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Flamaros
10-01-2016, 18:32
Project cars as the potential to be a great game, but a lot of little issues still bother me. I love racing car game, I can play simulations, even if I am not an expert, so I don't have time and desire to take hours of configuring the game.

The first issue at launch time was about wheel feedback, now it seems much better but I still use custom settings from community. (I have a G27)

Now the main issue still bother me is the AI, choosing the AI level manually is boring, and it's impossible to find the good percentage to have an AI I can beat with a good challenge simply because it depends of the tracks and car combination I use. Sometime I have issue to defeat AI at 40% and some other time I can put it at 60% or more. Tweaking this during the career mode is a non sense and time consuming just to be able to enjoy a race.
I am expecting an AI that is able to adapt his difficulty to myself during the race, by doing stats,... Raceroom do something interesting on this point.

I also notice that the AI still go out of the track just after leaving the pit lane during practice sessions with the side effect of coming back on the track too fast and hurting other cars.

Don't forget on a closed track only the opponents are a source of adrenaline when fighting them closely.

Roger Prynne
10-01-2016, 18:40
It's AI and not IA by the way :)

Flamaros
10-01-2016, 18:58
It's AI and not IA by the way :)

Sorry I am sleeping lol.

Plato99
10-01-2016, 19:48
It's AI and not IA by the way :)

Maybe it had spun?!

Flamaros
10-01-2016, 20:38
Maybe it had spun?!

It's just because I am french, and when write it IA instead of AI, I wrote it wrong by reflex.

BigDad
10-01-2016, 20:43
;-)

Shinzah
10-01-2016, 20:48
I don't think anyone is going to confuse the meanings of intelligence artificielle and artificial intelligence, it's clear what he meant.

Anyway, I can understand the OP's frustration at having to adjust difficulty nearly on a track by track basis. However, I would prefer this method to a career mode like other games in which the AI is constantly slow and useless at maximum difficulty always...

At least we have the option to try and change the situation in order to get the experience we will enjoy most. Though I do hope we will see a more robust AI implementation in Pcars2 that uses some of the features we don't see much of in Pcars1, but have be asserted as existing by the developers.

Sloskimo
10-01-2016, 20:50
Making AI respond to you in realtime will open up the rubberbanding can of worms, personally I'd rather just restart the race and adjust the AI level vs "magic cars" that suddenly catch up to me. Since it takes the racing element out of the game, no matter how fast you go, they would always keep up.

Mahjik
10-01-2016, 20:53
While it's definitely a user's prerogative to want certain things, but you being better or worse at certain tracks than your competition is a reality. Certain tracks in real life suit particular drivers' styles and those drivers will perform well on those tracks and maybe struggle on others.

Goothrey
10-01-2016, 20:56
Looks like there is an opportunity for someone to create a database that has average track times for AI difficulty levels for each car at each track. Then you can compare your own time and adjust the difficulty from there. Would take quite a bit of time though. Unless there is something like that that already exists and I'm not aware...

kevin kirk
10-01-2016, 21:43
I have never bothered with career mode in any game. If I am looking forward to a race I want to watch on tv, I will race at that track until it happins in real life and move on to the next track after the real race. As far as setting AI. I like it to be in the realistic range to if I would be in a real race. I highly doubt I could jump in a car and win a race at spa against a pro driver so I don't want to set the game in a way that I could suddenly jump in a car and win at spa.

Flamaros
10-01-2016, 23:17
Looks like there is an opportunity for someone to create a database that has average track times for AI difficulty levels for each car at each track. Then you can compare your own time and adjust the difficulty from there. Would take quite a bit of time though. Unless there is something like that that already exists and I'm not aware...

It's just how it works on RaceRoom, the game just record our times on each session and do some stats to auto adjust the AI level. I don't request something as bad as in arcade game with a basic catch up mechanism. Doing stats is perfectly fine as during practice sessions we only try to do our best lap and no compete directly other opponents, so at this time it's fine if AI cars doesn't match our performances.

For me this "auto" difficulty level is an option that is already compatible with the actual implementation and as an option it's not an obligation to use it.

Flamaros
10-01-2016, 23:27
I have never bothered with career mode in any game. If I am looking forward to a race I want to watch on tv, I will race at that track until it happins in real life and move on to the next track after the real race. As far as setting AI. I like it to be in the realistic range to if I would be in a real race. I highly doubt I could jump in a car and win a race at spa against a pro driver so I don't want to set the game in a way that I could suddenly jump in a car and win at spa.

I don't want to win all races on the first try that exactly my point, it will bother me, but I don't want neither to finish with many laps later than the winner. I want something challenging, just a small amount better than I currently am. If stats gaves me an average time of a 1''30'000 on a track I want an AI doing it in 1''28'000 during qualification and 1"29'500 during race for exemple. In this way will have to push hard to progress on hot lap and taking care of avoiding errors during the race.

If you are able to always put the AI at 100% it's nice, but some of us will never be able to drive that fast.

Having this "auto" level feature can be an option.

hkraft300
11-01-2016, 03:57
Maybe in pcars2 if SMS put in such a player performance tracking system the AI difficulty can be tied in with it?

Salty Dog
11-01-2016, 06:26
I dont want to sound rude but maybe games like need for speed or driveclub are a better fit for you if you dont want to put time into setting up the cars and game, its very immersive and part of the reason i enjoy the game.
cheers

Cholton82
11-01-2016, 07:47
I just set it at 80 , some tracks I'm good at and some I'm not so good . So in career mode I know the tracks I should do well at and have a good opportunity to win and also the tracks where it's damage limitation time .

Invincible
11-01-2016, 08:05
When I race in career, I usually set something between 85 and 100.
When I don't know a car or track, or I just have to drive something from which I know I suck at, I go down by 5. If both car and track are terrible or new for me, I go down by 10. That usually does it for me. If it doesn't, well, than I don't win once in a while. At least I have good challenge trying to keep the pace.

ELAhrairah
11-01-2016, 10:34
I play with 85% in le mans lmp races. And the same thing happens always: one car faster than the rest of the field and it drives away from the rest. Its a bit predictable but hey the ai element is not what made me buy pcars..

demerzel
11-01-2016, 13:56
I don't want to be rude but how about 100% ai and practice?

DreamsKnight
11-01-2016, 14:11
I don't want to be rude but how about 100% ai and practice?

the ai is not balanced over categories. if you see m1 procar at laguna seca, ai can do lower times than the best in the time attack. with toyota gt-86, ai is so slow that you can destroy it at 100% keeping eyes closed. :D

Invincible
11-01-2016, 14:22
the ai is not balanced over categories. if you see m1 procar at laguna seca, ai can do lower times than the best in the time attack. with toyota gt-86, ai is so slow that you can destroy it at 100% keeping eyes closed. :D

It seems like the Ai is generally pretty fast at Laguna Seca. I'm usually up for a win or at least coming in the top 10, but with the Road A Radical, the leader murdered me by 4 - 5 seconds per lap and was also slightly faster than the TT record.

Haiden
11-01-2016, 15:45
I just use the practice round to determine whether or not I need to raise/lower the AI difficulty.

bradleyland
11-01-2016, 15:52
the ai is not balanced over categories. if you see m1 procar at laguna seca, ai can do lower times than the best in the time attack. with toyota gt-86, ai is so slow that you can destroy it at 100% keeping eyes closed. :D

This is really important for people to understand in any conversation about AI. It seems that plenty of people who play PCars play on a limited set of tracks/cars. That seems natural; you gravitate toward what you enjoy. The mistake is in extrapolating this to mean that conditions are the same for all players. For example, I gravitate toward tin-tops. I race road cars, GT, and touring. Rarely open wheel or prototype. There are track/car combinations where I struggle to beat the AI on 60, much less 85-100.

As DreamsKnight pointed out, when turned up to 100, the AI will sometimes achieve lap times that are faster than any human in the world. This is because the AI use a simplified physics model. It would require massive computational power to do the full physics simulation for a full grid of AI drivers.

bradleyland
11-01-2016, 15:53
I just use the practice round to determine whether or not I need to raise/lower the AI difficulty.

This is exactly what I do. The only thing I'd add is that you should give the AI plenty of time to set their lap times. Sometimes the "fast AI" will get held up in traffic and throw down a really fast lap in the later part of the session.

tytanfyre
11-01-2016, 16:14
Good discussion in this thread. I find setting AI between 85 and 100, go steady on the first lap, and then fight your way through to the front. You get a really good race experience that way.

DreamsKnight
11-01-2016, 17:30
This is exactly what I do. The only thing I'd add is that you should give the AI plenty of time to set their lap times. Sometimes the "fast AI" will get held up in traffic and throw down a really fast lap in the later part of the session.

time to 60x, you see the final time, then restart the session. if you use "skip to the end of session" there is a bug and you see out of mind times superfast.

Konan
11-01-2016, 18:45
I just use the practice round to determine whether or not I need to raise/lower the AI difficulty.

That's actually a good point...I never use practice but i will from now on...thanks :D

pigsy
12-01-2016, 04:20
Maybe it had spun?!

The AI doesn't spin. :)

lokpes
12-01-2016, 06:38
I started a new career in Formula C. For the first time I put in 100% duration of the race, with difficulty by 95%. I admit I was surprise with the difficulty, always get about 1 second to 300 milliseconds ahead or behind the pole. And this further increases the adrenaline. but all without change anything in the car configuration. I believe that if change something adjust the car to my drive style (something that I don't know how to do) I would be even faster.
As a good human being I committed many mistakes during the race, lose the breaking point and things like that
But that only makes the game even more exciting.
My point is You can't expect to get pole and first place all the time, shit happens.
You must challenge yourself. if you always play at same dificulty level it gets boring.

P.S: sorry for my bad english :(

m355y
12-01-2016, 07:11
I still play it, but admittedly far less than I did (same goes for posting on here, I guess the two things go hand in hand). I think there are two reasons for that - first, I infuriated my wife by taking the plunge and buying an XB1 and Forza 6. For months I've been quietly quite envious of FM6 while trying to convince myself that PCars is better for being a serious sim - actually I've found FM6 is pretty much ideal for me in that it's the motorsport plaything I've always wanted - it has a better selection of tracks (WHY no street courses in PCars?), better selection of cars, now you can specify the class you race against which brings it at least up to par with PCars on that one, it has the Indycars we've all grown tired of waiting for here, you can set up a great race at your leisure, it looks pretty amazing, etc. Maybe I'll grow tired of it and go back to PCars - certainly I still prefer the feeling of a long distance race on PCars, with pitstops, tyre wear, strategy...but you're talking there about when everything's right , the sun is shining, the wind's blowing in the right direction....when PCars isn't crashing, or being buggy or having all the tyre heating messed about with, etc etc. Sometimes it's not worth the frustration.

Second, I think it's because I don't play online. Career gets boring, so you're left with solo mode, which can be great - but after a few months just feels a bit limited and the car packs, the odd new track here and there, just don't quite cover the fact that it can be a fairly limited experience. The debacle with custom championships and ovals hasn't helped. They were what I was pinning my hopes on.

Don't get me wrong, I still love PCars and what SMS have tried to do with it, but I think I've turned to the dark side.

Invincible
12-01-2016, 07:52
Don't get me wrong, I still love PCars and what SMS have tried to do with it, but I think I've turned to the dark side.

You were the chosen one!!

No, just kidding. Anyway, nice to see you back once in a while. While I admit that, for some, Pcars didn't live up to it's hype and I am also a bit bummed that some features were cut / postponed to the second iteration, I still love it. I tried Assetto Corsa and came back to Pcars. I tried Assetto Corsa and came back to Pcars. Same for Dirt Rally, although I play it every once in a while.
And that's what I also see with many guys who wanted to leave for good.
So I put my hope into Pcars and it's "gravitation" that it will get you back to the bright side :D

Cheesenium
12-01-2016, 08:10
I still play it, but admittedly far less than I did (same goes for posting on here, I guess the two things go hand in hand). I think there are two reasons for that - first, I infuriated my wife by taking the plunge and buying an XB1 and Forza 6. For months I've been quietly quite envious of FM6 while trying to convince myself that PCars is better for being a serious sim - actually I've found FM6 is pretty much ideal for me in that it's the motorsport plaything I've always wanted - it has a better selection of tracks (WHY no street courses in PCars?), better selection of cars, now you can specify the class you race against which brings it at least up to par with PCars on that one, it has the Indycars we've all grown tired of waiting for here, you can set up a great race at your leisure, it looks pretty amazing, etc. Maybe I'll grow tired of it and go back to PCars - certainly I still prefer the feeling of a long distance race on PCars, with pitstops, tyre wear, strategy...but you're talking there about when everything's right , the sun is shining, the wind's blowing in the right direction....when PCars isn't crashing, or being buggy or having all the tyre heating messed about with, etc etc. Sometimes it's not worth the frustration.

Second, I think it's because I don't play online. Career gets boring, so you're left with solo mode, which can be great - but after a few months just feels a bit limited and the car packs, the odd new track here and there, just don't quite cover the fact that it can be a fairly limited experience. The debacle with custom championships and ovals hasn't helped. They were what I was pinning my hopes on.

Don't get me wrong, I still love PCars and what SMS have tried to do with it, but I think I've turned to the dark side.

Well, just play what you enjoy instead of sticking to one game that other people thinks you should be "loyal" to.

I love pcars despite its major flaws in many aspects. I admit that I had been playing AC a lot recently because I quite like some combination of cars and tracks in that game so I decided to spend more time in it. Nothing wrong with that as it is my choice to play what I fancy at the moment since every game has it's own strength that others dont. Maybe I'll play R3E, Dirt or pcars tonight or it could be more AC, I just dont see the point of being "loyal" to one game as if that game is part of your life or something.

I do agree that it is quite disappointing to see a lot of features are pushed to sequel and some of the DLCs, like this month's one looks quite dull, pcars is still a damn good racing game since day one. SMS knows what are they doing, I think the sequel will be a treat for pcars fan considering what I saw in WMD that might be in the final game years from now.

Leper Messiah
12-01-2016, 08:10
While it's definitely a user's prerogative to want certain things, but you being better or worse at certain tracks than your competition is a reality. Certain tracks in real life suit particular drivers' styles and those drivers will perform well on those tracks and maybe struggle on others.


I just set it at 80 , some tracks I'm good at and some I'm not so good . So in career mode I know the tracks I should do well at and have a good opportunity to win and also the tracks where it's damage limitation time .

Gotta agree lads, it's unrealistic to expect to be on the same pace as the Ai on EVERY track. There's some tracks I love and I'm fast at, some I love and I'm awful at, some I hate where I'm fast and some I hate where I'm awful. Obviously the tracks I love but I'm crap on are the worst LOL! So frustrating.

And likewise with cars too, some I'm ace in...others I'm like Mr Magoo!!



although I'm struggling to find the time I want for the game as I'm addicted to MotoGP 15 and also recently added RF2 and GSCE to my collection of PCARS, AC and R3E......so many great games and not enough time!

k.merse
14-01-2016, 17:45
PC could have been the best game of 2015. I had very high expectations, especially about the promised long-time support. But seeing how the devs treated the game and its fanbase, never fully finishing features, leaving in critical bugs etc. I don't think I'm gonna invest into PC or its successors for a while.

ex_
15-01-2016, 15:36
AI difficulty shows that there are some car-types that you do not know how to drive as well as others. You shouldn't need to adjust this much. Actually, if you want to not rear-end cars in this game and others, sometimes turning up AI is better than having it low. The lower, the dumber a lot of times.

Konan
15-01-2016, 18:21
PC could have been the best game of 2015. I had very high expectations, especially about the promised long-time support. But seeing how the devs treated the game and its fanbase, never fully finishing features, leaving in critical bugs etc. I don't think I'm gonna invest into PC or its successors for a while.

What exactly do you mean about treating the game and its fan base?
They are doing everything they can to resolve the issues reported and have been open for communication....up until (and even beyond) the ranting started...
How would YOU feel if something you put a hell of a lot of sweat and tears into would be ridiculed,thrashed and diminished by people who "didn't get what they wanted"?
If you don't want to invest..so be it..
I see you're on pc...well to me on ps4 it IS the best (racing) game of 2015...

Sankyo
15-01-2016, 19:21
PC could have been the best game of 2015. I had very high expectations, especially about the promised long-time support. But seeing how the devs treated the game and its fanbase, never fully finishing features, leaving in critical bugs etc. I don't think I'm gonna invest into PC or its successors for a while.

You make it sound like SMS decided to not include certain features or not fix certain bugs just because they weren't in the mood or something. It has been explained many times already why things aren't added or fixed anymore. If people don't accept or understand that explanation it's not SMS's fault.

Konan
15-01-2016, 19:26
You make it sound like SMS decided to not include certain features or not fix certain bugs just because they weren't in the mood or something. It has been explained many times already why things aren't added or fixed anymore. If people don't accept or understand that explanation it's not SMS's fault.

True that...people please come to terms that SMS did everything they could to please everyone but...face it...that's an impossible task...
I DO believe the majority of racing game fans got what they wanted....wait for Pcars2 and be amazed when it comes out...I'm certain of it!

the-D-
15-01-2016, 19:31
What exactly do you mean about treating the game and its fan base?
They are doing everything they can to resolve the issues reported and have been open for communication....up until (and even beyond) the ranting started...
How would YOU feel if something you put a hell of a lot of sweat and tears into would be ridiculed,thrashed and diminished by people who "didn't get what they wanted"?
If you don't want to invest..so be it..
I see you're on pc...well to me on ps4 it IS the best (racing) game of 2015...

Doing everything they can is a bit strongly worded,...think about it ;)

Konan
15-01-2016, 19:35
Doing everything they can is a bit strongly worded,...think about it ;)

I thought about it..............................and i stand by my comment...so now it's up to you to prove me wrong...

ELAhrairah
15-01-2016, 19:36
Mods are starting to come to pcars and they are starting to make this game one of the best sims out there....

the-D-
15-01-2016, 19:38
I thought about it..............................and i stand by my comment...so now it's up to you to prove me wrong...

PCARS 2 ;)

Konan
15-01-2016, 19:42
PCARS 2 ;)

Yep....if it is going to be what i think it will....I'm sold...:cool:

the-D-
15-01-2016, 19:44
Yep....if it is going to be what i think it will....I'm sold...:cool:

Nuff said :rolleyes:

diesel97
15-01-2016, 21:51
True that...people please come to terms that SMS did everything they could to please everyone but...face it...that's an impossible task...
I DO believe the majority of racing game fans got what they wanted....wait for Pcars2 and be amazed when it comes out...I'm certain of it!

This statement isn't 100% true because with enough time and money anything can be fixed or added. It is business decision company is spending more money then what they will get in return its time to down size.

Konan
15-01-2016, 21:59
This statement isn't 100% true because with enough time and money anything can be fixed or added. It is business decision company is spending more money then what they will get in return its time to down size.

This has nothing to do about money....it has everything to do about the capability of the software....if the engine was up to it i'm sure everything they said would have been implemented....
Too bad some people still think they deliberately left those things out....

cry4dawn
15-01-2016, 22:03
While PCars is a great SINGLE PLAYER game and seems to have a good bit of support on the patch and DLC side, what kills it for me is the online multiplayer. I love going online and racing against real people, but every time I do there is someone that just wants to ruin everyone else's race. I have yet to find a MP lobby that was well populated and did not have at least one of these types. While I DO like to win races, I realize that there are better drivers than me out there and I respect the time and effort they put into their craft (yes, racing IS a craft) by not trying to beat them at any cost. My main goal is to always finish the race with as little damage as possible, no matter my finishing position. As long as I did my best and feel that I had a good race I'm happy.

I found someplace that I can get this respectful and clean racing. While the graphics may not be as good it is the racing that I really like. The graphics are a bonus. I may come back and play PCars once in a while, but I doubt that I will enter the MP lobbies as regularly as I used to. Unless these people learn some respect, which I seriously doubt will ever happen...

Konan
15-01-2016, 22:10
While PCars is a great SINGLE PLAYER game and seems to have a good bit of support on the patch and DLC side, what kills it for me is the online multiplayer. I love going online and racing against real people, but every time I do there is someone that just wants to ruin everyone else's race. I have yet to find a MP lobby that was well populated and did not have at least one of these types. While I DO like to win races, I realize that there are better drivers than me out there and I respect the time and effort they put into their craft (yes, racing IS a craft) by not trying to beat them at any cost. My main goal is to always finish the race with as little damage as possible, no matter my finishing position. As long as I did my best and feel that I had a good race I'm happy.

I found someplace that I can get this respectful and clean racing. While the graphics may not be as good it is the racing that I really like. The graphics are a bonus. I may come back and play PCars once in a while, but I doubt that I will enter the MP lobbies as regularly as I used to. Unless these people learn some respect, which I seriously doubt will ever happen...

I never play online but i heard it is really a sluggfest out there....I sympathise with you and hope those "bangers" will come to their senses one day...what's the use of winning a race when you haven't won it fair and square...just cheating yourself actually...

IJOJOI
15-01-2016, 22:27
While PCars is a great SINGLE PLAYER game and seems to have a good bit of support on the patch and DLC side, what kills it for me is the online multiplayer. I love going online and racing against real people, but every time I do there is someone that just wants to ruin everyone else's race. I have yet to find a MP lobby that was well populated and did not have at least one of these types. While I DO like to win races, I realize that there are better drivers than me out there and I respect the time and effort they put into their craft (yes, racing IS a craft) by not trying to beat them at any cost. My main goal is to always finish the race with as little damage as possible, no matter my finishing position. As long as I did my best and feel that I had a good race I'm happy.

I found someplace that I can get this respectful and clean racing. While the graphics may not be as good it is the racing that I really like. The graphics are a bonus. I may come back and play PCars once in a while, but I doubt that I will enter the MP lobbies as regularly as I used to. Unless these people learn some respect, which I seriously doubt will ever happen...

Easy solution. ..
Join a league!
There are funrace too...

diesel97
15-01-2016, 22:30
This has nothing to do about money....it has everything to do about the capability of the software....if the engine was up to it i'm sure everything they said would have been implemented....
Too bad some people still think they deliberately left those things out....

Yes there is limits on the engine and the devs have found the limits on some things but not all. I could go into a list but it just turns into a big p*ssing match and it helps nobody. But please dont think that there wasn't some dollars & cents decisions going on

Shinzah
16-01-2016, 00:20
I never play online but i heard it is really a sluggfest out there....I sympathise with you and hope those "bangers" will come to their senses one day...what's the use of winning a race when you haven't won it fair and square...just cheating yourself actually...

Public lobbies in a popular racing game are generally a bad idea. Getting into a like-minded league or with friends is where the best online experience will come.

Edit:

This statement isn't 100% true because with enough time and money anything can be fixed or added. It is business decision company is spending more money then what they will get in return its time to down size.

You're right. You're absolutely right. Except what did you expect to happen...? It would be a poor business decision to drag development into multiple years. On some level of resolution one has to consolidate what they have and make the best of it. In a highly competitive games market with much more complex coding than ten or twenty years ago, it's not feasible for a game developer to do this. SMS had major financial difficulties coming closer to launch. There's no doubt they would have gladly took another delay if they could garuntee their own financial stability as a company. But they simply couldn't. When dev funds are scant and you have a mostly working product its time to try and polish and send it out the door. Or face business suicide in order to chase an absolute perfect product first time out.

So yeah, with enough time and money anything can be fixed or added but that's not the whole story. Heck if it was, Star Citizen would be the worlds most impressive technical achievement since Frontier Elite 2. And it's really not. Even with multiple hollywood film budgets and years of work in overhead.

diesel97
16-01-2016, 00:36
Public lobbies in a popular racing game are generally a bad idea. Getting into a like-minded league or with friends is where the best online experience will come.

Edit:


You're right. You're absolutely right. Except what did you expect to happen...? It would be a poor business decision to drag development into multiple years. On some level of resolution one has to consolidate what they have and make the best of it. In a highly competitive games market with much more complex coding than ten or twenty years ago, it's not feasible for a game developer to do this. SMS had major financial difficulties coming closer to launch. There's no doubt they would have gladly took another delay if they could garuntee their own financial stability as a company. But they simply couldn't. When dev funds are scant and you have a mostly working product its time to try and polish and send it out the door. Or face business suicide in order to chase an absolute perfect product first time out.

So yeah, with enough time and money anything can be fixed or added but that's not the whole story. Heck if it was, Star Citizen would be the worlds most impressive technical achievement since Frontier Elite 2. And it's really not. Even with multiple hollywood film budgets and years of work in overhead.

Put your pom poms down for a minute , i wasn't bitching just that konan said they have done EVERY THING that they could have . You really need to read , think , pause and then type

Shinzah
16-01-2016, 00:38
Put your pom poms down for a minute , i wasn't bitching just that konan said they have done EVERY THING that they could have . You really need to read , think , pause and then type

Oh we're going directly to adhoms instant of rational discussion.

Let me break it down for you. They did everything reasonable with the conditions they had.

diesel97
16-01-2016, 01:30
Oh we're going directly to adhoms instant of rational discussion.

Let me break it down for you. They did everything reasonable with the conditions they had.

You would have thought i "Quoted "you but then again for some reason you think you have to post on every thread after every ones post


They chose not to cut into their and WMD 's profit margin. Calling it reasonable is a matter of opinion. Is it okay for other people to have a opinion ?

Shinzah
16-01-2016, 01:35
You would have thought i "Quoted "you but then again for some reason you think you have to post on every thread after every ones post


They chose not to cut into their and WMD 's profit margin. Calling it reasonable is a matter of opinion. Is it okay for other people to have a opinion ?

If it's their opinion that they did everything reasonable, then your strawman dies here. If it's their opinion they did, then why is it not okay for them (or anyone else) to express that opinion? Why are you defending holding an opinion in general when all that's happened is some people have disagreed with you? This conversation is effectively pointless.

Just like your insults towards me.

Hopefully it dies with the pathetically weak adhoms.

theothermexico
16-01-2016, 02:00
Shin, you confuse me.
You're obviously well educated and knowledgeable on many topics yet you always take the bait and end up very abrasive.
When confronted with discussions like this why don't you take a step back, remove the emotion and just use what you know to beat down any misinformation or false claims?

I know I can't really criticise as I'm no better, but making it personal really removes the punch from the information you present.

Please don't take this as an attack on you, nine out of ten times I agree with what you have to say, but going to such a level does no favours and won't help convince anyone into seeing your viewpoint

Shinzah
16-01-2016, 02:12
Shin, you confuse me.
You're obviously well educated and knowledgeable on many topics yet you always take the bait and end up very abrasive.
When confronted with discussions like this why don't you take a step back, remove the emotion and just use what you know to beat down any misinformation or false claims?

I know I can't really criticise as I'm no better, but making it personal really removes the punch from the information you present.

Please don't take this as an attack on you, nine out of ten times I agree with what you have to say, but going to such a level does no favours and won't help convince anyone into seeing your viewpoint

I just want to know. Because this confuses me.

Some random forum guy on the internet repeatedly insults me. I do nothing but pointedly discuss the topic he was discussing. You come here and accuse me of being emotional/abrasive/whatever. When I've done literally nothing to indicate any emotional involvement besides disappointed in being insulted repeatedly.

Apparently I need to tell people to drop the pom poms and make thinly veiled character assaults to be taken seriously.

Okay. But when I try that I get infringed with a rapid immediacy. Strange.

diesel97
16-01-2016, 02:16
If it's their opinion that they did everything reasonable, then your strawman dies here. If it's their opinion they did, then why is it not okay for them (or anyone else) to express that opinion? Why are you defending holding an opinion in general when all that's happened is some people have disagreed with you? This conversation is effectively pointless.

Just like your insults towards me.

Hopefully it dies with the pathetically weak adhoms.

I never said what SMS did was wrong, maybe you should go back and reread the post especially ones that werent aimed at you

Shinzah
16-01-2016, 02:18
I never said what SMS did was wrong, maybe you should go back and reread the post especially ones that werent aimed at you

I never said you did. I disagreed with your point of view. Something I can do, at any time, in a public forum, until I'm banned from either the forum or from discussing with you in particular.

The communication breakdown here is not because of me.

theothermexico
16-01-2016, 02:20
I just want to know. Because this confuses me.

Some random forum guy on the internet repeatedly insults me. I do nothing but pointedly discuss the topic he was discussing. You come here and accuse me of being emotional/abrasive/whatever. When I've done literally nothing to indicate any emotional involvement besides disappointed in being insulted repeatedly.

Apparently I need to tell people to drop the pom poms and make thinly veiled character assaults to be taken seriously.

Okay. But when I try that I get infringed with a rapid immediacy. Strange.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you were wrong at all in this case, it was just on my mind and this was somewhere that loosely fit what I meant, plus I knew you would see it.

Plus when it's people who spend their whole time on this forum just being negative and rehashing the same points that are constantly being proven wrong I wish the mods would turn a blind eye, just because they don't listen until you point out that their family tree is actually a circle. Those people ruin everything, like the q&a threads.

When I see an example that fits what I mean I'll pm you and see if you can see it in the same way

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-01-2016, 02:52
I think AI should learn how you race there should be a set time they run at each track and car. Then when you race your first race and beat them by three seconds a lap or there faster than you they will adjust. If you race them dirty drive threw them they will do the same only certain cars will. But if you race right they will learn from how you race at different tracks and cars basically run the same lap times brake like you block down the straight like you dive bomb if you do it to much they will start to do the same.

At the end of the day AI could be better than online.

Konan
16-01-2016, 05:11
Yes there is limits on the engine and the devs have found the limits on some things but not all. I could go into a list but it just turns into a big p*ssing match and it helps nobody. But please dont think that there wasn't some dollars & cents decisions going on

At the end of the day they're still a company...not a charity organisation.
I understand the disappointment...been there myself...but all the complaining in the world can't change the fact that the decisions were made so it's really no use going on and on about them.
I believe everyone has the right to their opinion but lately nothing is said that hasn't been said before and it's getting a little old...

Spiny Anteater
16-01-2016, 08:19
I think AI should learn how you race there should be a set time they run at each track and car. Then when you race your first race and beat them by three seconds a lap or there faster than you they will adjust. If you race them dirty drive threw them they will do the same only certain cars will. But if you race right they will learn from how you race at different tracks and cars basically run the same lap times brake like you block down the straight like you dive bomb if you do it to much they will start to do the same.

At the end of the day AI could be better than online.

While I like the idea in theory, and if it could be implemented with no issues is would be awesome, this was also the principle behind FM5's drivatars. And in practice, they turned into a horrible, horrible mess where one slight knock caused the whole race to degenerate into a demolition derby. Trouble was, they were so badly engineered that if two drivatars tangled together, they'd start hitting other cars and the whole thing would spread like a virus. I think the only good thing which came from them was that it led me to look at other games than Forza after about 10 years, and I ended up on PCars. Unfortunately, I only really have time for one game at a time, but switching to PCars is one move I don't regret.

As for PCars' AI, I'm still genuinely impressed. While I know there are issues with the openwheelers and occasionally the karts, the racing with the AI when you're in the tin-tops in genuinely amazing. Had another excellent race last night in the TC2 Escort - I may not have won the race, but trying to hold off two of the Mercs to keep second place was one of those memorably experiences this game can do so well.

Heehaw4x4
16-01-2016, 10:32
They did everything reasonable with the conditions they had.

And how do you know?

I think i'm on to you. Shinzah, reading through your post you refute other people's "opinions" then when they stand by their opinions you then accuse them of insulting you. get a life!

jack1984
16-01-2016, 11:13
You make it sound like SMS decided to not include certain features or not fix certain bugs just because they weren't in the mood or something. It has been explained many times already why things aren't added or fixed anymore. If people don't accept or understand that explanation it's not SMS's fault.

I really believe SMS has the best intentions and tries hard, but at the end of the day only the results count (just like in every business).

Therefore, I can imagine that gamers are not pleased with the PCars scenario:

1) Release a game with major bugs. (Ian even admitted that QA was poor for consoles)
2) Because of 1) the focus is on solving bugs, far more than implementing new features.
3) Even after 7 months the game has still bugs / flaws and promised features will never be implemented in the post release. Although SMS claimed the support of PCars will be comparable with a game like Destiny or at least will be supported for 2 years (http://n4g.com/news/1573504/project-cars-has-two-year-road-map-for-new-tracks-cars-and-modes).
4) Because of 3) SMS mentions that everything that was scrapped from PCars 1 or not well implemented will be implemented, but...then you have to buy PCars 2.

It doesn't take a genius that a scenario like this creates disappointment and distrust, even SMS has the best intentions.

Heehaw4x4
16-01-2016, 11:23
SMS mentions that everything that was scrapped from PCars 1 or not well implemented will be implemented, but...then you have to buy PCars 2.

is this not the reason people was upset at pcars 2 early announcement? they feared pcars 1 improvement would be scrapped. but sms representatives insisted it would not effect pcars1, but guess what... here we are, the most thing gained from that early announcement is "lost of trust"

Mad Al
16-01-2016, 11:32
And how do you know?

I think i'm on to you. Shinzah, reading through your post you refute other people's "opinions" then when they stand by their opinions you then accuse them of insulting you. get a life!

Because he took an active part in the WMD forums..... perspective on how well or badly SMS did, tends to be based on which side of the WMD portal you were looking from and your personal expectations.. I can assure you that looking form the inside out (and having spent a few decades writing code myself) they did as much as could be reasonably expected within the confines of the time, money and resources available. Did they WANT to add more, hell yes.. of course they did.. all developers want more than they generally end up putting out.. but they don't normally tell everyone all the details on what they are trying to do.. if you keep your title under wraps and don't tell people every detail of what you are trying to do, they are a damned sight less likely to be disappointed when it turns out you've had to drop something that is too expensive (in time, effort or money) to do.
On the subject of moving on to PCars2.. I wonder how some people think new products get out into the market place.. do they think they just appear out off thin air, or that the first version is always perfect. Unfortunate fact about developing a product, sometimes you go the wrong way with some of it and end up having to start from scratch to add what appears form the outside to be a simple change.. could SMS do that as a patch, yes, but it would be financial suicide.. it's not like iRacing, rFactor or R3E with a constant stream of income (DLC makes very little), so a new game (with features that were NOT going to be in PC1, as well as those that could have been in and some others that have major improvements) will come out in a couple of years.

Did the consoles appear to get the short end of the stick, when it came to QA, probably, as the WMD members couldn't help at all with testing.. and SMS possibly pushed the boundaries on the console a little far for a first release.