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DreamsKnight
08-01-2016, 11:18
i'm a noob, so i can't understand the logic behind this option.

in my mind 50% of sims is to do a good setup 50% is to learn how to drive fast. and why I have not to adapt the car to my driving style? it's part of the game, but better, it's part of Real Racing.

reading here and there, reading some rules of online league, etc i found some emphasis about the mythical "default setup".

for me is fallout 4 without wepons, Assassin's creed without parcour, a sky without stars, a woman without... ok move on :P


this is not a critique, as said i'm a noob, so i'd like only to understand :D

Siberian Tiger
08-01-2016, 11:21
Mostly it has to do with time limitations, me thinks...

Many Peoples don't have enough time to fiddle hours of hours with setups...

They just like to race.

And in a default Setup Race you can judge how fast you are... (All the same Cards ;) )

t0daY
08-01-2016, 11:25
To be honest in my opinion the most important thing is your driving line. So many people believe with a good setup their laptimes will increase for 5-6 seconds.

You can achieve so good times just with the right racing line. Of course a good setup can give you maybe a second or two, depends heavily on the track.

With forced default setup everybody is running stock. It's then only about your line and your driver skills. It's sometimes nice to have such races but of course adjusting your car to the track with a setup is nicer to have (:

Bealdor
08-01-2016, 11:27
There are various reasons why one could prefer default setups:

1) Create/Simulate a spec racing series to take the engineering element out of the competition
2) Some people are great drivers but not so good engineers and still want to race in a close competitive environment.
3) Some players have the opinion that a race driver should not have to manage the engineering part because that's an engineer's job.
4) Limited time to create a competitive setup.

Personally I'm not a fan of forced default setups but I can understand why someone would prefer them.
Different strokes for different folks I'd say.

N0body Of The Goat
08-01-2016, 11:36
Because it then becomes how much can you wring the neck out of a fixed setup, when all using the same car.

With some suitable tweaking to the default setups, even if just standardising lap times better by simply using the restrictor slider, SMS could give us car series where every car make/model has a reasonable chance of competing for the win.

This is currently not the case at all from my point of view in the GT3 class, the default Aston GT3 is ~2min20.0secs around Spa in Time Trial, ~0.5secs clear of the Ginetta GT3 while I'm capable of ~2min21.5secs with most of the others. Then there is the Bentley GT3, ~2mins23.1secs. Maybe Spa is not a good comparison track, but it has a good mix of fast straights and a technical middle sector, plus it is a classic race venue. Maybe Time Trial does not make the unique advantage of every car shine through, because of the fixed fuel load, perhaps the bigger picture of endurance performance equalises race times better, because a car may post slower times but use less fuel and/or less tyre life compared to faster cars.

But then you have to consider what type of sim racer is going to race forced default setups online. I suspect endurance racing >30mins will not use such an option much at all, I suspect it will be used for races <30mins much more often. So equalisation based on a moderate sized race distance might be better for the audience likely to make use of such an option.

nono782
08-01-2016, 14:05
i'm a noob, so i can't understand the logic behind this option.

in my mind 50% of sims is to do a good setup 50% is to learn how to drive fast. and why I have not to adapt the car to my driving style? it's part of the game, but better, it's part of Real Racing.

reading here and there, reading some rules of online league, etc i found some emphasis about the mythical "default setup".

for me is fallout 4 without wepons, Assassin's creed without parcour, a sky without stars, a woman without... ok move on :P


this is not a critique, as said i'm a noob, so i'd like only to understand :D

For a change.
You are right, in a sim you drive and you set up your cars.
But once in a while, why not just race with the exact same car and setup ?

(+ It would be a nice idea to extend this option to some hotlap events)

Haiden
08-01-2016, 15:18
It definitely levels the playing field, and makes it more about driving skill. The only problem I see with it, is it doesn't take the global settings into account. Depending on your global configuration, the default Master Scale setting of 26 might be way too low. With no way to adjust it, some people find themselves racing with a feather light wheel. I think the Master Scale setting should remain accessible.

F2kSel
08-01-2016, 16:32
What happens with the forcefeed back settings what settings are being forced on people, you can't change them either when forced setup is in use.

gazza1101
08-01-2016, 16:50
I also struggle with the default setup, it ruins the Force feedback, I choose not to join a game with default setup, which is a pain with the MP lobbys getting less and less, I dont tune any car, I dont have time and am uninterested, default with FFB twaeks included I would happily join

Bealdor
08-01-2016, 17:46
What happens with the forcefeed back settings what settings are being forced on people, you can't change them either when forced setup is in use.

IIRC forced default setup still uses your custom car specific FFB settings.

ONT
09-01-2016, 09:06
Forced default CAR setting should not effect FFB or Graphics or Sounds just the CAR :)

If that's not the case....it needs to get fixed.

Fixed/forced CAR setups is fantastic for a quick race online :)

hkraft300
09-01-2016, 09:16
It definitely levels the playing field, and makes it more about driving skill. The only problem I see with it, is it doesn't take the global settings into account. Depending on your global configuration, the default Master Scale setting of 26 might be way too low. With no way to adjust it, some people find themselves racing with a feather light wheel. I think the Master Scale setting should remain accessible.

Same car levels the playing field. There's the setup database, and the garage section of this forum (and others?) For those who won't/can't develop their own. Fast guys are fast even with default setups that's what I've seen.
Forcing default puts some players at a disadvantage. I use my own setups to bridge the gap to fast guys as I'm not that fast myself, and playing with a gamepad has me at a disadvantage against quick wheel guys. Some cars are really hard for me on Force Default with no access to steering ratio adjustments.
If someone is quick, they don't care if their opponents are using setups or assists as it bridges the gap and/or poses a challenge.
I avoid the lobbies. For a level playing field, I'll do a 1-make race. Setups are not the magical answer to fast lap times. I know guys running default setups who, within 10 laps of practice, are 5+ seconds faster than me with many more laps and a developed setup. Its inspiring to watch their lap times tumble to ridiculous numbers and you wonder where/how they are finding the speed.

ONT
09-01-2016, 09:25
I don't think forced CAR setups should effect steering ratio for Your wheel or game-pad, pretty sure it doesn't in iRacing.

hkraft300
09-01-2016, 09:29
Steering ratio is in car setups. Forced default lobbies knock the steering ratio back to default.
I tend to run a slower ratio because I'm on a pad. Some tracks can do without a fast rack for more precise steering.

ONT
09-01-2016, 09:37
Not so good IMHO, all controller settings rate, FFB etc is separated in iRacing.

hkraft300
09-01-2016, 10:10
My controller settings remain. Its the steering ratio in car setup that gets locked out.
Like tyre pressures and brake pressures: some defaults are >90% but that's instant lock up for me without ABS.
Many default setups being very under steer biased makes for a difficult experience: Sauber C9, GT1 and Aston DBR1-2 for example.
Anyway each to their own. One-make racing is fun and tight, but forcing default setups in a lobby does not a spec series make.

F2kSel
09-01-2016, 10:37
IIRC forced default setup still uses your custom car specific FFB settings.

Only if you've set one up, if your driving the car for the first time your stuck with original default.
To change it you have to quit the session load the car in say TT setup FF save it find MP session and get back in.

Haiden
09-01-2016, 15:05
Forced default CAR setting should not effect FFB or Graphics or Sounds just the CAR :)

If that's not the case....it needs to get fixed.

Fixed/forced CAR setups is fantastic for a quick race online :)

I doesn't affect FFB, at least directly. It's only an issue if your global settings make the default in-car setting too light. If you're running the in-car Master Scale at 60 or above, then a forced default of 26 is probably going to be an issue, because the wheel will feel a lot light than normal for you.


Same car levels the playing field. There's the setup database, and the garage section of this forum (and others?) For those who won't/can't develop their own. Fast guys are fast even with default setups that's what I've seen.
Forcing default puts some players at a disadvantage. I use my own setups to bridge the gap to fast guys as I'm not that fast myself, and playing with a gamepad has me at a disadvantage against quick wheel guys. Some cars are really hard for me on Force Default with no access to steering ratio adjustments.
If someone is quick, they don't care if their opponents are using setups or assists as it bridges the gap and/or poses a challenge.
I avoid the lobbies. For a level playing field, I'll do a 1-make race. Setups are not the magical answer to fast lap times. I know guys running default setups who, within 10 laps of practice, are 5+ seconds faster than me with many more laps and a developed setup. Its inspiring to watch their lap times tumble to ridiculous numbers and you wonder where/how they are finding the speed.

But that's actually a level field, in terms of skill. You're not actually at a disadvantage. The other drivers are just more skilled. A true disadvantage would be driving a car that's mechanically inferior and offering you no chance of winning, like putting a F1 Marussia up against a Mercedes. Even if you cloned a driver and pitted him against himself, the Marussia wouldstand a chance against that Mercedes. I know what you mean, though. And it's why a lot of people don't like racing with defaults. I'm not one of the fast guys, but running defaults doesn't really bother me

bradleyland
09-01-2016, 15:28
What happens with the forcefeed back settings what settings are being forced on people, you can't change them either when forced setup is in use.

That was going to be my question.


IIRC forced default setup still uses your custom car specific FFB settings.

That would make sense to me. FFB settings aren't "setup", really. They just happen to be in the setup menu because that's the most logical place for them. They don't actually affect handling or grip.

RobMUFC1987
09-01-2016, 18:31
Same car levels the playing field. There's the setup database, and the garage section of this forum (and others?) For those who won't/can't develop their own. Fast guys are fast even with default setups that's what I've seen.
Forcing default puts some players at a disadvantage. I use my own setups to bridge the gap to fast guys as I'm not that fast myself, and playing with a gamepad has me at a disadvantage against quick wheel guys. Some cars are really hard for me on Force Default with no access to steering ratio adjustments.
If someone is quick, they don't care if their opponents are using setups or assists as it bridges the gap and/or poses a challenge.
I avoid the lobbies. For a level playing field, I'll do a 1-make race. Setups are not the magical answer to fast lap times. I know guys running default setups who, within 10 laps of practice, are 5+ seconds faster than me with many more laps and a developed setup. Its inspiring to watch their lap times tumble to ridiculous numbers and you wonder where/how they are finding the speed.

Reminds me of our 1st races together at Watkins Glen in the 98T. Barely touched the setup. I'd be leading qualifying or practice and someone will overtake me, I'd go out and find another 2 seconds. I think by the end, I was like 15 seconds faster than my 1st timed lap

hkraft300
09-01-2016, 21:53
Reminds me of our 1st races together at Watkins Glen in the 98T. Barely touched the setup. I'd be leading qualifying or practice and someone will overtake me, I'd go out and find another 2 seconds. I think by the end, I was like 15 seconds faster than my 1st timed lap

I tweaked and tweaked the setup yet was 5+ seconds slower! Didn't bridge the gap til you gave me some tips, and using your approach I've cut time by seconds everywhere in every car :)

So, Haiden, me driving a sim with a gamepad is not at a disadvantage against guys with a T500/ Fanatec gear?
That's me in the Marussia! Lol

Forced default broadens the gap of different cars in a class, be it GT3/ LMP. But some cars are great on default in a 1-make race.
Had an awesome race on forced default CLK-LM @ Zolder (invite from a mate I wouldn't refuse)
Highly recommended :)

RobMUFC1987
10-01-2016, 03:58
I tweaked and tweaked the setup yet was 5+ seconds slower! Didn't bridge the gap til you gave me some tips, and using your approach I've cut time by seconds everywhere in every car :)

So, Haiden, me driving a sim with a gamepad is not at a disadvantage against guys with a T500/ Fanatec gear?
That's me in the Marussia! Lol

Forced default broadens the gap of different cars in a class, be it GT3/ LMP. But some cars are great on default in a 1-make race.
Had an awesome race on forced default CLK-LM @ Zolder (invite from a mate I wouldn't refuse)
Highly recommended :)

Good to hear. At least I helped someone, should I say at least you listened to me rather than have a fit about me cheating or using a wheel when I said using a pad.

I believe all I told was my controller settings and the slow in, fast out approach?

hkraft300
10-01-2016, 05:43
The "slow in" approach, as it turns out, isn't slow at all ;)

SIR_Driftalot
10-01-2016, 09:42
It definitely levels the playing field, and makes it more about driving skill. The only problem I see with it, is it doesn't take the global settings into account. Depending on your global configuration, the default Master Scale setting of 26 might be way too low. With no way to adjust it, some people find themselves racing with a feather light wheel. I think the Master Scale setting should remain accessible.

This is my only issue with default set ups. I've spent a lot of time getting my FFB settings the way I like them,and to have them reverted to default just makes me quit the lobby before I even manage to turn a lap.

Forced no Assists, manual gears, forced cockpit, long race, short race, qualy or no qualy, any car, any track, almost any time, none of these bother me, but as soon as I see default set ups, I quit the lobby.

graveltrap
10-01-2016, 10:42
I thought that the game loaded your saved FFB values from the car setup, of course for this to work you need to have a saved setup for car and track before the race is launched. Simply allowing users to use alternate FFB settings destroys the level playing field as it can have as much impact on how the car is to drive as the actual car settings!

IMO if setups are forced then assists should be also forced as well, 'real' is probably the best solution here...

DreamsKnight
10-01-2016, 10:56
Mostly it has to do with time limitations, me thinks...

Many Peoples don't have enough time to fiddle hours of hours with setups...

They just like to race.

yes, this could be a good motivation



To be honest in my opinion the most important thing is your driving line. So many people believe with a good setup their laptimes will increase for 5-6 seconds.

You can achieve so good times just with the right racing line. Of course a good setup can give you maybe a second or two, depends heavily on the track.

With forced default setup everybody is running stock. It's then only about your line and your driver skills. It's sometimes nice to have such races but of course adjusting your car to the track with a setup is nicer to have (:

i understood late, but yes, first at all driving line.

but sometimes i found some cars that i can't drive without minor tweaks. with two click i go from unable to do a turn to go fast.



There are various reasons why one could prefer default setups:

1) Create/Simulate a spec racing series to take the engineering element out of the competition
2) Some people are great drivers but not so good engineers and still want to race in a close competitive environment.
3) Some players have the opinion that a race driver should not have to manage the engineering part because that's an engineer's job.
4) Limited time to create a competitive setup.

Personally I'm not a fan of forced default setups but I can understand why someone would prefer them.
Different strokes for different folks I'd say.

1) no engineering? in motorsport? same as no pots at masterchef!
2)good
3)engineers do what the pilot say to them. except mansell. so i think we have engineers inside the mouse ;)
4)oh yes.


I tweaked and tweaked the setup yet was 5+ seconds slower! Didn't bridge the gap til you gave me some tips, and using your approach I've cut time by seconds everywhere in every car :)

give also us these tips :)



And in a default Setup Race you can judge how fast you are... (All the same Cards ;)


It definitely levels the playing field, and makes it more about driving skill.

both sure? i disagree.

F1 2014 season. i'm italian, i love Ferrari. :) someone out there think that Alonso is so faster than Raikkonen? and Raikkonen became the slower driver in f1 in 3 months? i think it was the car and the setup.

F1 2014 and f1 2015 seasons: unfortunately, these two years the competition is almost only among teammates. we can clearly see how a not so good setup kills the faster driver. (rosberg hamilton?)


I believe that if the machine does not fit like a glove to your driving style, you can be fast but not the fastest one.

in each case, thanks to all.

hkraft300
10-01-2016, 13:03
give also us these tips :)


He just got me braking a fraction early.
I was braking super late, then fighting the car through the corner to stabilise it.
Now I brake a fraction early and the tyres aren't so stressed, my turn-in and corner speeds are faster, stable, consistent, and result is my exit speeds are quicker.
Many other flow on benefits with it :)

RobMUFC1987
10-01-2016, 13:15
He just got me braking a fraction early.
I was braking super late, then fighting the car through the corner to stabilise it.
Now I brake a fraction early and the tyres aren't so stressed, my turn-in and corner speeds are faster, stable, consistent, and result is my exit speeds are quicker.
Many other flow on benefits with it :)

I think people get put off by the "slow" bit and see a lot of people say the fastest way is to brake at the latest possible moment. While that is true, your latest possible moment will be different from others for stability in the corner

Haiden
10-01-2016, 17:13
F1 2014 season. i'm italian, i love Ferrari. :) someone out there think that Alonso is so faster than Raikkonen? and Raikkonen became the slower driver in f1 in 3 months? i think it was the car and the setup.

F1 2014 and f1 2015 seasons: unfortunately, these two years the competition is almost only among teammates. we can clearly see how a not so good setup kills the faster driver. (rosberg hamilton?)


I believe that if the machine does not fit like a glove to your driving style, you can be fast but not the fastest one.

in each case, thanks to all.

I think there was more to Raikkonen's problems than the car's setup. He was also battling for his job earlier in the season. Mental state has a lot to do with performance at that level. Raikkonen's problems are more related to his aggressive style than the car.

The Rosberg and Hamilton variance isn't really applicable here. Hamilton's setup changed toward the end of the season. That's what affected him. He was used to having the car one way and then the setup was altered. If both drivers had been moved to a new setup (like forcing defaults), then you could use that as an example. But if you only force one driver to use the default setups, and let everyone else drive their custom tunes, of course the driver running defaults will be slower. He's the only one being forced to adapt.

AndrexUK
11-01-2016, 14:41
What I find confusing, (It doesn't take much, I assure you) is why some lobbies have fully open car selection, and still use 'forced default setups'....
IMO Forced defaults setups are to level the playing field, and make it purely about the driver, not the driver + setups skills! And that's awesome in my books (we are hoping to setup a Formula 3.5 Fixed setup league very soon, and that's exactly what that setting is for (I don't have the time to work on the setup to be right at the front, as the GT3 league has the priority for me > so the default setup should still let me be competitive).

So yes, forced setup, on a single make race = great, but I joined about 3 servers last night (PC) which had full car selection, but forced setup, and I don't understand why...
There were so many different cars / classes on the track, that the point of default is, well....pointless???
I was joining to see if I could beat some of the faster cars while driving a lower class, just for fun...

Even joined a GT3 only race which had open GT3 car selection, but forced defaults... better than fully open car choice, but still.....
I don't know how the default setup is tuned by SMS, but I can't see this example creating a level playing field between the entire class ? :s

I guess there are a lot of people that don't think the same as I do, (but that's probably for the best...).