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e15f
18-02-2016, 09:54
Hello guys,

I've now put about 70 hours in to this fantastic game/sim, absolutely love it, best racing experience I've ever had :)

I have recently been driving in the bumper cam view and sometimes the bonnet cam, as opposed to the helmet cam which I had used since the start.

The bumper cam and bonnet cam, seem to give me personally much more control, ability to judge depth and hit apex's much better.

But you're situated in the middle of the car, not to the left or right etc, but also gaining a lot more visability.

I was playing with a friend last night and he was playing helmet cam. I wondered if myself playing bumper or bonnet was an unfair advantage and not really fair, I was putting in much better times than him.

Then I wondered if I'm doing this sim injustice playing in this view, should I really be playing helmet or cockpit to simulate actually driving? and do you think it is kind of cheating playing bumper / bonnet cam?

Flat_out
18-02-2016, 09:58
Play it however you want.How can it possibly be cheating?

Cheesenium
18-02-2016, 10:01
If you are comfortable with bumper cam, then, play with bumper cam. Even if it is cheating, how much faster can you be? There are probably some advantages over certain view point over the others. I doubt it will be significant.

I am playing pcars on a small screen, it make sense for me to use the hood cam because the cockpit cam FoV is too small and when I am driving a car, my FoV does not include the wheel of the car as I am concentrating on whats coming up on the road. Not half of the wheel and dashboard filling up half of my screen.


Enjoy the game, than constantly worrying about this is not balanced, that is not balanced.

danowat
18-02-2016, 10:09
No.

konnos
18-02-2016, 11:42
I wouldn't call it cheating, but it does have its advantages, especially in cars with lower visibility like lmps. If you don't have a big-ass monitor, it is very good to drive in bumper cam. Apart from the visibility, you get a better sense of speed which helps you drive more naturally. In the same sense, you can call triple 40'' monitor setup cheating, so no, it is not cheating. Only purists will give you crap about it, they do have their points about fair play, but like I said, you never know what monitor the other person is using, which would give him an equivalent advantage in speed sense and visibility.

Mascot
18-02-2016, 13:57
I'll continue using bonnet/hood cam until I migrate to VR, then I might try cockpit cam again, but it never feels right to me no matter what the PoV setting is. Bonnet cam makes a lot more sense to me as my racing seat and FFB wheel form a physical cockpit and my TV screen is the windshield.

lmp4 24
18-02-2016, 14:01
The only one your cheating is yourself by not getting the FULL SIM EXPERIENCE. If that's what you prefer sweet.

TwilightUA
18-02-2016, 14:05
Every camera view has it's advantages and disadvantages. If you want to force everyone to play with cockpit camera - just create your own lobby.

Barcode10
18-02-2016, 14:20
I use bonnet cam only. My rig is my cockpit and my 42" tv is my windshield. Once tried cockpit cam, it felt like double cockpit. And i feel i get the best out of what i got using bonnet cam

danowat
18-02-2016, 14:38
The only one your cheating is yourself by not getting the FULL SIM EXPERIENCE. If that's what you prefer sweet.

Cute.

blinkngone
18-02-2016, 14:40
My vision is impaired and bumper cam or bonnet is really my only option, I don't feel I am cheating, just making the best of a difficult situation.

havocc
18-02-2016, 14:50
When rift will become mainstream, bonnet/hood/bumber cam will cease to exist :D

Cote Dazur
18-02-2016, 15:27
Any view available to all is not cheating, no more than using a triple screen or a very big ( projected) screen.
For someone with a restricted view trying to drive due to a small single screen, using an elevated or less obstructed view is probably a good idea, at least to learn a new track, once you are familiar with the track, then using cockpit or helmet might add some immersion to the experience.
As far as one view being faster than an other, if one was, most would use it, fact is, after a while on a track we all hit a wall and no special view, special FOV, killer set up or expensive wheel will make us any faster.
IMO, the only one thing that really matter, having fun!

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 16:02
if anything bumper views are so low they might be slowing you down looking for the apex

Fractured Life
18-02-2016, 16:47
if anything bumper views are so low they might be slowing you down looking for the apex

I used to use the bumper view when that was one of the only options in games way back like the early F1 games and GT. I could never really get on with Interior views as I don't drive in RL (fml).
In F1 and here in pCars I would use it in career which would last a week as AI usually bore me, I'll try it online and I don't have the spatial awareness to be honest. Too much screen taken up black interior. I'm a danger to others if I'm not in Roof Cam. Its close to the sensation of that view in the F1 games that sim guys complain about, T-Cam? And it seems to work the same in the open Wheelers.

My personal favorite view in pCars if I'm driving alone or in Single Races Offline is definitely the back seat cam. It doesn't work for a lot of the vehicles, but for those where it lines up dead on center of the car, its amazing. Makes me want to upgrade to PC just to get that view on triple screens where I would have the ability to center it for those where its off-centre and have the Wing mirrors nicely placed on the side Monitors.

As to whether its cheating? No. Anyone can use it if its not blocked. Is look to Apex cheating compared to not doing so? Where do you draw the line...I've had some good races in host-locked in car views but its bloody nerve-wracking. Who honestly cares at the end of the day if the racing is good.

bradleyland
18-02-2016, 16:53
Cockpit vs bumper cam comes down to preference. Having learned to drive riding inside a car (as opposed to Max Maxing it on the hood :) ), I use internal points of reference for judging my line, so switching to bumper cam actually throws off my perspective. Having said that, I believe it really comes down to preference. When I was racing the TA Mustang for a while, I simply couldn't stand the cockpit view. It's remarkable to me that anyone was able to race in that car with all the visual obstruction! I found that I adjusted to bumper cam very quickly.

So I'd say yes, it can result in an advantage for some cars. I wouldn't call it "cheating" though, as that implies doing something dishonest.

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 17:08
I used to use the bumper view when that was one of the only options in games way back like the early F1 games and GT. I could never really get on with Interior views as I don't drive in RL (fml).
In F1 and here in pCars I would use it in career which would last a week as AI usually bore me, I'll try it online and I don't have the spatial awareness to be honest. Too much screen taken up black interior. I'm a danger to others if I'm not in Roof Cam. Its close to the sensation of that view in the F1 games that sim guys complain about, T-Cam? And it seems to work the same in the open Wheelers.

My personal favorite view in pCars if I'm driving alone or in Single Races Offline is definitely the back seat cam. It doesn't work for a lot of the vehicles, but for those where it lines up dead on center of the car, its amazing. Makes me want to upgrade to PC just to get that view on triple screens where I would have the ability to center it for those where its off-centre and have the Wing mirrors nicely placed on the side Monitors.

As to whether its cheating? No. Anyone can use it if its not blocked. Is look to Apex cheating compared to not doing so? Where do you draw the line...I've had some good races in host-locked in car views but its bloody nerve-wracking. Who honestly cares at the end of the day if the racing is good........the whole certain camera views is cheating or gives a advantage went out the window the moment FOV settings was put into the games. Might have been valid statement back in the day when cameras views were the camera views and that it. Since everything about camera view can be moved and zoomed in and out looking to apex and so on. Its not a valid argument anymore.

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 17:18
I used to use the bumper view when that was one of the only options in games way back like the early F1 games and GT. I could never really get on with Interior views as I don't drive in RL (fml).
In F1 and here in pCars I would use it in career which would last a week as AI usually bore me, I'll try it online and I don't have the spatial awareness to be honest. Too much screen taken up black interior. I'm a danger to others if I'm not in Roof Cam. Its close to the sensation of that view in the F1 games that sim guys complain about, T-Cam? And it seems to work the same in the open Wheelers.

My personal favorite view in pCars if I'm driving alone or in Single Races Offline is definitely the back seat cam. It doesn't work for a lot of the vehicles, but for those where it lines up dead on center of the car, its amazing. Makes me want to upgrade to PC just to get that view on triple screens where I would have the ability to center it for those where its off-centre and have the Wing mirrors nicely placed on the side Monitors.

As to whether its cheating? No. Anyone can use it if its not blocked. Is look to Apex cheating compared to not doing so? Where do you draw the line...I've had some good races in host-locked in car views but its bloody nerve-wracking. Who honestly cares at the end of the day if the racing is good...........on your t cam f1 point you made. That debate could be stopped in its tracks if the F1 games were made by someone that would put basic FOV settings options in the game.

RaceNut
18-02-2016, 17:42
If you are playing for fun, it doesn't matter what view you use - use whatever works for you.

If playing for competition with pre-defined rules that explicitly dictate the use of cockpit cam only and someone hacks their way to use a different view, then that may be considered "cheating".

More than anything else, I believe that it comes down to what you get used to. Personally, I play more for immersion and I want it more real so I use cockpit view 100% of the time. Games that don't offer cockpit-view wouldn't make my playlist at all but, that's just my preference. Fortunately, in many cases we have options to use our preferred view thanks to developers that understand the importance of accommodating most players.

lollygag
18-02-2016, 19:29
Is Bumper Cam Cheating?

Yes its cheating, anything other than exactly how "I" play the game is cheating. :rolleyes:

bradleyland
18-02-2016, 19:55
Yes its cheating, anything other than exactly how "I" play the game is cheating. :rolleyes:

I was thinking the same. If you guys aren't sitting around racing in your underwear, you're cheating! :D

Haiden
18-02-2016, 19:56
Hello guys,

I've now put about 70 hours in to this fantastic game/sim, absolutely love it, best racing experience I've ever had :)

I have recently been driving in the bumper cam view and sometimes the bonnet cam, as opposed to the helmet cam which I had used since the start.

The bumper cam and bonnet cam, seem to give me personally much more control, ability to judge depth and hit apex's much better.

But you're situated in the middle of the car, not to the left or right etc, but also gaining a lot more visability.

I was playing with a friend last night and he was playing helmet cam. I wondered if myself playing bumper or bonnet was an unfair advantage and not really fair, I was putting in much better times than him.

Then I wondered if I'm doing this sim injustice playing in this view, should I really be playing helmet or cockpit to simulate actually driving? and do you think it is kind of cheating playing bumper / bonnet cam?

You're fine. Play it how you want. It all balances out anyway. You may have a better unobstructed field of view in that cam mode, but everything comes at you faster, so you have less time to respond and hit your braking points.

Fight-Test
18-02-2016, 21:49
I would like to add something this although not 100% on topic.

I have heard this since I started racing but Michael Krumm put it the best and I will try and paraphrase.

There are two different types of drivers when it comes to braking. First, the Natural. They rely on senses and seat of the pants feeling. They brake and turn totally by intuition and its mostly subconscious and the driver might not even be aware of what he is always doing. When a natural approaches a corner while still in a straight line his eyes focus on the apex and has a inherent ability to brake and turn at the perfect time. The second type is the non natural. They focus their eyes on a brake marker or something that tells them its time to brake. They use trial and error to get closer to their max capabilities for the corner. Consistency is the key for this driver. The natural is gonna wow you and probably fail more than the non-natural as they are hanging it all out there. The non-natural is prob gonna be in the mid pack more but his consistency. and not taking any chances can also make him a winner any given day.

Now both drivers brake at same point but eyes are in completely different places. You can tell which you are by whether are not you can rattle off your brake markers without even doing a lap. A non natural will know the exact line and braking points, where to turn in and where to get on brakes. The natural just looks confused when trying to remember where he brakes.

He goes on to say that alot of open wheel guys and really fast guys are naturals eluding that they make the best F1 drivers because it has such short braking zones and this can be trouble for a natural. Take a gt car that takes longer to slow giving more margin for error while a f1 is just a short punch to the brakes and slows it down. This fits the natural perfectly. He also goes on to explain and teach why and how to use both and that all the best drivers must use lessons from both styles.

So back to subject at hand. I don't think any view is cheating and it was pretty well talked about early on on this forum that alot of the fast guys use bumper and/or hood in most racing games and I think the above might be a reason. The natural might very hindered in cockpit with no triple screens, he can't see his apexes as he approaches and its hard to judge. He will consistently brake early or late because he's not focused on a marker but feeling when to turn by using his eyes. You just cant do that in cockpit unless you use the look to apex feature which is amazing for just this. Im no natural so it just gives me headaches but its defiantly why its in the game. I'm the non-natural and I use markers and though I still like to look to apex, I do it much closer to the corner when already in view (cockpit cam).

I bring this up because it might be that in cockpit you are slower because you can't use all your tools. Same for a non natural who is using look to apex or another view to see but he actually needs to see less (this is more figurative as seeing less probably isn't better). This is probably why alot of guys are way faster in one view vs another. Everyone should evaluate themselves, their driving and style and maybe take a second look at how you approach the setup for you camera view/fov. If something doesn't seem or feel right, it might because its not optimal for you. Round peg, square hole. Its not just about what you like, its about what fits your abilities to give you the best chance to win.

Sorry for rambling, just had a afternoon coffee.

Keep Fighting

lollygag
18-02-2016, 21:59
Sorry for rambling, just had a afternoon coffee.



Oh, that reminds me..

lollygag
18-02-2016, 21:59
double post

Warren1571
18-02-2016, 21:59
Play it how you like and enjoy it that's the main thing.

I would suggest however, that yes bumper cam/bonnet can do give you an unfair advantage.

I always play in cockpit cam but I know for certain that my lap times are better on bumper cam.

Cockpit view in some ways is more realistic but also has limitations because you have a restricted field of vision due to the tv screen or monitor you are using as well as the fact your head and eyes are virtually static as well.

I would suggest if you wanted to keep things entirely fair when racing a friend online or whatever, that you both use the same cam position. (also cockpit cam can be enforced as part of the race setup if you want to go to that extreme and ensure a fair playing field).

e15f
18-02-2016, 22:32
Cheers guys for some great responses, interesting read :)

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 22:43
Might sound kind of silly. If any of you have ever spent time target shooting with guns, the cockpit view becomes like a sight picture in a scope. The steering wheel and the hands. The dash board lines,and the display, lining all that up with things rushing at me puts me into a zone that I cant get into with a outside driving view.

LukeC
18-02-2016, 23:04
Hello guys,

I've now put about 70 hours in to this fantastic game/sim, absolutely love it, best racing experience I've ever had :)

I have recently been driving in the bumper cam view and sometimes the bonnet cam, as opposed to the helmet cam which I had used since the start.

The bumper cam and bonnet cam, seem to give me personally much more control, ability to judge depth and hit apex's much better.

But you're situated in the middle of the car, not to the left or right etc, but also gaining a lot more visability.

I was playing with a friend last night and he was playing helmet cam. I wondered if myself playing bumper or bonnet was an unfair advantage and not really fair, I was putting in much better times than him.

Then I wondered if I'm doing this sim injustice playing in this view, should I really be playing helmet or cockpit to simulate actually driving? and do you think it is kind of cheating playing bumper / bonnet cam?

You should be playing in cockpit or helmet view to simulate actual driving. I suspect you prefer bonnet or bumper because that's how you've learned to play and you're used to it now. I, for example, cannot play in any view other than cockpit (it feels weird to me, as if the centre of gravity, or something, is wrong) because that's how I've learned to play from the beginning, way beck in the indycar by Papyrus days in the mid ninties.

Shinzah
19-02-2016, 04:01
You should be playing in cockpit or helmet view to simulate actual driving. I suspect you prefer bonnet or bumper because that's how you've learned to play and you're used to it now. I, for example, cannot play in any view other than cockpit (it feels weird to me, as if the centre of gravity, or something, is wrong) because that's how I've learned to play from the beginning, way beck in the indycar by Papyrus days in the mid ninties.

I'm going to make an argument that will make a lot of elitists very angry.

Sit in a car. Go sit inside of an actual car. Are you looking at the A-Pillars, wheels, half the entire cockpit, every switch, *and* your mirrors in the same view? No.

This is a professional Formula 1 simulator:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/06DS_MG_3424.jpg

You will notice something that probably 99% of sim racers do not have. And that is an accurate 1:1 scale elevated motion rig of all of the pertinent parts of the racecar itself. Why? Because unless you have a Rift or VR headset, you can not place these erroneus things in your periphery. Some games try to blur it. Some games remove textures altogether giving you a black cage. There's all kinds of trickery involved in this. But none of it is specifically conducive to a realistic experience.

Granted you can set up your display FOV correctly in cockpit view to maximize the immersion factor but it still does not change that the parts of the cockpit in the car you do see are (unless you have a massive screen) inside your primary field of vision. This is *not* realistic. You do not look at the cockpit while you're driving a car in reality, so to make the argument that it is more realistic to have an internal camera view is not based in objective data. Professional simulators use a very wide screen with a wide field of view located usually just behind the front wheels.

When F1 drivers are using simulators, using what is essentially a bumper camera, are they "cheating" or "unrealistic"? Certainly, I don't think these teams spend in the millions of dollars on unrealistic simulations of their racecars.

For these reasons I will generally use either Bumper or Hood, occasionally T-Cam in open topped prototypes and formula cars (because that allows me to actually SEE any damage foreward of the cockpit instead of having to rely solely on what FFB is telling me.) I don't think Hood/Bonnet is especially "realistic" either, as you don't usually stare at your sponsor decals and numberplate either.

My preferred camera is often Bumper. Though I will often use a higher camera in competition, if it so allows, if I'm not confident enough in my ability to place my car in an unsafe manner. Which many, many, many, cockpit drivers are also prone to doing.

Finally - Banning camera views for the sake of videogame competition is pretty ridiculous. You don't gain horsepower or racecraft from a camera angle. While it may be perceptually "Easier" to drive, many Cockpit drivers will always top leaderboards on virtue of practice and knowledge. A decidedly slower driver with a different camera is not going to magically go faster than sanic, I'm sorry.

LukeC
19-02-2016, 04:40
I'm going to make an argument that will make a lot of elitists very angry.

Sit in a car. Go sit inside of an actual car. Are you looking at the A-Pillars, wheels, half the entire cockpit, every switch, *and* your mirrors in the same view? No.

In my car I can see the A-pillar the steering wheel, the gauges, the wing mirror, the clock in the middle. I can't see any of those things in bumper or bonnet cam. In cockpit view the camera is positioned in game more or less where my eyes would be in real life. in bonnet cam it is hovering in the middle of the car just above the windscreen and in bumper cam its hovering in the middle of the car in front of the bumper -- even when driving a car where the steering wheel is on the side.

In f1 simulators the camera is still positioned where the drivers eyes would be and the driver can still see the steering wheel, the various knobs and levers in the cockpit etc. except they are real as opposed to made up of pixels.

VR is a good clue as to what view is more realistic. Try VR in cockpit view and then try it with bonnet or bumper and tell me which one feels more like driving a car in real life.

Shinzah
19-02-2016, 04:51
In my car I can see the A-pillar the steering wheel, the gauges, the wing mirror, the clock in the middle. I can't see any of those things in bumper or bonnet cam. In cockpit view the camera is positioned in game more or less where my eyes would be in real life. in bonnet cam it is hovering in the middle of the car just above the windscreen and in bumper cam its hovering in the middle of the car in front of the bumper -- even when driving a car where the steering wheel is on the side.

If you're looking at these things while driving, I straight up do not want to race you.



In f1 simulators the camera is still positioned where the drivers eyes would be and the driver can still see the steering wheel, the various knobs and levers in the cockpit etc. except they are real as opposed to made up of pixels.


U wot....

Yes. The drivers eyes are totally located on the floor behind the front wheels. Totally.



VR is a good clue as to what view is more realistic. Try VR in cockpit view and then try it with bonnet or bumper and tell me which one feels more like driving a car in real life.



http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/06DS_MG_3424.jpg

You will notice something that probably 99% of sim racers do not have. And that is an accurate 1:1 scale elevated motion rig of all of the pertinent parts of the racecar itself. Why? Because unless you have a Rift or VR headset, you can not place these erroneus things in your periphery. Some games try to blur it. Some games remove textures altogether giving you a black cage. There's all kinds of trickery involved in this. But none of it is specifically conducive to a realistic experience.

LukeC
19-02-2016, 05:01
If you're looking at these things while driving, I straight up do not want to race you.



U wot....

Yes. The drivers eyes are totally located on the floor behind the front wheels. Totally.

I most certainly am looking at those things? If I didn't how would I know if I'm speeding or if I'm about to run dry. Even if I'm not closely looking at those things, I am still aware of them in my peripheral vision and I can chose to consciously glance at my gauges or my clock or what have you, if I wish. How on earth do I do that in bumper or bonnet view.

And yes, in cockpit view the ingame camera is where your eyes would be; not on the floor, as you've said.

Shinzah
19-02-2016, 05:06
Except that actual F1 simulators in-sim camera is nowhere near where the drivers eyes would be. At all.

Since I tend to drive with minimal HUD elements, I'm usually using my phone or tablet as information displays. HUD elements also work perfectly fine in any view.

If you're however staring at your MOTEC or A-Pillar constantly while driving. Well. Good luck in your probably very short real life career.

Why on earth are you looking at your clock anyway? The time is: Time to look at the road you naffer.

LukeC
19-02-2016, 05:30
Except that actual F1 simulators in-sim camera is nowhere near where the drivers eyes would be. At all.

Since I tend to drive with minimal HUD elements, I'm usually using my phone or tablet as information displays. HUD elements also work perfectly fine in any view.

If you're however staring at your MOTEC or A-Pillar constantly while driving. Well. Good luck in your probably very short real life career.

Why on earth are you looking at your clock anyway? The time is: Time to look at the road you naffer.

I never said anything about staring at the motec or clock. I said in real life I have the option to look at the gauges the wing mirror, the clock, the a pillar etc. while I'm driving. This option is not available to me in bumper or bonnet view.

Also in my car, the A-pillar is quite far forward and obstructs a good portion of the view on the right, which makes it quite difficult to position the front right wheel precisely without having developed a familiarity with the car and without having developed a corresponding spatial awereness. Now, how on earth am I supposed to simulate that in bumper or bonnet cam?

kevin kirk
19-02-2016, 05:36
I'm going to make an argument that will make a lot of elitists very angry.

Sit in a car. Go sit inside of an actual car. Are you looking at the A-Pillars, wheels, half the entire cockpit, every switch, *and* your mirrors in the same view? No.

This is a professional Formula 1 simulator:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/06DS_MG_3424.jpg

You will notice something that probably 99%sim racers do not have. And that is an accurate 1:1 scale elevated motion rig of all of the pertinent parts of the racecar itself. Why? Because unless you have a Rift or VR headset, you can not place these erroneus things in your periphery. Some games try to blur it. Some games remove textures altogether giving you a black cage. There's all kinds of trickery involved in this. But none of it is specifically conducive to a realistic experience.

Granted you can set up your display FOV correctly in cockpit view to maximize the immersion factor but it still does not change that the parts of the cockpit in the car you do see are (unless you have a massive screen) inside your primary field of vision. This is *not* realistic. You do not look at the cockpit while you're driving a car in reality, so to make the argument that it is more realistic to have an internal camera view is not based in objective data. Professional simulators use a very wide screen with a wide field of view located usually just behind the front wheels.

When F1 drivers are using simulators, using what is essentially a bumper camera, are they "cheating" or "unrealistic"? Certainly, I don't think these teams spend in the millions of dollars on unrealistic simulations of their racecars.

For these reasons I will generally use either Bumper or Hood, occasionally T-Cam in open topped prototypes and formula cars (because that allows me to actually SEE any damage foreward of the cockpit instead of having to rely solely on what FFB is telling me.) I don't think Hood/Bonnet is especially "realistic" either, as you don't usually stare at your sponsor decals and numberplate either.

My preferred camera is often Bumper. Though I will often use a higher camera in competition, if it so allows, if I'm not confident enough in my ability to place my car in an unsafe manner. Which many, many, many, cockpit drivers are also prone to doing.

Finally - Banning camera views for the sake of videogame competition is pretty ridiculous. You don't gain horsepower or racecraft from a camera angle. While it may be perceptually "Easier" to drive, many Cockpit drivers will always top leaderboards on virtue of practice and knowledge. A decidedly slower driver with a different camera is not going to magically go faster than sanic, I'm sorry.

....seems like your over thinking cockpit view and making it to complicated. The realism aspect of cockpit view is the basic not seeing what you wouldn't see if you was in the car. In bumper or hood view you see a lot more things. For example in bumper and hood view you see the apex, the rumble strip and the egde of the track right up until your wheel is going to run over it. In cockpit view you see the apex coming from far away like you normaly would. Then you lose sight of it because parts of the car is blocking your view of it making you estimate were the rumble strip and edge of the track is it is. If a car is in front of you, you see exactly were it is right up until it touches your bumper. In cockpit view, you just see the guys rear window and you have to estimate how long your hood is and how long his trunk is and guess how much room you have before you touch him.

hkraft300
19-02-2016, 07:53
I like cockpit view. I feel it restricts my visibility as much as it should, while at the same time I can monitor the HUD. Because I'm used to this view, I can place the car where and how I like in a corner, limited by my skills of course.
Going off Shinzah's posts above: I find myself looking where I need to. Approaching a brake marker, I'm looking ahead on the road, at the entry my eyes are at the apex and at the exit my eyes are on the outside kerb placing my car. When a car is close behind, I'll glance at the mirror to see where he is. Side-by-side, my eyes are on the road to place my car and, using "peripheral" I'm spotting him to give him enough space (aggressive defending can lead to contact and conclusion of my race as much as theirs). Start of a long straight, I have a moment to look at the Motec.
That being said, I'm on a 42" screen with FOV set incorrectly and HUD rear view mirror when the car's mirror isn't in clear view.

The aforementioned restriction of visibility makes me claustrophobic when racing in a tight pack especially in LMP1 cars. This does make it more difficult and stressful, which is the experience I'm after. The open-top LMP2/900 cars are a welcome change from it, as are the open-wheel cars.

Most importantly: play it how you want, to have the experience that you want. Whether it be sweaty-palms, master race sim-junky or TT queen or racing at the back but loving life.

Neil Bateman
19-02-2016, 08:08
I did use bonnet cam quite a lot with a single monitor, using cockpit/helmet cam seemed strange, I am sitting in a seat with my wheel in front of me looking at a screen from a seat position looking at another steering wheel, that in conjunction with look left look right it felt like the whole cockpit was moving and was very off putting.
Then I saw a few videos from tonyr and what he was doing, it occurred to me that all I wanted to see on my screen was what is beyond the steering wheel of a car, the top of the dash and the windscreen, to me unless you have triple screen or vr then the default cockpit view is too unnatural , sitting in your racing seat its almost like your in the back seat of the car. Until I got my gt omega set up all this never really bothered me but now a lot of it makes sense and the next thing will be triple monitors.

You can only race and set things up with what you have, if your limited in any way then there is nothing you can do, just make it as enjoyable for yourself as you can and don't let anyone tell you your wrong.

kevin kirk
19-02-2016, 15:42
I think the back seat cam is fun on some of the cars.

bradleyland
19-02-2016, 17:36
I'm going to make an argument that will make a lot of elitists very angry.

Sit in a car. Go sit inside of an actual car. Are you looking at the A-Pillars, wheels, half the entire cockpit, every switch, *and* your mirrors in the same view? No.

Uh, yes I am. Personally, I've never driven a car from the hood, although I do think that would be fun :D Am I looking *directly* at the A-pillar, wheel, half the interior, every switch, and the mirrors all the time? No, that's cognitively and physiologically impossible. From a physiological perspective, our eyes have a cluster of nerves called the fovea. This is the only region that we have detailed vision. Cognitively, our minds process information from our central vision differently than it does the periphery. However, our peripheral vision still allows us to perceive all the other elements you mentioned. Their absence would be noticed by anyone with normal vision (physically and cognitively).


This is a professional Formula 1 simulator:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/06DS_MG_3424.jpg

You will notice something that probably 99% of sim racers do not have. And that is an accurate 1:1 scale elevated motion rig of all of the pertinent parts of the racecar itself. Why? Because unless you have a Rift or VR headset, you can not place these erroneus things in your periphery. Some games try to blur it. Some games remove textures altogether giving you a black cage. There's all kinds of trickery involved in this. But none of it is specifically conducive to a realistic experience.

I'm not sure what you're trying to claim here, but you've incorrectly conflated a couple of things:

1) A 1:1 scale replica is not required to place cockpit elements in your peripheral vision. If you have a large screen TV viewed closely enough, any element outside of your direct focus is technically in your peripheral vision.

2) The statement "But none of it is specifically conducive to a realistic experience" is confusing to me. It seems as if you're creating a false dichotomy: real/not real. No one is claiming that cockpit view displayed on a television is "real", but it is certainly closer to reality than bumper view.

There is nothing elitist about claims to realism. If you're inferring that someone who claims cockpit view is more realistic is also an elitist viewpoint, I would suggest that maybe you should reflect on why you feel that way. Cockpit view is more realistic, but that does not necessarily make it better. If you value realism, that is a preference. Anyone who tries to place their values above others is just being silly. There's no need to formulate contrived arguments to rebut them.


Granted you can set up your display FOV correctly in cockpit view to maximize the immersion factor but it still does not change that the parts of the cockpit in the car you do see are (unless you have a massive screen) inside your primary field of vision.

You keep pushing this discussion to the margins: real/not real. The question is not whether it's 100% real, but whether it is more or less realistic. Cockpit view is more realistic, because it is closer to reality. Plenty of people race on large flat panel displays that they sit close to. I have a 47" TV that sits just over 28" from my face when I'm racing. That's plenty enough to put cockpit elements outside my central field of vision, but not quite 100% realistic from a positioning perspective. That's OK, because it's closer to realistic than having a 100% unobstructed view of the pavement that should be near my feet.

But again, that doesn't make my preference better. It's just my preference.

It does make cockpit view more realistic than bumper view though.


This is *not* realistic. You do not look at the cockpit while you're driving a car in reality, so to make the argument that it is more realistic to have an internal camera view is not based in objective data. Professional simulators use a very wide screen with a wide field of view located usually just behind the front wheels.

You're getting off the rails here trying to prop up an argument that you don't need to make. I do look at the cockpit when I'm driving a real car. I glance at it all the time. Professional simulators are more realistic because they have a physical cockpit, thus obviating the need for a simulated cockpit. In a professional simulator, the driver's view of the screen is obscured by the physically constructed simulation cockpit around them. Unless you have constructed a physical cockpit, a simulated cockpit that obstructs your view is the next best thing.

Objective items are things that can be quantified. Subjective is how you experience them.

If the scale ranges from unrealistic to realistic, we can build a pretty solid objective set of elements that support the claim that cockpit view is more realistic than bumper view.

Cockpit view has:


A-pillars
Roofline
Dashboard
Instrument cluster
Steering wheel (which I turn off, btw)
Door panels
Center console


All of these things are present within your field of view in a real car. The drawback is that the perspective (FOV) is compressed in to a smaller area than is realistic. This detracts from realism, but realism is not a dichotomy.

Bumper view has:


A clear, unobstructed view of the entire FOV on screen


As I'll point out below, unless you have a physical cockpit that obstructs the view of your display setup, this will compress your FOV even more (especially with the default FOVs). If adjusted correctly, you could correct for perspective, but you'd still be missing elements that are visible in a real car. You can do the same adjustments from cockpit view and have a more realistic perspective.


When F1 drivers are using simulators, using what is essentially a bumper camera, are they "cheating" or "unrealistic"? Certainly, I don't think these teams spend in the millions of dollars on unrealistic simulations of their racecars.

F1 drivers using simulators have a physical cockpit that obscures their view of the screen. You simply cannot compare this to any rig/setup where the entire screen is unobscured.

There is more than one way to achieve realism. F1 simulators have a full cockpit built in hardware (see below). This means that they don't need to simulate the cockpit on screen. I'd agree that this is more realistic than simulating the cockpit on screen. However, you can't extrapolate this to mean that bumper view is more realistic in all settings. It all depends upon your rig. Some guys have gone out and built full car cockpits, which is awesome! For them, bumper view (along with FOV adjustments) is the perfect way to support more realism. However, their viewing screen should be so large that portions of it are obscured by their physical cockpit.

http://i.imgur.com/jl3NBuLl.jpg


For these reasons I will generally use either Bumper or Hood, occasionally T-Cam in open topped prototypes and formula cars (because that allows me to actually SEE any damage foreward of the cockpit instead of having to rely solely on what FFB is telling me.) I don't think Hood/Bonnet is especially "realistic" either, as you don't usually stare at your sponsor decals and numberplate either.

My preferred camera is often Bumper. Though I will often use a higher camera in competition, if it so allows, if I'm not confident enough in my ability to place my car in an unsafe manner. Which many, many, many, cockpit drivers are also prone to doing.

Finally - Banning camera views for the sake of videogame competition is pretty ridiculous. You don't gain horsepower or racecraft from a camera angle. While it may be perceptually "Easier" to drive, many Cockpit drivers will always top leaderboards on virtue of practice and knowledge. A decidedly slower driver with a different camera is not going to magically go faster than sanic, I'm sorry.

I agree that you should use whatever you like. I also agree that a chosen viewpoint doesn't necessarily represent an advantage/disadvantage. For example, I'm slower in bumper view because I get disoriented.

However, banning camera views in a league is 100% the prerogative of the league; just like it is a league's prerogative to restrict assists, car types, car selection, time acceleration, track selection, etc. It's just another parameter that can be adjusted.

I'll reiterate that the degree of realism is only one attribute of sim racing. There's no need to place it on some kind of alter. Likewise, no one needs to argue for the realism of bumper view in order for their preference to be valid. All you do is undermine your choice.

Shinzah
19-02-2016, 17:58
I'm not sure what you're trying to claim here, but you've incorrectly conflated a couple of things:

1) A 1:1 scale replica is not required to place cockpit elements in your peripheral vision. If you have a large screen TV viewed closely enough, any element outside of your direct focus is technically in your peripheral vision.

That is not how eyes work. A 2d display of a 3d image is not, and never will be the same as a physical object nor even a virtual one, as I've stated.



2) The statement "But none of it is specifically conducive to a realistic experience" is confusing to me. It seems as if you're creating a false dichotomy: real/not real. No one is claiming that cockpit view displayed on a television is "real", but it is certainly closer to reality than bumper view.

I disagree on the grounds that perception of realism is entirely subjective. Arguements can be made for the realism of many things. I do not preface my posts with "This is an opinion" because it should be quite obvious that any statement without purely objective data gathering is an opinion. I only detailed my perspective upon the choices I personally make.



There is nothing elitist about claims to realism. If you're inferring that someone who claims cockpit view is more realistic is also an elitist viewpoint, I would suggest that maybe you should reflect on why you feel that way. Cockpit view is more realistic, but that does not necessarily make it better. If you value realism, that is a preference. Anyone who tries to place their values above others is just being silly. There's no need to formulate contrived arguments to rebut them.


Realism is subjective, therefore arguments regarding "Realism" in computer gaming are going to be subjective as well. I didn't place my values above anyone elses, I only expressed my personal viewpoint. I don't *care* what others drive in, but I'm also well aware that the 5% tend to be very vocal about their choices. So I explained mine.



You keep pushing this discussion to the margins: real/not real. The question is not whether it's 100% real, but whether it is more or less realistic. Cockpit view is more realistic, because it is closer to reality. Plenty of people race on large flat panel displays that they sit close to. I have a 47" TV that sits just over 28" from my face when I'm racing. That's plenty enough to put cockpit elements outside my central field of vision, but not quite 100% realistic from a positioning perspective. That's OK, because it's closer to realistic than having a 100% unobstructed view of the pavement that should be near my feet.


A 2d display of a 3d image is grounds for exclusion from argument based around more or less "realistic" simulation.




But again, that doesn't make my preference better. It's just my preference.


That was my sole point! You could have stopped here! It's fine. Everyone should enjoy the game in their own way. It's a computer game. It's meant to be FUN. Not a platform for ideological thoughts.



It does make cockpit view more realistic than bumper view though.


Then you ruined it by making an absolution based on subjectivity.

So.

Not it's not. Now what? Nothing. Because that'll just go nowhere.




You're getting off the rails here trying to prop up an argument that you don't need to make. I do look at the cockpit when I'm driving a real car. I glance at it all the time. Professional simulators are more realistic because they have a physical cockpit, thus obviating the need for a simulated cockpit. In a professional simulator, the driver's view of the screen is obscured by the physically constructed simulation cockpit around them. Unless you have constructed a physical cockpit, a simulated cockpit that obstructs your view is the next best thing.


I disagree that it's best, better, or anything but a choice.



Objective items are things that can be quantified. Subjective is how you experience them.

If the scale ranges from unrealistic to realistic, we can build a pretty solid objective set of elements that support the claim that cockpit view is more realistic than bumper view.

Cockpit view has:


A-pillars
Roofline
Dashboard
Instrument cluster
Steering wheel (which I turn off, btw)
Door panels
Center console


All of these things are present within your field of view in a real car. The drawback is that the perspective (FOV) is compressed in to a smaller area than is realistic. This detracts from realism, but realism is not a dichotomy.


The FOV is not the only objective item up for debate. There's no real depth. FOV will not fix the problem of having no physical depth. The argument that it is MORE or BETTER is objectively false, it's a preference not an objective philosophy. "I think x is y because z" is fine. But I can also express that to me "a is b because c".



Bumper view has:


A clear, unobstructed view of the entire FOV on screen


As I'll point out below, unless you have a physical cockpit that obstructs the view of your display setup, this will compress your FOV even more (especially with the default FOVs). If adjusted correctly, you could correct for perspective, but you'd still be missing elements that are visible in a real car. You can do the same adjustments from cockpit view and have a more realistic perspective.


You've accused me three or four times for making a realism argument in my post, but you've just qualified all of your arguments on the same grounds you accused me of. That's poor form isn't it?



F1 drivers using simulators have a physical cockpit that obscures their view of the screen. You simply cannot compare this to any rig/setup where the entire screen is unobscured.


You can however make the objective claim that a physical cockpit is, and always will provide and objectively more tactile simulation experience. Which was the point.



There is more than one way to achieve realism. F1 simulators have a full cockpit built in hardware (see below). This means that they don't need to simulate the cockpit on screen. I'd agree that this is more realistic than simulating the cockpit on screen. However, you can't extrapolate this to mean that bumper view is more realistic in all settings. It all depends upon your rig. Some guys have gone out and built full car cockpits, which is awesome! For them, bumper view (along with FOV adjustments) is the perfect way to support more realism. However, their viewing screen should be so large that portions of it are obscured by their physical cockpit.

http://i.imgur.com/jl3NBuLl.jpg



I never said it was more realistic in all settings. I posed the view that as an option, it's entirely viable and no more or less realistic (to me).



I agree that you should use whatever you like. I also agree that a chosen viewpoint doesn't necessarily represent an advantage/disadvantage. For example, I'm slower in bumper view because I get disoriented.

However, banning camera views in a league is 100% the prerogative of the league; just like it is a league's prerogative to restrict assists, car types, car selection, time acceleration, track selection, etc. It's just another parameter that can be adjusted.


Whether or not it's the league or games prerogative wasn't the statement I was making. I find it personally ridiculous that people put so much personal investment into ideological videogame philosophies. It's a videogame. If the league wants to do this - that's fine. But it's certainly not my taste to have camera restrictions in videogames arbitrarily when they do and have not provided a real advantage to those who use them.



I'll reiterate that the degree of realism is only one attribute of sim racing. There's no need to place it on some kind of alter. Likewise, no one needs to argue for the realism of bumper view in order for their preference to be valid. All you do is undermine your choice.

Again, my posts were demonstrating my view. If I hadn't demonstrated my views on the subject (as others have in the thread also) I would be remiss from the discussion, wouldn't I? You've shared your thoughts. Am I not permitted to do the same?

Tbolt47
19-02-2016, 18:20
Hello guys,

I've now put about 70 hours in to this fantastic game/sim, absolutely love it, best racing experience I've ever had :)

I have recently been driving in the bumper cam view and sometimes the bonnet cam, as opposed to the helmet cam which I had used since the start.

The bumper cam and bonnet cam, seem to give me personally much more control, ability to judge depth and hit apex's much better.

But you're situated in the middle of the car, not to the left or right etc, but also gaining a lot more visability.

I was playing with a friend last night and he was playing helmet cam. I wondered if myself playing bumper or bonnet was an unfair advantage and not really fair, I was putting in much better times than him.

Then I wondered if I'm doing this sim injustice playing in this view, should I really be playing helmet or cockpit to simulate actually driving? and do you think it is kind of cheating playing bumper / bonnet cam?

If you are running a smaller, single monitor, then bonnet or bump cam can be more realistic than the cockpit, so it's not cheating. Some people think that the cockpit is more realistic, but you have to think as your monitor as the windscreen of the car - when I sit in a real car I don't see a dash and steering wheel out of the windscreen! Using the cockpit view can end up giving you a very small view of the outside world, nothing like a real car.

Having said that I prefer driving in the cockpit of most cars in game, just because I like the feel of it. The R18 is one car I use the bumper cam on as my monitor is too small to use a descent FoV to make it useable and the view is a lot more restricted that driving in the real, already restricted car.

It would be nice if we could save free cam view for different cars as the most realistic view for my setup is a modified bump cam view, like this, but again would be better with 3 monitors.

http://g2.img-dpreview.com/3710F95248EF4595ABDB1094E936A82F.jpg

TKMSte66
19-02-2016, 19:24
Cute. This made me laugh.;)


I usually struggle with helmet cams on most games. The visibility just isnt the same as in real life, nor is the ability to judge etc, or side to side vision. So I normally use the bonnet cam. It's not cheating. It's a game

TKMSte66
19-02-2016, 19:35
I would like to add something this although not 100% on topic.

I have heard this since I started racing but Michael Krumm put it the best and I will try and paraphrase.

There are two different types of drivers when it comes to braking. First, the Natural. They rely on senses and seat of the pants feeling. They brake and turn totally by intuition and its mostly subconscious and the driver might not even be aware of what he is always doing. When a natural approaches a corner while still in a straight line his eyes focus on the apex and has a inherent ability to brake and turn at the perfect time. The second type is the non natural. They focus their eyes on a brake marker or something that tells them its time to brake. They use trial and error to get closer to their max capabilities for the corner. Consistency is the key for this driver. The natural is gonna wow you and probably fail more than the non-natural as they are hanging it all out there. The non-natural is prob gonna be in the mid pack more but his consistency. and not taking any chances can also make him a winner any given day.

Now both drivers brake at same point but eyes are in completely different places. You can tell which you are by whether are not you can rattle off your brake markers without even doing a lap. A non natural will know the exact line and braking points, where to turn in and where to get on brakes. The natural just looks confused when trying to remember where he brakes.

He goes on to say that alot of open wheel guys and really fast guys are naturals eluding that they make the best F1 drivers because it has such short braking zones and this can be trouble for a natural. Take a gt car that takes longer to slow giving more margin for error while a f1 is just a short punch to the brakes and slows it down. This fits the natural perfectly. He also goes on to explain and teach why and how to use both and that all the best drivers must use lessons from both styles.

So back to subject at hand. I don't think any view is cheating and it was pretty well talked about early on on this forum that alot of the fast guys use bumper and/or hood in most racing games and I think the above might be a reason. The natural might very hindered in cockpit with no triple screens, he can't see his apexes as he approaches and its hard to judge. He will consistently brake early or late because he's not focused on a marker but feeling when to turn by using his eyes. You just cant do that in cockpit unless you use the look to apex feature which is amazing for just this. Im no natural so it just gives me headaches but its defiantly why its in the game. I'm the non-natural and I use markers and though I still like to look to apex, I do it much closer to the corner when already in view (cockpit cam).

I bring this up because it might be that in cockpit you are slower because you can't use all your tools. Same for a non natural who is using look to apex or another view to see but he actually needs to see less (this is more figurative as seeing less probably isn't better). This is probably why alot of guys are way faster in one view vs another. Everyone should evaluate themselves, their driving and style and maybe take a second look at how you approach the setup for you camera view/fov. If something doesn't seem or feel right, it might because its not optimal for you. Round peg, square hole. Its not just about what you like, its about what fits your abilities to give you the best chance to win.

Sorry for rambling, just had a afternoon coffee.

Keep Fighting


Love this. The amount of times I get asked "where are you braking?" at the karting track, for me to respond, " I dont know, I dont really look." Finally somebody has managed to put into words what I though.

btw i'm fairly quick but make quite alot of mistakes.
"

bradleyland
19-02-2016, 19:48
snip...

Again, my posts were demonstrating my view. If I hadn't demonstrated my views on the subject (as others have in the thread also) I would be remiss from the discussion, wouldn't I? You've shared your thoughts. Am I not permitted to do the same?

You can attempt to rationalize it all you want, but in the absence of a physical cockpit rig, cockpit view includes more elements of a real car than bumper cam does. That's not perception, subjective, or even an opinion. It is a simple statement of fact. I never said you can't share your thoughts, but you cannot change facts.

Sankyo
19-02-2016, 20:07
I was thinking the same. If you guys aren't sitting around racing in your underwear, you're cheating! :D
Ugh, thanks for that mental image... :eek:

kevin kirk
19-02-2016, 20:24
If you are running a smaller, single monitor, then bonnet or bump cam can be more realistic than the cockpit, so it's not cheating. Some people think that the cockpit is more realistic, but you have to think as your monitor as the windscreen of the car - when I sit in a real car I don't see a dash and steering wheel out of the windscreen! Using the cockpit view can end up giving you a very small view of the outside world, nothing like a real car.

Having said that I prefer driving in the cockpit of most cars in game, just because I like the feel of it. The R18 is one car I use the bumper cam on as my monitor is too small to use a descent FoV to make it useable and the view is a lot more restricted that driving in the real, already restricted car.

It would be nice if we could save free cam view for different cars as the most realistic view for my setup is a modified bump cam view, like this, but again would be better with 3 monitors.

http://g2.img-dpreview.com/3710F95248EF4595ABDB1094E936A82F.jpg..... Not saying your view is wrong or anything like that. With a view like that being so high up you see things that you wouldn't see if you were setting low in the car in the seat. You wouldn't be looking down at the top of your hood. You certainly wouldn't have a clear view of were the road is right up until your wheel is starting to hit it. All the things the see clearly around your car you would be guessing were they are if you were in the seat.

bradleyland
19-02-2016, 20:39
..... Not saying your view is wrong or anything like that. With a view like that being so high up you see things that you wouldn't see if you were setting low in the car in the seat. You wouldn't be looking down at the top of your hood. You certainly wouldn't have a clear view of were the road is right up until your wheel is starting to hit it. All the things the see clearly around your car you would be guessing were they are if you were in the seat.

You know, LMP cars are the one class where I would say that bumper cam represents a clear advantage, rather than just a matter of preference. Outward visibility in the closed-cockpit LMP cars is atrocious. Doesn't matter if you have a 110" wrap-around projection screen; the view out of the real car is just as bad. Those huge front fenders create a tunnel vision aspect that forces the driver to adjust in ways that are flat out difficult. Switching to bumper view, in this case, removes what would clearly be considered a handicap (severely limited visibility). If I were running an LMP league, I would consider bumper view an advantage compared to cockpit view. The thing to remember is that bumper view is available to all drivers, so I still wouldn't call it cheating.

kevin kirk
19-02-2016, 21:11
You know, LMP cars are the one class where I would say that bumper cam represents a clear advantage, rather than just a matter of preference. Outward visibility in the closed-cockpit LMP cars is atrocious. Doesn't matter if you have a 110" wrap-around projection screen; the view out of the real car is just as bad. Those huge front fenders create a tunnel vision aspect that forces the driver to adjust in ways that are flat out difficult. Switching to bumper view, in this case, removes what would clearly be considered a handicap (severely limited visibility). If I were running an LMP league, I would consider bumper view an advantage compared to cockpit view. The thing to remember is that bumper view is available to all drivers, so I still wouldn't call it cheating.
.....I kind of like the feeling of having to estimate were things are like rumble strips or how close you are to the edge of the track and how close you got before you touch the car in front because you can only see is back windshield. I expecially like the feeling of the dash and apillers not letting me see the car that's beside me. Makes me drive like I would really drive in a race.

Tbolt47
19-02-2016, 22:00
..... Not saying your view is wrong or anything like that. With a view like that being so high up you see things that you wouldn't see if you were setting low in the car in the seat. You wouldn't be looking down at the top of your hood. You certainly wouldn't have a clear view of were the road is right up until your wheel is starting to hit it. All the things the see clearly around your car you would be guessing were they are if you were in the seat.

It's not perfect, I was just playing around, like I said I normal use the cockpit view (and certainly for the RXC). With this view I probably should have tilted the camera up more and maybe dropped it a little, put it's always difficult trying to get the right perspective on a 2D screen and since you can save it I didn't mess around with it too much.

Shinzah
19-02-2016, 22:07
You can attempt to rationalize it all you want, but in the absence of a physical cockpit rig, cockpit view includes more elements of a real car than bumper cam does. That's not perception, subjective, or even an opinion. It is a simple statement of fact. I never said you can't share your thoughts, but you cannot change facts.

I'm going to make this clear to you.

A fact is an inarguable, objective, piece of data.

Fact - A physical cockpit is going to provide a more tactile experience than a non-physical cockpit and most drivers do not have access to them or VR headsets.
Not a fact - Your opinion that a virtual cockpit is better, superior, or anything but an opinion with no objective data other than that "Because bradley said so on the internet.""

It is perception. My spacial awareness in bumpercam is fine. My ability to check my car's data, is fine. Therefore, I do not find it any less or more "realistic" than any other view, save for maybe Chase view. Bumper is not superior. Cockpit is not superior. A camera doesn't make any users experience superior, and continuing to defend it is doing what you accuse me of doing rather than admitting a personal choice is a frikken personal choice and stopping the action of defending that personal choice when there is literally nothing to defend.

The Fact is, just because you have an opinion doesn't make it an immediately objective standpoint. Infact, it probably makes it more of a risk of being subjective based on how belief systems work.

It's foolish to continue, it'll only lead to circular arguments about how you feel having more virtual elements represented are either somehow better or somehow superior. I'm sorry. It's not.

Tbolt47
19-02-2016, 22:11
You know, LMP cars are the one class where I would say that bumper cam represents a clear advantage, rather than just a matter of preference. Outward visibility in the closed-cockpit LMP cars is atrocious. Doesn't matter if you have a 110" wrap-around projection screen; the view out of the real car is just as bad. Those huge front fenders create a tunnel vision aspect that forces the driver to adjust in ways that are flat out difficult. Switching to bumper view, in this case, removes what would clearly be considered a handicap (severely limited visibility). If I were running an LMP league, I would consider bumper view an advantage compared to cockpit view. The thing to remember is that bumper view is available to all drivers, so I still wouldn't call it cheating.

The visibility isn't great but not as bad as we have in game. Some LMP cars I drive from the cockpit but the R18 right hand A post is so big that it blocks so much of the track, if you have a big high res screen you can move you seat back and increase the FoV to give you some view out the right hand window, like you would in the real thing, which helps a lot, but for me that makes the view out the front too small, with most of the screen filled by the inside of the car - give a real R18 driver that view - about 8x3 inches, 30 inches in front of them (and comparatively low res) and see how they like it :)

If you are going to lock cockpit view in cars like the R18, that gives more of an advantage to people with big, hi res screens.

kevin kirk
19-02-2016, 22:20
It's not perfect, I was just playing around, like I said I normal use the cockpit view. With this view I probably should have tilted the camera up more, put it's always difficult trying to get the right perspective on a 2D screen.....I would love free camera to be able to experiment like that. I would like to be able to just lay the view right on the dash board and still have the sense of speed. Like yours but much lower were my eyes would be level with the hood and dashboard.Allmost like the back seat cams the lmps1 have.

Tbolt47
19-02-2016, 22:24
....I would love free camera to be able to experiment like that. I would like to be able to just lay the view right on the dash board and still have the sense of speed. Like yours but much lower were my eyes would be level with the hood and dashboard.Allmost like the back seat cams the lmps1 have.

Lets hope in PC2 they let us play more and save these view for each car.

Stevesixty7
19-02-2016, 22:32
No camera view is cheating, it's personal preference. What I don't like is people telling me what I should be doing. Do what you do, I'll do what I do. I use bonnet cam and it works best for me with what I have.

DECATUR PLAYA
19-02-2016, 22:42
The view that a person uses does not change the cars physics period. Different views same physics period.

The ultimate driver journey.

Whatever view allows you to better drive the car is the view you should use.

Stevesixty7
19-02-2016, 22:45
The view that a person uses does not change the cars physics period. Different views same physics period.

The ultimate driver journey.

Whatever view allows you to better drive the car is the view you should use.

That's pretty much it mate, end of thread ;)

bradleyland
19-02-2016, 23:10
.....I kind of like the feeling of having to estimate were things are like rumble strips or how close you are to the edge of the track and how close you got before you touch the car in front because you can only see is back windshield. I expecially like the feeling of the dash and apillers not letting me see the car that's beside me. Makes me drive like I would really drive in a race.

Yeah, I enjoy it as well, but I think it represents a challenge. That's why I'd say, preferences aside, bumper view represents a clear advantage in that case.

bradleyland
19-02-2016, 23:22
I'm going to make this clear to you.

A fact is an inarguable, objective, piece of data.

The distinction between objective/subjective is clear to me.


Fact - A physical cockpit is going to provide a more tactile experience than a non-physical cockpit and most drivers do not have access to them or VR headsets.
Not a fact - Your opinion that a virtual cockpit is better, superior, or anything but an opinion with no objective data other than that "Because bradley said so on the internet.""

I never said any of that. I explicitly never said that a virtual cockpit is better than a physical cockpit or VR.


It is perception. My spacial awareness in bumpercam is fine. My ability to check my car's data, is fine. Therefore, I do not find it any less or more "realistic" than any other view, save for maybe Chase view. Bumper is not superior. Cockpit is not superior. A camera doesn't make any users experience superior, and continuing to defend it is doing what you accuse me of doing rather than admitting a personal choice is a frikken personal choice and stopping the action of defending that personal choice when there is literally nothing to defend.

I am not making any claims to superiority. The only thing I can figure at this point is that I haven't been clear about what I mean by what is more/less realistic.

Realism scale:
LESS <bumper view: no physical cockpit>----<cockpit view: no physical cockpit>----------------<bumper view: physical cockpit> MORE

Superiority scale:
LESS <you decide because it's your preference :) > MORE


The Fact is, just because you have an opinion doesn't make it an immediately objective standpoint. Infact, it probably makes it more of a risk of being subjective based on how belief systems work.

It's foolish to continue, it'll only lead to circular arguments about how you feel having more virtual elements represented are either somehow better or somehow superior. I'm sorry. It's not.

Few things actually bother me about disagreements, but having someone repeatedly misrepresent my views like this makes me wonder if it's intentional.

I never said it was superior.

What I did say is pretty simple. In the absence of a physical cockpit, the virtual cockpit has more elements that are present in a real car. Therefore, it is objectively more real than a blank screen. If I have failed to communicate this clearly so far, I really am sorry. I try hard to write clearly, but I'm not always successful. I don't mean to frustrate you :)

Stevesixty7
19-02-2016, 23:44
Yeah, I enjoy it as well, but I think it represents a challenge. That's why I'd say, preferences aside, bumper view represents a clear advantage in that case.

This is getting tedious now. People use a view for a reason i.e, it suits them. Racing in a league is a big challenge for most people. Unless the league states "cockpit view only" do you have a problem racing with others who don't conform to that? It isn't an advantage, if you think it is, only race with like minded people. This debate only pisses people off to be honest.

I have used cockpit, helmet etc on this game, I didn't enjoy it as much as bonnet (I've been gaming for a long time, Commodore 64, right through to today) This particular game, with what I have is for me, a bonnet cam, sorry, just my preference.

kevin kirk
19-02-2016, 23:45
you guys are wimps. I play in cockpit view with the tv setting upside down facing backward in my chair while I set facing the other way on the tv stand

LukeC
19-02-2016, 23:58
This is getting tedious now. People use a view for a reason i.e, it suits them.

The discussion isn't about which view suits you. The discussion is about which view is more realistic. This is something that can be arrived at objectively as bradleyland has demonstrated a number of times in this thread. What is tedious is this very recent idea that everybody's opinion is as valid as everybody else's opinion. It is not. If it were, there would be no science and medicine would a shambles.

If you prefer to play in bumper, go ahead. There is no sim view Nazi who says you can't, and you are not obliged to take part in leagues that force cockpit view.

But, do not try to misrepresent reality to make an argument that bumper or bonnet is more realistic than cockpit view. It is not, unless you are using an actual cockpit, which is correctly positioned to give you the correct peroective and fov.

Stevesixty7
20-02-2016, 00:00
you guys are wimps. I play in cockpit view with the tv setting upside down facing backward in my chair while I set facing the other way on the tv stand

I'll race you tomorrow Kevin, only if you are in you are in your pants, and I'm in a full racing suit. :)

kevin kirk
20-02-2016, 00:04
I'll race you tomorrow Kevin, only if you are in you are in your pants, and I'm in a full racing suit. :)....would you believe I changed the word amature to wimps because I thought as serious as these guys are they might take someone calling them a amature to personal.

Stevesixty7
20-02-2016, 00:06
The discussion isn't about which view suits you. The discussion is about which view is more realistic. This is something that can be arrived at objectively as bradleyland has demonstrated a number of times in this thread. What is tedious is this very recent idea that everybody's opinion is as valid as everybody else's opinion. It is not. If it were, there would be no science and medicine would a shambles.

If you prefer to play in bumper, go ahead. There is no sim view Nazi who says you can't, and you are not obliged to take part in leagues that force cockpit view.

But, do not try to misrepresent reality to make an argument that bumper or bonnet is more realistic than cockpit view. It is not, unless you are using an actual cockpit, which is correctly positioned to give you the correct peroective and fov.

Well good luck with that. Way back with Toca race games, bonnet cam was the one. Todays cockpit cams look nice, they just don't work.

Sum Dixon-Ear
20-02-2016, 00:10
The discussion isn't about which view suits you. The discussion is about which view is more realistic. This is something that can be arrived at objectively as bradleyland has demonstrated a number of times in this thread. What is tedious is this very recent idea that everybody's opinion is as valid as everybody else's opinion. It is not. If it were, there would be no science and medicine would a shambles.

If you prefer to play in bumper, go ahead. There is no sim view Nazi who says you can't, and you are not obliged to take part in leagues that force cockpit view.

But, do not try to misrepresent reality to make an argument that bumper or bonnet is more realistic than cockpit view. It is not, unless you are using an actual cockpit, which is correctly positioned to give you the correct peroective and fov.

Here's a wee something to help you get all that nasty sand out of your vagina -

227881 ;)

Shinzah
20-02-2016, 00:15
The discussion isn't about which view suits you. The discussion is about which view is more realistic. This is something that can be arrived at objectively as bradleyland has demonstrated a number of times in this thread. What is tedious is this very recent idea that everybody's opinion is as valid as everybody else's opinion. It is not. If it were, there would be no science and medicine would a shambles.


Good goodliness.

Comparing scientific endeavours to a videogame is pretty, wow.

It's quite a leap really. Opinions are as valid as other opinions. Let me explain -

If someone holds a view and someone can dispute that view without going into the realm of complete improbability both opinions are valid.

Nobody in (serious) medicine is going to do a study that provides accurate and repeatable data and have that study rebuked. They can't - because the data will always be proven. However if someone else does a study and finds conflicting data, than both studies are just as valid as each other.

How people view personal choices is no more or less valid than other peoples views. It's dangerous and wrong to make the assumption that something is right just because you feel it is right. It's okay to hold conflicting viewpoints. It is ENCOURAGED in science and medicine. It's precisely why it isn't a shambles. If science and medicine didn't continously have crosschecking of data, we'd still think certain roots in socks can cure the flu.

You can't misrepresent reality, but you can represent personal choices and so long as a personal choice can have a conflicting viewpoint it is not concrete.

Honestly, the recent opinions that subjective viewpoints can be considered concrete is doing a great amount of damage to society. Shouting down others over a choice in personal perceptions is, to me anyway, quite bankrupt.

I respect the viewpoint of others, but that respect is only as large as the imperfection of choice. Nobody should have to concede to someone else because they demand an opinion is superior.

Stevesixty7
20-02-2016, 00:17
Here's a wee something to help you get all that nasty sand out of your vagina -

227881 ;)

Bloody hell. :)

LukeC
20-02-2016, 00:25
Four or five posts in response to mine and not a single intelligent, convincing argument is made. All I see is shovels and something about sand in my vagina. All it proves is that my statement about the recent belief that everybody's opinion is equally valid, and if it is challenged the individual lashes out as if his very being is being attacked. Grow up people.

LukeC
20-02-2016, 00:29
Good goodliness.

Comparing scientific endeavours to a videogame is pretty, wow.

It's quite a leap really. Opinions are as valid as other opinions. Let me explain -

If someone holds a view and someone can dispute that view without going into the realm of complete improbability both opinions are valid.

Nobody in (serious) medicine is going to do a study that provides accurate and repeatable data and have that study rebuked. They can't - because the data will always be proven. However if someone else does a study and finds conflicting data, than both studies are just as valid as each other.

How people view personal choices is no more or less valid than other peoples views. It's dangerous and wrong to make the assumption that something is right just because you feel it is right. It's okay to hold conflicting viewpoints. It is ENCOURAGED in science and medicine. It's precisely why it isn't a shambles. If science and medicine didn't continously have crosschecking of data, we'd still think certain roots in socks can cure the flu.

You can't misrepresent reality, but you can represent personal choices and so long as a personal choice can have a conflicting viewpoint it is not concrete.

Honestly, the recent opinions that subjective viewpoints can be considered concrete is doing a great amount of damage to society. Shouting down others over a choice in personal perceptions is, to me anyway, quite bankrupt.

I respect the viewpoint of others, but that respect is only as large as the imperfection of choice. Nobody should have to concede to someone else because they demand an opinion is superior.

I think you must be a plant Shinzah. For the millionth time, your personal choice is none of my business. My aim is to objectively establish which view is the more realistic one, and that is something that can be objectively established. Bradleyland has demonstrated how, but you just refuse to listen, while bringing up the red herring of personal choice.

Shinzah
20-02-2016, 00:38
Four or five posts in response to mine and not a single intelligent, convincing argument is made. All I see is shovels and something about sand in my vagina. All it proves is that my statement about the recent belief that everybody's opinion is equally valid, and if it is challenged the individual lashes out as if his very being is being attacked. Grow up people.

Sigh.

Learn what objectivity is before looking like an imbecile. Your views can and are challenged. They are not objective. None of these opinions are objective.

If you're going to resort to character assassination, I'm just going to start reporting the thread at this point. I'm honestly surprised it took this long. Nobody needs to convince anyone of anything here. We can continue to share viewpoints, or you can preach from a soapbox about how great your ideas are. I'm not convinced of your viewpoint and I'm increasingly nonplussed at your repeated attempts to justify your supremacy.

Tbolt47
20-02-2016, 00:41
The discussion isn't about which view suits you. The discussion is about which view is more realistic. This is something that can be arrived at objectively as bradleyland has demonstrated a number of times in this thread. What is tedious is this very recent idea that everybody's opinion is as valid as everybody else's opinion. It is not. If it were, there would be no science and medicine would a shambles.

If you prefer to play in bumper, go ahead. There is no sim view Nazi who says you can't, and you are not obliged to take part in leagues that force cockpit view.

But, do not try to misrepresent reality to make an argument that bumper or bonnet is more realistic than cockpit view. It is not, unless you are using an actual cockpit, which is correctly positioned to give you the correct peroective and fov.

Cockpit view is far from realistic unless you happen to have a 24 inch monitor about five inches from your eyes ;) But there does seem to be some snobbishness about the cockpit view because some people think it's realistic, but the only way it's close to realistic is with a VR headset.

kevin kirk
20-02-2016, 00:45
Cockpit view is far from realistic unless you happen to have a 24 inch monitor about five inches from your eyes ;) But there does seem to be some snobbishness about the cockpit view because some people think it's realistic, but the only way it's close to realistic is with a VR headset.......I think one of those headset things would just be to much for me to handle. I'm already clinching when I get sideways playing it on a tv.

LukeC
20-02-2016, 00:49
Sigh.

Learn what objectivity is before looking like an imbecile. Your views can and are challenged. They are not objective. None of these opinions are objective.

If you're going to resort to character assassination, I'm just going to start reporting the thread at this point. I'm honestly surprised it took this long. Nobody needs to convince anyone of anything here. We can continue to share viewpoints, or you can preach from a soapbox about how great your ideas are. I'm not convinced of your viewpoint and I'm increasingly nonplussed at your repeated attempts to justify your supremacy.

Wrong on all counts. If you're going to be driving an lmp1 car at this year's LeMans race, one of the biggest challenges you're going to be facing is the limited visibility due to the design of the cockpit and canopy, especially at night. If you want to get some idea of what that's going to be like and to develop the required spatial awerness to enable you to position the car accurately without being able to see very much you would have to use the cockpit view, or build a physical replica of the cockpit. No racing driver would prep himself for these eventualities by playing in bumper or bonnet view with a perfect visibility and a vantage point that allows him to see small pebbles on the kerbs as he approaches.

As for reporting on this thread, what is there to report? People telling me to get sand out if my vagina? In contrast I have been as civil here as I've always been elsewhere in this forum. Sometimes in life you have to concede that maybe somebody else is right. You can't win them all Shinzah.

Shinzah
20-02-2016, 00:53
Wrong on all counts. If you're going to be driving an lmp1 car at this year's LeMans race, one of the biggest challenges you're going to be facing is the limited visibility due to the design of the cockpit abd canopy, especially at night. If you want to get some idea of what that's going to be like and to develop the required spatial awerness to enable you to position the car accurately without being able to see very much you would have to use the cockpit view, or build a physical replica of the cockpit. No racing driver would prep himsel for these eventuality by playing in bumper or bonnet view with a perfect visibility and a vantage point that allows him to see small pebbles on the kerbs as he approaches.

http://cdn.meme.am/images/5165573.jpg

I'm sorry. I was just checking the LM24 invitee list, and I didn't see LMP1 driver Luke "From the internet" C. My apologies.

Sum Dixon-Ear
20-02-2016, 00:57
Wrong on all counts. If you're going to be driving an lmp1 car at this year's LeMans race, one of the biggest challenges you're going to be facing is the limited visibility due to the design of the cockpit and canopy, especially at night. If you want to get some idea of what that's going to be like and to develop the required spatial awerness to enable you to position the car accurately without being able to see very much you would have to use the cockpit view, or build a physical replica of the cockpit. No racing driver would prep himself for these eventualities by playing in bumper or bonnet view with a perfect visibility and a vantage point that allows him to see small pebbles on the kerbs as he approaches.

As for reporting on this thread, what is there to report. People telling me to get sand out if my vagina? In contrast I have been as civil here as I've always been elsewhere in this forum. Sometimes in life you have to concede that maybe somebody else is right. You can't win them all Shinzah.

I do unreservedly apologise about my cheeky comment regarding a plastic spade and a private orifice... I fear you may actually require one these -

227885

LukeC
20-02-2016, 00:58
http://cdn.meme.am/images/5165573.jpg

I'm sorry. I was just checking the LM24 invitee list, and I didn't see LMP1 driver Luke "From the internet" C. My apologies.

Once again resorting to red herrings. You know who else resorts to red herrings? Creationists.

RacingTopsy
20-02-2016, 01:00
I think that's enough now.