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SUBGTRACER
05-02-2016, 01:35
Last night for the first time I took my Led TV (Panasonic WT50A 47" ) out of game mode and well "it looks beautiful in games" .

I had a run with the Witcher and project cars for 20 minutes each , I didn't notice to much lag but I did notice the difference in picture quality , with game off its really sharp , clean and crisp , with game on its still good but noticeable difference in picture quality.

I know that in first person shooters and fighting games game mode is a must as you are depending on superfast inputs , but do we need that for other title e.g racing games and adventure games.


I'm going to do a little testing on the weekend I just would like some experiences and some thoughts on the subject ...


Regards Jason . thank you.

GrimeyDog
05-02-2016, 01:44
Game Mode all the Way!!! That Fraction of a Second can cause you to Miss the Apex of the most important corner!!! Wha happen when you Miss #1 on the LB by 0.001 that Fraction of a sec Means alot.... LOL

SUBGTRACER
05-02-2016, 01:47
Cheers Grimey .........

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 02:08
For me personally, I find low latency even more important in racing games than in FPS games. Especially when sliding it can be a simply humongous help in getting the feel right, since drifting/sliding is incredibly time sensitive.

Perhaps the difference between game mode and non-game mode isn't that big on the Panasonic (wouldn't be the first time the game mode doesn't help at all), and then again Panasonic hasn't really yet done a single TV with a properly tested low input lag (usually in the 40 ms range, at best in the 25-30 ms range from what I've seen). You might be just lucky that you're not too sensitive to the lag, which can be a great thing (simplifies stuff a lot when you don't have to spend years hunting for your next TV).

But yeah, with my previous 40 ms lag Samsung HDTV I indeed didn't want to play FPS or racing games at all, it was just a horrible feeling whenever I tried, the latency made it unusable for them for me. So I played Skyrim with it, that worked fine.

SUBGTRACER
05-02-2016, 03:20
Thank you Jussi , I will give up looking for quality graphics above response time .

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 10:35
Thank you Jussi , I will give up looking for quality graphics above response time .If it doesn't affect you and you don't notice the latency, go ahead and use whatever mode that gives you more enjoyment. =)

Silraed
05-02-2016, 10:43
For my Samsung TV, an H6400 model, the best setting for gaming on it (not that I do much gaming on it, I can notice the input lag in certain games) is the "PC" mode and not the "gaming" mode I find. Experiment with your TV and find what works for you, you might like a compromise where others might not just like Jussi says :).

Djuvinile
05-02-2016, 10:59
I think i can help you a bit with this.. as ive been selling tv's for quite some time. and i was searching for this myself when i was looking for my new tv.
"Game mode" is nothing more then reducing input lag by turning some video proccessors off (varies in brand and model). I think in most cases game mode is awfull, as it is exactly what you say: less sparkling, less sharpness and less color, "but" less input lag as well (if you could notice it at all). Ive bought a Sony LED because of its smallest input lag compared to other brands (except LG). my advise to you would be not to use gamemode at all, but instead turning off all unneccesary video processing yourself like :"auto smoothing' "Auto brightness" "dynamic contrast" deep auto color" "p-nr" "Cats" .. etc etc.. (these settings make the proccesing of an image take longer = more input lag) in these settings youll have to find the best way to keep the color and sharpness, but reduce rest of the settings as much as possible.

AtomicSphincter
05-02-2016, 11:15
...
But yeah, with my previous 40 ms lag Samsung HDTV I indeed didn't want to play FPS or racing games at all, it was just a horrible feeling whenever I tried, the latency made it unusable for them for me. So I played Skyrim with it, that worked fine.

I laugh every time I read something like that. If you can notice 40ms you deserve a trophy of some kind. Human blink of the eye is 250-400ms, but somehow you can notice 0.030, yeah.... It's all a numbers game when it comes down to selling tv's. Did you know that your xbox one controller has input lag anywhere from 68-150 ms depending on a game? Bet you don't notice that lag, otherwise you'd only be playing with a wired controller. Makes me laugh every time I see a thread where consumers think they know what they are talking about and say things like "..oh no, that tv is terrible for gaming, it's got 35ms input lag, you need to buy this one instead with 4ms input lag.." Please, stop the nonsense.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 11:16
@Djuvinile: I have seen instances of many TV where turning those effects off in the menus separately doesn't help the input lag for whatever reason, only using the game mode really gets to them (and then again I've seen instances of game modes not doing a bloody thing to the input lag: TVs are a nightmare when it comes to input lag). So while a good suggestion, there can easily be cases where it doesn't work.

Yeah, Sony made for a while the best gaming TVs, though they've been slipping again with them. On mine at least I can definitely say at least that there's a big difference in the latency between the game mode and any other mode with all the effects turned off, and while there was a massive difference in the image quality initially as well, after calibrating the TV both via the menus and later through the computer, the image quality, including colors and sharpness of the game mode is the same as any other mode, just the default setting were godawful.

I wish it became a mandated feature of TVs to have input lag measured to a certain standard and given in the specs, especially with how massive the gaming industry is these days...

AtomicSphincter
05-02-2016, 11:19
Here's what your xbox one controller input lag looks like depending on a game:
Destiny : 96ms
Forza Horizon 2 : 149ms
Halo 3 Master Chief Collection : 106ms
Mortal Kombat X : 105ms
Sunset Overdrive : 128ms

Silraed
05-02-2016, 11:27
I laugh every time I read something like that. If you can notice 40ms you deserve a trophy of some kind. Human blink of the eye is 250-400ms, but somehow you can notice 0.030, yeah.... It's all a numbers game when it comes down to selling tv's. Did you know that your xbox one controller has input lag anywhere from 68-150 ms depending on a game? Bet you don't notice that lag, otherwise you'd only be playing with a wired controller. Makes me laugh every time I see a thread where consumers think they know what they are talking about and say things like "..oh no, that tv is terrible for gaming, it's got 35ms input lag, you need to buy this one instead with 4ms input lag.." Please, stop the nonsense.

The input lag of the TV may well be pretty insignificant, and yes most people are well aware that gamepads and the consoles have input lag in the way they process before sending to the TV. All of which are relatively small, we can agree on that. But it is when all these are combined that it does become a noticeable issue for some people. Not everybody is as sensitive to it, if you aren't then I bet you there are people out there that envy you that. I agree some people take it too seriously and I can't tell much if any difference between a 15ms input delay and 35 or so ms input delay on a TV, but as soon as you step above that 40ms mark it is noticeable when combined with the other delay in the chain.

You are entitled to your opinion but please try and stay polite when expressing it.

AtomicSphincter
05-02-2016, 11:43
...You are entitled to your opinion but please try and stay polite when expressing it.

I didn't offend anyone with my post, saying those that notice 40ms input lag deserve a trophy is humorous, some people are so sensitive these days..

Back on topic. Yes, it's better to use your tv's built in "game mode", it strips out all the fancy post image processing that all new tvs have. Running anything other than "game mode" can cause input lag upwards of 300ms, which is noticeable.

satco1066
05-02-2016, 12:07
I laugh every time I read something like that. If you can notice 40ms you deserve a trophy of some kind. Human blink of the eye is 250-400ms, but somehow you can notice 0.030, yeah.... It's all a numbers game when it comes down to selling tv's. Did you know that your xbox one controller has input lag anywhere from 68-150 ms depending on a game? Bet you don't notice that lag, otherwise you'd only be playing with a wired controller. Makes me laugh every time I see a thread where consumers think they know what they are talking about and say things like "..oh no, that tv is terrible for gaming, it's got 35ms input lag, you need to buy this one instead with 4ms input lag.." Please, stop the nonsense.

Shure it all matters to the reaction chain Eye-Brain-Hand/Foot-Car. But the earlier you see something, the shorter is the chain.
200 km/h is about 55m/s , that's a long way for slow reaction. If you're able to react a tenth of a second earlier, it could be the little tick to win.
But you're right, it doesn't matter, if it's 2, 5 or 10 ms. Only sharpness will raise. That's why TV sets in game mode don't look so smooth.

DreamsKnight
05-02-2016, 12:10
I didn't offend anyone with my post, saying those that notice 40ms input lag deserve a trophy is humorous, some people are so sensitive these days..

Back on topic. Yes, it's better to use your tv's built in "game mode", it strips out all the fancy post image processing that all new tvs have. Running anything other than "game mode" can cause input lag upwards of 300ms, which is noticeable.

if you can, count notes in a second. then i hope you understand that is all, but not humorous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7GY3Jd7WXM


edit: there is a database to check my tv input lag?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 12:14
I laugh every time I read something like that. If you can notice 40ms you deserve a trophy of some kind. Human blink of the eye is 250-400ms, but somehow you can notice 0.030, yeah.... It's all a numbers game when it comes down to selling tv's. Did you know that your xbox one controller has input lag anywhere from 68-150 ms depending on a game? Bet you don't notice that lag, otherwise you'd only be playing with a wired controller. Makes me laugh every time I see a thread where consumers think they know what they are talking about and say things like "..oh no, that tv is terrible for gaming, it's got 35ms input lag, you need to buy this one instead with 4ms input lag.." Please, stop the nonsense.Blinking is a very different thing from constantly looking at something, and you do notice the world goes dark for a moment when you blink, meaning you can see that happen.

I also just pulled out my 420 fps camera and recorded myself blinking, from lids full open to lids full open again I got 120 ms, and from the time my pupils were covered to when they were again uncovered more like 50 ms. The average blink might be around 250-400 ms, but when you're focused you tend to blink faster.

And what I was noticing in that example was the difference between my monitors which gave me roughly 40 ms of total lag with everything included vs. my old TV where it added roughly 30-40 ms on top of the monitors, so what I noticed was the difference between 40 ms and 70-80 ms total lag. It's much easier to notice 70-80 ms total lag than 40 ms total lag. But I was also able to tell the difference between the input lag of nKP, LFS and rFactor 2, turned out nKP could hit low to mid 30 ms range, LFS was in the 50-60 ms range and rF2 was in the 80 ms range (putting them in order of perceived lag before finding out with a high speed camera). And it's not like I'm the only one, my friend did the same test and succeeded, and many players in the realms of competitive fighting games and and FPS shooters have demonstrated the ability to notice the difference between a fast gaming monitor (around 10 ms) vs. a slightly sluggish productivity monitor (around 25 ms), and demonstrated that it has an effect on performance as well, improving accuracy among other things. It doesn't really even have to be a competitive player, even many casual players have noted how it takes them time to get used to combo timings in SFIV when switching between monitor and the average TV, or PC and console. Heck, back during initial development of pCARS there was what was perceived as a massive input lag issue, almost everyone who played was complaining that it was nigh intolerable, and especially made sliding the cars insanely hard. That input lag back then was about 100-110 ms. SMS did a wonderful job redoing the rendering system to squeeze speed out of it.

And yeah, consoles suck for this for whatever reason. The fastest total lag measurement I've seen from a modern console game has been 81 ms with Killer Instinct (as tested by DisplayLag.com using a very fast gaming monitor in the 10 ms input lag range), which is about twice of my total lag in pCARS. There are many games that go way beyond 100 ms. I can't off the top of my head say why people aren't more bothered by it, perhaps it's partly due to controllers being more "mushy" anyway compared to for example a fight stick, mouse and keyboard or a wheel (many modern wheels are very sharp and accurate precision equipment, on the PC when you send a G2X wheelbase an FFB command it responds in 10 ms). Perhaps they're just used to it. Perhaps I'm more used to the old CRT TVs and simple consoles that were insanely responsive (it has only been fairly recently that LCD monitors have caught up CRTs w.r.t. input lag) compared to modern ones. I don't know, but I do notice the differences, and they annoy me, and I wish I couldn't because it makes it so damn difficult to buy a monitor, or any piece of gear really.

EDIT: Also you don't necessarily have to be able to see the difference to be affected by it, a couple of tens of ms can easily have the effect of making a game feel slightly more sluggish and unwieldy, which while not visually obvious can still affect your performance.

Silraed
05-02-2016, 12:29
I didn't offend anyone with my post, saying those that notice 40ms input lag deserve a trophy is humorous, some people are so sensitive these days..

"Please, stop the nonsense." Can be taken as offensive, it is essentially saying people are talking nonsense when they give their opinion. I didn't mean to sound rude or aggressive with my last comment, it was simply meant as a reminder to everybody, not just you, that politeness is the currency of the realm around here :). I could have worded it better.

AtomicSphincter
05-02-2016, 13:20
...Also you don't necessarily have to be able to see the difference to be affected by it, a couple of tens of ms can easily have the effect of making a game feel slightly more sluggish and unwieldy, which while not visually obvious can still affect your performance.

A couple ten's of a seconds is not 30-40 thousands of a second, big difference there. Also PC gaming is in a different league, console gaming is much different, as mentioned above your game pad input lag is anywhere form 90-150ms, whereas keyboard and mouse input is usually 1-2ms. As some one posted here, you'll only notice that additional 40ms input lag only when combined with other lag in the chain(game pad input lag).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 13:38
A couple ten's of a seconds is not 30-40 thousands of a second, big difference there. Also PC gaming is in a different league, console gaming is much different, as mentioned above your game pad input lag is anywhere form 90-150ms, whereas keyboard and mouse input is usually 1-2ms. As some one posted here, you'll only notice that additional 40ms input lag only when combined with other lag in the chain(game pad input lag).I quite clearly wrote "a couple of tens of ms", so a couple of tens of milliseconds (meaning some 20-30 odd milliseconds), not a couple of tenths of a second. And yes, it can easily have an effect on people (in VR particularly it has a massive effect). If you're not one of them then good for you, I and others like me are not so fortunate. =P

If the game pad has that much lag then I wouldn't ever use one. Modern consoles have felt laggy to me anyway, and that's in situations where the measured total system responses (from controller to on-screen happening) has been in the 100 ms range, with your 90-150 ms controller that'd be pushed to and beyond 200 ms, which would be insane amounts of latency for me.

I'm not claiming to be in the majority, it has become very clear over the years that I'm in the small majority, but we exist, and we can tell. We're not better, we're just different, and frankly like I've said I'd rather not be able to notice.

EDIT: I guess it's similar to some people not noticing the difference between a 60 and a 90 Hz, or even a 144 Hz monitor, or some people not noticing stutter in 30 fps video (that doesn't have adequate motion blur at least), while others do.

AtomicSphincter
05-02-2016, 14:18
I quite clearly wrote "a couple of tens of ms"..
.

My bad there, totally misread that, also apologies for coming across as being rude and arrogant.

BigDad
05-02-2016, 14:35
Don't get Jussi started , ow to late . :D
I think he was in the debate team at school and won . ;)

Liquid7394
05-02-2016, 15:33
I don't use game mode personally since it makes image quality horrible and input lag is fine with game mode off. If I was playing games at a professional level then maybe I'd use it.

AtomicSphincter
05-02-2016, 16:06
Don't get Jussi started , ow to late . :D
I think he was in the debate team at school and won . ;)

I think you're totally right! Lol

SUBGTRACER
05-02-2016, 22:36
With regards to game mode and normal mode I can definitely tell there is a difference in the inputs.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 23:01
Don't get Jussi started , ow to late . :D
I think he was in the debate team at school and won . ;)I don't need no team. =)

LukeC
06-02-2016, 03:59
I don't use game mode personally since it makes image quality horrible and input lag is fine with game mode off. If I was playing games at a professional level then maybe I'd use it.

Really? That's not the case for me at all. Are you talking about project cars, or other games looking horrible in game mode?

TopAirspace
06-02-2016, 04:06
I have a 9000 series Samsung Curved 65in UHDTV and at first it was terribe without using Game Mode, but after a few TV updates i now have all the visual fruit turned on including Motion Plus and it's brilliant,

Zalex
05-06-2016, 05:28
I laugh every time I read something like that. If you can notice 40ms you deserve a trophy of some kind. Human blink of the eye is 250-400ms, but somehow you can notice 0.030, yeah.... It's all a numbers game when it comes down to selling tv's. Did you know that your xbox one controller has input lag anywhere from 68-150 ms depending on a game? Bet you don't notice that lag, otherwise you'd only be playing with a wired controller. Makes me laugh every time I see a thread where consumers think they know what they are talking about and say things like "..oh no, that tv is terrible for gaming, it's got 35ms input lag, you need to buy this one instead with 4ms input lag.." Please, stop the nonsense.

Just spin around in a 3D shooter trying to shoot others and you will notice the difference right away. ;)

Fortunatly in a racing game you mostly focus in center of screen and where you want to go, even DLP projector is good for racing sims and i'm prone to be affected by rainbow effect of color wheels normally.

all depend the use you do with your HW. :)

i know it's an old tread, just seen stuff i worked on in the past, so i jumped in. lol

kevin kirk
07-06-2016, 16:58
hardest debate I have ever tried to read and follow ever