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Ezuna
09-01-2016, 02:56
All I see on other forums are comments like -

'at least this has xyz unlike that buggy pile of crap pCars'

'tried it for 30 mins and it was so bad I got a Steam refund'

'pCars is only for COD kids'

etc etc

I have to say I am loving this SIM....is this just people ranting for the sake of it? Am I the only one that feels spoiled every time I fire this up? Am I the only one continually amazed?

Lewis Puppy
09-01-2016, 03:14
The best explanation is that Assetto Corsa was in development for far longer than PCARS for PC. And lots of people bought AC along with lots of their DLC, thus spending a ton of time and money on it. Then they became shocked (and appalled) that PCARS was such an incredible game which came with lots of cars & tracks standard with just a fraction of the cost. And so many of the people who already bought into AC got bu.tthurt and became PCARS haters and trolls on Steam. They also don't want AC to die as a result of PCARS sales.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-01-2016, 04:41
The best explanation is that Assetto Corsa was in development for far longer than PCARS for PC.I don't know if this is true actually, AFAIK the first public releases about AC were released in December 2011, two months after the WMD project for pCARS had already started. I'd say both came out roughly at the same time (rF2 came out almost exactly at the same time as well).

But yeah, a lot of it has to do with fanboyism, which is a massive massive problem in the sim racing community for whatever reason, and has been for decades. No-one is allowed to like more than one sim at a time, and since pCARS actually wanted to get a large audience and was developed for consoles as well, and because it isn't as slippery as the sims that came before, many many people in the sim community decided early on that pCARS is and always will be pure and utter sh*t. There's the rF2 crowd that downplays the achievements of both AC and pCARS, there's the AC crowd that views AC as the only real sim out there at the moment, and there's the long standing iRacing crowd that is convinced nothing can ever touch a former-Papyrus product, these guys made GPL after all! </sarcasm>. And there are outposts for RRRE and Stock Car Extreme as well. Some even still carry the flag of Live For Speed.

I don't know why but sim racing has so far been the single most toxic fandom I've ever been involved with, and I've been looking at it for the last 15+ years. There are some sensible people who recognize the merits of each individual sim, actually buy and play all of them to support sim racing in general, and overall keep a level head about things. Unfortunately it does seem that the majority of the fandom thinks there can be only one, and pCARS will always lose automatically because it's available on consoles. Looking forward to seeing what happens when AC's console version comes out though...

But yeah, it's mostly just internet talk without any real substance. I've been sim racing for well over two decades now, and have tried almost every single sim that has come out during that time, and I still have most of them installed, just to refresh my memory every now and then. pCARS is far from perfect (and no sim will ever be perfect, I think), but it's at the very least competitive with every single sim and racing game out there, and in many parts leading the pack by miles.

3800racingfool
09-01-2016, 05:09
But yeah, a lot of it has to do with fanboyism, which is a massive massive problem in the gaming community for whatever reason, and has been for decades.

FTFY.

Somehow, for some reason, people got it in their heads that pcars was going to be the racing game to end all racing games. It was going to be gran turismos car selection mixed with iracings "ultra realistic" physics and look better than forza. Then, when people actually saw the game for what it was, a first game developed by a new, fledgling company who took the unorthodox approach of doing everything out in the open for everyone to see, they flipped their lid because felt betrayed out of their 60 bucks. This compounded upon the realization that pcars wasn't going to be supported for an eternity but would follow the path of almost every other major game and have a sequel.

Essentially, the transparency from sms is both the game's strength as well as it's downfall because, to the surprise of no one who knows better, most people can't handle the truth.

DECATUR PLAYA
09-01-2016, 05:21
All I see on other forums are comments like -

'at least this has xyz unlike that buggy pile of crap pCars'

'tried it for 30 mins and it was so bad I got a Steam refund'

'pCars is only for COD kids'

etc etc

I have to say I am loving this SIM....is this just people ranting for the sake of it? Am I the only one that feels spoiled every time I fire this up? Am I the only one continually amazed?

A man just love it.

You will learn to just love it and ignore the hate. There are some guys out here who have very valid opinions but 80% of the negative is just hate. You stay out here long enough and you will know which is which. I was thinking up this huge posts to write and I said screw it it ain't worth the energy. Just had a huge shot of Jack Daniel's don't really feel like any negativity right now.

blk95cars
09-01-2016, 06:36
Im enjoying the game testing different settings etc . Thinking that they are making a pcars2 just makes me think wtf? Pcars looks like it was released unfinished and missing so much improvements. I dont think people hate it i just think buyers felt the game will bring more to the table with more cars that same concept we all know on pc. Majority sims have new dlc cars packs like AC. Maybe even some more historical versions. I cant understand how developers think, monza silverstone etc tracks are all the same. Why cant they develope a physics model that adds cars and add ons to the equations. They dont realize most sim racers will spend the money to have the most detail that can possibly put into a game. Guys spend thousands on a pc even game consoles setups. Id rather have 1 good game and add to it with DLCs to make it a big game. I dont care if i have to spend 40 bucks on an ferrari pack. Even 35 bucks for a snow or ice race conditions add on.
A sim race game is the physics after that its the details. Now assetto corsa coming out it wont have weather conditions people will complain about that. Just make 1 game that builds everyone will be surprised how much people will spend these days for added details. When we say details its unlimited and never stops to transform it to another game.

Salty Dog
09-01-2016, 06:37
Best racing game ive played and the best ps4 game full stop imo, i cant get enough and play the shite outa this game.

Im an offline player so i dont get a lot of the negatives that online players get, and im not the best judge because im not that experienced at sim racing so i lack the perspective that many others have but i just like the game for what it is, theres a few small issues for me but its a rough diamond, i love it.

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 07:48
Why the hate? Because people ;)

Fernandito
09-01-2016, 08:00
The best explanation is that Assetto Corsa was in development for far longer than PCARS for PC. And lots of people bought AC along with lots of their DLC, thus spending a ton of time and money on it. Then they became shocked (and appalled) that PCARS was such an incredible game which came with lots of cars & tracks standard with just a fraction of the cost. And so many of the people who already bought into AC got bu.tthurt and became PCARS haters and trolls on Steam. They also don't want AC to die as a result of PCARS sales.You must be 12

balderz002
09-01-2016, 08:02
Why the hate? Because people ;)

People will be people.....................

Leper Messiah
09-01-2016, 08:17
Here's my theory, I think most of the people who hate the game play mainly online. This type of person NEEDS a lot of other players playing the same game, so when their game of choice gets a major rival and a hint that players will migrate to another sim these types lose all sanity/reasoning/objectivity and spew rants and hatred.

You also have those "sheeple" types who blindly believe hype and marketing. I've never succumbed to marketing hype, it's almost ALWAYS over the top and promises far more than what can actually be delivered. These types have very little or even no common sense whatsoever.

I Love Projects CARS...... but I'm also really disappointed in many areas (Im sure the devs are too as they are clearly perfectionists), so I can understand the sane complaints. It's not a perfect game, but then NONE of the other sims are perfect.

EVERY single game has bugs and issues, modern games are vastly complex and sims are right at the top of complexity because weird behaviour in other games can be explained with "handwaivium", can't do that in a sim so the issues are often glaring and can knock immersion considerably. I play Elite Dangerous quite a bit and almost EVERY patch or update creates new issues and bugs!! Even AFTER weeks of beta testing by many in the Elite community.

TL: DR.....some people are dicks

Cheesenium
09-01-2016, 08:28
I played games from many genres, I think racing has one of the worst fanboyism among it's community to the point I think MOBAs or FPS community arent as bad. I never really understand why people have this attitude that one should be loyal to a game then dislike all other games in the market as these are videos games to begin with, not political parties, football clubs or religion. Just play any game you like to play while ignore the ones you did not enjoy, not jump on the hate bandwagon that some of these people trying to encourage people to do. I dont like iracing(expensive business model and no SP races), rfactor 2(dull looking graphics and over reliance on modders for content) and Grand Turismo(awful car lists with way too many duplicates, standard/premium car model and physics feels very odd to me), does that mean that I should start a hate campaign towards those games?

I think most of all these fanboyism are largely based on subjective opinion if not anecdotal evidence. I mean, large majority of us have very little knowledge about how cars supposed to work, never driven 99% of the cars in a racing game or very likely most never driven a car at it's limits, how would one know if a game's physics are done correctly? Or how a car should drive when one never driven one before? In contrast to developers who had been developing these games for years with actual data from manufacturers, consultations from real drivers who driven it or even driven the real thing. In the mean time, things like FFB are extremely subjective to one's taste which I think there isnt a right or wrong answer to how to implement FFB.

At the end, most of all these talks have little to no substance with all these toxicity causing issues to the development from public perception issues to reduced sales until a developer, Bugbear who used to develop fairly authentic Rally Trophy games stopped making realistic racing games due to the toxicity of the racing community. Bugbear did say that they will never make another Rally Trophy because of all these unwarranted hate on them and another developer, Kunos, did mention that all these toxicity from the community does affect their morale and also their reputation in dealing with manufacturers. It brings no good to the developers and also no benefit to consumer with less competitors in the market because competition breeds innovation.

pCARS was never a perfect game to me and it will never be for me. There are a lot of things I like about pcars such as it's unique selection of cars from different eras, ridiculously large track list, night racing, dynamic weather and pretty damn good graphics. However, there are also issues that I am not pleased with the game like announcing pcars 2 a little too early(but it is reasonable based on what I saw in WMD), minor bugs that are still present, quite a few lackluster DLCs with DLC support ending soon and the list goes on. AC, GSCE, R3E and so on all have their own strengths and weakness which at the end, I rather just play them all to experience the best of this genre can offer.

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 08:29
You must be 12
And that is no way to maintain a discussion. If you disagree, provide non-personal arguments. Or at least word your personal opinion in a decent, non-aggressive way.

I also don't agree with what Lewis Puppy wrote, but that doesn't mean I'm going to resort to ad-hominem attacks/arguments.

NemethR
09-01-2016, 08:29
Here's my theory, I think most of the people who hate the game play mainly online...

That, so far is true...
- Now if you play online, and get a serious framerate issue, on Ruapuna, where the game is near undriveable that is not so good...
- When you on the same track, or Cadwell park go out of the pits, and the pit speed limiter stays turned on, and you loose a lap because of this, well, people get frustrated.
- When you race at Silverstone classic online, after qualifying 5th, and you are placed on in the pit box, instead of the starting grid, guess what, people get upset.
- Now it can also be, that you try to race at Hockenheim Classic, and half the grid is placed at random points over the rack, some in the air, some below ground, that does not make for a good race.... so, you retry it, do the qualifying again, and again the same. Half the grid is spread randomly across the track...

And after reporting these issues, (especially number 2), and 6 months later, the same issue is still there, mabye, people get upset a bit...

Project cars, is the best looking racing game out there, it has the best feel of all the games I have driven, yet unfortunately, it also has the most bugs.

At this point I have come to the stage, where I do not play Career, as it is full of bugs, I cannot play Free Practice, as my game freezes, because the game corrupted my savegame file, I do play online, but its full of bugs, and frustrating as hell, I do not look at my statistics as the game can't add together the races won, and the races where I placed 2nd, 3rd, etc... (after all 10+25+99 = 134)
225106
because the statistics are complete bull***, so I just drive random tracks in random cars, in time trial, as that is the only place I do not get frustrated.

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 08:37
FTFY.

Somehow, for some reason, people got it in their heads that pcars was going to be the racing game to end all racing games. It was going to be gran turismos car selection mixed with iracings "ultra realistic" physics and look better than forza. Then, when people actually saw the game for what it was, a first game developed by a new, fledgling company who took the unorthodox approach of doing everything out in the open for everyone to see, they flipped their lid because felt betrayed out of their 60 bucks. This compounded upon the realization that pcars wasn't going to be supported for an eternity but would follow the path of almost every other major game and have a sequel.

Essentially, the transparency from sms is both the game's strength as well as it's downfall because, to the surprise of no one who knows better, most people can't handle the truth.
Exactly this. People got it into their heads that pCARS was going to be the greatest racing sim, well, because SMS is aiming for the pCARS franchise to be just that. However, the thing that people missed, or failed to understand, is that a goal is something different than a promise. During the development of pCARS1 SMS was very transparent about how choices were made and what limitations they ran into that prevented them from implementing and doing everything they wanted to do. This was either missed by those not into WMD, or ignored/misunderstood/not accepted, leading to specific complaints and disappointment about what was and was not in the game at release.

But that's a more pCARS-specific issue that just adds up to the general gaming fanboyism that seems to go with the territory. I said it before, I just cannot understand why people just can't say "I personally like game A better than game B because of X and Y" and leave it at that and not try to convince others that game A is better in absolute terms, or state that people playing game B are just idiots. It doesn't achieve anything, other than useless wasting of time and energy.

FR-Alan
09-01-2016, 08:57
IMO,
Game is amazingly looking, give some good fun and is challenging like a sim.
However, to be a sim, i mean, car are for racing, the game has to bug and instability or missing feature. Sim is good, but the competition side is not strong enough.
I explain :
- missing your own personnal performance (times, sectors etc...) stored somewhere (except maybe with some external apps who should already be in game),
- tuning/settings your car is pain in the a**. Moreover, patch changes behaviour and reset what you understood before (means stability) and you have to start all over again,
- forced default setup are not quite default setup (fuel randomly or tires not set to default),
- some buggs are furstrating but it s common on others games (freeze, etc...) so it s part of games in general and i ll let it appart as not taking part to allow PCARS to be a sim game.
Short story : the competition side is killed by missing features or instability (made by the game itself or changes made by patch). So when you canno t compete on equity, i can't call a game : a "RACE SIM".
Regards

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 09:03
Short story : the competition side is killed by missing features or instability (made by the game itself or changes made by patch). So when you canno t compete on equity, i can't call a game : a "RACE SIM".

And this is where most of the bickering starts (and I've argumented this before already): sim racers have their own personal definition of what makes a "sim", and then start declaring a game to not be a sim because of that personal definition. And all hell breaks loose because "sim" means something else for everyone else, but "sim" is treated as an absolute truth instead of a personal opinion, the a-word is thrown in, sim elitism springs to life and we're all bickering about who's right and wrong.

JessicaWalter
09-01-2016, 09:11
if you can't delete a swimming pool while your significant other is high diving into it, it's not a sim 0_0

CHEN255
09-01-2016, 09:15
It appears to me that PCars has attracted the most hatred out of all the sims. IRacing players seem to hold their game in the highest esteem and seem to be the ones most disposed to have an extreme hatred towards PCars. I have heard some of the most ridiculous reasons as to why they believe PCars is bad while completely ignoring the flaws in IRacing.
I agree that PCars appearance on consoles has contributed to much of the vitriole, some cannot accept that a sim is even possible on consoles and are only too eager to shoot this game down in flames at the least opportunity.

Mad Al
09-01-2016, 09:19
IMO,
Game is amazingly looking, give some good fun and is challenging like a sim.
However, to be a sim, i mean, car are for racing, the game has to bug and instability or missing feature. Sim is good, but the competition side is not strong enough.
I explain :
- missing your own personnal performance (times, sectors etc...) stored somewhere (except maybe with some external apps who should already be in game),
- tuning/settings your car is pain in the a**. Moreover, patch changes behaviour and reset what you understood before (means stability) and you have to start all over again,
- forced default setup are not quite default setup (fuel randomly or tires not set to default),
- some buggs are furstrating but it s common on others games (freeze, etc...) so it s part of games in general and i ll let it appart as not taking part to allow PCARS to be a sim game.
Short story : the competition side is killed by missing features or instability (made by the game itself or changes made by patch). So when you canno t compete on equity, i can't call a game : a "RACE SIM".
Regards

So you want a sim, but you think the tuning and setup in a GAME is a pain in the arse... try setting stuff up in the real world, you get one setup and that's the one on the car and it doesn't change with a quick load of the data.
Short story, they are all games.

ONT
09-01-2016, 09:20
And this is where most of the bickering starts (and I've argumented this before already): sim racers have their own personal definition of what makes a "sim", and then start declaring a game to not be a sim because of that personal definition. And all hell breaks loose because "sim" means something else for everyone else, but "sim" is treated as an absolute truth instead of a personal opinion, the a-word is thrown in, sim elitism springs to life and we're all bickering about who's right and wrong.

I think we can all agree instability and game braking bugs are not good :)

It could still be a SIM....but not a fully functional one :)

FR-Alan
09-01-2016, 09:59
@remco, jessica and mad,
Race is time : as soon features are missing to understand your time -> it is not complete
Settings : i'm doing it (even if it s not my passion) if i was sure everyting was usefull (not sure about camber, not sure about tire pressure, not sure about tire heating...) -> That s why i prefer forced defaut setup for competition. We will always found aliens who find the perfect setting even if the physic is a non sense...(it s not my kind of competition). For jessica : start to gimme a pool wich behaviour is always the same and not change after each patch.
Finally if i wanted a driving physic SIM (without competition), i think i ll have find a driving licence software...

Lewis Puppy
09-01-2016, 10:01
I don't know if this is true actually, AFAIK the first public releases about AC were released in December 2011, two months after the WMD project for pCARS had already started. I'd say both came out roughly at the same time (rF2 came out almost exactly at the same time as well).

My experiences and recollections are that AC was available for purchase on Steam for a far longer period of time than PCARS. I remember PCARS being closed for beta testing purchase leading up to game release whereas AC was readily available for purchase at any time.

Leper Messiah
09-01-2016, 10:06
It appears to me that PCars has attracted the most hatred out of all the sims. IRacing players seem to hold their game in the highest esteem and seem to be the ones most disposed to have an extreme hatred towards PCars. I have heard some of the most ridiculous reasons as to why they believe PCars is bad while completely ignoring the flaws in IRacing.
I agree that PCars appearance on consoles has contributed to much of the vitriole, some cannot accept that a sim is even possible on consoles and are only too eager to shoot this game down in flames at the least opportunity.

GSCE players and RF2 players too, There's Empty Box as well and David Ignoramus from Race dept, those two have such hatred I expect them to finish their Death Star soon!! ;)

presuming ed
09-01-2016, 10:09
The best explanation is that Assetto Corsa was in development for far longer than PCARS for PC. And lots of people bought AC along with lots of their DLC, thus spending a ton of time and money on it. Then they became shocked (and appalled) that PCARS was such an incredible game which came with lots of cars & tracks standard with just a fraction of the cost. And so many of the people who already bought into AC got bu.tthurt and became PCARS haters and trolls on Steam. They also don't want AC to die as a result of PCARS sales.

You realise that posting this kind of rubbish on this forum is the cause of the hate, right?

Someone asked why there is such negativity towards one title. Why did you have to answer by posting hate about another one?

I don't know why I wasted this time on you but I added up the cost of each title and all its available DLC on Steam.

Project CARS - 72.70
Assetto Corsa - 54.96

So to answer the question in the title of this thread - people like you, @Lewis Puppy.

Invincible
09-01-2016, 10:15
Haters gonna hate.

Although I was really surprised by the stiff breeze pcars and SMS experienced even during development. I think it was partly because the game was hyped to a point, where meeting the expectations just became impossible by any means.
This fuelled all the people who wanted to see pcars going down because they feared that their favorite "SIM" was going to loose prominence even more.

David McKenna
09-01-2016, 10:17
Fanboyism = childishness in my book. Project cars is great, Forza 6 is great, Driveclub is great and the PC has many great driving games too. They are just GAMES !!

Lewis Puppy
09-01-2016, 10:20
You realise that posting this kind of rubbish on this forum is the cause of the hate, right?

Someone asked why there is such negativity towards one title. Why did you have to answer by posting hate about another one?

So to answer the question in the title of this thread - people like you, @Lewis Puppy.

My answer to the OP is due to much of my time spent on steam sites. I also felt the same way as the OP and always the common thread that gets brought up on both sites are "PCARS or AC, I only have money for one and which should I buy?"

You would know this if you ever ventured outside this forum

Ixoye56
09-01-2016, 10:44
There is nothing to bother about, it's obviously children (fanboys) who spreading this ridiculous hate online, they don't have wisdom to understand better.

As67
09-01-2016, 10:49
That, so far is true...
At this point I have come to the stage, where I do not play Career, as it is full of bugs, I cannot play Free Practice, as my game freezes, because the game corrupted my savegame file, I do play online, but its full of bugs, and frustrating as hell, I do not look at my statistics as the game can't add together the races won, and the races where I placed 2nd, 3rd, etc... (after all 10+25+99 = 134)

Podium is either 1, 2 or 3 so it's not 10+25 but 25 only.

maxpainpayne
09-01-2016, 11:31
And this is where most of the bickering starts (and I've argumented this before already): sim racers have their own personal definition of what makes a "sim", and then start declaring a game to not be a sim because of that personal definition. And all hell breaks loose because "sim" means something else for everyone else, but "sim" is treated as an absolute truth instead of a personal opinion, the a-word is thrown in, sim elitism springs to life and we're all bickering about who's right and wrong.


I think you are promoting the bickering by taking fr-alan's "race sim" statement out of context and just calling it "sim".

"race sim" should be competitive and rewarding, whereas just "sim" is just an ordinary simulation of anything; two totally different things here.

example: EA sports madden nfl is a "football sim" but if it was missing the scoreboard, had deflated balls (pcars deflated tires exiting pits) and full of other game breaking bugs, it can only be called "sim" instead of an "official NFL Football SIM" right?.

"why the hate?" well many people feel this way about pcars not being a proper "racing sim" but instead of acknowledging those critical missing components, we give them sour grapes in order cover up the bad and only show the good.

some people that hate the game actually want to love the game. but they are tired of hearing:

1) pcars is better than *****. they would rather see it fixed and proven.

2) tired of hearing "hurrah we win GOTY" when the game still haven't fixed the flat tire issues.

Im not not calling any names but this is classic example of how to destroy a game by overhyping it.

pcars should have acknowledge issues that really caused the hate, understand severity of these fatal game problems.

failed load save, AI drivers, no progressional rewards, gamepad controller issues, and leader boards lack there of;

instead of giving them sour grapes.

people that hate are thinking, how are you praising this game so much with all these glaring bugs still there, please fix first then rejoice after it's fixed.

Mad Al
09-01-2016, 11:43
....
pcars should have acknowledge issues that really caused the hate, understand these are fatal game problems.
....

Except, a lot of the hate started in 2011 with a bunch of people who wouldn't change their tune even if Project CARS simulated everything including getting to shag some grid girls after winning the race and paying you real prize money...

and all the so called EA sims are still JUST GAMES.... which is what most people seem to be forgetting.

Frankly if you are not enjoying the bloody game... don't play it.. it's really that damned simple... I keep trying to get on with AC and frankly every time I try it I find it even less appealing (but I still purchased all their DLC in the vain hope they would stop making the game worse with each update..)

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 12:32
There is nothing to bother about, it's obviously children (fanboys) who spreading this ridiculous hate online, they don't have wisdom to understand better.

I wish that that were true, but unfortunately some of the most rabid haters and fanboys (and not only of pCARS BTW) are adult, even middle-aged men who should know better.

BigFred
09-01-2016, 12:42
To me a lot of the state stems from the use of WMD.

Like it or not, WMD is divisive. You are either part of that, or you aren't. PCars greatest critics are probably people who were once part of WMD but now aren't. People who are part of WMD have significant emotional capital and effort tied up in the game and often want to defend it to the hilt.

That's not to say WMD is "wrong", or has done a bad job in any way. I like the idea of WMD and have been very interested in seeing how SMS have harnessed the community to enhance the game. WMD brings many things to the table and IMO is a huge overall benefit to SMS. But that doesn't mean everything about WMD is good, and that the use of WMD isn't going to have some negative consequences.

Where you create cliques,gangs you are making a situation divisive. And divisive situations are almost always going to lead to enhanced hate. That's human nature.

DragonSyr
09-01-2016, 12:45
.......at my statistics as the game can't add together the races won, and the races where I placed 2nd, 3rd, etc... (after all 10+25+99 = 134)
225106


wrong...the 10 1st places is included in podiums .so, after all 25+99=124

Liquid7394
09-01-2016, 13:24
I see far more criticism than hate on this forum. Why are you upset at what people say on other forums?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-01-2016, 13:29
My experiences and recollections are that AC was available for purchase on Steam for a far longer period of time than PCARS. I remember PCARS being closed for beta testing purchase leading up to game release whereas AC was readily available for purchase at any time.It was available for longer on Steam due to being a Steam Early Access game and being released earlier. They announced it in Dec 2011, released the Technology Preview in Feb 2013, put the game on Steam Early Access in Nov 2013 and finally got the release candidate out in Oct 2014 with the "final" version coming out in Dec. So you had one tech demo available between Feb-Nov 2013, then Early Access versions from then on until release, so a bit under two years before release, 10 months of that with a single tech demo build, on Steam for about a year before release.

However with pCARS anyone could join the party starting from October 2011 and keep on playing all the way through to release and beyond. You couldn't get the game from Steam, true, but it was just as open as AC's Early Access, you had to pay to get into both. Admittedly though unlike with AC there was a gap before release where you couldn't buy into the project anymore because the FCA freaked out a bit, but still, anyone could get into testing pCARS for years, and starting over two years before the first tech demo of AC came out. =)

Dorny
09-01-2016, 13:45
While there are problems with Pcars (there is), there has been a good sized portion of people that are just against Pcars full stop and will even go out their way to put it down and this started from the initial conception of Pcars. Normal people when they dint like something just don't purchase it or leave it alone, but not these guys.

Its fanboys of other racing/sim games. Fanboys have always been a problem in the gaming or console community as they aren't just fans but almost like football thugs and will attack and put down anyone that likes anything that isn't the game they have.

I used to put it down as due to the younger age of the gaming community. There will always be Playstation Vs Xbox, COD vs BF or FORZA VS GT etc. There is this childish mentality that one should rule them all, when in reality there is room for competition.

But the sad thing is, the fanboys in sim racing community are a whole lot more vicious,stubborn and proactive. The other sad thing is, like I said before gaming fanboys are generally younger, 21 years old or below so there is the element of childishness.

But Sim racing is more adult in general which will have an older age base, which makes it depressing that fully grown adults are doing this pointless childish behaviour. And whats worse the adults are behaving worse than the children when it comes to this. As the comments,attitudes and actions between sim communities makes COD VS BF or PS VS Xbox look like friendly kid banter.

These grown ups need to to get a life and stop being so damn childish. Its a game, you should be happy that there are fellow people with the same interest in this niche genre of games.

Bkim
09-01-2016, 13:59
I think that the main difference between console and PC players is that PC players are more focused on long races with pit stops, flag systems and a solid AI. The Console player is more focused on having fun for a couple of laps, not thinking about pitstops or flag systems or solid AI. When i race against AI in rFactor 2, Formula Truck, Game Stock Car (3 hour races) or Raceroom experience, i have close races. Bumper to bumper with some paint rubbing but i manage to keep it clean all the time. In Pcars however a overtake manoeuvre always ends up in the grass or barrier, because the AI brakes amazingly late and is still capable of holding the raceline, of they just cut the corner to keep advantage. That kind of behaviour i do not see in the other games.
The people that expected Pcars to be the ultimate racesim are disappointed as AI / pitstops and flag system are flawed in such manner that endurance races are not possible. I love Pcars doing practice without AI, then it is a beautiful strong game. But as soon pitstops / AI comes into play, i quit and hop over to another sim.

DreamsKnight
09-01-2016, 14:01
Crossplatform titles introduce in the receipt consoles users that are in large part childish and mindless people able only to to consoles wars games wars and my dick is longer than yours wars. Obviously not all the consoles users are in this way, but the consoles logic (all ready, press a button, everything is OK) attract those kind of people.

Price logic is idiot. If you pay 50 fo assasins creed (i love it) and its 15 hours of game, i think a game as Pcars able to give you 500/1000/3000 hours of gaming worth the money. A crap film at the cinema costs a lot more.

Behind a keyboard everyone is a lion.

Idiots are... Idiots.

About the feeling of driving we can speak a lot but nobody knows a Ferrari pagani gt3 etc. Well, I'm Italian: giulietta and 500 are common cars for daily use. I drove them. They are perfectly able to turn at 50km/h in a tight corner in the morning at 0C after 50m of road. The abarth and the quadrifoglio are better. In assetto corsa I tried those two cars, I had only stupid understeer , I click uninstall.

Now I'm here after months. There are some bugs, some stupid menu and poor functionality. But Pcars is perfectly able to give me the feel of driving a race car, its main purpose.

EliteK29
09-01-2016, 14:16
The hate for this game is pretty ridiculous tbh. It's so bad that people are saying gran turismo 6 is better lol. So you telling me that GT6 has better AI, Career Mode, Damage, Physics, sound and etc... The only thing GT6 beats pcars in is online and car count. Not to mention that every car in pcars is high quality unlike GT6. Yes! The game is far from perfect and has a few issues but the game is a blast. Yea SMS has made some mistakes and odd decisions but you can't sit here and say that the game is bad because of that. I'm subscribe to motogames on YouTube (he shows off all types of racing games) and out of all the games that he shows off Pcars gets the most hate in the comments section.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-01-2016, 14:53
About the feeling of driving we can speak a lot but nobody knows a Ferrari pagani gt3 etc. Well, I'm Italian: giulietta and 500 are common cars for daily use. I drove them. They are perfectly able to turn at 50km/h in a tight corner in the morning at 0C after 50m of road. The abarth and the quadrifoglio are better. In assetto corsa I tried those two cars, I had only stupid understeer , I click uninstall.Some tyres in AC are pretty awful, but to be honest that is a problem we ran into many a time during pCARS's development as well, how there's a discrepancy between how far the car is being pushed and how much it feels like you're pushing it.

As an example during development one user complained that the Megane 265 wobbled insanely much sideways even when driving on a road normally, and that his normal road car was better. I'd personally measured the lean and found it to be exactly as much as Renault claimed the car would lean in that situation, so I was a bit skeptical. We went online and I followed him, trying to match his line and speed. Turned out he was pulling 1.2 Gs a lot of the time, which his road car wouldn't be able to hit even with the best tyres on the market, and would almost fall over if the suspension wasn't lowered. Once I made us slow down to realistic speeds and taking the corners so that the G forces were kept to within acceptable real life road use limits the car barely leaned at all and he realized how far off his perception had been.

This plagued the development of road cars very badly. Almost everyone thought that they couldn't turn hard enough in "normal driving situations", when in reality they were trying to pull figures that only about 1% of the cars in the world can ever hope to achieve. The world's best road cars on the best tyres availabled can momentarily peak at 1.5 Gs and hold steady at around 1.2-1.3 Gs, which feels very low when people tend to be used to racing cars capable of over 2 Gs in games, and even more so when the road cars can often go so much faster in a straight line than the rest of the car can cope with (another issue was people trying to enter corners at least 30-50 km/h faster than real life drivers on hot laps in similar cars).

So yeah, there's definitely a big issue in sim development with road cars and vintage cars. Once the grip level drops below a certain level, the perceived level of grip drops suddenly even when it's still a huge amount of grip from a real life perspective. 1.2 Gs can make people feel like there's hardly any grip, 1 G seems very slippery already (even though the majority of normal modern tyres can barely get there even during braking), and realistic 60s and 70s road tyres would be barely capable of 0.6-0.7 Gs in corners. How to make the cars feels like they aren't completely struggling for grip while matching realistic levels...

Of course it's not all about the amount of grip, a huge part of the whole is how the grip behaves, how sharp the tyres respond, how quickly they give up after the limit, etc. Niels Heusinkveld (physics dev for Reiza) had a knack for making rFactor road tyres in the 1.0 G or even below range that felt as grippy and drivable as 1.6 G tyres from most other modders. =)

BSDShoes
09-01-2016, 15:13
I'm the type of guy that buys just about every racing game available, with mention of rF2 here- I thought that game was incredibly incomplete and still is and a step backwards from rF1 (still play rF1 more than rF2), AC is a great game and seems shallow, pCARS is a surprise but it was made by some of the people that did Need For Speed Shift right? Sot here's some previous experience there.

For now my time is split between DiRT Rally, pCARS (PC) and Forza 6 at the time being, I traded away my PS4 version of pCARS, not even sure if I'm going to even bother with Gran Turismo 7 (mostly because I don't want the hassle of getting yet another wheel for a separate platform, unless I can get a CronusMAX and use a PC/XB1 wheel that works with it for PS4).

brownninja97
09-01-2016, 15:14
Some tyres in AC are pretty awful, but to be honest that is a problem we ran into many a time during pCARS's development as well, how there's a discrepancy between how far the car is being pushed and how much it feels like you're pushing it.

As an example during development one user complained that the Megane 265 wobbled insanely much sideways even when driving on a road normally, and that his normal road car was better. I'd personally measured the lean and found it to be exactly as much as Renault claimed the car would lean in that situation, so I was a bit skeptical. We went online and I followed him, trying to match his line and speed. Turned out he was pulling 1.2 Gs a lot of the time, which his road car wouldn't be able to hit even with the best tyres on the market, and would almost fall over if the suspension wasn't lowered. Once I made us slow down to realistic speeds and taking the corners so that the G forces were kept to within acceptable real life road use limits the car barely leaned at all and he realized how far off his perception had been.

This plagued the development of road cars very badly. Almost everyone thought that they couldn't turn hard enough in "normal driving situations", when in reality they were trying to pull figures that only about 1% of the cars in the world can ever hope to achieve. The world's best road cars on the best tyres availabled can momentarily peak at 1.5 Gs and hold steady at around 1.2-1.3 Gs, which feels very low when people tend to be used to racing cars capable of over 2 Gs in games, and even more so when the road cars can often go so much faster in a straight line than the rest of the car can cope with (another issue was people trying to enter corners at least 30-50 km/h faster than real life drivers on hot laps in similar cars).

So yeah, there's definitely a big issue in sim development with road cars and vintage cars. Once the grip level drops below a certain level, the perceived level of grip drops suddenly even when it's still a huge amount of grip from a real life perspective. 1.2 Gs can make people feel like there's hardly any grip, 1 G seems very slippery already (even though the majority of normal modern tyres can barely get there even during braking), and realistic 60s and 70s road tyres would be barely capable of 0.6-0.7 Gs in corners. How to make the cars feels like they aren't completely struggling for grip while matching realistic levels...

Of course it's not all about the amount of grip, a huge part of the whole is how the grip behaves, how sharp the tyres respond, how quickly they give up after the limit, etc. Niels Heusinkveld (physics dev for Reiza) had a knack for making rFactor road tyres in the 1.0 G or even below range that felt as grippy and drivable as 1.6 G tyres from most other modders. =)
At this point i just pick a sim depending on what type of racing im in the mood for, if i want to mess around on an AG racer then i hope on formula fusion, if i want to tinker with Gt3 cars i head over to Assetto corsa, if i want F1 then i open up GSCE, if i want lmps then Pcars, karts for rf2 etc etc. I spend the most time in AC because of modding but i dont have a best sim currently, too much hoping around various sims. In one sim i love a car while in another one it comes close to instant uninstall material

Haiden
09-01-2016, 15:45
Why all the hate?


You do realize this is the Internet, right? :)

Also, I think we've overlooked one (and probably the worst) category of hater. The lonely troll types that really, in truth, don't care one way or the other. They just like to antagonize people, because they can't stand to see others enjoying something. There are a lot of those lurking around, waiting to jump into any thread whose title hints of gratitude or appreciation. In the words of Alfred, "Some men just want to watch the world burn." :)

maxpainpayne
09-01-2016, 15:46
The hate for this game is pretty ridiculous tbh. It's so bad that people are saying gran turismo 6 is better lol. So you telling me that GT6 has better AI, Career Mode, Damage, Physics, sound and etc... The only thing GT6 beats pcars in is online and car count. Not to mention that every car in pcars is high quality unlike GT6. Yes! The game is far from perfect and has a few issues but the game is a blast. Yea SMS has made some mistakes and odd decisions but you can't sit here and say that the game is bad because of that. I'm subscribe to motogames on YouTube (he shows off all types of racing games) and out of all the games that he shows off Pcars gets the most hate in the comments section.

Honestly, I don't think people hate the game, This is provoked hate. when you take GT or Forza for an example two franchises that spent many years of changes to satisfy their fan base in every way possible. Then you have people here putting pcars on a pedestal above forza and gt. This makes absolutely no sense to the haters, sure this game has things differently involved but it has not yet perfected quality the way forza and gt has on consoles. This process takes time and listening to both fans and haters to form the perfect game.

"pcars is like a newborn baby that is already trying to jump in front of the mature forza and gt." how cute.

on one hand, you have people from WMD who paid to have an impact on pcars (all members on a linear mindset) ones that don't agree with the whole group eventually cancels membership. On the other hand you have the haters that are so tired of this linear mindset that has been established for pcars, it is pretty apparent that project cars has a strict fan base because of WMD members who paid for impact. The objective is to bash the game on other websites because they know by now valid complaints sent here in this forum will get the locked thread treatment.


wmd: noone is asking you to welcome rude people; but stop kicking, banning, double teaming and hating the "Haters" in this forum, instead try to understand a different point-of-view this can only help the future.

it is sad to hear "why the hate", while i don't hate but I can see obvious reasons why some do. nobody wants to see their favorite game bashed all over the internet with such negativity, at the same time nobody wants to be extremely disappointed by a game purchase and then after complaining, told to **** off. we seem to forget that we should want 100% satisfied customers, not just the ones that buy a wmd membership. if the initial complaints would have been taken in consideration, would they be spreading all over the internet? not imo.

blk95cars
09-01-2016, 16:06
Ya i think this true how guys have preferences to different games but at the same time its 2016. Its not rfactor days or iracing only pc. Pcars should be a great improvement but it seems either developers are greety to say f.. this we wanna keep the profts or sh. It we didnt make enough to fix all these bugs. Its not just online bugs its solo play bugs. I be honest i dont like to complain it has great potential. They are scrounging funds now to make pcar2 and anounce it is pretty sad when i still feel the games incomplete. I bet the guys working for sms are saying the same thing but have to listen to the boss and say f. This just spend little time on it cause we dont wanna spend anymore money on this game.

Sasquatch
09-01-2016, 16:42
It's so bad that people are saying gran turismo 6 is better lol. So you telling me that GT6 has better AI, Career Mode, Damage, Physics, sound and etc...
To be very honest, GT6 is a magical game considering what it does with very very very little ram and old hardware.

But because majority of those who play GT & Forza play the game because it's pretty, they can make a absurd power numbered car - and make it pretty so it embodies their ego, and they can pass the catch-the-rabbit AI to get in first as quickly as possible.

bmanic
09-01-2016, 17:00
bah.. never mind. Wont get into this.

My theory: Simulation genres (flight, military, racing, sailing, whatever..) probably has the highest amount of psychopaths/sociopaths of any gaming community. Not sure why this is but it'd be interesting to see some kind of statistics on this. They just seem to revel in these genres. In the more mainstream gaming genres they become such a large minority that their frantic lunatic voices get quickly drowned out by ordinary weirdos. In these niche genres they suddenly get heard and even get a large following sometimes. Hence the abysmal toxicity of simulation genres in general.

You can find a few of these people on RD and in the comments section of virtualr.net. It makes for interesting case studies to look through their post history. :)

David Wright
09-01-2016, 17:20
...pCARS is a surprise but it was made by some of the people that did Need For Speed Shift right? Sot here's some previous experience there.


Many of the team also worked on GTR, GT Legends and GTR2 so there is indeed some previous experience.

Gobymage
09-01-2016, 17:21
I can give you the right explanation about the question.

The main reason is that the default FFB is not good. So, if you can not understand english and you can not visit this forum to understand how to set the FFB, you are so disapointed about the game.

In a communauty of simracers in France, I suggested my FFB setup and the reaction of simracers who have bought the game was very surprising.

A lot of people have stopped to play the game due to the bad FFB. After using my setup, a lot of them started to love Project Cars.

In France, I think this is the main reason.

poirqc
09-01-2016, 17:22
I Like apple pie, sugar pie and lemon pie. But the best is Poutine (http://www.mapoutine.ca/poutines/resto-king-sainte-marie-poutine-moyenne.php)!

RaceNut
09-01-2016, 17:24
It's way too easy to dismiss people as being "Fanboys". It doesn't address the underlying causes or recognize the passion and reasons behind why people react to some titles. If you don't like to read my rambling on - it's best to stop reading right here.:p

Yes, many in the Sim-racing community hoped that Pcars would have everything they hoped for but, show me one title that does everything well and has tons of content at reasonable cost - it just doesn't exist. Much of the negativity towards Project cars stems from deep within the hard-core Sim-Racing community; not because it's a bad community at all, it's just has some deep-rooted resentment issues and suffers many of the same social issues that many minorities do.

The hard-core Sim-racing community is perhaps, one of the most passionate groups in PC gaming circles along with the hard-core flight-sim community. Just take a close look at the hardware list and you can generally see that they have to be either passionate or just crazy rich. :D The truly hard-core tend to demand absolute no-compromise accurate physics (or at least as close as possible). Meeting such demands means making some compromises in other areas; quite often, that means lesser graphics, less content, etc. This leaves the Hard-core left wanting more of those things while maintaining a very high level of physics accuracy at the core; something no title to date has been able to achieve.

With iRacing and rFactor2 being among the most hardcore Racing titles publically available today, the compromises made are clear in either case. iRacing is in the process of updating it's graphics engine to better align with today's standards but, of course, the high cost of admission keeps that title firmly in the "elite" Sim-racing group. rFactor2 is considered by many in the community to provide the best racing physics engine created to date but, the graphics really let it down when compared to today's standards.

Some of us may fit into something of a "Crossover" sim-racing group, those that can enjoy various titles of Racing games/Sims and enjoy different aspects of each one. Being that there is not a single Sim-racing title in existence that can check off every box on the wishlist may require us to split our play-time among numerous racing titles.

As one evolves in Sim-racing and acquires better and more accurate hardware and more experience, the differences in Physics begin to become more pronounced or obvious. Of course, some of this is purely subjective and based on feeling but, there are other cues that tip us off in regard to physics accuracy and a titles tendency to produce results closer to real-world driving behavior. Without getting caught up in those details, Pcars clearly has some very good physics at work but, there are some areas that also fail to impress anyone falling into the hard-core group. Assetto Corsa is a bit better in some areas IMO but, it has some amazing cars and a few other things to make it something special - at least in my mind.

From purely the driving experience perspective: I prefer AC over Pcars, iRacing or rF2 over AC but, I won't constantly maintain the iRacing subscription - only taking advantage of special offers occasionally. Those titles just feel more like I'm driving a race car - period. That doesn't mean that I can't adapt to a different title's physics and appreciate them; it just means that one appeals more to the serious "Sim-Racer" in me than another on any given day.

So, getting back to the Hard-core Sim-racing community; many within the community feel threatened by anything that strays from the formula that - first and foremost - contains accurate physics. Without that, there's no point to playing in the first place. It's not enough to have accuracy for tires, surfaces, aero, temp, etc., the off-track behavior has to be realistic too and that is an area that so many take issue with in Pcars. Crash physics and AI are also areas that are often pointed out as being beyond acceptable but, I find the AI to be decent enough in most cases.

Grip levels are another big area of contention between titles but, here is where things get even more complex; Hardware. The hardware being used (primarily the steering system) plays a huge role in how we perceive grip levels in Racing-sims. When I used a G25, titles like iRacing and rFactor2 seemed ridiculously hard to control as if on ice. With my current wheel, iRacing and rF2 feel like they have massive amounts of grip - yes, I know some of the "Ice-driving" tendencies in those titles have been improved upon in recent times but, the difference is still huge. Increases in a wheels dynamic range are like using a magnifier to look at a tiny object, it improves our ability to see (Feel) what's going on to a much higher degree. It's almost like having a physics amplifier in hand and leaves you thinking, "how can the grip be considered low by so many people with this much self-aligning-torque?"

Now, those cases aside (High-end hardware), it's easy to get caught up in the "my sim is better than yours" discussions but, it happens all the time. Of course, with all things human, there's much more involved than just that. It may include social and/or political or other elements too complex for my little brain but, the angst coming from the Hard-core community, a small minority feeling threatened by changes in the gaming industry, drive a wedge between various racing-gamer types. The hard-core titles are few and far in-between and the market being so small makes it unlikely that the really capable studio's will invest in future seriously hard-core physics based titles ultimately providing one title to serve as the "Holy Grail" of Racing-sims for all to be enjoyed together. Anything that doesn't serve that purpose is viewed as a threat to reaching that goal (IMO).

The ensuing conflict that results among racing-title fans stems from passion and frustration; that of not being able to have the level of desired realism (what is enough?) combined with great graphics, sound, features, game-play and content. Some are so frustrated that they lash out in bitterness and contempt at the mere suggestion of someone enjoying other titles, not realizing that most of us are on a journey, evolving as racers, gamers, people, fans, enthusiasts, etc. Our place on that path varies and our destinations may differ completely but, that's no reason to behave badly. A bit of understanding from all sides is what's needed and that tends to be easier when we've walked a mile in others shoes. :)

That's my perspective on the divide between racing-title fans and if we compare that to other things going on in the world, there are a lot of parallels out there.

poirqc
09-01-2016, 17:28
I can give you the right explanation about the question.

The main reason is that the default FFB is not good. So, if you can not understand english and you can not visit this forum to understand how to set the FFB, you are so disapointed about the game.

In a communauty of simracers in France, I suggested my FFB setup and the reaction of simracers who have bought the game was very surprising.

A lot of people have stopped to play the game due to the bad FFB. After using my setup, a lot of them started to love Project Cars.

In France, I think this is the main reason.

I have to agree with you on this one. Imho, the Default template has way to much Steering Gain(3 to 5) by itself. It's even officially written that it leads to clipping:

Steering Gain – the gain (multiplier) applied to all steering effects (steering force, jolts, kerb rumble etc) after they have been mixed. For a clean more detailed experience set at 1.0 or below, for stronger feedback at the expense of clipping set higher (maximum value 5).

One feature pCars give is to tune the FFB to taste. It can be fantastic, put it's pretty hard to do from the get go.

blk95cars
09-01-2016, 18:20
It's way too easy to dismiss people as being "Fanboys". It doesn't address the underlying causes or recognize the passion and reasons behind why people react to some titles. If you don't like to read my rambling on - it's best to stop reading right here.:p

Yes, many in the Sim-racing community hoped that Pcars would have everything they hoped for but, show me one title that does everything well and has tons of content at reasonable cost - it just doesn't exist. Much of the negativity towards Project cars stems from deep within the hard-core Sim-Racing community; not because it's a bad community at all, it's just has some deep-rooted resentment issues and suffers many of the same social issues that many minorities do.

The hard-core Sim-racing community is perhaps, one of the most passionate groups in PC gaming circles along with the hard-core flight-sim community. Just take a close look at the hardware list and you can generally see that they have to be either passionate or just crazy rich. :D The truly hard-core tend to demand absolute no-compromise accurate physics (or at least as close as possible). Meeting such demands means making some compromises in other areas; quite often, that means lesser graphics, less content, etc. This leaves the Hard-core left wanting more of those things while maintaining a very high level of physics accuracy at the core; something no title to date has been able to achieve.

With iRacing and rFactor2 being among the most hardcore Racing titles publically available today, the compromises made are clear in either case. iRacing is in the process of updating it's graphics engine to better align with today's standards but, of course, the high cost of admission keeps that title firmly in the "elite" Sim-racing group. rFactor2 is considered by many in the community to provide the best racing physics engine created to date but, the graphics really let it down when compared to today's standards.

Some of us may fit into something of a "Crossover" sim-racing group, those that can enjoy various titles of Racing games/Sims and enjoy different aspects of each one. Being that there is not a single Sim-racing title in existence that can check off every box on the wishlist may require us to split our play-time among numerous racing titles.

As one evolves in Sim-racing and acquires better and more accurate hardware and more experience, the differences in Physics begin to become more pronounced or obvious. Of course, some of this is purely subjective and based on feeling but, there are other cues that tip us off in regard to physics accuracy and a titles tendency to produce results closer to real-world driving behavior. Without getting caught up in those details, Pcars clearly has some very good physics at work but, there are some areas that also fail to impress anyone falling into the hard-core group. Assetto Corsa is a bit better in some areas IMO but, it has some amazing cars and a few other things to make it something special - at least in my mind.

From purely the driving experience perspective: I prefer AC over Pcars, iRacing or rF2 over AC but, I won't constantly maintain the iRacing subscription - only taking advantage of special offers occasionally. Those titles just feel more like I'm driving a race car - period. That doesn't mean that I can't adapt to a different title's physics and appreciate them; it just means that one appeals more to the serious "Sim-Racer" in me than another on any given day.

So, getting back to the Hard-core Sim-racing community; many within the community feel threatened by anything that strays from the formula that - first and foremost - contains accurate physics. Without that, there's no point to playing in the first place. It's not enough to have accuracy for tires, surfaces, aero, temp, etc., the off-track behavior has to be realistic too and that is an area that so many take issue with in Pcars. Crash physics and AI are also areas that are often pointed out as being beyond acceptable but, I find the AI to be decent enough in most cases.

Grip levels are another big area of contention between titles but, here is where things get even more complex; Hardware. The hardware being used (primarily the steering system) plays a huge role in how we perceive grip levels in Racing-sims. When I used a G25, titles like iRacing and rFactor2 seemed ridiculously hard to control as if on ice. With my current wheel, iRacing and rF2 feel like they have massive amounts of grip - yes, I know some of the "Ice-driving" tendencies in those titles have been improved upon in recent times but, the difference is still huge. Increases in a wheels dynamic range are like using a magnifier to look at a tiny object, it improves our ability to see (Feel) what's going on to a much higher degree. It's almost like having a physics amplifier in hand and leaves you thinking, "how can the grip be considered low by so many people with this much self-aligning-torque?"

Now, those cases aside (High-end hardware), it's easy to get caught up in the "my sim is better than yours" discussions but, it happens all the time. Of course, with all things human, there's much more involved than just that. It may include social and/or political or other elements too complex for my little brain but, the angst coming from the Hard-core community, a small minority feeling threatened by changes in the gaming industry, drive a wedge between various racing-gamer types. The hard-core titles are few and far in-between and the market being so small makes it unlikely that the really capable studio's will invest in future seriously hard-core physics based titles ultimately providing one title to serve as the "Holy Grail" of Racing-sims for all to be enjoyed together. Anything that doesn't serve that purpose is viewed as a threat to reaching that goal (IMO).

The ensuing conflict that results among racing-title fans stems from passion and frustration; that of not being able to have the level of desired realism (what is enough?) combined with great graphics, sound, features, game-play and content. Some are so frustrated that they lash out in bitterness and contempt at the mere suggestion of someone enjoying other titles, not realizing that most of us are on a journey, evolving as racers, gamers, people, fans, enthusiasts, etc. Our place on that path varies and our destinations may differ completely but, that's no reason to behave badly. A bit of understanding from all sides is what's needed and that tends to be easier when we've walked a mile in others shoes. :)

That's my perspective on the divide between racing-title fans and if we compare that to other things going on in the world, there are a lot of parallels out there.

I think you should write the manual for project cars lol

CHEN255
09-01-2016, 18:56
@maxpainpayne - I don't see that non progression in PCars is a negative. IMO it is a very gamey feature and caters mainly but not entirely to the addiction type feature of constantly feeding the player with rewards to keep them interested. For many players who want progression, once they have reached the highest level/reward, the game holds no further interest and they are off to play the next title where they can start at the lowest level again. This may be why so many sim racers dislike consoles (calling us kiddies etc) because it is something which a lot of console racers want.
For me, I don't want this in PCars, it's a title I can literally keep playing over and over rather than progress, beat and then move on. In other words the joy is in the interaction with the game as it is, not the progression and beating of it.

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 19:04
IMO the vocal hardcore sim racing community isn't "passionate", but closed-minded ;) It also consists of many people who use the word "physics" in every other sentence but often clearly demonstrate that they have no or very little clue about (car racing) physics.

IMO the type of vocal hard-core sim racers that populate certain forums are people who are really good at playing car racing games that portray race car physics that are more difficult than in real life. The fact that this community originated from titles like GPL and mainly plays games like iRacing that demonstrably have/had tyre models that are very bad at accurately simulating tyre behavior when going over the limit tells a lot.

Hardcore sim racers like a challenge and hence like race sims that are more difficult than real life, but they confuse "challenge" with "realism".

It's good though that there are hardcore sim racers that actually recognized this and that are not afraid to say they like certain games better because of the challenge, without playing the realism card :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-01-2016, 19:15
IMO the type of vocal hard-core sim racers that populate certain forums are people who are really good at playing car racing games that portray race car physics that are more difficult than in real life. The fact that this community originated from titles like GPL and mainly plays games like iRacing that demonstrably have/had tyre models that are very bad at accurately simulating tyre behavior when going over the limit tells a lot.That crowd gave the world my favorite argument I've ever seen used in sim discussions: That real life racing drivers are not capable of determining whether or not sims are realistic, you need a very good sim racer to determine whether a sim is realistic or not. =)

Sankyo
09-01-2016, 20:12
That crowd gave the world my favorite argument I've ever seen used in sim discussions: That real life racing drivers are not capable of determining whether or not sims are realistic, you need a very good sim racer to determine whether a sim is realistic or not. =)
Well, an omelette lover is better capable of juding an omelette than a chicken... :p

Ezuna
09-01-2016, 20:42
Could someone define the term 'fanboy' for me? I'm a fan of pCars bigtime. But I also like other sims and appreciate them all for the things they are weak and strong in.

In terms of overall enjoyment if forced to make a choice I'd pick pCars over everything else.

Does that make me a fanboy or a passionate fan?

I'm assuming fanboy is meant to mean 'someone so devoted to a game they are blinded to the merits of everything else'?

Thanks :)

maxpainpayne
09-01-2016, 20:51
Could someone define the term 'fanboy' for me? I'm a fan of pCars bigtime. But I also like other sims and appreciate them all for the things they are weak and strong in.

In terms of overall enjoyment if forced to make a choice I'd pick pCars over everything else.

Does that make me a fanboy or a passionate fan?

I'm assuming fanboy is meant to mean 'someone so devoted to a game they are blinded to the merits of everything else'?

Thanks :)

you (passionate fan) are someone who enjoys a game for their personal gain. A fanboy enjoys making everyone else enjoy the game for their personal gain.

so "NO" you are not a fanboy until you start trying to manipulate other gamer's interest IMO

Ezuna
09-01-2016, 21:00
you (passionate fan) are someone who enjoys a game for their personal gain. A fanboy enjoys making everyone else enjoy the game for their personal gain.

so "NO" you are not a fanboy until you start trying to manipulate other gamer's interest IMO

Life was simpler before the internet.....!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-01-2016, 21:12
In my mind the term "fanboy" tends to stand for some one who bashes every alternative to their favorite game, and most often without any real, factual reasons. For example some (and I do mean only some) iRacing fanboys that instantly discredited pCARS when the project started, automatically saying that it is and always will be worthless rubbish and nothing can ever change their mind because it was being done by SMS.

So something irrational like saying that pCARS sucks because it's made for consoles or because it's just Shift 3 etc. could hint towards someone being a fanboy. On the other hand someone who simply doesn't like a particular game because of a valid reason (like not liking pCARS because you can't really do effective multiclass racing without a huge amount of organizing beforehand, or not liking AC because of the various limitations with time of day and weather etc., or not liking iRacing due to the pricing and total lack of single player, etc.) is just a normal, valid opinion.

Liquid7394
09-01-2016, 21:17
Could someone define the term 'fanboy' for me? I'm a fan of pCars bigtime. But I also like other sims and appreciate them all for the things they are weak and strong in.

In terms of overall enjoyment if forced to make a choice I'd pick pCars over everything else.

Does that make me a fanboy or a passionate fan?

I'm assuming fanboy is meant to mean 'someone so devoted to a game they are blinded to the merits of everything else'?

Thanks :)
You're kinda right in your assumption. A fanboy/fangirl is basically someone who is so blinded by they're loyalty to a product, service, person etc. that they will dismiss and valid criticism and will not acknowledge the merits of rivals. They will go to extreme lengths to defend or promote whatever they worship including lying and insulting people. Simply enjoying Pcars over other sims doesn't make you a fanboy.

A recent example I can think of is after the Paris attacks, it was falsely reported that the terrorists used a PS4 to communicate. An Xbox fanboy made a video and claimed that if you own a PS4 you support ISIS.

RaceNut
09-01-2016, 22:01
IMO the vocal hardcore sim racing community isn't "passionate", but closed-minded ;) It also consists of many people who use the word "physics" in every other sentence but often clearly demonstrate that they have no or very little clue about (car racing) physics.

IMO the type of vocal hard-core sim racers that populate certain forums are people who are really good at playing car racing games that portray race car physics that are more difficult than in real life. The fact that this community originated from titles like GPL and mainly plays games like iRacing that demonstrably have/had tyre models that are very bad at accurately simulating tyre behavior when going over the limit tells a lot.

Hardcore sim racers like a challenge and hence like race sims that are more difficult than real life, but they confuse "challenge" with "realism".

It's good though that there are hardcore sim racers that actually recognized this and that are not afraid to say they like certain games better because of the challenge, without playing the realism card :)

You make good points and I do think that many in the Hard-core crowd have become jaded through over-use of marketing terms and buzz-words commonly used to sell racing titles. They aren't wrong in that regard either but, some of them are just grumpy old men. :)

I want a challenge from Racing-sims but that doesn't just mean setting a fast time. I want it to be immersive and that means having physics that are "believable", not necessarily 100% accurate or realistic. At the same time, I want there to be a nuance in the driving dynamics, a bit like walking a tight rope with challenges that require just the right amount of correction. When pushing hard, there should be plenty of moments where you know you are on the edge but, if you step over that edge, you still have a small margin to make corrections.

I also think some of us are better able or more willing to adapt to different driving characteristics in various sims and adjust our expectations and acceptance of those characteristics. Anyone that believes that they can judge sim-physics within an hour or two are missing out IMO. Spend a couple of weeks or more focusing on one title, maybe even a month or two; then you have a feeling for the physics. Then, when you move onto another Sim, you are in a better position to compare those titles.

DECATUR PLAYA
10-01-2016, 00:38
You're kinda right in your assumption. A fanboy/fangirl is basically someone who is so blinded by they're loyalty to a product, service, person etc. that they will dismiss and valid criticism and will not acknowledge the merits of rivals. They will go to extreme lengths to defend or promote whatever they worship including lying and insulting people. Simply enjoying Pcars over other sims doesn't make you a fanboy.

A recent example I can think of is after the Paris attacks, it was falsely reported that the terrorists used a PS4 to communicate. An Xbox fanboy made a video and claimed that if you own a PS4 you support ISIS.

That's not a fanboy that's a NUT.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-01-2016, 02:31
That's not a fanboy that's a NUT.The term "fanboy" tends to refer to people who are a bit nuts. =)

poirqc
10-01-2016, 03:25
You're kinda right in your assumption. A fanboy/fangirl is basically someone who is so blinded by they're loyalty to a product, service, person etc. that they will dismiss and valid criticism and will not acknowledge the merits of rivals. They will go to extreme lengths to defend or promote whatever they worship including lying and insulting people. Simply enjoying Pcars over other sims doesn't make you a fanboy.

A recent example I can think of is after the Paris attacks, it was falsely reported that the terrorists used a PS4 to communicate. An Xbox fanboy made a video and claimed that if you own a PS4 you support ISIS.

I always found it funny( or sad, i don't know) when someone use the most extreme example to show it's point. Like there was absolutely nothing else that could fit a given case. Nothing is all black and white in this world!

Human_bean
10-01-2016, 04:31
The game had it's issues since launch but it is still the best car game on ps4 right now hands down.

Liquid7394
10-01-2016, 04:37
I always found it funny( or sad, i don't know) when someone use the most extreme example to show it's point. Like there was absolutely nothing else that could fit a given case. Nothing is all black and white in this world!
Believe it or not but that isn't the most extreme case. I've seen people threaten physical violence over what piece of plastic you play on, and releasing addresses of people they don't like. Fanboys aren't mentally stable, simple as that really. I used that example because it was the most recent example that came to mind. Is that a problem for you?

poirqc
10-01-2016, 05:57
Believe it or not but that isn't the most extreme case. I've seen people threaten physical violence over what piece of plastic you play on, and releasing addresses of people they don't like. Fanboys aren't mentally stable, simple as that really. I used that example because it was the most recent example that came to mind. Is that a problem for you?

Not at all, you only gave an example.

I was talking about the guys doing the video about consoles and ISIS support.

Liquid7394
10-01-2016, 06:01
I see. I misunderstood then, apologies.

Fernandito
10-01-2016, 07:18
Haters gonna hate.lovers gonna love

IJOJOI
10-01-2016, 11:11
I'll quote myself here (my reddit post about this...)


Hi guys :D So this is my first post here...
this should be a little reminder of what our hobby is why we love it... or something like that ;)
My Hardware: CSWv2/T500, Selfmade pedals, Fanatec SQ shifter, selfmade alu-frame, buttkickers. (currently building myself a wheel)
As the title suggests, I am very upset with the way the simracing community is currently going, I mean WHAT THE HELL?! I am in Simracing since F1 99 and had the chance to watch the simracing genre growing and bringing out new diamonds.
We can consider ourselfs as very (!) lucky to have so many new and good looking sims now. I play basically all of them, and I love them all. LFS (yes still :)), rf1, rf2, gtr1/2, ntc, gsce, AC, iRacing, pCars....
I probably played the most of rf2 and iRacing, because well they are nice :D, and i like clean racing. But recently I saw a lot of hate, not only here, but anywhere regarding SimRacing.
My experience is, that iRacing and rf2 fans hate against everything, while AC fans hate basically about pCars only, well all hate against pCars :D
But my question is WHY?!
I consider this community to be a lot older (average) than for example the BF/CoD community, most of us are adults, or quite grown up. But there is really no acceptance at all out there, if it comes to other Sims.
I think we should be glad to be able to enjoy so many different sims and not be limited to just one!!
Furthermore I am quite confused by the hate towards pCars.... I am in the community since 2011 and I wasn't always on par with what they did physicswise, but it got really good recently. Good enough to compete with AC etc. Most people haven't played it and are hating...
That wasn't the case a few year ago... Be happy to get new games... Nobody forces you to buy it.
As far as I can see every developer has a different approach to "REALISTIC", because it's down to the individual player.
What is REAL for me hasn't to be real for you.
ALL (!!!) sims have their problems. They are weaker in one and stronger in the other area. I for myself are not satisfied with AC's praised FFB, but still I enjoy the game.

OPEN your EYES!!! Stay true to your hobby, and enjoy the variety of opportunities nowadays!
Looking forward to read your opinion on that...
BEST REGARDS IJOJOI

Furma
10-01-2016, 11:29
so ITT people attribute all of the hate this game gets to fanboyism? way to easily dismiss all of the games shortcomings people are legitimately upset about, thus driving them to other sims they've been playing since before (or during) pcars

criticism I've read on other forums regarding pcars (this is not my criticism):

- features (and platforms lol) announced, then dropped (dx12, oval racing, full pit stops, fleshed out career mode, races with multiple classes that make sense)
- unsatisfactory driving model (especially with the latest patch which makes cars "floaty")
- bugs (especially in multiplayer) preventing them from posting correct times of finishing races thus frustrating them and keeping them away from the game
- out of the box ffb that is underwhelming
- and others that don't come to my mind atm

driving model and ffb seem to be the biggest issues for people

I guess all of this will be fixed in pcars2 but people arent as understanding, especially if they are charged full price and promised the above in pcars1

Umer Ahmad
10-01-2016, 11:40
Closing this whinge thread

If you have a bug to report do it
If you have a feature to suggest do it
If you want to help someone with their question about the game do it