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Mulder71
13-02-2016, 08:33
I'm doing this carreer thing..zero to hero.. and after some good and some worse cars (karts - formula gulf, rookie, c, b, a) i made it to LMP1 and get this video about the best of the best in motorsports..come on guys..this is bull Formula 1 is the top of motorsports and in pcars formula a gets the closest..just look at the leaderboards.
So not those prototype things..but anyway, i can see how this game is build around closed cars and not formula cars..so ok..to each his own.

But than you drive one of these things..terrible !
How can a game claim that this is the superior class in the game and than make it so lousy?

i'm actually thinking about doing minimal length races just to complete that challenge..not even interested in doing the setups to taken them on at 100%..what an awfull cars..no fun at all to drive them..

Please convince me this gets better when you do the setups or something because out of the box these cars suck big time..feels like work having to do a season with them :(

Kroegtijgertje
13-02-2016, 08:45
Obviously you're a Formula 1 / open wheel type of guy.
LMP1 cars are totally different compared to open wheel class cars.
The fact that you don't like the LMP1 class, doesn't make them bad cars.

Umer Ahmad
13-02-2016, 08:49
Oohhhh you really stepped in it this time:

"Formula 1 is the top of motorsports"

As a fan of both I'll say that while F1 is the top "drivers competition" in the world WEC/LMP1 is the most serious "manufacturers competition" in the world.

Seems you are assigning a lot of significance to laptime and have an under-appreciation for reliability and efficiency.

An average F1 race is under 2 hours yes? It's a fun 2 hours but still just 2 hours.

(Paging Dr. Lasukie)

seb02
13-02-2016, 09:06
I'm doing this carreer thing..zero to hero.. and after some good and some worse cars (karts - formula gulf, rookie, c, b, a) i made it to LMP1 and get this video about the best of the best in motorsports..come on guys..this is bull Formula 1 is the top of motorsports and in pcars formula a gets the closest..just look at the leaderboards.
So not those prototype things..but anyway, i can see how this game is build around closed cars and not formula cars..so ok..to each his own.

But than you drive one of these things..terrible !
How can a game claim that this is the superior class in the game and than make it so lousy?

i'm actually thinking about doing minimal length races just to complete that challenge..not even interested in doing the setups to taken them on at 100%..what an awfull cars..no fun at all to drive them..

Please convince me this gets better when you do the setups or something because out of the box these cars suck big time..feels like work having to do a season with them :(

100% in LMP1 = race 20 min ( ridiculous to me). So you can race 100%

APR193
13-02-2016, 09:07
F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport is your opinion. Just like F1 drivers being the best in the world is an opinion (one I don't agree with). As others have said, you not liking LMP1 doesn't make the cars "lousy". Personally I think F1 is dreadful, and I haven't touched the FA car in game other than to unlock the invitational winning the FA championship unlocks (did it on minimum length races, low ai setting to get it done quicker) Formula 1 is a sorry excuse for motorsport in my opinion.

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 09:13
lol..did not know it was "a thing"
Yes im into open wheel series in general, i do not care for DTM, le mans, clio cups or what have you. Don't even care for much watching it on tv.

In real life for superior class i look at one thing..the fastest car around a track. If LMP1 can do better laptimes than Formula 1 than they are truly superior. I'm not going to watch a race for 24 hours, 2 hours is long enough, make it 1 hour and still would be fine with me.

Looking at project cars i do care about the fastest car, but also about fun to drive. Most fun i have had is probably formula rookie since that was the only class that had a natural feel in project cars and was able to be competitive without tweaking the setup all the time.
I have not tried the saloon cars and such but i expect they are a better experience than some formula cars (formula B was the worst) since i expect formula cars was developed for saloon cars, the formula cars are implemented and it is fun but it is flawed in the physics department, probably because it was not build for formula cars originally.

Back to my point..after doing all those classes..lmp1 really feels awful..it is slow, sluggish, indirect, i do not "feel" the car at all and i can not drive it from a decent cocpit view, best i can do is tha camera just above the road where you don't see the car at all..a big dissapointment

Just saying..if you build a game that promotes LMP1 as the top dog..it does not have to be fastest but is should be a joy to drive.. and it is not..perhaps it'll take time but i do not enjoy cars that corner half the speed i'm used to and under or over steer for no reason at all, kers that applies itself whenever charged, i don't even get a decent slipstream effect on spa..what's up with that?

SO..should i copy some setups and try again or just work my way through the season as fast as possible? surely if a lot of guys do like driving lmp1 than there should be something good in it?

Otherworld
13-02-2016, 09:13
F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport is your opinion. Just like F1 drivers being the best in the world is an opinion (one I don't agree with). As others have said, you not liking LMP1 doesn't make the cars "lousy". Personally I think F1 is dreadful, and I haven't touched the FA car in game other than to unlock the invitational winning the FA championship unlocks (did it on minimum length races, low ai setting to get it done quicker) Formula 1 is a sorry excuse for motorsport in my opinion.
Quoted for truth. I'll add that in terms of raw speed, top LMP1 drivers could take on top F1 drivers any day of the week, whether in LMP1s or in F1s.

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 09:14
100% in LMP1 = race 20 min ( ridiculous to me). So you can race 100%

i meant 100% ai skill

Otherworld
13-02-2016, 09:18
lol..did not know it was "a thing"
Yes im into open wheel series in general, i do not care for DTM, le mans, clio cups or what have you. Don't even care for much watching it on tv.

In real life for superior class i look at one thing..the fastest car around a track. If LMP1 can do better laptimes than Formula 1 than they are truly superior. I'm not going to watch a race for 24 hours, 2 hours is long enough, make it 1 hour and still would be fine with me.

Looking at project cars i do care about the fastest car, but also about fun to drive. Most fun i have had is probably formula rookie since that was the only class that had a natural feel in project cars and was able to be competitive without tweaking the setup all the time.
I have not tried the saloon cars and such but i expect they are a better experience than some formula cars (formula B was the worst) since i expect formula cars was developed for saloon cars, the formula cars are implemented and it is fun but it is flawed in the physics department, probably because it was not build for formula cars originally.

Back to my point..after doing all those classes..lmp1 really feels awful..it is slow, sluggish, indirect, i do not "feel" the car at all and i can not drive it from a decent cocpit view, best i can do is tha camera just above the road where you don't see the car at all..a big dissapointment

Just saying..if you build a game that promotes LMP1 as the top dog..it does not have to be fastest but is should be a joy to drive.. and it is not..perhaps it'll take time but i do not enjoy cars that corner half the speed i'm used to and under or over steer for no reason at all, kers that applies itself whenever charged, i don't even get a decent slipstream effect on spa..what's up with that?

SO..should i copy some setups and try again or just work my way through the season as fast as possible? surely if a lot of guys do like driving lmp1 than there should be something good in it?
Well, a game that pretends to be a simulator should not make LMP1s "a joy to drive", it should make LMP1s drive as close as possible as they drive in reality. As for the driving of LMP1s, yes they corner slower than F1s (which equates to more skillful driving), yes they feel less like a kart on steroids than F1s (which is normal), yes the visibility is very limited just like in reality (more challenge, once again), and yes, the main interest - and the art - of driving LMP1s come from Endurance racing with traffic. That's why we can agree that the 20 minutes races with LMP1-only are dumb as f**k. But try a race with P1s, P2s, and GT3s and you'll see what the joy of driving a LMP1 means.
I'll add to that two things : LMP1s are slower than F1s because they're built for Endurance races. If you had to last 24 hours or even 6 hours with your F1, they wouldn't go as fast. And LMP1s have the potential to have 1000+ HP permanently, it's the rules which limit the amount of time they can be on 1000+ HP.

seb02
13-02-2016, 09:20
[QUOTE=Mulder71;1232872]i meant 100% ai skill[/QUOTE

Sorry guy. I like LMP but less than f1. Personally i won t try with IA at 100%

APR193
13-02-2016, 09:26
Well, a game that pretends to be a simulator should not make LMP1s "a joy to drive", it should make LMP1s drive as close as possible as they drive in reality. As for the driving of LMP1s, yes they corner slower than F1s (which equates to more skillful driving), yes they feel less like a kart on steroids than F1s (which is normal), yes the visibility is very limited just like in reality (more challenge, once again), and yes, the main interest - and the art - of driving LMP1s come from Endurance racing with traffic. That's why we can agree that the 20 minutes races with LMP1-only are dumb as f**k. But try a race with P1s, P2s, and GT3s and you'll see what the joy of driving a LMP1 means.
I'll add to that two things : LMP1s are slower than F1s because they're built for Endurance races. If you had to last 24 hours or even 6 hours with your F1, they wouldn't go as fast. And LMP1s have the potential to have 1000+ HP permanently, it's the rules which limit the amount of time they can be on 1000+ HP.

I'll add to this that LMP1 cars don't have KERS, its the hybrid system they have in real life and its automatically used by the cars computers, just like in real life. It also limits you to a certain amount a lap, just like real life.

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 09:26
Quoted for truth. I'll add that in terms of raw speed, top LMP1 drivers could take on top F1 drivers any day of the week, whether in LMP1s or in F1s.

Not saying you are wrong but in gereral drivers turn to other classes when they are unable to get a seat in F1.
Some F1 drivers do le mans for fun at the side..Hulkenberg won while he is average in F1.

And sure F1 is boring a lot of times, too much money involved they rather finish 8th then risk crashing for 6th and sure it sucks they can not go flat out because they have to manage their tyres and fuel too much. Actually a shame the pcars did not get that into the game ;)

Thank god we got Max now for some proper F1 racing action, hope there is more youngsters like that coming through.

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 09:27
I'll add to this that LMP1 cars don't have KERS, its the hybrid system they have in real life and its automatically used by the cars computers, just like in real life. It also limits you to a certain amount a lap, just like real life.
It just applies whenever you hit the throttle when there is juice in the battery..by the time you need it it is drained

APR193
13-02-2016, 09:31
It just applies whenever you hit the throttle when there is juice in the battery..by the time you need it it is drained

it only applies when other a certain throttle percentage (I think 90% but don't know exact?) There's different ways you can use it, different ways each car uses it etc. Not sure how much it limits you to each lap (its some unit of energy that has been confirmed on here before) but most tracks it won't be a problem. Tracks like Le Mans etc you may run out towards the end of the lap

Shadowoff
13-02-2016, 09:33
I'm doing this carreer thing..zero to hero.. and after some good and some worse cars (karts - formula gulf, rookie, c, b, a) i made it to LMP1 and get this video about the best of the best in motorsports..come on guys..this is bull Formula 1 is the top of motorsports and in pcars formula a gets the closest..just look at the leaderboards.
So not those prototype things..but anyway, i can see how this game is build around closed cars and not formula cars..so ok..to each his own.

But than you drive one of these things..terrible !
How can a game claim that this is the superior class in the game and than make it so lousy?

i'm actually thinking about doing minimal length races just to complete that challenge..not even interested in doing the setups to taken them on at 100%..what an awfull cars..no fun at all to drive them..

Please convince me this gets better when you do the setups or something because out of the box these cars suck big time..feels like work having to do a season with them :(

you cant say "fastest is hardest". F1 drivers drive 1 hour and 30 minutes aproximately in the fastest cars of the world. LMP1 drivers drive 6h up to 24h and have to be all the time competitive. One slightly mistake and all you worked for in (just an example) 2 hours is lost...

Otherworld
13-02-2016, 10:29
Not saying you are wrong but in gereral drivers turn to other classes when they are unable to get a seat in F1.
Some F1 drivers do le mans for fun at the side..Hulkenberg won while he is average in F1.

And sure F1 is boring a lot of times, too much money involved they rather finish 8th then risk crashing for 6th and sure it sucks they can not go flat out because they have to manage their tyres and fuel too much. Actually a shame the pcars did not get that into the game ;)

Thank god we got Max now for some proper F1 racing action, hope there is more youngsters like that coming through.

Not saying you are wrong but in gereral drivers turn to other classes when they are unable to get a seat in F1.
Some F1 drivers do le mans for fun at the side..Hulkenberg won while he is average in F1.

And sure F1 is boring a lot of times, too much money involved they rather finish 8th then risk crashing for 6th and sure it sucks they can not go flat out because they have to manage their tyres and fuel too much. Actually a shame the pcars did not get that into the game ;)

Thank god we got Max now for some proper F1 racing action, hope there is more youngsters like that coming through.

That is true - or at least it was until recently -, most drivers want primarily to go into F1 and become Endurance drivers as a default option. But the big thing is that most drivers who manage to go into F1 go there because of money, not because of skill. That doesn't mean that all paying drivers are bad - Alonso and even Senna were originally paying drivers -, but it does mean that people who had a great career in other series could have had a great career in F1 if they'd have had the money, thus they're not necessarily worse than F1 drivers.
I'll add that being a good F1 driver and being a good Le Mans driver asks for different skillsets - the one and only time Raikonnen tried the Peugeot 908, he beat the test track's record ; but how would he have done in a real race situation, where you have to manage traffic intelligently, where you have to drive while being moderately sleep-deprived, where you have to accept that you're not alone driving the car and that you're part of a 3-men driving team, where you have to efficiently communicate with engineers and mechanics?
As for Hulkenberg, well I'd say the fact that he won LM while being average in F1 is either proof of (1) him being more suited for Endurance driving than F1 driving or (2) him being just a very good driver with a shit car in F1.

Funny thing about his Le Mans win though, if you look at his stats and his teammates' during the race, he has the slowest best lap of his car (3:18:841 vs 3:18:674 for Tandy and 3:18:595 for Bamber) as well as the second slowest best lap of the first three cars (only slower is Webber, another F1 driver, in 3:19:543). He was also slower than his teammates if you look at the average lap time (he's even almost one whole second slower than Tandy in that regard). However, he spent more time in the car than his teammates (11 stints vs 8 to Tandy and 10 to Bamber ; 144 laps vs 120 to Tandy and 131 to Bamber) and among the top three only Tréluyer in the #7 Audi accomplished more laps (146). Thus we can conclude that despite being a F1 driver, the reason he won Le Mans is - in addition with the fact of having good teammates, a very good car, spending very little time in the pits and having some luck about mechanical issues - his consistency and stamina, NOT his raw speed (which is what you'd expect from a F1 driver).

Sparkie84
13-02-2016, 10:33
Not saying you are wrong but in gereral drivers turn to other classes when they are unable to get a seat in F1.
Some F1 drivers do le mans for fun at the side..Hulkenberg won while he is average in F1.

What a shallow and under-researched argument. Drivers turn to alternatives because the sponsorship money required to get to F1 is ridiculously high, and seats are given to those with more money, rather than talent. Additionally upcoming drivers from the likes of GP2, GP3, F3, Formula Renault 3.5 (among others) are scrapping for 3-4 (maximum) vacant seats per year in F1. Even Stoffel Vandoorne has had to search for alternatives for 2016. Those drivers need to go somewhere, and increasing numbers are even heading towards LMP2 now. You clearly haven't paid much attention to Nico Hulkenberg, either.

Also should point out Andre Lotterer doing the Belgian GP in 2014 in the Caterham. Didn't stand a chance of getting a good result due to the car, but was instantly as quick as his team mate (Marcus Ericsson) and qualified a full second faster. Lotterer was in his 30s by this point, doing a one-off race in a car he'd never tried before. Shame his race lasted barely a lap, the car broke down, but shows a decent LMP1 driver can do good things in F1.


And sure F1 is boring a lot of times, too much money involved they rather finish 8th then risk crashing for 6th and sure it sucks they can not go flat out because they have to manage their tyres and fuel too much. Actually a shame the pcars did not get that into the game ;)

Thank god we got Max now for some proper F1 racing action, hope there is more youngsters like that coming through.

If you want some proper 'action' you should actually try watching a WEC race sometime. Flat out driving, some brilliant battles in all classes, and the traffic management skills required are incredible. A YouTube search for the Silverstone and Fuji races in 2015 will bring up plenty of examples. For someone like Nico Hulkenberg it was probably a relief to be able to drive flat out the whole time (I know its been something Mark Webber was delighted with).

As for Max Verstappen, there is no doubting his talent but he is far too young and immature at the moment. Should have spent a year in GP2 first, honing his race craft. Those overtaking moves are spectacular but one day his luck will run out and he'll have a crash far bigger than Monaco '15.

Azure Flare
13-02-2016, 10:45
As interesting as I find F1 cars, LMPs are even more interesting to me. An F1 car is highly-strung and a race is ~90 minutes on average. An LMP is also highly strung, but WEC races are at least 6 hours, and they are going flat-out the whole time. When it comes afternoon on Sunday during Le Mans, I am astonished that the cars that were clean at the start are now covered in dirt and grime, the entire team is tired, but the drivers are still going as hard as they did at the start.

I'd say that's pretty badass.

Sparkie84
13-02-2016, 10:51
As interesting as I find F1 cars, LMPs are even more interesting to me. An F1 car is highly-strung and a race is ~90 minutes on average. An LMP is also highly strung, but WEC races are at least 6 hours, and they are going flat-out the whole time. When it comes afternoon on Sunday during Le Mans, I am astonished that the cars that were clean at the start are now covered in dirt and grime, the entire team is tired, but the drivers are still going as hard as they did at the start.

I'd say that's pretty badass.

Very true. Additionally while F1 drivers are having excruciating lessons in tyre management, they're still far bigger with loads more grip than other forms of motorsport. An LMP1 car optimised with F1 tyres would be unbelievably quick, while an F1 car on endurance tyres would probably be on P1 pace as long as the races weren't too long.

I love the look of endurance cars at the end of a 24 hour race, they almost look like they've been through a war.

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 11:31
In Project cars i just tuned down the ai to 75%, won a few 4 minute races using the standard setup and inside camera that is in the middle and i am coming to grips with the car so ok..it is a big step down from fomrula A but after some laps it is ok on it's own merrit. Had a peek at the leaderboard and i am still seconds down from driving a top time but that is probably because i didn't change the setup ;)

pollinho123
13-02-2016, 12:45
LMPs are actually benefitting a lot from longer races, they start to really get fun halfway through the first stint when you start overtaking the less powered classes and it usually keeps improving throughout the whole race. Also pit strategies are on a whole different level on endurance races, than they are on Formula racing. But all that stuff kicks in when you have the time to do those longer races. Imo, the racing you get for that investment of time is perfectly rewarding.

Plus, I love driving these things way more than I do with Formula cars, but that's just personal preference.

hkraft300
13-02-2016, 13:55
So like. Aside from an F1 vs LMP1 pissing contest. And also being taken to school on the matter of driver skill...
What is it about the LMP cars you hate so much? More specifically, which LMP1 cars have you driven?
They're closed wheel prototypes. They're bigger and heavier than Formula cars. Powered by very different engines. Some serious variety in the LMP1 class - each are very unique, drive very differently to each other (yes. Even the R18 pair except the Alpine/Oreca which are the same car). Each have their strengths.
You can't expect a closed wheel car to drive like an open wheel car. Top tier or not.

Slowsley
13-02-2016, 14:32
Weber seems to be enjoying the switch.

kevin kirk
13-02-2016, 15:43
this is the kind of stuff I don't get.Each lmp1 car feels different to drive. I would say they feel completely different from car to car. Never mind the endless car set up and control options. How can people just lump all the lmp1 cars together and say the lmp1 cars drive terrible when each of them drives so different from the other?

TheReaper GT
13-02-2016, 16:37
this is the kind of stuff I don't get.Each lmp1 car feels different to drive. I would say they feel completely different from car to car. Never mind the endless car set up and control options. How can people just lump all the lmp1 cars together and say the lmp1 cars drive terrible when each of them drives so different from the other?

Add to that the different power plants, hybrid systems, power, and weight, it's just the top of the top, without an old man trying to convince the audience of what is and what isn't fun....

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 18:25
Let's not mix up reality and project cars here.. the thing that i started this thread about is the "promotion" in the project cars career path from FA to LMP1. That feels like going down the ranks, not as up. And it feels that way because you get a car that does not handle better is not more exiting and is not faster but much slower. By this logic a promotion path would be from LMP2 to LMP1 formula C and call it "the Pinnacle".. it's just not right claiming that LMP1 is the Pinnacle and to get there you have to be champion in Formula A. In that light i was baffled about lmp1 when i first tried it..how can they do this ??

All this in the game guys, not in real life.

In real life, i don't know anything about LMP1 or 2 or whatever.. so i do not dislike it, i just don't have an interest in it. I like the disucssion about different LMP1 cars and engines..but the same goes for formula 1, the toro rosso has one of the best chassis but lacks the power and the Mercedes mainly wins because it has the best engine. All of this is not even available in Project cars so count your blessings that you have different LMP1 cars. For me it's just a thing in the career i'm playing out and i had no clue what car i was driving..just had a look it's a Marek something lmp1 it says.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-02-2016, 18:35
I always expected the LMP1 career path to have super long races compared to the other series (or at least F1), and with that LMP1 being the pinnacle would have made good sense to me from a gaming perspective, it's more challenging to drive long endurance races than short sprints after all. But since finding out that the LMP1 races are that short even at 100% length for a large portion of them, that logic doesn't really hold up anymore.

TheReaper GT
13-02-2016, 18:36
Let's not mix up reality and project cars here.. the thing that i started this thread about is the "promotion" in the project cars career path from FA to LMP1. That feels like going down the ranks, not as up. And it feels that way because you get a car that does not handle better is not more exiting and is not faster but much slower. By this logic a promotion path would be from LMP2 to LMP1 formula C and call it "the Pinnacle".. it's just not right claiming that LMP1 is the Pinnacle and to get there you have to be champion in Formula A. In that light i was baffled about lmp1 when i first tried it..how can they do this ??

All this in the game guys, not in real life.

In real life, i don't know anything about LMP1 or 2 or whatever.. so i do not dislike it, i just don't have an interest in it. I like the disucssion about different LMP1 cars and engines..but the same goes for formula 1, the toro rosso has one of the best chassis but lacks the power and the Mercedes mainly wins because it has the best engine. All of this is not even available in Project cars so count your blessings that you have different LMP1 cars. For me it's just a thing in the career i'm playing out and i had no clue what car i was driving..just had a look it's a Marek something lmp1 it says.

But all f1 cars follow f1 guidelines, all have the same type of engine, they have to use the same kers system and turbo system. Lmp1 cars are totally different one from another. Porsche has 4 cylinder, turbo fed hybrid system while Toyota uses a v8 and a more conventional hybrid system. Audi uses a v6 diesel and a flywheel based hybrid system while the others have gasoline engines. Nissan have a front wheel drive Lmp1 carrying a hybrid system to feed the rear axel....

And this game is a simulator and many formula 1 drivers move to gt and Lmp1 cars after their careers end on f1...
I'm sorry but to talk about motorsport you have to know about it or be willing to learn a lot from people who love this thing... F1 not the top category of Motorsports, endurance in any form is... The most important race in the world is Le Mans and that's a fact... I hope you dismiss your prejudice against other classes and watch some endurance races, even if it's for an hour, if you live motorsport you will fall in love with this thing...

Mulder71
13-02-2016, 18:59
What a shallow and under-researched argument..
As for Max Verstappen, there is no doubting his talent but he is far too young and immature at the moment. Should have spent a year in GP2 first, honing his race craft. Those overtaking moves are spectacular but one day his luck will run out and he'll have a crash far bigger than Monaco '15.

Off topic, but gotta say back at ya here for shallow and under-reserached.. how is he too young an immature? He had the best result anyone had in a torro rosso since Vettel and he did score points in races where some F1 veterans had a hard time dealing with the circumstances, the US GP was perhaps most impressive for showing how mature he is as a driver. At Monaco keeping up with the race leaders to pass other cars in the gap they had too make for being lapped was briljant. His crash there was more down to Grossjean pulling a trick on him lifting off far earlier, he didn't anticipate on that kind of trickery, honest rookie mistake.
Granted his overtake at Spa round the outside was briljant but maybe somewhat too risky, other than that i can not recall any weird or dangerous moves by him..just amazing car control and smart driving. I've seen far worse and dangerous actions by oher drivers over the past few years I haven't seen a driver do so many impressive overtakes in F1, he's got 4 moves in the top 10 overtakes from last season.

Top 10 2015 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rKnFyaGR1s)
and some experts on the matter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9jxEbWNgM)

Been looking for lmp1 footage but didn't find any real impressive stuff, you got some urls for me?

Otherworld
13-02-2016, 19:25
I agree with you that LMP1-only races shouldn't have been promoted as the top of the top in pCars. Multi-class Endurance racing should have been.

Rambo_Commando
13-02-2016, 19:27
I kinda agree with the OP that going from FA to LMP1 seems like a step back in the game. The best fix would be to slot in the Formula Renault in between FC and FB. This would keep the LMP1 in its own discipline.

I'm a huge F1 fan. F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports because of technical innovations, aero design, engine technologies, finance, glamour, etc. However, that doesn't mean it's a better series than WEC or LMP1 or GT3. Personally I think the GT3 series offers the best racing in the game and the LMP1's are great fun to drive.

Otherworld
13-02-2016, 21:15
Off topic, but gotta say back at ya here for shallow and under-reserached.. how is he too young an immature? He had the best result anyone had in a torro rosso since Vettel and he did score points in races where some F1 veterans had a hard time dealing with the circumstances, the US GP was perhaps most impressive for showing how mature he is as a driver. At Monaco keeping up with the race leaders to pass other cars in the gap they had too make for being lapped was briljant. His crash there was more down to Grossjean pulling a trick on him lifting off far earlier, he didn't anticipate on that kind of trickery, honest rookie mistake.
Granted his overtake at Spa round the outside was briljant but maybe somewhat too risky, other than that i can not recall any weird or dangerous moves by him..just amazing car control and smart driving. I've seen far worse and dangerous actions by oher drivers over the past few years I haven't seen a driver do so many impressive overtakes in F1, he's got 4 moves in the top 10 overtakes from last season.

Top 10 2015 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rKnFyaGR1s)
and some experts on the matter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9jxEbWNgM)

Been looking for lmp1 footage but didn't find any real impressive stuff, you got some urls for me?

Audi and Porsche gave us some sweet LMP1 action last year :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMGvm_7wePA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b-wu3cVjeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZOMYjaGt8

kevin kirk
13-02-2016, 22:29
I have to say from following the WEC and following F1, the WEC has long since past F1 in being the top of motorsports racing. From the views of the manufactures. From the view of how big the races are. From the view F1 drivers themselves. Its were all the car manufactures put their effort to be apart of. You can combine F1 2 biggest races and it still wont touch lemans and spa with the other races are just as big as the F1 race. Hell, the nurburgring decided a WEC event was so big it wasn't worth it to them to pick up the F1 race after hockenheim couldn't do it last year. The day of just being Ferrari and McLaren meant F1 was something special are long gone. Even in America the mighty nascar cant stand next to the WEC when they come to texas but have no trouble in having the texas oval race on the same weekend of the texas F1 race.

hkraft300
13-02-2016, 22:43
At the end of the day, its the way this game is.
No point complaining about it.
Some people just don't like driving LMP cars. Some people don't enjoy the GT cars. Some hate the open wheelers. Some can't deal with the Lotus F1. Some (most?) Hate the karts.

Was it necessary to create a thread about it?

#generationopinion

Slowsley
14-02-2016, 04:35
.... F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports because of technical innovations, aero design, engine technologies....

I respectfully and massively disagree. The aero of an LMP1 is much more advanced and it has to be. Because of the "open" regs in LMP1, technical and innovations are just coming on in leaps and bounds.

Mulder71
14-02-2016, 15:19
Audi and Porsche gave us some sweet LMP1 action last year :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMGvm_7wePA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b-wu3cVjeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZOMYjaGt8

Well had a look and sorry but it is not very interesting to me.. 2 cars competing where the porsche is clearly faster on the straights and the Audi is clearly faster in the corners with the rain equalises the cornering in the 2nd video. so i can predict easily that porsche won on all circuits with long straights and audi won on al circuits with a lot of cornering and shorter straights..nothing a driver can do here.

The impression i'm getting from this is that this is more a competiton of cars and the drivers make even less difference than in F1

Shadowoff
14-02-2016, 15:22
Well had a look and sorry but it is not very interesting to me.. 2 cars competing where the porsche is clearly faster on the straights and the Audi is clearly faster in the corners with the rain equalises the cornering in the 2nd video. so i can predict easily that porsche won on all circuits with long straights and audi won on al circuits with a lot of cornering and shorter straights..nothing a driver can do here.

The impression i'm getting from this is that this is more a competiton of cars and the drivers make even less difference than in F1

...Audi also won Spa and Spa is for Prototypes a low downforce track... You might be right, but take a look at F1: 2 Mercedes pull away and just one Ferrari can keep close... In LMP1 its the same, only that the Audi and Porsche has different chassis and aerodynamics...

Puffpirat
14-02-2016, 16:04
You know, you can actually love both :p I quite enjoy both classes, with F1 being the pinnacle of open wheelers while LMP1 for me is the pinnacle of endurance racing. And that is the important point, it's hard to compare the two, because the set goal for each race car is different. Some say the LMP1s do the speed of F1 but over 24h. Well for one they are not as fast, which has it's reason, and second, why would a F1 team build the car sturdier than it needs to be.

Was it Chapman that said, the perfect race car is the one that breaks directly after the finish line. You get my point..

Last year german car magazine Auto Motor and Sport actually did compare F1 (Mercedes W06) and LMP1 (Porsche 919) (article (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/exklusiver-vergleich-zwischen-mercedes-amg-w06-und-porsche-919-10327845.html)). I can only recommend reading it and looking at the pictures, it's brilliant and really interesting, especially when they compare the fastest laps of both.

Some interesting points:

With the new F1 regs, the durability of both engines isn't that different. While the Porsche engine is built to survive about 6.000km, the best Merc engine managed 4.800km. When the rules change in 2018 that the manufactures can only use three engines per season (not decided yet) an F1 engine will easily do a Le Mans distance.

The engines and hybrid components are actually very similar. While F1 was forced to run 1.6l V6 turbos, Porsche decided to also run a small displacement turbo, a 2.0l V4. Both use V-engines because they are an integral component of the rear structure of the car. The list goes on as both recover energy from the exhaust gases and from braking energy. Porsche is actually the only LMP manufacturer to do so (exhaust energy), and imho it's a mistake by the others to not do the same (mainly Toyota as Audi uses a Diesel where this system isn't as efficient as on a gasoline engine).

The rest of the recovery, uses and corresponding strategy for the electrical power are very much dictated by the rules. Porsche and Mercedes are as clever as each other to make the best use of what's there. Both are not free in this aspect.

So one has to look a bit deeper into the matter, it's not like the guys in either F1 or LMP are stupid. Both do the best they can with a given set of rules. The F1 is faster, but it's also 250kg lighter, the LMP is more efficient, but it has an aero advantage because of its closed cockpit. I love both :)

Alan Dallas
14-02-2016, 16:37
I may have missed it mentioned previously. But there isn't a Pro race driver on the planet that would turn down an invitation to race at 24hr of LeMans in a Prototype, that includes F1 drivers(and they have).

kevin kirk
14-02-2016, 17:32
WEC had some great racing last year

Otherworld
14-02-2016, 18:13
Well had a look and sorry but it is not very interesting to me.. 2 cars competing where the porsche is clearly faster on the straights and the Audi is clearly faster in the corners with the rain equalises the cornering in the 2nd video. so i can predict easily that porsche won on all circuits with long straights and audi won on al circuits with a lot of cornering and shorter straights..nothing a driver can do here.

The impression i'm getting from this is that this is more a competiton of cars and the drivers make even less difference than in F1
Well yeah LMP1 allows for cars with different philosophies, different strenghts and weaknesses. The drivers can do something about that, like the Audi instantly drafting the Porsche in the rain. And funnily enough Audi won Spa (fast track) while Porsche won tracks like Nürburgring GP (slow track). But yes, Endurance in general is more a car competition than a driver competition - though it's the same thing in F1 since... forever? - ; monotype series (or fake monotype series like DTM) are where it's at if you want pure driver competition.

Puffpirat
14-02-2016, 18:25
That was down to Porsches strategy with the aero packages. They ran silverstone and spa in Le Mans config and then finally after the 24h developed a real high downforce pack. After Porsche got their aero right Audi didn't stand a chance.

Edit: Audi also ran their Le Mans Spec in Spa but it was said to be more efficient and higher DF overall than the Porsche.

DreamsKnight
15-02-2016, 18:33
i love f1, i see f1, i pay the payTV only to see f1 and motogp.

the last two years of f1 are the worst ever seen. qualifying is a team mates battles, race is very near to be a team mates battles. race is endurance race, with fuel economy and tyres economy. how can we speak of economy in F1? i don't complain about engines. the "electric" touch was necessary.. to go FASTER, but cars are slower than previous years.

verstappen is the last touch of F1 decay . He has talent, but it is able to drive because cars are easier to drive than previous years. I think it's also important to see who has the athleticism of a mozzarella.
and his overtakes much acclaimed are made to CLEARLY lower car. the one at SPA is ridicolous.

and honestly, looking at Formula indy... F1 cars look horrible.

just to remember, this is F1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJZTc1U1tM

Puffpirat
15-02-2016, 18:54
i don't complain about engines. the "electric" touch was necessary.. to go FASTER, but cars are slower than previous years.

and honestly, looking at Formula indy... F1 cars look horrible.I know looks are subjective but imho last years Merc is one beauty. The nose regs didn't help with the look of most cars but Merc showed it can be done.

The cars are faster, on the straights. That they don't achieve the lap times they did in the mid-2000s is purely down to aero cuts. Going from 2013 to 2014 regs, the cars lost nearly 30% aero. That they come even remotely close to the lap times of the crazy aero days is mind blowing and only tells how good the new engines really are.

The best V10s had some 900bhp. That's a figure the modern hybrids aren't too far off, all while consuming 30% less fuel.

kevin kirk
15-02-2016, 18:59
last years F1 car broke the lap record at spa. I think they might have broke Monzas record last year too. If not they were pretty close.

Puffpirat
15-02-2016, 19:09
last years F1 car broke the lap record at spa. I think they might have broke Monzas record last year too. If not they were pretty close.

Not quite. They are 2-3s away from the lap records (qualifying), in race pace even more. But most race lap records where done in the days of refueling and tire war. But they where faster in Spa and Monza than the 2013 cars at least :) To be fair quali spa 2013 wasn't completely dry.

kevin kirk
15-02-2016, 19:20
Not quite. They are 2-3s away from the lap records (qualifying), in race pace even more. But most race lap records where done in the days of refueling and tire war. But they where faster in Spa and Monza than the 2013 cars at least :) To be fair quali spa 2013 wasn't completely dry.
.....you are correct must of miss understood what was said,sorry about that

DreamsKnight
15-02-2016, 19:31
i love f1, i see f1, i pay the payTV only to see f1 and motogp.


i was at work and i want to come back home, so i miss some important points:

- no qualyfing tyres.
- no qualyfing setups.
- no warm up.
- and so, no rain setups (good for safety!!! sarcasm inside)
- tyres rules are ridicolous. they must use both compunds, they start with the compounds of qualifying. !!!!!
- fuel rules are ridicolous, and how the limit of 100 l is calculated with the flow meter (i hope google give me the right english word)
- hybrid governed by rules: how can be more beatifull if everyonme develop his own system? (they miss the best part of wec)
- rules, over rules, over rules... and they don't understand that simple is better. tyres rules in 2016 will be amazing (sarcasm inside).
- no tests (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
- no development (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) so at the first race you know all
- and so, no battles between best drivers.
- and so, as Italian and Ferrari fan: alonso, button, mclaren and honda in those positions.

last year was the first time i saw le mans....

DreamsKnight
15-02-2016, 19:38
I know looks are subjective but imho last years Merc is one beauty. The nose regs didn't help with the look of most cars but Merc showed it can be done.

The cars are faster, on the straights. That they don't achieve the lap times they did in the mid-2000s is purely down to aero cuts. Going from 2013 to 2014 regs, the cars lost nearly 30% aero. That they come even remotely close to the lap times of the crazy aero days is mind blowing and only tells how good the new engines really are.

The best V10s had some 900bhp. That's a figure the modern hybrids aren't too far off, all while consuming 30% less fuel.

yes. better engine in worse cars.
it is logic. thank you ecclestone, thank you todt. (sarcasm)

and everyone complains only about engine noise. yeah i miss the noise, but it is the last thing. obviously the only new rule is about engine noise.

Puffpirat
15-02-2016, 19:57
i was at work and i want to come back home, so i miss some important points:

What, you find the current rules complicated? ;) You have some valid points, but quite honestly some are rather wrong.


- no qualyfing tyres.don't know if that really is a bad thing. Seeing how F1 wants a greener image (don't know if thats a good thing ;)) it makes sense to use the same tire for quali and start. And they do get an extra set of tires for quali, it's just not a "pure" qualifier.


- no qualyfing setups.No-one is forbidden to use a quali setup, it just doesn't make sense because you have to use it the whole race, and thats where you get the points. I guess you mean no parc-ferme between quali and race, but that is long gone. And it's good, because it brings some action into the race. Maybe someone goes more into the direction of quali and others more to race, that will mix the field.


- no warm up. good point, I miss that too, but then see parc-ferme between quali and race, no need for a warm-up, you can't change the car anyway. The more time you give F1 teams to optimize their cars, the more boring the race will be. See Austin last year, where they had virtually no practice time in the dry. It was one of the best races last season. That's the thing with F1 and why they call it the pinnacle of motorsports. The guys that run there are the best of the best, drivers, engineers and so on. There are no surprises because they make virtually no mistakes.

Give WEC some time. The same will happen there. It started last season. The pure racing in LMP1 was except for some situations not all that great. The races where great because of traffic. But the last three races only looking at LMP1 where rather boring with Porsche killing the field. When they didn't make mistakes...


- and so, no rain setups (good for safety!!! sarcasm inside)Also no-one is forbidden to run rain setups, but you don't need them anymore. They run full downforce on almost all tracks and the rain tires have a larger diameter than slicks to avoid the risk of aquaplaning.


- tyres rules are ridicolous. they must use both compunds, they start with the compounds of qualifying. !!!!! this will change next season, they need to run 2 out of 3 possible compounds....lets see what that brings to the table.


- fuel rules are ridicolous, and how the limit of 100 l is calculated with the flow meter (i hope google give me the right english word)fuel rules are nearly the same in WEC. Don't know whats ridiculous about them.


- hybrid governed by rules: how can be more beatifull if everyonme develop his own system? (they miss the best part of wec)Engines have been regulated for a long time. Since 2005 they where completely fixed to a certain displacement and number of cylinders. Manufactures still have to make the best of it. And you don't have the drama equalizing diesel and gasoline for example. I remember Audi crying last year that their diesel was restricted to much...


- rules, over rules, over rules... and they don't understand that simple is better. tyres rules in 2016 will be amazing (sarcasm inside).yeah it's hard to follow, agree!


- no tests (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)that's not true, they just don't have unlimited tests anymore. They allowed in season (group) tests again.


- no development (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) so at the first race you know allThat's really rubbish. Teams develop from the first to the last race (if they want/need to). Renault didn't even use all the tokens they had to upgrade their engine. And the tokens will be a thing of the past soon.


- and so, no battles between best drivers.F1 is no spec series. Chances are, that only two drivers compete for the championship, and that's the teammates in the best car. Was always, will always be the case.


- and so, as Italian and Ferrari fan: alonso, button, mclaren and honda in those positions.Give Honda time, I expect them to be better this year, and let's hope Ferrari gets closer to Mercedes. Vettel could put some pressure on the Mercs and maybe force them into errors. It did already happen last year...

havocc
15-02-2016, 20:08
I know looks are subjective but imho last years Merc is one beauty. The nose regs didn't help with the look of most cars but Merc showed it can be done.

The cars are faster, on the straights. That they don't achieve the lap times they did in the mid-2000s is purely down to aero cuts. Going from 2013 to 2014 regs, the cars lost nearly 30% aero. That they come even remotely close to the lap times of the crazy aero days is mind blowing and only tells how good the new engines really are.

The best V10s had some 900bhp. That's a figure the modern hybrids aren't too far off, all while consuming 30% less fuel.

To be thourough when they nerfed aero they allowed slicks instead of these ones
http://www.finallap.net/pics/9941.jpg

Puffpirat
15-02-2016, 20:11
To be thourough when they nerfed aero they allowed slicks instead of these ones
http://www.finallap.net/pics/9941.jpg
Good point :) but have you seen how wide the front tires where compared to today?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-02-2016, 20:32
Engines have been regulated for a long time. Since 2005 they where completely fixed to a certain displacement and number of cylinders. Manufactures still have to make the best of it. And you don't have the drama equalizing diesel and gasoline for example. I remember Audi crying last year that their diesel was restricted to much...Engines have been regulated in some form since the beginning. (47-53: 4.5L atmospheric, 1.5L supercharged. 54-60: 2.5L atmospheric, 750 cc supercharged. 61-65: 1.5L atmospheric. 66-86: 3.0L atmospheric, 1.5L compressed. 87-88: 3.5L atmospheric, 1.5L compressed with max 4 bar boost in qualifying. 89-94: 3.5L atmospheric. 95-05: 3.0L atmospheric. 06-13: getting restrictive now. 2.4L 90 degree V8 atmospheric with a 98 mm max circular bore. 4 valves. Tons of restrictions to variable timings and geometries, RPM etc. to reduce development costs and improve reliability, KERS in 09. 2014-: Current 1.6L V6 turbo plus energy recovery systems.)

Puffpirat
15-02-2016, 20:34
Yep, hence i wrote since 2005 completely, including the number of cylinders ;)

Edit: I couldn't be arsed to reply to every point in full length....my post would have been a bit long ;) But it's always nice when someone adds more info :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-02-2016, 20:39
Yep, hence i wrote since 2005 completely, including the number of cylinders ;)

Edit: I couldn't be arsed to reply to every point in full length....my post would have been a bit long ;)I know, just wanted to expand a bit. =)

And what's wrong with long posts?! =)

Puffpirat
15-02-2016, 20:44
I know, just wanted to expand a bit. =)

And what's wrong with long posts?! =)
Haha yeah you seem to be a bit faster at writing than me ;) Just added that it's always good when more info gets added :)

Doge
15-02-2016, 22:56
The cars are faster, on the straights. That they don't achieve the lap times they did in the mid-2000s is purely down to aero cuts.

Thereīs a massive weight handicap involved too. Thatīs actually the biggest factor, not aero loses.

The minimum weight has gone up significantly, from 600 kg in 2004 to 702 kg this year. The cars are almost 100 kg heavier running on fumes, and in the race the weight difference is even higher as cars have more fuel onboard since refueling was banned.

DreamsKnight
16-02-2016, 01:43
What, you find the current rules complicated? ;) You have some valid points, but quite honestly some are rather wrong.
you try to explain F1 to me, but i know F1 very well. it is also true that my poor language skills makes me very essential. ;)
you focus a lot also over my words "last two years", but i write things that become worse in more time.


don't know if that really is a bad thing. Seeing how F1 wants a greener image (don't know if thats a good thing ;)) it makes sense to use the same tire for quali and start. And they do get an extra set of tires for quali, it's just not a "pure" qualifier.

it's not Formula Prius. i want to see cars with a glass of fuel in the tank and tires finished after one lap. exactly how it was a lot of years ago.
i like hybrid not caus it is green. but cause it is powerfull.


No-one is forbidden to use a quali setup, it just doesn't make sense because you have to use it the whole race, and thats where you get the points. I guess you mean no parc-ferme between quali and race, but that is long gone. And it's good, because it brings some action into the race. Maybe someone goes more into the direction of quali and others more to race, that will mix the field.
good point, I miss that too, but then see parc-ferme between quali and race, no need for a warm-up, you can't change the car anyway. The more time you give F1 teams to optimize their cars, the more boring the race will be. See Austin last year, where they had virtually no practice time in the dry. It was one of the best races last season. That's the thing with F1 and why they call it the pinnacle of motorsports. The guys that run there are the best of the best, drivers, engineers and so on. There are no surprises because they make virtually no mistakes.
Give WEC some time. The same will happen there. It started last season. The pure racing in LMP1 was except for some situations not all that great. The races where great because of traffic. But the last three races only looking at LMP1 where rather boring with Porsche killing the field. When they didn't make mistakes...


parc-ferme (yes i mean that ) is an abomination. i understand your point, but i think you don't see MotoGP, where with the "warm up (fp4)" everything change. what you write is exactly what happened now in F1 and no one has the last chance to change something. tyre rules and fuel rules don't help.


Also no-one is forbidden to run rain setups, but you don't need them anymore. They run full downforce on almost all tracks and the rain tires have a larger diameter than slicks to avoid the risk of aquaplaning. bianchi is dead. that was aquaplaning.


this will change next season, they need to run 2 out of 3 possible compounds....lets see what that brings to the table.
yes i know. and they do and idot thing more idiot.
have you noticed in 2015 the strategy was killed with only one pit stop in most cases? and also with two pit stops, they must do the same things. they have very little option to try something different. and the start with qualyfing tyre don't help. ( excatly how: parc ferme don't help. fuel economy don't help. tyres economy don't help. engine economy don't help.)

i'm trying to explain another rule, old as motorsport: you have these two compounds. do what you want and do your own strategy. too simple?



fuel rules are nearly the same in WEC. Don't know whats ridiculous about them.
it is ridicolous that rules are nearly the same in wec. THIS IS F1!!!!.

another simple rule: you have 100L for a race, do what you want.



that's not true, they just don't have unlimited tests anymore. They allowed in season (group) tests again.
if you call tests winter sessions with special winter tyres, we are speaking two different language. :)
i want (un)limited test during the season, decided by teams. in this way who must close the gap has a chance which can use in a strategic way.
if you like that mercedes is first, ferrari second etc from the first race to the last... well i don't like.


That's really rubbish. Teams develop from the first to the last race (if they want/need to). Renault didn't even use all the tokens they had to upgrade their engine. And the tokens will be a thing of the past soon.
no mate. they can do a limited develop with limited hours for aero and the all token system is rubbish. without that you think honda would not had the chance to make a whole new engine in a few races?
again, if you like that mercedes is first, ferrari second etc from the first race to the last... well i don't like.

again: motogp. the "open and factory" system is something amazing.


F1 is no spec series. Chances are, that only two drivers compete for the championship, and that's the teammates in the best car. Was always, will always be the case.
which F1 do you see? alonso vs vettel? raikkonen vs alonso vs hamilton? alonso vs schumacher? schumacher vs hakkinen? some few RECENT examples.


Give Honda time, I expect them to be better this year, and let's hope Ferrari gets closer to Mercedes. Vettel could put some pressure on the Mercs and maybe force them into errors. It did already happen last year...

i prefer give them: free develop, free tests, free tyres, free strategy. so don't need to "expect" something, you know it will happen.

Sasquatch
16-02-2016, 07:00
i made it to LMP1 and get this video about the best of the best in motorsports..come on guys..this is bull Formula 1 is the top of motorsports and in pcars formula a gets the closest

Look at it this way, the LeMans 24H is a much more celebrated event than Monaco GP.

Puffpirat
16-02-2016, 15:35
Thereīs a massive weight handicap involved too. Thatīs actually the biggest factor, not aero loses.

The minimum weight has gone up significantly, from 600 kg in 2004 to 702 kg this year. The cars are almost 100 kg heavier running on fumes, and in the race the weight difference is even higher as cars have more fuel onboard since refueling was banned.
Yeah that's right. I wasn't really precise with that statement. I was more aiming at the 2013 to 2014 time difference with that comment. Weight also increased with that regulation change but not as much as aero was cut. Compared to ultimate lap records from the early 2000s you're right of course. Think it still shows how good the hybrid drivetrains are when you see how close they get to those times.

But I'm one that doesn't like this "everything was better back then" (not meant at your post). The cars today are a lot safer with crash rules getting stricter each year and all the hybrid stuff that adds quite a lot of weight. One could also argue that tire tech moved on in the last 10 years even though most people are hating on pirelli for their tires.


you try to explain F1 to me, but i know F1 very well. it is also true that my poor language skills makes me very essential. ;)
you focus a lot also over my words "last two years", but i write things that become worse in more time.First of all sorry mate didn't want to come across as "teacher" ;) Just wanted to point out some things..


parc-ferme (yes i mean that ) is an abomination. i understand your point, but i think you don't see MotoGP, where with the "warm up (fp4)" everything change. what you write is exactly what happened now in F1 and no one has the last chance to change something. tyre rules and fuel rules don't help.That's really a moot point. I see yours, but imho, if you give the engineers one more hour to prepare for the actual conditions on race day, the race will be more boring. F1 is about perfectionism, stoping this, will increase the action during the races.


bianchi is dead. that was aquaplaning.Puuh that's quite a bold statement. I don't think a rain setup would have helped here. He lost the car because he was going to fast, overcorrected and went off, in a yellow flag zone, but I don't know if that's the right place to discuss this.


have you noticed in 2015 the strategy was killed with only one pit stop in most cases? and also with two pit stops, they must do the same things. they have very little option to try something different. and the start with qualyfing tyre don't help. ( excatly how: parc ferme don't help. fuel economy don't help. tyres economy don't help. engine economy don't help.)Yeah I wouldn't want to be in Pirellis place. They get all the hate, but they only build the tires Bernie wants. Last year they where to conservative but they know that. Next year could be interesting if the third tire choice for the weekend is softer than the usual tire choice for a given track. Then some teams could risk a bit and we could see more action and differing strategies. But the different compounds where invented to increase the action during the races because people where crying the races where boring before. Take what you want from that ;)


i'm trying to explain another rule, old as motorsport: you have these two compounds. do what you want and do your own strategy. too simple?Goes somewhat with the point above. Next year we could see this, not 100% as you want, because they will still need to run 2 out of the 3 compounds, but a more free choice at least.


it is ridicolous that rules are nearly the same in wec. THIS IS F1!!!!.
another simple rule: you have 100L for a race, do what you want.They had their reasons... They didn't want 2000hp quali monsters (costs) and while they could have limited the boost pressure, they choose the fuel flow. From an engineering standpoint I personally find that interesting. Other series are restricting the air to the engine. I quiet like F1s approach.


if you call tests winter sessions with special winter tyres, we are speaking two different language. :)
i want (un)limited test during the season, decided by teams. in this way who must close the gap has a chance which can use in a strategic way.
if you like that mercedes is first, ferrari second etc from the first race to the last... well i don't like.Because when they had unlimited testing Ferrari wasn't dominant for 5 years in a row... I think it's good they limit testing. Gives small teams something of a chance. And the simulations today are so good, a team like Ferrari or McLaren will catch up, it's just that they got their initial design "wrong". But that was and will always be the case and happens with every rule change. One team gets it right and the others need to catch up. At least they allowed, if limited, in season testing again.

You know there was a financial crisis in 2009 and F1 as we knew wouldn't exist anymore if they didn't do something about the costs. Yes in a perfect world everything would be unlimited but then you would have what...4 teams left over? One has to be realistic.


no mate. they can do a limited develop with limited hours for aero and the all token system is rubbish. without that you think honda would not had the chance to make a whole new engine in a few races?
again, if you like that mercedes is first, ferrari second etc from the first race to the last... well i don't like.Remember the MP4-18, the radical McLaren that, even though they had unlimited testing never managed to even do a single race? Yeah, Honda took an aggressive approach with their size zero concept and had to learn the hard way. I agree the token system is rubbish, but the thing is, Honda didn't know halfway through the season what exactly their problem was. They can build "unlimited amounts" of engines to get it right in the background, but they are only allowed to bring a limited amount of changes to the actual engine. Still they didn't fix their problem.


again: motogp. the "open and factory" system is something amazing.I beg to differ here, what is amazing about 8 bikes (don't nail me on that number;)) being better than the rest of the field? It's basically multi class racing. Don't really know what F1 could learn here.


which F1 do you see? alonso vs vettel? raikkonen vs alonso vs hamilton? alonso vs schumacher? schumacher vs hakkinen? some few RECENT examples.all of them, watching since 1994 and I'm not even 30 yet...


i prefer give them: free develop, free tests, free tyres, free strategy. so don't need to "expect" something, you know it will happen.I like some of your ideas but you have to be realistic. And that's not realistic.

The one thing I would like to see improved, and that goes for most aero cars, is that they need to be less prone to dirty air. So they can follow another car closer and we see better racing. I have some hopes for the 2017 or 2018 rules. Bigger tires will give more mechanical grip and if they can make the front wing less important to the cars overall aero that would be a step into the right direction :)

kevin kirk
16-02-2016, 15:58
Then F1 rolls out on the warm up lap with the new flip flop car with the new halo driver protection

Doge
16-02-2016, 17:45
Remember the MP4-18, the radical McLaren that, even though they had unlimited testing never managed to even do a single race? Yeah, Honda took an aggressive approach with their size zero concept and had to learn the hard way. I agree the token system is rubbish, but the thing is, Honda didn't know halfway through the season what exactly their problem was. They can build "unlimited amounts" of engines to get it right in the background, but they are only allowed to bring a limited amount of changes to the actual engine. Still they didn't fix their problem.

They do know energy storage and delivery is their main problem, but I agree not everything can be put down to that as the car was pretty slow over 1 lap too. The situation is probably easier to rectify than the 2003 case but the rules will make it take a long while.

In 2003 that car could not be saved under any circumstances. The packaging was too extreme and the car refused to work for long enough. The exhaust gasses melted suspension arms, the gearbox was too fragile, and it had hydraulic failures a-plenty. It even had trouble passing the crash tests.

The car would have probably kicked some ass, the 19 was based on it and even if it was slow (in the first half at least) to be a front-runner in 2004, it would have destroyed the 2003 field. They tried to leap a year ahead of their time and fell on their face. Good thing the 17-D was decent and they saved face, unlike this season.

Puffpirat
16-02-2016, 18:02
Yeah seems the main problem was the too small turbine that didn't allow them to make full use of the MGU-H, restricting the amount of power the could boost down the straight over the MGU-K.

I still wonder why they went with the turbo inside the V of the cylinder banks (besides being a smaller package length-wise). They surely knew how the Mercedes engine works and was built. Turbo inside the V only really makes sense when you can put the hot side on the inside of the V too, but IIRC regulations dictate the exhaust must exit on the outside of the bank.

Only one more week and we'll know a bit more :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 18:14
The one thing I would like to see improved, and that goes for most aero cars, is that they need to be less prone to dirty air.I agree: The best thing F1 could do is ban all aero and return to cigar bodies. =)

Puffpirat
16-02-2016, 18:20
I agree: The best thing F1 could do is ban all aero and return to cigar bodies. =)
Haha I remember this :)

I maybe wouldn't go this far ;) They have some pretty interesting concepts. I just hope the teams don't ruin it, like they mostly do...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 18:30
Aerodynamics ruined racing, that is the absolute and categorical truth. =)

Puffpirat
16-02-2016, 18:35
Not again Jussi :p hehe

Doge
16-02-2016, 18:44
Aerodynamics ruined racing, that is the absolute and categorical truth. =)

Gonna have to disagree there. Not many series in the World have more downforce than GP2 cars (F1, LMP1, Japanese SuperFormula, and thatīs probably it) and these guys have raced each other like lunatics over very different regulations across all these years. Itīs been as good as you can get, to the point where you wonder why canīt F1 be like that.

I do think itīs possible to have cars with decent downforce levels that still can race each other hard. No need to get drastic and completely ditch wings, a lot of people would stop watching when these cars got much slower than a lot of other series.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-02-2016, 18:46
There's a simple solution for that as well: Ban the wings, diffusers, underbody tunnels, splitters etc. in every other series as well. Mechanical grip back to the forefront, woo! =)

mixjah
17-02-2016, 03:41
WEC had some great racing last year
indeed :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b-wu3cVjeI

Jezza819
17-02-2016, 17:21
I watch every F1 race and I watch every WEC race. While I enjoy both I think I like the WEC races a little more. Longer races, strategy can change multiple times, just because a car has a problem doesn't necessarily mean that it's out of the race, etc.

Fernandito
17-02-2016, 20:22
LMP1 terrible?. Try the dallara lmp1 with the lowest tyre pressure they can resists without going red and then tell us it isn't fun at all. No assists. Springs stiffer on the front and softer on the rear. Sway bars the other way around. Then reduce wastegate pressure a bit and set accel lock to 60% or 70% or so. You'll see how fast you can go around with that thing

I have a preference for open wheel too in project cars specially formula b, but from there to say LMP1 is terrible.. Prototypes are a lot of fun as well

sbtm
17-02-2016, 21:20
LMP1 terrible?. Try the dallara lmp1 with the lowest tyre pressure they can resists without going red and then tell us it isn't fun at all. No assists. Springs stiffer on the front and softer on the rear. Sway bars the other way around. Then reduce wastegate pressure a bit and set accel lock to 60% or 70% or so. You'll see how fast you can go around with that thing

I have a preference for open wheel too in project cars specially formula b, but from there to say LMP1 is terrible.. Prototypes are a lot of fun as well

what? Dallara LMP1? Do we have that in the game?
I see only Aston Martin DBR 1-2, Audi R18 TDI, Audi R18 e-tron, Marek RP339h, RWD P30, Toyota TS040 Hybrid in the LMP1 class...