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Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-02-2016, 22:12
Since there's been much talk about this lately, and it seems like we're reaching the end of constant updates in a few more months, I thought I'd share some findings w.r.t. the balance of the GT3 class in-game as it currently stands.

First of all, I want to make a few things clear:

The GT3 class in-game is already incredibly well balanced, especially considering the number of cars and tracks available to us, and the difficulty of balancing turbo cars at low and high altitudes. There are various very competitive candidates to choose from depending on the track and individual driving style. There's isn't a single car that could be deemed to be "simply the best overall choice, for everyone", and especially not in long races where tyre wear and fuel consumption become issues.

This data is almost solely based on the PC version Time Trial leaderboards. There are a few exceptions, like the Aston GTE Silverstone time that is from PS4, and the Ginetta G55 GT3 times in bold which are my own lap times that I did with A) very small setup changes and B) within at most 5 laps of Free Practice, not TT, just because the top times looked way slower than I suspected the car is capable of. Especially the Ginetta times in bold are NOT the fastest times possible for the car by any means, they're just me quickly proving that the G55 can go quicker than the leaderboard says with little effort.

There are some problematic cars, the most problematic being the Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE, the Bentley Continental GT3 and the Ginetta G55 GT3. The reasons they are so problematic are as follows:

-Because there's a general (possibly not entirely wrong) perception that these cars are slower than the others (or "ruined in an update" in the case of the Bentley), they don't seem to be even remotely as popular with Time Trial players as most of the others. Just as an example on these 15 tracks I have selected here the Audi R8 LMS Ultra has on average 196 lap times (and hence drivers) per track, whereas the Aston Martin GTE has 36, roughly meaning over 5 times as many people are pushing the Audi R8 LMS Ultra to their limit as the Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE.

-The Bentley suffers both from very few drivers and especially very few (and unclear) drivers after the BoP update. The leaderboards weren't wiped after the BoP update, so we can only see people who have improved their time with the new BoP, anyone who has a better time with the old version is still showing their old time, not their new time. This makes it hard to tell how much the performance actually changed for people. In the data I've put in the pre-BoP fastest times as the Bentley Continental GT3 and the post-BoP times (times posted after 10/10/2015 when Patch 5.0 was rolled out) as the Bentley Continental GT3 BoP.

-Almost never did I see the same names topping these leaderboards that I saw with the other cars. Just as an example, F1-Masa, who holds several records with many of the GT3 cars, has only a SINGLE time in the Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE, and it's on Sakitto GP, where he is almost 2.5 seconds faster than the next guy (80Daze, who holds a couple of Aston GTE records), and he also has 0 Bentley times. What this means is that the fastest drivers overall seem to be avoiding these three cars to a large extent, so not only are there less people trying, it's largely not the "usual suspects" who dominate the leaderboards overall. This applies doubly for the Bentley, even before the BoP update we saw very serious effort from the fast guys on the TT boards.


So, with that out of the way, here are the results. I've picked 15 supposedly popular tracks (all using the GP or long layout) that should include a wide variety of track types as well and correlate fairly well with tracks where these cars are driven. Like I said before, the data is almost purely from the PC leaderboards, with impossible times weeded out to the best of my ability. Still, it is important to remember that these are ONLY the times that people have done so far, not what CAN be done. Many of the "good drivers" haven't driven most of the cars on most of the tracks, so this is just a snapshot that can give some direction:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1602/24896625116_2dc45f7f82_o.png

So, from the start we can see a few trends:

-There are roughly 6 cars that could be considered the "fastest cars": Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3, BMW Z4 GT3, Ruf RGT-8 GT3, BMW M3 GT, Audi R8 LMS Ultra, and the Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3.

-There's a loose but not by any means definite correlation between the fastest cars on average and the fastest cars on specific tracks. The SLS, which on average is the fastest car in this comparison, has 4 fastest overall times, but the M3 GT has 6, despite being the 4th fastest on average times. The Z4, which is second on average, only has 1 outright fastest lap time.

-Just looking at these results, there are 3 cars that can be considered the slowest: The Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE, the post-BoP Bentley Continental GT3 and the Ginetta G55 GT3. However it is very important to keep in mind that these are cars that in any case have been driven the least on the leaderboards, and their current TT times might not be at all good representations of their actual potential. The most obvious case is the Aston GTE, which I don't believe for a second is actually 5-6 seconds slower than everything else on Azure Circuit (Monaco) and Imola. I need to add Sakitto into the table next, but taking it as an outside example, F1-Masa has both the overall fastest GT3 time in the M3 GT and the fastest Aston GTE time, which is 2.086 seconds slower. If F1-Masa HADN'T done his Aston GTE time, the Aston would show up as being 4.440 seconds slower. Having a good driver put in a good lap makes a MASSIVE difference in how fast or slow the car appears. For the most part, you can almost ignore the Aston GTE times, they're not representative of actual performance IMO.

-Yes, the post-BoP Bentley is slow in these results, and the pre-BoP Bentley wasn't terribly fast either, but I still don't think the BoP update as such was done too hastily. Even before the BoP the fastest drivers hadn't really done any fast times in the Bentley, so we don't have a good idea of how fast it REALLY was before BoP. There are even instances there where the post-BoP time is faster than the pre-BoP time, and many times that are very close, so the pre-BoP times aren't fully telling of actual performance either. The way that it was quickly being banned in online series due to being so quick does tell a tale, and from what I saw when I drove it pre-BoP, I could easily match and improve the times I'd hit with other cars even before I had really gotten settled into the car. I still maintain that it was too quick as it was when it came out, but currently it would also appear that it could be too slow right now. But that's hard to say because we have so few clear times, done by the fastest drivers.

-Ignoring the two most obvious cases of leaderboard times not being all that descriptive of actual performance (Aston GTE and Bentley) the average difference between the slowest (Ginetta) and the fastest car (SLS) is just a hint over 1 second (Ginetta being 1.068 seconds behind the SLS). And since multiple times on the Ginetta are also actually my quick tries in Free Practice, we can even take that out, in which case the difference is 0.697 seconds (McLaren). I'd say this is shows how remarkably well balanced the GT3 lineup is overall.

-None of this takes into account endurance racing! I have heard reports of people very successfully competing in long races with the Aston GTE even if they were a bit slower than the others, because it was so easy on the tyres and had good fuel economy (meaning less time in the pits and less degradation across a stint). This is definitely a thing that factors in to what is really the "best car", it's not just about all out speed, it's also about consistency and managing a stint.



What we need right now is more accurate data for the "slowest cars"!

If we want to get the GT3/GTE lineup as balanced as possible, we must act now. We're unlikely to get terribly many chances to get BoP updates to the cars, so we should try to do it as soon as possible. Currently the data regarding the biggest problem cars is severely lacking, and if we did balancing based on this data alone then we would be overcompensating by a huge margin.

So I'm asking everyone to try and push the "slow cars", the Ginetta, the Bentley and the Aston GTE to their limits and beyond in Time Trial, and to try and get the word out to the fastest drivers to take up the cause as well. There are a lot of weak records out there for these cars that could be improved comfortably. Our best chance for a more balanced GT3 class is to get SMS as accurate data as possible to show the differences between the cars when driven to the max.

Even if you yourself aren't the fastest driver, you can still help by doing your best and trying to figure out exactly how much slower you are in each of the cars compared to the cars you are fastest in, and reporting in this thread (preferably with screenshots to prove it). We don't really need the "the car is always two seconds behind the others" here, we need more exact numbers of actual performance.

The Bentley is the trickiest, because it unfortunately has the old pre-BoP times still up. This will basically require, unless the current WRs can be improved, that any evidence is posted in this thread.

Hopefully people will do what they can to get a more accurate image of the performance levels of these cars. We already have a supremely well balanced field overall, the best I've seen in any racing sim outside of league editions with identical physics for every car, now if we can just get the last stragglers in line it could be insanely good.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-02-2016, 22:32
And after adding Sakitto to the list we get this:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1654/24806827262_967f7f318f_o.png

You can clearly see the importance of having a really good driver do a lap. F1 Masa has the three GT3 top times on Sakitto GP I think (M3 GT, Z4 GT3 and V12 Vantage), and now that he showed what he can achieve with the Aston GTE it doesn't show up as dead last by ~3-5 seconds like on the other tracks, it actually fights very closely with the Audi R8 and G55 records and beats the McLaren record significantly.

This is the importance of making sure the fastest times are actually fast.

Oh, and since I forgot: This whole thing is not just for PC players! If any of the consoles has better representation of the true capabilities of these cars then please do share!

graveltrap
09-02-2016, 23:32
Unfortunately due to the way the leaderboards work on the console, the data isn't really available :(

We only really see what a car is capable of when it is used for something like an SMS-R event, take the Ginetta GT3 at Dubai GP as an excellent example of this!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-02-2016, 23:46
Some more GT3 related data I've been gathering:

Here are the torque and power curves for each GT3/GTE car as they are in-game (Newton meters and kilowatts). Tests were done on the test track, pulls were measured from 1000 rpm onwards (which the exception of the V12 Vantage) and the graph shows 100 rpm steps.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1453/24321443670_01bf2dd46f_o.png

Here's another graph, with only the power curves, adjusted to use the same "length" (to help make more useful comparison since gearing is also a factor):

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1703/24534755501_3e822932f4_o.png

Some things I noted:
-Man dat Aston V12 (light blue) has a nice flat area on the top of the range, no wonder it feels so fast on the straights. Thankfully it's not as capable in the corners, otherwise it'd just all out dominate.
-Ginetta G55 GT3 (brown) is a weird one, it has no flat area in its RPM range, and while its top power currently is actually pretty good, the way it just climbs up slowly means you have almost no time at all at that high power, most of the time it's producing as much or even less power than the Aston GTE. The Ruf RGT-8 GT3 is a bit similar, but has much more grunt in the mid-range.
-Due to the pretty long flat period and the sharp and fairly early dive on the power curve of the Bentley (due to the intake restrictor causing the engine to be starved for air at high revs) you should NOT rev it all the way to the limiter! From my testing I found out that the optimum shift point on the Bentley is right about when the second LED lights up on the dash. When you shift there you have as much or more power in the next gear than you had in the previous gear, and revving to the limiter can rob you from over 30 usable horsepowers, making you significantly slower. It does however also mean that the usable rev range on the Bentley is narrower.
-The McLaren is a bit weird to me. It has a turbo that seems to come on quite smoothly, and it's producing power in the lower end of the pack for a lot of the range. The Bentley has a sharper kick to the turbo and a lot of grunt overall. I'm going to do partial pulls starting from the 4000-5000 rpm range to see how the boost builds up there. I've always felt the McLaren to be very easy to drive due to being able to just mash down the throttle and not have to worry about the tail getting out of line, partially because it doesn't have that much power overall and partially because the turbo comes in so smoothly.

NEPALII
09-02-2016, 23:48
SMS is still tweaking the GT3 cars but you can't forget that the BoP is always changing in real life as well. I have seen instances where, for example, in one year a GT3 car laps Spa in a 2.20 and in the next year they are doing a 2.16! Recently on Bathurst, the record was broken with a 2.01, actually fastest than any pCars lap time set. It's difficult for SMS to keep up, but it would be very nice to have updated BoPs for the GT3/GTE cars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-02-2016, 23:48
Unfortunately due to the way the leaderboards work on the console, the data isn't really available :(

We only really see what a car is capable of when it is used for something like an SMS-R event, take the Ginetta GT3 at Dubai GP as an excellent example of this!All cars in the same list I presume, so it only records your fastest time on a particular circuit out of all cars you've driven there?

Screenshots of lap times would work as well, if anyone can be bothered to set their mind to beating the times.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-02-2016, 23:50
SMS is still tweaking the GT3 cars but you can't forget that the BoP is always changing in real life as well. I have seen instances where, for example, in one year a GT3 car laps Spa in a 2.20 and in the next year they are doing a 2.16! Recently on Bathurst, the record was broken with a 2.01, actually fastest than any pCars lap time set. It's difficult for SMS to keep up, but it would be very nice to have updated BoPs for the GT3/GTE cars.I know, it changes from race to race quite often in real life, and almost every series uses their own BoP. It's a mess in real life.

SMS has already managed to get the vast majority of the GT3 lineup very competitive with each other, now we just need to figure out how much the last few cars that fall outside the spectrum need adjusting. Then we could have a truly epic GT3 lineup in-game. We'd still have the problem of high altitude tracks and turbos since we can't force restrictions in an online race, but we could get them really good for the vast majority of tracks.

Sasquatch
10-02-2016, 00:00
Solid post!


None of this takes into account endurance racing! I have heard reports of people very successfully competing in long races with the Aston GTE even if they were a bit slower than the others, because it was so easy on the tyres and had good fuel economy (meaning less time in the pits and less degradation across a stint). This is definitely a thing that factors in to what is really the "best car", it's not just about all out speed, it's also about consistency and managing a stint.
I'm not sure about that.

I tested fuel use of the Aston V8 GTE and the V12 GT3 on Laguna Seca in a 10 min session and did the same laps. There's no way for me to log tire wear besides just being aware of their condition... The GTE used more fuel, but was definitely gentler on the tires. The V12 GT3 starting at 106.0L in 7 laps, used 13.0L. But I noticed it is rough on tires, considering it does seem and feel much faster. The V8 GTE noting it has a smaller tank, started at 95.0L and in 7 laps, used 14.4L.

Maybe if there was to be a difference between these two, naturally we'd see the V8 GTE being the more reliable over the sheer sprinting pace capability of the V12 GT3? But since it seems the only way to grenade your engine is to "increase wastegate pressure" on turbocharged engines, instead of operation wear?

NEPALII
10-02-2016, 00:12
I know, it changes from race to race quite often in real life, and almost every series uses their own BoP. It's a mess in real life.

SMS has already managed to get the vast majority of the GT3 lineup very competitive with each other, now we just need to figure out how much the last few cars that fall outside the spectrum need adjusting. Then we could have a truly epic GT3 lineup in-game. We'd still have the problem of high altitude tracks and turbos since we can't force restrictions in an online race, but we could get them really good for the vast majority of tracks.

It's practically impossible to make a completely even GT3 lineup but maybe have a few BoP adjustments every now and then by SMS would be amazing! I know it's not an easy task but it sure would be great!

I don't want what iRacing does, to change a car's behavior so drastically just so it matches the other cars. No, I hope to God SMS doesn't do that. All I want is try to follow the most recent BoP and adjust accordingly.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 00:15
All I want is try to follow the most recent BoP and adjust accordingly.The most recent BoP for what series driving on what tracks by what drivers though? =)

NEPALII
10-02-2016, 00:17
The most recent BoP for what series driving on what tracks by what drivers though? =)

LOL very good point. There are so many different ones. :P I guess SMS could just pick the most popular GT3 series (Blancpain? WEC?) and take the BoP from there. But you do have a good point. ;)

bradleyland
10-02-2016, 00:47
Jussi, if it's OK, I have created a template from your timing workbook that people can work from to record their times.

Lap Time Record Book DOWNLOAD (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6353242/pcars/bop-project/USERNAME%20Lap%20Time%20Record%20Book.xlsx)

bradleyland
10-02-2016, 00:47
LOL very good point. There are so many different ones. :P I guess SMS could just pick the most popular GT3 series (Blancpain? WEC?) and take the BoP from there. But you do have a good point. ;)

Keep in mind that the purpose of BoP adjustment is to keep the racing competitive, which is the same thing we're trying to do here. Whether it matches the real-life BoP packages exactly is kind of a moot point. BoP is a means, not an end. It's important not to confuse the two :)

NEPALII
10-02-2016, 01:47
Keep in mind that the purpose of BoP adjustment is to keep the racing competitive, which is the same thing we're trying to do here. Whether it matches the real-life BoP packages exactly is kind of a moot point. BoP is a means, not an end. It's important not to confuse the two :)

I am aware of that but adjusting the BoP on pCars to closely match real life would also make the cars closer to real life lap times. In some cases, such as Spa, the GT3 in pCars are way too fast. Maybe they have too much grip or are too fast on straight line speed. Kunos tried to do the same with AC but in my opinion they have messed up as the cars are too slippery and slow now.

graveltrap
10-02-2016, 09:04
I wonder how much of the data on the PC leaderboards is relevant now, we have had the camber fix, the tyre war and most of the data predates these times! It is probably time for a reset ;) :eek:

IRL isn't BoP determined by a pre season test at Paul Ricard (yes I know they also adjust it on a race by race basis), I wonder which in game track would best used to replicate this test, so I could focus my efforts, it needs to be as close to sea level as possible (offset turbo performance advantage at altitude) have a long straight and a good mix of corners...

haydnbuzz
10-02-2016, 09:09
SMS could also add the Radical RXC to this class as the car has just been approved and homoglated for National GT3 racing regardless on opinions on whether or not it's a "true" GT car. I wouldn't mind seeing it in game as personally I'd like to see the thing on slicks.

Source:
http://radicalsportscars.com/news/46
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/radical-rxc-turbo-approved-for-gt3-racing/33725

Liquid7394
10-02-2016, 09:16
I'm no where near the fastest driver but from my limited experience being the only one using the GTE in an event I always seemed to be somewhere around 2 seconds slower than the fastest driver.

Renoldo1990
10-02-2016, 10:34
Hey. Nice Work. That proves more or less the opinions that I had on the balance of the cars in game.
The Mercedes SLS AMG GT3 is the fastest car outside those "Mickey Mouse Tracks" like Oschersleben and Monaco.

For me it is then followed by the BMW M3. This car can be insanely fast on nearly every track. But like the Ginetta and the Aston GTE there are only a few drivers who use the car. In this case i think because of the missing ABS.

I think it's a pitty that the Aston GTE can't keep up with the GT3's ingame as it actually should be faster than them in real life. Next Month we will have the Corvette GTE. So probably this car won't keep up with the GT3's either.

The McLaren can be a bit faster than the times you have mentioned in your chart.
I'm faster in this car on Bathurst, Brno (more than a second), Dubai, Silverstone and Sonoma on PS4.

I can look up the exact times later on.

DreamsKnight
10-02-2016, 11:38
i suggest, to do the best comparative with similar condition of TT, to open an online session with those parameter:
-no fuel consuption and put to 5L
-no tire wear
-no damage
-radiator to 0


i'll try to do some comparatives in my possibility. i'm far to know how to drive properly a gt3 car and i know only 4/5 tracks. :D

in each case, IMHO the tire war and camber fix must be considered in those times.

Diamond_Eyes
10-02-2016, 12:00
... IRL isn't BoP determined by a pre season test at Paul Ricard (yes I know they also adjust it on a race by race basis), I wonder which in game track would best used to replicate this test, so I could focus my efforts, it needs to be as close to sea level as possible (offset turbo performance advantage at altitude) have a long straight and a good mix of corners...

agreed that focus should be on one track, 11 cars x 16 tracks = 179 laps?

Silverstone 156m AMSL
Sakitto 30m AMSL

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 13:30
One track IMO is not enough, not by a long shot, and especially not if it's at low altitude (if the cars are balanced at low altitude then turbos will be getting an advantage on every track that isn't at low altitude).

Also I'd argue that it's slightly useless to focus on the Aston V12, Audi R8, BMW M3 & Z4, Mercedes SLS, RGT-8 and probably even the McLaren, since those cars are all very popular anyway and the times are already a good representation of their capabilities. What really is lacking right now are Ginetta, Aston GTE and Bentley Continental times.

AbeWoz
10-02-2016, 13:39
i'll try to get you some aston times on the xbox, but i'm a complete n00b when it comes to tuning

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 13:41
Oh, and if anyone knows any really fast drivers, try and see if you can ask them to get involved, please? This is in the end for the good of the game in the long term. =)

Pamellaaa
10-02-2016, 13:52
Oh, and if anyone knows any really fast drivers, try and see if you can ask them to get involved, please? This is in the end for the good of the game in the long term. =)

I have put out the bat signal on the RSR thread (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?41394-RSR-Revolution-Sim-Racing-Ranked-Races-Every-Week-Signup-Now!&p=1230862&viewfull=1#post1230862), can't promise anything but some of the guys are certainly fast enough to help :).

t0daY
10-02-2016, 13:56
Oh, and if anyone knows any really fast drivers, try and see if you can ask them to get involved, please? This is in the end for the good of the game in the long term. =)

I think RSR can help here at a certain point :)


** Ninja'd by freaking Pamellaaa -.-' **

beetes_juice
10-02-2016, 14:04
Everyone help Jussi out!

Plan to do laps for this over the next week. Started to do laps with the GTE last night....wow the Spa WR on pc.

Anyway, hopefully everyone is being quiet and doing laps instead. ;)

TonyR
10-02-2016, 14:11
To really compare the cars you would need to do a 1 hour stint in them.
Also that stint should contain grippy and non-grippy conditions (maybe day/night) as the Aston for example is only really useful under perfect grip conditions, else it just can't put down the power.

In my opinion you need to watch running leagues and you see which cars are overpowered and which are not. When the distances get longer cars with more downforce/mechanical grip get better, they tend to dominate over high power/low grip cars.

Aston GTE and Ginetta definitely need a boost. They are much too slow accelerating from a corner.
Also the M3 is too easy to drive for it's general performance. However considering it would not have ABS in "Realistic Aids" option that would set it up more equally I guess.

Raven403
10-02-2016, 14:21
Are all of these times in Question Real assists times? or No assists Times? Because that makes a difference, a 1-2 sometimes 3 second difference.

With NO assists, these cars all get pretty equal, and cars like the RUF become more of a handful without a decent tune on it.

Which brings me to another point, the Stock tunes in most cases for these cars are way off, and the tune can make a HUGE difference.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 14:26
Are all of these times in Question Real assists times? or No assists Times? Because that makes a difference, a 1-2 sometimes 3 second difference.

With NO assists, these cars all get pretty equal, and cars like the RUF become more of a handful without a decent tune on it.

Which brings me to another point, the Stock tunes in most cases for these cars are way off, and the tune can make a HUGE difference.These are the fastest times from the leaderboards, so they can be any combination of aids. I can't say I ever thought stability control helped with speed in the least, and ABS and TC should be allowed for all since they're allowed for the GT3 cars (even if the M3 GT and Aston GTE don't have it under real aids option I see no problem allowing them to use it when running against GT3 cars).

For the most part the fastest times I saw were done with ABS on, TC on sometimes.

Raven403
10-02-2016, 14:30
These are the fastest times from the leaderboards, so they can be any combination of aids. I can't say I ever thought stability control helped with speed in the least, and ABS and TC should be allowed for all since they're allowed for the GT3 cars (even if the M3 GT and Aston GTE don't have it under real aids option I see no problem allowing them to use it when running against GT3 cars).

For the most part the fastest times I saw were done with ABS on, TC on sometimes.

Those are the two that help the most, and make a lap about 2-3 seconds faster Id say. Braking way later and being able to mash the throttle out of turns helps ALOT. In my experiences on the LBs chasing some ghosts its noticable. I suppose the majority of people use them so I imagine times should stay relatively close.

But without the assists to me these cars change quite a bit, and some are easier/better than others without them. Audi, M3 are eaiser for instance, the RUF is tougher just because of its engine placement and Stock Tune.

That said once you get the RUF sorted out tune wise its probably the Best All Rounder in the class, that and the Z4

NoBrakes
10-02-2016, 14:50
Oh, and if anyone knows any really fast drivers, try and see if you can ask them to get involved, please? This is in the end for the good of the game in the long term. =)

THX for this idea and nice workout!

I've put a competition within my small but growing german community (http://forum.simracingbase.de/index.php/Thread/532-pCARS-Time-Trial-GT3-GTE-Wettbewerb/?postID=4860#post4860) to record TTs with the mentioned 3 GT3/GTE cars and tracks - let's see if we could provide some useful data within the next month.

Fight-Test
10-02-2016, 16:01
here are some from PS4.

PS4 Leaderboad

Monza GP

Top 3
1. Audi R8 1:43:407
2. Mercedes 1:43:475
3. Audi R8 1:43:644

Aston GTE
1. 1:47.520
2. 1:47:978
3. 1:48:375

Ginnetta
1. 1:44.688
2. 1:44:730
3. 1:44:926

Bathurst

Top 3
1. Mclaren 2:01:808
2. Bentley 2:02:274
3. Mercedes 2:02:521

Aston GTE
1. 2:10:166
2.
2:07:488 Tjger Endurance League Race Qualification Time (2:04:8 was fastest in Bentley)

Ginnetta
1. 2:08:018
2.

I STOPPED AT 2:12:000 WITH THESE BEING ONLY TIMES POSTED.

Brno

Top 3
1. Bentley 1:57:055
2. Audi R8 1:57:230
3. BMW Z4 1:57:828

Aston GTE
1. 2:01:719
2. 2:04:677
3. 2:09:037
2:00:577 Tjger Endurance League Race Qualification Time

Ginnetta
1. 2:01:553
2. 2:01:647
3. 2:03:584

graveltrap
10-02-2016, 16:19
Qualification times from online racing are using a different set of track limits / track conditions so can't really be compared to leaderboard times, other cars are also in the mix and slipstreaming comes into play.

I guess the do give an indication of race performance, but it isn't as easily comparable to that from TT.

Fight-Test
10-02-2016, 16:28
The TT times are a joke. There are a few alien times at the top but most guys I run with are hitting top 10 times every lap so I agree with you. That's why I posted some real times compared to leaderboard. I haven't run tt but it must really slow you down.

I'll look around at some other leagues and see what they are hitting in qualification but the problem is no one uses the gte or ginetta because they are not very competitive. Just gonna have to get as many giys to run laps and really see the difference. We have a aston gte in our league and he is very quick. I'll see if I can get some times from him.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 16:31
Hopefully the people who run the Ginetta, Aston and Bentley won't just go for a few laps and come back with "Yup, they're slow". The point really would be to get them to go to their limits and see exactly how much slower they are, not just that they're slower.

Fight-Test
10-02-2016, 16:37
Gravel, you gonna run some laps in ginetta? I saw you pretty fast in it.

Thomas Sikora
10-02-2016, 17:31
Hello Jussi,
nice post!!!

but imo i would not consider only the fastest time, more the mean value of the top 10 e.g. (depending on how much times are in LB).
I did it on example of silverstone GP.
I kick out the toptime, means i consider only times 2-11
227185
What you see in Blue is the meantime of the car and under ALL the meantime of all classes, below the difference to mean time. Green faster, red slower.
IMO on this track are the cars well balanced expect the Aston GTE and Ginetta, which are about 2 seconds slower then the mean time.

I think we should have in this kind a view on the BOP with focus on the tracklayout.
- Highspeed
- lowspeed
- cornering
- fast cornering

Edit: i ignored also the date, means before or after patch (e.g. camber fix)

graveltrap
10-02-2016, 17:34
Gravel, you gonna run some laps in ginetta? I saw you pretty fast in it.

Yes I will, but the Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE has me distracted ATM ;) The super fast guys are around 2 seconds a lap quicker than me anyway though :(

Awong124
10-02-2016, 17:36
I'm not sure about that.

I tested fuel use of the Aston V8 GTE and the V12 GT3 on Laguna Seca in a 10 min session and did the same laps. There's no way for me to log tire wear besides just being aware of their condition... The GTE used more fuel, but was definitely gentler on the tires. The V12 GT3 starting at 106.0L in 7 laps, used 13.0L. But I noticed it is rough on tires, considering it does seem and feel much faster. The V8 GTE noting it has a smaller tank, started at 95.0L and in 7 laps, used 14.4L.

Yes, even if you look on the fuel screen in settings when you're at a track, then if you set them to do the same amount of laps the game would estimate that the GTE would use a little more fuel.



Those are the two that help the most, and make a lap about 2-3 seconds faster Id say. Braking way later and being able to mash the throttle out of turns helps ALOT. In my experiences on the LBs chasing some ghosts its noticable. I suppose the majority of people use them so I imagine times should stay relatively close.

I personally don't think TCS helps with setting the fastest lap time at all. It might help with consistency possibly. For me, TCS either intervenes where I don't need it to and cuts too much speed, or it doesn't intervene when I actually do need it to and I spin. It never seems to work how I would like it to work, so I just end up leaving it off.

Mahjik
10-02-2016, 17:49
It's a slippery slope when solely focusing on lap times. You also have to include other things such as tire wear and fuel usage. Cars that may be slower over a single lap may have an advantage over longer distances (i.e. like Audi had done in the past) based on fuel usage and/or tire wear. You really need to pull all of that information together to make proper assessments of the cars.

JetPistol
10-02-2016, 17:55
Great approach, Jussi! :cool:

What I have on my mind regarding GT3 BoP is that you guys basically integrate the two GT2/GTE cars (M3 GT, AM V8 GTE) into the GT3 class. But what happens if SMS decides to establish a dedicated GT2/GTE class with the BMW and Aston alongside the newly announced Corvette (C7.R GT3 or GTE?) and Cadillac (is this ATS-V.R GT3 or CTS-V?)?
I mean is it confirmed that those two cars will go straight into the ingame GT class which contains all the GT3 cars? If so, your strategy to balance the performance for all those cars based on representative data is the way to go.


SMS could also add the Radical RXC to this class as the car has just been approved and homoglated for National GT3 racing regardless on opinions on whether or not it's a "true" GT car. I wouldn't mind seeing it in game as personally I'd like to see the thing on slicks.

Source:
http://radicalsportscars.com/news/46
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/radical-rxc-turbo-approved-for-gt3-racing/33725

I like that (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43406-RADICAL-RXC-Turbo-Tyre-selection) :D

M4MKey
10-02-2016, 18:02
Oh Jussi... So many thanks for, at least. Stating the true facts. The patched Bentley has become very bad.

I'm driving it in a very competitive league and I can assure anyone that this isn't one the best. So far. Tracks with long straights and few corners are for the Aston GT3 ( we don't have any SLS GT3 in our league ). And tracks with a lot of corners, twisty ones, are for the Z4.

Next track for us is Zuhai... 100% for the Aston here. And even after the exit of the last corner, a Bentley can't detach a Z4 from its drag...
Another example, Catalunya GP. Under wet conditions. Bentley requires full aero ( because it's a nightmare for throttle management ). And on full aero, you can't overtake a Z4 even with the draft.

For sure, next year's league. I won't take this. I think people moaned about it before its nerf because it was swallowing Z4 on straights. ( AS IT SHOULD ! ).

haydnbuzz
10-02-2016, 18:18
I like that (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43406-RADICAL-RXC-Turbo-Tyre-selection) :D

Alex Hobbs could well be to the rescue in 0.6 of his excellent Mod http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44077-0-5-Open-Beta-Alternate-Handling-Mod-Discussion-Thread

JetPistol
10-02-2016, 18:28
Alex Hobbs could well be to the rescue in 0.6 of his excellent Mod

Thanks for this piece of information. I could test it already - slicks should be added to the official build. Please vote and comment (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43406-RADICAL-RXC-Turbo-Tyre-selection) to make it happen. :o

haydnbuzz
10-02-2016, 18:33
Thanks for this piece of information. I could test it already - slicks should be added to the official build. Please vote and comment (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43406-RADICAL-RXC-Turbo-Tyre-selection) to make it happen. :o

Way ahead of you, voted yes when you created the poll! Very sad when we didn't see it in 8.0.

TexasTyme214
10-02-2016, 18:35
here are some from PS4.

PS4 Leaderboad

Monza GP

Top 3
1. Audi R8 1:43:407
2. Mercedes 1:43:475
3. Audi R8 1:43:644

Aston GTE
1. 1:47.520
2. 1:47:978
3. 1:48:375

Ginnetta
1. 1:44.688
2. 1:44:730
3. 1:44:926

Bathurst

Top 3
1. Mclaren 2:01:808
2. Bentley 2:02:274
3. Mercedes 2:02:521

Aston GTE
1. 2:10:166
2.
2:07:488 Tjger Endurance League Race Qualification Time (2:04:8 was fastest in Bentley)

Ginnetta
1. 2:08:018
2.

I STOPPED AT 2:12:000 WITH THESE BEING ONLY TIMES POSTED.

Brno

Top 3
1. Bentley 1:57:055
2. Audi R8 1:57:230
3. BMW Z4 1:57:828

Aston GTE
1. 2:01:719
2. 2:04:677
3. 2:09:037
2:00:577 Tjger Endurance League Race Qualification Time

Ginnetta
1. 2:01:553
2. 2:01:647
3. 2:03:584

I've done some faster times than this in the Aston but I'm never in time trial. I can go do a couple of runs

Edit:
Imola: 1:43.599
Brno: 1:59.755
Monza: 1:46.9XX (mistake in sector 1)

All above in the GTE (no assists). It's the same speed as all the other cars for me except the high speed it high altitude tracks.

thmxvr
10-02-2016, 19:05
I always wanted to test the post BoP Bentley and try to see what it was really worth. I will try to do some times on those slow cars you asked.

For now I would like to point out what I think is an inconsistency on the faster car: The Ruf 911 can do much better than 2.03.9 on Bathurst. I remember doing 2.02.9 during quali with the default setup, colder temps, more fuel and pretty much no talent.

DreamsKnight
10-02-2016, 19:36
Jussi, why no zolder?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 20:24
Hello Jussi,
nice post!!!

but imo i would not consider only the fastest time, more the mean value of the top 10 e.g. (depending on how much times are in LB).Problem is that some cars can have 10 superfast times that are within 0.5 seconds (especially if the car was in a community event), while another might have 10 times total, the third one already 5 seconds slower than the top time. Right now I'm more interested in the raw maximum capabilities of these cars than the averages, as a first step. If the car pushed to its furthest is still 2 seconds behind the top 5 cars, then no amount of averaging will help it.
It's a slippery slope when solely focusing on lap times. You also have to include other things such as tire wear and fuel usage. Cars that may be slower over a single lap may have an advantage over longer distances (i.e. like Audi had done in the past) based on fuel usage and/or tire wear. You really need to pull all of that information together to make proper assessments of the cars.I consider this just a first test, to see how big the differences are in raw speed. You need to have pretty immense advantages in tyre and fuel if you intend to compete with a 2 second per lap disadvantage in lap times.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 20:25
Jussi, why no zolder?Just didn't think of it at the time, it can be added in the next update.

Mahjik
10-02-2016, 20:47
I consider this just a first test, to see how big the differences are in raw speed. You need to have pretty immense advantages in tyre and fuel if you intend to compete with a 2 second per lap disadvantage in lap times.

Yes, but even you know that all those things need to be considered. There will be cars that are just not going to win a sprint race because they don't have the outright pace. So the question on those cars is if there are any advantages they have outside of solely looking at pace.

Pamellaaa
10-02-2016, 20:47
Just didn't think of it at the time, it can be added in the next update.

I wouldn't, track cutting is far too easy at zolder and no 2 laps are comparable because of this.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 21:05
Yes, but even you know that all those things need to be considered. There will be cars that are just not going to win a sprint race because they don't have the outright pace. So the question on those cars is if there are any advantages they have outside of solely looking at pace.Be that as it may, we must first establish how fast the cars are. Currently the apparent speed differences are so massive that no amount of tactics short of completely skipping a pit stop can make the car competitive between equal drivers. We need to know how far they really are from each other in pure pace.

Telstar
10-02-2016, 21:31
I am currently using the Bentley GT3 in my career and having just finished the Asia/Pacific GT3 Cup, which means I have already driven at Sakitto, Bathurst and Dubai. Is there any possibility to see the times I set during those events?

MrBlacky
10-02-2016, 22:16
These are some nice statistics you made there Jussi, but honestly, I think it's rather useless for finding the strongest GT3 car. As you already mentioned, these are only the lap times from time trial. And another factor is, that many of the good drivers are not represented in these leaderboards.

For myself I only set times in the Z4 because that's the car I drive in our racing league, but that doesn't mean these are the fastest laps I've done on a certain track with that car. I usually go 30 minutes in time trial to see where I am and that's it.

I know a lot of very talented drivers who haven't set any time in time trial.

So TLDR: These leaderboard times are not very representative to pick the fastest car.

NEPALII
10-02-2016, 22:31
There are other in-game factors contributing to the difference in lap times. Some tracks have issues with cutting and allow cutting to be done. Also, TT conditions are, well, "more arcade". There is no fuel consumption, and I'm assuming that track/weather conditions are probably more than optimal. Not to mention setups are made just for a single lap, these setups wouldn't be good for a race due to being too aggressive.

Despite all of these factors, I still think the GTs could do with some more tweaking but overall SMS has done a great job and managed to give us some pretty good representation of the GT cars. But there is always room for improvement :)

M4MKey
10-02-2016, 22:56
These are some nice statistics you made there Jussi, but honestly, I think it's rather useless for finding the strongest GT3 car. As you already mentioned, these are only the lap times from time trial. And another factor is, that many of the good drivers are not represented in these leaderboards.

For myself I only set times in the Z4 because that's the car I drive in our racing league, but that doesn't mean these are the fastest laps I've done on a certain track with that car. I usually go 30 minutes in time trial to see where I am and that's it.

I know a lot of very talented drivers who haven't set any time in time trial.

So TLDR: These leaderboard times are not very representative to pick the fastest car.

To be even more precise. Leaderboards laptimes tends to be slower than a packed quali session in our league. Still, it's quite a decent way to see where are the cars between each others. And oddly, tracks where a certain car is 2seconds faster on the leaderboard is clearly faster on a complete race weekend.

E_Luckow
10-02-2016, 23:02
It's a slippery slope when solely focusing on lap times. You also have to include other things such as tire wear and fuel usage. Cars that may be slower over a single lap may have an advantage over longer distances (i.e. like Audi had done in the past) based on fuel usage and/or tire wear. You really need to pull all of that information together to make proper assessments of the cars.

Well, this is the approach used in real life. The average lap times should be close.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 23:11
These are some nice statistics you made there Jussi, but honestly, I think it's rather useless for finding the strongest GT3 car. As you already mentioned, these are only the lap times from time trial. And another factor is, that many of the good drivers are not represented in these leaderboards.

For myself I only set times in the Z4 because that's the car I drive in our racing league, but that doesn't mean these are the fastest laps I've done on a certain track with that car. I usually go 30 minutes in time trial to see where I am and that's it.

I know a lot of very talented drivers who haven't set any time in time trial.

So TLDR: These leaderboard times are not very representative to pick the fastest car.You're seem to be sort of missing the point here, it's not about finding the fastest car in the least. It's all about figuring out if there are any clear outliers. Currently, for the most part, the 7 top cars in GT3 that people most play with are very close to each other (the McLaren perhaps slightly behind). Averaging across multiple tracks their fastest times are well within a second of each other. All of these cars have tons of drivers driving them on many popular tracks, and the tops of the leaderboards are highly competitive.

Then there are 3 cars that are generally ignored, people saying they're useless, slow, uncompetitive or ruined. And looking at the stats they immediately stick out. So what is needed to balance them with the 6 other cars? Currently it's really hard to say because there's really nothing solid, it's mostly just people complaining about how bad they are and giving up on the cars without pushing them to the absolute ragged edge to see how far behind they really are. General consensus is that they're slower, but how much? Almost no-one seems to be driving them, especially not the normal fast guys (with F1-Masa's GTE lap on Sakitto GP being a great exception and showing something closer to the actual difference between the cars), and the leaderboards are filled with top-3s with multiple second differences, not competitive at all, and the Bentley has barely any times showing since the BoP update.

The purpose of this thread really is for the most part to try to show how well balanced overall the 7 usual suspects are, and how we have almost no idea of how fast the other 3 really can be, and trying to get people activated to figure it out, try to get actual competition for these three cars going. We don't have too many "guaranteed" updates in the pipeline anymore and I'd really love to see the 3 outliers join the pack.

TT leaderboards are unfortunately pretty much the only source of laptimes that's available, other than people just posting their times (which can create issues because we know even less about the conditions then). Yeah, many people don't put in their full effort in TT either, especially if they manage to nab the top spot easily. But like I said, the 7 most popular GT3s all have hundreds of people driving them on these tracks (the two I've calculated the averages so far are the R8 LMS Ultra with 200 on average and McLaren with 250 on average on the PC alone, and they're not the most popular cars by any means AFAIK), and the competition at the top is usually very tough. It's not the best but it's the best I have even remotely good access to, working alone.

This is not supposed to be the be all end all on the subject, it's only trying to be a solid first step to get the 3 cars that have fallen to the side back in the game. I honestly think that one of the best things SMS could do would be to start community events with these three cars on popular tracks to see how they stack up when people who are focused on maximizing speed get their hands on them.

3800racingfool
10-02-2016, 23:18
Not sure how accurate of a method this is but I took the Bentley around Road America (fav. track) for an hour or so last night racing against the AI. First race I ran against just other Bentley's. My best qualifying time was a 2.08.4 for that race and i was about a second and a half faster than the quickest AI car (2.09.9s). The race itself was a walk-away and, after the first corner, there wasn't any challenge.

So, after that, I ran a second race, same track/conditions/number of cars/time/etc except this time I switched it to run with other GT3 cars, not just Bentleys. Qualifying this time was much tighter with my best lap being a 2.07.7 just squeaking into first place by .3 seconds. The race itself was also much closer as I never pulled more than a 4 second advantage over second place and the average gap was about 1.5-2 seconds.

This may or may not really be useful in the grand scheme of things, but I do find it interesting how much closer the times get when comparing to the other class cars even when the AI is driving them. I haven't yet tried this test with other makes but I will be doing so here over the next few days.

MrBlacky
10-02-2016, 23:25
You're seem to be sort of missing the point here, it's not about finding the fastest car in the least. It's all about figuring out if there are any clear outliers. Currently, for the most part, the 7 top cars in GT3 that people most play with are very close to each other (the McLaren perhaps slightly behind). Averaging across multiple tracks their fastest times are well within a second of each other. All of these cars have tons of drivers driving them on many popular tracks, and the tops of the leaderboards are highly competitive.

Then there are 3 cars that are generally ignored, people saying they're useless, slow, uncompetitive or ruined. And looking at the stats they immediately stick out. So what is needed to balance them with the 6 other cars? Currently it's really hard to say because there's really nothing solid, it's mostly just people complaining about how bad they are and giving up on the cars without pushing them to the absolute ragged edge to see how far behind they really are. General consensus is that they're slower, but how much? Almost no-one seems to be driving them, especially not the normal fast guys (with F1-Masa's GTE lap on Sakitto GP being a great exception and showing something closer to the actual difference between the cars), and the leaderboards are filled with top-3s with multiple second differences, not competitive at all, and the Bentley has barely any times showing since the BoP update.

The purpose of this thread really is for the most part to try to show how well balanced overall the 7 usual suspects are, and how we have almost no idea of how fast the other 3 really can be, and trying to get people activated to figure it out, try to get actual competition for these three cars going. We don't have too many "guaranteed" updates in the pipeline anymore and I'd really love to see the 3 outliers join the pack.

TT leaderboards are unfortunately pretty much the only source of laptimes that's available, other than people just posting their times (which can create issues because we know even less about the conditions then). Yeah, many people don't put in their full effort in TT either, especially if they manage to nab the top spot easily. But like I said, the 7 most popular GT3s all have hundreds of people driving them on these tracks (the two I've calculated the averages so far are the R8 LMS Ultra with 200 on average and McLaren with 250 on average on the PC alone, and they're not the most popular cars by any means AFAIK), and the competition at the top is usually very tough. It's not the best but it's the best I have even remotely good access to, working alone.

This is not supposed to be the be all end all on the subject, it's only trying to be a solid first step to get the 3 cars that have fallen to the side back in the game. I honestly think that one of the best things SMS could do would be to start community events with these three cars on popular tracks to see how they stack up when people who are focused on maximizing speed get their hands on them.

I think I got the point.

But why don't you compare times on the NOS? It's a tricky track with a lot of variety and differences in car performance will be much more visible due to the track lenght. And another plus: The NOS times are set by almost the same people.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 23:25
Looking forward to more results, I think driving against the AI is fine, but since they're not on the same physics as us I don't know how fully relevant it is. Interesting to hear though that they're that much slower even in the hands of the AI.

I think probably the most pertinent part would be figuring out how much faster you are in the other cars compared to the Bentley when you're doing your utmost in both. This probably needs to be a fairly wide spread though, since some people are just faster in a specific car than in another.

3800racingfool
10-02-2016, 23:41
Looking forward to more results, I think driving against the AI is fine, but since they're not on the same physics as us I don't know how fully relevant it is. Interesting to hear though that they're that much slower even in the hands of the AI.

I think probably the most pertinent part would be figuring out how much faster you are in the other cars compared to the Bentley when you're doing your utmost in both. This probably needs to be a fairly wide spread though, since some people are just faster in a specific car than in another.

That's more or less my line of thinking. Road America is one of the few tracks I know my way about somewhat so hopefully I'll be able to narrow down just how much faster/slower the other cars are in comparison.

I should also note I'm doing all of this on stock/default car settings. There's probably a bit more time to be gained from each car via tuning but, considering sprint races are definitely where the pace difference should be felt, and sprint races are the type of race where people will jump in and race without changing too much, I feel that it gives a better baseline as to where the cars are at right out of the gate.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 23:41
I think I got the point.

But why don't you compare times on the NOS? It's a tricky track with a lot of variety and differences in car performance will be much more visible due to the track lenght. And another plus: The NOS times are set by almost the same people.NOS is excluded because of a couple of things. First of all the lap time differences there can be massive compared to any other track, so it throws off the scale (it's worth 5 laps on other tracks). Secondly it's a track that very clearly attacks certain homologation differences in the cars, particularly in the gearing limitations. Le Mans wasn't included for the same reason. Nords is much more of a special case in itself than a good representative of various tracks. It's twisty yet the very long fast sections usually mean that a low downforce is preferable to a higher downforce setup. And it does all this at high altitudes.

This can fairly clearly be seen also from the top of the overall GT3 leaderboard, despite having easily the most corners and corner combinations of any track, places 1-11 are all held by SLSs, Bentleys and Aston V12s, i.e. the cars with the most power and straight line grunt (Bentley isn't there normally but the high altitude favors the turbo). In the top 20 in addition to those three there are two M3 GTs, one Z4 GT3 (and it's already almost 5 seconds behind) and one McLaren.

So yeah, I don't want to attach Nords to this because it's such a freak. The other major freak (in the other direction) is Azure Circuit, which I'm considering taking out as well.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 23:43
That's more or less my line of thinking. Road America is one of the few tracks I know my way about somewhat so hopefully I'll be able to narrow down just how much faster/slower the other cars are in comparison.

I should also note I'm doing all of this on stock/default car settings. There's probably a bit more time to be gained from each car via tuning but, considering sprint races are definitely where the pace difference should be felt, and sprint races are the type of race where people will jump in and race without changing too much, I feel that it gives a better baseline as to where the cars are at right out of the gate.Unfortunately many of the default setups are limiting the cars' capabilities, or make them suited more to certain track types, if possible I'd like to see at least aerodynamics and gearing adjusted to fit the track. Those two are usually capable of being the largest limiting factors in a setup.

bobfromaccounting
11-02-2016, 00:01
Jussi what settings do you want for the times (i.e tire ware, fuel levels,....)

I'm the only one who runs the Bentley in my racing league and I can usually get into the top 100 in the online time trails. So maybe I can hopefully give some good times.

Pamellaaa
11-02-2016, 00:03
Jussi what settings do you want for the times (i.e tire ware, fuel levels,....)

I'm the only one who runs the Bentley in my racing league and I can usually get into the top 100 in the online time trails. So maybe I can hopefully give some good times.

If you run time trials you won't have to worry about any of the other settings as they are fixed.

Mahjik
11-02-2016, 02:01
Well, this is the approach used in real life. The average lap times should be close.

Not to keep beating this horse, but professional racing does a lot more in general. They will limit fuel tank sizes, restriction in fuel rigs, and a lot of other things to balance cars. These are based on longer runs (and pit speed in some cases), not solely out right speed. The GT field is a little more controlled than the LMP field, so they don't typically get too crazy but they can and have in some cases.

E_Luckow
11-02-2016, 02:49
Not to keep beating this horse, but professional racing does a lot more in general. They will limit fuel tank sizes, restriction in fuel rigs, and a lot of other things to balance cars. These are based on longer runs (and pit speed in some cases), not solely out right speed. The GT field is a little more controlled than the LMP field, so they don't typically get too crazy but they can and have in some cases.

I´m not talking about how they make it, i´m saying that the goal is similar lap times and top speeds over the field. In considering that this is make in just one weekend (one single track), with just two drivers doing the tests, the final results are not that great IRL.

Mahjik
11-02-2016, 03:22
i´m saying that the goal is similar lap times and top speeds over the field.

Who's goal?

E_Luckow
11-02-2016, 03:24
Who's goal?

The series organizers!

Mahjik
11-02-2016, 03:27
The series organizers!

The organizers are looking at everything as a whole. i.e. how to make the cars competitive with the varied tracks and race lengths. Different organization use different methods depending on the their series criteria. i.e. a sprint series will have much stronger car classifications to begin with which reduces the amount of balancing they need to do afterwards. Endurance races take many other things into consideration (such as more gearing options, fuel, etc) so there are more ways to level the playing field other than slowing or speeding up cars.

E_Luckow
11-02-2016, 03:40
The organizers are looking at everything as a whole. i.e. how to make the cars competitive with the varied tracks and race lengths. Different organization use different methods depending on the their series criteria. i.e. a sprint series will have much stronger car classifications to begin with which reduces the amount of balancing they need to do afterwards. Endurance races take many other things into consideration (such as more gearing options, fuel, etc) so there are more ways to level the playing field other than slowing or speeding up cars.

As I said, the BoP is decided in just ONE weekend (FIA regulations). No wonder there are so many complains from many manufacturers. For example, the BMW was way out of the pace last year (as well in 2014), in the Blancpain sprint series.

But after all, we are trying to get a better BoP in game. Its a fact that the Bentley, for example, is one of the weakest cars in the GT3 series. Hard on tires, high fuel consume, and too long time to reach the top speed - that is lower than many other cars). I don't see nothing, in the short or long run that would make me choice the Bentley for an online race. I do it offline, but I have to lower 4-5 points in the AI strenght to be competitive.

Mahjik
11-02-2016, 03:49
As I said, the BoP is decided in just ONE weekend (FIA regulations).

This isn't FIA, and these cars are from various racing organizations (not solely FIA).

E_Luckow
11-02-2016, 03:51
This isn't FIA, and these cars are from various racing organizations (not solely FIA).

Yes, it is.

https://gtsprintseries.wordpress.com/gt-sprint-series/fia-balance-of-performance-gt3/


http://www.fiagtworldcup.com/all-about-the-balance-of-performance/

Mahjik
11-02-2016, 03:56
Yes, it is.


What are you talking about? SMS isn't specifically following FIA for their specific balancing. We know that by the way we have GTE vehicles in the class already. We can quote every GT ruling out there where these cars run (FIA, IMSA, etc). SMS will decide how and what they want to do on their own since pCARS does not currently have a series license for any modern GT series.

3800racingfool
11-02-2016, 04:42
What are you talking about? SMS isn't specifically following FIA for their specific balancing. We know that by the way we have GTE vehicles in the class already. We can quote every GT ruling out there where these cars run (FIA, IMSA, etc). SMS will decide how and what they want to do on their own since pCARS does not currently have a series license for any modern GT series.

Just to add to as well. Several of the cars that are (or will be) in game are from different years as well where significant changes can occur not only from BoP but also via the teams/manufacturers themselves. That's also something that needs to be taken into consideration.

E_Luckow
11-02-2016, 05:19
What are you talking about? SMS isn't specifically following FIA for their specific balancing. We know that by the way we have GTE vehicles in the class already. We can quote every GT ruling out there where these cars run (FIA, IMSA, etc). SMS will decide how and what they want to do on their own since pCARS does not currently have a series license for any modern GT series.

There is a misunderstanding here. When you said "This isn't FIA", I though you were talking about the real series. In case, I was refering to Blancpain (FIA regulations).

NOW, I realized you were discussing the game series and its BoP.

Of course this is up to you SMS guys. In NO place I said anything different.

Anyway, this is going in circles.

azidahaka
11-02-2016, 07:32
And interesting work, but Bentley results are skewed by being a DLC Car, remember it. Lots of people do not get DLCs or are on dlc strikes.

Beside that you should look at GT4 field jussi... That is where the real issues are, with 2 out of 6 cars being on another planet.

N0body Of The Goat
11-02-2016, 08:04
If there are no more planned major tyre physics planned, I think we could really do with a leaderboard wipe, after all the significant changes that have happened since the last wipe.

However, in my opinion, there are still too many "arcade" exploits in Time Trial that make the leaderboard meaningful, especially for BOP adjustments...
Tyre wear can be turned off (with no sign in the official leaderboard)
Damage can be turned off
Mechanical damage can be turned off (so drivers can run with crazy low brake ducts and radiators, reducing drag and improving top speed)
etc.

For BOP adjusting, a standard date/time/weather condition in Quick Race Weekend would be better, to race solo at each track for something like 60 minutes, to be able to look at fuel/tyre use. But that is heck of a lot of work!

Then there is the setup debate for the test. Default setup is not optimal, but BOP adjustments based on default would mean server hosts could force default setup and get reasonably balanced races, while custom setup would heavily favour those with engineering skills.

EvoM3
11-02-2016, 10:12
That data sheet is really cool! I can spot a lot of my times.

DreamsKnight
11-02-2016, 11:12
If there are no more planned major tyre physics planned, I think we could really do with a leaderboard wipe, after all the significant changes that have happened since the last wipe.

i agree. it is also a tool for driver like me that need a reference, but i always have a doubts related to camber, tyres etc..


However, in my opinion, there are still too many "arcade" exploits in Time Trial that make the leaderboard meaningful, especially for BOP adjustments...
Tyre wear can be turned off (with no sign in the official leaderboard)
Damage can be turned off
Mechanical damage can be turned off (so drivers can run with crazy low brake ducts and radiators, reducing drag and improving top speed)
etc.


not correct :)

if you put damage and wear and other things off the driving model change from pro to intermediate and you see in the chart.
mechanical damage are already off. in TT the temp of engine is always at minimum.

low brake ducts don't change so much in speed and there is an hotspot for brakes. if you have higher temps they don't... brake. :D


___________________


for everyone, i see too much problems here.

the request is simple: go to a track, do your best with one of the "fastest" gt3 then do your best with one of the "slowest", post your times.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 11:28
As I said, the BoP is decided in just ONE weekend (FIA regulations).The initial BoP which they often adjust from race to race after that, and they have years of experience balancing the cars by now.

Raven403
11-02-2016, 14:08
Then there is the setup debate for the test. Default setup is not optimal, but BOP adjustments based on default would mean server hosts could force default setup and get reasonably balanced races, while custom setup would heavily favour those with engineering skills.

This is where I think we might have a problem in results here. 2 drivers of equal skill, one driving a better setup, will set a faster time, every time. The car setups used in LBs are for fast laps, not endurance. GT3 is an endurance class, pushing hard for 15 laps in TT is different from managing tire and fuel usage. The setup makes a big difference in that department as well. Someone could have a setup that allows them to get much more life out of the tires, but it may not be the fastest TT time, but considering the Pit Delta at some tracks could be over 40 seconds, you could still compete with a 'Faster' car. For instance I was able to compete with guys setting faster times by Double stinting Fuel, drastically cutting down time in the pits.

Ive already said our GT3 league, the guy using the Ginetta won the damn series, mostly because he could make tires last way longer then almost anyone else, AND the Ginetta can run basically No downforce everywhere.

Also, as I said the Assists make a difference. I never use any, so my TT times probably wont help in this discussion.

But I think there is an argument to be made here, especially for the Bentley Post Patch, it never needed a Nerf and should be put back.

I just think there needs to be a Set of Parameters to get real results. Tune, TOD, Weather, Track, Car, # of Laps. Otherwise I feel like we are analyzing false data. If I have some time Ill throw up some laps on TT just to see how my Tunes/No Assists compare.

Fight-Test
11-02-2016, 14:21
The bentley is much faster than ginetta. Not even close.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 14:22
The bentley is much faster than ginetta. Not even close.Would appreciate some actual numbers from tracks. =)

Raven403
11-02-2016, 14:30
The bentley is much faster than ginetta. Not even close.

In a straight line maybe.

Bentley drinks fuel like crazy, and takes a proper tune to get the most out of.

Ginetta runs away in corners and sips fuel. Bentley would probably pass on the straight, then get carved up in the corners, and go back and forth between them Depending on the track/driver obviously

Fight-Test
11-02-2016, 14:36
Road america is only notes I have for ginetta and I'm sure I didn't spend alot of time in it. Prob just 3 or 4 hours.

Audi 2:05:456
Z4 2:05:698
Ginetta 2:08:221

Prob not the best track for this car.

I have run in 4 gt3 leagues and have over 1100 hours in just the z4 and audi. We race every night in a big group and have since beginning of summer minus a holiday break I took. I just see it every night.

I asked Texas to chime in the gte aston which he did a few pages back. He's the aston guy you need to talk to. I messaged Samsung also. He will give you data on bentley. We are at spa practicing tonight. We have some guys that any good ginetta guys could come benchmark against. Would be a good spot to judge it against quick guys.

If the ginetra could compete we would of seen it, it hasn't raced once and everyone loves driving it. It's just not a car that's show's up to races and it's not from being unliked.

Will need to be running 2:17s to 2:19s to find a spot in field over 10 and 20 lap practices. There will be 2:16s in qualification at spa.

Diamond_Eyes
11-02-2016, 14:38
I just think there needs to be a Set of Parameters to get real results. Tune, TOD, Weather, Track, Car, # of Laps. Otherwise I feel like we are analyzing false data. If I have some time Ill throw up some laps on TT just to see how my Tunes/No Assists compare.

Can you just do the BoP from bench tests? I mean Jussi you already have the power curves. Try and establish the max cornering G for each car under under its lowest, mid and highest downforce. 0-200kph-0...? Otherwise, you'll disappear up into b-hole in doomed quest to seek pure parity.

Fight-Test
11-02-2016, 14:41
All the cars can run softs for a tank of fuel so the strategy unfortunately doesn't factor much in the races as long as you can make softs last for the entire tank. To clarify, how long you can make that tank and softs is the strategy based on length of race. (Wasn't saying there isn't strategy just unfortunately the time lost on meds makes double stinting pointless.)

Much harder to pass in corners and easy to keep car behind and keep gaining more and more in straight.

dodge33cymru
11-02-2016, 15:44
As I said, the BoP is decided in just ONE weekend (FIA regulations). No wonder there are so many complains from many manufacturers.

As above, they have one annual test where the control driver gets to try each car and gather data, but there's plenty of info to base it on outside that.

However, of course there are complaints; so long as everyone is complaining I think they're doing a great job!

Pedroeol
11-02-2016, 16:09
This is great, awesome job with the sheet. Really enjoyed watching those and I can say I'm really interested in this topic.

I just would like to say that the comparisons can be somewhat off as the times recorded were done under different times and patches. For comparing times you would need to run the laps in same conditions, same assists, same patch.

I can honestly say that most cars are very well balanced, all different with strenghts and weaknesses and it involves a lot more factors when picking a car for a competition/league, some cars are better in one-lap, others are better in longer stints and the list goes on.

I don't post much here but I would like to help if you guys need something, I'm more of a reader in this forum and from time to time I like to come here and check the topics I'm interested in.

Pedroeol
11-02-2016, 16:31
I'll also post this here and hopefully you guys find it usefull. I made this testing last month, all cars under same conditions for longer races and all set by me, you guys should read the description box for more info, inbefore Ginetta and GTE times are seriously taken in consideration, I do think this track doesn't favour those cars at all as their weak point is the accell and Monza you need both top speed and acceleration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kg_CH-wxAI

My new video comparing the two Aston Martins at Spa, both recorded in Time Trial without any assists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA4BTJJERMs

sp3ctor
11-02-2016, 21:33
I'm a pretty slow driver compared to others online but I'd be willing to give it a shot. I normally drive the Mclaren because I've actually driven those in real life. I tried the Bentley last night and it was like driving a whale. I was also drinking though, so... Sort of a n00b question here but is there a way on PC to look at all of your lap times after driving an hour or am I going to have to write this down after each lap.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 21:35
One way would be to use an external telemetry program to log your lap times.

sp3ctor
11-02-2016, 21:45
Right but...

I'm not sure how many actual times we are talking in each car, but if there are enough times then all this stuff should balance out. So, in theory, you are going to have fast guys who use aids, some fast guys who don't, slow guys who use aids, slow guys who don't and so on. Yeah, it would be ideal to have the exact same setup on different tracks (ie: no aids, no damage, X amount of fuel to start) but unless you have a bunch of people doing this then your second best option is simply having a bunch of different people running laps.

It's been a while since I took stats but I would think (if SMS could get this data automatically) they could do a pretty good job balancing things appropriately based on a massive amount of data. Assuming they know all the parameters on a given car, they could simply set up some linear regressions and see where things fall then adjust within the parameters of the car.

e23belen
12-02-2016, 03:07
I posted this opinion on the tuning forum: I'm on the same page as Jussi, the Aston underperforms in the corners. Furthermore, I'm convinced it's a combination of the wrong tires and a minimum ride height that's too high. Please compare yourselves the M3 and the Aston, two GTE class cars around Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, and Silverstone GP. I think this needs another set of eyes on it.

TexasTyme214
12-02-2016, 04:24
The Aston does look higher up than the M3 by a lot, but I get the best performance with even higher ride height?

McKiernan
12-02-2016, 16:56
So now that Patch 9 has made some adjustments to the dampers on the Aston GTE to make it better in the corners, I wonder how this will effect it's competitiveness?

AbeWoz
12-02-2016, 16:58
So now that Patch 9 has made some adjustments to the dampers on the Aston GTE to make it better in the corners, I wonder how this will effect it's competitiveness?

made changes to the AI....

• Aston Martin GTE - adjusted the AI suspension damper rates down to better handle curbs

McKiernan
12-02-2016, 17:20
made changes to the AI....

• Aston Martin GTE - adjusted the AI suspension damper rates down to better handle curbs

I shoulda gone to Specsavers :D

e23belen
12-02-2016, 17:35
Can anyone with the PC version confirm if the Aston has gotten any BoP changes? Weight, ride height, restrictor, etc.? I know little is mentioned on the official patch notes, but last patch increased restrictor a bit with no mention of it.

Shadowoff
13-02-2016, 09:33
Lets wait and hope for the patch with the DLC... Hopefully they will re-balance the cars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-02-2016, 10:55
Can anyone with the PC version confirm if the Aston has gotten any BoP changes? Weight, ride height, restrictor, etc.? I know little is mentioned on the official patch notes, but last patch increased restrictor a bit with no mention of it.It didn't increase the restrictor size based on anything I can find out, it's always been 29.5 mm max since the start.

BrightDark
15-02-2016, 19:55
PS4, Hockenheim, Ginetta G55 GT3, TT. #276 and #281.

227622

graveltrap
15-02-2016, 21:01
I have been doing some TT with the Aston GTE

Silverstone GP 1:59.954 (time in the spreadsheet is from a qualifying session I believe)
Nurburgring GP 1:56.754

Next up will be Imola, I've seen 1:43.5xx in free practice so far.

I have to say it's a fantastic beast to drive but it is demoralising when you realise how slow it's going! I would expect the super fast to be 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap faster depending on circuit length.

I also ran the Bentley GT3 @ Silverstone GP and saw a 1:59.984 it was proper hard work for me to break into the 59s with that car!

M4MKey
15-02-2016, 22:25
Having a race tomorrow on Zuhai with my league. Did some training with concurrents tonight. Was able to do some 1:32.5s times with 80+ liters of fuel with my Bentley. A equally skilled driver on an Aston was doing 1:31.4s also with 85l of fuel.

During quali sessions. Managed to drop to 1:31.5.
He was 1:30.6.

And I already know that on Monza, this is gonna be even worse ( because yes, we'll do this track too ).

We're currently talking to be able to change cars because honestly SMS... You did an aweful job of balancing the three car Jussi is pointing out.

AndrexUK
16-02-2016, 11:44
Hey Jussi, great post, and I do hope SMS do change things as a result.

We have our last race in AOR league on Wednesday, and probably a couple of weeks break till Season 4.
I'll be doing a lot of car testing before S4, and would be happy to compare and provide the results.
I'll try to get some of the other AOR guys to do the same.
I may wait till the Caddy + Vette can be compared too.

For sure, those 'slow' cars are not as slow as most think. and I was (am) tempted with taking one for next season, just to prove this!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 11:46
Indeed, they're not completely hopeless, especially the Ginetta can be really quick when driven right (which admittedly can be a lot more difficult than it is for many of the other cars), but it's clear there's a gap in performance regardless, and especially in the case of the Bentley and Aston GTE it is a bit unclear how big of a gap it is right now.

M4MKey
16-02-2016, 12:00
Of course they're not. I'm driving the Bentley since the start of the championship and I started 2 races after the beginning of the season. The car was also already nerfed. Still... I'm 3rd on the standings. ( and behind by only 20pts ( almost half of what the 1st place gets )).

Cars aren't hopeless if you are a better driver than your opponent... I was able to maintain my position and be almost everytime 2nd or 1st in races. Mainly because those tracks were twisty ones and needed a lot of work to drive the perfect line constantly.

But right now, we're arriving on tracks that are way less technical, and need lot of power ( Monza, Silverstone, Zuhai ). Those tracks still need to make apexes, of course... But whatever skill you have. You won't be able to withstand an Aston or an SLS in your back during the straights. And fact is... There is almost only straights on those tracks.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 12:19
Also have to say that a lot of these headaches, from a league perspective, could be largely handled if we had a way to enforce the wastegate and restrictor settings. All of the cars could be balanced by the users by using those settings, but you can't make sure everyone uses them. In a league where everyone knows each other you could always just trust them, but it's not the preferred solution.

Just saying, for pCARS 2, implementing forced restrictor, wastegate and preferably ballast rules (and possibly ride height as well) on a per car type basis (or even a per driver basis for weight) would go a long long way to solve stuff like this.

AndrexUK
16-02-2016, 13:24
Cars aren't hopeless if you are a better driver than your opponent...

Indeed, there has never been any dispute that any car can win a race, but that depends on factors outside of your control (the other drivers skill / ability / etc).
What Jussi is looking at, is to compare the pace of the 3 'slow' cars, against the others, where the driver is consistent.

I might be able to beat 90% of drivers at Monza using the Ginetta v all others, but that doesn't mean it's not balanced.
We are looking at having a driver set thier best lap times of multiple GT3 cars, and comparing them.
We need many ppl to do this, on many tracks, to work out an average gap in performance.
The Aston GTE might suit my driving style, and therefore, if my lap time was only 0.4 sec slower than my lap in an Aston V12 GT3, it would appear to be more competitive than in the hands of 90% of others. And vice versa!

I'll try to get F1-Masa to compare as well as some of the other fast guys in AOR! (I'm sure Yorkie would be happy to help out)

I'm due Mini Human #2 very shortly, so my seat time may be very limited, but I'll do as much as I can.

As far as the TT records go, some of those older ones will be using the older tyre modelling / camber exploit, so need to be ruled out. (which will unfortuanly limit the number of valid slow car times, due to their lack of popularity :( )

One thing to note though, is that there will always be 1 car that is looked at as being the fastest, and also the slowest. But I hope this trial will help lessen the spread!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 13:39
I wasn't aware that the camber fix had made the cars any slower though? I'd actually heard several people say the opposite.

AndrexUK
16-02-2016, 14:16
well, there was a reason it needed to be fixed :)
Cars were faster before it was changed. (speaking for myself, and quite a few others that believe the same).
Either way, for the most accurate results, we should use lap times from recent patches, or ideally as of the last patch.

bradleyland
16-02-2016, 14:59
Also have to say that a lot of these headaches, from a league perspective, could be largely handled if we had a way to enforce the wastegate and restrictor settings. All of the cars could be balanced by the users by using those settings, but you can't make sure everyone uses them. In a league where everyone knows each other you could always just trust them, but it's not the preferred solution.

Just saying, for pCARS 2, implementing forced restrictor, wastegate and preferably ballast rules (and possibly ride height as well) on a per car type basis (or even a per driver basis for weight) would go a long long way to solve stuff like this.

I'd like this three times if I could. I'd add that even amongst people you trust, the temptation to cheat is simply too strong for some people to bear.

I played Battlefield 2 (yeah, waaay back then) with an English fellow named Tony, who I would have trusted my life with. He had all the attributes you look for in a teammate. He was an excellent player and the kind of guy who was always supporting team objectives. If you called out that you were in trouble, Tony was always on his way to bail you out. He'd always volunteer to take on the unglamorous tasks, like defending back-lines where your score would be low, but was critical to holding territory.

At some point, it was discovered that he was using a cheat that made enemy players visible through walls, as well as an aimbot. The group was devastated. Here's a guy that everyone liked and trusted, but who simply couldn't resist the temptation to cheat. When confronted with the matter, he first tried to deny it, but eventually broke down and made a few runs at rationalizing his behavior.

It's a shame, but unless BoP can be enforced by the server, I don't have any confidence that individual players will be able to police themselves consistently.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 15:10
well, there was a reason it needed to be fixed :)
Cars were faster before it was changed. (speaking for myself, and quite a few others that believe the same).
Either way, for the most accurate results, we should use lap times from recent patches, or ideally as of the last patch.The issue as I recall it was that people were getting too much of a rolling resistance advantage when running no camber, and the biggest single thing the fix did was lower the rolling resistance when using appropriate amounts of camber, so it should have brought camber speeds up to previous levels, not bring everything back down to the levels you got with camber prior to the fix.

AndrexUK
16-02-2016, 15:17
If that's the case (and it very well may be!) then fair enough, but I don't recall being able to match my lap times after that fix.
I had been doing a lot (and I mean a LOT) of Le-mans laps around the time of the fix, I I seam to recall (although my memory is terribad!) that I was about 1 / 2 seconds a lap slower afterwards.
Again, I probably trust your knowledge over mine.

MrBlacky
16-02-2016, 15:28
As far as I can tell cars do still have the same pace as 3 or 4 month ago (that means before camber fix).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 15:33
I could well be wrong, but I haven't heard much if anything that'd lean that way. Many of the times are old, but that could well be because the people who made them were really quick and haven't been challenged since, and haven't bothered to try and outdo themselves. Some times like the fastest RGT-8 GT3 time on Nürburgring was done this year, and the second fastest was done after the camber fix patch came in as well, so either the previous record was weak or the car's speed hasn't really changed that much.

I do agree though, this is an issue when the only times I have easy access to consist of one fastest lap for any car/track combo by a specific driver. I would have hoped that there'd been more wipes for the leaderboards when big updates rolled in.

AndrexUK
16-02-2016, 15:48
Yes, as much as it would have lost data to compare (as I most have already formed an opinion on the slower cars, and therefore not even try them), The board is in serious need of a wipe / reset.
I'm trying to remember if the TT's were cleared after the cut track system was improved.

Again, since a lot of the TT records only show a driver posting a time in 1 car, and not another, it's very difficult to compare the laptimes. The driver may post a competitive laptime in the Aston GTE, but doesn't reflect that he can post a Alien time in another GT3 car and thus is GTE lap is actually abnormal.

But, we can only do what we can, and I'm very sure that the results will point to them being off the pace.

I really hope that Vette (and Caddy) are going to be viable choices on release!

KANETAKER
16-02-2016, 16:09
If that's the case (and it very well may be!) then fair enough, but I don't recall being able to match my lap times after that fix.
I had been doing a lot (and I mean a LOT) of Le-mans laps around the time of the fix, I I seam to recall (although my memory is terribad!) that I was about 1 / 2 seconds a lap slower afterwards.
Again, I probably trust your knowledge over mine.

Following that correction I lost 1-2 seconds per lap compared to my best times at LeMans with RWD P30 LMP1. Before I can doing 3:19.1 (and I wanted to down until 3:18) but now I find it very difficult to get 3:21, and I've tried everything, changing all the parameters of setting and achieving not find a way to recover those two seconds I lost without sacrificing top speed in long straights.

Besides, I could before reaching the 337 Km/h with race configuration, but now I barely manage to reach 330-331 km/h with the same configuration, and can't find a way for my RWD P30 can return to be as fast as before. The zeroing the radiator, as well as reducing vents brake only serves to Qualify, but for long races the engine explode and brakes overheat.

I'd feel better if someone could please tell me what other setting parameters could be modified for get more top speed on the long straights at Lemans but not touching the downforce or the radiator and brakes. And what would now be the correct angle of fall for speed on the straights without losing grip on the Porsche curves of the 3rd sector at LeMans circuit?

Thank you.

PD: Avoid mentioning the Mojave oval, oval that only serves to test and useless in that oval high speeds can be achieved if on the contrary there is no way to apply it in the race at any circuit. If SMS could give a version of the LeMans/Monza tracks without chicanes?

havocc
16-02-2016, 17:55
Following that correction I lost 1-2 seconds per lap compared to my best times at LeMans with RWD P30 LMP1. Before I can doing 3:19.1 (and I wanted to down until 3:18) but now I find it very difficult to get 3:21, and I've tried everything, changing all the parameters of setting and achieving not find a way to recover those two seconds I lost without sacrificing top speed in long straights.

Besides, I could before reaching the 337 Km/h with race configuration, but now I barely manage to reach 330-331 km/h with the same configuration, and can't find a way for my RWD P30 can return to be as fast as before. The zeroing the radiator, as well as reducing vents brake only serves to Qualify, but for long races the engine explode and brakes overheat.

I'd feel better if someone could please tell me what other setting parameters could be modified for get more top speed on the long straights at Lemans but not touching the downforce or the radiator and brakes. And what would now be the correct angle of fall for speed on the straights without losing grip on the Porsche curves of the 3rd sector at LeMans circuit?

Thank you.

PD: Avoid mentioning the Mojave oval, oval that only serves to test and useless in that oval high speeds can be achieved if on the contrary there is no way to apply it in the race at any circuit. If SMS could give a version of the LeMans/Monza tracks without chicanes?

Go for 0 front and rear toe

CrustyA
16-02-2016, 18:24
I've been doing a few laps with the Aston GTE over the weekend to help the cause.

It's a mixed bag as to how fast I am.

227664

KANETAKER
16-02-2016, 19:36
I've been doing a few laps with the Aston GTE over the weekend to help the cause.

It's a mixed bag as to how fast I am.

227664

Sorry but... Very slow laps in comparisson to others GT3 cars =( (1:49 vs 1:44 at Monza for example, or 2:21 vs 2:16 at SPA).


Go for 0 front and rear toe

I tried that and only got a couple of kilometers in top speed (from 330 to 332-333Km/h) as well as the car loses stability when cornering, especially at the night with cold tires. A way to compensate for that? The difficulty is that during the night the tires do not fall temperature of 90ºc, but during the day does not exceed 110-115ºc.

AbeWoz
16-02-2016, 19:48
Sorry but... Very slow laps in comparisson to others GT3 cars =( (1:49 vs 1:44 at Monza for example, or 2:21 vs 2:16 at SPA).



I tried that and only got a couple of kilometers in top speed (from 330 to 332-333Km/h) as well as the car loses stability when cornering, especially at the night with cold tires. A way to compensate for that? The difficulty is that during the night the tires do not fall temperature of 90ºc, but during the day does not exceed 110-115ºc.

thats part of the endurance strategy. softer compounds at night w/ different pressures and medium/hards during the day.

M4MKey
16-02-2016, 22:38
I really hope that Vette (and Caddy) are going to be viable choices on release!

I do hope so too... Because I want to get rid of my Bentley. But the Corvette doesn't seem to have ABS... So it's already not on par with other GT3.....

AbeWoz
16-02-2016, 23:45
I do hope so too... Because I want to get rid of my Bentley. But the Corvette doesn't seem to have ABS... So it's already not on par with other GT3.....

thats because its technically a GTE car. No ABS allowed if i recall correctly

M4MKey
17-02-2016, 11:56
Then maybe it shouldn't be in GT3 class ? If you already put it in a "wrong" class from the reality... At least give it the same treatment ?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
17-02-2016, 12:13
Then maybe it shouldn't be in GT3 class ? If you already put it in a "wrong" class from the reality... At least give it the same treatment ?You can always turn ABS on... Even league runners are totally free to allow all cars to run ABS whenever they want to (and IMO they should allow it when running all cars on the same field).

Raven403
17-02-2016, 14:15
Or force ABS off an make them all equal that way :p

AndrexUK
17-02-2016, 15:08
Well, that doesn't work imo, as my understanding, is that the car's are largely balanced by Driver Aids (such as ABS), so if you remove it from all, then cars that naturally don't have it, gain an advantage (normally, they don't have it, cause they don't need it).

AOR league runs without any driver Aids (will be available next season), and this season the M3 is the car to be in. Hence why F1-Masa / Khaki drive this car.

Raven403
17-02-2016, 15:30
Well, that doesn't work imo, as my understanding, is that the car's are largely balanced by Driver Aids (such as ABS), so if you remove it from all, then cars that naturally don't have it, gain an advantage (normally, they don't have it, cause they don't need it).

AOR league runs without any driver Aids (will be available next season), and this season the M3 is the car to be in. Hence why F1-Masa / Khaki drive this car.

Sorry but with no assists these cars all become much more equal and puts a way bigger emphasis on tune, and I've driven them all and I strongly disagree that the M3 is the "car to be in".

And correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't gt3 having assists more bc of the driver skill level in that series? And not about the actual cars? Either way ur logic is, that the m3 with ABS is the best car, and there's no way that's true.

balderz002
17-02-2016, 15:34
why not just say, 'no GTE or GT2 cars'? that way, all the cars use the same aids as standard?

Raven403
17-02-2016, 15:44
why not just say, 'no GTE or GT2 cars'? that way, all the cars use the same aids as standard?

Well you could, but even still the problem isn't the cars being in the game, it's the fact that they all don't adhere to the same rules, who cares what they do IRL because obviously you can't replicate it in this game as it stands, so, Bop them all to each other. Hence this entire discussion. Yes some cars are GTE irl, pcars isn't real life. The class in game is gt3, so spec each car to SMS GT3 spec and be done with it. Making everything adhere "somewhat" to rules in real life and expecting them all to be equal in the game is faulty logic. AndrexUK us right in that if the GTE cars are spec'd to race with no assists in THEORY they'd perform better than the GT3 cars that are spec'd to use them, so don't spec the GT2 GTE cars to adhere to GTE rules if there is no GTE class, just spec them to GT3 that's the class the game has

AndrexUK
17-02-2016, 16:12
Either way ur logic is, that the m3 with ABS is the best car, and there's no way that's true.

That's not what I said so please don't twist what was mentioned.... I said that since all the GT3 cars in our league are forced to not use ABS, then the M3 is the best car.
From my own time in the M3, the brakes are that good even without ABS, that the ABS system is not assisting the car to the same level as it does to the others.
Therefore, taking away that assistance, hurts the M3 much less than the other GT3 cars.
It's not purely about the brakes, the aero is very good too! and for these reason, I believe the M3 is the best car if all cars are not allowed Driver Aids.

And although it would look like a couple of ESL winners would agree with me, it might not suit all drivers, and therefore in your case, it might not be your best car without Aids.

Either way, it's starting to go a little off topic (although related), so I think we would all benefit from keeping this about the 'slow 3' - even if it was myself that started the M3 topic.


But I fully agree that if the cars are not placed into the correct classes, then they should be all balanced to run similar lap times (perhaps just achieving these laptimes in a different way).

graveltrap
17-02-2016, 16:30
GTE is not a no assist class, they allow traction control ;)

AbeWoz
17-02-2016, 16:44
w/ the corvette coming next week, I think its time they up the performance of the Aston GTE and make a separate class. Especially since Tommy Milner (Corvette factory driver/Le Mans winner for those who don't know) helped with the development of the C7.R for the game. They can move the M3 GT into that class too.

Raven403
17-02-2016, 17:22
That's not what I said so please don't twist what was mentioned.... I said that since all the GT3 cars in our league are forced to not use ABS, then the M3 is the best car.
From my own time in the M3, the brakes are that good even without ABS, that the ABS system is not assisting the car to the same level as it does to the others.
Therefore, taking away that assistance, hurts the M3 much less than the other GT3 cars.
It's not purely about the brakes, the aero is very good too! and for these reason, I believe the M3 is the best car if all cars are not allowed Driver Aids.

And although it would look like a couple of ESL winners would agree with me, it might not suit all drivers, and therefore in your case, it might not be your best car without Aids.

Either way, it's starting to go a little off topic (although related), so I think we would all benefit from keeping this about the 'slow 3' - even if it was myself that started the M3 topic.


But I fully agree that if the cars are not placed into the correct classes, then they should be all balanced to run similar lap times (perhaps just achieving these laptimes in a different way).

Apologies it was poorly worded on my part didnt mean to twist your words.

I get what you mean, like you said tho just hasnt been my experience in the M3, and that goes back to me not being an Excellent tuner, Im sure I could spend more time with it and get it to a point where id be happier with it but I still would take the Z4 over that thing any day. But regardless it all does tie in to what we're talkin about here, the BoP of all the cars in this class, either they all adhere to the same rules or they dont, you cant have all these different cars from different classes within GT racing and just expect them to be equal when your using different rules for each one.

If the game doesnt then league organizers certainly can by forcing certain assists, and I really do think it all comes down to tuning Prowess, some cars are easier to get faster times in out of the box, some take a player with a good amount of Tuning skill, and some players simply dont have it.

KANETAKER
17-02-2016, 17:46
There is a detail that I do not understand, and that is why the car in the time trial mode does not go faster than other modes, although no consumption of fuel and mechanical breakdowns. At least this occurs in the version of PC (Steam), most consoles do not know if the same thing happens.

227721

My best time in LeMans with Aston Martin Vantage V8 GTE was 3:56 minutes, even though in a normal race can do even 3:54 minutes faster than in trial mode, even though fuel consumption and mechanical faults are active (taking to open a little ventilation ducts radiator and brake cooling). Why?

Apparently a key factor is the heat engine in the trial mode does not seem hot enough despite having completely closed the radiators, and the temperature of the tires because in the trial mode is already configured session in time known as "happy hour", but the car's performance is not reflected as such. I can do better times with a warmer climate than when it is cool, even though the engine and the brakes are stretched.

graveltrap
17-02-2016, 17:57
Engine temperature is pre set for TT there is nothing you can do about it, the performance difference is from the rubber groove on the track, in TT it is set to something like 80 percent, in a race it is possible to have more grip than in TT mode. Other factors like temperature are fixed in TT as well so may not be the optimum conditions for the very best lap time.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
17-02-2016, 18:02
Also IIRC there's currently a problem with the brakes starting cold in TT?

graveltrap
17-02-2016, 18:09
At some point in time starting temp for the brakes was changed from hot to cold, so you now need a few corners to get them up to temperature .

KANETAKER
17-02-2016, 19:17
Engine temperature is pre set for TT there is nothing you can do about it, the performance difference is from the rubber groove on the track, in TT it is set to something like 80 percent, in a race it is possible to have more grip than in TT mode. Other factors like temperature are fixed in TT as well so may not be the optimum conditions for the very best lap time.

But it is rare than optimal conditions even though the session TT is set in the popular time slot of "Happy Hour" (6-7am) but in summer, when it is assumed conditions are optimal for squeezing the full potential of the car and the soft tires(cool weather helps prevent the engine blown up and brakes do not overheat).

In the next video better explain this issue of the "Happy Hour". Between minutes 0:47:36 and 0:49:19


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27F26UA1i6M&feature=youtu.be&t=47m36s


Moreover, if indeed the performance in TT mode is 1 or 2 seconds slower than in normal race modes, then as explained in the following image these incredible times of the first three places on the leaderboard at LeMans using the RWD P30 LMP1?

227732

I appear in 15th with 3:22 although in other modes achievement 3:20 - 3:21. And before I could do 3:19 until the arrival of the Updates 6.0 and 7.0 when SMS fixed the exploit of the Camber (no more advantage of top speed).
According to some players, both Mangator as WallStark not use cheats, but those times are still unobtainable by other fast players (included me); and most surprising is that if we look at the date on which got the time, they succeeded after correction of Camber exploit. So I do not understand where and how they managed to be faster than before in LeMans with P30?

And when you consider that in the TT mode the times are slower than in the other race modes, it means that (for example) can Mangator make 3:14 to 3:13 at LeMans with P30 ?? And yet they say that he does not use cheats?
I feel better if both Mangator (LMP1) and F1-Massa (GT3) share their car setups, so out of the question, and who knows, maybe found a possible (new) other exploit we do not know, because the truth is that those times 3:15 for LMP1 is unreal, if we consider that only in 2015 that it was able to get 3:16 but with a LMP1 2015 and over one that is not in the game (the Porsche 919 Hybrid).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBpVJGiTKcE

But I have understood that there want to share their settings with the community either through selfishness or simple FEAR that competition and competitors increase, since it is possible that other players with their own settings could match or even surpass their abilities/skills ... if indeed he does not use cheats.

BrightDark
17-02-2016, 21:24
PS4, Hockenheim, Aston Martin GTE, TT. #269.

227744

AndrexUK
18-02-2016, 08:22
Another reason for TT mode producing slower times, is that it does seam to be more strict on corner cutting, so in other modes, you may be able to shave of some time compared to TT.
Again, we are kind of getting Off Topic, and I feel that the original point of this thread is too important to be deviating from testing the 'slow trio'. Yes it is related for sure, but we really want to be collecting results for Jussi, so he can present them to SMS.

By all means, I think this is a valid subject to discuss, but perhaps it deserves it's own thread (or I suspect there probably already is one)
For the Record F1-Masa recently changed to SDL-Masa (Khaki also wore the SDL tag for a period of time recently too) que X-Files theme tune!

dghdh
18-02-2016, 10:44
This is all done on PS4.

I know that the cars on PC could be about 1-2 seconds quicker per lap (considering what track it is). And these times were very close or better than those done on PC.
http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/
There are time to gain on all of these laps (of cours), but I'm very happy with them none the less.

227780

There's at least one person who has gone faster (#740), but I thought I'd put it in here anyway.
227781

I think I could decrease this time by about 3-4 tenhts. I think it's the temperature in the tires or brakes that makes the difference.
227782


Here aswell. About 3 tenhts to gain, but the cerbs killed it everytime. :P
227783

Pedroeol
18-02-2016, 11:18
Another reason for TT mode producing slower times, is that it does seam to be more strict on corner cutting, so in other modes, you may be able to shave of some time compared to TT.
Again, we are kind of getting Off Topic, and I feel that the original point of this thread is too important to be deviating from testing the 'slow trio'. Yes it is related for sure, but we really want to be collecting results for Jussi, so he can present them to SMS.

Usually I'm slower in TT than in Multiplayer mode and I consider that normal and not only because of the cutting thing, the conditions are just different than in Multiplayer mode, you can't compare both imo.

Jussi would you mind adding Snetterton 300 to the data sheet? I think it's a track that requires a good balance in the car and cars with good mechanical grip have some advantage there.

AndrexUK
18-02-2016, 11:42
I'm not sure what Jussi's plan is for this (although fairly obvious to a degree) and I think you guys posting GTE / G55 / etc times is fantastic!

But it doesn't really show the cars performance imo, unless you are providing a comparison.
I can do high 1:44's at Monza in the Ginetta, (before I lost my profile and all my setups last week - gg sms)... and for the most part, that would make it look fairly competitive, until I mention I managed a high 1:42 in the Audi.

I understand it is essentially doubling (if not more) the amount of work you are doing, but it would be great if ppl would be able to provide something along those lines.
I don't want to hijack Jussi's idea, but if for 2 or 3 tracks (a spread of high / medium / low Downforce tracks ideally) drivers could post their 'Slow car' lap time, as well as a 'fast car' laptime to compare it too, it will provide a better idea of how much of a gap there is between the cars.

Don't get me wrong, posting just the 'slow car' laptimes IS very helpful!, but I don't think there will be enough laptimes posted to give an accurate idea of each of the slow cars pace.

Something like:
Brno:
BMW Z4 Laptime: x:xx.xxx
Ginetta G55 Laptime: x:xx.xxx

Barcalona:
BMW Z4 Laptime: x:xx.xxx
Ginetta G55 Laptime: x:xx.xxx

Monza:
BMW Z4 Laptime: x:xx.xxx
Ginetta G55 Laptime: x:xx.xxx

Then we can look at the gaps and say "The Ginetta G55 is consistantly 5% off the pace" / "The Aston GTE is 8% off the pace" / etc

Jussi, feel free to share your view on this, and correct / advise ppl to ignore this if this is not what you are looking for.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 12:01
Jussi would you mind adding Snetterton 300 to the data sheet? I think it's a track that requires a good balance in the car and cars with good mechanical grip have some advantage there.I'd rather not for the simple reason that it's not a track that very many people play. We're already struggling with a lack of information overall, adding a track that has about 20% of the lap times of the other tracks isn't perhaps the best path to go down, even if it was a good track.


I'm not sure what Jussi's plan is for this (although fairly obvious to a degree) and I think you guys posting GTE / G55 / etc times is fantastic!

But it doesn't really show the cars performance imo, unless you are providing a comparison.
I can do high 1:44's at Monza in the Ginetta, (before I lost my profile and all my setups last week - gg sms)... and for the most part, that would make it look fairly competitive, until I mention I managed a high 1:42 in the Audi.

I understand it is essentially doubling (if not more) the amount of work you are doing, but it would be great if ppl would be able to provide something along those lines.
I don't want to hijack Jussi's idea, but if for 2 or 3 tracks (a spread of high / medium / low Downforce tracks ideally) drivers could post their 'Slow car' lap time, as well as a 'fast car' laptime to compare it too, it will provide a better idea of how much of a gap there is between the cars.

Don't get me wrong, posting just the 'slow car' laptimes IS very helpful!, but I don't think there will be enough laptimes posted to give an accurate idea of each of the slow cars pace.

Something like:
Brno:
BMW Z4 Laptime: x:xx.xxx
Ginetta G55 Laptime: x:xx.xxx

Barcalona:
BMW Z4 Laptime: x:xx.xxx
Ginetta G55 Laptime: x:xx.xxx

Monza:
BMW Z4 Laptime: x:xx.xxx
Ginetta G55 Laptime: x:xx.xxx

Then we can look at the gaps and say "The Ginetta G55 is consistantly 5% off the pace" / "The Aston GTE is 8% off the pace" / etc

Jussi, feel free to share your view on this, and correct / advise ppl to ignore this if this is not what you are looking for.You're not wrong, if someone can't improve the record of any of the 3 cars then a comparison to what they can achieve with the faster ones would be immensely helpful, that I totally agree with.

The main reason I'm asking for the slow cars specifically (and especially seeing if people can improve the current lap records) is because the less cars a given person drives the more time they can devote to improving their performance in that car. This really isn't about what sort of times people can get with the cars with the default setups, or what they can get out of them when jumping quickly from one car to the other, it's about trying to find the limits of performance for these cars, which requires some amount of dedication.

This is also why I didn't ask for everyone to drive everything. To get at the level I'd most like to see I'd prefer the amount of time spent per car to be measured in hours (total), not tens of minutes. With 10 cars this would quickly get out of hand.

There's also the issue of car suitability to different drivers and how much the car punishes you from not driving it to the limit. I'm personally of the opinion that even if most people were slower in a certain car than they are in others, if the car can still match the others toe to toe with a sufficiently good/suitable driver (this assumes the other cars have such drivers as well) then it's balanced correctly. This is because I think that if the car was balanced to get the average driver who can't properly utilize the car to go as quickly in it as they can in the others, the car would gain too much in the hands of really good drivers and become too fast in their hands. So basically what I'm saying is I'd like to see the balancing be based more on the fastest drivers, not the average drivers. As an extreme example my friend manages quite even times with most of the GT3 cars, but simply doesn't get along at all with the Z4, often being several seconds slower with it. If the Z4 was balanced based on his driving it'd be grossly unbalanced overall.

All that said:

Everyone: If you can manage the time and the effort required, please do by all means post comparative times from cars you're faster with on the same tracks!

Pedroeol
18-02-2016, 12:07
Great post AndrexUK, I'd just add the restriction of aids used in order to have a proper comparison.

AndrexUK
18-02-2016, 12:25
Indeed, provide as much info as possible for the test conditions
TT mode / Free practice / track temp / time of day / driver aids used (personal opinion that this should really be set to Real, but can disable unwanted ones).

I have a Bathurst race tomorrow, which will give the Turbo'd Bentley an advantage compared other tracks, but I will include the car testing results anyway.
And then this weekend, I will test almost all of the GT3 cars, so will be able to provide a decent amount of data to compare.

I'm not Masa fast, but really, I've not seen anyone really be able to compete against him in our league (10/10 poles this season). But I don't consider myself slow.
More than happy to post my results on here for everyone to laugh at.

AndrexUK
18-02-2016, 12:29
Just a 'outside the box' thought, but would creating a full grid of AI, and give them an hours qually time give a good representation?
There must be differences between each AI driver to a small extent, but it might be a alternative way of a Qually time overview? The drivers would be fairly consistant.
The only thing missing would be the tuning aspect of getting the best out of the car, as I suspect AI use default setups?

I'm more than sure our own personal results would be more useful, but it might be extra data that might be of some use?

Raven403
18-02-2016, 12:49
Just a 'outside the box' thought, but would creating a full grid of AI, and give them an hours qually time give a good representation?
There must be differences between each AI driver to a small extent, but it might be a alternative way of a Qually time overview? The drivers would be fairly consistant.
The only thing missing would be the tuning aspect of getting the best out of the car, as I suspect AI use default setups?

I'm more than sure our own personal results would be more useful, but it might be extra data that might be of some use?

Honestly, No. I dont think anything the AI does can be relied on based on what I've seen. they arent restricted by the same things the player is either.

The best thing to do honestly is what you suggested earlier and what someone else posted a video of, an actual Comparison of the Ginetta to Something else. Its the only way to know. The same parameters for each, run 10 laps each and take the average or the best lap, and compare. And point of fact there should be a set TUNE for eveyone to use in the test, but that wont happen from the fastest guys

Also, you could just set up a Online Practice lobby and get a few people together to test it all in Real time. Might be the best thing actually.

AndrexUK
18-02-2016, 13:52
Fair point, the only reason I considered it, was that the AI should be consistent, which would be a desirable attribute for testing purposes.
Even if they are doing the wrong things, they will be doing the wrong things consistently, regardless of other factors (car / track / etc).

I still think our own real world testing would give the best results. I was just looking at it from a different angle to reduce the player skill / ability factor out of the equation.

Shadowoff
18-02-2016, 13:53
Maybe a little off topic, but as I took a look who liked this thread/first post, I saw that NO moderator liked this thread? Are they against the re-balance?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 15:06
Just a 'outside the box' thought, but would creating a full grid of AI, and give them an hours qually time give a good representation?
There must be differences between each AI driver to a small extent, but it might be a alternative way of a Qually time overview? The drivers would be fairly consistant.
The only thing missing would be the tuning aspect of getting the best out of the car, as I suspect AI use default setups?

I'm more than sure our own personal results would be more useful, but it might be extra data that might be of some use?AI uses different physics from the player car (the game simply could not run while calculating full accuracy physics for all cars, when it can struggle with just one), so no.


Honestly, No. I dont think anything the AI does can be relied on based on what I've seen. they arent restricted by the same things the player is either.

The best thing to do honestly is what you suggested earlier and what someone else posted a video of, an actual Comparison of the Ginetta to Something else. Its the only way to know. The same parameters for each, run 10 laps each and take the average or the best lap, and compare. And point of fact there should be a set TUNE for eveyone to use in the test, but that wont happen from the fastest guys

Also, you could just set up a Online Practice lobby and get a few people together to test it all in Real time. Might be the best thing actually.10 laps is IMO barely enough for a warm up, maybe 10 best laps after some hours of getting to grips with the car and making a setup that suits you.

And I don't think the setup should be the same for everyone, people often dislike setups that work for others so there's no point in forcing a specific setup. The only thing the setup should do is be as quick as possible for the player driving it.

flatspunout
18-02-2016, 16:01
Maybe a little off topic, but as I took a look who liked this thread/first post, I saw that NO moderator liked this thread? Are they against the re-balance?
This. What is SMS' official stance on the current balance of the GT3 cars? Seems like an awful lot of volunteer work to have the devs say "meh, we're good thanks".

balderz002
18-02-2016, 16:13
Maybe a little off topic, but as I took a look who liked this thread/first post, I saw that NO moderator liked this thread? Are they against the re-balance?

Do you mean mod or dev?

BrightDark
18-02-2016, 17:06
My plan here is to push the Aston GTE to a (for me) reasonable limit on a selected few of theese tracks, and then repeat the job with either the Z4 GT3 or the RUF GT3.

I also have made a base setup for the Ginetta (for dghdh/raskemenn4444) and the Bentley (for a third driver), and I just had to give the Ginetta a try at Hockenheim the other day :o Maybe on more tracks, with both cars, when I'm done with the Aston and the Z4/RUF :)

I use TT mode, because track-limits and conditions should be identical for different cars on each track. As far as I know, the game allows for the track to be "rubbed in" with may cars doing laps, and thus provide more grip. So practice (after many laps) or races can give higher grip-levels. Also, the track limits are less strickt in practice, and maybe in races.

BTW, I use ABS "on", no other aids in TT-mode. I have Damage "on" and Mechanical Failure "off".

cluck
18-02-2016, 17:27
I don't know if this helps at all Jussi, but I had to run a lap of Silverstone in a GT3 car of my choosing for an upcoming league race. I decided to just go ahead and run a lap in all of the GT3 cars with their default setups. Now although I have barely driven any of them and rarely drive the Silverstone circuit, my first couple of laps were all within, at most, 1-2 seconds of each other. I then checked the leaderboards and almost all of the WRs for the GT3 cars hover around the 1m57.xxx time.

For what it's worth, these were the times I did after just a couple of laps in each car (I think I did the most laps in the Ginetta, but no more than 6). Default setup across the board, no driver aids.


Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3 : 2:01.907
Audi R8 LMS Ultra : 2:01.563
Bentley Continental GT3 : 2:02.206
BMW Z4 GT3 : 2:01.731
Ginetta G55 GT3 : 2:02.183
McLaren 12C GT3 : 2:02.219
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3 : 2:02.041
Ruf RGT-8 GT3 : 2:01.632


Now of course, with some practice and some tweaks to the setups, I could get all of those times down but what struck me was that, despite each car feeling very different, my slowest laptime was just 0.7s slower than my fastest.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 17:33
Thanks for the effort cluck, but the default setups on some cars aren't quite up to snuff compared to what the cars are really capable of with some adjustments, and I'm not really interested in how well balanced the default setups are, the important thing is what the cars are ultimately capable of. =)

cluck
18-02-2016, 17:36
No worries Jussi (and it wasn't for this thread that I did that test, I did the laps anyway just to see if I had a favourite out of the cars for the league race). It did interest me, however, just how similar the current WR laptimes are at Silverstone for the GT3 cars. I can't remember which were the slowest but I do remember seeing almost all of them in the mid-1m57.xxx area.

If I wasn't busy with other stuff (and maybe had a clue what I was doing with setups) I'd gladly try and help out. But I really don't have the dedication required - I positively loathe messing with car setups :o.

Raven403
18-02-2016, 17:49
10 laps is IMO barely enough for a warm up, maybe 10 best laps after some hours of getting to grips with the car and making a setup that suits you.

And I don't think the setup should be the same for everyone, people often dislike setups that work for others so there's no point in forcing a specific setup. The only thing the setup should do is be as quick as possible for the player driving it.

I meant 10 laps after you have a tune on it, not 10 total. I just mostly mean you need a group of data to actually compare and weed out anomolies. The tune thing I only mention in the interest of eliminating variables. To really get the most out of these cars you need a good tune on them, because i've seen it before and a Well tuned Ginetta will be faster than a barely tuned Z4, so it is a variable.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 18:06
I meant 10 laps after you have a tune on it, not 10 total. I just mostly mean you need a group of data to actually compare and weed out anomolies. The tune thing I only mention in the interest of eliminating variables. To really get the most out of these cars you need a good tune on them, because i've seen it before and a Well tuned Ginetta will be faster than a barely tuned Z4, so it is a variable.Yeah, a good tune that suits you is important, which is why I've been advocating spending time with the cars and tuning them since the start. =)

Bealdor
18-02-2016, 18:52
Maybe a little off topic, but as I took a look who liked this thread/first post, I saw that NO moderator liked this thread? Are they against the re-balance?

That's totally not true!


:p

beetes_juice
18-02-2016, 20:26
Jumping on the Silverstone GP train will its being talked about:

There is a nice little battle going on in TT in the Aston GTE @ Silverstone GP; small board but the top 5 times are quick. #1 has switched 5+ times this week. Shadowolf had #1 for a few days, I had it after him, turbo beat me yesterday, I beat turbo last night, and turbo and mulkkensson beat me today. :p

Great laps turbo+mulkkensson. Times are finally down in the 1.59.9xx.

Anyone looking for a TT combo to run I'd say give the Aston GTE @ Silverstone GP a go. Spa's another good TT for the car to. ;)

*All on pc

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 20:44
Great to hear. I've updated my spreadsheet (no use posting it yet with so few changes though). =)

Shadowoff
18-02-2016, 21:31
Currently also some nice fighting between me and Darth_Kanetaker at Le Mans in the GTE. Just a 0.041 sec. gap. Wasnt able to drive TT today, but tomorrow I'm gonna have my lead back :D I think a 3.55.xxx is possible there

MrBlacky
18-02-2016, 22:01
It's very hard to get the ultimate pace of each GT3 car. You need to find the fastest driver for each of these cars and let them hotlap on the same tracks & conditions. Repeat this for 10 different track and take the average time. This would be the only way of finding the true pace of these cars. But first find someone who is an "expert" in the Ginetta for example. I bet there is no one. Or at least no one reading this thread.


But first off you can take a look in the Spa time trail. Most of these GT3 times are pushed to the limit. And there you will notice that the M3 and the Audi are superior on this specific track.

Marakusu
18-02-2016, 22:13
Managed to drive 1:59:761 at Silverstone in Aston GTE, thanks to a good sector 2.
Hmm, for some reason leaderboard informs that I'm using ABS which I'm not.
My assists are set to real, I thought that GTE cars don't use ABS.

e23belen
18-02-2016, 23:19
Here's an interesting source for 2015 IMSA GTLM BoP. This article has a link to an IMSA document stating the BoP for GTD and GTLM for COTA September of last year. Notice that 30mm restrictor on the Aston and 1190kg minimum weight. Also notice the minimum weight of the Corvette. I think these are some interesting numbers that Casey should consider if the Aston ever gets some loving. I'm also of the idea that the Aston is 3mm too high on ride height. But I only have one document backing me up on that.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/imsa-adds-weight-to-porsche-911-rsr-for-cota/

e23belen
18-02-2016, 23:29
Managed to drive 1:59:761 at Silverstone in Aston GTE, thanks to a good sector 2.
Hmm, for some reason leaderboard informs that I'm using ABS which I'm not.
My assists are set to real, I thought that GTE cars don't use ABS.

Do you have a tune for the car in the database? I'm currently doing low 2:01s with a modified version of graveltrap's tune. I'd like to get at least three tenths of a second off my times and finally dip into the 2:00s.

Currently just piggybacking off other people's tunes and feedback.

Marakusu
18-02-2016, 23:35
Do you have a tune for the car in the database? I'm currently doing low 2:01s with a modified version of graveltrap's tune. I'd like to get at least three tenths of a second off my times and finally dip into the 2:00s.

Currently just piggybacking off other people's tunes and feedback.

I don't have the tune in the database yet, but I will add it later today.
I just added the tune, check here: http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/148967211

beetes_juice
19-02-2016, 00:05
Managed to drive 1:59:761 at Silverstone in Aston GTE, thanks to a good sector 2.
Hmm, for some reason leaderboard informs that I'm using ABS which I'm not.
My assists are set to real, I thought that GTE cars don't use ABS.

Leaderboard seems to not take in the correct assists that are used.

May need a correction but if you set the assists to on in settings then individually turn each assist off/on (GTE uses traction if I'm not mistaken) it will show correct on the board.


Do you have a tune for the car in the database? I'm currently doing low 2:01s with a modified version of graveltrap's tune. I'd like to get at least three tenths of a second off my times and finally dip into the 2:00s.

Currently just piggybacking off other people's tunes and feedback.

Not directed at me but just a little food for thought. Basically using the same tune that graveltrap posted with a few changes here and there. If your getting down in the low 2.01's with your current setup you can reach low 2.00's-1.59's. Silverstone is all about maggots becketts chapel. So much time is gained and lost there.

Marakusu
19-02-2016, 09:29
Leaderboard seems to not take in the correct assists that are used.

May need a correction but if you set the assists to on in settings then individually turn each assist off/on (GTE uses traction if I'm not mistaken) it will show correct on the board.


Yes, I have mapped the ABS and traction control buttons in my wheel; I can disable tc, but when I press ABS button game informs that ABS is not available. But still leaderboard tells that I'm using it...oh well, I guess that I better turn them all off in the game options.

beetes_juice
19-02-2016, 15:09
Yes, I have mapped the ABS and traction control buttons in my wheel; I can disable tc, but when I press ABS button game informs that ABS is not available. But still leaderboard tells that I'm using it...oh well, I guess that I better turn them all off in the game options.

Not sure if this helps but maybe try just changing the assists off/on in the settings menu rather then switching with the button mapping in-game. That's what I'm doing and it seems to stick to the boards.

*Side Note: Know you said this on the last page but man your sector 2 time @ Silverstone is beast. You can definitely go faster in S1 though; especially Abby and taking the slower entry line into T2 for the exit speed down wellington. Did get your time last night with a 1.59.700......If we keep swapping #1's here soon the times going to be down in the 1.58's :o

Raven403
19-02-2016, 15:38
I noticed the lack of Dev input on this topic still. I would really hate for all this work to be done in vain on Jussi's part. I know he probably enjoys it anyway but still ;)

Would be nice to get Casey in here for some input

Pedroeol
19-02-2016, 16:06
Did my testing in Snetterton 300 the last few days, totally understand Jussi for not adding the track.

Here are the results anyway, I'm on PS4 Platform, Patch 9.0 and no assists were used. Times made on TT.

Aston Martin V8 GTE: 1:44.265
Aston Martin V12 GT3: 1:44.139
Ginetta G55 GT3: 1:44.562

By the weekend will move to Silverstone, and replace the V12 with the Bentley ;)

Marakusu
19-02-2016, 16:54
Not sure if this helps but maybe try just changing the assists off/on in the settings menu rather then switching with the button mapping in-game. That's what I'm doing and it seems to stick to the boards.

*Side Note: Know you said this on the last page but man your sector 2 time @ Silverstone is beast. You can definitely go faster in S1 though; especially Abby and taking the slower entry line into T2 for the exit speed down wellington. Did get your time last night with a 1.59.700......If we keep swapping #1's here soon the times going to be down in the 1.58's :o

Yeah, today I turned all assists off in the settings menu.
The S2 was indeed really good; unfortunately S1 and S3 werent. My best S1 time is 34:5 and S3 35:3 (same as you) so if (a big if) I could make a perfect lap my total laptime would be about 1:59:2. And that really would be my absolute best.
But I think that I will give up for now :) , I have tried a lot and can't get that perfect lap.

Hopefully you will keep improving your time. :)

Shadowoff
19-02-2016, 17:01
Did my testing in Snetterton 300 the last few days, totally understand Jussi for not adding the track.

Here are the results anyway, I'm on PS4 Platform, Patch 9.0 and no assists were used. Times made on TT.

Aston Martin V8 GTE: 1:44.265
Aston Martin V12 GT3: 1:44.139
Ginetta G55 GT3: 1:44.562

By the weekend will move to Silverstone, and replace the V12 with the Bentley ;)

Its fact, that the V12 is slow around Snetterton. Make a few laps with the Z4 or RGT8

TonyR
19-02-2016, 18:01
Its fact, that the V12 is slow around Snetterton. Make a few laps with the Z4 or RGT8

Yeah, I think that was the purpose of the test.
Not even here the GTE can beat the V12 although it definitely should :D

Shinzah
19-02-2016, 18:11
I noticed the lack of Dev input on this topic still. I would really hate for all this work to be done in vain on Jussi's part. I know he probably enjoys it anyway but still ;)

Would be nice to get Casey in here for some input

Because Casey or any of the other members of the vehicle department don't post, doesn't mean they aren't listening. They either don't have much to add, or are working on other things with this in consideration. I'm certainly sure that Casey is at least aware of Jussi's work. When the Finn speaks, most people usually listen to him.

BrightDark
19-02-2016, 19:36
PS4, Silverstone GP, Aston Martin GTE, TT. #141.

227858

I think turbo turtle is right with the lower tire pressures. I looked at his tune, and went for 1.90/1.80 Bar on the front tires (2.10/2.02 before). I might have to go back to Hockenheim later and test.
But there is definitely some effect with camber, -0.9/-0.9, in turbo turtle's setup was not ideal, I think. The car was better with more, and I drove with -1.7 front an -1.5 rear :)

e23belen
19-02-2016, 22:42
I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm just not very good with this car, and that it's one of the most challenging cars to set up correctly. I've definitely hit the wall when it comes to my pace with the Aston GTE. Next I think I'll try some other vehicles that I'm not very good with and compare how I do with those.

Arnoldusch
20-02-2016, 14:52
Moro Jussi & co.

I did some quick testing with the Aston Martin GT3 in Monaco.
These are the sector times compared to the Audi.

Aston | Audi
s1 26.604 | 26.425
s2 32.785 | 32.565
s3 32.675 | 32.388
-------------------
1:32:064 | 1:31:378

I felt a bit rusty after a few months break from the game, so I know that it's possible to match the pace of the Audi.

Having said that... there is lots of room to improve with the Audi also. Seems I lost 4 tenths in the first sector to the driver in second place.
Seems to be common to me with both cars that I'm slow in the first sector. So I blame the driver.

Pedroeol
20-02-2016, 20:19
Did some testing today with the Bentley Continental GT3 at Silverstone GP, managed to do a 1:58.733 but I feel I can still improve this time.

Will post my final time tomorrow together with the V8 GTE.

BrightDark
21-02-2016, 14:02
PS4, Brno, Aston Martin GTE, TT. #240.

227976

Pedroeol
21-02-2016, 22:38
Finished my testing in Silverstone with the Bentley and the V8 GTE.

PS4, Patch 9.0, TT;

Bentley Continental GT3: 1:58.686 with ABS
Aston Martin V8 GTE: 1:58.904 without ABS (not to make it harder but because I prefer no ABS with this car)

The first GT3 ranked in PS4 has a 1:58.653 with a Z4, maybe these cars ain't that bad :playful:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-02-2016, 05:35
Nice going, thanks! There's still an over two second gap to the fastest GT3 times on PC (M3 GT), but great to have more data. =)

neruxxx
22-02-2016, 06:24
so i've been testing alot the GTE at donington gp.
i use this setup http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/253535664
but im a shitty driver so i do 1:28 in most of gt3 cars.
with this setup i can get ahead the 1:26 ghost easily @ the first half of the track. then my shitty skills mess up everything.


these are my times in donington gp. pretty consistent in being slow at 1:28 hahaha
http://i.imgur.com/uWuGTGK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/x4UKPTU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uZFuuPP.jpg

Telstar
22-02-2016, 14:35
So @Jussi, which car and track combo you still need some data for? I might do some hotlapping in the next few days.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-02-2016, 14:49
So @Jussi, which car and track combo you still need some data for? I might do some hotlapping in the next few days.If you can improve the world records, then every single track with the three cars listed (G55 GT3, Bentley GT3, Aston GTE), and with comparison to what you can achieve in the other cars if not. =)

t0daY
22-02-2016, 19:09
Yesterday we did the Aston Martin GTE on Road America. Fastest laptime was from Cluck with a 2:06.9xx in the race. I think low 2:06 is the fastest what you can achieve with clean driving and staying between the white lines.

Edit: Just took a look at the leaderboard. F1-Masa did a high 2:05 xD Forget about it^^

AndrexUK
23-02-2016, 08:35
I would ignore Masa's times, it just makes you think you are missing something fundamental about how to drive fast :( He's an Alien! BUT, He did spin out 3 times at our Leagues Road America race! (Taking me out twice), so maybe there is a slight amount of human'yness in him too...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 08:41
I'm almost most interested in the times of people like Masa, since they can usually get very close to the actual limits of the car. Of course it matters what everyone else does as well, but people like him are usually the best for finding the limits.

AndrexUK
23-02-2016, 11:43
Not had the chance to ask him to run some more TT's, as I've not seen him on since Season 3 finished, but I'll keep my eye open for him.
But that is indeed a decent comparison, in that he ran:
2:05.847 in the V8 GTE
2:03.880 in the V12 GT3

I guess it's just weather you need to be F1-Masa level for the cars to be balanced, or a more mortal level of skill/ability, as Masa is almost always 0.5 seconds a lap faster than other top drivers. That said, If Masa is X% slower in the GTE compared to the GT3, then most others will also be the same % slower. However, do you buff it to be 2 seconds a lap faster for Masa, or 3 seconds a lap faster for most other average guys?
Obviously, we don't want to make it OP in the hands of an Alien, but in order to have more ppl drive these slow cars, they need to be competitive for the more average driver.

M4MKey
23-02-2016, 12:05
I did a lot of maths yesterday about GT3 engine performance overall...

Aston GTE is about 460ch at the test track ( i'm also assuming, the test track is at 0m of elevation ). Aston GTE is about 525ch at 0m of elevation.

Biggest issue with the GTEs is about their relatively small restrictor. Which makes elevation changes even worse ( in term of HP loss ).

For example...
At 0m :
the M3 GT is about 500ch while the Z4 is about 490... ( M3 has more HP than Z4 )
At 650m ( Bathurst ):
the M3 GT is about 430ch while the Z4 is about 445ch. ( Z4 has more HP than M3 )

Air restrictor size does have an impact on how much you're loosing HP... Every GTE car is about 29mm of restrictor. Z4 has a small engine so it has a 60mm restrictor... Making it the car with the least loss of HP depending of elevation of the whole grid. ( of course, I don't include turbocharged engines in this statement )

I made a google drive spreadsheet about it for every car ( GT3, GTE ). But I don't have the link here... ( and it contains future DLC cars ( please don't bite, it's for science )).
If you're interested Jussi, I'll give you the link later this afternoon.

But to summarize what I found... Speaking only engine-wise... GTE cars should not be in GT3 class in this game. Because they are really lacking in power.
Though Am I remembering correctly that the M3 GT did have an increase in its restrictor already ?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 12:08
Obviously, we don't want to make it OP in the hands of an Alien, but in order to have more ppl drive these slow cars, they need to be competitive for the more average driver.Yeah, that's the balance that needs to be struck. And we need to know the alien times as well for that. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 12:44
For example...
At 0m :
the M3 GT is about 500ch while the Z4 is about 490... ( M3 has more HP than Z4 )
At 650m ( Bathurst ):
the M3 GT is about 430ch while the Z4 is about 445ch. ( Z4 has more HP than M3 )

Air restrictor size does have an impact on how much you're loosing HP... Every GTE car is about 29mm of restrictor. Z4 has a small engine so it has a 60mm restrictor... Making it the car with the least loss of HP depending of elevation of the whole grid. ( of course, I don't include turbocharged engines in this statement )Actually the M3 has less power than the Z4 even at low altitude, it peaks out at 489 hp vs 491 hp in the Z4 GT3. The M3 does lose more power at altitude, at around 620 meters (Nords/Nürburgring start line) it has 438 hp vs. 450 hp in the Z4, so 12 hp less.

The Z4 actually ties with Ginetta in the "lowest power reduction at altitude for NA engines" at 8.4% drop between test track and 620 meters, followed by Audi R8 LMS Ultra and Ruf RGT-8 GT3 at 8.6%, Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3 at 9.5%, Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3 at 10.1%, BMW M3 GT at 10.4% and Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE at 10.5%. Then there are obviously the two turbo cars, Bentley Continental GT3 and McLaren 12C GT3 that only lose 0.2%.

And actually the Z4 GT3 has a 4.4 liter engine, 0.4 liters larger than the 4.0 liter engine in the M3 GT. =)

M4MKey
23-02-2016, 13:04
nice precision here :) I have put the numbers by memory so wasn't 100% sure of them. You're right, the M3 has a very little bit less at low altitude already.

Still, my question remains entirely.. Why make GTE cars in GT3 class when they use suck small restrictors ? The Aston GTE is only 460 at low altitude ! and 400 at Bathurst ! that's insanely slow ( and explains its lack of good laptimes on leaderboards ). Of course, aliens will always find a way to gain 2 seconds in one corner.. but 95% of the other people will just not take this car :)

( And I think even alien wouldn't take it for competitive races )

AbeWoz
23-02-2016, 13:12
GTE cars are typically always down on power from their GT3 counterparts, but they have better tires and better aero dynamics to give them move downforce/better cornering speeds where the GTE cars should be making their laptimes.

MJP
23-02-2016, 13:14
nice precision here :) I have put the numbers by memory so wasn't 100% sure of them. You're right, the M3 has a very little bit less at low altitude already.

Still, my question remains entirely.. Why make GTE cars in GT3 class when they use suck small restrictors ? The Aston GTE is only 460 at low altitude ! and 400 at Bathurst ! that's insanely slow ( and explains its lack of good laptimes on leaderboards ). Of course, aliens will always find a way to gain 2 seconds in one corner.. but 95% of the other people will just not take this car :)

( And I think even alien wouldn't take it for competitive races )

Because the GT3 cars suck, only nice one to drive is the Ginetta but because of the relatively long 1st gear and a powerband that feels like it's all at the topend, not to mention it only has 500HP against it's claimed ingame 525HP! I get tired of losing so many places at starts, wish the rolling starts would get fixed.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 13:18
nice precision here :) I have put the numbers by memory so wasn't 100% sure of them. You're right, the M3 has a very little bit less at low altitude already.

Still, my question remains entirely.. Why make GTE cars in GT3 class when they use suck small restrictors ? The Aston GTE is only 460 at low altitude ! and 400 at Bathurst ! that's insanely slow ( and explains its lack of good laptimes on leaderboards ). Of course, aliens will always find a way to gain 2 seconds in one corner.. but 95% of the other people will just not take this car :)

( And I think even alien wouldn't take it for competitive races )Because in reality GTE cars are pretty much on par with GT3 cars when it comes to lap times (and especially if we assumed a situation where both were running on the same tyres), they're down on power but they get by by being efficient at everything they can do. The Aston, despite being the lowest power car in the lineup (you should open it up to maximum restrictor btw, it can do 468 hp at low altitude and still has 419 hp at 620 meters) matches real life performance in many ways, the power level is almost exactly spot on and the top speed and acceleration of the Aston GTE are both immensely close to measured real life performance (it can easily surpass 290 km/h @ Le Mans for example, so it's not exactly slow in a straight line either), and the M3 GT has recently actually been getting some flack for being too fast. I don't think there's anything wrong with having GTE cars with the GT3 cars, they add a nice element to the racing because they're not power reliant like the GT3s can be.

However there's something wrong with the Aston GTE currently because it's so much slower, and I don't think it's the engine power. If we just increased the power it'd go way faster in a straight line than the real car has shown to go. When I tested the grip performances of the cars in the class I was surprised to see that the Aston GTE, which I would have expected to be among the top performers, like the M3 GT, was actually way behind many of the GT3 cars, especially the Z4 GT3 and the G55 GT3, and even lost to the Bentley in some grip tests. I'm starting to think that's the main reason for the Aston being so much slower than what would be expected of it. Even if the aliens can take it around a track two seconds faster than the other guys, the few really good times I've seen for them, combined with times those same drivers set for other cars, shows that the Aston GTE is almost two seconds behind even for them.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 13:21
GTE cars are typically always down on power from their GT3 counterparts, but they have better tires and better aero dynamics to give them move downforce/better cornering speeds where the GTE cars should be making their laptimes.This reminds me that the main GTE aero advantage is the efficiency, not necessarily the raw amount of DF. Before 2016 they weren't for example allowed diffusers at all, they could only have a flat bottom and an angled flat plane after the rear wheel arches. But overall GTE cars are way more highly developed, with much more sophisticated suspensions etc., and what aero they do have is highly optimized compared to GT3 (where they can just use power to combat drag and will get pegged down anyway if they go too fast, so efficiency isn't as much of an issue).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 13:29
Because the GT3 cars suck, only nice one to drive is the Ginetta but because of the relatively long 1st gear and a powerband that feels like it's all at the topend, not to mention it only has 500HP against it's claimed ingame 525HP! I get tired of losing so many places at starts, wish the rolling starts would get fixed.Nice to see another Ginetta lover. =)

Yeah, the powerband is 100% all top end, it has no flat sections at all and no low end grunt (it's the lowest power car in the class in the 3600-5300 rpm range), just a steady rise towards the top. If it had either a more user friendly power/torque curve with the same amount of power as it has currently, it'd be a lot more competitive, or at least if it had the claimed 525 hp with this curve it'd be closer as well. The gearing is unfortunate as well, but has some upsides to it once you've gotten moving.

M4MKey
23-02-2016, 13:32
Okay. I understand fully what is being said here. And in some way, I agree with it. I still have difficulties to see how a GTE car would go faster than a GT3 on Monza for example. Its advantage in term of aero/chassis/whatever else is pointless on certain tracks when it's only about raw power. ( no wonder why the Aston GT3 is mighty quick at this track too ^^ )

But then, let's get back to one of the GT3 that has issues :

Bentley...

So right now, with the tests I did yesterday and even though it developps 15 more HP than the Z4... On the test track, it wasn't quicker in accel, ( 10secs to 0-200 ). And it acheived 290kph in about 30secs, like the Z4...
But let's remind that the Bentley is nowhere near as agile as the Z4 in corners... So I still think the BoP applied to the Bentley on patch 5 was too much, or that other cars don't have the same season BoP.

Right now it makes no sense that the only advantage the Bentley is having, is to have a turbo and thus, no loosing that much HP whatever the elevation is.
Bentley IRL has always been one of the fastest on straights... Making a 0.6sec gap from an R8 that was right behind its boot in only one straight ! ( that was on Algavre 2014 / Blancpain sprint series ).

Ginetta :

I think someone said it above... Maybe a too thin powerband ? It may be very agile like the Z4, having one of the best restrictor size like the Z4, but it's still maybe lacking a few HP to be competitive ? ( maybe just 15-20 ). Or maybe there's just not enough setup options to fiddle with the car ( Z4 also has one of the most complete setup range possible ).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-02-2016, 14:17
Okay. I understand fully what is being said here. And in some way, I agree with it. I still have difficulties to see how a GTE car would go faster than a GT3 on Monza for example. Its advantage in term of aero/chassis/whatever else is pointless on certain tracks when it's only about raw power. ( no wonder why the Aston GT3 is mighty quick at this track too ^^ )

But then, let's get back to one of the GT3 that has issues :

Bentley...

So right now, with the tests I did yesterday and even though it developps 15 more HP than the Z4... On the test track, it wasn't quicker in accel, ( 10secs to 0-200 ). And it acheived 290kph in about 30secs, like the Z4...
But let's remind that the Bentley is nowhere near as agile as the Z4 in corners... So I still think the BoP applied to the Bentley on patch 5 was too much, or that other cars don't have the same season BoP.

Right now it makes no sense that the only advantage the Bentley is having, is to have a turbo and thus, no loosing that much HP whatever the elevation is.
Bentley IRL has always been one of the fastest on straights... Making a 0.6sec gap from an R8 that was right behind its boot in only one straight ! ( that was on Algavre 2014 / Blancpain sprint series ).

Ginetta :

I think someone said it above... Maybe a too thin powerband ? It may be very agile like the Z4, having one of the best restrictor size like the Z4, but it's still maybe lacking a few HP to be competitive ? ( maybe just 15-20 ). Or maybe there's just not enough setup options to fiddle with the car ( Z4 also has one of the most complete setup range possible ).
GTE car probably wouldn't go faster on Monza, but they probably wouldn't lose by much either. A track like Monza is their worst enemy (or would be if it was high altitude as well), but the lower drag would still probably allow them to compete. It's a bit hard to guess though when GTE cars in major series haven't really run Monza in a while. The most recent GTE times for Monza I could find were from 2011, and in that year GT3 cars were commonly beating GTE cars on a lot of tracks. GTE picked up pace compared to GT3 since 2011 though, so if I were to purely guess, based on the speed differences between the classes in 2011 and 2015, I'd guess GTE would be very close to GT3 even on Monza. They might have less power but they also have less drag.

Bentley: More or less agree with you, though the Bentley actually produces about 23 hp more than the Z4 (491 hp vs. 514 hp). Did you make sure to shift when the first yellow light (second light overall) came on in the Bentley? You're losing a lot of power if you shift too late in it since the restrictor moved the peak power way earlier in the rpm range. Still, the Bentley's BoP does seem like it's a bit too disadvantageous to it on tracks other than those like Bathurst which are very high altitude. Though that 2014 Algarve thing sounds like it was before the real life restrictions imposed on the car as well, it might not be capable of that in real life anymore either.

Ginetta: Yeah, pretty much. One of the things I'd want most of all for the Ginetta would be much wider damper options, as well as stiffer front and softer rear spring options. It wouldn't be enough to completely close the gap, but if the car is advertised as having 525 bhp then I think it producing at best 498 bhp is a bit weak. Maybe the full 525 hp would be too much, but a bit more wouldn't go amiss. IIRC Casey once said that unrestricted the engine is good for around 540 hp, so there's room there.

I'm fondly remembering the olden olden times during development, when we had the original spec G55 GT3. The car has run under basically two specs IRL, one is the current one we have in game that has more power and more weight, putting it closer to the other cars in that sense, but when it first came into the game it weighed only about 1080 kg and had 450 bhp of power. It was an absolutely insane cornering machine back then. I mean that's what it is pretty much now as well, but back then it was way wilder in the way you could attack corners. =)

M4MKey
23-02-2016, 14:43
About shiftings in Bentley, yes I do :)

I upshift right at the moment the HP peak is passed. I really do think I'm on the top drivers on my league. Was able to beat leaderboard times on certain tracks ( but during Quali ( grip isn't the same )).
Here are some times :

1:40.1@ Sakitto / 1:37 @ Hockeneim / 1:25.8 @ Donington / 1.12.4 @ Willow Springs / 1.26.4 @ Oschersleben
1:54 on Nurburgring GP ( IIRC ( don't have simresults )

Of course i'm sure a lot of drivers are faster than me... But seeing how I had difficulties at Zuhai with this car... I can make the difference on twisty tracks. Monza is still to come on my championship and I really am not impatient to go there :(

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
24-02-2016, 09:52
Was reading up a bit on the newer generation of GTE machinery, and found a nice line in BMW Motorsports' write-up for the M6 GTLM. So far I've been under the assumption based on multiple forum discussions, some comments from racing engineers and other such titbits (as well as certain limitations like the lack of diffusers, heavily limited front splitters and dive planes) that GTE cars generally had access to better tyres than GT3 cars. In BMW's write-up I finally found a proper public statement essentially confirming this:
The BMW M6 GTLM achieves far faster lap times than the BMW M6 GT3, primarily because of the Michelin tyres specified in the regulations for the GTLM class.Nice to see that BMW came out saying outright that even with their new spec GTLM car, with the new aero regulations etc. they're still attributing the primary reason for the comparative speed to the tyres. =)

BrightDark
24-02-2016, 18:51
Aston GTE @Monaco:

228222

Telstar
24-02-2016, 21:21
Okay, I did some hotlapping with the cars in question in the last couple of days and here are my results:

Track: Spa-Francorchamps
Aston Martin Vantage GTE: 2:19:052
Bentley Continental GT3: 2:18:717
(Ginetta G55 GT3: 2:19:640)

I put the Ginetta time in brackets because I was really struggling with the car and therefore my setup was aimed more towards drivability than pure speed. I still included it in my post for the sake of completeness but won't consider it in my little résumé below.

As a comparison, I ran a few laps with the BMW Z4 GT3 and here is the lap time I achieved:
2:16:641

So it's a whopping 2.1 seconds between the Z4 and the fastest one of the other three cars.

I was at the limit while driving with all three cars (excluding the Ginetta here). Both the Z4 and the Aston GTE impress with good drivability, but ultimately it was simply so easy to be so quick with the Z4. The Aston has a really nice feel while driving, too, and it is probably the most comfortable car to drive in endurance races (which is actually only logical for a GTE car). It's just that you're at the limit and you still don't feel very quick at all.
The Bentley loses all of his time in the corners. It was the fastest one at the end of the long straight despite being ~5 km/h slower than the Z4 through Eau Rouge and despite running more aero than the Z4. Plus, it is harder to drive than the Z4 and the Aston GTE. So the Bentley time might be the least perfect lap I ran, if at all.

bradleyland
24-02-2016, 21:23
Aston GTE @Monaco:

Damn dude, that is some serious Deathstar trench run, use the force, alien shiz right there.

TexasTyme214
24-02-2016, 22:38
That's an interesting comparison on Spa. I can only get mid 2:17s in the Z4, Ginetta, and Aston GTE.

Awong124
24-02-2016, 23:03
Looking at some of these times, I don't think anything can really be done to equalize the performance of the cars, because every driver will be relatively quicker in different cars. Like the lap times that Telstar posted compared to lap times I've done myself on Spa. The relative differences between cars between the two of us are not even close. His lap times with the Z4 and Vantage GTE are about 0.6s and 0.2s quicker than mine respectively, but my lap times with the Continental and G55 are about 1.5s and 1.7s quicker than his respectively. For me, I can post almost identical lap times with the Z4 and the Continental, but for Telstar they're over 2 seconds apart. The setups I used are general setups not optimized for a specific track though, so that might have played a factor.

Then TexasTyme214 said he could get mid 2:17s in each of the Z4, G55, and Vantage GTE. I'm in the same ballpark with the Z4 (low 2:17s) and the G55 (high 2:17s), but not even close with the Vantage GTE (low 2:19s)

Telstar
24-02-2016, 23:15
Looking at some of these times, I don't think anything can really be done to equalize the performance of the cars, because every driver will be relatively quicker in different cars. Like the lap times that Telstar posted compared to lap times I've done myself on Spa. The relative differences between cars between the two of us are not even close. His lap times with the Z4 and Vantage GTE are about 0.6s and 0.2s quicker than mine respectively, but my lap times with the Continental and G55 are about 1.5s and 1.7s quicker than his respectively. For me, I can post almost identical lap times with the Z4 and the Continental, but for Telstar they're over 2 seconds apart. The setups I used are general setups not optimized for a specific track though, so that might have played a factor.

Then TexasTyme214 said he could get mid 2:17s in each of the Z4, G55, and Vantage GTE. I'm in the same ballpark with the Z4 (low 2:17s) and the G55 (high 2:17s), but not even close with the Vantage GTE (low 2:19s)

I did adjust the setups a little bit on every car but they are certainly not optimal yet. Maybe I'll do some further testing and tweaking setups and see how much I can improve.

I agree that personal preference influences the euation. The Z4 does suit me and my driving style and it didn't took me long to set the ultimate lap time, faster than in any of the other cars.

Awong124
24-02-2016, 23:26
I did adjust the setups a little bit on every car but they are certainly not optimal yet. Maybe I'll do some further testing and tweaking setups and see how much I can improve.

I agree that personal preference influences the euation. The Z4 does suit me and my driving style and it didn't took me long to set the ultimate lap time, faster than in any of the other cars.

I tweaked my setups as well, just not optimized specifically for Spa. The Z4 suits me as well, but I also found the Continental to be quite easy to drive.

sbXII
25-02-2016, 00:37
I tried my best to beat the 1:57, but I lose too much time in the first corner.
228228

I don't think there is any difference between the Bentley and the Bentley BoP.
The Bentley is not popular enough and I think he is not the easiest GT3 to drive. That's the reason why there are no good times in the leaderboard.

But I LOVE him! :p

And Jussi, thanks for the nice thread. Good job as always :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 08:39
Looking at some of these times, I don't think anything can really be done to equalize the performance of the cars, because every driver will be relatively quicker in different cars. Like the lap times that Telstar posted compared to lap times I've done myself on Spa. The relative differences between cars between the two of us are not even close. His lap times with the Z4 and Vantage GTE are about 0.6s and 0.2s quicker than mine respectively, but my lap times with the Continental and G55 are about 1.5s and 1.7s quicker than his respectively. For me, I can post almost identical lap times with the Z4 and the Continental, but for Telstar they're over 2 seconds apart. The setups I used are general setups not optimized for a specific track though, so that might have played a factor.

Then TexasTyme214 said he could get mid 2:17s in each of the Z4, G55, and Vantage GTE. I'm in the same ballpark with the Z4 (low 2:17s) and the G55 (high 2:17s), but not even close with the Vantage GTE (low 2:19s)You're sort of slightly missing the point. The aim was never to try to make every car equally fast for everyone (I think the best part about GT3 racing is how the cars are all different), the main main point I've been talking about the whole time is finding the absolute limits of the cars. Getting additional data in the form of how the differences between cars stack up for others is helpful and can establish trends, but overall the most important part is getting the peak performance closer to equal. I think the GT3 class is best balanced when people have their own favorite cars that feel good and work well for them, but there isn't a single car that in the right hands will be able to beat every other car no matter who is driving them, and conversely not a single car that can't keep up no matter who is driving it. I don't really care if a certain car is significantly faster for an individual driver at a given speed level than the rest, indeed I welcome that, as long as there isn't a car that is shown to have higher maximum potential than the others.

Currently there's a very distinct trend that at the top end of performance the Aston and Ginetta can't quite keep up with the others, even though for some people they're very close to the pack, and I even know some drivers who are slower in the Z4.


I tried my best to beat the 1:57, but I lose too much time in the first corner.
228228

I don't think there is any difference between the Bentley and the Bentley BoP.
The Bentley is not popular enough and I think he is not the easiest GT3 to drive. That's the reason why there are no good times in the leaderboard.

But I LOVE him! :p

And Jussi, thanks for the nice thread. Good job as always :)Great job mate, that's a blistering time!

There's definitely a big big difference between the pre and post BoP Bentley, the car lost around 30-40 odd horsepower (which also hurt the engine by removing almost 1000 rpm from the usable rev range) and the raised minimum ride height hurt the downforce (which is still pretty good though), so the capabilities are definitely lower than they were before. Heck, it's easy to see that even just outright top speed is lower now.

But the key point is that it's not as bad as people think, they gave up on it too soon. It's great that you can show something closer to the true capabilities of the car. =)

BTW, would you mind sharing your setup? I'd like to take a look at it and see if you've hit upon any particularly good ideas. You can make it private on the website and PM me the link directly to it if you want to keep it out of circulation. =)

If you really love the Bentley (and seeing how you can take it around Brno almost as fast as the fastest GT3 cars out there), I can give you the list of the current tracks where it's still missing an IMO good representative time:

Monza GP (I looked into this myself very quickly, I found myself easily being faster in S1 than the current pre-BoP record, so there's definitely room for improvement, but I never honed the rest of my lap)
Monaco
Catalunya GP
Spa-Francorchamps
Donington GP
Dubai GP (possibly)
Hockenheim GP
Imola
Laguna Seca
Oschersleben
Silverstone GP
Sakitto GP

Out of those the worst offenders are probably Monaco (4.406 seconds behind lead), Imola (3.434 seconds), Sakitto (3.266 seconds), Spa (2.657 seconds), Monza (2.530 seconds) and Catalunya (2.390 seconds). Laguna Seca's gap is also quite big (1.907 seconds) considering how short the track is and how it's a fairly high altitude track as well.

xautos
25-02-2016, 10:09
the z4 is fairly neutral to my style but there is also the ability for it to wheel spin too much causing oversteer. in my experience with the z4 it is fast but not the best to my style and not without setup adjustments to dial it out.
my opinion on the m3 is the same as the day i mentioned how nervous the car is and how little i can feel it.
the aston GTE is understeer city and oversteer city in one go, it would require significant adjustment to the setup for me to even drive it.
from what i remember of the bentley, it is good in the corners, fast on the straight, but has the tendancy of wheelspin and wheels over rotating at times, again some adjustment needed on the rear of the car, specifically for my style to dial it down or out.
the 12c is understeery and stable on the front, the way i like it, but the rear is a problem, it produced too much wheelspin and needs some adjustment to make the car stable, it suits my style the most when it has been toned down.
the g55 is okay, it is slow on the straights, noisy more so than the bmw cars, but the car produces perhaps too much power in acceleration, it is fairly difficult for me to get a read on it as well due to its oversteery nature and a front end that will not settle down. like the aston, it will require sigificant adjustment to get it to work.
the sls from what i last remember was a stable and solid car, as fast as a number of cars but not the fastest.
the audi was stable as well, could get a read on it but felt limited on setup choice when driving it around but slightly oversteery.
the RuF is more oversteery but more predictable than the other cars, so it is easy enough to catch and control, the front end seems fairly planted.

a number of these cars from what i last remember were from months ago when i last played, the z4 and 12c i have played recently.

i would need to setup the cars and find my limit again to try this out and find out where they are in my comparison at some point.

AndrexUK
25-02-2016, 12:47
So.... Lost my pCars profile the other day :<
All settings / configs / Setups....GONE
I know Le-mans is not really relevant for this testing, But I'd recently worked out that I've done in excess of 1500 laps at Le-mans (since my last profile loss...) and had LOTS of car setups for the track....all gone.

Started some laps for an event yesterday, so I have some times to compare, and since all cars are starting new setups from scratch, it should be a relatively fair conditions (ie 2 cars have not had an extra 2 hours setup done on them).

I don't tend to run TT's, but I'll post what results I have so far tonight. (at work just now)
But I plan to do a lot more tracks / car combo testing this weekend (no other events to prep for after friday).

Those laptimes are not my 100% ultimate pace (not trying to say 'Honest, I'm faster than this' but the time devoted to each car is very similar, and each car had probably 30 mins / 1 hour of driving per car / track. and are probably all close to being 96-98% of my best times and therefore the performance difference between the cars will be consistent against what a 100% lap would achieve.

Shadowoff
25-02-2016, 14:37
Looking at some of these times, I don't think anything can really be done to equalize the performance of the cars, because every driver will be relatively quicker in different cars. Like the lap times that Telstar posted compared to lap times I've done myself on Spa. The relative differences between cars between the two of us are not even close. His lap times with the Z4 and Vantage GTE are about 0.6s and 0.2s quicker than mine respectively, but my lap times with the Continental and G55 are about 1.5s and 1.7s quicker than his respectively. For me, I can post almost identical lap times with the Z4 and the Continental, but for Telstar they're over 2 seconds apart. The setups I used are general setups not optimized for a specific track though, so that might have played a factor.

Then TexasTyme214 said he could get mid 2:17s in each of the Z4, G55, and Vantage GTE. I'm in the same ballpark with the Z4 (low 2:17s) and the G55 (high 2:17s), but not even close with the Vantage GTE (low 2:19s)

What I noticed aswell is that Im on every track 2 seconds faster in the Z4 then in the GTE:

Z4 Spa: 2.15.4
GTE Spa: 2.17.1

Z4 Silverstone: 1.58.7 (not in TT)
GTE Silverstone: 2.01.2 (over 2.5 seconds!)

Z4 Bathurst: 2.05.9 (not in TT)
GTE Bathurst: 2.07.xxx

Monza and Le Mans are the ONLIEST tracks where Im as fast in the GTE as the Z4. But on several tracks Im slower in the GTE

BrightDark
25-02-2016, 15:34
Damn dude, that is some serious Deathstar trench run, use the force, alien shiz right there.

Thanks man :) But you know, there's always a bigger fish ;) Like That 1:57 @Brno in the Bentley... Seriously impressive time there, Sebastian Bilstein!!!


Did some hard work on Imola yesterday evening and today (that's what it felt like anyway :eek: ) I just couldn't reach 1:41, which was my target. The main problem was that I had to be very careful with the kerbs, no matter how soft I went with the dampers. But it is what it is, I think the car was balanced in the end. And driving wise, it was a compromise with the kerbs here and there.

Aston GTE @Imola:

228256

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 15:48
Thanks guys for helping out. =)

Currently it looks like the biggest gaps between the leader and the Aston GTE are at Dubai GP (4.877 seconds), Bathurst (3.738 seconds), Monza (3.326 seconds) and Nürburgring (3.288 seconds).

The closest times are currently Monaco (0.734 seconds), Hockenheim (1.219 seconds), Brno (1.862 seconds) and Silverstone (1.984 seconds). Then there are still 8 tracks where the gap is in the 2-3 second region.

Awong124
25-02-2016, 16:50
What I noticed aswell is that Im on every track 2 seconds faster in the Z4 then in the GTE:

Z4 Spa: 2.15.4
GTE Spa: 2.17.1

Z4 Silverstone: 1.58.7 (not in TT)
GTE Silverstone: 2.01.2 (over 2.5 seconds!)

Z4 Bathurst: 2.05.9 (not in TT)
GTE Bathurst: 2.07.xxx

Monza and Le Mans are the ONLIEST tracks where Im as fast in the GTE as the Z4. But on several tracks Im slower in the GTE

Yeah, 2 seconds sounds about right.

sbXII
25-02-2016, 17:48
Great job mate, that's a blistering time!

But you know, there's always a bigger fish Like That 1:57 @Brno in the Bentley... Seriously impressive time there, Sebastian Bilstein!!!
Thx mates, that was really hard work!

@Jussi, I meant the time difference in the leaderboard. The most BoP Bentley times are reachable.
Sure the Bentley was much better before.

I will send you a PM. I have invested a lot of time to create a good setup for me.

At the moment I drive only the tracks of our championship. There are too many drivers to beat like Markus Walter or Marc Paulaner. There are only fast drivers. But nobody drives with the Bentley :p

Hockenheim - 1:36.900
Zolder - 1:30.584
Spa - 2:15.246
Brno - 1:57.044
Catalunya
Nordschleife
Oschersleben
Silverstone
Nürburg - 1:54.242
Watkins
Sonoma
Road America

From track to track I'm going faster. But Spa is not my track, I'm too slow there. I can't beat the BoP times.

When I have time, I will drive the other tracks.

Shadowoff
25-02-2016, 18:14
Thanks guys for helping out. =)

Currently it looks like the biggest gaps between the leader and the Aston GTE are at Dubai GP (4.877 seconds), Bathurst (3.738 seconds), Monza (3.326 seconds) and Nürburgring (3.288 seconds).

The closest times are currently Monaco (0.734 seconds), Hockenheim (1.219 seconds), Brno (1.862 seconds) and Silverstone (1.984 seconds). Then there are still 8 tracks where the gap is in the 2-3 second region.

I can try Dubai GP, the record I drove their was just a lap without setup changes, I think a 1.54-1.55 is possible there. Nürburgring the same.

KrypticTMG
25-02-2016, 20:03
I know, it changes from race to race quite often in real life, and almost every series uses their own BoP. It's a mess in real life.

SMS has already managed to get the vast majority of the GT3 lineup very competitive with each other, now we just need to figure out how much the last few cars that fall outside the spectrum need adjusting. Then we could have a truly epic GT3 lineup in-game. We'd still have the problem of high altitude tracks and turbos since we can't force restrictions in an online race, but we could get them really good for the vast majority of tracks.

To be honest I think all that needs to be done for the slower cars is a little more straight line speed because that's the main place where they are losing out to the likes of the faster cars. Cornering speed doesn't really seem to be the problem.

Awong124
25-02-2016, 20:12
To be honest I think all that needs to be done for the slower cars is a little more straight line speed because that's the main place where they are losing out to the likes of the faster cars. Cornering speed doesn't really seem to be the problem.

But you still want to make it true to the real life characteristics of the car. It's totally unrealistic to just boost the straight line speed of the GTE cars when that's not where their advantage lies in real life.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 20:43
@Jussi, I meant the time difference in the leaderboard. The most BoP Bentley times are reachable.
Sure the Bentley was much better before.Ah OK, I gotcha. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 20:51
To be honest I think all that needs to be done for the slower cars is a little more straight line speed because that's the main place where they are losing out to the likes of the faster cars. Cornering speed doesn't really seem to be the problem.Adding power is the simple way, yes, but I'd much rather be as truthful to the real cars as possible. Adding power is definitely a very usable option for the G55 GT3 and the Bentley GT3 as well, since that's largely how they tend to handle those issues IRL as well for GT3 (or possibly the Ginetta could get a weight reduction).

For the Aston GTE though I don't think it'd be a suitable change since the car already goes as fast as the real life car does on the straights (easily going past 290 km/h @ Le Mans with a low drag setup), but for some reason the car seems slightly slow compared to reality. I fully expect the fastest leaderboard times in a sim to always beat real times, simply because of the amount of corner specific optimization, the amount of tuning, the amount of sheer training we can do, and how we can drive more wildly because we only have to get a corner right once for a quick lap, we don't have to worry about the 50 other times when we wreck the car while trying to find the limit. Currently there are several examples of the Aston GTE not being able to even reach real life lap times, much less improve upon them. This makes me think that there's something wrong with the car elsewhere (I'm fairly certain it's either aero or tyres), because the straight line performance seems to be spot on right now.

Shadowoff
25-02-2016, 21:33
Today I made some night testing with the GTE at Dubai (in my opinion night is the perfect time to look how stable the car drives, 'cuz you have less grip) and I drove in the second lap with 92 litres a 1.57.1 there. Dont tested at day currently, but a 1.55 is definetly my goal and maybe with some luck a 1.54 is possible :)

EpilepticToast
25-02-2016, 22:32
I just recently finished participating in a gt3 endurance league running the Aston GTE.
after all of the hours I put into it, tuning and running 90 min races, I'd have to say it's major weakness is getting up to speed after exiting the corners. With a good setup, the GTE can corner very well maintaining high speed grip, it can also get up to a reasonable top speed on tracks like Le mans but It just really falls short on how long it takes to get there. The feeling I got from most of the races was that the car was bogging down after exiting out of the corners, it would then end up being swallowed by other gt3's because of it. On short straight flowing tracks like the glen it performed very well, but other tracks like le mans and zhuhai were a mess. overall, I had a pretty decent season with this car, ending up 3rd in the standings thanks to it's good consistency for long races. I enjoyed driving it for endurance races but I won't be choosing it for next season because it really just doesn't have enough to top the z4 or m3 in a competitive setting amongst multiple drivers of a similar ability, as seen in the race results trend here: http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/2015-race-results.111640/

I love the car, but I feel it may need the tiniest power or torque adjustment, especially if the C7R comes out of the gates flying!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 23:14
Based on testing results I think the GTE lacks in cornering power compared to the M3 GT, Z4 GT3 and G55 GT3, but is above the others for the most part. If it could corner like the M3 GT it'd probably be very close already.

And power = torque * revs, so adjusting one will affect the other. Though you can of course increase torque/power at lower revs without increasing the peak power. =)

EpilepticToast
25-02-2016, 23:41
Based on testing results I think the GTE lacks in cornering power compared to the M3 GT, Z4 GT3 and G55 GT3, but is above the others for the most part. If it could corner like the M3 GT it'd probably be very close already.

And power = torque * revs, so adjusting one will affect the other. Though you can of course increase torque/power at lower revs without increasing the peak power. =)

that's interesting, I seemed to have an advantage in the corners racing the GTE, I suppose there's so many factors that change the characteristics to be different for everyone. Yes, a lower rev torque boost would be very beneficial to the GTE I think. I rarely found it losing time in the corners while racing, but I frequently use heavy DF so that would have helped.
I'm not really certain what it needs, but I agree it's missing something that takes a chunk out of the performance.

TexasTyme214
26-02-2016, 03:14
I think the Aston's strength is handling and tire wear, but it could be faster in the corners given its accurate speed. I also noticed that its fuel stint is a bit shorter than the other cars in class. If it had another 5 liters in the tank, it'd be fine.

dghdh
26-02-2016, 03:20
PS4
I did a lap on Imola with the Ginetta G55 GT3. Did a good lap at 1:41.988.

Did one in a lower 41,9, but I can't remember what it was. XD I've done a 36 lap with the Pagani Zonda R from before which means that the Ginetta lap isn't saved on the leaderboard, so I can't check. I do think though that a 1;41,5 is possible.

EpilepticToast
26-02-2016, 05:05
Just tried out the Bentley for the first time since BOP, ran a 1:42.8 at Watkins Glen GP. It felt amazing with only a few adjustments running real assists, quite happy with the car! So does the Bentley now fade at top end? It still seemed to have the incredible power at the glen but there's no long straights. I am pleasantly surprised with that time after only a 20 min session to get the car settled in, might choose it for next season now!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-02-2016, 08:55
So does the Bentley now fade at top end?Yeah, you start losing power if you go beyond the second shift light (the first yellow one).

Telstar
26-02-2016, 14:33
Okay, I did some hotlapping with the cars in question in the last couple of days and here are my results:

Track: Spa-Francorchamps
Aston Martin Vantage GTE: 2:19:052
Bentley Continental GT3: 2:18:717
(Ginetta G55 GT3: 2:19:640)

I put the Ginetta time in brackets because I was really struggling with the car and therefore my setup was aimed more towards drivability than pure speed. I still included it in my post for the sake of completeness but won't consider it in my little résumé below.

As a comparison, I ran a few laps with the BMW Z4 GT3 and here is the lap time I achieved:
2:16:641

So it's a whopping 2.1 seconds between the Z4 and the fastest one of the other three cars.

I was at the limit while driving with all three cars (excluding the Ginetta here). Both the Z4 and the Aston GTE impress with good drivability, but ultimately it was simply so easy to be so quick with the Z4. The Aston has a really nice feel while driving, too, and it is probably the most comfortable car to drive in endurance races (which is actually only logical for a GTE car). It's just that you're at the limit and you still don't feel very quick at all.
The Bentley loses all of his time in the corners. It was the fastest one at the end of the long straight despite being ~5 km/h slower than the Z4 through Eau Rouge and despite running more aero than the Z4. Plus, it is harder to drive than the Z4 and the Aston GTE. So the Bentley time might be the least perfect lap I ran, if at all.

I did another few laps with the Bentley, tinkered a little with the setup and improved my lap time quite a bit. I ran a 2:17:506, 1.2 seconds faster than previously and still (or just?) 0.9 seconds slower than my best time in the Z4.

Awong124
26-02-2016, 15:30
I think the Aston's strength is handling and tire wear, but it could be faster in the corners given its accurate speed. I also noticed that its fuel stint is a bit shorter than the other cars in class. If it had another 5 liters in the tank, it'd be fine.

The V8 is also less fuel efficient than the V12. So not only does it have a lower fuel capacity, it also uses it up faster.

AndrexUK
26-02-2016, 15:34
The V8 is also less fuel efficient than the V12. So not only does it have a lower fuel capacity, it also uses it up faster.

Yeah, this seams a little crazy, and could have been a nice way to balance things if they wanted to keep performance how it currently is.
To have the car be able to run longer with the same amount of fuel may have allowed it to gain a little back on longer races, but even if it used half the fuel the V12 does, it would take a few tanks worth before it made it viable to save an entire pit stop.

Fingers (and everything else) crossed for the Vette to be competitive! (Dooooh, forgot to post lap times up again :< sorry Jussi)

AbeWoz
26-02-2016, 15:40
http://www.projectcarsgame.com/home/corvette-c7r-comes-to-project-cars-in-the-us-race-car-pack-on-march-1
This makes me feel like a secret Aston boost might be coming if the Corvette is this accurate to the real thing.

Edit: although im not holding my breath.

e23belen
26-02-2016, 15:42
I really hope so...

BrightDark
26-02-2016, 17:48
Did a fair amount of work today, to improve the setup for the GTE at Imola. It was a bit better with softer springs, and I could run consistently in the 1:42.3 - 1:42.5 area. But no 1:41s... New track tomorrow :)

228353

Shadowoff
26-02-2016, 21:53
Today I managed to drive a 1.55.7 at Dubai, feel like I can go faster.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-02-2016, 22:14
Today I managed to drive a 1.55.7 at Dubai, feel like I can go faster.That's slightly quicker than the current BMW M3 GT record, kudos. =)

KANETAKER
27-02-2016, 08:38
1:38 at Hockenheim GP with Aston Martin Vantage V8 GTE (race setup).

BrightDark
27-02-2016, 14:15
Did Bathurst today, and 409-410 BHP max at that altidude did not help on the laptimes ;)

I'm fairly satisfied with the run, lost a tenth or two in sector 1 & 2 compared with the fastest sectors I had.

228423

I've done 6 tracks in the GTE now, and will take one of the other GT3 cars to the same tracks, to compare the times.

xautos
27-02-2016, 23:02
having been in some multiplayer rounds yesterday, some things have changed, the aston car isnt the mess it was when i last played it, the car is quite drivable right out, a small weight adjustment to make it 50/50 and it works well.
i also posted a time on oscherslaben gp with the 12c gt3 yesterday, when i get my speed and confidence back to full i am certain i could beat that fastest lap time on that board, right now 5ths down on the overall fastest.

AndrexUK
28-02-2016, 19:56
Ok, finally remembered to post some time:

As I said before, these are not ultimate lap times, as I'd probably need to spend about 3+ hours on each car
So all cars had the same amount of setup time done, and roughly the same amount of 'best lap' time.
I would say they are ALL close to about 90/95% of what I could get if I was spending unlimited time on them.

Perhaps some of these cars need more fine tuning than others, but this should give a general idea of the pace / capability I was able to get from them on a level playing field. and perhaps some cars suit my driving more than others.
I'm not at F1-Masa's level, but I wouldn't say I'm too far off the pace.

Road America:
Merc SLS - 2:05.7
Aston GT3 - 2:05.8
BMW Z4 - 2:05.899
Bentley - 2:06.150
Ginetta - 2:06.326 (Rather high tyre wear)
Aston GTE - 2:07.043

Imola:
Merc SLS - 1:42.155 (Later made 1:41.549 after extra time tweeking)
Aston GT3 - 1:42.322
BMW Z4 - 1:42.8
Bentley - 1:43.207
Ginetta - 1:43.311
Aston GTE 1:44.109

Hope it is of at least some use!