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syrious3000
10-02-2016, 13:43
Hello,

over the past months, sometimes, I had some good racing hours with cars that stick heavely to the track like gt3, lemans etc.

Now with the Mazda MX-5 (Mad Mike's drifting machine) it was in my eyes and ears a statement of slightly mad to go for some drifting.

My former experiences with drifting in PCars can be described as rather strange/unrealistic, boring, sterile and unspectacular.

Now with the Mazda MX-5 I had to see, sadly, that it is still the case.

To get more specific here are some points what's imho odd about drifting in pcars:

cars seem to be too light
during drifting tires are never squealing
no skidmarks are visible
cars do not bend to the outside of the curve despite soft suspension
smoke from tires looks like in games from the 90ies (smoke balls) or doesn't show up at all. That looked better in NFS Shift


The following video demonstrates all points and compares it to real cars behaviour:
http://n4g.com/news/1669855/project-cars-drifting-video-is-slightly-disappointing

Some further videos I recorded:
https://youtu.be/onfMvvcL170
https://youtu.be/_Un8MVCJcL0

I don't want to offend and surely it's not easy to model a realistic drifting behaviour
but it seems for me like the drifting physics model is still work in progress?!?
Or is there some configuration that could cure that odd behaviour?
I'm on PS4 all driving aids off.

Please share your experiences and hints.

regards,
Chris

EDIT: At least for PC there seems to be some work in progress (mod): http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44077-0-5-Open-Beta-Alternate-Handling-Mod-Discussion-Thread/page10

Invincible
10-02-2016, 13:57
I think there is a slight misconception...

- Drifting isn't really a "thing" in Project cars. Yes the MadMike RadBull IS a drift car, but is still is partly meant to be driven as a road car.
- The car was tested by MadMike and his team - they approved it, so I don't think it is too light or way off in other ways.
- The smoke was volumetric during development, but it had to be dropped due to power limitations on the consoles and many weaker CPU's.



I don't want to offend and surely it's not easy to model a realistic drifting behaviour
but it seems for me like the drifting physics model is still work in progress?!?
Or is there some configuration that could cure that odd behaviour?


Also, there isn't some thing like "drift physics". If it works correctly, you wouldn't need a separate set of physics in the game. You can't have that IRL either.

For better control of the drifts, especially on this car, I'd recommend dropping the rear wheel pressure to 0,75 - 0,80 bar. That's what the real drift cars run for drifting too.

AbeWoz
10-02-2016, 14:01
i'm sure the drift physics are still WIP just like a lot of other features are still evolving.
As for the smoke effects, I'm sure it has a lot to do with wanting to keep the game as close to 60fps as possible, and with all the lighting transitions, track/scenery detail, etc. Smoke effects were a low priority, especially since the game is circuit racing focused, not drift focused.
But this is just my POV.
I also must disclose that in no way, shape, or form am I even remotely talented/experienced at drifting in the game. I have only driven the MX-5 once just to experience it.

Edit: ninja'd

Mad Al
10-02-2016, 14:02
There are no "drift" physics, physics doesn't change just because you are trying to go sideways

syrious3000
10-02-2016, 14:28
There are no "drift" physics, physics doesn't change just because you are trying to go sideways

Yes..obvious true in pcars.

But other racing games like nfs shift seem to have different physics models dedicated to a racing mode, that is one for normal driving and one for drifting.
IMHO an acceptable workaround for an arcade game..if both race modes cannot be served by one physics model.

havocc
10-02-2016, 14:31
Yes..obvious true in pcars.

But other racing games like nfs shift seem to have different physics models dedicated to a racing mode, that is one for normal driving and one for drifting.
IMHO an acceptable workaround for an arcade game..if both race modes cannot be served by one physics model.

So Pcars should become an arcade game with unreal physics because you can't drift?

syrious3000
10-02-2016, 14:42
I think there is a slight misconception...

- Drifting isn't really a "thing" in Project cars. Yes the MadMike RadBull IS a drift car, but is still is partly meant to be driven as a road car.
- The car was tested by MadMike and his team - they approved it, so I don't think it is too light or way off in other ways.
- The smoke was volumetric during development, but it had to be dropped due to power limitations on the consoles and many weaker CPU's.



Also, there isn't some thing like "drift physics". If it works correctly, you wouldn't need a separate set of physics in the game. You can't have that IRL either.

For better control of the drifts, especially on this car, I'd recommend dropping the rear wheel pressure to 0,75 - 0,80 bar. That's what the real drift cars run for drifting too.

OK, thanks for the info.

Will try the tire pressure adjustments.

Concerning the car weight it seems to me that discussion doesn't make much sense as it is considered OK by dev.
A single user (me) won't change their attitude to that.
But I find it's just so obvious when you compare gameplay videos with real life videos (e.g. video comparison in my initial post).

syrious3000
10-02-2016, 14:56
So Pcars should become an arcade game with unreal physics because you can't drift?

:D No that was an example how some of the current slightly mad dev's seemingly solved the drifting issue (around 2008), although based on a simpler physics model.

IMHO a workaround is better than keeping drifting virtually not realized.

Btw.: Would you honestly describe the current drift behaviour of pcars beeing authentic?

Maybe I have wrong expectations due to my lack of real life drifting experience which is restricted to video footage.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-02-2016, 15:26
Drifting has so far worked fine for me, these were all done at some point just as a proof of concept, just jumped in the cars and drove, nothing specially set up for these tests:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU20IzPgOp0

The Radbul though is just a pretty damn insane machine (and benefits from some setup adjustments as well). It enables catching and holding massive angle drifts due to the power and massive steering lock, but it's hard to control the power delivery of a car this powerful. Even Mad Mike himself says it's really difficult to drive, and he drives it for a living. The car gets a lot easier if you close the wastegate (no turbo, but you still have like 700 bhp anyway) because it's easier to control the power delivery.

Ixoye56
10-02-2016, 15:32
For some reason it was quite easy to drift with patch 7.0 for me than now with 8.0

maximatorstengel
10-02-2016, 16:49
I find it really hard to drift some of the cars. The moment when I countersteer and the car catches grip again is so fast that I loose the car in many cases, but that is for sure down to my limited abilities.

AbeWoz
10-02-2016, 16:56
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/modp-1201-basic-drift-chassis-setup/

Krus Control
10-02-2016, 17:08
Umm...I can drift perfectly. Especially in the Radbul. It's pretty much just like real life. It must be said that FFB needs to be configured properly or you will have problems. A good setup helps too.

syrious3000
11-02-2016, 13:25
Umm...I can drift perfectly. Especially in the Radbul. It's pretty much just like real life. It must be said that FFB needs to be configured properly or you will have problems. A good setup helps too.

So can you name or link such a proper drifting setup, please?

resmania
11-02-2016, 14:35
So can you name or link such a proper drifting setup, please?

It drifts fine with the default setup. Perhaps lowering the psi will help a little..

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 14:59
Default is pretty good already (though I had to severely reduce FFB Master Scale to prevent clipping), but lowering the rear tyre pressures to around 1 bar and while you're at it dropping the fronts to like 1.8-2.0 bar makes the car a whole lot easier.

BoereJack
11-02-2016, 15:11
Default is pretty good already (though I had to severely reduce FFB Master Scale to prevent clipping), but lowering the rear tyre pressures to around 1 bar and while you're at it dropping the fronts to like 1.8-2.0 bar makes the car a whole lot easier.

i will try this.... thanks... A
i have been playing around with it, and i like it.......

one thing i noticed in my sessoins at the testtrack innercircle....... switch of auto clutch......it is annoying as ****...... and put the accelock on the diff up to around 40%......

also little question.... i need a handbrake that is not on my wheel.... what option are there when i play on ps4?? i saw something about changing something on the thrusmaster shifter(analog mode) but does that work on ps4??

lifeofbrian
11-02-2016, 17:09
Just finished this setup, worked wonders for me.
227242

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 17:15
Just finished this setup, worked wonders for me.
227242Yeah, lowering the wastegate also helps make the power delivery more easily controlled, it is quite sudden normally. Can't say I see any reason to run fronts super soft though.

Also I don't think you're really doing anything with the wastegate at 0.55 bar that it wouldn't do at 0.00 bar, you're never going to be on a track where the ambient pressure is below 0.55 bar. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 17:16
i will try this.... thanks... A
i have been playing around with it, and i like it.......

one thing i noticed in my sessoins at the testtrack innercircle....... switch of auto clutch......it is annoying as ****...... and put the accelock on the diff up to around 40%......

also little question.... i need a handbrake that is not on my wheel.... what option are there when i play on ps4?? i saw something about changing something on the thrusmaster shifter(analog mode) but does that work on ps4??Can you map buttons on PS4 in the controls menu? If so, you should be able to set the shifter to activate the handbrake. You'd want to have it in sequential mode though.

Jaroslav Turna
11-02-2016, 18:12
Just found this ...... that guy seems pretty comfortable drifting RadBull

(ok .. still not perfect, not able to hold the line and the drift through whole area where RL drifting is done .. but close)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTUgyo_i_co

Alex Hobbs
11-02-2016, 18:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpEf-7CzviA

Drifting in pcars isn't perfect definitely, but even on default tyres it's possible

lifeofbrian
11-02-2016, 21:32
Following the advise on this (http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/modp-1201-basic-drift-chassis-setup/) page I was trying to get the hot temps the same or similar all round. It also mentions running tyre pressures for turbo V8's at that level. Like I said, it worked wonder for me, It's close to the drifting in Assetto Corsa now.


Yeah, lowering the wastegate also helps make the power delivery more easily controlled, it is quite sudden normally. Can't say I see any reason to run fronts super soft though.

Also I don't think you're really doing anything with the wastegate at 0.55 bar that it wouldn't do at 0.00 bar, you're never going to be on a track where the ambient pressure is below 0.55 bar. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 21:39
Following the advise on this (http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/modp-1201-basic-drift-chassis-setup/) page I was trying to get the hot temps the same or similar all round. It also mentions running tyre pressures for turbo V8's at that level. Like I said, it worked wonder for me, It's close to the drifting in Assetto Corsa now.As far as I can see that page says absolutely nothing about getting the temps to be the same front and rear, just the pressures, and their mention that you'll probably have to bleed the pressures after every run suggests that they're indeed recognizing that the temps are going to go up and you'll need to fiddle with them pretty constantly. The hot pressures they talk about are 32 psi, or 2.2 bar, do the fronts really get up there once they're warm? Don't the rears go way beyond?

But that's as it may be, whatever works for you is good. =)

Linx
11-02-2016, 22:15
What car would you guys recommend for learning to drift in Pcars? I finally got my handbrake working and just started learning last weekend. I've been using the Scion FR-S with a stiff suspension set up and changes the fdr a little. After a while of practicing I can hold some drifts now but not consistently. Then I'll either spin the car or, while counter steering, the car whips back and puts me into a wall. While I know this is a lack of experienceexperience, I'm thinking my tune set up is way off. I used to be real good at drifting on Forza 4, but this is a whole new monster. Any advice will be appreciated

Krus Control
11-02-2016, 22:20
What car would you guys recommend for learning to drift in Pcars? I finally got my handbrake working and just started learning last weekend. I've been using the Scion FR-S with a stiff suspension set up and changes the fdr a little. After a while of practicing I can hold some drifts now but not consistently. Then I'll either spin the car or, while counter steering, the car whips back and puts me into a wall. While I know this is a lack of experienceexperience, I'm thinking my tune set up is way off. I used to be real good at drifting on Forza 4, but this is a whole new monster. Any advice will be appreciated

I recommend the FRS Rocket Bunny. Set arm angle to 400 or 500 (arm angle is important for opposite lock). Use the hard tires, the softs have some ugly characteristics. Default should be okay to drift if I remember correctly. Stiffening front and rear springs a bit wouldn't hurt.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-02-2016, 22:46
I really enjoy drifting the 1M Coupe with my OEM setup (available on the website). The RocketBunny is also fun, I think I actually like the Softs best for drifting it. =)

cmch15
11-02-2016, 22:56
And this guy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwJQuHL1_JU

I'm sure there are possibly some that maybe have had a go or know someone who does it, but I'd be interested to see those complaining actually have a go in the Radbul or anything else for that matter and see if you can come out of a drift cleanly, or just end up flicking back the other way or come to a disappointing stop across the track.

Practice and timing are the key. I've had some "genius" moments (more by luck than judgement) in the Radbul, unfortunately still massively outweighed by the moments described above. :)

Panopticism
11-02-2016, 23:02
Maybe you just haven't quite figured it out? I mean, I'd rather shit in my hands and clap than watch someone drift or even do it myself, but I'm fairly sure that it is a difficult proposition.

cmch15
11-02-2016, 23:16
Yes, that's probably it. Maybe I'll do that instead too....

F***ing hell :rolleyes: :)

Panopticism
11-02-2016, 23:49
I was responding to the person who started the thread. That's why I didn't quote your post. :)

xtro
25-04-2016, 16:00
Hi guys.. So im currently learning to drift (w a wheel) ... Which seems very difficult to achieve in pcars. The transitions are too quick and the cars either feels too light ortransition back so fast that itspins outof control the other way...so much that im wondering if there are not some underlying steering assists going on. It might be due to my ffb settings as well. So far i tried with an r8 and ruf gt8. Can any of you share a good drifting setup for a newbe. I figure if i can learn in this game i should be able to handle any other games.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-04-2016, 16:32
I suggest you start practicing with the 1M Coupe (the normal one, not the StanceWorks one), that's a good drift trainer, the All Weather tyres are probably. If you want to be able to power oversteer more easily then the Pagani Zonda Cinque is a good pick. Drifting works IMO quite well in pCARS, it's not perfect but neither is any other game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU20IzPgOp0

Everything in that video was done with the OEM style setups I've made for the road cars, available on http://projectcarssetups.eu

Jaroslav Turna
25-04-2016, 16:53
GT86 is also good for start. It is a bit low on power (you won't be able to keep extra long drifts), but very nice for learning the absolute basics.

xtro
25-04-2016, 17:09
I suggest you start practicing with the 1M Coupe (the normal one, not the StanceWorks one), that's a good drift trainer, the All Weather tyres are probably. If you want to be able to power oversteer more easily then the Pagani Zonda Cinque is a good pick. Drifting works IMO quite well in pCARS, it's not perfect but neither is any other game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU20IzPgOp0

Everything in that video was done with the OEM style setups I've made for the road cars, available on http://projectcarssetups.eu

Thank you!! i cant wait to get back home and give it a try. I was thinking of buying the japanese dlc just for that but im glad i have a good starter car to learn.... Its Exciting to learn a new driving skill i probably would never have an opportunity to do in real life :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-04-2016, 20:22
Oh and of course the Radbul also works, and has the massive steering lock that pro drifters require, which isn't found on any road car obviously, but you need a bit of finesse with that, since it's so insanely powerful. Unless of course you restrict it down to a more reasonable amount of power. =)

If trying it, I heartily recommend running very low tyre pressures (you can go as low as 1 bar, they'll puff up a bit as they heat up, they do run ridiculously low pressures IRL too in many cases) and a fairly low accel lock and preload, it's easier to initiate a drift with high locking but it's also easier to lose control. =)

Linx
26-04-2016, 02:21
Though I'm still getting my skills up, this is how I went about learning the car and drifting. I would keep lapping a track. Each time going faster around the turns. Eventually, you're gonna reach a point where the back end will start kicking out the faster you go around each turn. Then you'll find yourself countersteering little by little until you reach a point of fully locking. I used to try and fly into a turn, fully locked and it was nothing but disaster. Though I do need to learn better drift tunes.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-04-2016, 02:41
Or you might just understeer through the corner by going in too fast. =)

My preferred methods of drifting are shift locking (when approaching a corner I step on the clutch, shift down but keep the clutch pressed, and when I enter I lift the clutch so that the jolt kicks the tail out, good method for encouraging slides pretty smoothly), trail braking and brake tapping (move so much weight to the front that the rear becomes loose and starts to oversteer), and Scandinavian flicks. Sometimes I use all three simultaneously for stubborn cars. =)

I do also use brute power sometimes, and especially at low speeds (like after a corner combination that just robs your speed) a clutch kick can do wonders (while pressing the gas you quickly kick the clutch in and out, sends a jolt down the driveline). But whenever I can I like to initiate my drifts via a method that's based on "braking" rather than powering, I find it much more satisfying and easier to control slides by first allowing the car to drift without any power input, then maintaining that slide by getting on the throttle when necessary/to adjust the line of drift.

xtro
26-04-2016, 16:59
I drove a lot of laps on brno yesterday until i finally understood the problem ... My controller sensitivity brake steering and accelerator were at 50 hence total lack of feel and a sort of delay that made me miss transitions... Bumping this to 100 changed everything... I still camt drift yet but now everything feels a lot more progressive and controllable. Of course at 100 you can use the whole 1080 degrees of the wheel for more precision. Ill start testing your tunes on the bmw tonight Jussi. Thanks again for the tips. Ill post a video when i succeed. Btw which track is the best for drifting??

Linx
26-04-2016, 17:06
I like using Catalunya. I forget the name of the section of the course but it's the smallest one. It's cool cuz it's short and you have a bit of everything in it.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-04-2016, 19:04
For me it's the Hockenheim Short layout. Lots of slow and medium speed corners that you can approach with different techniques and very few boring straights.

Krus Control
26-04-2016, 20:11
For learning to drift I would say the best combination for training that I can think of is the Mercedes 300SEL at California Highway. If you get the hang of this car, its a piece of cake. And the default is pretty decent and good for drifting. And at California Highway you're going to have to rely on your skills more, as its not going to be so much an exercise of repetition. This is what I did early on and it helps you come to grips with the game, at least it helped me. Starting with the FRS Rocket Bunny or especially the RADBUL will be completely overwhelming and might not get you very far. I also like the 1M (regular not Stance Works) like Jussi, but I think the 300SEL is a more easy going drifter.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-04-2016, 21:26
The 300SEL is indeed a very good drifter, but IMO it's so far removed from the more modern cars due to the vintage tyres that it's not that helpful for learning to control other cars. Still it's an absolute blast to hoon around with. =)

Krus Control
26-04-2016, 22:17
Actually I think its great for learning how to drift modern cars. I would say the dynamics closely reflect that of my real life FRS. The in game FRS tires, even the rain ones, have far too much grip. I think the grip levels, as well as the techniques to get a good, proper drift out of the 300SEL and Redpig tires actually are closer to how my real life FRS behaves than the in game Nitto tires. Though with the old alternate handling mod the in game FRS felt IDENTICAL to my real one.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-04-2016, 23:43
Well yes, the vintage racing tyres on the 300SEL have a roughly equivalent grip as modern "normal" or "low end sports" road tyres, while the lowest performance modern road tyres in-game are still very high end sports tyres in real life, but I specifically meant that the 300SEL doesn't necessarily help learning to drift the modern road cars in-game. =)