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Oubaas
12-01-2016, 18:17
I grew up four miles from the track at Watkins Glen. You could hear the cars from our house when they were practicing or racing. My Dad was at the first race in Watkins Glen, when they still raced in the streets, and many others over the years. I experienced my first lap at the track when I was 3-years-old, sitting beside my father in his 1954 Jaguar XK120. I have turned many more laps there myself with various vehicles. My late cousin competed there in Formula Atlantic.

In the 1970s, I was there for nearly every race held, from Super Vees to Can Am to the United States Grand Prix. I continued to attend races when I could in the 1980s and 1990s. I met many of the legendary drivers in the Kendall garage and the pits. I knew many of the old time personalities associated with racing at the Glen, including the late, great Arthur Richards, who was a personal friend. My family knew the Argetsingers. I have witnessed the spectacle of "The Bog". I was there when Francois Cevert was tragically killed and I was there when J. D. McDuffie died.

In short, racing at Watkins Glen has been sort of a family tradition since the beginning.

With that in mind, I'd like to point out that the NASCAR loop is not part of the Grand Prix course. If you want to keep the current version, that's up to you.

But I'd like to request that you at least cone it off and create a version of the Grand Prix circuit that is accurate. Perhaps a "Historic Grand Prix" version. It should not include the NASCAR loop, and you should not be penalized for going straight there instead of through the loop.

If you really want to do some historic track modeling, you could even put in the weird little chicane that they added after the Esses around 1975.

But my preferred version is before that, no circa 1975 chicane after the Esses. To recreate the accurate, classic Grand Prix version of the track, just remove the NASCAR loop. That didn't even exist until NASCAR Winston Cup and Bud at the Glen showed up, as far as I know. When it did first appear, the United States Grand Prix and Formula One racing at the Glen were long gone. I was out of the country a lot during those years, but the first time that I saw it was at a Winston Cup race.

You'd be doing an old man a favor if you correct it. It aggravates me every time I'm penalized for driving the correct route. And I need it fixed so I can really enjoy my Formula Ford racing at the Glen.

Thanks for a Great Racing Title!

Oubaas :)

lollygag
12-01-2016, 18:24
I'm sure this is what was licensed to us. And its probably accurate for this layout/configuration as I think it had to be approved by the owners.

Oubaas
12-01-2016, 18:42
The current owners probably weren't even born yet when there was a "Watkins Glen GP" track. I'm not even sure who owns it these days. Last I knew, it was Corning, Inc. But I think I remember my brother telling me that they sold it.

The last United States Grand Prix (East) of Formula One at Watkins Glen was held in 1980. It was won by Alan Jones in the Williams Ford. Jones never once went through the NASCAR loop in that race, because it did not exist at that time.

This may very well be what was licensed to you, but it is certainly NOT the "Watkins Glen GP" course.

Would it really be that hard to fix? Just remove the penalty for going the right way and delete the loop. Or offer a correct variant. Otherwise, it's certainly NOT "Watkins Glen GP".

Schnizz58
12-01-2016, 18:48
Change the name to Watkins Glen Grand Prix with Inner Loop (http://racingcircuits.info/north-america/usa/watkins-glen.html). Problem solved.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
12-01-2016, 18:58
What is the NASCAR loop? The small "Inner Loop" before the long right hander (Outer Loop)? As far as I can figure out currently there are three layouts in use, the short, the GP and the "GP with inner loop" (in use since 1992). At most there's a small misnomer in the naming, not calling it "Grand Prix with Inner Loop" or something, and missing the older GP layout.

Is the layout without the Inner Loop used by anything anymore? IndyCar, TUSC, CTSCC, F2000, all the post 2010 races on the long layout I've seen seem to exclusively use the Inner Loop variant. =/

Schnizz58
12-01-2016, 19:04
Is the layout without the Inner Loop used by anything anymore? IndyCar, TUSC, CTSCC, F2000, all the post 2010 races on the long layout I've seen seem to exclusively use the Inner Loop variant. =/
I've been trying to determine the answer to this also. I'm trying to remember if they use the inner loop for 6 hrs of The Glen and I'm pretty sure they do.

Side note: there is a beer festival there in October. Meet you there?

Oubaas
12-01-2016, 19:24
What is the NASCAR loop? The small "Inner Loop" before the long right hander (Outer Loop)?

The "NASCAR Loop", as it was known for quite awhile after they first created it, is officially known as the "Inner Loop" these days. It was not a part of the track's 1971 to 1980 "GP" layout, which is the full track with "Boot" minus the "Inner Loop". From 1975 to 1980, they did add a small chicane right after the Esses, but there was still no "Inner Loop". In the days of actual Grand Prix racing at Watkins Glen, you came down the back straight and went directly into the sweeping "Outer Loop" turn. There has been no Grand Prix or "GP" racing at Watkins Glen since long before they created the "Inner Loop". That was a modification brought about by the arrival of NASCAR Winston Cup racing, long after Grand Prix racing was gone. In essence, I would not be penalized for ignoring the "Inner Loop" and going straight on the true "GP" layout.

kevin kirk
12-01-2016, 19:26
are you guys taking about the bus stop? Its called the bus stop, just like the section like that at Daytona is called the bus stop. Its shaped like a bus stop. I remember the tudor guys going thur it but they called it the bus stop.

3800racingfool
12-01-2016, 19:27
I've been trying to determine the answer to this also. I'm trying to remember if they use the inner loop for 6 hrs of The Glen and I'm pretty sure they do.

Yes, the SHotG currently uses the variant with the inner loop.



are you guys taking about the bus stop? Its called the bus stop, just like the section like that at Daytona is called the bus stop. Its shaped like a bus stop. I remember the tudor guys going thur it but they called it the bus stop.

It's a bus-stop chicane however it's (un)officially called the "inner loop". Some people call it "the bus stop" however due to the type of chicane it is.

McKiernan
12-01-2016, 19:41
So apart from the name is there anything else wrong? I think I can live with a slight misnomer, I mean we have Azure Circuit at least Watkins Glen GP is pretty close :D

John Hargreaves
12-01-2016, 19:43
I thought our version of the Glen was a fairly modern one, not a historic version? It does suit the historic cars well, but I thought that was because the feel of the track hasn't changed massively since the 60s/70s.

I know that Doug Arnau, one of the SMS physics gurus, has many thousands of laps under his belt at the real track, so it must have had his approval.

Having said that, if there was any chance to get a historic version with all the vintage ads/stands/trackside dressing we have in the game now I'd be in there like a shot.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
12-01-2016, 20:01
The "NASCAR Loop", as it was known for quite awhile after they first created it, is officially known as the "Inner Loop" these days. It was not a part of the track's 1971 to 1980 "GP" layout, which is the full track with "Boot" minus the "Inner Loop". From 1975 to 1980, they did add a small chicane right after the Esses, but there was still no "Inner Loop". In the days of actual Grand Prix racing at Watkins Glen, you came down the back straight and went directly into the sweeping "Outer Loop" turn. There has been no Grand Prix or "GP" racing at Watkins Glen since long before they created the "Inner Loop". That was a modification brought about by the arrival of NASCAR Winston Cup racing, long after Grand Prix racing was gone. In essence, I would not be penalized for ignoring the "Inner Loop" and going straight on the true "GP" layout.The people running it still seem to be calling the long layouts (both with and without the Inner Loop) the Grand Prix layout whether there's any Grand Prix racing held there or not, so there's not much that SMS can do. I guess the best solution would be to change the name to Grand Prix with Inner Loop. Or even better, doing that and adding a third layout where you can driver straight and calling that the Grand Prix. =)

Oubaas
12-01-2016, 20:02
So apart from the name is there anything else wrong? I think I can live with a slight misnomer, I mean we have Azure Circuit at least Watkins Glen GP is pretty close :D

No, apart from it not actually being the "GP" layout, it's a beautiful representation of the real track. When I hammer up through the Esses, I feel like I'm really back at Watkins Glen. And I don't mind if they give us the modern layout. But if they'd just open the track file, highlight the "Inner Loop" and press the delete key, and take out the penalty then save it, I'd be much happier. Maybe they could rename it "Classic Watkins Glen GP" and then the modern version could still be used for modern events.

But when I come flying down the straight, my ingrained instincts instilled by being there in real life tell me to set up for the "Outer Loop" curve. At the last minute, I remember the new "Inner Loop". Panic ensues. If I go straight, I'm penalized. It's frustrating and makes say bad words. And it's not truly the "GP" layout that was used with Formula One.


:biggrin-new:

Lukas Macedo
12-01-2016, 20:36
Interesting discussion. It would be cool to have the GP layout as well. A map always helps.
225225

bradleyland
12-01-2016, 23:19
Speaking of maps...

This is what is called the "Grand Prix" layout:

http://i.imgur.com/IVt3Bte.png

This is what is called the "Grand Prix with Inner Loop" layout:

http://i.imgur.com/QEivv5T.png

RacingCircuits.info has some good tools for viewing the various layouts:

http://racingcircuits.info/north-america/usa/watkins-glen.html#.VpVuNzbYi0c

YourManAdrian
13-01-2016, 00:25
I thought our version of the Glen was a fairly modern one, not a historic version? It does suit the historic cars well, but I thought that was because the feel of the track hasn't changed massively since the 60s/70s.

I know that Doug Arnau, one of the SMS physics gurus, has many thousands of laps under his belt at the real track, so it must have had his approval.

Having said that, if there was any chance to get a historic version with all the vintage ads/stands/trackside dressing we have in the game now I'd be in there like a shot.

The inner loop was added in 1992 I believe. The circuit has been this way for over 2 decades. I guess the long layout should be called "Watkins Glen Long Course" though since the old Watkins Glen was the GP layout. Minor detail but I suppose OP has a point.

Shinzah
13-01-2016, 00:48
The Inner Loop was added in 1992 after the death of J.D McDuffie in 1991.

Furthermore, OP is hilariously wrong. The course is so named because of Indycar's multiple running of Grand Prix's on that circuit layout. It is not misnamed in any way, nor is the circuit "Wrong". The full length of the straight hasn't been used since before 1993. Anyone who knows the circuit as well as the OP claims to, would have known that the modern GP layout is named after the multiple visits from Champ/Indycar.

This is not the F1 circuit as the F1 circuit was nearly entirely destroyed following the pre-NASCAR and after CART stopped running on the circuit in 1981.

The current track model is not a historic track model.

The races run on the GP layout were run by Indycar from 2005 to 2010. The race was called "Camping World Grand Prix at the Glen".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDxdZE6HsG0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQd0lDbl8vQ

IMSA/Grand-Am used the same layout as the G.P, since sportscars are not (usually) held to the same level as top tier open wheel racing the course was *not* called "Sports Car Course" or something else.

It is however, again not a misnomer in the track listing.

bradleyland
13-01-2016, 01:04
The Inner Loop was added in 1992 after the death of J.D McDuffie in 1991.

Furthermore, OP is hilariously wrong. The course is so named because of Indycar's multiple running of Grand Prix's on that circuit layout. It is not misnamed in any way, nor is the circuit "Wrong". The full length of the straight hasn't been used since before 1993. Anyone who knows the circuit as well as the OP claims to, would have known that the modern GP layout is named after the multiple visits from Champ/Indycar.

This is not the F1 circuit as the F1 circuit was nearly entirely destroyed following the pre-NASCAR and after CART stopped running on the circuit in 1981.

The current track model is not a historic track model.

The races run on the GP layout were run by Indycar from 2005 to 2010. The race was called "Camping World Grand Prix at the Glen".

....

IMSA/Grand-Am used the same layout as the G.P, since sportscars are not (usually) held to the same level as top tier open wheel racing the course was *not* called "Sports Car Course" or something else.

It is however, again not a misnomer in the track listing.

I agree with this perspective. Everything I find online refers to the current layout as "Grand Prix Circuit with Inner Loop". Calling it "Watkins Glen GP" is just shortening things a bit. The only thing I would support would be adding a variant called "Watkins Glen GP Historic" that omits the inner loop.

Shinzah
13-01-2016, 01:10
I wouldn't go so far as to call it "GP Circuit with inner loop" under the qualification that the only time the track hasn't been run without the chicane is by club level events and no major motorsport event has taken place on that particular layout since the game started development and is clearly meant to reflect the circuit as mid to late 2000s. This omission doesn't bother me. It'd be nice to have the alt-layout, sure. But given that it's not used for, pretty much anything and calling it "GP Layout with inner loop" while NOT including the layout sans-inner loop doesn't make any sense.

blacknred81
13-01-2016, 01:19
Even though J. D. McDuffie's death was the final nail in the coffin, lets not forget that Tommy Kendall had a serious crash there in the same corner 1 month before Mcduffie....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2r4zXFfQI8

gotdirt410sprintcar
13-01-2016, 02:33
I bet that hurt back in 1991 they probably drilled holes in the seats back then to take weight away. They did that back in the day in sprint cars, the guys I use too help we took about 10 pounds just out of the seat about 50 holes lol. it actually looked scary to even sit in that seat lol. CRAZY RACE CAR DRIVERS hard sprint car crashes https://youtu.be/Hygky-hXW3o

Watkinsglen151515
24-05-2016, 13:58
The inner loop? The inner loop wasn`t put in just for Nascar. It was put in to slow all cars down going into the carousel. I understand it wasn`t put in until Nascar ran there and had issues but it was put in place for all the series.

Watkinsglen151515
24-05-2016, 14:00
The inner loop? The inner loop wasn`t put in just for Nascar. It was put in to slow all cars down going into the carousel. I understand it wasn`t put in until Nascar ran there and had issues but it was put in place for all the series.

The US Grand prix also had a chicane in the esses. The full course at Watkins Glen isn`t referred to the GP course in real life. Its just known as the long course or the short course.

chrisracer
24-05-2016, 21:49
The first race at Watkins Glen took place on Oct 2, 1948 and utilized 6.6 miles of public roads. They used the course for several years before "street racing" was banned in the US. The first permanent course at Watkins Glen opened on Sept 19, 1956. This was the original layout which today is known as the "short course". The first "Pro" race was held on this course in 1957. It was a NASCAR Grand National won by Buck Baker. The first Formula One race took place on October 8, 1961 and was won by Innes Ireland.
this original course was in place through 1970 with slight minor changes. The "Long Course" (3.37 miles) opened in 1971. During the rebuild the pits were moved from the short straight before the esses to the new pit straight before the ninety. Francois Cevert won the first F1 race on the new circuit on Oct 3, 1971. In 1975 after several deaths (most famously, Francois Cervert, 1973 at the top of the esses and in 1974 Helmuth Koinigg died when his brakes failed going into the chute) the organizers built a chicane on the uphill just prior to the esses to try to slow the cars down. While it did slow the lap time down it had no effect on the speed through the traps at the end of the straight. It did make for mayhem with several drivers crashing there over the weekend (my brother and I watched Saturday practice there). It was removed by 1976. Sadly after many great years Formula one exited Watkins Glen after the 1980 race. The Watkins Glen Grand Prix Corporation could not come up with the funds to improve the track and pay for the Formula One teams to come. In 1981 the last race run by the WGGPC was held, an Indy car race won by Rick Mears. Ownership would change several more times eventually being bought by the International Speedway Corporation in March of 1997 (NASCAR Group). During the 80's and 90's the Camel GT and the IMSA GTP series ran several events each year at the Glen on the "Long Course." The July event was always the 6 hour enduro. The "bus stop" was added to slow the cars down before entering the chute. During the GTP days cars would be at 200mph plus on approach to the chute.

I have personally run there for almost 35 years. It is one of the east coast most exciting and fast tracks to run at. And while the long course is fun to run as it is the fastest track, the short course is super fast with average speeds well over 130mph.

Watkinsglen151515
25-05-2016, 01:00
The first race at Watkins Glen took place on Oct 2, 1948 and utilized 6.6 miles of public roads. They used the course for several years before "street racing" was banned in the US. The first permanent course at Watkins Glen opened on Sept 19, 1956. This was the original layout which today is known as the "short course". The first "Pro" race was held on this course in 1957. It was a NASCAR Grand National won by Buck Baker. The first Formula One race took place on October 8, 1961 and was won by Innes Ireland.
this original course was in place through 1970 with slight minor changes. The "Long Course" (3.37 miles) opened in 1971. During the rebuild the pits were moved from the short straight before the esses to the new pit straight before the ninety. Francois Cevert won the first F1 race on the new circuit on Oct 3, 1971. In 1975 after several deaths (most famously, Francois Cervert, 1973 at the top of the esses and in 1974 Helmuth Koinigg died when his brakes failed going into the chute) the organizers built a chicane on the uphill just prior to the esses to try to slow the cars down. While it did slow the lap time down it had no effect on the speed through the traps at the end of the straight. It did make for mayhem with several drivers crashing there over the weekend (my brother and I watched Saturday practice there). It was removed by 1976. Sadly after many great years Formula one exited Watkins Glen after the 1980 race. The Watkins Glen Grand Prix Corporation could not come up with the funds to improve the track and pay for the Formula One teams to come. In 1981 the last race run by the WGGPC was held, an Indy car race won by Rick Mears. Ownership would change several more times eventually being bought by the International Speedway Corporation in March of 1997 (NASCAR Group). During the 80's and 90's the Camel GT and the IMSA GTP series ran several events each year at the Glen on the "Long Course." The July event was always the 6 hour enduro. The "bus stop" was added to slow the cars down before entering the chute. During the GTP days cars would be at 200mph plus on approach to the chute.

I have personally run there for almost 35 years. It is one of the east coast most exciting and fast tracks to run at. And while the long course is fun to run as it is the fastest track, the short course is super fast with average speeds well over 130mph.

Yes, the course has had many different figurations over its time. The current course is correct and that's why it's in the game. I agree!

F1_Racer68
25-05-2016, 15:40
Just to put the final nail in the coffin for this discussion, here is the track history and configuration details straight from the horses mouth, the track website itself. (funny how no one ever goes for the most obvious and accurate sources).

http://www.theglen.com/Track-Info/History-of-The-Glen/Track-History.aspx

"TRACK HISTORY
With its rise from ragged infancy in 1948 to its position as America’s premier racing facility surely qualifies The Glen as an astounding and unlikely success story, which continues to be written over 60 years later.

Law student Cameron Argetsinger dreamed of bringing European style competition to the village where he spent his summer vacations and he drew up a challenging course that encompassed asphalt, cement and dirt roads in and around the village of Watkins Glen. The dream became reality on October 2, 1948, "The Day They Stopped the Trains," in the first post-World War II road race in the U.S. For five years, the top names in American sports car racing visited the small village and huge crowds came out to watch them race.

Competition moved to a temporary course in 1953, and 2.3-mile permanent circuit was built in 1956. The following year, The Glen hosted its first professional race, a NASCAR Grand National Stock Car event won by Buck Baker over Fireball Roberts. True international competition began in 1958 with the running of a Formula Libre race.

The Formula 1 stars all visited The Glen in 1961 for the first Watkins Glen U.S. Grand Prix, which would be a fall tradition at the circuit through 1980. Innes Ireland won the inaugural running, with great drivers such as Clark, Hill, Stewart, Lauda, Fittipaldi and Hunt among the winners of later Grand Prix.

The circuit itself was expanded in 1971, as the seventies brought a wide variety of competition to The Glen, including the Can-Am, Trans-Am, Six Hours, Formula 5000 and CART Indy Car Series. Race winners included many of the top names in international motorsports, including Mark Donohue, Mario Andretti, Jody Scheckter and Bruce McLaren.

Alan Jones' victory in the 1980 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen marked the close of an era. Financial difficulties led to the Watkins Glen date being dropped from the Formula 1 schedule and as a result, the bankrupt track closed following a CART race in 1981. Over the next two years the track fell into disrepair, hosting only a few non-spectator SCCA weekends. Corning Enterprises, a newly-chartered subsidiary of Corning Glass Works, purchased the track in early 1983 and formed a partnership with International Speedway Corporation forming Watkins Glen International.

The Glen reopened on July 7, 1984, with Al Holbert, Derek Bell and Jim Adams winning the inaugural Camel Continental at the renovated facility. On August 9, 1986, fans witnessed Tim Richmond's triumph at the return of the NASCAR Winston Cup Series. The Bud at The Glen grew to become New York State's largest motorsports event and saw some of NASCAR's finest take the checkered flag including, Martin, Wallace, and in 1998, Jeff Gordon, won his second consecutive Glen race before a record crowd.

In 1991, Terry Labonte won the first NASCAR Busch Grand National race at the Glen beginning an impressive streak of four wins in six years, including three consecutive wins in '94 through '96. His three year win streak ranks him with other Watkins Glen three-time winners: Formula One ace Graham Hill, SportsCar drivers Al Holbert and Derek Bell and Winston Cup driver Mark Martin.

1992 saw a major reconfiguration of The Glen's back straightaway. The addition of the Inner Loop increased the length of the long course to 3.4 miles and the short course to 2.45 miles. The new turns enhanced competition while adding quality spectator viewing. The Glen cemented its distinction as North America's fastest road course when Davy Jones won the pole for the Camel Continental IX with a fast lap of 150.334 mph on the reconfigured 2.45 mile short course.

In 1997, International Speedway Corporation, whose holdings include Daytona International Speedway, Talladega Superspeedway, Darlington Raceway and Phoenix Int'l Raceway, became sole owner of the historic road course, exercising a stock option buy-out of Corning Incorporated. The sale completed Corning's mission of rebuilding the race track while revitalizing the Southern Finger Lakes Region.

In addition to holding major NASCAR and SCCA events, Watkins Glen International also hosts one of the nation's premier vintage events, the U.S. Vintage Grand Prix. This event was the climax of the 50th anniversary season, returning many of the original cars and drivers to the original 6.6-mile street circuit through the village during the Grand Prix Festival Race Reenactment.

1998 saw a first time combination event featuring the Lysol 200 NASCAR Busch Series and the Bully Hill Vineyards 150 NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series as the "Festival of Speed and Sound" weekend at Watkins Glen International. A weekend filled with great racing and live musical entertainment.

In addition, Frontier Corporation (now known as Global Crossing), a nationally known communications, cellular phone and electronic media company headquartered in Rochester, New York, became the new sponsor of NASCAR's biggest event in New York, The Frontier @ The Glen, NASCAR Winston Cup event in 1999 for a three year deal designed to showcase talented, cutting edge competition on The Glen's historic course.

Fans that attended NASCAR Winston Cup Series races in 2000 and 2001 saw two unforgettable finishes. In 2000, Steve Park held off Mark Martin to capture his first ever Winston Cup victory and shared his emotion with the fans, celebrating on top of his car on the frontstretch. Then, history was made in 2001 with Jeff Gordon's remarkable seventh road course victory, setting a NASCAR Winston Cup record.

Watkins Glen International celebrated the 50th anniversary of road racing in Watkins Glen during the 1998 racing season. Throughout fifty years of change, Watkins Glen has embodied more than giant crowds and great speeds. The racing community continues to return to Watkins Glen for broader reasons. Watkins Glen has become a racing institution, the premier road racing facility in the United States.

2005 marked the largest capital improvement project at the track since the addition of the "boot" in 1971. It also marked the return of a major single-seat open-wheel racing series to the track with the Inaugural IndyCar Series race on September 25, 2005. Tony Stewart captured his second consecutive victory at The Glen and his third in four years. He joined Mark Martin and Jeff Gordon as the only drivers to win at least 3 NASCAR NEXTEL or Winston Cup races at The Glen. 2005 also marked the first time the NASCAR Busch Series and NEXTEL Cup Series competed on the same weekend.

2006 marked the 20th Anniversary of NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series racing at The Glen, the 25th Running of the Sahlen's Six Hour of The Glen and was filled with plenty of racing action. Kurt Busch and Robby Gordon banged their way to a thrilling finish in the NASCAR Busch Series Zippo 200 and Kevin Harvick captured his first career road course victory in the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series AMD at The Glen. 2006 also saw The Glen host the North American debut of the 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo. The Glen holds historical significance for the famed automaker as it was the site for the North American debut of the first 911 Turbo during the Six Hours of The Glen in 1974. The Zippo U.S. Vintage Grand Prix continued as the largest vintage event in the United States for the fourth year in a row and celebrated the 40th Anniversary of Can-Am and Trans-Am. The Glen was the only location in the country that both groups were honored during the same event. Capital Improvements continued at the famed road course for the third year in a row. Turns 1, 5 and 6 were repaved and drainage issues around each turn were also corrected.

2007 marked the 50th Anniversary of NASCAR’s debut at The Glen which was also the first professional race to be run on the permanent 2.3-mile road course. Fans at the Camping World Grand Prix witnessed Scott Dixon tie Formula 1 legend Graham Hill as the only men to win three consecutive major open wheel races at the historic road course and saw Tony Kanaan and Sam Hornish, Jr. clash on pit road following the checkered flag. The fireworks continued during the Centurion Boats at The Glen with Kevin Harvick and Juan Pablo Montoya getting into a shoving match in Turn 1 during the race and Tony Stewart claiming his fourth victory at The Glen following a spin by race leader Jeff Gordon with two laps to go. This race was selected the best NASCAR Sprint Cup Series race of 2007 by Sports Illustrated. The year ended with the demolition of the iconic Press Tower which was built in 1971.

2008 marked the 60th Anniversary of the first race ran through the streets of Watkins Glen. The season long celebration included the selection of the top driver from each of the six decades that made up the racing history in The Glen and honoring them with the title Driver of the Decade. Those honored were Phil Walters (1948-1957), Graham Hill (1958-1967), Sir Jackie Stewart (1968-1977), Al Holbert (1978-1987), Mark Martin (1988-1997), and Tony Stewart (1998-2007). These six drivers also composed the inaugural class inducted into the newly started Legends of The Glen. History was made in 2008, when Kyle Busch captured the Centurion Boats at The Glen and with it became the first driver in NASCAR history to claim three road course victories in a single season. Prior to the beginning of the season, the capital improvements project at The Glen continued with the completion of the new, state-of-the-art Media Center and the addition of two pit boxes which brought the total on pit road to 43."

Notice that THEY call it the "Inner Loop" - Officially!! It was added in 1992. Also note that NASCAR started running there in 1986, so the Inner Loop was NOT added "for NASCAR" as some have claimed. It was added 6 years AFTER NASCAR started racing there (actually, the first NASCAR race was 1957. 1986 was the return of NASCAR).

The Inner Loop is now used in all major series events whether it be NASCAR which uses the Short Circuit, or IMSA and Indy which use/will use the long layout. According to the track's own site, there are now only 2 official layouts:

- Short Course with Inner Loop
- Long Course with Inner Loop

As for ownership, the above also clarifies that discussion.

Watkinsglen151515
25-05-2016, 18:06
Just to put the final nail in the coffin for this discussion, here is the track history and configuration details straight from the horses mouth, the track website itself. (funny how no one ever goes for the most obvious and accurate sources).

http://www.theglen.com/Track-Info/History-of-The-Glen/Track-History.aspx

"TRACK HISTORY
With its rise from ragged infancy in 1948 to its position as America’s premier racing facility surely qualifies The Glen as an astounding and unlikely success story, which continues to be written over 60 years later.

Law student Cameron Argetsinger dreamed of bringing European style competition to the village where he spent his summer vacations and he drew up a challenging course that encompassed asphalt, cement and dirt roads in and around the village of Watkins Glen. The dream became reality on October 2, 1948, "The Day They Stopped the Trains," in the first post-World War II road race in the U.S. For five years, the top names in American sports car racing visited the small village and huge crowds came out to watch them race.

Competition moved to a temporary course in 1953, and 2.3-mile permanent circuit was built in 1956. The following year, The Glen hosted its first professional race, a NASCAR Grand National Stock Car event won by Buck Baker over Fireball Roberts. True international competition began in 1958 with the running of a Formula Libre race.

The Formula 1 stars all visited The Glen in 1961 for the first Watkins Glen U.S. Grand Prix, which would be a fall tradition at the circuit through 1980. Innes Ireland won the inaugural running, with great drivers such as Clark, Hill, Stewart, Lauda, Fittipaldi and Hunt among the winners of later Grand Prix.

The circuit itself was expanded in 1971, as the seventies brought a wide variety of competition to The Glen, including the Can-Am, Trans-Am, Six Hours, Formula 5000 and CART Indy Car Series. Race winners included many of the top names in international motorsports, including Mark Donohue, Mario Andretti, Jody Scheckter and Bruce McLaren.

Alan Jones' victory in the 1980 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen marked the close of an era. Financial difficulties led to the Watkins Glen date being dropped from the Formula 1 schedule and as a result, the bankrupt track closed following a CART race in 1981. Over the next two years the track fell into disrepair, hosting only a few non-spectator SCCA weekends. Corning Enterprises, a newly-chartered subsidiary of Corning Glass Works, purchased the track in early 1983 and formed a partnership with International Speedway Corporation forming Watkins Glen International.

The Glen reopened on July 7, 1984, with Al Holbert, Derek Bell and Jim Adams winning the inaugural Camel Continental at the renovated facility. On August 9, 1986, fans witnessed Tim Richmond's triumph at the return of the NASCAR Winston Cup Series. The Bud at The Glen grew to become New York State's largest motorsports event and saw some of NASCAR's finest take the checkered flag including, Martin, Wallace, and in 1998, Jeff Gordon, won his second consecutive Glen race before a record crowd.

In 1991, Terry Labonte won the first NASCAR Busch Grand National race at the Glen beginning an impressive streak of four wins in six years, including three consecutive wins in '94 through '96. His three year win streak ranks him with other Watkins Glen three-time winners: Formula One ace Graham Hill, SportsCar drivers Al Holbert and Derek Bell and Winston Cup driver Mark Martin.

1992 saw a major reconfiguration of The Glen's back straightaway. The addition of the Inner Loop increased the length of the long course to 3.4 miles and the short course to 2.45 miles. The new turns enhanced competition while adding quality spectator viewing. The Glen cemented its distinction as North America's fastest road course when Davy Jones won the pole for the Camel Continental IX with a fast lap of 150.334 mph on the reconfigured 2.45 mile short course.

In 1997, International Speedway Corporation, whose holdings include Daytona International Speedway, Talladega Superspeedway, Darlington Raceway and Phoenix Int'l Raceway, became sole owner of the historic road course, exercising a stock option buy-out of Corning Incorporated. The sale completed Corning's mission of rebuilding the race track while revitalizing the Southern Finger Lakes Region.

In addition to holding major NASCAR and SCCA events, Watkins Glen International also hosts one of the nation's premier vintage events, the U.S. Vintage Grand Prix. This event was the climax of the 50th anniversary season, returning many of the original cars and drivers to the original 6.6-mile street circuit through the village during the Grand Prix Festival Race Reenactment.

1998 saw a first time combination event featuring the Lysol 200 NASCAR Busch Series and the Bully Hill Vineyards 150 NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series as the "Festival of Speed and Sound" weekend at Watkins Glen International. A weekend filled with great racing and live musical entertainment.

In addition, Frontier Corporation (now known as Global Crossing), a nationally known communications, cellular phone and electronic media company headquartered in Rochester, New York, became the new sponsor of NASCAR's biggest event in New York, The Frontier @ The Glen, NASCAR Winston Cup event in 1999 for a three year deal designed to showcase talented, cutting edge competition on The Glen's historic course.

Fans that attended NASCAR Winston Cup Series races in 2000 and 2001 saw two unforgettable finishes. In 2000, Steve Park held off Mark Martin to capture his first ever Winston Cup victory and shared his emotion with the fans, celebrating on top of his car on the frontstretch. Then, history was made in 2001 with Jeff Gordon's remarkable seventh road course victory, setting a NASCAR Winston Cup record.

Watkins Glen International celebrated the 50th anniversary of road racing in Watkins Glen during the 1998 racing season. Throughout fifty years of change, Watkins Glen has embodied more than giant crowds and great speeds. The racing community continues to return to Watkins Glen for broader reasons. Watkins Glen has become a racing institution, the premier road racing facility in the United States.

2005 marked the largest capital improvement project at the track since the addition of the "boot" in 1971. It also marked the return of a major single-seat open-wheel racing series to the track with the Inaugural IndyCar Series race on September 25, 2005. Tony Stewart captured his second consecutive victory at The Glen and his third in four years. He joined Mark Martin and Jeff Gordon as the only drivers to win at least 3 NASCAR NEXTEL or Winston Cup races at The Glen. 2005 also marked the first time the NASCAR Busch Series and NEXTEL Cup Series competed on the same weekend.

2006 marked the 20th Anniversary of NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series racing at The Glen, the 25th Running of the Sahlen's Six Hour of The Glen and was filled with plenty of racing action. Kurt Busch and Robby Gordon banged their way to a thrilling finish in the NASCAR Busch Series Zippo 200 and Kevin Harvick captured his first career road course victory in the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series AMD at The Glen. 2006 also saw The Glen host the North American debut of the 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo. The Glen holds historical significance for the famed automaker as it was the site for the North American debut of the first 911 Turbo during the Six Hours of The Glen in 1974. The Zippo U.S. Vintage Grand Prix continued as the largest vintage event in the United States for the fourth year in a row and celebrated the 40th Anniversary of Can-Am and Trans-Am. The Glen was the only location in the country that both groups were honored during the same event. Capital Improvements continued at the famed road course for the third year in a row. Turns 1, 5 and 6 were repaved and drainage issues around each turn were also corrected.

2007 marked the 50th Anniversary of NASCAR’s debut at The Glen which was also the first professional race to be run on the permanent 2.3-mile road course. Fans at the Camping World Grand Prix witnessed Scott Dixon tie Formula 1 legend Graham Hill as the only men to win three consecutive major open wheel races at the historic road course and saw Tony Kanaan and Sam Hornish, Jr. clash on pit road following the checkered flag. The fireworks continued during the Centurion Boats at The Glen with Kevin Harvick and Juan Pablo Montoya getting into a shoving match in Turn 1 during the race and Tony Stewart claiming his fourth victory at The Glen following a spin by race leader Jeff Gordon with two laps to go. This race was selected the best NASCAR Sprint Cup Series race of 2007 by Sports Illustrated. The year ended with the demolition of the iconic Press Tower which was built in 1971.

2008 marked the 60th Anniversary of the first race ran through the streets of Watkins Glen. The season long celebration included the selection of the top driver from each of the six decades that made up the racing history in The Glen and honoring them with the title Driver of the Decade. Those honored were Phil Walters (1948-1957), Graham Hill (1958-1967), Sir Jackie Stewart (1968-1977), Al Holbert (1978-1987), Mark Martin (1988-1997), and Tony Stewart (1998-2007). These six drivers also composed the inaugural class inducted into the newly started Legends of The Glen. History was made in 2008, when Kyle Busch captured the Centurion Boats at The Glen and with it became the first driver in NASCAR history to claim three road course victories in a single season. Prior to the beginning of the season, the capital improvements project at The Glen continued with the completion of the new, state-of-the-art Media Center and the addition of two pit boxes which brought the total on pit road to 43."

Notice that THEY call it the "Inner Loop" - Officially!! It was added in 1992. Also note that NASCAR started running there in 1986, so the Inner Loop was NOT added "for NASCAR" as some have claimed. It was added 6 years AFTER NASCAR started racing there (actually, the first NASCAR race was 1957. 1986 was the return of NASCAR).

The Inner Loop is now used in all major series events whether it be NASCAR which uses the Short Circuit, or IMSA and Indy which use/will use the long layout. According to the track's own site, there are now only 2 official layouts:

- Short Course with Inner Loop
- Long Course with Inner Loop

As for ownership, the above also clarifies that discussion.





Yes, another person proves my point again. Thank You

ONT
25-05-2016, 23:14
Yea Yea Yea the "Modern Version" has Inner Loop, on short or long :cool:

But we still need the "Old Version" for the "CAPER" a 90' NASCAR, here is the race.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXg5He4q9M

Watkinsglen151515
26-05-2016, 12:41
Yea Yea Yea the "Modern Version" has Inner Loop, on short or long :cool:

But we still need the "Old Version" for the "CAPER" a 90' NASCAR, here is the race.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXg5He4q9M

Being born in 93 I only know the current circuit. I personally love the inner loop section of the course. Great spot to watch practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKoqrBfVsH8&list=PLNWN2uYr4XzjZxJwEqVqocox7dIhNWIPq&index=18