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Doge
04-01-2016, 13:30
This is a topic Iīm very interested about, and it seems to trigger a lot of good discussion here. It is often said Project CARS has too much grip, the cars are too fast, etc... but we rarely go into detail.

Comparing leaderboards and pole position times from real racing series doesnīt cut it since we can do a lot of stuff real drivers can not (like closing the cooling, or creating a one-lap setup in series with parc fermé rules).

The idea of this thread is simple: trying to create a set of conditions as close to a real qualifying session as possible, drive in these conditions, and only then draw accurate comparisons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4tjyhdG2xk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoWJjlLyR8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naN9tvNpzhY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0q2_fdmkKA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXttK5XzR4

KasperVJensen
04-01-2016, 16:01
Cool experiment!

Makes me think that there should be an option to implement this into races somehow.

Doge
04-01-2016, 16:06
Cool experiment!

Makes me think that there should be an option to implement this into races somehow.

Or maybe a ghost for time trial mode with the fastest lap ever that car has achieved around that track.

KasperVJensen
04-01-2016, 16:33
I think there already is that?

havocc
04-01-2016, 16:36
I don't want to be repetitive but avoiding wild downshifting to maximize engine braking should be a top priority for Pcars2, in-game record at Spa is 6/7 seconds faster than Vettel's record, fixed 5lt fuel and perfect track/weather conditions aren't worth 6/7 seconds gap

Doge
04-01-2016, 16:42
I think there already is that?

I mean the real car fastest laptime, not the in-game leaderboard lap


I don't want to be repetitive but avoiding wild downshifting to maximize engine braking should be a top priority for Pcars2, in-game record at Spa is 6/7 seconds faster than Vettel's record, fixed 5lt fuel and perfect track/weather conditions aren't worth 6/7 seconds gap

That bullshit also plagued Codemasters games. I donīt do it myself so I donīt know to what extent that exploit is game breaking in this game, but that kind of driving should lock the rear wheels for those doing it. It already happens with other cars if you time a shift wrong.

havocc
04-01-2016, 16:53
Should also blow the engine/gearbox

Sander NL
04-01-2016, 17:58
Very nice work Doge! Thanks for your effort and time. :encouragement:

I also like to compare real world lap times with the lap times possible in project CARS. I've made a thread with historically accurate car – track combinations to be able to compare my own laptimes to the all-time great of motorsport: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42774-Historically-accurate-car-–-track-combinations

A couple of thoughts regarding your experiment:

* You've compared the project CARS Formula A car with Mark Webber's lap in a 2011 Red Bull-Renault (RB7). This was the fastest car at that time. The actual qualification times of 2011 during the German GP ranged from 1:30.079 (Webber; P1) to 1:37.036 (D. Ricciardo in a HRT-Cosworth; P24)*. Hence the project CARS Formula A lap time should be between 1:30 and 1:37. Not faster.
* You've compared your lap time with Mark Webber's qualification lap. Mark's lap should be considered the ultimate lap time. Your lap time should not be faster.

As you've found out: The project CARS Formula A car is (way) too fast. It should, in the hands of a professional driver be able to lap 1:30 - 1:37 (depending on which Formula 1 car is simulated in project CARS). In the hands of a non professional driver it should be (a lot) slower.

Like I've said in the 'Historically accurate car – track combinations'-thread: I'm really impressed how close this game comes to reality! Great job SMS! :applause:
But there is still room for improvement as your experiment shows. :o

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_German_Grand_Prix

Doge
04-01-2016, 18:05
Should also blow the engine/gearbox

Itīs weird because I would have sweared to have read about people complaining they were blowing their engine because the game would downshift them into first gear in one click. So maybe the effect is there but it only punishes the most blatant nonsense.

Itīs curious how looking at leaderboards, in some tracks the in game car totally obliterates pole position (Spa, Monza) while in others (Silverstone, Nurburbring) it can barely go any faster. Maybe thereīs a bit of track abuse involved in some of these times?

Sander NL
04-01-2016, 18:10
I was quite surprised with the result, as I expected the car to destroy by a huge margin the real pole. It wasnīt the case, the margin was sort of reasonable.

That's not what I took from your experiment. :rolleyes:

You did "destroy" the 2011 pole position time "by a huge margin".
0.607 seconds is a "huge margin" in F1 terms. Especially considering you were the driver and not Mark Webber. :o

Doge
04-01-2016, 18:21
That's not what I took from your experiment. :rolleyes:

You did "destroy" the 2011 pole position time "by a huge margin".
0.607 seconds is a "huge margin" in F1 terms. Especially considering you were the driver and not Mark Webber. :o

I know, youīre absolutely right. 0ī6 is a lot.

I just expected it to be a total onslaught (several seconds) after seeing some laptimes for other tracks in the F1 calendar in the leaderboards. With these expectations it was actually a bit of a satisfaction to get a laptime in the same second.

Alexandre Bardet
04-01-2016, 18:29
(...) Who doesnīt know the rules of F1?

I don't. Have no idea actually. I only care about Le Mans, 6h of Spa and 24h Nurburgring. I wouldn't drive a F1 car even if someone would pay me millions XD. LMPs are what I love.

To be on topic, I think the LMPs are not performing like reality in regards to their top speed, this has been said multiple times, last year the Pole Porshe 919 hybrid set a top speed of 340 km/h during race, so yeah, LMP1s are suppose to reach 330/340 km/h without having to close brake ducts or set downforce to 0. Too bad there is still disagreement about this.

Mad Al
04-01-2016, 18:37
That's not what I took from your experiment. :rolleyes:

You did "destroy" the 2011 pole position time "by a huge margin".
0.607 seconds is a "huge margin" in F1 terms. Especially considering you were the driver and not Mark Webber. :o

Whilst it could be considered a huge margin in F1 terms, in terms of getting accurate representation in a game, it's pretty good... as 1% should be considered pretty damn close for a Ģ60 game.

gp20
04-01-2016, 18:49
You can check the brake distance or acceleration time.
0-100 km/h or 100 km/h to zéro.

Charger
04-01-2016, 19:04
You really need to sort out your steering ratio, you are turning that wheel twice as much as Webber, he hardly ever goes past 90 degrees!

Mad Al
04-01-2016, 19:07
As a matter of interest, has someone got the top TT times from the PS4 and Xbox One for the FA for the available tracks from the F1 2011 season


PC times F1 2011 (Qualifying) Vs FA top TT times (excluding the obvious wrong ones)

F1 2011 FA
Catalunya 1:20.981 1:17.664
Monaco 1:13.556 1:12.612
Silverstone 1:30.399 1:30.134
Nurburgring 1:30.079 1:28.956
Spa 1:48.298 1:40.824
Monza 1:22.275 1:17.889
Those range from about 0.3 to 6.9% out from "real" (and we all know about the possible OC issues on PC)

havocc
04-01-2016, 19:10
Itīs curious how looking at leaderboards, in some tracks the in game car totally obliterates pole position (Spa, Monza) while in others (Silverstone, Nurburbring) it can barely go any faster. Maybe thereīs a bit of track abuse involved in some of these times?

When there are community events or esports events (Spa, Monza etc) the aliens come to play and you will see totally surreal lap times, monza record at Pcars is 1.17.889, Vettel's 2011 pole is 1.22.275 :D

Sander NL
04-01-2016, 19:15
Whilst it could be considered a huge margin in F1 terms, in terms of getting accurate representation in a game, it's pretty good... as 1% should be considered pretty damn close ....

I would agree if Mark Webber (or another professional race driver) driving a RB7 in project CARS would come within 0.600 of a second.
But since a non professional did driving a Forumla A: I disagree. :o



...for a Ģ60 game.

Project CARS is a Ģ60 game? The fact that you've paid Ģ60 (did you really pay that much? ;)) has little to do with the development cost of the game. It may be a Ģ6.000.000 game.

The simulator software used by professional F1-teams (rFactor Pro*) might be just as costly as project CARS. Difference is it's paid for by a few professional customers, so per 'license' it's hugely expensive.

Development cost X divided by 10 pro users = a lot of €/$/Ģ
Development cost X divided by 100.000 home users = ten thousand times less €/$/Ģ

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5heqjNMFJpw

Mad Al
04-01-2016, 19:20
I would agree if Mark Webber (or another professional race driver) 'playing' project CARS would come within 0.600 of a second.
But since a non professional did: I disagree. :o




Project CARS is a Ģ60 game? The fact that we pay Ģ60 (did you really pay that much? :p) has little to do with the development cost of the game. It may be a Ģ6.000.000 game.

The simulator software used by professional F1-teams (rFactor Pro*) might be just as costly as project CARS. Difference is it's paid for by a few professional customers, so per 'license' it's hugely expensive.

Development cost divided by 10 pro users = a lot of €/$/Ģ
Development cost divided by 100.000 home users = a thousand times less €/$/Ģ

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5heqjNMFJpw

So When a professional driver got within hundredths of his real life lap times in the same car/circuit combination, when testing Project CARS, you would accept that then...

Doge
04-01-2016, 19:24
You really need to sort out your steering ratio, you are turning that wheel twice as much as Webber, he hardly ever goes past 90 degrees!

Thatīs a replay bug (when the hell will you fix it guys...). You can check right before as I drive, itīs OK.


So When a professional driver got within hundredths of his real life lap times in the same car/circuit combination, when testing Project CARS, you would accept that then...

That should be your goal. Weīre not there now.


When there are community events or esports events (Spa, Monza etc) the aliens come to play and you will see totally surreal lap times, monza record at Pcars is 1.17.889, Vettel's 2011 pole is 1.22.275 :D

Meh, these times are rubbish very often. They contain wall banging, track extension, setup exploits, driving exploits, assists, external cameras, ad infinitum attempts... any BS the game will allow. I donīt expect the game to resist players trying to bend it, leaderboards will always be a bit silly.

Sander NL
04-01-2016, 19:24
So When a professional driver got within hundredths of his real life lap times in the same car/circuit combination, when testing Project CARS, you would accept that then...

Yes! That would mean that project CARS is within 1% of reality :D

More in depth: I think the variables of Doge's test could be limited even more by choosing a real world car and its project CARS 'twin'.
That's why I've made the thread: historically accurate car – track combinations: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42774-Historically-accurate-car-–-track-combinations

These combinations are real cars driven on real tracks by professional drivers vs simulated cars, simulated tracks driven by us. (Us being the unreliable factor, but with the sheer number of players a reasonably reliable one).

The Formula A car isn't a perfect match with a Formula 1 car*, so testing that scenario adds a variable making the results more unreliable.

* Or a least: Which 2011 F1 car? A Red Bull, Ferrari or a Force India perhaps?

Doge
04-01-2016, 19:36
More in depth: I think the variables of Doge's could be limited even more by choosing a real world car and it's project CARS 'twin'.
...
The Formula A car isn't a perfect match with a Formula 1 car*, so testing that scenario adds a variable making the results more unreliable.


I think we all know what the Formula A is meant to be... I honestly donīt expect any more accuracy for official cars. Iīve already blown FR 3.5 pole position in the same track... while driving a race fuel load!

Sander NL
04-01-2016, 19:39
I think we all know what the Formula A is meant to be... I honestly donīt expect any more accuracy for official cars. Iīve already blown FR 3.5 pole position in the same track... while driving a race fuel load!

I wonder if the 'new' tyre model (next patch?) brings project CARS closer to reality.

Sander NL
04-01-2016, 20:00
So When a professional driver got within hundredths of his real life lap times in the same car/circuit combination, when testing Project CARS, you would accept that then...

Regarding professional drivers: I'd like to share a story from Formula 1 history:

When Gerhard Berger drove for Ferrari at the German Grand Prix on the Hockenheimring (somewhere around 1988) the telemetry data showed that his braking points before the chicane were only 30 cm apart (!!). At a speed of 328 km/h* (= 91 m/s) this means he braked only 3 thousands of a second (!!!) apart. Lap after lap after lap...

* When the track was dry, the Ferraris went through the speed trap at 328 km/h (204 mph) on Hockenheim's long straights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_German_Grand_Prix

davekojo
04-01-2016, 20:50
If you are doing lap time comparisons you should do a GT3 or LMP car. No matter what people say the FA is not a real car even it was intended to imitate a car that existed.

But to all these people that seem obsessed with realism the aim of a "sim" whether it is iracing, Pcars, rFactor, AC, Microsoft Flight Simulator is to to provide a realistic imitation of the controls and operation of a vehicle, aircraft, or other complex system, for training purposes. Just as you can learn to fly using MS Flight Simulator, you can learn to drive fast in Pcars. You can also fly a plane from Sydney to LA faster than professional Pilots do in MS Flight Simulator, so by the standards of a large number of people on this forum the flight simulator used to train commercial pilots is unrealistic.

Most of the posts about realism seem to come from armchair racers who have never driven on a track. The idea that just because you can produce a faster lap time on a PC than a driver on track make a computer program unrealistic in my mind is crazy. Yes people can argue there are levels of realism but I've never judged a game (no offence but from MS Flight Simulator and iracing all they way to burnout you are just playing games) by what is essentially an arbitrary reference point.

I understand that many people expect a simulator to match real life, but just like a 3D model of Taylor Swift in your bedroom will never be Taylor Swift in your bedroom. A sim will never produce the same results as the real thing. The pimples will be different, the skin a slightly different pigment. The important thing is whether or not for a brief moment your 3D model make you feel as if you had Taylor Swift in your bedroom.

Doge
04-01-2016, 21:20
If you are doing lap time comparisons you should do a GT3 or LMP car. No matter what people say the FA is not a real car even it was intended to imitate a car that existed.

A vehicle being licensed wonīt automatically improve the accuracy, if thatīs what you think. In the same track, I already know the FR 3.5 is further off its counterpart performance than the unlicensed 2011 Formula 1 car. ;)


Yes people can argue there are levels of realism but I've never judged a game (no offence but from MS Flight Simulator and iracing all they way to burnout you are just playing games) by what is essentially an arbitrary reference point.

When someone says "the car drives good", thatīs arbitrary. Laptimes in similar conditions are not.


A sim will never produce the same results as the real thing.

Weīve got to the point where motorsport teams use sims to do setup work. Weīve got to the point where they test experimental designs for car parts to evaluate the performance gains.

If a car is big time off the mark in your sim without the driver doing any silly exploit, you should improve it, no excuses.

davekojo
04-01-2016, 21:42
A vehicle being licensed wonīt automatically improve the accuracy, if thatīs what you think. In the same track, I already know the FR 3.5 is further off its counterpart performance than the unlicensed 2011 Formula 1 car. ;)


I'll give you that



Weīve got to the point where motorsport teams use sims to do setup work. Weīve got to the point where they test experimental designs for car parts to evaluate the performance gains.


I've never heard of a Motorsport team tuning up to a track and using the same setup that they used on a computer. They always change it. They can establish a baseline (even with Pcars) but it will need adjustment. The compute power of systems used to test parts is also far more than the compute power of any desktop PC you can build. Forget about console



If a car is big time off the mark in your sim without the driver doing any silly exploit, you should improve it, no excuses.


I'm sure SMS can change the code to reduce lap times if they wanted. But a lap time in an application whether you call it a game, sim is not a very good indication of realism. There is no wind speed, change in ambient temperatures, affects of elevation change. You as a driver don't have G-force, fear of death, visibility issues from track glare etc.

By the way I actually like your idea of comparing cars to their real life counterparts. I just like to play devils advocate. I work in application development and most people don't actually understand what it takes to make an application that does anything more than says Hello world

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 06:02
Licensed cars may not be as accurate to RL as we'd like. Eg Toyota refused performance data to SMS to build the TS040 but gave CAD info on the chassis. I'd say they refused aero data too. SMS have had to do their own digging and put the pieces together.
Certain cars i imagine have had far more build data revealed. Some cars laser scanned. Some provided schematics.
With the level of detail I can presume SMS puts in to building the vehicle in the game, I'd say the significant part of lap time difference would attributed to the tyres and some to track model.
But I'm no expert.
Weather effects, fear factor etc may also play a small role in speeding up lap times.
We may be able to blast around in an LMP or Formula car in this game to match RL times. Throw us in the real car and our senses would be overwhelmed from NVH, g-forces, adrenaline and the fear of busting up a million dollar machine.

Invincible
05-01-2016, 06:36
I think one of the most accurate comparisons would be the BAC Mono. Afaik, BAC gave pretty good feedback about their ingame counterpart. The Ginetta guys did some good testing with their virtual cars too.

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 07:04
There's a BAC Mono @ Oulton Park thread already.
I like where Doge is going with this too.
Lotus 98T @ Hockenheimring, maybe LMP900+ GT1 too if sources exist?

justonce68
05-01-2016, 07:42
You have to take into account, you are not risking your life every time, you try to post a quick lap, there is no risk involved in PCARS.

MaximusN
05-01-2016, 09:21
You have to take into account, you are not risking your life every time, you try to post a quick lap, there is no risk involved in PCARS.
There are more things to take into account:

-The grip level of the track is pretty much consistent. It can vary with temperature, but the differences in grip throughout a lap are always the same. So if you take notice of the grip level in one corner, the next one won't surprise you(no patch of blown-in sand to take you by surprise).

-You know the track by heart and you can easily get 50 hours of training(racing, hotlapping) of the exact version of that track(without any fear of killing yourself), racing drivers can only get that time in a simulator which just isn't the same as that track in reality and even then I'd hazard a guess simracers overtrain(which I hate and find unrealistic) compared to real drivers. And even then setups are being perfected by whole communities(which are all drivers) rather than a handful of people with input from 2 drivers at most(other teams don't share their data which is less useful anyway because their car is different).

-The car is always in the same top condition. There's no faulty fuel pressure regulator that costs a bit of performance or a suspension part that's a bit off or an engineer that got a setting wrong. No wondering if the performance deficit to your teammate is caused by a crack in the chassis or it's just you that's off.

-The is no pressure to perform when it's needed, no harassing media, no needy team boss, no obnoxious teammate, no wondering if you got the good development parts. You drive and train where you want and when you want.. or not, it's all up to you.

-There's no g-forces, excessive cockpit heat, vibrations blurring your vision, even the strength needed to turn the steering wheel is less. The way the control your car is about the same, but you're environment is surely not!

- You adjust your FFB with enormous attention to feel the car better, a driver adjusts the car to drive better and lives with the feedback the car gives.

I'd say about the only thing that gives a racing driver an advantage is the seat of pants feeling, all other aspects are far more repeatable and consistent in a sim. We can do the same trick lap after lap after lap(not taking into account variances in grip because of tires and track). You don't have to feel the car. If you're consistent in your control the reaction of the car will be pretty consistent too. We're a bit like one trick ponies, it only takes a set of laps to learn the trick.

Doge
05-01-2016, 11:14
I found good footage of a well known skilled driver lapping to the 0ī01 a McLaren P1, with Mclaren sent crew, around an in-game track, with a Pirelli Trofeo. The video also hints a lot about how much car time he had so I can replicate that too. Thatīs the next test. Canīt wait to see the results!

@ Justonce: This ainīt cycling, and weīre not descending an Hors categorie at 90 km/h in spandex with bottomless pits and trees everywhere. Modern circuit racing is pretty safe, at least if you vehicle has 4 wheels. If youīre a pro driver in a motorsport team and youīre thinking of safety as you drive, youīre doing it wrong. I am "scared" on track days because I need my car next day, but thatīs it. If the MotoGP guys can throw caution to the wind everytime they go out, any car circuit car driver should, and can. Ask any pro if fear is anywhere in their minds once theyīre at it.

@ Maximus
- Consistent grip level: Sure. But more often than not, itīs the same for them. Sure there are sessions where something is different for the entire time... but itīs not hard to go around that and find representative samples.
- Any pro knows the track by heart, and I limited my practice and my attempts. Already thought of that. Itīs not a factor.
- True for road cars with no team support, not relevant in any other scenario.
- Correct for "no pressure on me".
- Being physically in the car is actually benefitial despite the obvious comfort problems: it helps getting far superior feedback. G-forces are feedback. Vibrations are feedback. A heavy steering is good feedback. Train to be in reasonable shape, and all of that plays into your hands.
- Same as before: no amount of FFB tweaking in your toy wheel will ever get you the feedback you get actually sitting in the real car.

Now I present a counter argument that has far more weight than any of these points you mentioned: Iīm Mr.Nobody, the people on the actual cars are World class drivers. The skill gap between me and any of these guys is worth far more laptime than anything you pointed out can ever account for. If I can go faster, something needs being improved.

For the final note, I want to repeat the repetition element is cut down in these tests, and I try to get similar practice time and qualifying attempts to the real driver posting the time, because indeed, unlimited practice would play into the sim racer hands.

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 12:18
In terms of Pro's vs average Joe sim racer, you'd be surprised how close you can get within their lap times with a little practice. In a sim. I mean have a pro do 20 laps then you do 20 laps with everything the same.
The major difference will be that he will lap within tenths every lap, and you may get a best lap or 2 within a second of his time.
Anyway Doge, I'd highly recommend Sander's format of only his thread focuses on historic vehicles pre-2000. This can be a modern(ish) try :)

cluck
05-01-2016, 12:30
In terms of Pro's vs average Joe sim racer, you'd be surprised how close you can get within their lap times with a little practice. In a sim. I mean have a pro do 20 laps then you do 20 laps with everything the same.
The major difference will be that he will lap within tenths every lap, and you may get a best lap or 2 within a second of his time.
Anyway Doge, I'd highly recommend Sander's format of only his thread focuses on historic vehicles pre-2000. This can be a modern(ish) try :)Indeed. Rene Rast put up a time on Silverstone in a car and, of course, the WMD folk went after it very quickly. It didn't take me long to beat his time (albeit not by much). The thing is, Rene then also posted his car setup and I couldn't drive the car for toffee - it felt like constantly dancingon a knife-edge, precariously balanced over a pit of iron spikes :o. His technique was also far more what you see in real racing drivers - smooth, measured, controlled, fast. Mine was almost the complete opposite. But I was faster than him (just!) and it took me just a few laps in a car I was not that familiar with on a track that I rarely drove (I still get lost at the 'new' Silverstone layout).

Could I repeat that lap, time after time after time? No, I'd bin it or run wide probably 95% of the time. I have no doubt that Rene put in lap after lap after lap, all within tenths (or hundredths) of a second of each other.

To me, that last part is what separates the real drivers (even good sim drivers) from people like me. When I get it right, I can put in a ferociously fast lap. But to do so in real life would require about 300 doner cars and an absolute reckless abandonment of my own safety :D.

Invincible
05-01-2016, 12:39
Could I repeat that lap, time after time after time? No, I'd bin it or run wide probably 95% of the time. I have no doubt that Rene put in lap after lap after lap, all within tenths (or hundredths) of a second of each other.

To me, that last part is what separates the real drivers (even good sim drivers) from people like me. When I get it right, I can put in a ferociously fast lap. But to do so in real life would require about 300 doner cars and an absolute reckless abandonment of my own safety :D.

Same here. One really fast lap out of 50 isn't the problem for me. Being consistent is my greatest struggle. I may pinpoint one single lap, but utterly fail at the other 49.
I see that every time I practice hotlapping. It always end the same... I end with a time that is my overall fastest, but in the aftermath I see that I can do much better in two of three sectors. But I am unable to replicate those times.

Yorkie065
05-01-2016, 12:56
Indeed. Rene Rast put up a time on Silverstone in a car and, of course, the WMD folk went after it very quickly. It didn't take me long to beat his time (albeit not by much). The thing is, Rene then also posted his car setup and I couldn't drive the car for toffee - it felt like constantly dancingon a knife-edge, precariously balanced over a pit of iron spikes :o. His technique was also far more what you see in real racing drivers - smooth, measured, controlled, fast. Mine was almost the complete opposite. But I was faster than him (just!) and it took me just a few laps in a car I was not that familiar with on a track that I rarely drove (I still get lost at the 'new' Silverstone layout).

Could I repeat that lap, time after time after time? No, I'd bin it or run wide probably 95% of the time. I have no doubt that Rene put in lap after lap after lap, all within tenths (or hundredths) of a second of each other.

To me, that last part is what separates the real drivers (even good sim drivers) from people like me. When I get it right, I can put in a ferociously fast lap. But to do so in real life would require about 300 doner cars and an absolute reckless abandonment of my own safety :D.

It's also that technique that he has that a lot of people who play sims actually lack, and there's an advantage in that for those who haven't raced a real car. What I mean is Rene probably applies a lot of his racing technique, stuff that he was taught from the start of racing and has learnt throughout his career in terms of driving the car and tyres, to the game. Like you said, he's smooth, he's consistent and when he brakes traction, he does everything he can as quickly as possible to fix that to keep the car balanced and fully in control. For someone who doesn't have that experience but does a lot of sim racing, is much happier to go all out balls out without a care in the world how he gets around the track as long as it's quick and the fastest way possible. They could be breaking traction and sliding in a lot of places, but as long as it gets him the fastest times possible they'll do it over and over because there's no real punishment for it. IRL you'll destroy tyres and you run a high risk of breaking something on the car, the car itself or even you, but in a sim you can just hit reset if anything goes wrong and attempt again. Racing drivers start from the bottom of their pace and work up, we as sim racers can start from the top and work down.

havocc
05-01-2016, 13:46
Same here. One really fast lap out of 50 isn't the problem for me. Being consistent is my greatest struggle. I may pinpoint one single lap, but utterly fail at the other 49.
I see that every time I practice hotlapping. It always end the same... I end with a time that is my overall fastest, but in the aftermath I see that I can do much better in two of three sectors. But I am unable to replicate those times.

And when you're doing the monster time with super T1 and T2 you f**k up at the last 2nd gear corner 100m before the finish line :D

hkraft300
05-01-2016, 15:21
And when you're doing the monster time with super T1 and T2 you f**k up at the last 2nd gear corner 100m before the finish line :D

The struggle is real, my friend.
You know what's worse? When you're -.5 on a sector and you have no idea why/how. Spa sector 2 does it to me sometimes. I can never replicate it. I don't know what I'm doing different...

cluck
05-01-2016, 15:27
And when you're doing the monster time with super T1 and T2 you f**k up at the last 2nd gear corner 100m before the finish line :DOr you set a blistering S1 time, only to bin it the very next corner (yes, that was me last night, time after time after time in the Renault RS01 at Nords - I was over 1s up on my current best time 3 attempts in a row. 3 attempts in a row I binned it within 3 corners after the S1 timer check.


For someone who doesn't have that experience but does a lot of sim racing, is much happier to go all out balls out without a care in the world how he gets around the track as long as it's quick and the fastest way possible. They could be breaking traction and sliding in a lot of places, but as long as it gets him the fastest times possible they'll do it over and over because there's no real punishment for it

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you, exhibit A, a slightly deranged individual* attempting to tackle the Nordschliefe in the Radical RXC Turbo.


http://youtu.be/SHLZaCdQp2s

* me!


If I ever get a decent internet connection I'm going to take a random car, one I'm not familiar with, take it to Nords and record the entire session, warts and all. I suspect it will be an illuminating experience for some :).

havocc
05-01-2016, 15:30
The struggle is real, my friend.
You know what's worse? When you're -.5 on a sector and you have no idea why/how. Spa sector 2 does it to me sometimes. I can never replicate it. I don't know what I'm doing different...

I always fu*k up at Bus Stop and when i manage to do it right i regularly spin at La Source, NGK chicane at nurb is also very nice...

RomKnight
05-01-2016, 18:29
Or you set a blistering S1 time, only to bin it the very next corner (yes, that was me last night, time after time after time in the Renault RS01 at Nords - I was over 1s up on my current best time 3 attempts in a row. 3 attempts in a row I binned it within 3 corners after the S1 timer check.



Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you, exhibit A, a slightly deranged individual* attempting to tackle the Nordschliefe in the Radical RXC Turbo.

<...>

* me!


If I ever get a decent internet connection I'm going to take a random car, one I'm not familiar with, take it to Nords and record the entire session, warts and all. I suspect it will be an illuminating experience for some :).


You're clipping the FFB way too much. You might want to look into that.

Mad Al
06-01-2016, 00:51
Indeed. Rene Rast put up a time on Silverstone in a car and, of course, the WMD folk went after it very quickly. It didn't take me long to beat his time (albeit not by much). The thing is, Rene then also posted his car setup and I couldn't drive the car for toffee - it felt like constantly dancingon a knife-edge, precariously balanced over a pit of iron spikes :o. His technique was also far more what you see in real racing drivers - smooth, measured, controlled, fast. Mine was almost the complete opposite. But I was faster than him (just!) and it took me just a few laps in a car I was not that familiar with on a track that I rarely drove (I still get lost at the 'new' Silverstone layout).

Could I repeat that lap, time after time after time? No, I'd bin it or run wide probably 95% of the time. I have no doubt that Rene put in lap after lap after lap, all within tenths (or hundredths) of a second of each other.

To me, that last part is what separates the real drivers (even good sim drivers) from people like me. When I get it right, I can put in a ferociously fast lap. But to do so in real life would require about 300 doner cars and an absolute reckless abandonment of my own safety :D.

So the question is, how much do you have to knock it off to be consistent.. your listed fastest lap at Nords in the BAC Mono is 7:22.786

Did a test at Nords in the BAC Mono... 8 laps in TT, default setup, first 4 was working up to the limit, last 4 was trying to stay at the limit (and still trying not to kill the car).. 1st lap was 7:39.. working down to 7:30 ish as a consistent fast pace.. last 4 laps were 7:29.577,7:30.268, 7:29.677 and 7:30.199 which is less than 0.7 seconds variance (or 0.15%) ... and approx. 1.5% slower than your fastest lap..

hkraft300
06-01-2016, 02:08
Over such a big track All that's incredible consistency well done!

Invincible
06-01-2016, 04:15
0.15 % difference really isn't much... On the Nordschleife, I usually jump around five seconds from one lap to another... :(

Yorkie065
06-01-2016, 07:34
So the question is, how much do you have to knock it off to be consistent.. your listed fastest lap at Nords in the BAC Mono is 7:22.786

Did a test at Nords in the BAC Mono... 8 laps in TT, default setup, first 4 was working up to the limit, last 4 was trying to stay at the limit (and still trying not to kill the car).. 1st lap was 7:39.. working down to 7:30 ish as a consistent fast pace.. last 4 laps were 7:29.577,7:30.268, 7:29.677 and 7:30.199 which is less than 0.7 seconds variance (or 0.15%) ... and approx. 1.5% slower than your fastest lap..

For me the consistency comes around the 85-90% mark of outright pace. The focus is nailing braking point, nailing apex, good smooth exit, and if you do that for enough laps it gets embedded into you, you get into a rhythm and rather than you trying to pull the time out the car, the time just kind of comes to you. You start driving the corners the same lap after lap and the times just roll off within 10th's of each other and you'll find that you may be a tad slower than someone else pushing constantly, but with a lot of focus on making sure the car doesn't lock wheels, doesn't break traction and isn't sliding through the corners you'll be keeping up with them as they make numerous small mistakes eventually leading to a big one.

Those last 4 laps though, being with 0.7 seconds of each other on Nords is very impressive. Especially in a car that is very easy to get carried away with and just have some fun throwing it around sideways through some corners! :D

cluck
06-01-2016, 08:06
So the question is, how much do you have to knock it off to be consistent.. your listed fastest lap at Nords in the BAC Mono is 7:22.786

Did a test at Nords in the BAC Mono... 8 laps in TT, default setup, first 4 was working up to the limit, last 4 was trying to stay at the limit (and still trying not to kill the car).. 1st lap was 7:39.. working down to 7:30 ish as a consistent fast pace.. last 4 laps were 7:29.577,7:30.268, 7:29.677 and 7:30.199 which is less than 0.7 seconds variance (or 0.15%) ... and approx. 1.5% slower than your fastest lap..Impressive consistency there Al :).

I don't have the patience to do that. I do two kinds of things in Project CARS mostly.

1. Time Trial hotlapping. Consistency goes out the window, I don't care what it takes to get to the end point as quickly as possible, all that matters is that I cross the line faster than I have done so before. If it's faster than anybody else, it's a bonus, but my only goal is to (ahem) beat myself. I will bin a non-completed lap if I feel there is no chance of beating my previous time.

2. League racing in multiplayer. Here, I am more interested in doing the best I can and staying on track to the end of the race. The 'all out, balls out' approach I employ in time trial is set aside. My lap times are usually a lot slower as a result but I will generally be a lot more consistent. My only goal is to finish the race and finish it in as high a position as it is possible for me to achieve (even if that's last place, 2 or 3 laps down from the leaders).

I use Project CARS to escape from the world but I don't take it that seriously. If I spend 20 minutes binning lap after lap of Nords, I put it down and do something else for a few minutes.

As a casual aside, during that video capture my mind was wandering all over the place, which can be seen a short way into S2 when I suddenly slam the brakes on for no reason - I was literally day-dreaming at that point and forgot which part of the track I was on :o. I only did that run to show NoTG that my time on the leaderboard was indeed valid.

All that said and done, if I do a clean lap with the Radical now, it is within a second of my fastest time, each and every time. I can still go faster but it's a question of maintaining concentration, nerve and discipline, none of which I'm good at when hotlapping ;).

Doge
06-01-2016, 13:32
New experiment out. As I expected, the car having license or not has no influence on accuracy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoWJjlLyR8

Details of the test (all I considered to make it as fair as possible) are in the video description.

cluck
06-01-2016, 21:34
So the question is, how much do you have to knock it off to be consistent.. your listed fastest lap at Nords in the BAC Mono is 7:22.786

Did a test at Nords in the BAC Mono... 8 laps in TT, default setup, first 4 was working up to the limit, last 4 was trying to stay at the limit (and still trying not to kill the car).. 1st lap was 7:39.. working down to 7:30 ish as a consistent fast pace.. last 4 laps were 7:29.577,7:30.268, 7:29.677 and 7:30.199 which is less than 0.7 seconds variance (or 0.15%) ... and approx. 1.5% slower than your fastest lap..For a giggle I took the car out on the supersofts. I set my fastest lap and then went straight on for a second lap. This screenshot was taken - as you can see - about half way down the long back straight.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/609476200902694264/AB91B4F00DB762594A40B87F9894E798FCC54BA4/


(apols for the huge image, it's straight from Steam)

Yes, that's just 3 hundredths of a second difference :D

4fast2you
06-01-2016, 22:28
New experiment out. As I expected, the car having license or not has no influence on accuracy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoWJjlLyR8

Details of the test (all I considered to make it as fair as possible) are in the video description.

4 seconds? Thatīs what you expect in Gran Turismo. When I got this game I did it because I was told it was a simulator! :mad:

Mad Al
06-01-2016, 23:24
For a giggle I took the car out on the supersofts. I set my fastest lap and then went straight on for a second lap. This screenshot was taken - as you can see - about half way down the long back straight.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/609476200902694264/AB91B4F00DB762594A40B87F9894E798FCC54BA4/


(apols for the huge image, it's straight from Steam)

Yes, that's just 3 hundredths of a second difference :D

Nice one... those front tyres are looking good after a couple of laps.. I think the defaults would probably do 100 laps before being knackered..

spot the wear after 8 laps.. :)

225034

Mad Al
06-01-2016, 23:29
4 seconds? Thatīs what you expect in Gran Turismo. When I got this game I did it because I was told it was a simulator! :mad:

It's easier to get an accurate lap in an arcade game, for the simple reason it has less variables..... the tyres here are extremely complex so the margin for error is a lot larger

Doge
07-01-2016, 12:21
It's easier to get an accurate lap in an arcade game, for the simple reason it has less variables..... the tyres here are extremely complex so the margin for error is a lot larger

I disagree, arcade games donīt even try to be accurate. If you think of GT or Forza example, they have an upgrade system that is meant to take the car way off the real specs. Laptimes will never be accurate like that, theyīre not trying to achieve that. I remember driving a 1000hp Mithsubishi GTO Twinturbo :D

One of the main selling points of this game was "simulators finally arrive to consoles". If the product isnīt convincing as a sim, you risk people staying with the old games as they are superior in any other aspect.

Mad Al
07-01-2016, 18:14
I disagree, arcade games donīt even try to be accurate. If you think of GT or Forza example, they have an upgrade system that is meant to take the car way off the real specs. Laptimes will never be accurate like that, theyīre not trying to achieve that. I remember driving a 1000hp Mithsubishi GTO Twinturbo :D

One of the main selling points of this game was "simulators finally arrive to consoles". If the product isnīt convincing as a sim, you risk people staying with the old games as they are superior in any other aspect.

You missed the point.. it's not about if an arcade game happens to have an accurate lap time or not, it's about the simple fact that a simulation with highly complex tyre physics will be more difficult to get accurate.. if there was a single number for grip, that would make it a relative doodle... SETA has a complex mix of different types of grip (just like the real thing)

hkraft300
07-01-2016, 22:19
In that case how accurate are lap time comparisons, really?
You can have a 100% accurate physics track and tyre model, but you have aliens, unlimited practice time, lack of fear factor, beginner's luck etc all come in to play, and post a time 5 seconds under the RL lap record.
OR you can have a sim that nerfs the performance or the tyres to match RL lap records despite the advantages.
Which do you think "the people" will choose?

Its not the best time to open this thread, because tyres are a bit wonky. But what the hell: its a game and this is a fun exercise :)
We're only men after all: never to shy from a pissing contest of any sort ;)

Doge
08-01-2016, 10:28
You missed the point.. it's not about if an arcade game happens to have an accurate lap time or not, it's about the simple fact that a simulation with highly complex tyre physics will be more difficult to get accurate.. if there was a single number for grip, that would make it a relative doodle... SETA has a complex mix of different types of grip (just like the real thing)

Fair enough, I see what you meant. People wonīt be happy with this just because "itīs hard" though. I bet everybody already knew it would be when this game started being built, as you say itīs something youīll have to face building a sim.



You can have a 100% accurate physics track and tyre model, but you have aliens

Aliens < World class drivers


unlimited practice time

Factored out in each and every of the comparisons I made.


lack of fear factor

Irrelevant in all the tested conditions. It would sure come into play driving into a huge cloud of spray or something like that.


beginner's luck etc all come in to play

What?


and post a time 5 seconds under the RL lap record.

Then trust me, you donīt have a 100% accurate physics and track. Actually if that happens it means youīre way off and need to work heavily.


OR you can have a sim that nerfs the performance or the tyres to match RL lap records despite the advantages.

What is needed is accuracy, not nerfs. If a really skilled guy can beat a real pole time by 2 tenths grinding all afternoon no one will care... I wouldnīt. Thatīs what might happen when you really are 100% accurate.


Its not the best time to open this thread, because tyres are a bit wonky. But what the hell: its a game and this is a fun exercise :)
We're only men after all: never to shy from a pissing contest of any sort ;)

If you want the game to look good, I would say right now is actually the best moment. I say it because most of these tests would have been faster with previous heating models. Example: I needed the first 3 hotlaps to get temperature for the Trofeo to start working in the P1 test. In previous heating models, I would have been able to have tyres in their sweetspot all through the timed stint. Same for the GT4 soft compound, its current state forced me to cut down the number of attempts I got with a given fuel load.

BTW, now I mentioned, hereīs a new one!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naN9tvNpzhY

PS: Iīll move them all to the OP so people can find them easily.

hkraft300
08-01-2016, 11:26
The points I raise are what happens generally. The "5 seconds" is an arbitrary number. A 5 second difference in a sim at a 1:30 track in an LMP is a big gap. A 5 second difference at Nordschleife in a Ginetta Jr is an entirely different matter.
You can mitigate the advantages you may have as a sim racer vs RL for your videos and it'll bring your lap times closer to RL. Which is great to see.
World class drivers are better than alien sim racers on a real track. On a sim, where these aliens roam, again is different. Home ground advantage (actually a RL driver lacks feedback he's used to eg G-Forces that a sim driver does without and that's just 1 factor), per se.
So anyway my point is lap times can't be the definitive judgement on sim accuracy. You could match lap times with NFS if the their devs made it so: wouldn't make it much of a sim still.
Accuracy of a sim lies in the code and behaviour. Unless you're well versed in Newtonian physics and had access to the code, well you couldn't really tell.
But its a fun and revealing exercise nonetheless.

4fast2you
09-01-2016, 13:18
I think if we use hard compound in a lot of cars the game will get much better. It is not ideal but is a good workaround.

hkraft300
09-01-2016, 13:57
I think if we use hard compound in a lot of cars the game will get much better. It is not ideal but is a good workaround.

+1
Grip levels may be more in line with RL on hard/medium compounds than indestructible sorts/wets currently.
Lack of peak grip from hards may mimic the need to maintain the softs (from blistering/overheating etc associated with softs).

Doge
09-01-2016, 18:19
Hey, thatīs a good idea. It might not be enough to get accurate grip levels for all combos (the Ginetta on hards would still destroy the real time), but 4 seconds is roughly what I guess you would lose going from the Trofeo to the Pzero, so road cars can be made much more realistic avoiding the gameīs Trofeo.

But it would only work in your solo driving. Good luck finding a room where anyone drives on hard tyres... :rolleyes:

Chiraq
09-01-2016, 19:03
Really interesting comparisons.
You showed that Project Cars has a lot of work to do, you really tried to mimic the conditions real drivers have. If it's only the grips fault I'm not sure, maybe there are some other things involved, too. Maybe in real life they have to save the parts of the car a bit more so they don't have to change them so often. I am not sure but thanks for the videos

Doge
09-01-2016, 20:09
Really interesting comparisons.
You showed that Project Cars has a lot of work to do, you really tried to mimic the conditions real drivers have. If it's only the grips fault I'm not sure, maybe there are some other things involved, too. Maybe in real life they have to save the parts of the car a bit more so they don't have to change them so often. I am not sure but thanks for the videos

Glad you enjoy them mate, I have some more coming up soon with other cars and other tracks, the hard part is finding good reference footage.

Iīm sure there are things scaping my control but Iīll try my best to keep them to a minimum.

Doge
11-01-2016, 17:05
I tried to beat Bathurst lap record, set in an Audi R8 LMS driven by Laurens Vanthoor, hereīs the result. The outcome was quite surprising...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0q2_fdmkKA

Pyromaniak666
11-01-2016, 17:34
I tried to beat Bathurst lap record, set in an Audi R8 LMS driven by Laurens Vanthoor, hereīs the result. The outcome was quite surprising...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0q2_fdmkKA

Wicked video, from around 4:20 it looks he picks up more speed than you and thus the defeat, awesome work

Doge
11-01-2016, 18:12
When I first saw the onboard lap I knew that unless I had a lot of extra grip available I wouldnīt be able to touch him. It is absolutely flawless driving!

Thereīs a link to his lap in the video description, and I recommend everybody watching it so you can get rid of the in-game sound and pay attention to Vanthoorīs lap alone. It is just brilliant. Just make sure your volume is low before hitting play :D

Doge
13-01-2016, 17:07
Does anyone know where on Earth can I find good footage of pole position laps from LMP1 cars? The WEC is very popular yet I canīt find anything for my life. Iīm very curious about how accurate these are in terms of performance.

maxpainpayne
14-01-2016, 09:07
here ya go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwppmmJcSvI

Doge
14-01-2016, 17:16
here ya go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwppmmJcSvI

So, where did you say you have to send the CV to get that job? :o

DjBarney
15-01-2016, 11:14
Does anyone know where on Earth can I find good footage of pole position laps from LMP1 cars? The WEC is very popular yet I canīt find anything for my life. Iīm very curious about how accurate these are in terms of performance.

Not quite a pole position lap, but might be useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lMbDO5xOpc
also found this longer one of lmp1 racing onboard during the 24h of lemans:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHhVi-7fLfc

Couldn't really find much on onboard footage for qualifying though.. got some family members that usually record the WEC races though, will ask them if they might have more usefull stuff in there somewhere :)

Interesting video's btw Doge :)

Doge
15-01-2016, 15:33
Thanks a lot for the effort mate!

The reason I use qualifying laps is because it takes away a lot of unwanted factors like tyre wear and fuel load. With race laps I never know what to do in the FP session with these two things, meanwhile with qualifying I know that, unless regulations say the opposite, tyres will be new and fuel load will be minimum.

hkraft300
16-01-2016, 01:36
tyres will be new and fuel load will be minimum.

Balls to the f*ing wall ;)
Only way to do it!

Doge
20-01-2016, 17:30
Time to check the fidelity of this little devil called Formula Gulf 1000. The track where they race 99% of the time is in the game so this needed to be done! Will a game record time be enough to beat real life track record?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXttK5XzR4

Leper Messiah
20-01-2016, 18:35
erm, anyone else think this is daft? No matter how accurate a sim is or isn't there is NO way at all that a sim running on a PC can mimic every single detail of the reality of a car on a track being driven hard. There are countless variables NOT simulated by ANY sim. All we can hope for is to get a ball park figure close to reality with a large +- either way. (of course I'm talking about sims sold as entertainment and NOT professional sims that pro teams use)

Off the top of my head....wind. Is there a game that can simulate wind direction and strength properly? And the way wind will often shift around so a head wind becomes a tail wind and vice versa? Does PCARS simulate that? I'm certain it doesn't. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a head wind will give a smeg load more downforce and a tail wind will increase top speed(gearing permitting). These will all affect a real lap and NOT a lap in game. I also think that sims allow aggressive kerb useage over and above what a real driver would attempt to take because we don't have to worry about damage to the tyres and possible punctures. Also no game properly simulate proper damage of suspension parts and engine parts so most people can drive a simulate car in ANY sim far more aggressively than a real driver could.

To use any evidence of this sort as a measure of how accurate a sim is, is frankly daft. It's interesting in a "let's see" sort of way, but that's about it.

sp3ctor
20-01-2016, 18:37
In that case how accurate are lap time comparisons, really?
You can have a 100% accurate physics track and tyre model, but you have aliens, unlimited practice time, lack of fear factor, beginner's luck etc all come in to play, and post a time 5 seconds under the RL lap record.

A bit of a ramble but...

Comparisons are interesting and, in the end, I'd like to have accurate cars and tracks. However, I think people underestimate the fear and physical aspects of driving an actual car or flying an actual plane compared to simulators. If I drive an actual MP4-12c and I put it into a wall, I have realistic consequences. It's going to be expensive and I might get hurt. If you don't believe that there is a fear factor, take your daily car out to a track and see if you drive it as fast as you drive in a simulator. Professionals - I think - reduce that "fear" (sort of) through years and years of training and practice.

Even with a 100% perfect simulator it's never going to be the same because simulated races and flights don't have the same consequences. I can take a simulated MP4-12c and run it as hard as I want. If I wreck, I restart and all is good. I'm not going to get hurt and it's not going to cost me anything so I can reduce the margins to nothing. Maybe if someone is standing next to me with a baseball bat ready to hit me in the face and destroy my rig when I wreck... but no one is going to pay for that game. :)

Similarly, driving a simulator in my house doesn't have the same physical strain as driving an actual car. Most of my muscles aren't having to work in the same way I would have to work on an actual track. I'm not sweating (as much). My helmet isn't weighing me down or fogging up. I can get up and use the restroom... whatever.

I agree that realism within the bounds of a playable game should be the goal but I think without context a simulator teaches you how to simulate more than actually teaching you how to drive. Luckily, simulating and driving are both fun.

Doge
20-01-2016, 18:47
Off the top of my head....wind. Is there a game that can simulate wind direction and strength properly? And the way wind will often shift around so a head wind becomes a tail wind and vice versa? Does PCARS simulate that? I'm certain it doesn't.

Worth a couple tenths at best, and only with really fast cars. Can account for small deviations, no excuse for the scenarios where the car is seconds off.


I also think that sims allow aggressive kerb useage over and above what a real driver would attempt to take because we don't have to worry about damage to the tyres and possible punctures. Also no game properly simulate proper damage of suspension parts and engine parts so most people can drive a simulate car in ANY sim far more aggressively than a real driver could.

Taken into consideration in every single one of the comparisons done up to today.


To use any evidence of this sort as a measure of how accurate a sim is, is frankly daft. It's interesting in a "let's see" sort of way, but that's about it.

Disagree. If you see a car consistently and considerably wrecking real life records by huge margins, it means your sim needs heavy work. Thatīs where we stand now.


However, I think people underestimate the fear and physical aspects of driving an actual car or flying an actual plane compared to simulators.

About fear, very valid point talking about cars like the Lotus 98T, complete non-issue in modern cars and tracks. About the physical side of driving, being in the car is a pro, not a con.

You train (and not exactly a huge lot compared to many other sports) to cope with it, and on exchange you get the best "force feedback" you can dream of getting.

sp3ctor
20-01-2016, 20:53
About fear, very valid point talking about cars like the Lotus 98T, complete non-issue in modern cars and tracks. About the physical side of driving, being in the car is a pro, not a con.

You train (and not exactly a huge lot compared to many other sports) to cope with it, and on exchange you get the best "force feedback" you can dream of getting.

I assume you mean modern cars are safer and thus the fear of physical injury isn't significant. I strongly disagree. Sure, you don't see multiple deaths per year in F1 like you used to but people still are seriously injured and killed in all types of motor sports. People are rarely killed in simulated races. Psychologically that makes a difference in how hard you might be willing to push. Cost is also a factor. Wreck an actual car and that costs money. Wreck a car in simulation and it costs nothing.

I also disagree about training. I think there is quite a bit more than you think. Maybe not on track, but it's far more physical than most people believe.

I'm not saying comparing simulated times to lap times is a bad idea. Ideally, the best track time by a pro should be your goal much in the same way any other person might use a professional athlete's performance as a benchmark for their own ability to play a sport. In theory, if you take a professional driver and put him in a simulator you would want those times to come pretty close to validate the simulator... but I think the absence of some of the realities of actually driving an actual car creates an advantage. Perhaps that advantage is negated by the non-professional nature of sim racing. I don't know. Interesting question.

Silraed
20-01-2016, 21:14
I have to agree with Sp3ctor, you can never disregard fear as a factor.

bcredeur97
20-01-2016, 21:21
I have to agree with Sp3ctor, you can never disregard fear as a factor.

fear and feel... In real life I can just feel the rear tires as if they are underneath me. I know when the car is about to slip at the rear. A force feedback wheel does not do justice.

I however, only autocross. So fear is quite limited for me as I don't fear much on the autoX circuit as we do it in huge open areas away from poles and walls (Well except for that one guy in the mustang who managed to crash into a pole 200 feet away from the course lol, but he was an idiot). But yeah, Project cars is cool. Assetto corsa is cool, but they just cant do justice for driving in real life. You can learn a lot from them about the basic physics of what a car will do based on your actions (this helped me A TON!) but other than that driving on the limit in a game and driving on the limit in real life are two totally different things for me.

hkraft300
21-01-2016, 01:12
Regardless I still do think this exercise is far from futile.
Some of the points raised by myself and sp3ctor and others surely bridge the performance gap and its hard to judge by how much. Maybe its these advantages that help mere mortals like ourselves post times close to/faster than pro RL records.
My point is, I don't think a simulator should be discounted for its accuracy if the lap times are regularly faster than RL records.

Bloody good for the ego isn't it ;)

I've seen a couple of videos a while ago where the GT academy guys spoke of how physically demanding it is to race a car on slicks at its limits round a track.
More recently a sim racer documented his experience when a RL F3 (I think) team gave him a test session around Catalunya. The G-forces and physical strain within a few laps had him gassed! And he's a relatively fit young man. Interesting stuff!
The sim racer (forgot his name) commented on adjusting from the feel of an ffb wheel to feedback coming from rear tyres. After a spin or 2 (recovering and not putting it into a wall was learnt in sim racing!) He adjusted and started putting in clean laps and had mid-pack pace by the end of the short day.

Sim racing will get you a long way to learning to drive a real race car fast round a track. Won't ever get you 100% there, but close :)

Anyhow, I think its a good thing :)

sp3ctor
21-01-2016, 03:27
Yeah, trust me, I'm not complaining. We had a total blast driving P1s in a night thunderstorm in California tonight. That's not something I'm ever going to do in an actual P1 because... yeah. P1, rain, California. Totally fun though.

Ian Bell
21-01-2016, 06:20
On the Dubai vid Doge. You're taking much more kerb everywhere.

I think this could be more interesting if you followed the lines of the reference vid accurately.

DJBLITZKRIEG
21-01-2016, 12:48
I was quiet disappointed to discover the GT86 accelerated to 100kmh a full half second quicker on the crappiest tyre in desert conditions.

Invincible
21-01-2016, 12:51
I was quiet disappointed to discover the GT86 accelerated to 100kmh a full half second quicker on the crappiest tyre in desert conditions.

Which gearing did you use? And did you shift with your H-SHifter?

Doge
21-01-2016, 21:23
On the Dubai vid Doge. You're taking much more kerb everywhere.

I think this could be more interesting if you followed the lines of the reference vid accurately.

I actually lost out badly in the last turn using too much curbing on the exit. It killed my exit, I was lucky the line is early down the straight. You can see it in the delta on the top right corner, I was on a PB until that point.

I am very careful to mimic this stuff as much as possible, you can see in the Nurburgring video I am very gentle over the last chicane curbs, and you know how easy to abuse they are in this game ;)

May I take the chance to say it would be cool extra accuracy on curbs for next game, so we donīt have to "police ourselves". Some are much easier to abuse than the real ones (like these ones I mentioned at NGK chicane) while some others are as treacherous as they are in the real track (the Brands Hatch ones force you to cut the BS behind the wheel and stick to a real line).

I donīt mind when they are even more treacherous than the real ones! The one on the outside of turn 1 @ Hockenheim is a killer in the game and in real life cars make a mockery of that zone.

Leper Messiah
23-01-2016, 08:14
Worth a couple tenths at best, and only with really fast cars. Can account for small deviations, no excuse for the scenarios where the car is seconds off.



Taken into consideration in every single one of the comparisons done up to today.



Disagree. If you see a car consistently and considerably wrecking real life records by huge margins, it means your sim needs heavy work. Thatīs where we stand now.



About fear, very valid point talking about cars like the Lotus 98T, complete non-issue in modern cars and tracks. About the physical side of driving, being in the car is a pro, not a con.

You train (and not exactly a huge lot compared to many other sports) to cope with it, and on exchange you get the best "force feedback" you can dream of getting.


1) A couple of tenths? Is that your opinion based on scientific study and fact or.....just an opinion?

2) Fair enough, but see below

3) Do a comparison test in other sims and see how far off the real times you are, being vastly below the time is in all likely hood equally indicative of a sims issues. Like I said, ALL sims cannot possible emulate EVERY aspect of reality.

4) Like the others I have to utterly and totally disagree with your dismissal of the fear factor, that alone makes a lot of your opinions suspects IMO.


I actually lost out badly in the last turn using too much curbing on the exit. It killed my exit, I was lucky the line is early down the straight. You can see it in the delta on the top right corner, I was on a PB until that point.

I am very careful to mimic this stuff as much as possible, you can see in the Nurburgring video I am very gentle over the last chicane curbs, and you know how easy to abuse they are in this game ;)

May I take the chance to say it would be cool extra accuracy on curbs for next game, so we donīt have to "police ourselves". Some are much easier to abuse than the real ones (like these ones I mentioned at NGK chicane) while some others are as treacherous as they are in the real track (the Brands Hatch ones force you to cut the BS behind the wheel and stick to a real line).

I donīt mind when they are even more treacherous than the real ones! The one on the outside of turn 1 @ Hockenheim is a killer in the game and in real life cars make a mockery of that zone.

Another thing you don't take into account is the fact that using NON laser scanned tracks means there is a significant margin of error of track accuracy. ONLY use the laser scanned tracks or your study is pointless.

MaximusN
23-01-2016, 12:40
4) Like the others I have to utterly and totally disagree with your dismissal of the fear factor, that alone makes a lot of your opinions suspects IMO.



Indeed fear, but not just simple fear for your life, I don't even think it's the biggest factor(it's a lot safer nowadays). As mentioned there's fear for repair cost and fear that your car won't be repaired for the next session, or a hit on the wall or kerbs might ruin your balance for that session, or overdriving the tires will make the tires useless for the rest of that session. Or fear that your less competent teammate will beat you because of stupid mistakes on your one chance balls out lap. Or plain simple fear of being mocked by your crew, the press and the crowd because you failed at having your car under control like you're supposed to as a professional driver(you only had one job ;) ). And then there's doubt: Is that vibration a problem? My car felt different in that corner the last session, or is it just me? Why is that idiot engineer always using the radio when I'm in the middle of a corner! This set of tyres is so much worse than the previous! Or am I making things up?

It's the fears that are also real in simracing, but not for all people. It's the reason the guys that set the top laps in practice and qualifying don't always win(or might even end up last). And the guys that set times 2 seconds slower (can) win races. I won(or finished high up) multiple races(also in iRacing, which is supposed to cater to the fear factor) where I qualified halfway down the field just because my mindset is keeping it neat instead of getting to the finish with a full set of hotlaps. And I try to not make up time lost in a mistake(in which I also do fail sometimes :) )

tldr:
Simracers have the privilige to learn the limit from going over it (and leaving the track or worse) to get a perfect lap and track knowledge. A racing driver wants to keep it to close calls(if that) if he's smart. In simracing I try to be the racing driver. :)

Doge
23-01-2016, 18:33
4) Like the others I have to utterly and totally disagree with your dismissal of the fear factor, that alone makes a lot of your opinions suspects IMO.


Yep, not going to agree there, at all, but Iīm not going to call your opinion "suspicious" because you disagree. Thatīs pretty daft.

There are guys racing motorbikes on the absolut limits of grip, in a much, MUCH more unsafe environment out there. There are guys riding road bicycles down semi-unknown roads on the absolut grip limits of a 2ī5 cm wheel, prone to be punctured by pretty much anything, with trees and bottomless pits as track limits, and spandex as crash protection.

Anyone with a hint of fear in the back of the head in anything other than freak circumstances (like spray walls) when racing a modern car around a modern racetrack is on the wrong business, and will be eaten alive by another 20 guys who donīt share this weakness.

Diamond_Eyes
23-01-2016, 19:28
Yep, not going to agree there, at all, but Iīm not going to call your opinion "suspicious" because you disagree. Thatīs pretty daft.

There are guys racing motorbikes on the absolut limits of grip, in a much, MUCH more unsafe environment out there. There are guys riding road bicycles down semi-unknown roads on the absolut grip limits of a 2ī5 cm wheel, prone to be punctured by pretty much anything, with trees and bottomless pits as track limits, and spandex as crash protection.

Anyone with a hint of fear in the back of the head in anything other than freak circumstances (like spray walls) when racing a modern car around a modern racetrack is on the wrong business, and will be eaten alive by another 20 guys who donīt share this weakness.

"Fear"... I think all you guys are actually talking about the same thing. Kind of like "love" in that it has a number of meanings

"Fear" in the (real) racing sense, and in my view, is kind of like a mixture of stage-fright and that feeling when you square-up to someone at school or outside the pub. The heartbeat rises and eyes are on stalks because you are pretty much always "just about to crash" and you know the consequences if you step over that line (crash-money, health, reputation). A good racer accepts these kind of feelings (fear) and but can make calculated rational decisions at the same time.

IMO if you have no fear then you are heading for a DNF, guaranteed. Or you ain't going fast enough. For general lapping or circulating then fine but when you are "racing" you're forced to challenge your own comfort zone and manage your fear so to speak

Check out Cal Crutchlow's eyes! He's millimetres away from an 'off' and he knows it. But I guess he kind of always look like that... So let's call it bravery rather than fear....

225888225889

bghorn55
23-01-2016, 22:15
4) Like the others I have to utterly and totally disagree with your dismissal of the fear factor, that alone makes a lot of your opinions suspects IMO.


Fear. Yes, fear can be a factor, but usually it isn't.
If you ever had to perform, repeatedly, in high risk activity, you'd know why...
Fear will negatively affect your cognitive abilities. Your response to risk under given circumstance will most likely be wrong. In racing terms, that usually means you will under perform, or even do something that will increase the risk of something bad happening.
So you have to overcome the fear. You overcome it by becoming more familiar with the activity. If you can't do it by yourself, you'll either need to seek professional help (wide variety of cognitive and exposure therapies available) example: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pinot-to-drive-racing-car-to-improve-descending/
or you stop doing it altogether.

This is not only second hand, but also personal experience from many years of various 'high risk' activities including occasional fast driving (on and off track).

Leper Messiah
24-01-2016, 18:13
tldr:
Simracers have the privilige to learn the limit from going over it (and leaving the track or worse) to get a perfect lap and track knowledge. A racing driver wants to keep it to close calls(if that) if he's smart. In simracing I try to be the racing driver. :)

Yup that's a damn good post right there and your ending sums it up perfectly imo.


Doge, I know motorcycling is dangerous as I rode for 13 years and even had a highside on a motorway sliproad in the wet on diesel (shakes fist at truckers overfilling tanks). Motorcycle racers are indeed on a totally different planet IMO, like rally drivers.....then you have the road racers on the top of the piole of having balls the size of planetoids!

But see the post from MaximusN for a better way of putting it than I ever could, it's not just about the "fear" of injury etc, there's FAR more repercussions of pushing it over the limit and failing. There are ZERO implications for crashing in a PC sim of racing, in reality there's a shed load of implications, whether people admit it or not it's those who can get as close to the limit in reality as possible without wrecking themselves or their budget. We will never know exactly how close racers are to the theoretical limits of the vehicle as the racers ARE the benchmarks.

One area I would agree that pCARS is too lenient is in grass grip, but is there any scientific data on exactly how much grip grass has?

TL DR
These studies are not as scientific as they want to be and don't really mean much other than being a study in how people in a game (which all sims are really) can go faster their real life counterparts in certain circumstances. Especially those made on tracks that are not laser scanned.

Leper Messiah
24-01-2016, 18:15
"Fear"... I think all you guys are actually talking about the same thing. Kind of like "love" in that it has a number of meanings

"Fear" in the (real) racing sense, and in my view, is kind of like a mixture of stage-fright and that feeling when you square-up to someone at school or outside the pub. The heartbeat rises and eyes are on stalks because you are pretty much always "just about to crash" and you know the consequences if you step over that line (crash-money, health, reputation). A good racer accepts these kind of feelings (fear) and but can make calculated rational decisions at the same time.

IMO if you have no fear then you are heading for a DNF, guaranteed. Or you ain't going fast enough. For general lapping or circulating then fine but when you are "racing" you're forced to challenge your own comfort zone and manage your fear so to speak

Check out Cal Crutchlow's eyes! He's millimetres away from an 'off' and he knows it. But I guess he kind of always look like that... So let's call it bravery rather than fear....

225888225889

Awesome picture.....motorcyclists.... bravery or stupidity only THEY know! I did some stupid stuff on my motorbikes, scared me so much undergarments had to be incinerated ;)

But we don't know the difference between how fast someone can go when they have zero fear factor.

Leper Messiah
24-01-2016, 18:21
Fear. Yes, fear can be a factor, but usually it isn't.
If you ever had to perform, repeatedly, in high risk activity, you'd know why...
Fear will negatively affect your cognitive abilities. Your response to risk under given circumstance will most likely be wrong. In racing terms, that usually means you will under perform, or even do something that will increase the risk of something bad happening.
So you have to overcome the fear. You overcome it by becoming more familiar with the activity. If you can't do it by yourself, you'll either need to seek professional help (wide variety of cognitive and exposure therapies available) example: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pinot-to-drive-racing-car-to-improve-descending/
or you stop doing it altogether.

This is not only second hand, but also personal experience from many years of various 'high risk' activities including occasional fast driving (on and off track).

interesting, but as I say above we Don't actually know how those without fear perform in these tasks. for all we know a scientific study (if it could be done) would prove that those with a zero fear factor and equal skill will outperform those who are managing said fears, which would explain why in a simulation with zero repercussion and thus zero fear people can attain faster times than reality (track accuracy notwithstanding).


Then again without the ability to completely match EVERY layer of reality that affects a car on track then we can't do a proper comparison, track temp, wind strength and direction, air density....just a few things on the top of my head that are not really simulated properly in a sim and all will have a signifiant impact on a cars performance and thus it's lap time.

Daynja
25-01-2016, 13:36
One this to note about games vs RL. I see people who make these videos using the gearbox like a codemasters game. physically the driver the the gulf car couldn't operate the shifter as viscously whilst cornering with the left hand and manage the clutch brake and throttle peddle. Drivers in RL are skilled and fast but they don't blib down instantly, like a games button press allows for. If he tried he would lock up and spin, and at teh very least mash the gearbox, Unfortunately games allow for this, not just pcars. I hate that it doesn't brake things as it should.

Take the recent SMS Esport championship. Look at the finalist videos. Ridiculous downshifting and the car doesn't explode in a raging fire and because it doesn't its giving the user a huge engine braking advantage (hence why they are doing it in the first place)

TLDR games need to model gearbox physics better to allow for simulated human input (not button presses) and real life physical stresses on metal, if its at all possible. I can only wish, perhaps.


A note to Ian. The helmet cam has the function to move and look to apex & lean at a certain point. Could you tie the drivers arm in an animation just before that so that the drivers arm goes to ready position on a the shifter stick so that it looks more natural, and do something similar when the cars revs reaches the red line. Currently the glitchy animation of a drivers hand going from wheel to gear stick/shifter looks really odd.

Just a suggestion ;)

hkraft300
25-01-2016, 13:45
Well either ignore/delay (to protect the box) the downshift request for sequential or, instant kaboom for a car with a manual h-box?
Because well either the engine or gearbox would go bang if you're too silly with it, no?

havocc
25-01-2016, 14:09
Take the recent SMS Esport championship. Look at the finalist videos. Ridiculous downshifting and the car doesn't explode in a raging fire and because it doesn't its giving the user a huge engine braking advantage (hence why they are doing it in the first place))

This is a terrible realism killer for me and i reported it in countless threads before, my only hope is that this will be fixed in pcars2 like AC did

hkraft300
25-01-2016, 14:19
Was esports like TT with no mech failure?
I'm sure if you have mech failure on you can't be doing silly downshifts.

sp3ctor
25-01-2016, 14:41
Fear. Yes, fear can be a factor, but usually it isn't.
If you ever had to perform, repeatedly, in high risk activity, you'd know why...

Right, I think the problem here is we have one word ("fear") that covers a wide range of things. I'm not suggesting people in high-risk endeavors are terrified or frightened the entire time. Like you said, if you can't fly a plane without being terrified, you are in the wrong business. Perhaps a better way of putting it is "healthy respect" - people in high-risk endeavors realize there is a line and know the consequences of crossing that line. Hence, they give the line a small margin. What I am suggesting is that when simulating high-risk endeavors one does not have that healthy respect because the consequences of crossing the line are non-existent.

Let's use a silly analogy: Let me suggest that if everyone had to put $100 in at the beginning of a race and that they could lose that money (or win more) they would drive very differently. Hit another driver -$10. Hit a wall -$10. Wreck your car entirely -$100. That's enough money that people would take it somewhat seriously. I'm not suggesting money = fear = healthy respect but it's a way to simulate the same seriousness.

Further, as I've said previously, we don't have the physical effects of driving. We aren't sweating in a car in summer heat fighting against the g-forces whilst trying to put in a fast lap time. That stuff matters. Have you seen any obese racers in any series (even NASCAR)? Probably not.

Like I said though, that doesn't make this a futile exercise. When I fly a simulator, I am trying to match - or exceed - the standards set by real pilots. When I drive a simulated race car, it's good to know what actual drivers can do... even if I can't touch those times.

hkraft300
25-01-2016, 15:02
Or
Confidence in your abilities.
Are you confident you can brake that late and make the turn.
Are you confident you can take this section flat.
Are you confident pushing so hard in sector 1 won't ruin the tyres for sector 3.

WizardOfOz
25-01-2016, 16:42
Or
Confidence in your abilities.
Are you confident you can brake that late and make the turn.
Are you confident you can take this section flat.
Are you confident pushing so hard in sector 1 won't ruin the tyres for sector 3.

You also missed the biggest one of all , you can not be killed while racing at home sitting in your chair :)

This is a massive factor to be able to go beyond real world limits, there is no fear of going to hard or two fast

E30_Hntsvl
25-01-2016, 22:25
I have a 2011 BMW 335i, with mostly M3 suspension, which I use for track days. I run the BMW 1M in game a lot. Don't know about the rest of the cars in the roster, never haven driven any of them on track, but the 1M handling is spot on. So spot on that my last track day I got home early enough to fire up pCars, jumped in the 1M, and my head had a hard time separating sim world from RL. I got dizzy and thought I was going to hurl after 5 minutes. Every nuance of the BMW's handling is replicated about as well as you can without wind and motion.

Doge
29-01-2016, 17:32
One more! This time the protagonist is the Formula Renault 3.5. Letīs see how the 8.0 changes affected this carīs pace, will it beat the real thing? The reference lap is a quali sim from Winter testing by Tom Dillmann, only 0.5 off the last pole position time of this series in this track. Gaps to the real absolut track record (from a Winter testing session too) also included in the description!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggqwsxrqJTA

Doge
02-02-2016, 12:39
If anyone knows of a source of good footage for LMP1 cars I would love to find one. I can find random onboard footage, and pretty long bits too, but thereīs no trace of qualifying laps!

Doge
07-02-2016, 17:21
Last time I made a test with a GT3 car it was the best result by a country mile, so I insisted in that class with another one to see if the pattern continues. This time I tested at Spa, using the McLaren MP4-12C. I did some qualifying runs with maximum respect for track limits and a sensible race setup, and compared it to Van Der Driftīs track record for this car, on the same day, time, and with the same weather. Hereīs the result!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rV1HvyPsd4

Zeke Bewlay
08-02-2016, 06:24
I haven't read all of this thread so sorry if this has been covered.
For me one big difference I find with RL is braking. I never feel like hard threshold braking works well in game. Admittedly the only in game circuit I've driven IRL is Bathurst, and also the advantages of savage late braking are often over sold,but nevertheless I feel like it's more effective to brake earlier and lighter in game.

PlaysK
08-02-2016, 07:40
I made a hotlap with the Megane RS 275 Trophy-R on the Nordschleife and synced it with the real footage from Renault Sport



https://youtu.be/hgYJ86bqV30

Doge
08-02-2016, 18:51
I haven't read all of this thread so sorry if this has been covered.
For me one big difference I find with RL is braking. I never feel like hard threshold braking works well in game. Admittedly the only in game circuit I've driven IRL is Bathurst, and also the advantages of savage late braking are often over sold,but nevertheless I feel like it's more effective to brake earlier and lighter in game.

That depends a lot on the car.

Cars with ABS reward A LOT late braking + heavy trail braking. You brake late, keep braking pretty hard all the way to the apex as you turn in, and get back straight on the power. The less coasting time in middle, the better. These cars do reward very late braking. Itīs one of the reasons I donīt enjoy GT3 cars much, itīs like handling a computer that controls your car instead of controlling the car yourself. Learning how to interact with TC and ABS is a bit of a pain.

With other cars (like the big single seaters) itīs as you say, itīs better to have most of the braking done in a straight line, trail brake with far less pressure as you turn in, and be a bit more consevative.

Yorkie065
17-02-2016, 16:48
I imagine this video will be pretty relevant for this thread :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8c9XsRi42k

hkraft300
17-02-2016, 23:21
Don't stamp on Doge's parade now you cheeky thread jacker, you ;)

Doge
24-02-2016, 17:54
Don't stamp on Doge's parade now you cheeky thread jacker, you ;)

That was actually nice to watch! Must have been frustrating like hell having to trundle around though, must be like one of these private dances where you canīt use your hands if you know what I mean;)

Now, before I forget why I resucitated this, I need help from an American racing fan. Iīm super excited about the Indycar and I need to know what are valid references for a comparison. I know the DW12 started being used in 2012, but what seasons should I use for the reference footage? Only that one? From that point on? Are the cars largely the same as seasons go by? Do they get upgrades every year?

Doge
08-03-2016, 18:58
Bumpity, because I really need that help. I'm mega curious about this car's performance. The game has tracks used by IndyCar so it's a perfect opportunity to test it, but I can't be fair if I don't know these details about the car's upgrades IRL after the debut in 2012.

Any IndyCar fan around to give me a hand?

r_outsider
09-03-2016, 02:03
Bumpity, because I really need that help. I'm mega curious about this car's performance. The game has tracks used by IndyCar so it's a perfect opportunity to test it, but I can't be fair if I don't know these details about the car's upgrades IRL after the debut in 2012.

Any IndyCar fan around to give me a hand?


Other than the aero kits introduced in 2015, there's been very few changes to the chassis since the cars came out. Basically some tweaks to the car to improve safety, don't recall any changes to the chassis beyond that. In 2014 they made everybody use a twin turbo setup (Honda had been using a single turbo), so if you're looking for laptime comparisons, I'd say 2014 is probably the most accurate, although '12 and '13 weren't far off, especially with the Chevrolet cars, IIRC.

Doge
06-05-2016, 17:28
Other than the aero kits introduced in 2015, there's been very few changes to the chassis since the cars came out. Basically some tweaks to the car to improve safety, don't recall any changes to the chassis beyond that. In 2014 they made everybody use a twin turbo setup (Honda had been using a single turbo), so if you're looking for laptime comparisons, I'd say 2014 is probably the most accurate, although '12 and '13 weren't far off, especially with the Chevrolet cars, IIRC.

Shit, I completely missed this message. I want to do some more of this stuff soon, and this is a good opportunity, Indy footage shouldnīt be hard to find (hopefully, I thought the same for LMP1 and it was impossible).

Thanks for the help mate!