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View Full Version : Is something up or am I doing something wrong? tyre problems



Leper Messiah
10-01-2016, 18:15
Did some hotlapping at SStone Nat in the RGT8 and noticed some weird things.

I initially lapped with the street tyres and had a blast, I thought I'd try the track day tyres and presumed they'd be stickier....they felt worse, slid around quite a bit and only went a few 10ths faster (I'm certain that was just me getting faster rather than the tyres). I decided to do some "testing" (ah the good old days!) and tried the wets...worse of all in the dry (as to be expected). So I thought I'd try them all in a storm......street tyres felt pretty damn good, less grip but not overly so which is what I personally would expect, 6 seconds slower lap time than in the dry. Track day tyres were awful (as expected so not complaining!) and I couldn't complete a lap. But here's the other issue, I put the wets on and they were just as bad as the track day tyres....I just could not complete a lap. Can't be right? Am I doing something wrong or is there a problem?

So to summarise Track day tyres didn't feel grippy enough in dry, wet weather tyres didn't feel grippy enough in the wet. In both weather conditions the street tyres felt the best.

Sorry if in wrong section, sorry if already discussed.

Roger Prynne
10-01-2016, 18:34
Something to do with the tyre heating bug maybe?

bradleyland
10-01-2016, 22:57
I don't know if this is the case with the track day tires on the RGT-8, but all the slicks require the appropriate temperature before they have any grip at all. Did you warm the track day tires up, or were your impressions right out of the pits?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-01-2016, 23:32
The Track-Soft tyres tend to be the slipperiest of the bunch when cold, but once you get them up to temp they really come to life and are a LOT faster than the Mediums.

Leper Messiah
11-01-2016, 08:11
Something to do with the tyre heating bug maybe?


I don't know if this is the case with the track day tires on the RGT-8, but all the slicks require the appropriate temperature before they have any grip at all. Did you warm the track day tires up, or were your impressions right out of the pits?


The Track-Soft tyres tend to be the slipperiest of the bunch when cold, but once you get them up to temp they really come to life and are a LOT faster than the Mediums.


cheers for the replies lads

Ah that sort of makes sense for the track day tyres, I presume they are more or less cut slicks? I'll try more laps, but it did seem to be a bit excessive (though not as bad as RF2), could the bug Roger mentioned be exasperating the issue with the warm up of the track day tyres?

But why were the wet weather tyres awful in the storm and worse than the street tyres?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-01-2016, 12:59
But why were the wet weather tyres awful in the storm and worse than the street tyres?By "wet weather tyres" do you mean the absolutely humongously grippy Max Performance Summer tyres that are called "All Weather"/Pirelli P Zero/Nitto NT450 (sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine, since in real life terms those tyres are just about the second highest level of grip you'd ever consider for road use), and by "street tyres" do you mean the Ultra Performance Summer tyres called "Street-medium"/Pirelli P Zero Corsa/Nitto NT550 that are intended really mostly for track days or the absolutely fastest cars and not that suited for general road use, with many people in real life driving to the track with more normal tyres and bolting those on once they get there? =)

Sorry, sorry, the naming of the tyres just annoys me a bit, it annoys me that tyres that really are super duper grippy compared to almost anything else you see in real life, tyres hailed as some of the best high grip sporty tyres ever are called "All Weather"... Anyway yeah you're right, the water clearing properties of the tyres don't really seem to work out properly, the higher grip tyres are higher grip in the wet as well. Another issue is that if you do manage to get the tyres to be hot then the rain doesn't even affect the grip on the road tyres really, you can get the same lateral Gs as you can in the dry if the tyres are around 90C.

Leper Messiah
11-01-2016, 13:10
By "wet weather tyres" do you mean the absolutely humongously grippy Max Performance Summer tyres that are called "All Weather"/Pirelli P Zero/Nitto NT450 (sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine, since in real life terms those tyres are just about the second highest level of grip you'd ever consider for road use), and by "street tyres" do you mean the Ultra Performance Summer tyres called "Street-medium"/Pirelli P Zero Corsa/Nitto NT550 that are intended really mostly for track days or the absolutely fastest cars and not that suited for general road use, with many people in real life driving to the track with more normal tyres and bolting those on once they get there? =)

Sorry, sorry, the naming of the tyres just annoys me a bit, it annoys me that tyres that really are super duper grippy compared to almost anything else you see in real life, tyres hailed as some of the best high grip sporty tyres ever are called "All Weather"... Anyway yeah you're right, the water clearing properties of the tyres don't really seem to work out properly, the higher grip tyres are higher grip in the wet as well. Another issue is that if you do manage to get the tyres to be hot then the rain doesn't even affect the grip on the road tyres really, you can get the same lateral Gs as you can in the dry if the tyres are around 90C.

Ah I see! Yeah the streets are the mediums and what I presumed were the wet are "all weather".

So I need to bring the track day (soft) tyres and "all weather" tyres properly up to temp and the street "medium" tyres are best for the wet?

I seem to remember a list of the tyres somewhere that explained them (I think you compiled it Jussi), I need to find that again methinks and invest more time in the Sim.

bradleyland
11-01-2016, 13:19
If I'm reading Jussi correctly, he's saying that you should pretty much always run the track day tyres, as the "all weather" tires don't clear water any better.

This kind of makes sense if you evaluate it in the context of what we have in the real world, but I agree with Jussi. It ends up being confusing in the game.

For example, a set of Michelin PS Cup 2 tires perform great in the rain, but when you order a car from the manufacturer, you have the option of selecting an "all weather" tire. That's literally what BMW calls it anyway. So it looks like PCars is just following the tire industry's naming conventions, but from a practical perspective, there's not much reason to every use anything but the max-performance tire on the road cars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-01-2016, 13:41
It's been a while since I tested them like that and even then it was only quickly (need to get back to that actually), but I think the track-soft tyres might not be that good in the wet because they're so cold sensitive, and rain tends to keep them cold. If you want speed it's probably best to go for softs in the dry and mediums in the wet. Though if it's only a lap or two in the dry then the softs won't have time to warm up (assuming you start on cold tyres).

What car does BMW even offer Cup 2 tyres for currently, I've missed that? Even the 12C, 458, SLS etc. run the "regular" P Zero and Pilot Sport tyres by default and you have to specifically select the P Zero Corsa and Pilot Sport Cup options for them in most cases (depends on the region, depends on the store, obviously). While researching for tyre performance levels I also found that there were a ton of mentions on owners' forums that if you can avoid it you really don't want to drive around normally with the Corsa and Cup tyres because they're not as good in the wet as the normal P Zero and Pilot Sport (though this assumes we're talking about more than just moist surfaces and fairly cold tyres, you know, normal road use) and sand, stones, just driving around wears them down a helluva lot quicker than the P Zeros and Pilot Sports.

Unfortunately I haven't managed to find a proper side by side test of the Pilot Sport and the Pilot Sport Cup in the wet (nor the P Zero and P Zero Corsa), so it's hard to be certain how they actually match up in real life when doing performance driving...

Leper Messiah
11-01-2016, 14:35
Right oh, I think I'm getting there...so what exactly is the "all weather" tyre for?

Roger Prynne
11-01-2016, 14:46
Ah I see! Yeah the streets are the mediums and what I presumed were the wet are "all weather".

So I need to bring the track day (soft) tyres and "all weather" tyres properly up to temp and the street "medium" tyres are best for the wet?

I seem to remember a list of the tyres somewhere that explained them (I think you compiled it Jussi), I need to find that again methinks and invest more time in the Sim.

Check out the link in my sig.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-01-2016, 16:12
Right oh, I think I'm getting there...so what exactly is the "all weather" tyre for?For people who want to drive cars with something closer to reasonable road use tyres. I personally want to drive the road cars with tyres that are as close to whatever they were delivered with, so for example I put the P Zero Corsas on the P1 and P Zeros on the 12C, and Denlocs on the McLaren F1, Ruf CTR and Evo VI, and so on. =)

EDIT: The default tyres you get with "according to weather" should also in most cases give you tyres that are closer to the standard tyres the car is equipped with IRL. So most Road C cars use the All Weather variant of whatever tyre they have, but Road A is mostly running on the Street-Medium tyres. Also online with people you know (not randoms) you can use them to even out the playing field a bit. The 12C is in the same class as the P1 but obviously can't hope to keep up, so you can slap the P Zeros on the P1 and the P Zero Corsas or even the P Zero Trofeos on the 12C and it'll be a much closer match up. We're currently doing this with a friend of mine in a series of Road B races (two humans, as many AI as possible) where he drives the BAC Mono on the less grippy Prime option and I drive the Rocket Bunny FR-S with the Track-Soft tyres. =)

bradleyland
11-01-2016, 18:17
It's been a while since I tested them like that and even then it was only quickly (need to get back to that actually), but I think the track-soft tyres might not be that good in the wet because they're so cold sensitive, and rain tends to keep them cold. If you want speed it's probably best to go for softs in the dry and mediums in the wet. Though if it's only a lap or two in the dry then the softs won't have time to warm up (assuming you start on cold tyres).

What car does BMW even offer Cup 2 tyres for currently, I've missed that? Even the 12C, 458, SLS etc. run the "regular" P Zero and Pilot Sport tyres by default and you have to specifically select the P Zero Corsa and Pilot Sport Cup options for them in most cases (depends on the region, depends on the store, obviously). While researching for tyre performance levels I also found that there were a ton of mentions on owners' forums that if you can avoid it you really don't want to drive around normally with the Corsa and Cup tyres because they're not as good in the wet as the normal P Zero and Pilot Sport (though this assumes we're talking about more than just moist surfaces and fairly cold tyres, you know, normal road use) and sand, stones, just driving around wears them down a helluva lot quicker than the P Zeros and Pilot Sports.

Unfortunately I haven't managed to find a proper side by side test of the Pilot Sport and the Pilot Sport Cup in the wet (nor the P Zero and P Zero Corsa), so it's hard to be certain how they actually match up in real life when doing performance driving...

Yeah, using Cup 2 wasn't really a great example (I was just speaking hypothetically), because I've never configured a BMW with them. However, most of their line-up has a "summer" and an "all weather" tire. What they really mean by "all weather" is, "You probably won't kill yourself in the snow with this tire. Probably."

The only BMW I know of with the PS Cup 2 is the new M4 GTS.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-01-2016, 18:23
Yeah, using Cup 2 wasn't really a great example (I was just speaking hypothetically), because I've never configured a BMW with them. However, most of their line-up has a "summer" and an "all weather" tire. What they really mean by "all weather" is, "You probably won't kill yourself in the snow with this tire. Probably."

The only BMW I know of with the PS Cup 2 is the new M4 GTS.Isn't that usually called "all season" though?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-01-2016, 20:37
I did another quick try in Thunderstorm conditions with all three normal road tyres, with both hot (test track) and cold (Sonoma) tyres. With cold tyres the All Weather and the Street-Medium have pretty much identical grip, maybe just a hair more on the Street-Medium. The Track-Soft are very slippery when cold anyway, and even more so in the wet.

When hot though the effects of the rain go away, with tyres in the 90-100C region you get exactly the same grip in Thunderstorm as you get in the dry on all three tyres (so All Weather least grip, Street-Medium more grip, Track-Soft most grip). The trick is obviously that in the wet it's not at all easy to get the Track-Soft tyres to heat up, and you'll just be slipping and sliding around before then. The Street-Medium though starts of just like the All Weather and as it warms up even a bit it gets better, so those are the preferable wet tyres for out and out speed.

Incidentally, based on the cornering and braking Gs, the Renault Megane 275 Trophy-R with All Weather tyres in Thunderstorm conditions is (initially, with tyres below 30C) almost exactly as grippy as a "normal" good quality summer tyre of today, something you'd get in a normal Megane for example. =)

Mahjik
11-01-2016, 20:42
Just as an FYI, the track soft tires for the street cars are based on something like a Kumho Victoracer (so it's not a complete slick):

http://tehamatire-2.tcsparts.tcsgeeks.com/wp_cache_images/view/ManufacturersProductsLine/1086/true/file_image/1086.jpg?notFound=sample-tire.jpg

People do use those as rain tires in some cases (i.e. they use them at full tread depth). I use the Toyo RA1 (unshaved) as a rain tire which is similar.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-01-2016, 21:13
Just as an FYI, the track soft tires for the street cars are based on something like a Kumho Victoracer (so it's not a complete slick):

http://tehamatire-2.tcsparts.tcsgeeks.com/wp_cache_images/view/ManufacturersProductsLine/1086/true/file_image/1086.jpg?notFound=sample-tire.jpg

People do use those as rain tires in some cases (i.e. they use them at full tread depth). I use the Toyo RA1 (unshaved) as a rain tire which is similar.Yeah, those and stuff like Pirelli P Zero Trofeo (R). Essentially R compound tyres that are still barely road legal.

Leper Messiah
12-01-2016, 08:31
cheers for all the info lads and thanks for reminding me where I found that link Roger! :)

I think my problem is I'm crap awful at warming tyres up!! I'm more of a biker than a car driver and have quite clumsy feet which doesn't help LOL!

bradleyland
12-01-2016, 15:45
cheers for all the info lads and thanks for reminding me where I found that link Roger! :)

I think my problem is I'm crap awful at warming tyres up!! I'm more of a biker than a car driver and have quite clumsy feet which doesn't help LOL!

Man, I feel you on that one! It's a balancing act between being patient and pushing the car hard enough to actually warm the tires. I love to spin the car coming right out of the pits. Gah! :)

Leper Messiah
12-01-2016, 18:27
Man, I feel you on that one! It's a balancing act between being patient and pushing the car hard enough to actually warm the tires. I love to spin the car coming right out of the pits. Gah! :)

been there done that, I think it's probably the lack of g forces acting on my body. That's probably the crucial bit of info our brains just arn't getting. As good as Sims are, as good as VR is going to be, until someone finds a way to simulate g forces then we will still be getting a very much watered down experience of racing a car on track!!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
12-01-2016, 18:34
Yeah, and the lower the grip goes the worse the perceived discrepancy is. I remember during development people thinking they were getting massive understeer in a situation that any normal road car would handle with ease (IIRC it was either changing lanes or getting to an off-ramp), yet testing out the speed and situation specified they were trying to get more than 1.2 Gs out of the car. 1.2 Gs is a huge amount of grip to have on a car compared to anything "normal", but it's not necessarily visually that impressive when seen on a screen, so it doesn't feel like that much. 2 Gs and 3-4 Gs is already makes stuff flicker by so much quicker that you realize you're going fast. =)

bradleyland
12-01-2016, 20:10
been there done that, I think it's probably the lack of g forces acting on my body. That's probably the crucial bit of info our brains just arn't getting. As good as Sims are, as good as VR is going to be, until someone finds a way to simulate g forces then we will still be getting a very much watered down experience of racing a car on track!!

Oh man, based on my driving, that'd be detrimental to my health :D