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Alexandre Bardet
12-01-2016, 13:22
Title is self explanatory, so far I don't remember ever being able to come back clean from a moment where the car started to oversteer. I turn the wheels on the opposite direction and try to regain traction with small/quick inputs of acceleration but it doesn't do anything, the car just "has" to keep going and do a full spin. It's frustrating. I strongly feel this is not well represented in the game, it seems so wrong to me, but is it?
This is making long races near impossible for me because I do make my mistakes but to pay them with a full oversteer every time seems unfair...

I don't remember seeing any discussion about this, people haven't had this problem or what? If this has been pointed out, has there been an official acknowledgement or they said something like: "nah this how it's suppose to be"?

danowat
12-01-2016, 13:28
Are you using a pad?

Liquid7394
12-01-2016, 13:29
It is possible to counteract an oversteer.

SlowBloke
12-01-2016, 13:33
Any half decent sim does this alas. You should try Asseto Corsa without the assists or even worse iRacing brrrr...

I and many non aliens struggle with it too.

Although it very much depends on which car your in, what speed your doing and just how much your destabilizing the car (ie hard brake / hard accel)

I would start with an easier car.

Toyota GT86 is low power, predictable and perfectly balanced car and you should be able to catch most oversteer moments without a problem by doing what you are now.

However for more powerful cars you cant expect to push your foot down, throw some opposite lock and all will be well. It can be done but only once you master the car, its tyres, weight distribution etc..

Sloskimo
12-01-2016, 13:40
You could try reducing slow bump on cars very prone to do this, the downside is that it won't turn as eagerly as before, but on some cars this is a good thing (at least for me) That and reducing the stiffness of the rear roll bar makes a lot of cars more drivable for me.

The RUF RGT8 road version for example, the default has very high slow bump settings, causing lots of slides. If you turn slow bump down a lot, the car becomes quite a joy to drive and still turns in very well. Might also want to move brake bias on that one more to the front, so the rear does not step out as much under braking.

Alexandre Bardet
12-01-2016, 13:50
Are you using a pad?

I'm using a PS4 controller. So yes I know it's a lot harder to control braking and acceleration with one, without assists too.

Mahjik
12-01-2016, 13:51
Alexandre, can you provide what controller you are using and if you experience this with all vehicles or just certain ones?


EDIT: You just did... ;)

Can you provide what settings you are using for your controller or are they just default settings?

Default
12-01-2016, 13:52
Every car is different but it is possible to recover if your reaction is fast enough. It is not just about counter steering, throttle/brake control is important too.

danowat
12-01-2016, 14:02
I'm using a controller. So yes I know it's a lot harder to control braking and acceleration with one, without assists too.

That's (pretty much) the problem.

People will tell you it's you, and you just need to "get good", but don't be dejected, it's not you, it's the pad implementation in the game (despite what others say).

You've a number of options, you either try to get used to it, and tune it out in the controller settings and / or car setup, good luck with that using the latest (cold tyre) patch, or get a wheel.

It's unlikely to be improved this late in the games development cycle.

DreamsKnight
12-01-2016, 14:18
i miss the primary information: in turn entry or in turn exit?

hkraft300
12-01-2016, 14:45
That's (pretty much) the problem.

People will tell you it's you, and you just need to "get good", but don't be dejected, it's not you, it's the pad implementation in the game (despite what others say).

You've a number of options, you either try to get used to it, and tune it out in the controller settings and / or car setup, good luck with that using the latest (cold tyre) patch, or get a wheel.

It's unlikely to be improved this late in the games development cycle.

Nobody has said to him yet: "its you" / "get good". Jumping to conclusions before you've seen OP controller settings.
This game drives vastly different depending on controller settings.
That said, with the fine and fast steering inputs required, its not easy or intuitive: just as in experiencing your first oversteer moment in RL.
It can be done on a controller.
From what the OP is saying, it seems its not an overcorrecting issue but a reaction issue. If your controller filtering is too high, steering input will be too slow to catch it ( there's also opposite lock assist but haven't tried it).
The difference between me catching a slide and it getting away from me is reacting quick enough. The fix I've found for this is applying Jack Spade's 66% ffb setting. It gives more tactile feedback from the rear and you find yourself reacting much faster to subtle oversteer moments with throttle and/or steering.
Believe it or not it seems the DS4 receives the same ffb signal from the game.
Its also dependant on what car you drive: I find myself catching oversteer better in Formula and LMP cars than I can in road/GT cars. Could be that I've spent more time in them. Practice, anticipation, familiar with the cars behaviour?

bradleyland
12-01-2016, 15:04
Catching oversteer using a gamepad is tough. Before I got a wheel, I managed to get my controller sensitivity dialed in to a point that I could catch it in most cars, but there are some cars that I just couldn't manage. For example, the RUF RGT-8 and Rt 12 r were nearly impossible. The Audi 90 IMSA was also really tough to catch once it started sliding.

Having said all that, here's a tip that you might not have thought of: when the car begins to oversteer, throttle is as important as steering input. If you slam the throttle closed, the car's weight shifts forward, which moves the center of balance forward toward the point of rotation. This actually increases the rate of rotation, which is not what you want. When you see a slide start, back off the throttle, but not entirely. Once the wheels regain traction, try to balance the throttle to maintain a slow deceleration.

As you have already noticed, this is incredibly difficult with a DS4 controller, because the control inputs are so small in total range of input. IMO, throttle control is actually more difficult on a DS4 than steering. I was able to adjust my steering sensitivity and speed sensitivity to a point that I could catch oversteer with the steering, but I had a very difficult time modulating the throttle properly. The truth is that it is much harder to get good at a racing sim with a gamepad than it is a wheel, because the goal of a racing sim is to accurately simulate a real car. Imagine trying to drive your own car with a DS4 gamepad. Yikes!

kevin kirk
12-01-2016, 15:40
I'm on controller and I have found stabbing the throttle while counter steering 2 or 3 times brings most slides back straight. no traction controll

Alexandre Bardet
12-01-2016, 15:46
i miss the primary information: in turn entry or in turn exit?

Ok im going to give more details then.
I'm trying the Oreca Nissan LMP2 on Spa Francorchamps in a multi-class race, solo mode.
I keep spinning at the first chicanes (Les Combes) which is at the end of the Kemmel Straight. But I should say that since I opened this thread I have made changes on my setup that helped make the car a bit more stable but I'm still struggling.

1) turn in: I kept spinning when turning into the chicane, which I'm almost sure it was because of rear wheels locking up. Right now I am braking in a straight line and then turn in with some care but it feel I'm going too slow.

2) mid turn: Sometimes what still happens happens is that I get wheel spin mid turn, after I come off the brakes and start turning. If the wheels are spinning a bit for whatever reason I just oversteer completely.

3) turn exit: I was spinning off when exiting the chicane when accelerating. I understood that adjusting Differential Acceleration Lock would help and it did, but I still have to exit the chicane with some care, if I go hard the car will want to spin, specially if I have a front wheel on a kurb, but I'm not perfect, I can't not toutch the kurbs everytime.

Anyway I feel the wheels are very unpredictable/unstable when I'm at tight/low speed corners like chicanes are. I can just spin right off by shifting down low gears and turning and the same time.


Can you provide what settings you are using for your controller or are they just default settings?

Steering Deadzone 0
Steering Sensitivity 30

Throttle Deadzone 0
Throttle Sensitivity 50

Brake Deadzone 0
Brake Sensitivity 30

Clutch Deadzone 0
Clutch Sensitiviy - 30

Speed Sensitivity 75
Controller Filtering Sensitivity 30

Force Feedback 100

- Advanced -
Soft Steering Dampening off
Visual Wheel Filtering off
Opposite Lock Help - off

VR-42
12-01-2016, 15:58
Try adding a big heap of rear toe in 5 to 10 will help

Mauler_77
12-01-2016, 16:03
That particular chicane you're referring to can be a real challenge in a lot of cars. I find it to be the hardest turn on that track, partly because you're going so fast at that point and the chicane doesn't look that bad when you approach it but it can really spin a car out if you go in too fast, regardless of your settings/setup. As mentioned, soften the rear sway bar, tweak the bumps, loosen rear suspension etc...

I personally find that corner almost impossible to correct if your car starts to oversteer there, it'a just one of those things. It'll need tuning out of whichever car you're driving and then work on your entry line/speed/braking. Slow in, fast out.

DreamsKnight
12-01-2016, 16:05
these are my errors. hope this can help you:

les combes
1)you had to enter more slow than it seems.
2)the inclination is bad for the tail
3)as general rule: more slow you enter in a chicane and better will be the exit e the total time to do it.
4) the exit is not a full throttle.

for oveersteer in turn in:
a) shift gears (manual) in a good time (after some braking, shift down)
b) more forward the brake bias (this is the best impact, don't forget others thing)
c) reduce the motor-brake (i don't know english name) move the slide to the right, greater number.
d) to enter with brake pressed, lift up gentle the brake during the turn in fase. you can add differential (the second, i don't know the english name) and help in this phase, buit had understeer in other turns (and at spa you must find compromise)

these videos help better than me http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?37837-Screen-by-screen-setup-guide

bradleyland
12-01-2016, 16:26
Anyway I feel the wheels are very unpredictable/unstable when I'm at tight/low speed corners like chicanes are. I can just spin right off by shifting down low gears and turning and the same time.

For what it's worth, you're working with one of the less forgiving classes in the game. LMP cars have a ton of grip, but when they let go, the consequences are huge. Even with a wheel, my catch-rate in LMP cars is pretty low. Also, LMP cars rely heavily on downforce for stability. At low speeds, you have no downforce, so it's very easy to drive past the limits of the mechanical grip available. This requires very careful application of the throttle at low speeds.

The biggest disadvantage of a DS4 controller is that you can't feel the slide. Once you see the slide, it's likely that you're already past the point that the turn can be recovered. This is especially try of LMP cars where everything happens so quickly.

I wish I had more setup advice for you, but I tend to race more GT and touring than I do LMP and open wheel. I also made the jump to a FFB wheel when I realized that I was facing an uphill battle with the DS4 controller when driving the faster cars.


Steering Deadzone – 0
Steering Sensitivity – 30

Throttle Deadzone – 0
Throttle Sensitivity – 50

Brake Deadzone – 0
Brake Sensitivity – 30

Clutch Deadzone – 0
Clutch Sensitiviy - 30

Speed Sensitivity – 75
Controller Filtering Sensitivity – 30

Force Feedback – 100

- Advanced -
Soft Steering Dampening – off
Visual Wheel Filtering – off
Opposite Lock Help - off

These are pretty close to the settings I used to run with the DS4. Keep in mind that the Speed Sensitivity setting you're using means that the steering is much more sensitive in that chicane than it is immediately prior in the high-speed straight. This threw me off quite a bit as well. You pass Eau Rogue where you're inputting full lock because of speed sensitivity, and then you run down Kemmel. The whole while, you're at high speed so you can jam in lots of steering input without consequence, then you get to Les Combes and you scrub tons of speed. Your steering sensitivity ramps up, and you drop the hammer on the throttle a little early. Bam! Spin.

Practice, practice, practice :)

Spa was one of the earlier tracks I set out to learn. I set up a Solo Race with a 2 hr practice session, identical class, and 1 AI driver. I paced the AI driver around the course, gradually ramping the AI skill up, starting at 45. I could have easily passed the AI at many points on 45 skill level, but that's not the point. The point is to keep yourself slow so that you can learn the brake/accel points and gradually increase the pace. It takes discipline, but it worked well for me... Then I got a wheel :)

bradleyland
12-01-2016, 16:28
these are my errors. hope this can help you:

les combes
1)you had to enter more slow than it seems.
2)the inclination is bad for the tail
3)as general rule: more slow you enter in a chicane and better will be the exit e the total time to do it.
4) the exit is not a full throttle.

for oveersteer in turn in:
a) shift gears (manual) in a good time (after some braking, shift down)
b) more forward the brake bias (this is the best impact, don't forget others thing)
c) reduce the motor-brake (i don't know english name) move the slide to the right, greater number.
d) to enter with brake pressed, lift up gentle the brake during the turn in fase. you can add differential (the second, i don't know the english name) and help in this phase, buit had understeer in other turns (and at spa you must find compromise)

these videos help better than me http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?37837-Screen-by-screen-setup-guide

For some reason, I can't like this post, but I agree 100% with the advice.

havocc
12-01-2016, 16:50
buit had understeer in other turns (and at spa you must find compromise)


The problems of running understeery setup will be pouhon and stavelot

Konan
12-01-2016, 17:03
Are you using a pad?

Has nothing to do with that mate...I use a pad and am able to counteract an oversteer...you just have to have what the Germans call:"fingerspitzengefuhl"... Which means no sudden and brutal movements but slight subtle ones...along with what's been said about throttle and braking...

Alexandre Bardet
12-01-2016, 17:42
Ok guys I just tried something for the first time and I'm mind blown... Brake Pressure at 100%

It changed everything. (Oreca LMP2 at Spa) The reason i never tried it and always used it between 70% and 80% is because I use a PS4 controller and I assumed for sure I would lockup the wheels with that much pressure (without using ABS assist or even so), but it's happening something I'm finding to be very curious.
At 70% brake pressure it means the car will need to travel a greater distance before it slows down to a desired speed, but that also means more time pressing the brake button which eventually will cause the wheels to lock up, if using a PS4 controller. At least that's what has been happening to me.
But if set to 100%, the brakes will work much more efficiently and this translates into braking for much, much less time which surprisingly it's not enough time for the wheels to lock up. WOW MINDBLOWN O_O
I always thought I would lock the wheels at even the slightest touch, but apparently it's not the case. The fact that each brake press is so much stronger/effective it also allows me to do subtle trajectory correction if I am going a bit wide and if I feel/think the car wants to start spinning mid turn at the chicanes I just do a few quick hits on the brakes and the car holds like never before. In this situation at 70% or 80% doing quick hits on the brakes would not help, I guess it's because there was not enough pressure to actually stop the wheels from spinning. Now, when I sense the car unstable while cornering I just poke the brakes once or twice and the car settles. Amazing.

kevin kirk
12-01-2016, 17:43
Sounds like your having problems because your trying to use controller settings to adjust the cars setup. Don't do that. At the risk of starting a debate, on controller, its 2 totally different things. It might fix one corner but it will screw up every other corner. Set up your controller settings to where its the way you want it for steering. Things like being able to be smooth, pretty easy to stay in a straight line, and how it reacts to imputs, Things like that. I suggest a high speed sensitivity at first then drop it down the better you get. Then use the cars set up to adjust how it handles. If your oversteering OFF THROTTLE , there are 2 easy and instant ways to fix that. Use a higher brake mapping setting, raise the deccel dif setting.

hkraft300
12-01-2016, 23:00
Alexandre, it will lock the brakes hard at 100% brake pressure. Constantly at almost any speed.
But not while the carbon brakes are cold. Do a few laps warm them up and you'll see they have strong brakes.
However, if you're locking the brakes, they won't heat up and you'll destroy your tyres. The tyre skid sound and smoke is subtle but its there.
I think your speed sensitivity is too high to catch oversteer. At speed, your steering is too limited for the necessary steering angle to catch a slide.
BUT before you change that, maybe you want to turn on opposite lock help.
The Oreca is tricky at that corner and any time the tail steps out. The trick is to catch it early. That's also the hard part, to learn not to unsettle it and anticipate when you have.

ramm21
12-01-2016, 23:23
I've had problems with oversteer when I first started out. What made a difference for me in corner entry was just being smoother. I found I was braking too much, and turning in quickly and at a sharp angle, pretty much chucking the car into the corner. After a while, I learned to create much less of an angle when turning in. This also allows you to carry more speed into the corner. Basically, when you turn you should turn the wheel at a steady pace (i was jerking the wheel at corner entry to turn in), the wheel should be turned to its furthest point at the apex or right before, and steady unwind when exiting the corner (assuming you are taking a constant radius corner). You shouldn't turn your wheel to its furthest point during corner entry

Alexandre Bardet
13-01-2016, 00:14
it will lock the brakes hard at 100% brake pressure. Constantly at almost any speed.

So far I only lock up if I miss a braking point and have no other choice but to keep braking hard for longer than was suppose to.

Markus Ott
13-01-2016, 00:42
There is no solution to your countersteer problem. There was one when we were in beta, but SMS decided pad users should have disadvantages and so they only put modes into the game with slow and unsynced steering input.

JessicaWalter
13-01-2016, 00:55
There is no solution to your countersteer problem. There was one when we were in beta, but SMS decided pad users should have disadvantages and so they only put modes into the game with slow and unsynced steering input.

is that for real? i literally have no room for a wheel setup. i love this game and nothing is gonna alter my affections towards it, but things like that should be made clear since the majority of console owners don't have a steering wheel.

bradleyland
13-01-2016, 00:59
is that for real? i literally have no room for a wheel setup. i love this game and nothing is gonna alter my affections towards it, but things like that should be made clear since the majority of console owners don't have a steering wheel.

There are pad users who reach the leaderboards, but there are far fewer of them. Keep in mind that this is a simulator that just happens to have console ports. To my recollection, this is the most hardcore sim to ever hit a console. This inherently means that the bias of the game design effort will be put in to features and support for wheel users, because while most console users won't have a wheel, most sim users will. It's kind of a weird overlap of user populations that results in a lot of confusion.

JessicaWalter
13-01-2016, 01:04
i agree but i would think the nature of the beast was enough of an advantage to using a wheel. the comment i quoted makes it seem like they purposely made it more difficult for pad users on top of the naturally increased difficulty from a controller.

maxx2504
13-01-2016, 01:27
Hi !

I have the same problem...since the release of PCars.

But the problem is not the controller....the problem is that the ingame steering from the car can't be so fast than the input from a gamepad.

In games like Assetto Corsa (which is obviously a Simulator), rFactor 1+2 and Raceroom Racing Experience you can move the gamepad and the steering wheel does the same, even when the turning speed is ridiculous high. In Pcars, whatever u set in the controls (i tried everything believe me, also set the steering rate in the cars themself) you cannot turn the wheel of the car so fast. So you will never have a chance to counteract an oversteer because of that.

Thats the only reason i hate PCars (otherwise i like it the most)...but when it comes to this point the game just ruined my nerves.

So the quesion is: Why i dont have problems with a Pad in all the other games....but in Pcars ?

Answer: INPUTLAG ;)

bradleyland
13-01-2016, 03:37
i agree but i would think the nature of the beast was enough of an advantage to using a wheel. the comment i quoted makes it seem like they purposely made it more difficult for pad users on top of the naturally increased difficulty from a controller.

Eh, not sure I'd agree with that characterization. I don't know what the feature is, but consider that if they included an "easy mode" for gamepad users, that would put wheel users at a disadvantage. That doesn't fit with the spirit of a simulator. I wouldn't say they "purposely made it more difficult for pad users"; I'd say they declined to include features to make the game easier for pad users. The way PCars works, pad users are treated as equals. You can adjust control parameters, but there is no option to make the game as easy as, for example, Forza.

JessicaWalter
13-01-2016, 03:46
nah, the quote i was responding to implied (unless i misunderstood) that it was made specifically a bit more difficult for pad users and we will never be able to adjust it out with settings. i have no problem with the difficulty but if there's artificial difficulty added to the way the game interprets the input received from a pad i think that's pretty sleazy. it's a post on the previous page.

trust me i would never want an easy mode so please dont put words in my mouth.

edit: this post
Quote Originally Posted by Markus Ott View Post
There is no solution to your countersteer problem. There was one when we were in beta, but SMS decided pad users should have disadvantages and so they only put modes into the game with slow and unsynced steering input.

hkraft300
13-01-2016, 03:59
Hi !

I have the same problem...since the release of PCars.

But the problem is not the controller....the problem is that the ingame steering from the car can't be so fast than the input from a gamepad.

In games like Assetto Corsa (which is obviously a Simulator), rFactor 1+2 and Raceroom Racing Experience you can move the gamepad and the steering wheel does the same, even when the turning speed is ridiculous high. In Pcars, whatever u set in the controls (i tried everything believe me, also set the steering rate in the cars themself) you cannot turn the wheel of the car so fast. So you will never have a chance to counteract an oversteer because of that.

Thats the only reason i hate PCars (otherwise i like it the most)...but when it comes to this point the game just ruined my nerves.

So the quesion is: Why i dont have problems with a Pad in all the other games....but in Pcars ?

Answer: INPUTLAG ;)

Never say never.
I and some gamepad players often catch oversteer using a gamepad. I can do it in the Lotus 98T, LMP cars and Formula cars, with a mix of brake throttle and steering input. Even drifting is possible in cars like the Mono and Rocket Bunny.
Maybe you need to reduce controller filtering and speed sensitivity.



edit: this post
Quote Originally Posted by Markus Ott View Post
There is no solution to your countersteer problem. There was one when we were in beta, but SMS decided pad users should have disadvantages and so they only put modes into the game with slow and unsynced steering input.

IIRC Ian Bell said SMS didn't add any artificial filtering to gamepad controls. Which, as I understand it, means there aren't any filters to aid or hinder the use of gamepads. That puts gamepads at an inherent disadvantage: think of driving a real car with thumbsticks, as has been mentioned a thousand times.
I like the direct control with a lack of filtering. It takes a while to get used to, but I'll have to make do til I get a wheel. Nature of the beast.
Though I'm pretty sure for the sequel they're looking at implementing gamepad filtering to make it easier.

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 04:01
There is no solution to your countersteer problem. There was one when we were in beta, but SMS decided pad users should have disadvantages and so they only put modes into the game with slow and unsynced steering input.

.....forgive me if I step out of line but to comment that the pad has a oversteer problem that has no remedy for either in the controller set up or car setup simply is not true. I catch oversteer every night on a pad. I can adjust how hard it is to catch and how easy it is to catch with controller and car setup both. I can adjust it only with the controller setup, I also can adjust it only thur the car set up. That is not a accurate statement to tell players having trouble with setting up their controller. The very next comment in the thread was a player upset because he now thinks he can never get a good controller set up because the game wont let him.

JessicaWalter
13-01-2016, 04:10
That puts gamepads at an inherent disadvantage

i said that almost verbatim in one of my posts on the previous page and thats why i didn't understand why it would even be necessary to ADD difficulty to a form of input that already was more difficult by default. again, i have ZERO problem with the game or the difficulty. my only gripe was the fact i was (mis)informed that there was ADDED difficulty for some unknown reason. it sounds like it wasn't even true tho, so...on with the race.

edit: and i too have corrected oversteer and caught slides. it was just frustrating to (again, wrongly) hear that pad users were being punished from the gate by design

maxx2504
13-01-2016, 04:21
Hi

@hkraft300:
Sorry but you still don't understand what i mean in my post. Im maybe not so good in explaining things in english. The problem ist that when you move the stick of the gamepad from left to the right and back very very fast the steering wheel (and the wheels themself) are not so fast. They lag behind the gamepad input. And you can CLEARLY see this ingame. I would do a video but i have no webcam to show the stick moves.
I have the following settings (some words mybe incorrect):

deadzone 10
sensivity steering 10
speed sensivity 70
filtering 0
force feedback 0 (i dont need that really)
extended off
steering damper off
visual wheelfiltering off
countersteering off

Sorry to say that but i can't believe that noone ever mentioned that problem. I also tested to setup the gamepad as a custom wheel (both versions, idk the exact names) and custom gamepad. I test other crazy setting like steering sensivity to 50-100 or whatever you can set in the options. Nothing helps.
Also i have the problem when the cars slowly tend to oversteer and the back wheel are loosing grip (white smoke) i try to countersteer but the car oversteer more than i would do nothing on the pad. i defenilty cannot countersteer cars when they already oversteer a bit.
The physic of the game is far behind R3E or Assetto Corsa...im sorry to say that. Don't get me wrong...i tried also to use a steering wheel...but only a Logitech MOMO and i had the same problem. No problem with R3E or AC.

I don't know what the problem is....but its defenitly not me...

Invincible
13-01-2016, 06:01
There is no solution to your countersteer problem. There was one when we were in beta, but SMS decided pad users should have disadvantages and so they only put modes into the game with slow and unsynced steering input.

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. It's as hkraft said:



IIRC Ian Bell said SMS didn't add any artificial filtering to gamepad controls. Which, as I understand it, means there aren't any filters to aid or hinder the use of gamepads. That puts gamepads at an inherent disadvantage: think of driving a real car with thumbsticks, as has been mentioned a thousand times.
I like the direct control with a lack of filtering. It takes a while to get used to, but I'll have to make do til I get a wheel. Nature of the beast.
Though I'm pretty sure for the sequel they're looking at implementing gamepad filtering to make it easier.

The game just hasn't any artificial gamepad filtering. This does NOT mean that SMS intentionally wanted to put gamepad users to a disadvantage. Ian also stated that they could filter the hell out of the gamepad inputs like other games do. But they just did not want to because they wanted it to feel "right" not filtered.

hkraft300
13-01-2016, 06:06
Maybe you should turn force feedback on.
The gamepad receives the same ffb signal as does a wheel, just it responds differently. This allows tactile feedback through the rumble function to your hands, so you respond quicker and have an extra level of feedback besides audio/visual.
Input lag is a different discussion: input lag visually can be introduced by your system, your TV/monitor as well as controller.

Markus Ott
13-01-2016, 11:27
Ok, so here is what happened, as I was part of the testing of gamepad input and knew what all the F1 menu options we had in the beta ment.

We tried to work on the gamepad input. Back then we had a developer menu where you could change hidden options the normal user can't see anymore, which is quite funny because those are the distinctive differences betweens the modes, but the user doesn't get a real idea about them anymore. The main difference lies in the steering speed values of which there are six for different situations. The speed at which the steering wheels of the cars react to inputs. I don't want to get too deep into it, but it soon turned out that all three modes the game offered were not good enough and pretty slow. The problems encountered were the same as were when the game was released, countersteering was too hard and the input was too twitchy. The little group of testers got some ideas how to rework the complete system, but all SMS did was fiddeling around with the values of the hidden steering speed values, but they wouldn't take over our ideas. Well, they got the bill by the many complains when the game was released from the gamepad users.

All in all my settings in beta were snyced with my gamepad input, which means a 1:1 input. SMS decided against it because of they didn't trust gamepad users enough to steer the race cars the right way. They thought too erratic movements from side to side are unrealistic (which is quite right tho), and instead of letting pad users learn how to drive the right way and get the maximum out of it in the end they just slowed the input down, which means the steering input is always lagging behind your actual inputs. That's why countersteering is a pain in the ass, the steering is reacting to slow from one side to another. It has nothing to do with filters and such. They on purpose force gamepad users onto a "lagging behind" system, something every developer of a racing game tries to get rid off for wheel users for obvious reasons. They also opted against a speed slider to let users adjust it.

Here is how gamepad driving looked with my settings in beta. One of the hardest to control cars on the edge dancing around Bathurst. You be the judge if I am right or wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsRRKKlDpaE

Jaroslav Turna
13-01-2016, 11:33
Yet there are people even in this forum, who find the steering too fast (which I do kinda agree) ........ So same as on WMD Marcus - no, you are not right. You stated your OPINION ... that's all. It is also not truth, that we were fiddling only with numbers (btw. the whole system has changed so we even can fiddle with those numbers). And I still believe (and tried many times even after PCARS was released) our gamepad input is still miles ahead of AC and others (including Forza and GT which are more comfortable, but they kinda drive instead of you).

Also SMS never decided pad users should have disadvantages. They just should have NO ADVANTAGE.

Diamond_Eyes
13-01-2016, 11:42
......in the end they just slowed the input down, which means the steering input is always lagging behind your actual inputs. That's why countersteering is a pain in the ass, the steering is reacting to slow from one side to another.....

The penny has now dropped!! Your insight has cleared up a lot of issues for me when using my controller. Thx for your insight!!

"Pain in the ass" is too polite & understating things a little :mad:

Jaroslav Turna
13-01-2016, 11:44
The penny has now dropped!! Your insight has cleared up a lot of issues for me when using my controller. Thx for your insight!!

"Pain in the ass" is too polite & understating things a little :mad:

Yes, the steering speed is lowered, because you can move gamepad from lock to lock much faster then steering wheel in real life. It is may be PITA for you, but it is just as it is in RL.

Also lag usually refers to delay .. there is no delay in our gamepad input. The wheel starts turning immediately, just the turning speed is limited (not much tbh.).

Marcus was always very loud with his opinions. Unfortunately that does not make him right.

could_do_better
13-01-2016, 12:10
And consequently the faster than real life movement achievable on a pad is the reason tires appear to overheat for pad users. Its a no win situation really allow the pad users fast lock to lock and break the simulation elements, slow it down too much and without a wide spread education program people will perceive lag. The real answer is a good pad setup and slow smooth movements, but I can imagine this is incredibly hard on a pad especially when people are used to a more digital use of the sticks.

FWIW: Way back in my BBC micro days Geoff Crammond's Revs allowed quite nice driving even on a keyboard by doing two quite neat things:

1) There was a small indicator line drawn across the steering wheel rim to show steering angle. Not so necessary today with animated cockpits and can be seen on the telemetry screen in other views.
2) The space bar was used for a fast steering. That mean you could have fine control of steering angle by tapping 'A' and 'D' but for tighter corners your could get the steering lock on and off quicker with the space bar pressed at the same time. From memory it use to work really well. I'm definately not a pad player but could a button be employed to give something similar? Slower fine control most of the time and a faster response when really needed?

copes24
13-01-2016, 12:22
I'm a wheel user but it sounds like pad players are at a disadvantage if they're having their inputs slowed. They already have to contend with the lack of accuracy an analogue stick provides. Wouldn't the better accuracy of a wheel vs faster inputs of a pad be more balanced?

havocc
13-01-2016, 12:27
I need to post this again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDtwTqBwqwk

JessicaWalter
13-01-2016, 12:48
Wouldn't the better accuracy of a wheel vs faster inputs of a pad be more balanced?

it might be better balanced (although that's debatable) but it would be at the expense of accuracy and realism. we'd be able to control the car in ways not possible in real life. i don't have a problem with the way it is as long as there aren't artificial disadvantages given to pad users just for the sake of it

bradleyland
13-01-2016, 13:51
I'm a wheel user but it sounds like pad players are at a disadvantage if they're having their inputs slowed. They already have to contend with the lack of accuracy an analogue stick provides. Wouldn't the better accuracy of a wheel vs faster inputs of a pad be more balanced?

How fast can you turn your wheel lock-to-lock? Would you consider it a fair and realistic scenario if a gamepad user could turn from lock to lock in less than 0.5 seconds? Even if you could apply real life steering input at a rate that turns lock-to-lock in 0.5s, what modern automobile has a steering rack that could physically turn the wheels that fast? The torque required would be absurd.

I don't know about you, but there are two things that prevent me from catching oversteer: 1) not being quick enough to dial in opposite lock, and 2) not catching it early enough (which is tangentially related to deficiency #1).

As clarified, this isn't putting gamepad users at a disadvantage, this is limiting the steering input to realistic values, as not to give gamepad users an advantage. The disadvantage gamepad users have is that they can't feel oversteer happening. That's inherent to a gamepad though. There's simply no mechanism for providing feedback through the stick. Whether that should be compensated for is a matter of opinion, but characterizing it as SMS intentionally putting gamepad users at a disadvantage is disingenuous at best.

bmanic
13-01-2016, 15:33
Indeed. Gamepad users don't have the awesome advantage of Force Feedback. When I sense I might be about to have a nasty oversteer moment, guess what I do? I let go of the wheel. Boom. Oversteer moment mostly corrected by itself (this requires a fast enough wheel and low input/output latency so it may not be possible to achieve on a console).

hkraft300
13-01-2016, 15:36
Not entirely true.
If a car is a little slidey and I'm having trouble catching it, I put in Spade's 66% set.
More SoP feedback makes the controller rumble sooner/more with the tail end.
That subtle feedback is enough to react to a skatey situation :)
But its nothing like a proper ffb wheel!

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 16:25
I'm just having a different experience with this game. Infact, after decades of playing racing games with controller. I would say this is close to being the best feeling game on controller I have ever played, Shift 2 being the worst. 0 deadzone 0 sensitivity and changed with every car between 75, 80, 85 speed sensitivity. Then using the cars diff setting to adjust more or less turn in according to track and car. The range of diff settings is pretty wide so you shouldn't have a turning problem. Now to my point. For it to be so hard for you guys to set your controller to make game play fun. You might have game features working against each other preventing it. You might have your FOV to low making the corners sharper than they really are. I use 65 which seems to be right on the edge of the corner beginning to be made sharper.. FOV and speed sensitivity are 2 settings that when one changes,you need to adjust the other. You might have your seat to close to the dash board making the corner seem sharper than it really is. You might have turned your opposite lock on, didn't like it and turned it off. When you do that you have to scroll thur controller presets to reset controller setting. If you don't it will still feel like the opposite lock help option is still on. Even when the advanced options are off. Camera movement setting might be throwing your timing off. Something I had a problem with. If for some very odd reason you still cant find a good controller setting then bite the bullet and turn tire wear off. Pick what tire you like better and try that.

havocc
13-01-2016, 16:35
I don't understand you guys, really, this game is quite good with controller, have you tried a super road car like LaFerrari in Assetto Corsa on cold tyres with latest tyre model on a controller? Totally impossible, you barely touch the stick and the car spins like it's on ice...

hkraft300
13-01-2016, 16:47
Agreed
This game is hands down the best racer on controller.
The game isn't driving for me.
I'm in direct control.

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 17:04
I don't understand you guys, really, this game is quite good with controller, have you tried a super road car like LaFerrari in Assetto Corsa on cold tyres with latest tyre model on a controller? Totally impossible, you barely touch the stick and the car spins like it's on ice...
......it has got to be they don't understand how to set it up or how its suppose to feel and act. Maybe its a controller update missing or something. I'm still in shock that a WMD member told them there is no remedy for their controller problem of catching oversteer while I was watching a reply of me drifting down bathhurst in a gt3 car with cold hard tires.

Umer Ahmad
13-01-2016, 17:08
"Then using the cars diff setting to adjust more or less turn in according to track and car."

^this

Even with my G27 some of the road cars spin out on me. An FFB wheel is no "magic cure", nor is gamepad a fatal device.

I regularly "install understeer" into many cars in this game. For me, avoiding spins to begin with is a large factor. I'd rather have a safer/predictable car (2:11 Road America) whose boundary i understand.

Rear toe-in, diff settings, brake bias, tyre pressure & suspension changes...there are many engineering/tuning areas to explore. I'll admit right now i do NOT get along with many of Casey's default setups, too "loose" for me.

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 17:15
You certainly can make the car have more off throttle turn in by lowering decc diff. Raise the decc dif setting and it will have less turn in off throttle into the corner.

bradleyland
13-01-2016, 17:29
"Then using the cars diff setting to adjust more or less turn in according to track and car."

^this

Even with my G27 some of the road cars spin out on me. An FFB wheel is no "magic cure", nor is gamepad a fatal device.

I regularly "install understeer" into many cars in this game. For me, avoiding spins to begin with is a large factor. I'd rather have a safer/predictable car (2:11 Road America) whose boundary i understand.

Rear toe-in, diff settings, brake bias, tyre pressure & suspension changes...there are many engineering/tuning areas to explore. I'll admit right now i do NOT get along with many of Casey's default setups, too "loose" for me.

Exactly! Even the pros tend to prefer a chassis setup with slight understeer, and predictable oversteer available on-throttle. This is not an easy thing to achieve, but if you want to set consistent, fast lap times, you're better off with a little understeer. Come in a little hot, and the condition is usually resolved by throttle-lift. Come in a little hot with an oversteer-biased setup and lift is just going to get you in trouble.

Understeer-bias: easier to be consistent and fast.

Oversteer-bias: a little more fun in the right setting, but tougher to manage.

cmch15
13-01-2016, 17:58
You CAN counteract oversteer with a controller, normally just by reduced/half throttle and just releasing the thumbstick, not necessarily feeding in opposite lock as because of the short throw of a thumbstick will result in overcorrection.

I found that too much filtering would cause a delay and reduced ability to counter oversteer.

This is a video from before I had a wheel, "real assists". Plenty of slight oversteer corrections (watch the wheel) and a bigger one down into the Dipper. Some cars are harder to catch of course but can normally be tuned out in the car setup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JUL66sBhOk

madmax2069
13-01-2016, 18:01
if you have your speed sensitivity set too high it will prevent you from obtaining enough wheel lock to catch the oversteer, I do believe one of the advanced option oposite lock help will counteract having a high speed sensitivity setting so you can get enough wheel lock during a slide. But if you catch it wrong you'll end up in a tank slapper.

bradleyland
13-01-2016, 18:11
if you have your speed sensitivity set too high it will prevent you from obtaining enough wheel lock to catch the oversteer, I do believe one of the advanced option oposite lock help will counteract having a high speed sensitivity setting so you can get enough wheel lock during a slide. But if you catch it wrong you'll end up in a tank slapper.

That was my biggest problem on a controller. I flat out couldn't get around some courses in the RUF RGT-8. Any oversteer ended up in a tank-slapper because I couldn't feel the rhythm of the slide and correction. It's very hard to get ahead of a tank slapper by sight alone.

All this comes back to a simple conclusion for me: You drive a real car with a steering wheel and pedals. Any reasonably accurate simulator is going to be very difficult to drive with a gamepad, because a real car would be very difficult to drive with a gamepad.

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 18:13
if you have your speed sensitivity set too high it will prevent you from obtaining enough wheel lock to catch the oversteer, I do believe one of the advanced option oposite lock help will counteract having a high speed sensitivity setting so you can get enough wheel lock during a slide. But if you catch it wrong you'll end up in a tank slapper...... I'm getting a different feeling, the lower the speed sensitivity the more the car will jerk back the other way having to much opposite lock . Speed sensitivity is my friend when catching over steer. The more the easier it is.

madmax2069
13-01-2016, 18:31
..... I'm getting a different feeling, the lower the speed sensitivity the more the car will jerk back the other way having to much opposite lock . Speed sensitivity is my friend when catching over steer. The more the easier it is.

Thats because with a lower speed sensitivity you can easily go over the amount needed (over correction) to catch the oversteer which will initiate the start of a tank slapper. Usually an issue with people that tap steer or go full lock constantly instead of using the thumbstick as a Analog device and proportionally move the thumbstick.

With a low speed sensitivity you can over correct a oversteer, with a higher speed sensitivity setting you might not be given enough steering angle to catch the oversteer.

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 18:36
Thats because with a lower speed sensitivity you can easily go over the amount needed (over correction) to catch the oversteer which will initiate the start of a tank slapper.

With a low speed sensitivity you can over correct a oversteer, with a higher speed sensitivity setting you might not be given enough steering angle to catch the oversteer......do you use any dead zone, or controller filtering?

madmax2069
13-01-2016, 18:44
.....do you use any dead zone, or controller filtering?

I use zero steering deadzone, and use 20 controller filtering

Mad Al
13-01-2016, 18:49
I use zero steering deadzone, and use 20 controller filtering

and most importantly.. which mode (otherwise it's meaningless to quote other numbers!)

madmax2069
13-01-2016, 19:06
and most importantly.. which mode (otherwise it's meaningless to quote other numbers!)

I wasn't asked for other numbers or any other settings.

But anyways mode 2

Mad Al
13-01-2016, 19:10
I wasn't asked for other numbers or any other settings.

But anyways mode 2

Try putting all the same numbers in in each mode.. they will feel and react differently.. so it's really quote all or quote none (and that was half the issue with people throwing numbers about at release..)

madmax2069
13-01-2016, 19:12
Try putting all the same numbers in in each mode.. they will feel and react differently.. so it's really quote all or quote none (and that was half the issue with people throwing numbers about at release..)

I wasn't throwing numbers around out of thin air, I was answering specific questions for two settings not anything else.

If he wanted too know about what settings I run with he could have asked, but he just asked about two settings.

maxx2504
13-01-2016, 20:44
Hi !

And some people still don't understand the problem...

If it would be possible to steer so fast like in AC or R3E (which have in my opinion the best settings for wheel or gamepad), it would be much easier to countersteer. Because the big thing is you cannot be so sensitive like you use a steering wheel (even in slow corners because the speed sensivity dont work when you are slow). You only have maybe a half inch of movement on the stick and this is around maybe 450 to 900 degrees on a steeringwheel.

I only see these solutions for this problem:

- Reprogramm the speed sensivity so it works from 1 to 300km/h (like in R3E), not only when the car is getting faster
- Give the cars a steering lock from ~7 to ~32 degrees, that would help the gamepad users a lot
- Patch the input lag and make the steering more direct for gamepad users

Either SMS won't do this or can't do this ? An official statement would be great...

I say again...i love project cars...but i would love it more with these things ;)



maxx

JessicaWalter
13-01-2016, 21:06
apparently there is no applied input lag. the input lag that's there is from natural occurences and cannot be patched oyt. it's like if i have a sprinkler in my front yard, i can make it rain (adding input lag, which is not the case), but if it's raining naturally i cannot remove the rain with a patch.

and as far as steering more precise, that just takes practice. it's like in fps games. keep upping the sensitivity and you get used to it and you can move your cursor and turn around a lot quicker, the only difference us that your going to a specific angle of turn, but it's very similar to going to a specific part of the screen. you'll get used to where you need to be for how much turn you want.

kevin kirk
13-01-2016, 21:19
Hi !

And some people still don't understand the problem...

If it would be possible to steer so fast like in AC or R3E (which have in my opinion the best settings for wheel or gamepad), it would be much easier to countersteer. Because the big thing is you cannot be so sensitive like you use a steering wheel (even in slow corners because the speed sensivity dont work when you are slow). You only have maybe a half inch of movement on the stick and this is around maybe 450 to 900 degrees on a steeringwheel.

I only see these solutions for this problem:

- Reprogramm the speed sensivity so it works from 1 to 300km/h (like in R3E), not only when the car is getting faster
- Give the cars a steering lock from ~7 to ~32 degrees, that would help the gamepad users a lot
- Patch the input lag and make the steering more direct for gamepad users

Either SMS won't do this or can't do this ? An official statement would be great...

I say again...i love project cars...but i would love it more with these things ;)



maxx.....call me crazy but I swear my speed sensitivity affects all speeds. It acts more like a steering lock than a speed sensitivity setting. Higher settings wont let me turn at low speed tight corners just like it does at high speed corners. I have no lag as long as my controller filtering is all the way down and no dead zone. As soon as I even move the controller filtering up to 10 or 20 I get a lot of delay or lag.

maxx2504
13-01-2016, 22:05
Hi !

You people think im dumb hm ? Sorry but i cannot discuss this problem with ignorant people that dont understand me.

I say this again i have no problems in AC and R3E. The steering is much better with the gamepad like in pcars. Either im dumb or you people. Sorry but this discussion definitly begin to suck because you don't get me serious...


Im out...have a nice day...not !

hkraft300
14-01-2016, 01:45
Hi !

You people think im dumb hm ? Sorry but i cannot discuss this problem with ignorant people that dont understand me.

Fails to understand input lag is a factor of outside influences,
Declares everyone dumb and ignorant... :applause:

Sankyo
14-01-2016, 11:59
Hi !

You people think im dumb hm ? Sorry but i cannot discuss this problem with ignorant people that dont understand me.

I say this again i have no problems in AC and R3E. The steering is much better with the gamepad like in pcars. Either im dumb or you people. Sorry but this discussion definitly begin to suck because you don't get me serious...


Im out...have a nice day...not !
Nobody said they think you're dumb, and if you didn't get the answer you were looking for it doesn't mean people are ignorant. People are trying to help, so no reason to attack them if the answer isn't to your liking.

Sankyo
14-01-2016, 12:26
Hi !

And some people still don't understand the problem...

If it would be possible to steer so fast like in AC or R3E (which have in my opinion the best settings for wheel or gamepad), it would be much easier to countersteer. Because the big thing is you cannot be so sensitive like you use a steering wheel (even in slow corners because the speed sensivity dont work when you are slow). You only have maybe a half inch of movement on the stick and this is around maybe 450 to 900 degrees on a steeringwheel.
How do AC and R3E handle controller input? Can you steer faster with a controller than with a steering wheel? Or do they do something different to help countersteering?


I only see these solutions for this problem:

- Reprogramm the speed sensivity so it works from 1 to 300km/h (like in R3E), not only when the car is getting faster
Could you elaborate? What do you mean with "speed sensivity [..] works from 1 to 300km/h"? IMO pCARS's speed sensitivity works over the full speed range, which may mean that it is 1 for low speeds.


- Give the cars a steering lock from ~7 to ~32 degrees, that would help the gamepad users a lot
The cars in pCARS have the steering lock that the real cars have, because the game is aimed at realism.


- Patch the input lag and make the steering more direct for gamepad users
There is no input lag, only filtering to make sure that steering cannot be done faster with a controller than would be possible in a real car with a steering wheel.

Plage
14-01-2016, 14:30
You can counteract an oversteer but how well is depending on the car and the setting (setup). What I found is that in many cases the reactions (inputs) needed doesn't seem to be consistent in the direction of that you can catch a car in one situation just fine while in a comparable one the car just won't really do what you'd expect. In some of this cases (much depending on the chosen car) you can literally feel a change of the feedpack forces during a fast transition close to the center position which feels a bit like the grip level gets reset at this point or something the like which makes a smooth transition basically impossible and throw you off each time it happens. Don't know if this is even noticable with a pad but with my G25 settings I've to turn just about 180 to get full lock from one side to the other which allows me to transition quite fast and there it's really noticable.

Sometimes after I've done such a fast transition (and the G25 has made a horrible noise which each time makes me fear it'll broke now) the centering of the wheel is off a bit. I at first thought that's a mechanical problem of the wheel but that doesn't seems to be the case as it's fine (perfectly centered) again after returning to the pits, a restart or what ever which makes me guess that at least with the settings I've chosen (admittedly a little weird with just ~222 full turning radius in the profiler and the game while driving with turn ratios around 8-9 in the car setups) the game doesn't seems to be able to keep up with the input speed, signals or what ever it is. Anybody else noticed something like that?

Markus Ott
14-01-2016, 14:47
How do AC and R3E handle controller input? Can you steer faster with a controller than with a steering wheel? Or do they do something different to help countersteering?

AC has zero deadzone. And with zero I really mean zero. AC has a much better and suitable gamma curve for what pCARS calls steering sensitivity, which makes it easy to control the cars around the centre, leading to less twitchy behaviour for the fast cars. Because of the better gamma curve you need less speed sensitivity which gives you more room to play around. AC has a speed slider which enables you to get 1:1 steering and full control of the car.



Could you elaborate? What do you mean with "speed sensivity [..] works from 1 to 300km/h"? IMO pCARS's speed sensitivity works over the full speed range, which may mean that it is 1 for low speeds.

That's partly right. We have six different speed values, three for low speeds, three for high speeds. But if I remember right there was a certain minimum speed value before the low speed values start to work. Not 100% sure anymore.



There is no input lag, only filtering to make sure that steering cannot be done faster with a controller than would be possible in a real car with a steering wheel.

Well, that may be true for road cars. For fast cars the steering speeds are too slow, not only speaking about catching slides, even for changing direction through a chicane it is sometimes too slow.

hkraft300
14-01-2016, 15:21
Well, that may be true for road cars. For fast cars the steering speeds are too slow, not only speaking about catching slides, even for changing direction through a chicane it is sometimes too slow.

You reckon?
I can't bloody sneeze while my thumb is on the stick without putting a Formula/LMP car into the wall.
Too slow he says!

I've had to increase filtering to slow it down further. Despite my opinion I'd make for a good neurosurgeon with the precision I've trained my fingers to playing this game lol

kevin kirk
14-01-2016, 16:53
I guess my comment pissed him off. Maybe my controller setup of no dead zone no steering sensitivity and a bit more speed sensitivity makes it feel so much different and act different. I was being honest, It really does feel like the speed sensitivity acts like a steering lock that works the same low speed and high speed with no dead zone and no steering sensitivity. I think I will just let you guys handle the advice from now on.

Markus Ott
14-01-2016, 16:55
Steering speed has nothing to do with the the steering gamma curve of steering sensitivity. High speed sensitivity for me ist just a workaround to deal a little bit with the too aggressive steering wheel movement around the centre.

Steering speed = how fast the the steering follows your inputs. unchangeable by the user.
Steering sensitivity = gamma curve which puts exponential behaviour to the input. In pCARS you need to use around 0-10 as the gamma curve doesn't provide enough room around the centre to be precise with fast race cars.
Speed sensitivity = maximum steering becoming less the faster you go. Same like a variable steering lock.

Seems like people are still totally confused as to what the gamepad options do and what not. I requested to rename some of the options and SMS to put explanations into the game so people know what they are fiddeling around with.