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LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 17:19
I'm not here to complain, per se. I'm here to maybe give some advice that the developers might see and make changes to the game that will bring it to the level it was advertised at being. Is was compared to Forza... It's not even on the level of Forza 3...

My Background: I am licensed to race motorcycles and I have been doing so for nearly a decade. I also have been on design teams that have put together a variety of highly successful games. I'm not just talking out of my behind here. I know racing, and I know gaming.


ISSUE #1

Steering - Steering, especially in real life, is not snappy. It doesn't just snap from straight forward to full lock instantly. There is an acceleration/deceleration to the process. Which leads to my next point...

Body Roll - Body roll is the same. The body of the car doesn't just snap to full lean. When you put the two together...

The Result is that the game feels like Nascar '99 on PS1. When the Steering is snappy and the Body Roll is the same, the back end of the car whips out and starts sliding for no reason. This screws up what could be a decently programmed suspension setup.

The Fix - Slow things down. There is a transfer of energy from the steering wheel to the wheels. If you're going to build a simulator, build that transfer into the programming. Show a slow acceleration when there are inputs.

For a better understanding of how those things are done in games, https://youtu.be/AJdEqssNZ-U

ISSUE #2

Braking Line - Here's where I quote T.S. Elliot, "Good poets borrow, great poets steal". Steal from Forza. Period. Your braking line is primitive. It took Turn 10 several games to figure it out, so now you don't have to spend half a decade doing it. Steal the principles.

The purpose of a braking line is to show me where the optimum place is to mash the brakes so I have the desired traction in a corner.

The Fix - Stop calculating the braking distance based on the current speed. Make it predictive (Just like I have to do on the racetrack myself). Predict what speed I will be at if I continue at full throttle and set that braking point. If it's constantly changing, it's annoying. not to mention it's unrealistic to how people really race.



I've got some problems with some other things, like the follow camera, but until I figure out exactly what it is that bothers me and how to fix it, I'll withhold comment.



The Good Things

UI - Great. Period. I think everything is well organized, and despite some reviews I've seen that compare the UI to Windows 10, I think that's an intelligent approach. Modeling UI after popular trending design is a good thing.
Weather Sim - Pretty good. I'd even go as far as saying it's better than Forza 6. At least there is some variable weather, which is more realistic.


Hopefully the Devs see this and make some good changes. Project CARS is a decent game, but it could be so much better. Good luck, and I'll keep following up and playing occasionally to see where it goes.

Fanapryde
03-01-2016, 17:36
They use braking lines in motorcycle racing ??

Seriously: braking lines are an indication, not exact science. There are too much variables.
I never use them anyway, but I guess the lines may be of some use to learn tracks.

Jaykay495
03-01-2016, 17:55
I was at Monterey during September last year, just down the road from Laguna Seca. It rained.

havocc
03-01-2016, 18:05
Devs stated that driving line isn't supposed to be a holy grail for braking points but just a helping hand for beginners, finding best braking point is up to the player

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 18:21
It' easy to simplify it if you simplify the variables. The only thing that matters is the optimum braking point (Highest possible speed of that vehicle at entry) and what the braking line should be for that variable. If you know you botched the previous corner and you're coming in slower than usual, you can brake later.

I wish we could see a game that just put the indication off to the side of the track. Sort of like the 300, 200, 100 ft signs that are off to the side of tracks normally. Therefore it wouldn't be a line, but just an indicator. Racing Line and Braking Point could be separate.

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 18:22
I was at Monterey during September last year, just down the road from Laguna Seca. It rained.

When I was at Laguna last year a few droplets hit the track and they cancelled the session.

EDIT: Granted, that was on a motorcycle. I may have mis-spoken. The threat of careening off the track isn't as bad in a car.

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 18:29
Devs stated that driving line isn't supposed to be a holy grail for braking points but just a helping hand for beginners, finding best braking point is up to the player

That's PR lingo for "We implemented a primitive braking line"

The appropriate response is, "It's a primitive game with a primitive braking line and we will make it better"

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 18:31
I know it sounds like I'm attacking the game - and let there be no mistake, I am - but it's only in an attempt to bring some polish to what has the potential to be an amazing game that can, in a few years, contend with the current leaders in racing sim.

Sankyo
03-01-2016, 18:56
About Issue #1: it all depends on the suspension set-up. Race cars have much stiffer suspension than road cars, so they're not going to roll and lean as road cars do. If you want them to, though, soften the suspension and see what happens.

Krus Control
03-01-2016, 19:07
Yeah I'm on the same page as Remco about issue #1. This snappiness can be fixed to how you like it in all classes by adjusting springs/anti roll bars or by changing steering ratio and sometimes by changing arm angle if you use a FFB wheel.

Mahjik
03-01-2016, 19:13
(Like not allowing rain at Laguna Seca. It rarely rains there, and when it dies, they down the track).

That was some decent feedback until you got to here... They may shut down Laguna in the rain for motorcycles, but they do not for cars. Just browse the many videos out there (no need for me to link them)...

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 19:16
I'm using an Xbox One controller, which means there's no feedback. When using a controller, it just snaps. No matter the input device, a wheel shouldn't be able to get to full lock instantly. It's not an input device problem/solution, it's a programming one.

I see the problem in a lot of primitive games. Dungeon Defenders, a 3PS/Tower Defense game, is super snappy with a keyboard and mouse, but they programmed it to pick up the acceleration in an Xbox controller. The overall game-play experience between the 2 input devices is dramatic. If they want consistency with game-play for Project CARS, they have to program it themselves.

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 19:17
That was some decent feedback until you got to here... They may shut down Laguna in the rain for motorcycles, but they do not for cars. Just browse the many videos out there (no need for me to link them)...

I'll admit I mis-spoke there. I'll even go as far as editing it in the OP. In a lot of ways, Project CARS weather is better than Forza 6.

bradleyland
03-01-2016, 19:22
LonelyAtTheTop, I'm curious if you're using a gamepad or a wheel. IMO, a lot of the car characteristics you're describing are endemic to controller usage. Not saying you shouldn't use a controller. To the contrary, I think PCars could use some serious improvement to gamepad controls, but it's a factor worth understanding. I'd agree with much of your input from a controller user's perspective, but since I've transitioned to a gaming wheel, I feel like the game has taken on a whole different character. I wonder whether the devs even feel that gamepad refinement is a priority for their racing sim. I could understand it if they don't. It is a "sim" after all, and there isn't much "sim" about driving with a gamepad.

Just some points worth understanding.

Mahjik
03-01-2016, 19:22
I'm using an Xbox One controller, which means there's no feedback.

Try these settings:


My preferred settings (same for DS4 and XB1):

Deadzone=10
Sensitivity=20
Speed sensitivity=70
Filtering=50
Input Mode=3

Mad Al
03-01-2016, 19:28
Try these settings:

Better still, try Mode 2.. it gets rid of the horrible deadzone twitchy issues
Deadzone = 0
Sensitivity = 5
Speed Sens = 55
Filtering 25

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 19:30
Sorry, that was a repost. My internet is going a little cray cray.

LonelyAtTheTop
03-01-2016, 19:32
Absolutely a great point, Bradleyland. If it's not a priority, it explains why it so poorly programmed.

To be clear, i'm using an Xbox One Controller, and I will try some of the setting recommended.

Haiden
03-01-2016, 19:42
Issue #1 - These things can be adjusted to your liking using in the global settings.

Issue #2 - The braking line is for arcade players or those not used to sim or new to racing in general. It's a rough guide. In reality, braking points and your line into a corner changes, depending on your driving style, tuning setup, and strategy at the moment (overtaking, defending, etc). If your experienced and can figure these out for yourself, then just turn it off.

Seelenkrank
03-01-2016, 20:17
I never use them anyway, but I guess the lines may be of some use to learn tracks.

no, learning a track is based on trail and error.
if your too fast for this corner you leave the track and crash.
in the next round you had the chance to correct this error.
until the point you can drive the track without leaving the track itself and then you can learn to be faster!
its a hard way to learn but imho the best way without looking all the time on a fancy coloured line telling me how to drive.
(because you can adapt the learned things on other tracks with similar corners)
if you only follow blinded a coloured line you did learn nothing!

Tbolt47
03-01-2016, 21:15
no, learning a track is based on trail and error.
if your too fast for this corner you leave the track and crash.
in the next round you had the chance to correct this error.
until the point you can drive the track without leaving the track itself and then you can learn to be faster!
its a hard way to learn but imho the best way without looking all the time on a fancy coloured line telling me how to drive.
(because you can adapt the learned things on other tracks with similar corners)
if you only follow blinded a coloured line you did learn nothing!

Completely agree, the best way is to learn the track is using visual cues on the track itself for braking, it can be a bit of work on fairly featureless tracks, but it's much more rewarding and makes things easier when you've got a track full of other cars. I only used a driving line once to learn a track, but all I really did was learn to follow the line, I didn't really learn the track until I turned it off.

kevin kirk
03-01-2016, 21:15
The game comes out of the box setting in the middle of a wide range of setting and options. You have to set the game up to work how you think it should work. The only thing we can ask SMS for is to give us the correct options that can make the game go from one end to the other in terms of how the game plays,handles,and functions. They have done that. The tools are there for you to set the game to handle and function the way you think it should.

nhitrac
03-01-2016, 22:01
I think youre the first person to say that the UI is great :confused:

Fanapryde
03-01-2016, 22:06
no, learning a track is based on trail and error.
if your too fast for this corner you leave the track and crash.
in the next round you had the chance to correct this error.
until the point you can drive the track without leaving the track itself and then you can learn to be faster!
its a hard way to learn but imho the best way without looking all the time on a fancy coloured line telling me how to drive.
(because you can adapt the learned things on other tracks with similar corners)
if you only follow blinded a coloured line you did learn nothing!
Let there be no mistake. I agree with you, that is why I never use it.
It is of no use in a sim and it is a bit weird OP brings this up as being a flaw...

Patrick Kulinski
03-01-2016, 22:57
The game comes out of the box setting in the middle of a wide range of setting and options. You have to set the game up to work how you think it should work. The only thing we can ask SMS for is to give us the correct options that can make the game go from one end to the other in terms of how the game plays,handles,and functions. They have done that. The tools are there for you to set the game to handle and function the way you think it should.
QFT.

@OP: It's worth taking half an hour in order to find the settings that fit your style the best. In my case, when I played GTR2 with a cheap gamepad, I aimed for...
- a linear steering
- no speed impact
- the lowest deadzone possible before the steering becomes an issue
- no damping in order to be fast with my imputs.

What you write sounds like could use more damping, making the steering wheel angle changes happen slower. Simply experiment with what you have, and if you have questions about one option or the other then ask us, there's lots of people who are happy to help.

Haiden
03-01-2016, 23:00
Completely agree, the best way is to learn the track is using visual cues on the track itself for braking, it can be a bit of work on fairly featureless tracks, but it's much more rewarding and makes things easier when you've got a track full of other cars. I only used a driving line once to learn a track, but all I really did was learn to follow the line, I didn't really learn the track until I turned it off.


Let there be no mistake. I agree with you, that is why I never use it.
It is of no use in a sim and it is a bit weird OP brings this up as being a flaw...

I also thought it was weird that he mentioned that, and that he seems to suggest there's only one braking line through a corner. You can actually learn the track faster without the race line. When you use the line, you watch the line, and don't pay as much attention to the track details. Without the line, your brain does what it does best, pattern recognition and starts mapping the track. You also learn to read track markers. It's actually not that hard to tell which way to the track is turning, once you learn to read the markers. But you can't do that when you're staring at the race line.

Ixoye56
04-01-2016, 00:41
Breaking line is a great tool when learning a track-

Haiden
04-01-2016, 03:05
Breaking line is a great tool when learning a track-

I guess it can be, if you insist on starting fast. But if you approach it like you would in real life, it's not necessary. In RL, you wouldn't hit a new track at race speed. You would take it slow and build your speed lap after lap as you learned the track and find your own breaking points. If you do that in the game, you won't need the braking line. :)

Silraed
04-01-2016, 03:32
Breaking line is a great tool when learning a track-

I disagree. It might help you get up to speed quicker, but it is not a good thing in the long run. When you are using the braking line you are not learning to pick up scenery that can be used for references and you are not truly ingraining that information in your mind. It could potentially hinder learning alternate lines through corners as well.

theothermexico
04-01-2016, 03:48
I disagree. It might help you get up to speed quicker, but it is not a good thing in the long run. When you are using the braking line you are not learning to pick up scenery that can be used for references and you are not truly ingraining that information in your mind. It could potentially hinder learning alternate lines through corners as well.

I disagree, as much as I hated assists like this when they first started showing up I've come to love them.
If you play a many hours a week, or just a few on a set track it's pointless to have. But if you hop between all the tracks or only have time for a couple of hours a month or even split your time between this and another racer I've found them to be invaluable for jogging my memory.
They're also a great safety net for when you're locked in a big battle and focusing too heavily on the cars around you as the ai can brake very late. Seeing the flash of red on the road ahead makes you more aware of your surroundings.
While the line and braking areas it provides is hella slow it still gives you a great starting point to work up from.
While I can't speak on behalf of anyone, I wouldn't be suprised if many drivers from amateur to pro secretly wish for such a thing in the real world when learning a new track to get up to speed quicker

RobMUFC1987
04-01-2016, 05:14
I disagree, as much as I hated assists like this when they first started showing up I've come to love them.
If you play a many hours a week, or just a few on a set track it's pointless to have. But if you hop between all the tracks or only have time for a couple of hours a month or even split your time between this and another racer I've found them to be invaluable for jogging my memory.
They're also a great safety net for when you're locked in a big battle and focusing too heavily on the cars around you as the ai can brake very late. Seeing the flash of red on the road ahead makes you more aware of your surroundings.
While the line and braking areas it provides is hella slow it still gives you a great starting point to work up from.
While I can't speak on behalf of anyone, I wouldn't be suprised if many drivers from amateur to pro secretly wish for such a thing in the real world when learning a new track to get up to speed quicker

With the line on, you learn to follow a line. Take that line off and you realise you haven't learned anything. You'll learn the basic layout so you know a corner is coming but you won't have a clue where to brake or when to turn in. Is it a late apex corner? Is it an early apex? Where do you put the power down?

I used to have the line on all the time but when I turned it off, I had to re-learn everything but at the same time, it turned into a different game and a lot more fun.

theothermexico
04-01-2016, 05:36
With the line on, you learn to follow a line. Take that line off and you realise you haven't learned anything. You'll learn the basic layout so you know a corner is coming but you won't have a clue where to brake or when to turn in. Is it a late apex corner? Is it an early apex? Where do you put the power down?

I used to have the line on all the time but when I turned it off, I had to re-learn everything but at the same time, it turned into a different game and a lot more fun.

Hmm my experiences are quite the opposite, I guess it just shows that no two people receive the same level of benefit or on the other hand, disadvantage from each aspect of the game.
I bet there's components of the game that cause me grief that have no negative effects on you whatsoever.
It's interesting to think about

hkraft300
04-01-2016, 05:37
All good points about the braking line.
Iirc Ian Bell said the driving line assist is purposefully flawed and not the fastest line. Its only intended to get you round quick-ish but its not optimal or the fastest.
One's driving line must change from setting qualifying laps/times, in a sprint race, in an endurance race, in traffic, setting up/making a pass, defending position etc
Adaptability to your situation on track is something you don't learn with the driving line on.
And ultimately, its f*ing hideous.

So, OP, what do you mean you have no feel/feedback through the controller? Is your rumble effects turned on? On the PS4 my controller is getting the same ffb signal from the game as a wheel would. I'd recommend trying the controller settings posted above.
This game takes much longer to learn the controller behaviour (input vs output) than something like Forza.

Also Forza 5/6 driving line is much more dynamic. That title doesn't have dynamic weather that actively affects the car you drive. Pcars has dynamic weather and sometime s I've hated it and its cost me podiums having not set up my car for cooling dusk conditions.
But it was gorgeous: scenery you fail to appreciate if you're staring at green/yellow/red abomination.

Shinzah
04-01-2016, 05:37
With the line on, you learn to follow a line. Take that line off and you realise you haven't learned anything. You'll learn the basic layout so you know a corner is coming but you won't have a clue where to brake or when to turn in. Is it a late apex corner? Is it an early apex? Where do you put the power down?

I used to have the line on all the time but when I turned it off, I had to re-learn everything but at the same time, it turned into a different game and a lot more fun.

There's a problem with this train of thought. I don't actually use the line to learn anything. I use the contrast of the line in order to see. This is necessary for me in a game because even on a large television I can't sight marker boards as effectively as I could even in reality.

If more simulators employed this, or the giant honking signs like in Raceroom, I'd have many hours more fun being able to actually maintain pace.

Also the Forza braking line is godawful for my driving style and I've never used the red or yellow bits in almost any game for any objective reason other than maybe as a safety feature to judge the distance to the corner. I'd actually prefer a line that didn't change colours, but then I'd also like games in general to take people with poor eyesight, depth perception and colourblindness into account. Unfortunately because of the low amount of consumers with these things the costs in development don't usually line up for this.

As an aside, driving line aids can be useful for average users but also can be a nuisance. The line itself rarely takes into account the actual width of the car but in its usual design is meant to be a centerpoint. In this manner, it would never show an ideal classical line through a corner and I think it'd be beneficial if developers stopped using this practice and instead used the line as the indication of the inside wheels trajectory. Especially since in driving lines largely current form in racing games - it is not teaching the classical racing line effectively, it's teaching a series of "best we can do" approximations which if taken as gospel, leads ultimately to poor driving habits.

Edit: Double aside, in games with weather why are these lines still showing the dry line anyway?

hkraft300
04-01-2016, 05:42
Something like 1/3 of men have colour perception issues to some degree. That's not an insignificant gaming population mate!
I don't have great eyes either. Struggling for my braking points at Hockenheim Classic (and la Sarthe a little) because the markers are too small/far away to see.

Shinzah
04-01-2016, 05:44
Something like 1/3 of men have colour perception issues to some degree. That's not an insignificant gaming population mate!
I don't have great eyes either. Struggling for my braking points at Hockenheim Classic (and la Sarthe a little) because the markers are too small/far away to see.

Hockenheim Classic is one of my favourite tracks of ever, and I'd be hopeless without my neon green abomination ;-;

RobMUFC1987
04-01-2016, 06:49
I only use Brake Markers at Monza into turn 1 and Parabolica. Everywhere else, I use other things, like marshall posts or the bridge at the 2nd chicane at Monza for example. Heck, 75% of my braking comes from the road itself because of the tyre marks in a braking zone. Only thing the line would be good for is fog and night time

Liquid7394
04-01-2016, 08:01
Issue 1 is gamepad related, I don't have those issues on my wheel but when I used a controller I did. Ian Bell has said they'll improve controller support in the sequel.

Issue 2 doesn't affect me since I don't use racing lines so I can't comment on it.

I agree the weather is good. But I completely disagree on the UI, it's messy, slow, ugly, and annoying to use. Some of the pre release UI looked better imo.

hkraft300
04-01-2016, 08:17
The only thing that annoys me about the UI is track list scrolling.
Otherwise I was a little lost in the first 5 minutes but found my way around easy enough

havocc
04-01-2016, 09:15
The only thing that annoys me about the UI is track list scrolling.
Otherwise I was a little lost in the first 5 minutes but found my way around easy enough

It's annoying even with the mouse, bigger icons instead of plain text would be better

Mascot
04-01-2016, 09:22
Lost me at "UI - Great".

Haiden
04-01-2016, 11:19
I disagree, as much as I hated assists like this when they first started showing up I've come to love them.
If you play a many hours a week, or just a few on a set track it's pointless to have. But if you hop between all the tracks or only have time for a couple of hours a month or even split your time between this and another racer I've found them to be invaluable for jogging my memory.
They're also a great safety net for when you're locked in a big battle and focusing too heavily on the cars around you as the ai can brake very late. Seeing the flash of red on the road ahead makes you more aware of your surroundings.
While the line and braking areas it provides is hella slow it still gives you a great starting point to work up from.
While I can't speak on behalf of anyone, I wouldn't be suprised if many drivers from amateur to pro secretly wish for such a thing in the real world when learning a new track to get up to speed quicker


I jump from track, and from game to game, and I never use the line. You just need to start slowly and build up to race speed. The reason you find this difficult is because you've been using the line. If you stop using the line, you will find it hard at first, but you'll get used to it and eventually be able to get up to race speed with 5-10 laps of hitting a new track, depending on track length and complexity. It won't be your best time, but you'll be driving hard.

And the race line is terrible for when you're locked in a battle. That's when you should be paying attention to everything except starting at a line on the ground. Seeing the flash of red doesn't give you more situational awareness. It just tells you to hit the brakes. But that's based on the corner, not your current position or strategy--overtaking or defending. The race lines doesn't realize you're running wheel to wheel with another car and being forced to take a wider line through the corner. The race line is not your friend. :)

Roger Prynne
04-01-2016, 11:31
Plus the fact it's ugly :smile-new:

theothermexico
04-01-2016, 11:36
I jump from track, and from game to game, and I never use the line. You just need to start slowly and build up to race speed. The reason you find this difficult is because you've been using the line. If you stop using the line, you will find it hard at first, but you'll get used to it and eventually be able to get up to race speed with 10 laps of hitting a new track. It won't be your best time, but you'll driving hard.

And the race line is terrible for when you're locked in a battle. That's when you should paying attention to everything, but starting at a line on the ground. Seeing the flash of red doesn't give you more situational awareness. It just tells you to hit the brakes. But that's based on the corner, not you current position or strategy--overtaking or defending. The race lines doesn't realize you're running wheel to wheel with another car and being forced to take a wider line through the corner.

I got sidetracked halfway through writing that so I didn't really explain myself at all.

I personally do a bulk of racing in low light and/or inclement weather, so it's my way of not missing things in said conditions if I'm too focused on the cars around me. At that the red doesn't make me hit the brakes, it just makes me go "duck! Where even am i?" Due to the fact that if I'm in battle I'm locked in on the rear of the car in front putting on as much pressure as possible.

Until the braking only line was added I had only used the race line assist for a week or two. I had the same pace with and without, but due to my forgetfulness on most tracks it took me much longer to get into a rhythm as I tend to class hop as well as track hop. Lately my lack of free time has meant that it takes a full week to do an event (as in two practice sessions, qual, and race) so I keep needing reminders there to ignore.

But this is completely my personal experience. Not everyone is the same and I understand that, just providing my reasoning along with some assumptions to provide a counterpoint, even if it is as a minority

RobMUFC1987
04-01-2016, 13:02
For class hopping, braking points are roughly the same unless you're driving different eras of cars. Road cars/old race cars you will need to brake earlier. Just remember modern cars have good brakes and usually the faster the car, the better the brakes. GT cars will brake around the same distance as formula cars for example

hkraft300
04-01-2016, 13:44
Speaking of inclement weather, don't reckon heavy fog should be in this game.
Maybe in a rally but would a circuit race be held in visibility that bad?
At night if the track and/or car lights were a little more effective, the driving line could be done away with?

Edit: GT cars take a bit longer to stop (from a lower speed) than prototypes, which take a bit longer than formula cars again. But the braking point doesn't vary a whole lot and lines are slightly different.
Well it does for me, anyway. Some guys can brake harder in GTs.

Dorny
04-01-2016, 14:49
My 2 cents:

Braking line:
This is to help absolute novices to get going and keep them on the track, its not meant to be used for making the best laptimes. Once you know the car and track you should turn off the braking line. Yes forza's braking line is better but I come across a lot of forza players that still have it on after many hours of playing the game and are essentially playing follow the line, which makes them slow and also predictable.

For me once your above medium settings it should be off and on hard/hardcore should not be an option at all. As at this stage of difficulty if you cant even judge the racing line or corner entry speed from the surrounds or feel of the car you should not be on harder difficulty. Its training wheels on a bike, they are there to start you off, the moment you have your balance you take them off and never use them again.

Steering:
Pretty much everything your saying is due to the gamepad input support and settings not being that great. Pcars is amazing with a steering wheel but iffy for gamepads.

UI: Its not remotely good, its long winded and backwards and has no consistency in its flow or appearance. At best you can say its mostly functional.

hkraft300
04-01-2016, 14:57
Pcars is amazing with gamepad. The best, because the cars do as you tell it.
Just that it requires for you to use it as you would use a wheel.

Plato99
04-01-2016, 15:19
I jump from track, and from game to game, and I never use the line. You just need to start slowly and build up to race speed. The reason you find this difficult is because you've been using the line. If you stop using the line, you will find it hard at first, but you'll get used to it and eventually be able to get up to race speed with 5-10 laps of hitting a new track, depending on track length and complexity. It won't be your best time, but you'll be driving hard.

And the race line is terrible for when you're locked in a battle. That's when you should be paying attention to everything except starting at a line on the ground. Seeing the flash of red doesn't give you more situational awareness. It just tells you to hit the brakes. But that's based on the corner, not your current position or strategy--overtaking or defending. The race lines doesn't realize you're running wheel to wheel with another car and being forced to take a wider line through the corner. The race line is not your friend. :)

Could not agree more! I had a conversation with a friend at the weekend about the same thing. Having a right task convincing him that he'd be quicker with the line off !!

kevin kirk
04-01-2016, 15:37
I allways considered the racing line as sort of a tip to the area where the AI is braking at and I need to be braking later than they do. Not so much to were I should be braking at. That's what the sign boards are for.

Lewis Puppy
04-01-2016, 23:30
There's not much to learn, if anything from using the racing line.

Shinzah
05-01-2016, 07:02
For class hopping, braking points are roughly the same unless you're driving different eras of cars. Road cars/old race cars you will need to brake earlier. Just remember modern cars have good brakes and usually the faster the car, the better the brakes. GT cars will brake around the same distance as formula cars for example

This is kind of ridiculous. While there is some transferable skills, between even cars in the *same* class I have almost entirely different setups and driving techniques.

The Yellowbird isn't set up, nor does it drive like anything else in its class. The GTE cars don't handle anything like their GT3 cousins and the GT3's don't handle exactly like GT4's, either.

Boiling this down to "Oh well it's roughly the same" is bad practice in a game of inches. A difference of a few feet of braking can spell the difference between having a good mastery of the race car and running with the also rans. Know your weapon and your battlefield, don't treat different things "roughly the same" lest you decide to use a mortar in a duel.

RobMUFC1987
05-01-2016, 09:12
I said braking was roughly the same not the handling. Mid corner and corner exit behavior are different with each car/setup

danowat
05-01-2016, 09:37
Pcars is amazing with gamepad. The best, because the cars do as you tell it.
Just that it requires for you to use it as you would use a wheel.

It really isn't, the developers know that pad implementation is poorly done, and have said it will be improved in the future.

PCars pad implementation is nothing more than emulating a steering wheel, which means translating a circumferential movement of hundreds of millimeters to a linear movement of, what, less than 10 millimeters?, not only is it not good enough, it's also wildly unrealistic.

Sit in a real car (or even a steering wheel input device) and how quickly can you turn the steering from lock to lock?, now compare it to how quickly you can turn the wheel from lock to lock using a gamepad, it is nowhere near realistic.

You can flatter yourself all you want, but translating the movement of a steering wheel directly to the short linear throw of a gamepad stick is not "good".

This issue is also related to the point about the cars suspension dipping and raising, it's because the steering isn't supposed to be moved that fast.

Shinzah
05-01-2016, 09:48
I said braking was roughly the same not the handling. Mid corner and corner exit behavior are different with each car/setup

I...

https://media.giphy.com/media/TdmTcdoN3egaQ/giphy.gif

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 11:00
It really isn't, the developers know that pad implementation is poorly done, and have said it will be improved in the future.

PCars pad implementation is nothing more than emulating a steering wheel, which means translating a circumferential movement of hundreds of millimeters to a linear movement of, what, less than 10 millimeters?, not only is it not good enough, it's also wildly unrealistic.

Sit in a real car (or even a steering wheel input device) and how quickly can you turn the steering from lock to lock?, now compare it to how quickly you can turn the wheel from lock to lock using a gamepad, it is nowhere near realistic.

You can flatter yourself all you want, but translating the movement of a steering wheel directly to the short linear throw of a gamepad stick is not "good".

This issue is also related to the point about the cars suspension dipping and raising, it's because the steering isn't supposed to be moved that fast.

For the same reasons you say its bad, I say its good. It is as direct as a wheel. Agreed, that makes it more difficult. The learning curve is steep and I've figured out the settings that work for me: seems only a few have managed that.
There are filters in game to mitigate and make more use of the range and speed of motion a thumbstick can provide: controller filtering which seems to slow the rate of steering lock to lock, and speed sensitivity which limits steering angle according to vehicle speed.
Agreed: average pad player won't experiment with or figure out what the settings do. I think SMS have made the decision like you said to improve the gamepad implementation. Hopefully by then I'd have moved to a wheel.
Using a gamepad to control a car is wildly unrealistic. I can turn my wheel lock to lock quite quickly when needed though ;)

danowat
05-01-2016, 11:05
For the same reasons you say its bad, I say its good. It is as direct as a wheel.

If your idea of good is artificially harder!, I get that some people think that hard = realistic, but the reality is different.

A wheel provides the proper level of granularity of control, without this level of granularity of control, then direct translation of a steering wheel to a pad just doesn't work very well, I'd love to see a video of you drifting with a pad, as oversteer correction and holding the car on the very edge of grip is very difficult with a pad (in this game).

Yes, there are control options, but these don't go far enough, and the default settings are just atrocious.

It is very possible to have a realistic simulator AND good pad implementation, it's been done a number of times.

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 11:32
Ye na
Opposite lock I'll sometimes catch if I'm on it fast enough.
Drifting requires precision in steering that I can't do with a thunbstick. I'm good but I'm not that good.
It is difficult the way gamepads have been made to steer so directly (millimeters for throttle and brakes don't help either), and I know its limitations in a sim regardless of how much "filtering" is thrown in. Just that I want to drive myself and not have it driven for me.
Doesn't matter how good SMS implement gamepads, at the end of the day its a sim. Controlling the in-game cars need to be looked at as if its a real car. That's the whole idea of a sim, no? Its why I'm saving for a wheel :)

danowat
05-01-2016, 13:09
Doesn't matter how good SMS implement gamepads, at the end of the day its a sim.

You're missing the point, it does matter, they are done badly in PCars and can be done a lot better.

havocc
05-01-2016, 14:30
Brakes aren't the Main difference between old and new cars, it's more about downforce and tyres that prevent wheel locking

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 14:43
You're missing the point, it does matter, they are done badly in PCars and can be done a lot better.

To what end? Having the game drive the car for you if you're using a gamepad? I'm sure there are other solutions. I like the directness, apparently most don't. Its harder for me to be competitive and I can't drive half the cars in the game. Looking forward to getting a wheel. I'll be faster and more consistent with it.
Though nothing is perfect and improvement is always welcome. SMS will do it different next time.


Brakes aren't the Main difference between old and new cars, it's more about downforce and tyres that prevent wheel locking

More grip = ability to throw in stronger brakes. Better materials gives better brake endurance.
Speaking of which: I'd like to see HUD telemetry colours adjust to brake type like tyres do. Older cars work effectively in cooler temps, steel vs carbons...
Though what use it is now that UDP streaming is available and 3rd party apps giving more detail, I suppose some test sessions are in order :)

Schnizz58
05-01-2016, 15:21
I suspect the braking line is the way it is deliberately, not due to lazy design. Why should the game show you where the optimal brake points are? And further, why would you want it to? Learning braking points is part of learning a track. If you want to use the line to lead you around by the nose on a new track until you've memorized it, that's fine. But I don't think it should just hand you the optimal brake points without you having to do any work yourself. My advice, turn off the line and find your own brake points.

Plato99
05-01-2016, 15:38
I suspect the braking line is the way it is deliberately, not due to lazy design. Why should the game show you where the optimal brake points are? And further, why would you want it to? Learning braking points is part of learning a track. If you want to use the line to lead you around by the nose on a new track until you've memorized it, that's fine. But I don't think it should just hand you the optimal brake points without you having to do any work yourself. My advice, turn off the line and find your own brake points.

Luffield corner at Silverstone being the ideal case in point. While the AI take the early brake / wide line entry approach (as also indicated by the green/red line), it's possible to overtake the car in front on every lap by going slightly off-piste and braking much later in to the turn.
The green/red line is ok for learning new tracks, but after a few laps one;s lap times will tumble once it's turned off and you find your own groove.

Schnizz58
05-01-2016, 15:49
If I can do it, anybody can Plato.

Shinzah
05-01-2016, 17:57
Brakes aren't the Main difference between old and new cars, it's more about downforce and tyres that prevent wheel locking

The optimum operating temperature between steel and carbon would like to have a talk about this contest.

So would the construction of drum and disk brakes.

kevin kirk
05-01-2016, 19:55
It really isn't, the developers know that pad implementation is poorly done, and have said it will be improved in the future.

PCars pad implementation is nothing more than emulating a steering wheel, which means translating a circumferential movement of hundreds of millimeters to a linear movement of, what, less than 10 millimeters?, not only is it not good enough, it's also wildly unrealistic.

Sit in a real car (or even a steering wheel input device) and how quickly can you turn the steering from lock to lock?, now compare it to how quickly you can turn the wheel from lock to lock using a gamepad, it is nowhere near realistic.

You can flatter yourself all you want, but translating the movement of a steering wheel directly to the short linear throw of a gamepad stick is not "good".

This issue is also related to the point about the cars suspension dipping and raising, it's because the steering isn't supposed to be moved that fast.
.....The controller doesn't go to quickly to lock to lock. It doesn't even go from lock to lock unless you have the speed sensitivity set to zero,and I think we all would agree that would be a wrong setting. If your controller seems it is turning the wheel to fast or is jerky than that is a controller setting issue.

danowat
06-01-2016, 08:37
.....The controller doesn't go to quickly to lock to lock. It doesn't even go from lock to lock unless you have the speed sensitivity set to zero,and I think we all would agree that would be a wrong setting. If your controller seems it is turning the wheel to fast or is jerky than that is a controller setting issue.

It would be ok if the speed sensitivity worked well, to alleviate the issues you have to crank the setting up, which means you can't get enough lock on fast sweeping corners, so if you want to have enough lock in those, you have to turn it down, which means there isn't enough during slow corners.

I find it bizarre that people are insistent on defending the pad implementation in PCars when the developers themselves have said it's poorly implemented and will be improved in PCars 2.

Pamellaaa
06-01-2016, 09:40
The optimum operating temperature between steel and carbon would like to have a talk about this contest.

So would the construction of drum and disk brakes.

While we are on this subject can we debate the conjecture that bigger/better brakes don't slow you down any quicker at all the first time you use them assuming that the standard brakes are capable of getting the tyres locked up, the better options simply provide better/different feedback and control and much greater longevity, fade resistance and operating temperature range.

*lights the blue touchpaper and stands well back.

Mad Al
06-01-2016, 09:47
It would be ok if the speed sensitivity worked well, to alleviate the issues you have to crank the setting up, which means you can't get enough lock on fast sweeping corners, so if you want to have enough lock in those, you have to turn it down, which means there isn't enough during slow corners.

I find it bizarre that people are insistent on defending the pad implementation in PCars when the developers themselves have said it's poorly implemented and will be improved in PCars 2.

So nobody is allowed to have found a good setting, that they personally find perfectly usable, just because the devs have said they will do a better job in PC2 ?

danowat
06-01-2016, 09:55
So nobody is allowed to have found a good setting, that they personally find perfectly usable, just because the devs have said they will do a better job in PC2 ?

Now you're just putting words into my mouth, because that's not what I said.

Even if someone has found a usable setting, I am sure that with better pad implementation, it would be better.

The settings is use are, mostly, usable, and I am, mostly, competitive, but there are a number of circumstances where the issues with using a pad in PCars exacerbates things that wouldn't be an issue in other games.

I know any criticism against PCars is met (generally) with contempt here.

Photonmonkey
06-01-2016, 10:51
Now you're just putting words into my mouth, because that's not what I said.

Even if someone has found a usable setting, I am sure that with better pad implementation, it would be better.

The settings is use are, mostly, usable, and I am, mostly, competitive, but there are a number of circumstances where the issues with using a pad in PCars exacerbates things that wouldn't be an issue in other games.

I know any criticism against PCars is met (generally) with contempt here.

Nothing is perfect and to be honest I prefer what we have to 'other' games that I have played where you have no control over the way that filtering and speed sensitivity are applied to a stick input. I left Forza because of the forced steering 'fairy' and don't want to end up back in that position. SMS could probably improve on what they have but as a sim you are never going to have any where near the same control as with a wheel, you have to appreciate the limitations of a pad as a steering device.

I would like to know what games you have played where it is implemented better?

danowat
06-01-2016, 10:53
Live for speed for one, and I'll be interested to see how AC tackles it when it comes to console.

Plato99
06-01-2016, 11:09
If I can do it, anybody can Plato.

Same with automatic gears. With auto gears you cant crash down through a couple of gears to give that instant hit of engine-braking. You have to apply the physical brakes until the automatic gearbox declares the revs to have fallen below the powerband, usually resulting in no downshift at all, the car being in too high a gear for the exit of the corner, and limping along like a mobility scooter.
Manual gears will shave multiple seconds off a lap and it isn't at all difficult to drive with them once you've practiced.

Shinzah
06-01-2016, 12:19
While we are on this subject can we debate the conjecture that bigger/better brakes don't slow you down any quicker at all the first time you use them assuming that the standard brakes are capable of getting the tyres locked up, the better options simply provide better/different feedback and control and much greater longevity, fade resistance and operating temperature range.

*lights the blue touchpaper and stands well back.

This is oversimplified but partially true, it's not specifically about the speed of deceleration it's more about the control over the deceleration.

F1 drivers will for example use different brake packages inside the same general *type* of brakes and that will make their lap times overall better. Still the idea that brakes are all just a roughly similar thing that works roughly similar ways and don't aren't affective is outside of the realm of racing physics. Even making a simple adjustment to the bias can completely change the attitude of the race car and shouldn't be written off.

Brakes are incredibly important to the handling of a racecar, in higher tiers of motorsport with driver adjustments to them, there are drivers that will adjust their brakes almost on a per-corner basis. A greater amount of control over the car directly translates to a greater amount of control over the overall lap times. While brakes will of course always function in the same way unless they have some sort of failure, there is a wide disparity in how they are used.

havocc
06-01-2016, 12:48
Same with automatic gears. With auto gears you cant crash down through a couple of gears to give that instant hit of engine-braking. You have to apply the physical brakes until the automatic gearbox declares the revs to have fallen below the powerband, usually resulting in no downshift at all, the car being in too high a gear for the exit of the corner, and limping along like a mobility scooter.
Manual gears will shave multiple seconds off a lap and it isn't at all difficult to drive with them once you've practiced.

The best thing about manual shifting is that you can try different gears at corners to find out which is the fastest, many times i say "let's try this corner with 4th instead of 3rd" and i often see that this translates in less engine braking and faster corner speed

Pamellaaa
06-01-2016, 12:56
This is oversimplified but partially true, it's not specifically about the speed of deceleration it's more about the control over the deceleration.

F1 drivers will for example use different brake packages inside the same general *type* of brakes and that will make their lap times overall better. Still the idea that brakes are all just a roughly similar thing that works roughly similar ways and don't aren't affective is outside of the realm of racing physics. Even making a simple adjustment to the bias can completely change the attitude of the race car and shouldn't be written off.

Brakes are incredibly important to the handling of a racecar, in higher tiers of motorsport with driver adjustments to them, there are drivers that will adjust their brakes almost on a per-corner basis. A greater amount of control over the car directly translates to a greater amount of control over the overall lap times. While brakes will of course always function in the same way unless they have some sort of failure, there is a wide disparity in how they are used.

Yup, my statement only really holds true for decelerating in a straight line, in this instance assuming the brakes have the power to lock the wheels any and all braking systems will be as effective as each other in terms of getting the car stopped from a given speed as a tyre is at its most effective when it is right on the point of locking up but still rotating.

Of course when you are start looking to brake in a corner, in a scenario where heat management or longevity matters or where the car is doing anything that requires some finesse or balance to the inputs then an adjustable reliable braking system becomes important and for all race uses they are obviously very important.

Shinzah
06-01-2016, 14:30
Yup, my statement only really holds true for decelerating in a straight line, in this instance assuming the brakes have the power to lock the wheels any and all braking systems will be as effective as each other in terms of getting the car stopped from a given speed as a tyre is at its most effective when it is right on the point of locking up but still rotating.

Of course when you are start looking to brake in a corner, in a scenario where heat management or longevity matters or where the car is doing anything that requires some finesse or balance to the inputs then an adjustable reliable braking system becomes important and for all race uses they are obviously very important.

Naturally this is true, but there's very few racing situations outside of zero-4 (or the other assorted kinds of straight line racing) that the effective braking in a straight line physics would be applicable ^^;

It would be like boiling down acceleration to "All cars go forward roughly the same when the accelerator is applied" ^^;

deedub777
06-01-2016, 15:06
there's a racing line option? Oh dear...

kevin kirk
06-01-2016, 16:39
It would be ok if the speed sensitivity worked well, to alleviate the issues you have to crank the setting up, which means you can't get enough lock on fast sweeping corners, so if you want to have enough lock in those, you have to turn it down, which means there isn't enough during slow corners.

I find it bizarre that people are insistent on defending the pad implementation in PCars when the developers themselves have said it's poorly implemented and will be improved in PCars 2..........part of my opinion is the surprise that the pad is so much easier than I expected it to be. Maybe its were shift 2 had my chewing on my controller,endlessly testing to find a controller setting that worked like it should. You most certainly wouldn't try a fix turning thur the corner issue with your steering settings because that would just give you another issue somewhere else on the track with the steering. You would fix that with the cars setup. Probally the diff or the brake mapping.

oldmodelt
06-01-2016, 18:39
there's a racing line option? Oh dear...

:D lol

bradleyland
06-01-2016, 19:13
Live for speed for one, and I'll be interested to see how AC tackles it when it comes to console.

Wait, are you saying LFS's gamepad implementation is better? I haven't played LFS since S2, but most people I played with used a mouse. Very few people used a gamepad, because the cars were so difficult to control with the tiny gamepad joysticks.

Mad Al
06-01-2016, 20:08
Wait, are you saying LFS's gamepad implementation is better? I haven't played LFS since S2, but most people I played with used a mouse. Very few people used a gamepad, because the cars were so difficult to control with the tiny gamepad joysticks.

Only if you happen to want something which is basically a very non linear bell curve that has full lock left and right with no speed sensitivity, so you can throw full lock at ANY speed.. which allows you to go full left to right to left lock several times per second... all highly realistic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWrP8Uo42jc

I'm not saying it's a bad driving experience on a pad, but that stupidly fast lock to lock stuff doesn't sit well..

4fast2you
06-01-2016, 22:21
Not many games got pad right. I like Forza and F1 games from Codemasters, itīs not hard to be consistent.

hkraft300
06-01-2016, 23:07
Forza gamepad steering = every car driving like a bloody 12-pallet truck.
Even the Lotus F1 in Forza 5. I'd have to brake super early and apply some steering to make the apex.

Shinzah
06-01-2016, 23:11
Not many games got pad right. I like Forza and F1 games from Codemasters, itīs not hard to be consistent.


Forza gamepad steering = every car driving like a bloody 12-pallet truck.
Even the Lotus F1 in Forza 5. I'd have to brake super early and apply some steering to make the apex.

It's not hard to be consistent driving one of this...

https://media.giphy.com/media/Uj3SeuVfg2oCs/giphy.gif

....Oh wait

https://media.giphy.com/media/OJw4CDbtu0jde/giphy.gif

hkraft300
06-01-2016, 23:22
^ haha pisser
But so true.
Set the controller filtering to 95 and its like driving forza with a pad.
In FM5 the steering sensitivity setting did nothing. I had it cranked up to 100 and I could barely make a chicane.

matt5687
13-01-2016, 14:46
The problem that pad users have in my opinion is related to the "Speed Sensitivity" slider. We know that if you increase the slider then as the car picks up speed the steering becomes less sensitive to help stability at high speed. This works fine and most people seem to be able to find a happy setting for higher speeds so if you knock the stick one way the car isn't going to veer off the track.

The problem starts (for me at least) when the car slows down because as the road speed decreases the steering effectively becomes more sensitive. So for a corner where you enter fast but must slow whilst steering as the corner tightens (turn 3 into 4 at Bathurst) you actually have to take steering lock OFF as the car slows down and this is the opposite of what it should be. I've found this leads to the car being difficult to predict and on any given corner the difference between the correct steering angle and way, way too much can be a knife edge.

It would be helpful if we had a 2 separate sensitivity sliders, one for high Speed and one for low Speed.