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Alexandre Bardet
01-02-2016, 07:17
When changing values for example for dampers, should I be looking at the position of the sliders or that's is not a reliable way to do it and I should be looking at the units (number/N/m/s) instead?

Here is my problem with this example:
A car which maximum value for Rear Slow Bump is 11200N/m/s. But the Front Slow Bump can go all the way to 15200N/m/s.
What does it mean if I also set the front at 11200N/m/s? It's the same unit value as the rear, but accordingly to the slider position is not as stiff.

If the sliders are the reference then the front will only be as stiff as the rear if I set the front to 15200N/m/s (max) and the rear to 11200N/m/s (max).
If the unit values are the reference then the front will be as stiff as the rear if I set it to 11200N/m/s. And then it simply means that the front can go even stiffer if one chooses, by setting it to 15200N/m/s.

Which is it? I need to understand this because I might be doing something on my setups which is not what I actually want.

Just another side question: how can you guys tell if the reason your car starts to lose the rear mid turn is because of the front end or the rear end? I can't tell if it's the front wheels that are gripping too much or if it's the rear wheels that are moving at different speed or whatever is going on.

BigDad
01-02-2016, 07:34
Sounds like some questions for Jussi .
I think he knows as much if not more than most .

hkraft300
01-02-2016, 08:33
I'd go by the values (the units themselves are relative as its all the same. Unless you're working out actual figures yourself) as the sliders aren't a great reference after having a play with Jussi's calculator.
With spring, damping and sway bars you have motion ratios and what not in effect.

Feature suggestion for pcars2: have the sliders in relative positions :)

Diamond_Eyes
01-02-2016, 08:41
....Just another side question: how can you guys tell if the reason your car starts to lose the rear mid turn is because of the front end or the rear end? I can't tell if it's the front wheels that are gripping too much or if it's the rear wheels that are moving at different speed or whatever is going on.

Doesn't the telemetry data-log give you indication as to which end that broke its traction?
Data-logging
Data analysis
Race engineer

Alexandre Bardet
01-02-2016, 09:05
Doesn't the telemetry data-log give you indication as to which end that broke its traction?
Data-logging
Data analysis
Race engineer

no idea where those features are, how to acess them and how to use them... how have I missed this?

Edit: I searched on google and for what I've seen those are Apps and they are for PC. I'm on PS4.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
01-02-2016, 13:06
Slider positions are fairly useless IMO, since some cars have dampers that lean very heavily on the stiff side and some that lean on the soft side. So minimum settings aren't necessarily "soft" at all and maximum settings aren't necessarily "stiff" at all (it can go like this in real life as well).

The numbers are trustworthy, but you need to know the motion ratios to make full use of them, and some cars have a different motion ratio for springs and dampers, which causes even more confusion.
Here is my problem with this example:
A car which maximum value for Rear Slow Bump is 11200N/m/s. But the Front Slow Bump can go all the way to 15200N/m/s.
What does it mean if I also set the front at 11200N/m/s? It's the same unit value as the rear, but accordingly to the slider position is not as stiff.The same damper rate doesn't necessarily work at all at both ends due to many reasons.

For example weight distribution: Heavier end of the car generally needs more damping to control it, as well as stiffer springs to support it.

Likewise stiffer springs require more damping, so a car designed for a stiff front suspension and a softer rear suspension (most racing cars, makes front end more responsive and stable for aero while increasing mechanical grip at the rear for traction) will want more damping at the front that the rear.

The damper digression knee (where it switches from slow to fast damping rates) also affects things, since the slow rate might be in effect for longer at the rear than at the front, requiring different settings.

And then there are the motion ratios, if your front motion ratio is 0.95:1 and your rear motion ratios are 0.65:1, you're going to need a LOT stiffer rear springs and dampers to match the levels at the front.

Example: Audi R8 LMS Ultra has a front motion ratio of 0.575:1 and a rear motion ratio of 0.875. This instantly tells us that the front end will likely need stiffer springs and dampers than the rear due to the very low motion ratio. The car is rear heavy at 42/58 F/R weight distribution, so rear end probably want stiffer springs to carry it. And it's a modern racing car with downforce, so you likely want the front a bit stiffer than the rear. Looking at the default setup, you see very unbalanced numbers: The front springs are 450 N/mm where the rears are 200 N/mm, and the front slow bump and rebound are twice as high as the rear values, and the values are very high overall. It looks like the car should be super stiff at the front, right, and just stiff overall because of the big numbers? Once you actually calculate it all out, the difference in motion ratios and them being low overall takes care of the front/rear imbalance, and the car in effect only has 16% stiffer front suspension (front spring frequency is 16% higher than the rear). The dampers also aren't that stiff compared to the springs and the weight of the car, though they're on the stiffer side.

So yeah, it's by no means simple if you want to use math instead of just testing around when tuning the setup. Thankfully my calculator takes care of that for me, so I don't have to do it by hand... =)


If the sliders are the reference then the front will only be as stiff as the rear if I set the front to 15200N/m/s (max) and the rear to 11200N/m/s (max).
If the unit values are the reference then the front will be as stiff as the rear if I set it to 11200N/m/s. And then it simply means that the front can go even stiffer if one chooses, by setting it to 15200N/m/s.

Which is it? I need to understand this because I might be doing something on my setups which is not what I actually want.The front and rear slider ranges don't necessarily result in equal relative stiffness at all, there are probably multiple cars where one end wants to be stiff with all settings while the other end doesn't really go stiff at all.


Just another side question: how can you guys tell if the reason your car starts to lose the rear mid turn is because of the front end or the rear end? I can't tell if it's the front wheels that are gripping too much or if it's the rear wheels that are moving at different speed or whatever is going on.There is no such thing as "gripping too much", you always want as much grip as you can possibly get. =)

Oversteer (outside of throttle induced conditions) is always a grip imbalance between front and rear. By definition you have oversteer when the slipangle of the rear tyres is higher than that of the front tyres. And since you want to have as much grip as possible, usually you want to increase rear grip to deal with oversteer rather than reduce front grip. The exceptions IMO are mainly when you can't generate more rear grip without hurting some other aspect (making the car too soft for example).

When throttle application enters the picture (so either oversteer coming when lifting off or planting the throttle) the differential becomes very important.

Mahjik
01-02-2016, 13:19
Numbers..

Mainly for the reason that some sliders move quite a bit but don't change the value with small increments.

artao
01-02-2016, 14:11
A related question I've been wondering about:
Many of the settings "jump" between numbers, so to speak. Say hypothetically that a car has a bump range of 10000 - 15200. When moving the slider it might jump from 10000 to 10500 to 11000 to 11500 etc ... but the slider moves several clicks between these number changes.
Does each click of the slider still mean an incremental change, or would the only valid values be each shown number change?
Am I making sense? ... This is more prevalent on sliders with decimal places.
Thanks :)

Mahjik
01-02-2016, 14:13
Does each click of the slider still mean an incremental change, or would the only valid values be each shown number change?


Only valid values.

hkraft300
01-02-2016, 14:15
no idea where those features are, how to acess them and how to use them... how have I missed this?

Edit: I searched on google and for what I've seen those are Apps and they are for PC. I'm on PS4.

PS4 also has 3rd party app support for data logging (telemetry of all sorts) and race engineer.
Plus the pcars setup database.

BrightDark
01-02-2016, 15:29
---

And then there are the motion ratios, if your front motion ratio is 0.95:1 and your rear motion ratios are 0.65:1, you're going to need a LOT stiffer rear springs and dampers to match the levels at the front.

---

Oversteer (outside of throttle induced conditions) is always a grip imbalance between front and rear. By definition you have oversteer when the slipangle of the rear tyres is higher than that of the front tyres. And since you want to have as much grip as possible, usually you want to increase rear grip to deal with understeer rather than reduce front grip. The exceptions IMO are mainly when you can't generate more rear grip without hurting some other aspect (making the car too soft for example).

---


I searched for "suspension motion ratio", and is that to understand like that the suspension is set up with a lever/weight-arm? Or "opposite" weight-arm when the ratio is below 1? In principle, so to speak.

And maybe you meant "to deal with oversteer" in the example? :confused:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
01-02-2016, 16:58
I searched for "suspension motion ratio", and is that to understand like that the suspension is set up with a lever/weight-arm? Or "opposite" weight-arm when the ratio is below 1? In principle, so to speak.

And maybe you meant "to deal with oversteer" in the example? :confused:Whooops, yeah that was a typo, fixing it now. Thanks. =)

Yeah, motion ratio is basically the ratio between how much the wheel moves up and down and how much that compresses the spring and damper, and depends entirely on the suspension linkages and geometry. With a 0.5:1 motion ratio if you move the wheel up by 10 cm, the springs and dampers only compress 5 cm. A McPherson front strut will be very close to 1:1 (usually around 0.95:1 or so) and some wishbone suspensions can be below 0.5:1.

This has a direct effect on the spring rate as experienced by the car: The car doesn't care what the nominal spring rate is, it only cares about what the spring rate measured at the wheel is. From the point of view of a car, a 100 N/mm spring at 1:1 motion ratio is equal to a ~200 N/mm spring at 0.7:1 motion ratio (for force calculations you calculate (nominal spring rate) * (motion ratio)^2 = (actual wheel rate). Same applies for damper forces (and the spring and damper motion ratios can be different in cars that don't use coilovers).

Thomas Sikora
01-02-2016, 17:18
When changing values for example for dampers, should I be looking at the position of the sliders or that's is not a reliable way to do it and I should be looking at the units (number/N/m/s) instead?

Here is my problem with this example:
A car which maximum value for Rear Slow Bump is 11200N/m/s. But the Front Slow Bump can go all the way to 15200N/m/s.
What does it mean if I also set the front at 11200N/m/s? It's the same unit value as the rear, but accordingly to the slider position is not as stiff.

If the sliders are the reference then the front will only be as stiff as the rear if I set the front to 15200N/m/s (max) and the rear to 11200N/m/s (max).
If the unit values are the reference then the front will be as stiff as the rear if I set it to 11200N/m/s. And then it simply means that the front can go even stiffer if one chooses, by setting it to 15200N/m/s.

Which is it? I need to understand this because I might be doing something on my setups which is not what I actually want.

Just another side question: how can you guys tell if the reason your car starts to lose the rear mid turn is because of the front end or the rear end? I can't tell if it's the front wheels that are gripping too much or if it's the rear wheels that are moving at different speed or whatever is going on.

This values are only the slope,
i ask a similar question time ago
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42193-Answered-Renault-Clio-Setup-Issue
If you look for e.g. the clio. a higher (from the value point of view) fast settings can means a "softer" damping.
As i said, its only the slope.
take jussis excel sheet, there you have the motion ratios, and also the damper graph visible.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
01-02-2016, 17:23
If you look for e.g. the clio. a higher (from the value point of view) fast settings can means a "softer" damping.That's a special case btw. Apparently the real one has only one adjustment for each direction, which adjusts both the fast and slow damping simultaneously, with higher slow rates decreasing the fast rates and vice versa. The damper sliders are designed to mimic this behavior when the slow and fast settings are set to the same amount of clicks from full soft, the intention is that you'd move them together.

DreamsKnight
01-02-2016, 18:13
When changing values for example for dampers, should I be looking at the position of the sliders or that's is not a reliable way to do it and I should be looking at the units (number/N/m/s) instead?

it is simple: neither.



Here is my problem with this example:
A car which maximum value for Rear Slow Bump is 11200N/m/s. But the Front Slow Bump can go all the way to 15200N/m/s.
What does it mean if I also set the front at 11200N/m/s? It's the same unit value as the rear, but accordingly to the slider position is not as stiff.


the value is related to the resistance of the damper, not to the force you apply to it on the road. this is the point. so the answer is: front and rear are two different things.



If the sliders are the reference then the front will only be as stiff as the rear if I set the front to 15200N/m/s (max) and the rear to 11200N/m/s (max).
If the unit values are the reference then the front will be as stiff as the rear if I set it to 11200N/m/s. And then it simply means that the front can go even stiffer if one chooses, by setting it to 15200N/m/s.

that are simply the values of the car. don't look them in an absolutist way. again front and rear are different.

or better this is not an arcade game "more stiff/more soft".



Which is it? I need to understand this because I might be doing something on my setups which is not what I actually want.


use project cars setup database. copy some good setups. use the juss calculator which is integrated, read some guides.



Just another side question: how can you guys tell if the reason your car starts to lose the rear mid turn is because of the front end or the rear end? I can't tell if it's the front wheels that are gripping too much or if it's the rear wheels that are moving at different speed or whatever is going on.

as my recent discover, in a balanced setup, you have too soft front slow bump, too stiff rear slow rebound. in a unbalanced setup is more possible you have a lot of understeer and to compensate you introduce oversteer


_______________

to other guys inside here: the setup section is useless?

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44572-DK-s-doubts-ZONE-free-entry-need-help


http://www.significados.com/foto/forever-alone.jpeg

BrightDark
01-02-2016, 19:56
Whooops, yeah that was a typo, fixing it now. Thanks. =)

Yeah, motion ratio is basically the ratio between how much the wheel moves up and down and how much that compresses the spring and damper, and depends entirely on the suspension linkages and geometry. With a 0.5:1 motion ratio if you move the wheel up by 10 cm, the springs and dampers only compress 5 cm. A McPherson front strut will be very close to 1:1 (usually around 0.95:1 or so) and some wishbone suspensions can be below 0.5:1.

This has a direct effect on the spring rate as experienced by the car: The car doesn't care what the nominal spring rate is, it only cares about what the spring rate measured at the wheel is. From the point of view of a car, a 100 N/mm spring at 1:1 motion ratio is equal to a ~200 N/mm spring at 0.7:1 motion ratio (for force calculations you calculate (nominal spring rate) * (motion ratio)^2 = (actual wheel rate). Same applies for damper forces (and the spring and damper motion ratios can be different in cars that don't use coilovers).

Thanks:o Good example there, with a 0.5:1 ratio!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
01-02-2016, 20:25
Thanks:o Good example there, with a 0.5:1 ratio!Note that the second one where I talk about the specific spring rates really is supposed to be 0.7:1. When calculating force you need to square the motion ratio before applying it to the spring rate, so 0.7^2= ~0.5. If you had 0.5:1 motion ratio the multiplier would be 0.5*0.5=0.25, so you'd need a 400 N/mm spring to match a 100 N/mm spring at 1:1 motion ratio. =)

Alexandre Bardet
01-02-2016, 23:08
Apologies, I don't know how to read the Suspension Calculator on P.Cars Setups database website. Have no idea what to do with it or what is it telling me.

I understood that motion ratios are important to know how soft/stiff each end of the car should be to be balanced, but where is that information? Where does it say the motion ratio of a specific car?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-02-2016, 02:57
Apologies, I don't know how to read the Suspension Calculator on P.Cars Setups database website. Have no idea what to do with it or what is it telling me.

I understood that motion ratios are important to know how soft/stiff each end of the car should be to be balanced, but where is that information? Where does it say the motion ratio of a specific car?Nowhere really (you can get a few from Casey Ringley's various "Physics of XXXXXXX Pack" posts though, but not all of them). I myself only got access to them during development of the game.

I can try to help you with the calculator if you're interested, feel free to contact me. The main points are the suspension frequencies (simple numbers) and damper critical rates (slightly more complex but not that bad).

hkraft300
02-02-2016, 08:10
Is it 100% critical where you get no overshoot or oscillation? Clarify my terminology please I'm sure you know what I mean :) struggling to remember the stuff from school its been too long.

Diamond_Eyes
02-02-2016, 11:24
Is it 100% critical where you get no overshoot or oscillation? Clarify my terminology please I'm sure you know what I mean :) struggling to remember the stuff from school its been too long.

Correct!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-02-2016, 12:08
Is it 100% critical where you get no overshoot or oscillation? Clarify my terminology please I'm sure you know what I mean :) struggling to remember the stuff from school its been too long.Indeed, correct. However, it is also super stiff. =)

miagi
02-02-2016, 12:19
Just another side question: how can you guys tell if the reason your car starts to lose the rear mid turn is because of the front end or the rear end? I can't tell if it's the front wheels that are gripping too much or if it's the rear wheels that are moving at different speed or whatever is going on.
Front and Rear axis need to match. In simple words, the difference of how good the front and the rear is defines the balance of the car. If the front is too strong the car will oversteer, making the rear "better" would be the ideal thing, but making it better isn't necessarily possible because that would simply mean it is not set up well... what can happen but was a problem all along anyway.
Making an axis worse is always possible. Stiffer ARB (Anti-Roll Bar) on the front will improve the rear axis and "worsen" the front axis. Car will move towards understeer.

With improved damping setup an axis can get better without effecting the performance of the other axis.

Sometimes understeer can come from the rear axis, high lock values (Differential) on the rear is a way to do it.

Additional note: If you improve the rear axis a lot, you can increase the "side slip angle". Driving a car with high side slip angle in corners can give drivers the feel the car is drifting or over the limit in an unstable situation. That is not the case, the car can be perfectly stable, it just looks different with a potent rear axis.

DreamsKnight
02-02-2016, 12:31
Indeed, correct. However, it is also super stiff. =)

Ahhahaa, my first PM to jussi "what mean critical?" :D

miagi
02-02-2016, 12:58
I'd like to throw something in about critical damping. Getting critical damping means that the response amplitude at natural frequency will stay at about the excitation amplitude. That is ofc wonderful, but the drawback is that higher excitation frequencys the response amplitude will stay close to excitation amplitude what is a drawback because without damping at that excitation frequencys the response amplitude would be already down to 0,5 or a lower factor of the excitation amplitude. And higher frequency have more energy so things can go bad.

Because of that, the true optimum is at about 25-35% of critical damping, it still does a pretty good job damping the natural frequency but without the exaggeration beyond about 1,5*natural frequency.

For a good working damper the mountings on the car and the chassis needs to be stiff. Or instead of damping there will only be flex in the mounting-points. That is a way to "evade" too higher damping values at higher damper speeds in real life... that is also something that doesn't happen in sim, yet. So to a degree the response will be different in a sim.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-02-2016, 13:15
Because of that, the true optimum is at about 25-35% of critical damping, it still does a pretty good job damping the natural frequency but without the exaggeration beyond about 1,5*natural frequency.I'm assuming you mean this for fast damping (where it is in fact exactly the recommendation I've seen)? For slow damping it's way too little based on the literature I've read and in-game experiments I've done. So far the race car engineering books and magazine articles I've come across seem to suggest that ~70% critical is nigh optimal for body control and 25-35% for bump handling, and the best way to improve upon that would be to tune based on suspension histogram data.

miagi
02-02-2016, 13:26
I'm assuming you mean this for fast damping (where it is in fact exactly the recommendation I've seen)? For slow damping it's way too little based on the literature I've read and in-game experiments I've done. So far the race car engineering books and magazine articles I've come across seem to suggest that ~70% critical is nigh optimal for body control and 25-35% for bump handling, and the best way to improve upon that would be to tune based on suspension histogram data.
If you want to control the body movement with slow bump instead of just damping the oscillation, then yes. But 70% critical damping on a light and stiff race car is something different than on a heavy and less stiff road car. To make use of higher damping rates it's not enough to have a stiff damper, the chassis needs to be either stiff enough to support it or has some damping itself(Morgen with their wood frame).

PS: Damping doesn't reduce the lean angle on steady state cornering, it improves the response and controls the lean angle
speed, well luckly race race cars don't do much steady state cornering :P

Diamond_Eyes
02-02-2016, 13:29
....For a good working damper the mountings on the car and the chassis needs to be stiff. Or instead of damping there will only be flex in the mounting-points. That is a way to "evade" too higher damping values at higher damper speeds in real life... that is also something that doesn't happen in sim, yet. So to a degree the response will be different in a sim.

understood because the mounting point and the tub/frame of the car itself provides some level of damping right as does the tyre but small enough to ignore for our purposes 2-dof system?

So at what level of damping will a given wheel begin to pack down, surely above 100%crit?

hkraft300
02-02-2016, 15:05
Sh******t
My fast bump is too stiff.
But a lot softer than default. Feels good.
Below 70% slow bump the car feels... Sloppy...
The LMP cars, I mean.
How's this for a thread derail:
High down force and rebound damping. Discuss.
;)

BrightDark
02-02-2016, 16:45
Note that the second one where I talk about the specific spring rates really is supposed to be 0.7:1. When calculating force you need to square the motion ratio before applying it to the spring rate, so 0.7^2= ~0.5. If you had 0.5:1 motion ratio the multiplier would be 0.5*0.5=0.25, so you'd need a 400 N/mm spring to match a 100 N/mm spring at 1:1 motion ratio. =)

Yes, I saw the math, an now I understood that as well. If you mean "so you'd need a 400 N/mm spring to match a 100 N/mm spring at 0.5:1 motion ratio.:)

BrightDark
02-02-2016, 16:48
Sh******t
My fast bump is too stiff.
But a lot softer than default. Feels good.
Below 70% slow bump the car feels... Sloppy...
The LMP cars, I mean.
How's this for a thread derail:
High down force and rebound damping. Discuss.
;)

I'm actually working on the RWD P30 LMP. Last week I made a low DF setup for la Sarthe, and this week I've started on a high DF setup for Silverstone. So I'd welcome a discussion :o

miagi
02-02-2016, 20:17
understood because the mounting point and the tub/frame of the car itself provides some level of damping right as does the tyre but small enough to ignore for our purposes 2-dof system?

So at what level of damping will a given wheel begin to pack down, surely above 100%crit?

Wait, the mounting points flex, they move under force. That reduces the spring stiffness. Well as long as the frame is 10 times stiffer than the used spring, spring stiffness is not in trouble. However, a flexing steel, aluminium or carbon fiber chassis does not provide damping. And the flex it does, reduces the efficiency of the damper. To the point where at high excitation frequencys the damper is like a stiff rod, the mounting point or crank bell flexes around and no damping is done.

Btw. all the rotating, mounted one sided crank bells have the same problem. They barely do what they should at higher excitation frequencys they mostly just flex around in stead of rotate, that we also no damping can be done. A problem that all F1, many other open-wheelers and other cars share.

What do you mean with "pack down"?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-02-2016, 21:16
Yes, I saw the math, an now I understood that as well. If you mean "so you'd need a 400 N/mm spring to match a 100 N/mm spring at 0.5:1 motion ratio.:)To clarify completely: 400 N/mm at 0.5:1 is equal to 100 N/mm at 1:1. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-02-2016, 21:19
What do you mean with "pack down"?[/COLOR]Possibly the jacking down effect that can happen when you have very high rebound and much lower bump, in continuous bumps the suspension compresses and stays there because the bumps keep hammering it in faster than the rebound lets it extend. A common reason why many "sporty" cars and aftermarket kits make the cars harsh to drive, the car jacks down and is constantly trying to bottom out.

Rally cars are set to do the opposite, they use really high bump settings and very low rebound settings to try to get the car to jack up and prevent it from bottoming out.

BrightDark
02-02-2016, 21:58
To clarify completely: 400 N/mm at 0.5:1 is equal to 100 N/mm at 1:1. =)

There, now I've got it;)

miagi
03-02-2016, 00:09
To clarify completely: 400 N/mm at 0.5:1 is equal to 100 N/mm at 1:1. =)
The other difference between 0.5:1 and 1:1 is, that with the same damper and bump stops, the 0.5:1 ratio brings twice the maximum possible wheel travel.


Possibly the jacking down effect that can happen when you have very high rebound and much lower bump, in continuous bumps the suspension compresses and stays there because the bumps keep hammering it in faster than the rebound lets it extend. A common reason why many "sporty" cars and aftermarket kits make the cars harsh to drive, the car jacks down and is constantly trying to bottom out.

Rally cars are set to do the opposite, they use really high bump settings and very low rebound settings to try to get the car to jack up and prevent it from bottoming out.
Ah that effect. Well the flex in the chassis reduces the bump damping, not the rebound so much, as here mainly the spring pushes the wheel out. So the jack down effect(that is really not useful at all) doesn't get reduced by flex in the chassis, I would say. But the jacking up effect gets reduced by flex, but it still works, useful feature in rally sport indeed.

The jacking down effect is a drawback for road car and aftermarket damper setups, but well what can you do, not every workaround can be perfect :P

hkraft300
03-02-2016, 02:21
I'm actually working on the RWD P30 LMP. Last week I made a low DF setup for la Sarthe, and this week I've started on a high DF setup for Silverstone. So I'd welcome a discussion :o

Haven't touched that car in months! Pretty much since the LMP900, Aston LMP1 and Merc CLK-LM arrived.
Shoot me a PM we can talk about the P30.

havocc
03-02-2016, 10:22
Haven't touched that car in months! Pretty much since the LMP900, Aston LMP1 and Merc CLK-LM arrived.
Shoot me a PM we can talk about the P30.

Hate that car, pretty dead engine until 3rd gear, Ts 040 instead is a real pleasure also because in races you easily smoke every other lmp1 at start no matter the place you start from...

Clk-LM is super good and with the longtail form an incredible couple of race beasts quite faster than lmp2

hkraft300
03-02-2016, 14:53
Not a big fan of the laggy engine in P30 but you can work around it with tight ratios and keeping busy with the shifter.
The Mareks are a peach though.
I can't drive the TS040 fast at all. I'll be going 220 round a fast bend with plenty of grip. Upshift to 6th to be safe, gas it, nope!
Sideways into the wall -_-
TS040 with 1600Nm at rear wheels: no f* given...

The Long Tail is OK from default but the CLK setup is horrible. Put it through Jussi's calculator online and... Wow... Just sublime.
The Longtail seems a bit more popular in public MP. I like taking them on in the CLK.
The GT1s were proper beasts. Bring em back I say.
And put some homologation rules in where the manufacturer actually has to sell a few cars. Lol

Diamond_Eyes
03-02-2016, 16:10
..... What do you mean with "pack down"?[/COLOR]

Sorry, I meant at what point (like maybe you can quote a % not sure) when setting the rebound damping too high will the wheel not have time to recover and each subsequent bump it gets a little lower and "packs-down" was my question...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
03-02-2016, 16:43
Sorry, I meant at what point (like maybe you can quote a % not sure) when setting the rebound damping too high will the wheel not have time to recover and each subsequent bump it gets a little lower and "packs-down" was my question...OK, so it was the jacking down effect.

In theory it can happen anytime the rebound is higher than the bump (with a suitable frequency of bumps), but in practice it'd be more of a problem when running way supercritical on the rebound. And the opposite can be made to happen by running very stiff on bump and very soft on rebound. =)

BrightDark
05-02-2016, 17:22
Haven't touched that car in months! Pretty much since the LMP900, Aston LMP1 and Merc CLK-LM arrived.
Shoot me a PM we can talk about the P30.


Hate that car, pretty dead engine until 3rd gear, Ts 040 instead is a real pleasure also because in races you easily smoke every other lmp1 at start no matter the place you start from...

Clk-LM is super good and with the longtail form an incredible couple of race beasts quite faster than lmp2


Not a big fan of the laggy engine in P30 but you can work around it with tight ratios and keeping busy with the shifter.
The Mareks are a peach though.
I can't drive the TS040 fast at all. I'll be going 220 round a fast bend with plenty of grip. Upshift to 6th to be safe, gas it, nope!
Sideways into the wall -_-
TS040 with 1600Nm at rear wheels: no f* given...

The Long Tail is OK from default but the CLK setup is horrible. Put it through Jussi's calculator online and... Wow... Just sublime.
The Longtail seems a bit more popular in public MP. I like taking them on in the CLK.
The GT1s were proper beasts. Bring em back I say.
And put some homologation rules in where the manufacturer actually has to sell a few cars. Lol

Thanks hkraft300 and havocc :D And yes, I noticed the laggy engine :p But I wanted to drive on la Sarthe, and the P30 was the fastest car on the PS4 leaderboards.
I just have a lot of thoughts and questions in my mind, and I really can't formulate all of them properly yet. I'd better keep on testing ;)

And there are interesting discussions going on everywhere, so it's a matter of searching, making notes, and then try to put something together.

havocc
05-02-2016, 17:30
If you plan doing long races at Le Sarthe keep in mind that you can't use max wastegate pressure with P30 for long time

BrightDark
05-02-2016, 18:34
Ah, interesting. Noted! I'm having a pause from races, working exclusively on learning setup for a couple of more months. But that sort of thing must be tested before a race!

Also, it's a little bit weird to run TT's with brake duct almost on zero, radiator on zero, ABS on, SC and TC off. Instead, it would be nice if the TT's were set up with assists on "real" for each class/car :)

miagi
05-02-2016, 20:51
Ah, interesting. Noted! I'm having a pause from races, working exclusively on learning setup for a couple of more months. But that sort of thing must be tested before a race!

Also, it's a little bit weird to run TT's with brake duct almost on zero, radiator on zero, ABS on, SC and TC off. Instead, it would be nice if the TT's were set up with assists on "real" for each class/car :)
Hmm? If you set it to real in your game options, it will "keep it real" in TT to.

BrightDark
05-02-2016, 21:53
I know. But I can go faster with ABS than without it. The point was that I would have liked if ABS wasn't allowed in TT for "prototype", as long as it isn't used IRL.

hkraft300
06-02-2016, 03:13
^ interesting suggestion. I'd back it. Definitely cause an uproar amongst the TT queens, though! :p

P30 can do 10 laps of LA Sarthe at full boost before you have to box and repair. Possible it may last a little longer with auto-clutch: off because the rev spikes damage the engine too. I've mapped a button to auto-clutch, so once I'm rolling I can turn it off and have direct shifts without the clutch action. The Marek runs much cooler. Both R18 are better on fuel and may have the advantage with pit strategies. The P30 can also overheat at 100% radiator during the hot part of the day so management is necessary.

BrightDark
06-02-2016, 14:03
^ interesting suggestion. I'd back it. Definitely cause an uproar amongst the TT queens, though! :p

P30 can do 10 laps of LA Sarthe at full boost before you have to box and repair. Possible it may last a little longer with auto-clutch: off because the rev spikes damage the engine too. I've mapped a button to auto-clutch, so once I'm rolling I can turn it off and have direct shifts without the clutch action. The Marek runs much cooler. Both R18 are better on fuel and may have the advantage with pit strategies. The P30 can also overheat at 100% radiator during the hot part of the day so management is necessary.

"TT queens", that was good ;)

Great info there, thanks!!!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
07-02-2016, 04:34
There is no such thing as "gripping too much", you always want as much grip as you can possibly get. =)
I agree in spirit*, but if you've already maximized front or rear grip and still need to decrease slip there, decreasing grip at the other end is viable.


*In most cases I hear recommendations for reducing grip at one end for balance, maximizing it at the other end wasn't recommended first, which is dubious.

BrightDark
07-02-2016, 12:23
Possible it may last a little longer with auto-clutch: off because the rev spikes damage the engine too. I've mapped a button to auto-clutch, so once I'm rolling I can turn it off and have direct shifts without the clutch action.

Are theese cars supposed to run with direct shifts? I tried without auto-clutch on Silverstone, and shaved off almost half a second on my personal best in a few laps.

hkraft300
07-02-2016, 14:01
Are theese cars supposed to run with direct shifts? I tried without auto-clutch on Silverstone, and shaved off almost half a second on my personal best in a few laps.

Ye the sequential shift cars all shift flat.
With auto-clutch on, it engages the clutch between every shift which slows the shift speed and spikes the revs between shifts if you don't lift off. This rev spike hits the limiter and damages the engine. Took me a while to figure it out.
We're talking all the sequential (that includes paddles) shift cars from Formula to LMP, GT1/3/E and maybe some road cars too.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
07-02-2016, 14:58
I agree in spirit*, but if you've already maximized front or rear grip and still need to decrease slip there, decreasing grip at the other end is viable.


*In most cases I hear recommendations for reducing grip at one end for balance, maximizing it at the other end wasn't recommended first, which is dubious.Hehe, yeah of course, if one end can't keep up at all then the other needs to compensate. I addressed that in the following paragraph. =)
Ye the sequential shift cars all shift flat.
With auto-clutch on, it engages the clutch between every shift which slows the shift speed and spikes the revs between shifts if you don't lift off. This rev spike hits the limiter and damages the engine. Took me a while to figure it out.
We're talking all the sequential (that includes paddles) shift cars from Formula to LMP, GT1/3/E and maybe some road cars too.Not quite, the Caterham R500 and the Formula Gulf at least have manual sequential boxes that don't have any active components in them. You can miss shifts in those if you don't lift the throttle during upshifts or blip it correctly during downshifts.

hkraft300
07-02-2016, 15:49
Not quite, the Caterham R500 and the Formula Gulf at least have manual sequential boxes that don't have any active components in them. You can miss shifts in those if you don't lift the throttle during upshifts or blip it correctly during downshifts.

Interesting!
I loathe the FGulf. That thing can go crawl into a hole and die.
The Merc 190E can flat shift 2-6. Tried it a few sprint races round nur gp and imola. Not sure how the box was coping though lol

BrightDark
07-02-2016, 16:02
Ye the sequential shift cars all shift flat.
With auto-clutch on, it engages the clutch between every shift which slows the shift speed and spikes the revs between shifts if you don't lift off. This rev spike hits the limiter and damages the engine. Took me a while to figure it out.
We're talking all the sequential (that includes paddles) shift cars from Formula to LMP, GT1/3/E and maybe some road cars too.


Not quite, the Caterham R500 and the Formula Gulf at least have manual sequential boxes that don't have any active components in them. You can miss shifts in those if you don't lift the throttle during upshifts or blip it correctly during downshifts.


Interesting!
I loathe the FGulf. That thing can go crawl into a hole and die.
The Merc 190E can flat shift 2-6. Tried it a few sprint races round nur gp and imola. Not sure how the box was coping though lol

Many thanks, guys :D I love this stuff!