't work on 7, but the ramp up in transmission rate is pretty steep, so it's entirely possible that it will work at 8, but not at 7.

Other than that, there's always the option to replace your wireless device. Plenty of people use the UDP telemetry feature over wireless networks without issue. That means the problem has to be with your gear/network.

everything UDP works fine until the Mrs wants to use the Internet, then we hit problems either on her phone or laptop. I shall try 8,9,10 settings later as I have permission;)

bradleyland
03-01-2016, 15:30
OP, if you're interested in any technical details, I did an analysis in the other thread:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43079-UDP-Broadcasting-into-complete-LAN-Are-you-shure-to-want-this&p=1196166&viewfull=1#post1196166

Sloskimo
03-01-2016, 15:35
Buy a really long lan cable :) Anyway, you could try a powerline adapter, should work wonders keeping steady ping times also, considering your wireless does not sound too stable.

bradleyland
03-01-2016, 15:37
are there any tests in can do to get an idea of what my network can handle?

What you're doing currently is a pretty good test ;) Project Cars doesn't do anything out of the ordinary, so just starting from UDP 9 and incrementing the setting downward will find your maximum transmission rate.

Mad Al
03-01-2016, 15:39
are there any tests in can do to get an idea of what my network can handle?



everything UDP works fine until the Mrs wants to use the Internet, then we hit problems either on her phone or laptop. I shall try 8,9,10 settings later as I have permission;)
I recall the Passmark benchmark includes network tests http://www.passmark.com/products/pt.htm




OK, this is what I would do if faced with this problem...

Get a cable router, set it up to allow you to have a separate network on a completely different address range.. connect to the sky box via cable.
Buy a cheap wireless access point, plug it into the router and connect your PS4 + all the stuff you want to use to receive the UDP via the separate wireless network
Make sure the sky box WiFi is sitting at channel 1 and put the access point on 11.

That should keep all the UDP local to your network, but still allow you to see whatever you need on the internet... and basically the other side of the router will be free for the missus to use....

jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 16:12
I recall the Passmark benchmark includes network tests http://www.passmark.com/products/pt.htm




OK, this is what I would do if faced with this problem...

Get a cable router, set it up to allow you to have a separate network on a completely different address range.. connect to the sky box via cable.
Buy a cheap wireless access point, plug it into the router and connect your PS4 + all the stuff you want to use to receive the UDP via the separate wireless network
Make sure the sky box WiFi is sitting at channel 1 and put the access point on 11.

That should keep all the UDP local to your network, but still allow you to see whatever you need on the internet... and basically the other side of the router will be free for the missus to use....

I think that would be a last resort I shall try the further UDP settings and pray it works otherwise I'll be getting another router and that never ends well with me.

My current router is on channel 6, could I allow different devices to connect on a different channel? or is that why I'd need a second router to allow the split.

Did a quick speed test of my internet no idea if this actually tells you anything useful,

224880

also just found this on router IP thingy, useful?

224884

Sloskimo
03-01-2016, 16:33
A speedtest to the outside internet does not really tell you much, the traffic pcars generates is local (meaning it never leaves your own network)

You could try changing the channel yes, might bring positive results, go for 1 and 11 first as Mad Al mentioned. Live in a condo myself and it's wireless mayhem here. that's why I just switched it to a powerline adapter, I could never get wireless stable enough.

ports
03-01-2016, 17:03
Check this site out it might help you out mate .
http://www.netlimiter.com/

jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 17:37
Check this site out it might help you out mate .
http://www.netlimiter.com/

if it's free I'll give it a try after my I've tried the remaining UDP settings

nissan4ever
03-01-2016, 17:47
Sounds like you need a better router for your home.

sirsilver1968
03-01-2016, 17:59
I bought a cheap netgear wireless router as my ps4 and pc are in my mancave upstairs , the router is hooked to a netgear powerline adapter and goes to my home hub 5 downstairs, i use the wireless access point on the router upstairs so crew chief, pcars dash along with my ps4 are all talking very nicely to each other, i have my udp set at 2 and that works for me.

jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 18:41
I bought a cheap netgear wireless router as my ps4 and pc are in my mancave upstairs , the router is hooked to a netgear powerline adapter and goes to my home hub 5 downstairs, i use the wireless access point on the router upstairs so crew chief, pcars dash along with my ps4 are all talking very nicely to each other, i have my udp set at 2 and that works for me.

I had a netgear years ago maybe it's hiding somewhere, I think if my test doesn't work that could be the solution however I've been warned about extra wires/cables already so I could be on to a looser, I pray the test works.

If someone has a form of wiring diagram for the above fix that would be most useful (so I can plan how best to hide it) ;)

bradleyland
03-01-2016, 18:55
I think I'm going to write a guide to this stuff, because it gets technical really quickly. Before you go trying solutions like Netlimiter, it's important to understand why Project Cars is impacting your network.

#1) The problem is specifically isolated to your local wireless network. Networks are built in segments. Your router has two sides (segments): the LAN side is your "local area network", the WAN side is the "wide area network". All of your devices are issued a LAN IP address by your router (think of these like phone extensions within an office). Your PS4 is broadcasting traffic on the LAN only. The traffic never leaves your LAN, so it's not actually affecting your internet connection. You can verify this by testing your internet from a computer connected to an ethernet cable while your PS4 is running.

#2) The bottleneck is your WiFi, not your internet connection. WiFi doesn't work like people think it does. When most people think of WiFi, they think of tiny radios that talk to each other from device to device. The flaw in their thinking is that they believe that the WiFi "channels" can allow multiple devices to talk to each other all at once. This is an incorrect way of thinking of WiFi. Instead, think of your WiFi like an old set of walkie-talkies. Only one person can talk at a time. When PCars broadcasts, it occupies the wireless network briefly.

So that's all well and good, but how do we explain the fact that some people have zero issues, and some people have massive issues. I have a couple of theories, and they all get pretty deep in the weeds. The 802.11 standard has some specific rules that apply to broadcast transmissions. They must be transmitted at the base data rate. The base data rate is determined by the slowest device on your network. So, if someone is connected to your WiFi and has poor signal, their Tx/Rx rates might be below 1 mbps. Additionally, some cheap routers won't even bother trying to establish a base rate, they'll just pick a hard number (like 1 mbps) and dictate that all traffic must be broadcast at that rate.

Based on the transmission rates that I've observed, you can come close to this barrier pretty easily. It's also difficult to say how a router will handle this broadcast WiFi traffic, because 802.11 implementations vary so widely.

In any case, the bottleneck is unquestionably the wireless network, so the best mitigation for these issues is to get the PS4 off the wireless network. If you're not able to run an ethernet cable from your router to your PS4, consider something like a powerline networking solution. You don't need a ton of bandwidth, you just need the PS4 to transmit over ethernet, rather than WiFi. Keep in mind that the broadcast traffic is still going to hit the WiFi network, but you'll eliminate any WiFi transmission rate negotiation issues between the PS4 and the WiFi router.

This is extraneous, but I want to drop it here for anyone who might know a little more about 802.11 networks than I do. You can stop reading here if you're just looking for solutions.

I'm not certain of how broadcast traffic is handled on a WiFi network. For example, if the PS4 transmits broadcast packets, does the WiFi AP retransmit these packets, or do all devices on the WiFi network pick them up at the point of transmission (the PS4 Tx packets)? I'm thinking that because of encryption, the AP will have to retransmit. This would (effectively) double the transmission bandwidth, which could be a source of the problem. Based on some research, it appears that different APs handle this differently. More sophisticated APs create unicast groups which can share encryption keys; so the broadcast transmission only needs to occur once. Other APs only issue one key per device, which would scale the required bandwidth at O(n) where n is the number of devices on the network that need to receive broadcast packets. That would explain why some users have so much trouble with UDP broadcast, while others have no issues at all. If anyone can elucidate on these points/questions, that'd be awesome :)

graveltrap
03-01-2016, 20:57
I had similar problems, using UDP from the PS4 (connected by cable) would throttle the wifi network and even cause lag when playing online (Virgin 50mbs connection) causing me to post in a thread round these parts.

On faster speeds it would literally shut down my wifi network :eek:

So after much head scratching I looked inside my router and at its settings, the first thing I set it to a fixed channel, increased the wifi speed and finally stumbled across a setting that was called multicast pass through, one of these things enabled me to use UDP at 1 and got rid of the lag...

So it could well be a case of doing some research into setup for your specific router, rather than buying a new one!

kevin kirk
03-01-2016, 21:28
Have you tried a different wife?

jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 21:39
I had similar problems, using UDP from the PS4 (connected by cable) would throttle the wifi network and even cause lag when playing online (Virgin 50mbs connection) causing me to post in a thread round these parts.

On faster speeds it would literally shut down my wifi network :eek:

So after much head scratching I looked inside my router and at its settings, the first thing I set it to a fixed channel, increased the wifi speed and finally stumbled across a setting that was called multicast pass through, one of these things enabled me to use UDP at 1 and got rid of the lag...

So it could well be a case of doing some research into setup for your specific router, rather than buying a new one!

I've seen the change channel option and a neighbour has the same as us maybe that doesn't help. Might switch our channel and check the settings you mentioned.

We have since tested on UDP 8 which seemed better, it was allowing her to play bookface games.

jimmyb_84
03-01-2016, 21:42
In any case, the bottleneck is unquestionably the wireless network, so the best mitigation for these issues is to get the PS4 off the wireless network. If you're not able to run an ethernet cable from your router to your PS4, consider something like a powerline networking solution. You don't need a ton of bandwidth, you just need the PS4 to transmit over ethernet, rather than WiFi. Keep in mind that the broadcast traffic is still going to hit the WiFi network, but you'll eliminate any WiFi transmission rate negotiation issues between the PS4 and the WiFi router.


@ bradleyland are you saying I just need to connect PS4 to my current router with an Ethernet cable? Or do you mean a second router. I'm a little thick when it comes to networking stuff (in-fact most things), cheers

madmax2069
03-01-2016, 23:22
@ bradleyland are you saying I just need to connect PS4 to my current router with an Ethernet cable? Or do you mean a second router. I'm a little thick when it comes to networking stuff (in-fact most things), cheers

Yes your current router, using powerline network adapters if distance is a issue (which uses your houses electrical wiring as the network cables).

These are powerline network adapters (theres many different brands, some good, some outright horrable) http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I0MKIDO/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?qid=1451867139&sr=8-12&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=powerline+network+adapter

bradleyland
04-01-2016, 02:22
@ bradleyland are you saying I just need to connect PS4 to my current router with an Ethernet cable? Or do you mean a second router. I'm a little thick when it comes to networking stuff (in-fact most things), cheers

Yeah, I would definitely try hooking your PS4 up to the router with an ethernet cable. It may not resolve the problem entirely, but it may help, depending upon how 802.11 handles broadcast, as well as your network configuration (encryption settings/capabilities).

jimmyb_84
04-01-2016, 09:29
Yeah, I would definitely try hooking your PS4 up to the router with an ethernet cable. It may not resolve the problem entirely, but it may help, depending upon how 802.11 handles broadcast, as well as your network configuration (encryption settings/capabilities).


Yes your current router, using powerline network adapters if distance is a issue (which uses your houses electrical wiring as the network cables).

These are powerline network adapters (theres many different brands, some good, some outright horrable) http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I0MKIDO/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?qid=1451867139&sr=8-12&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=powerline+network+adapter

my router and PS4 are very close so shall dig out an Ethernet cable while I'm in the loft later putting the Christmas decorations away.

Thanks all