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Madmazz116
18-02-2016, 16:34
Sorry to open new thread on this , I cant use the other two as they are closed and not allowed to "chat" on the sticky , but i just wanted to ask if there is any update at all?...Have the devs been able to reproduce the problems? etc..

Im probably premature in asking , so please dont shoot me :)

Thanks

Androphonomania
18-02-2016, 17:24
The devs are on it to rule out that it could be pcars and not psn.

As far as reports and my experienced problems are. Pcars seem to be fine. As i raced under 8.0 conditions fine on the first sunday after release for 3 hours and with a full lobby.

As you ask for information. There is none. If you experience problems report them in the thread for connection issues reports.
The devs are looking into it.

Sankyo
18-02-2016, 17:40
The devs are investigating the game and have inquired with Sony. When there is news, it will be shared. That's all that can be said right now.

bradleyland
18-02-2016, 20:45
Sorry to open new thread on this , I cant use the other two as they are closed and not allowed to "chat" on the sticky , but i just wanted to ask if there is any update at all?...Have the devs been able to reproduce the problems? etc..

Im probably premature in asking , so please dont shoot me :)

Thanks

You can contribute to the effort to fix it by posting your disconnect details here:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45096-PS4-SMS-investigation-into-connection-issues

racesafegrandad
18-02-2016, 21:45
I don't know if this means anything but I played for hours yesterday and today on my PS4 and never got a DC. I was getting disconnects all the time last week and it became unplayable. Have I just been lucky or is it fixed? We live in hope.

Xx-Rickdj82-Xx
18-02-2016, 22:01
I've not had any DC's since the weekend.

Umer Ahmad
18-02-2016, 22:36
^this is why the problem will NOT be easy to fix, if at all.

It's inconsistent and perhaps regional. Yet the same code is running on all PS4 machines.

madmax2069
18-02-2016, 22:43
It seems like here lately all I see is red bars in every lobby I join (disconnects and warping cars everywhere) and I have a rock solid connection, I dont have a connection issue like this in any other online game I play, It only happens in Pcars.

My connection is more then enough to play Pcars and then some (30meg down, 8meg up). Before all of this started to happen I rarely ever seen a laggy room or many disconnects (only when the host had a horrible connection or he was really far away from my location).

In this state I can't play the game, haven't been able to play in a while due to this.

RomKnight
18-02-2016, 22:57
Note to self: try to note the bars on our next race (on PC) :)

Panopticism
18-02-2016, 23:19
I see connection issues of a similar sort on every game I play on PSN. In my experience, it has never been a stable, reliable service.

I never have connection issues on PC or any other device.

Ian Bell
19-02-2016, 00:09
I don't know if this means anything but I played for hours yesterday and today on my PS4 and never got a DC. I was getting disconnects all the time last week and it became unplayable. Have I just been lucky or is it fixed? We live in hope.

We are giving it a very thorough investigation yes.

To answer your question, there were sustained DDOS attacks on both Sony and Microsoft's networks (Sony being worse hit) that overlapped the period where most were complaining of disconnects. We're not leaving it to chance though just in case we've introduced a bug but preliminary results are indicating it was not something in our code.

Madmazz116
19-02-2016, 07:08
We are giving it a very thorough investigation yes.

To answer your question, there were sustained DDOS attacks on both Sony and Microsoft's networks (Sony being worse hit) that overlapped the period where most were complaining of disconnects. We're not leaving it to chance though just in case we've introduced a bug but preliminary results are indicating it was not something in our code.

Thank you.

Sankyo
19-02-2016, 11:35
My connection is more then enough to play Pcars and then some (30meg down, 8meg up). Before all of this started to happen I rarely ever seen a laggy room or many disconnects (only when the host had a horrible connection or he was really far away from my location).
Your connection speed is not important (with normal broadband internet anyway), but stability is. Stability can be affected by your hardware, but also by the PSN. Apparently there's a definite correlation between the number of disconnection/stability complaints in the past week and some DDOS attacks on PSN/Sony.

webuserjonny
19-02-2016, 12:23
I've been watching the outage map at http://downdetector.co.uk/problems/playstation-network/map/ for the past couple of weeks at all times day and night. I've noticed that it turns bad in different areas of the world at the peak usage times for that area. This definitely points to PSN problems. I've also noticed over this time that Xbox Live was suffering just as many connection problems.

I held a league race last night at 8pm and noted the map wasn't as bad as it has been and we only had 2 players get disconnected, whereas previously we were losing anywhere up to 6 or 7 players. Also these two players were showing red in the lobby. One of them I know hasn't got a great connection anyway.

Personally I've only had a couple of disconnections in the whole time the game has been out. I've got a very stable connection and I'm part of the SamKnows initiative (https://www.samknows.com/) that monitors every aspect of my connection and gives me access to every bit of information. In every area my connection is rock solid. :)

madmax2069
19-02-2016, 13:32
Your connection speed is not important (with normal broadband internet anyway), but stability is. Stability can be affected by your hardware, but also by the PSN. Apparently there's a definite correlation between the number of disconnection/stability complaints in the past week and some DDOS attacks on PSN/Sony.

Look, my connection is solid, its stable. I can play any other online game on my PS4 without any issues except for PCars, this has been a issue since a few patches ago, now PCars is totally unplayable for me online (doesn't matter if the person is local or not), im not being kicked off PSN (which would be a result of them being DDoS attacked, but I haven't), I remain connected to PSN (and any party chat I am in).

biggbaddwolf
19-02-2016, 13:45
Look, my connection is solid, its stable. I can play any other online game on my PS4 without any issues except for PCars, this has been a issue since a few patches ago, now PCars is totally unplayable for me online (doesn't matter if the person is local or not), im not being kicked off PSN (which would be a result of them being DDoS attacked, but I haven't), I remain connected to PSN (and any party chat I am in).
Same here, the only game I am having issues with is PCars, so that tells me something...

Ian Bell
19-02-2016, 14:02
Same here, the only game I am having issues with is PCars, so that tells me something...

I've just checked out the forums of other recent racing games that compare to ours (console, 1st party online network etc) and they are full of people complaining of the same issues. You can check Codemasters F1 2015 forums for a quick example. The pattern seems to be identical, very bad over the weekend/early week, improving for most but not all people in the last day or two.

Again, we are giving it a full investigation internally. Staff from all areas even outside of network code are running tests.

Madmazz116
19-02-2016, 14:11
I've just checked out the forums of other recent racing games that compare to ours (console, 1st party online network etc) and they are full of people complaining of the same issues. You can check Codemasters F1 2015 forums for a quick example. The pattern seems to be identical, very bad over the weekend/early week, improving for most but not all people in the last day or two.

This is true I had already checked other sites , F1 , Evolve, Helldivers , all experiancing disconnects , and its not just PS4 , Xbox one users also suffering same fate. But glad SMS are following through with tests.

Ian Bell
19-02-2016, 14:12
This is true I had already checked other sites , F1 , Evolve, Helldivers , all experiancing disconnects , and its not just PS4 , Xbox one users also suffering same fate. But glad SMS are following through with tests.

Yes, both Microsoft and Sony were attacked.

Sampo
19-02-2016, 15:25
Look, my connection is solid, its stable. I can play any other online game on my PS4 without any issues except for PCars, this has been a issue since a few patches ago, now PCars is totally unplayable for me online (doesn't matter if the person is local or not), im not being kicked off PSN (which would be a result of them being DDoS attacked, but I haven't), I remain connected to PSN (and any party chat I am in).

Remember that the login servers aren't game servers. You can be logged into PSN and still not be able to play. Also, not all game servers are behind the same network infrastructure. Just a thought.

VR-42
19-02-2016, 16:03
just seen that Sony are going to stress test the psn network this weekend by allowing anyone to multiplay without psn membership!

Umer Ahmad
19-02-2016, 16:39
haha! I saw that (http://twitter.com/PlayStation/status/700598225518989313)....I think I will avoid this forum until Monday! ;)

Liquid7394
19-02-2016, 20:57
It's not a stress test. They do free multiplayer weekends occasionally.

madmax2069
19-02-2016, 21:07
See here's the weird thing.

My connection without PCars running
227859

I boot PCars up and allow it to connect (with it just sitting at the main menu) with UDP on heres how the speed test turns out
227860

On the second test watching the speed dial it rapidly stutter and jitter about when PCars is running with UDP enabled (and it doesn't mater what rate I have it set at 1-9 it acts the same).

I get the same results every single time I test it. Without PCars running the speed test shows my connection as normal (no fluctuations in the speed bar), with PCars running and UDP enabled the speed test is all over the place (stuttering and jittering about and not even reaching its full speed). With UDP off and just sitting at the main menu the speed test goes back to showing everything's normal.

Now with UDP off I have no issue with the game (no lag and dont get disconnected).

bradleyland
19-02-2016, 21:34
See here's the weird thing.

My connection without PCars running
image snipped

I boot PCars up and allow it to connect (with it just sitting at the main menu) with UDP on heres how the speed test turns out
image snipped

On the second test watching the speed dial it rapidly stutter and jitter about when PCars is running with UDP enabled (and it doesn't mater what rate I have it set at 1-9 it acts the same).

I get the same results every single time I test it. Without PCars running the speed test shows my connection as normal (no fluctuations in the speed bar), with PCars running and UDP enabled the speed test is all over the place (stuttering and jittering about and not even reaching its full speed). With UDP off and just sitting at the main menu the speed test goes back to showing everything's normal.

Now with UDP off I have no issue with the game (no lag and dont get disconnected).

Your phone is connected to your network using WiFi. ProjectCars uses UDP broadcast, which can affect negatively WiFi networks, depending upon the WiFi access point/router. I have an Airport Extreme, and running ProjectCARS with UDP set to 4 hardly affects my network at all.

Without pCARS running:

http://i.imgur.com/XRsh7svl.png

With pCARS running UDP 4:

http://i.imgur.com/hcvAXYMl.png

When UDP broadcast traffic is present, some WiFi routers will throttle all WiFi devices to the speed of the slowest device on the network to ensure delivery of the UDP packets to all devices. This means that if you have a device that is connecting from far away (weak signal = slow throughput), the WiFi access point will throttle all WiFi devices to the rate of that device.

This is an unfortunate drawback of the fact that WiFi is a shared medium communications protocol. When one device on your network talks, all the others must keep their mouth's shut. Likewise, messages intended for all WiFi devices (broadcast) can only be transmitted at the rate of the slowest network member.

To reduce the impact of UDP broadcast on your network, you can try a couple of things. First up is to connect your PS4 via Ethernet cable instead of using WiFi. Secondly, you should check your router to see if any devices are connecting at a slow rate. Most WiFi routers provide a way to see "clients" along with their signal strength. Try disconnecting any devices with weak signal and test again.

Chin
19-02-2016, 21:48
For reference, I cannot even use UDP on my WiFi, despite its 802.11n speed. I get huge lag in the data over UDP. While you may not get perceivable lag, it may be dragging your network down. Food for thought...

Madmazz116
19-02-2016, 21:57
ok i posted earlier in this thread my information , heres the thing, I played earlier tonight about 7.30 to 8 I ran a multiplayer server with just me in it , 15 lap race no problems. Then about 9.05 ran the same game with a friend, lap 13 out of 15 he was disconnected. I hosted.

madmax2069
19-02-2016, 22:25
Your phone is connected to your network using WiFi. ProjectCars uses UDP broadcast, which can affect negatively WiFi networks, depending upon the WiFi access point/router. I have an Airport Extreme, and running ProjectCARS with UDP set to 4 hardly affects my network at all.

Without pCARS running:

http://i.imgur.com/XRsh7svl.png

With pCARS running UDP 4:

http://i.imgur.com/hcvAXYMl.png

When UDP broadcast traffic is present, some WiFi routers will throttle all WiFi devices to the speed of the slowest device on the network to ensure delivery of the UDP packets to all devices. This means that if you have a device that is connecting from far away (weak signal = slow throughput), the WiFi access point will throttle all WiFi devices to the rate of that device.

This is an unfortunate drawback of the fact that WiFi is a shared medium communications protocol. When one device on your network talks, all the others must keep their mouth's shut. Likewise, messages intended for all WiFi devices (broadcast) can only be transmitted at the rate of the slowest network member.

To reduce the impact of UDP broadcast on your network, you can try a couple of things. First up is to connect your PS4 via Ethernet cable instead of using WiFi. Secondly, you should check your router to see if any devices are connecting at a slow rate. Most WiFi routers provide a way to see "clients" along with their signal strength. Try disconnecting any devices with weak signal and test again.

My system is connected by ethernet, all my devices in the house are at least wireless N or above (the router is wireless N).

And it doesn't matter if I stand right next to the router with the device I'm using for speed test it still does the same thing.

Having UDP on causes me not to be able to play online in PCars, I can join lobbies but im lagging really bad (everyone is warping about) in said game shows red bars for everyone, and eventually disconnect. If I connect to the same lobby with UDP off I can play just fine (no lag, no disconnects, see a few green and yellow bars).

rillelives
20-02-2016, 09:01
All my PSN-related connection issues (DC) gone when i created a DMZ on my router and "placed" the PS4 there. I am quite sure PSN has some kind of built-in NAT-problems for certain network scenarios....

Madmazz116
20-02-2016, 11:13
All my PSN-related connection issues (DC) gone when i created a DMZ on my router and "placed" the PS4 there. I am quite sure PSN has some kind of built-in NAT-problems for certain network scenarios....

If this was a solution then why doesn't sms just come and say that.

could_do_better
20-02-2016, 11:33
Perhaps because they don't know about it yet?

Perhaps @rillelives has made a discovery that one or two others with problems should try and verify.

Madmazz116
20-02-2016, 14:23
Perhaps because they don't know about it yet?

Perhaps @rillelives has made a discovery that one or two others with problems should try and verify.

Agreed, I'm going to try this.

Madmazz116
20-02-2016, 16:07
All my PSN-related connection issues (DC) gone when i created a DMZ on my router and "placed" the PS4 there. I am quite sure PSN has some kind of built-in NAT-problems for certain network scenarios....

This does not work I had a disconnect halfway through a 15 lap race, I hosted a sever just me in it.

Madmazz116
20-02-2016, 17:20
Just an update I can't even get past a couple of laps without being disconnected, sat pm 5:20 UK

Tried several times since 5pm been kicked out everytime but funny thing is it is almost always halfway through the race normally on lap 7 out of 15, getting seriously annoying now

Take that back just got disconnected before even got out of the garage

Renoldo1990
20-02-2016, 18:09
So, all League-Events which take part on weekends have to be cancelled for the third time in a row.
It's really annoying. And not a single word from Sony on this Issue.

Umer Ahmad
20-02-2016, 18:43
I'm shocked! #NotReally
https://twitter.com/jzacarias117/status/700060990558220288

Madmazz116
20-02-2016, 18:57
I'm shocked! #NotReally
https://twitter.com/jzacarias117/status/700060990558220288

Don't quite understand your comment umer

Umer Ahmad
20-02-2016, 19:08
I very much anticipated further network orobkems this weekend.

I see reports of outages all over the USA in past 24 hours: Chicago, Indiana, Tennesee , north Carolina, Florida...just a complete mess again this weekend. And Sony even invited all PS4 owners to their PSN this weekend!

@Playstation is their Twitter account, let them hear your thoughts Use #psndown

Madmazz116
20-02-2016, 19:09
I very much anticipated further network orobkems this weekend.

I see reports of outages all over the USA in past 24 hours: Chicago, Indiana, Tennesee , north Carolina, Florida...just a complete mess again this weekend. And Sony even invited all PS4 owners to their PSN this weekend!

@Playstation is their Twitter account, let them hear your thoughts Use #psndown

Ah right, I give up now anyway pointless even trying at the mo , laters guys

Liquid7394
20-02-2016, 19:27
Give it a rest with the constant trolling, PSN isn't down.

Umer Ahmad
20-02-2016, 19:47
Click the link in my signature and see for yourself

Liquid7394
20-02-2016, 19:58
I'll sign into PSN and play online to see for myself, something you clearly haven't done.

Sankyo
20-02-2016, 20:15
Give it a rest with the constant trolling, PSN isn't down.
Stop calling showing possible causes of disconnects 'trolling' please.

Boskapongen
20-02-2016, 20:20
Just go to Twitch, search for The Division, look for PS4 streams....pretty good way to see if PSN is having issues... i know Pcars has ATM and have had for the last 4 hours..

Liquid7394
20-02-2016, 20:24
Stop calling showing possible causes of disconnects 'trolling' please.How is this a possible cause of disconnections? It's trolling.

I'm shocked! #NotReally
https://twitter.com/jzacarias117/status/700060990558220288

Liquid7394
20-02-2016, 20:29
If PSN was actually down then there would be no PS4 The Division streams. I'm sure a few people are having issues with PSN, there's always someone complaining about an online service, but a few people having issues doesn't mean the entire network is down. Unless Sony officially state it's down then it isn't down.

Boskapongen
20-02-2016, 20:38
Thats my point, why is Division (100% online game) working for thousands of people and pcars doesnt.....beats me.

My friend is streaming pcars atm and trying online every 15min. Disconnect prettey much immediately, every time,

Sampo
20-02-2016, 20:49
Perhaps a 100% online game from a big studio is getting preferential treatment? The game servers for different games aren't behind the same network infrastructure. I don't have PS4 but just a thought.

Androphonomania
20-02-2016, 20:50
Maybe that psn has different resources for different games?
Is that possible? Just asking, having zero knowledge about IT...
Just sucks, 3rd weekend in a row where playing the only sim on ps4 is not possible.
Getting reports of my community (german) about constant disconnections since 5 pm.

Boskapongen
20-02-2016, 20:53
Maybe that psn has different resources for different games?
Is that possible? Just asking, having zero knowledge about IT...
Just sucks, 3rd weekend in a row where playing the only sim on ps4 is not possible.
Getting reports of my community (german) about constant disconnections since 5 pm.

Our gang is players from Sweden, Netherlands, UK and Spain, all have same issue.

Boskapongen
20-02-2016, 21:13
Maybe that psn has different resources for different games?
Is that possible? Just asking, having zero knowledge about IT...

This is pretty easy to test though, if you have Driveclub, any of them two new rallygames. Start them and try online sission. All of those three should in my opinion be "lower ranked" than pcars.

Liquid7394
20-02-2016, 21:20
Driveclub is an exclusive though.

Boskapongen
20-02-2016, 21:27
Driveclub is an exclusive though.

Well, Division, BF4, Destiny etc etc not exclusive either and they work, i dunno anymore. Soon dont care either, I just wanna race.
Still, SMS is paying Sony (i believe) for online service. Should work. My webshop is very tiny compared to Amazon but its still works 365/24/7 coz thats what I pay for.

Umer Ahmad
20-02-2016, 23:54
Battlefield players also reported problems. It is one of 12 games i have seen with reported online issues in 7 days

SMS pays Sony nothing for online pay.

ChrisK
21-02-2016, 01:10
it makes no sense that i haven't been booted from a single other MP online game but get dc from pcars with monotonous regularity. i get occasional glitches in other games but its not a complete disconnect and booted off the game. and its certainly not ANY blue screen crashes. exactly the same experience reported by every other person i race with every week.

anyway, no point complaining anymore as far as im concerned. we have a choice to live with it and take the good with the bad or stop playing. like i said 6 months ago, it aint gonna get fixed.

on a positive note though, the ffb/ tyres or whatever they changed in the latest patch has made the driving experience better than ever. it feels great when its working. please do NOT change anything in ffb/ tyres again cos its spot on.

Boskapongen
21-02-2016, 02:02
Me and my racing buddy just played Division for 4 hours. NO issues online at all.

Madmazz116
21-02-2016, 09:08
Me and my racing buddy just played Division for 4 hours. NO issues online at all.

Dedicated Servers?..just a thought..Im on your side guys... its seriously annoying when a great game like this is having serious (and they are serious) issues online. I so hope someone somewhere comes up with the answer , because I feel if it drags on for much longer people will just give on up this game and move on, and thats not a good thing, not good for this game not good for Pcars 2 (even if its nothing to do with SMS).

Fractured Life
21-02-2016, 17:16
I see a few people claiming it does not affect other games. It definitely affects the F1 2015 online experience as there have been a lot of complaints over on the codies forums.

I also saw somewhere that PSN implemented some change as a precaution against the cyber attacks they have been hit with, some kind of bandwidth limit per user, if I can find that quote I'll add it.


This is not a pCars specific issue on PS4.

(THIS BIT IS OFF TOPIC: strangely we did have to cancel our Thursday pCars Xbox league race due to mass disconnections from 2 separate lobbies!)

Boskapongen
21-02-2016, 17:37
I see a few people claiming it does not affect other games. It definitely affects the F1 2015 online experience as there have been a lot of complaints over on the codies forums.

I also saw somewhere that PSN implemented some change as a precaution against the cyber attacks they have been hit with, some kind of bandwidth limit per user, if I can find that quote I'll add it.


This is not a pCars specific issue on PS4.



Isnt it funny that both F1 and Pcars are Bandai Namco....none of them work.

Madmazz116
21-02-2016, 17:45
I also saw somewhere that PSN implemented some change as a precaution against the cyber attacks they have been hit with, some kind of bandwidth limit per user, if I can find that quote I'll add it.

Your kidding me right?..so we pay for Sony to "throttle" our gaming experience?...I'd like to see that quote.

bradleyland
21-02-2016, 17:49
It's non-stop disconnects for me this morning. The problem is so bad, I wanted to make sure it wasn't some kind of network issue on my end.

I've got a continuous ping running in the background. I can't ping PSN, because their networks drop ICMP, so instead I'm pinging 4.2.2.2, which is a high-availability Layer 3 DNS cluster. I wanted to make sure I wasn't seeing latency spikes. Here are my ping stats:

--- 4.2.2.2 ping statistics ---
9783 packets transmitted, 9783 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 48.601/63.228/629.820/58.522 ms

I am seeing the occasional latency spike, but there is no correlation between the spikes and the disconnects. The stddev is still well within what I would consider a stable connection.

I'm pretty confident I don't have a connection issue.

Boskapongen
21-02-2016, 17:51
F1 2015 having same issues, both games are from Bandai Namco!

I am gonna call Sony tomorrow and try to get some REAL answers, coz we aint gonna get it in here, thats for sure. If you want anything done, do it yourself. Will report back. Game hasnt work for the last four days and been is this state the last 14 days. Not acceptable.

My frind actuallt emailed Sony last week about it, their reply; "whats Pcars" ? Kid you not, pretty funny though.


"They could send man to the moon 1969 but cant get online gaming to work 2016"

Jever
21-02-2016, 19:48
Since day one, I have been disconnected twice. Today in less than 6 minutes 3 times!!!

Didn't dare to try quali with 5 minutes left.
When the lights hit green, 3 guys where out, then after 5 sec of racing. I was out too.

Now this is really pathetic, regardless who's fault it is.
PSN status report, says all well...... This is to much, I have had some fun in this game..... But now I'm sorry guys, the fun is allmost out.

We raced a multi race, we got full grid, trying new race setup. Then boom you can not trust the game, to stay "alive"
Sorry for the frustration, but it's not worth a penny anymore.

Raeang
21-02-2016, 20:55
I have being trying to connect to an online race for 1/2 hour now and nothing!!!! Anybody else can't race?

bradleyland
21-02-2016, 21:02
Your kidding me right?..so we pay for Sony to "throttle" our gaming experience?...I'd like to see that quote.

Limiting bandwidth per user wouldn't negatively impact your online performance. Gaming actually doesn't require much bandwidth at all. It's a few mbps on the high side. What it does require, is low latency. Here's a little anecdote I use to explain the difference between latency and bandwidth.

Let's say you're back in the 1950s want to send messages to someone in your office. There's a courier service in your office, but you can only send one sheet of paper at a time. The courier will take your messages and deliver them to anyone in the building.

Latency is the time that it takes the courier to deliver your message. Bandwidth is how many messages the courier can deliver in a fixed period of time.

Bandwidth can be limited by latency. For example, if it takes your courier 30s to deliver a message to the recipient, you can send, at most, 2 pages per minute. If the time required to deliver was cut to 15s, you could deliver 4 pages per minute.

Let's say the time to deliver is still 30s, but your courier decides he can how deliver 2 pages at a time, instead of 1. Bam! You've doubled your bandwidth to 2 pages per minute, even with the same latency. It's important to remember that it still takes 30s for your message to get there! If you need to get a message to someone in 15 seconds, it doesn't matter how many pages the courier is willing to carry. That doesn't help you.

I know that gets a little contrived, and network engineers will be quick to point out deficiencies in the analogy, but it's enough for most people to understand this important fact about networks: latency and bandwidth are related, but they are not the same thing. When gaming, you don't need to send a ton of information, but you do need your messages to get there quickly. That's why throttling on the PSN doesn't matter. Sony will set the bandwidth throttling limit at a level that accommodates any gaming scenario. What they're trying to fix is people who send (unrealistically large) bullshit traffic to the PSN, which impacts everyone. Restricting connection throughput to a level that reflects actual gameplay is something they should have been doing since the very beginning.

Boskapongen
21-02-2016, 21:14
yes, does not work.

GR4DEMON
21-02-2016, 21:22
Surley you now have enough info

webuserjonny
21-02-2016, 21:36
The PSN network is struggling. I've had disconnections this evening from MGS and The Division. I couldn't join or create a party. It's a Sony problem, not Project Cars. :(

This screen grab taken just 5 minutes ago:

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k300/john_wells4/Untitled-1.jpg

Umer Ahmad
21-02-2016, 22:37
It looked better about 4-6 hours ago. Lets just say PSN is not 100% healthy past few weeks.

Liquid7394
21-02-2016, 22:41
That screen grab is worthless without numbers. Either way SMS have said they're looking into it so there isn't much more that can be done.

I'd like to say thanks to the coward who gave me negative rep saying "stop talking". I'm glad my comments upset you that much.

bradleyland
21-02-2016, 23:09
My system is connected by ethernet, all my devices in the house are at least wireless N or above (the router is wireless N).

And it doesn't matter if I stand right next to the router with the device I'm using for speed test it still does the same thing.

Having UDP on causes me not to be able to play online in PCars, I can join lobbies but im lagging really bad (everyone is warping about) in said game shows red bars for everyone, and eventually disconnect. If I connect to the same lobby with UDP off I can play just fine (no lag, no disconnects, see a few green and yellow bars).

I'm afraid that your WiFi AP's UDP broadcast implementation is lacking then, because the maximum throughput of the ProjectCARS UDP stream is around 1 mbps. It's just not enough data to really tear down a network unless something else is going on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't have a problem. It's obvious there's service degradation, but if your network devices can't handle a 1 mbps UDB broadcast, you'll have to do some investigation in to what component is failing to uphold its specification.

ChrisK
22-02-2016, 04:37
I wonder if pcars is less tolerant of connection interruptions. Ie: the moment you lose a split second of connection you get booted. Whereas in other online games there is less binary relationship. That would be the only way I could imagine that we have this situation where PCars is the worst affected by a network issue.

Ian Bell
22-02-2016, 08:19
Isnt it funny that both F1 and Pcars are Bandai Namco....none of them work.

Bandai Namco have no relationship to the first party online systems we use. As of my last investigation, 8 other recent games have experienced issues during the DDOS attacks.

We think that those games that utilise 'rebroadcasting' suffered the most and we do indeed use this.

Mascot
22-02-2016, 08:30
Bandai Namco have no relationship to the first party online systems we use. As of my last investigation, 8 other recent games have experienced issues during the DDOS attacks.

We think that those games that utilise 'rebroadcasting' suffered the most and we do indeed use this.

What is this 'rebroadcasting' of which you speak..?

Ian Bell
22-02-2016, 08:38
What is this 'rebroadcasting' of which you speak..?

This really need one of my 5000 online coders to answer but as I understand it, in a basic form, it's a case of each user providing a little in the way of server/'hosting' assistance to the other players.

It requires some very cool code that normally works very well. I think, and this really is an assumption as we've yet to get detailed responses from first parties about last weeks issue, I think rebroadcasting is suffering exponentially worse than other hosting/network strategies following the DDOS attacks and whatever protections the first parties put in place to protect themselves following that.

Madmazz116
22-02-2016, 09:32
This really need one of my 5000 online coders to answer but as I understand it, in a basic form, it's a case of each user providing a little in the way of server/'hosting' assistance to the other players.

It requires some very cool code that normally works very well. I think, and this really is an assumption as we've yet to get detailed responses from first parties about last weeks issue, I think rebroadcasting is suffering exponentially worse than other hosting/network strategies following the DDOS attacks and whatever protections the first parties put in place to protect themselves following that.

Ian, assuming you get detailed responses from first parties, can it be fixed?

deedub777
22-02-2016, 11:34
In response to what is rebroadcasting...

This really need one of my 5000 online coders to answer but as I understand it, in a basic form, it's a case of each user providing a little in the way of server/'hosting' assistance to the other players.

It requires some very cool code that normally works very well. I think, and this really is an assumption as we've yet to get detailed responses from first parties about last weeks issue, I think rebroadcasting is suffering exponentially worse than other hosting/network strategies following the DDOS attacks and whatever protections the first parties put in place to protect themselves following that.
Given that rebroadcasting is reliant on other parties in the lobby, does that mean our league races that include members from UK, and US are more prone to disconnects? For example, If I race in the UK with three guys from the US, am I more likely to suffer lag and disconnects than only racing with UK guys?

Bealdor
22-02-2016, 11:41
Moved chat from sticky thread about disconnections (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45096-PS4-SMS-investigation-into-connection-issues) to here and updated thread title.

Gasman888
22-02-2016, 13:31
I've just spoken to Playstation support who told me they are unaware of any complaints or issues with pcars (or any other racing titles) regarding dc's. They said they can only investigate this issue if they receive a number of calls regarding the same issue so get dialling guys and girls, let's help sort this out. Ps support 0203 538 2665

Boskapongen
22-02-2016, 13:52
My friend mailed tham last week, they didnt even know what game Pcars was, LOL... maybe ask a co-worker or GOOGLE? (what about, GTA, MGS, BF4, COD) ;)
However efter explaining what the title with links and pictures he got a new answer.

228063228064

Sankyo
22-02-2016, 13:58
Remember that people not 'in the in-crowd' refer to the game as "Project CARS" ;)

Gasman888
22-02-2016, 14:06
My friend mailed tham last week, they didnt even know what game Pcars was, LOL... maybe ask a co-worker or GOOGLE? (what about, GTA, MGS, BF4, COD) ;)
However efter explaining what the title with links and pictures he got a new answer.

228063228064

This is a standard response because they haven't received many complaints about the issue, if they receive a number of calls from us they WILL look into it in more detail, get dialling people 0203 538 2665

RichW
22-02-2016, 14:07
So what's going on here then? I thought SMS were working with PS to resolve this issue but when customers call PS support they have never heard of the issue before? I think someone is lying here....

Gasman888
22-02-2016, 14:13
Nothing will get resolved by pointing fingers or shouting abuse at each other here, if the same people that are complaining here call ps support and complain there, we will have both parties looking into it properly and hopefully get this nightmare situation resolved quicker.
P.s I think calling them works better than an email as you can explain its a very common problem and not an individual problem with your own connection etc. 0203 538 2665

Madmazz116
22-02-2016, 14:18
So what's going on here then? I thought SMS were working with PS to resolve this issue but when customers call PS support they have never heard of the issue before? I think someone is lying here....

it may be SMS are dealing direct with the Network side of Sony, whereas must of us will get through to so called customer service, who wont have the details the dev side do.

RichW
22-02-2016, 14:19
Sorry Gasman not having a go, just pointing out that it's very very surprising to hear that PS Support aren't aware of it considering this issue has been going on for 2/3 weeks and SMS have supposedly been working with PS to resolve the issue? That doesn't add up to me. Will give the PS support guys a call though and raise the issue with them as well. Thanks.

Madmazz116
22-02-2016, 14:19
Nothing will get resolved by pointing fingers or shouting abuse at each other here, if the same people that are complaining here call ps support and complain there, we will have both parties looking into it properly and hopefully get this nightmare situation resolved quicker.
P.s I think calling them works better than an email as you can explain its a very common problem and not an individual problem with your own connection etc. 0203 538 2665

At the end of the day we as paying customers both to SMS and Sony shouldnt have to do this, but if the cap fits..i'll wear it

Sankyo
22-02-2016, 14:20
So what's going on here then? I thought SMS were working with PS to resolve this issue but when customers call PS support they have never heard of the issue before? I think someone is lying here....
So many people drawing the 'lying' card so quickly. How about bad communication? How about using different communication channels? How about slow information within Sony?

Madmazz116
22-02-2016, 14:31
So many people drawing the 'lying' card so quickly. How about bad communication? How about using different communication channels? How about slow information within Sony?

yeh, c'mon guys , i thinks its in SMS's interest to get this sorted, they wouldnt gain anything by lying.

RichW
22-02-2016, 14:47
So many people drawing the 'lying' card so quickly. How about bad communication? How about using different communication channels? How about slow information within Sony?

I could understand that but after about 2 weeks of raising it on here to contact Sony only to be told they've never heard of the issue is pretty disconcerting from our (customers) point of view and doesn't really raise any hope that this will be sorted anytime soon. I understand that you guys are working hard but it would be great to just get some clarity on what's being done. I'll help all I can by phoning the line Gasman mentions and keep an eye on here.

Boskapongen
22-02-2016, 14:52
Remember that people not 'in the in-crowd' refer to the game as "Project CARS" ;)

I know, people are just lazy or stuped, sometimes both..

228066

Slicker_VR
22-02-2016, 17:59
just to encourage EVERYONE to ring and e-mail sony, i rang them late this afternoon and they're still saying they're 'unaware of any disconnection issues'

their number is 0203 538 2665

bradleyland
22-02-2016, 18:32
I could understand that but after about 2 weeks of raising it on here to contact Sony only to be told they've never heard of the issue is pretty disconcerting from our (customers) point of view and doesn't really raise any hope that this will be sorted anytime soon. I understand that you guys are working hard but it would be great to just get some clarity on what's being done. I'll help all I can by phoning the line Gasman mentions and keep an eye on here.

When you call PSN support, you are talking to a call center full of employees who work from a set of support scripts. All of those support reps work from within a walled garden. They've never even spoken to someone on the publisher support side of the business, which is the side that SMS talks to. PSN customer support's job is to help customers resolve issues related to things like passwords and network settings (double-NAT, shitty ISP devices, etc).

The disconnect issue is a network operations and systems engineering issue. These groups are walled off from any contact with customer support reps, because they're way to expensive to expose to an onslaught of customer support requests. The most you'll get from Sony is an acknowledgement of a "known issue with the network impacting customers", but they're notoriously bad about disseminating information about their network performance. Their strategy is to simply say nothing, and hope that the problems go away. Look at the number of times PSN has been down completely, and Sony waits (literally) weeks or months to release an actual statement. At one point, they had to rebuild their entire network, and they didn't tell anyone about it until months after it was all done.

This would be an understandable mistake if you hadn't jumped directly to accusations of lying. How about starting from the basis that maybe you don't understand how a massive support organization works? Sony had over 130,000 employees at the end of FY 2014. PSN had 77 million subscribers back in 2011 (not sure what their current number is). Is it all that surprising that someone in a PSN call center designed for handling calls that are 99% password resets and router issues from a base of 77 million customers wouldn't know about an issue with a specific game title? I don't find it surprising at all. There are simply too many games, and too many customers. Communications get boiled down to pre-approved one-liners based on the current issues.

Meanwhile, SMS employees (the actual people managing and delivering the game) are here on the forum sharing detailed information about technical specifics, which is something they don't have to do at all. They could just as easily adopt the Sony strategy of saying nothing at all, then releasing a one-page press release months after the fact.

This problem sucks. I don't have a PSN subscription, but this weekend, PSN was free, and it was a complete shitshow online. I tried ProjectCARS and had a mind-boggling number of disconnects. There's no way I'm giving Sony any money for this service until the issue is resolved. I feel for anyone who has already paid for a PSN subscription and is suffering through this garbage.

However, you've got to take a step back and make sure you've properly identified the target of your frustration. By all appearances, SMS are in the same boat as us. They're subjugate to Sony in this circumstance, just like us. They're in an even tougher spot, because I guarantee you that they've signed agreements they're at risk violating every time they post here. Publisher agreements are notoriously strict about disclosing information related to network performance or feedback received from publisher support. SMS risks having Sony kick them off their platform. Please keep that in mind the next time you accuse someone of lying in their own self-interest.

bradleyland
22-02-2016, 18:33
I know, people are just lazy or stuped, sometimes both..

snip...

These are call center reps. It's unlikely they even have access to Google. Call center employees are typically restricted to accessing support resources only.

Jever
22-02-2016, 18:38
I know this is disc tread. But in our race yesterday, everything was wrong.

People get to pits, no refueling, no new tires. One guys car stopped at the track for 10 seconds. And out of full grid 2 guys crossed the finish line. 10 disconnects....10!!!

Sorry dudes (sms) something is very wrong guys.

Rymix
22-02-2016, 22:22
My experience this evening: not disconnected once, but cars materialising all over the place, ruining everything. Some were probably on bad connections, but this was extraordinary. Lots of 'syncing' plus my timer was all wrong. I'd have 10seconds left in a session them it would jumps to 0. Whether this is a PSN thing or SMS, I don't know. Right now the game is unplayable online.

Umer Ahmad
22-02-2016, 23:45
^Sometimes when "everything" seems wrong online -- ALL other opponents cars warping -- it can mean YOU have the problem.

Slicker_VR
23-02-2016, 00:41
to be fair we had some similar issues tonight - including this doozy:-

https://youtu.be/EwEJSqLytTk

Ian Bell
23-02-2016, 03:42
So what's going on here then? I thought SMS were working with PS to resolve this issue but when customers call PS support they have never heard of the issue before? I think someone is lying here....

Different departments, no lies or conspiracy. We're talking to their developer accounts team, the public talk to another team.

Madmazz116
23-02-2016, 07:08
to be fair we had some similar issues tonight - including this doozy:-

https://youtu.be/EwEJSqLytTk

lol...

Rymix
23-02-2016, 07:11
^Sometimes when "everything" seems wrong online -- ALL other opponents cars warping -- it can mean YOU have the problem.

Sometimes but not this time. I was talking to a number of people about the problems, all of whom were seeing the same thing. Quit possible that Sony changed something and the issues manifested themselves differently yesterday. But who knows? Sony won't give anything away. I can only hope they're being open with developers.

Ramiboo
23-02-2016, 11:46
Ok, I'm in the camp that UDP will effect the online multiplayer experience and here my thinking to this. This may get a little technical, but I'll try to keep it laymen.

The UDP option broadcasts UDP packets to all devices on the network regardless if they want them or not. Most people at home have 1 layer 2 network area and covers all wired and wireless devices that are connected. And when I say all devices, I mean from a home thermostat, to a printer, to a mobile phone, to a fridge, to a PS4, etc. Even when most of these devices are in standby mode the network adapter (wired or wifi) may still be connected to the network. Most wifi networks work on a round robin approach when it comes to sending and receiving network traffic in techie speak we basically call this half duplex. Just one client can speak to the AP at once, and can only transmit or receive at a time. Ah, I hear you say, my wifi is dual channel. Well that's great, that means you dual channel wifi device can send and receive at the same time!! However that does still leave the rest of you wifi devices waiting till that device has finished it's communication. In regards to the broadcast traffic being sent by the UDP stream, everytime a broadcast is sent none of the clients can transmit back to the access point so that's why you are having issues with your other wifi devices when pCars is running.

Now, lets think about how this can affect the multiplayer experience. Say you're PS4 is connected to the Wifi network, or it's connected to a wire via a ethernet power plug (Also Half Duplex), or wired to via a wifi extender. Your PS4 is doing 2 things, it's sending unicast packets to the playstation network for multiplayer communication, and it's sending Broadcasts to your local network. It's very possible that the broadcast traffic is interrupting the unicast traffic and increasing your latency (or ping response time) meaning you will have increased lag in your game, and that lag will fluctuate all the time depending on other network activity. This might not be a huge problem if it was just you're positional data you were sending in to the multiplayer network. You are rebroadcasting other player data with your data. 1 player does not send his data to the other 15 players the lobby (31 for PC) you will pair with a handful of players so you data gets re-broadcasted to the whole lobby. If you pair with someone that has high latency, then other player will see you lagging, and some players will not, so it's not just your connection you have to worry about.

I said this in the original thread when the UDP stream was being announced. Not in so many words, but I did warn that broadcast traffic is bad, and multicast is a much better option. In a multicast stream, only the devices wanting the stream will receive it, as they are the only ones that will subscribe to it, this will then cause less traffic on the local lan. It may still cause increased lag if you're PS4/PC is connected to the internet via wifi though.

There are 2 thing to find out when you are in a multiplayer lobby with high LAG issues.

1. Are any players using wifi to get to the internet from either their PS4, PC, or XBONE?
2. do any of those players have the UDP streaming turned on?

If the answer is yes to both, get them to turn it off and test. Or better still get yourselves onto a wired connection, the latency in Wifi networks fluctuates too much when there are multiple active devices on the network.

Madmazz116
23-02-2016, 12:08
Ok, I'm in the camp that UDP will effect the online multiplayer experience and here my thinking to this. This may get a little technical, but I'll try to keep it laymen.

The UDP option broadcasts UDP packets to all devices on the network regardless if they want them or not. Most people at home have 1 layer 2 network area and covers all wired and wireless devices that are connected. And when I say all devices, I mean from a home thermostat, to a printer, to a mobile phone, to a fridge, to a PS4, etc. Even when most of these devices are in standby mode the network adapter (wired or wifi) may still be connected to the network. Most wifi networks work on a round robin approach when it comes to sending and receiving network traffic in techie speak we basically call this half duplex. Just one client can speak to the AP at once, and can only transmit or receive at a time. Ah, I hear you say, my wifi is dual channel. Well that's great, that means you dual channel wifi device can send and receive at the same time!! However that does still leave the rest of you wifi devices waiting till that device has finished it's communication. In regards to the broadcast traffic being sent by the UDP stream, everytime a broadcast is sent none of the clients can transmit back to the access point so that's why you are having issues with your other wifi devices when pCars is running.

Now, lets think about how this can affect the multiplayer experience. Say you're PS4 is connected to the Wifi network, or it's connected to a wire via a ethernet power plug (Also Half Duplex), or wired to via a wifi extender. Your PS4 is doing 2 things, it's sending unicast packets to the playstation network for multiplayer communication, and it's sending Broadcasts to your local network. It's very possible that the broadcast traffic is interrupting the unicast traffic and increasing your latency (or ping response time) meaning you will have increased lag in your game, and that lag will fluctuate all the time depending on other network activity. This might not be a huge problem if it was just you're positional data you were sending in to the multiplayer network. You are rebroadcasting other player data with your data. 1 player does not send his data to the other 15 players the lobby (31 for PC) you will pair with a handful of players so you data gets re-broadcasted to the whole lobby. If you pair with someone that has high latency, then other player will see you lagging, and some players will not, so it's not just your connection you have to worry about.

I said this in the original thread when the UDP stream was being announced. Not in so many words, but I did warn that broadcast traffic is bad, and multicast is a much better option. In a multicast stream, only the devices wanting the stream will receive it, as they are the only ones that will subscribe to it, this will then cause less traffic on the local lan. It may still cause increased lag if you're PS4/PC is connected to the internet via wifi though.

There are 2 thing to find out when you are in a multiplayer lobby with high LAG issues.

1. Are any players using wifi to get to the internet from either their PS4, PC, or XBONE?
2. do any of those players have the UDP streaming turned on?

If the answer is yes to both, get them to turn it off and test. Or better still get yourselves onto a wired connection, the latency in Wifi networks fluctuates too much when there are multiple active devices on the network.

I thnk the majority of players that are disconnecting are wired anyway, its not lag thats the problem with most players its getting chucked out of the game. (unless of course your post is for rymix, then soz.)

Ramiboo
23-02-2016, 12:33
there's quite a bit of chat in here about the UDP stream causing internet slow down in here and I wanted to explain how or why the UDP stream could affect it. That combined with the way multiplayer does re-broadcasting of player data, can cause multiplayer issues.

Here are the P-2-P multiplayer issues I had last Sunday. Yes this is PC and not PS4 but we are all getting multiplayer issues. In the last example, it shows how I can see one player with crazy lag issues but other players see him fine.

Lag Crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiFWjCJ4PKc

Monitoring a lagging car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80i-_3rcGsw

The lagging player in the second video is completely fine when running on a DS, but I was obviously receiving his positional data via a user that had really bad connectivity.

Liquid7394
23-02-2016, 12:34
In case anyone didn't know, there is PSN maintenance on the 2nd March from 5:30 - 7:30 GMT.

https://status.playstation.com/en-GB/

bradleyland
23-02-2016, 14:32
Ok, I'm in the camp that UDP will effect the online multiplayer experience and here my thinking to this. This may get a little technical, but I'll try to keep it laymen.

The UDP option broadcasts UDP packets to all devices on the network regardless if they want them or not. Most people at home have 1 layer 2 network area and covers all wired and wireless devices that are connected. And when I say all devices, I mean from a home thermostat, to a printer, to a mobile phone, to a fridge, to a PS4, etc. Even when most of these devices are in standby mode the network adapter (wired or wifi) may still be connected to the network. Most wifi networks work on a round robin approach when it comes to sending and receiving network traffic in techie speak we basically call this half duplex. Just one client can speak to the AP at once, and can only transmit or receive at a time. Ah, I hear you say, my wifi is dual channel. Well that's great, that means you dual channel wifi device can send and receive at the same time!! However that does still leave the rest of you wifi devices waiting till that device has finished it's communication. In regards to the broadcast traffic being sent by the UDP stream, everytime a broadcast is sent none of the clients can transmit back to the access point so that's why you are having issues with your other wifi devices when pCars is running.

Now, lets think about how this can affect the multiplayer experience. Say you're PS4 is connected to the Wifi network, or it's connected to a wire via a ethernet power plug (Also Half Duplex), or wired to via a wifi extender. Your PS4 is doing 2 things, it's sending unicast packets to the playstation network for multiplayer communication, and it's sending Broadcasts to your local network. It's very possible that the broadcast traffic is interrupting the unicast traffic and increasing your latency (or ping response time) meaning you will have increased lag in your game, and that lag will fluctuate all the time depending on other network activity. This might not be a huge problem if it was just you're positional data you were sending in to the multiplayer network. You are rebroadcasting other player data with your data. 1 player does not send his data to the other 15 players the lobby (31 for PC) you will pair with a handful of players so you data gets re-broadcasted to the whole lobby. If you pair with someone that has high latency, then other player will see you lagging, and some players will not, so it's not just your connection you have to worry about.

I said this in the original thread when the UDP stream was being announced. Not in so many words, but I did warn that broadcast traffic is bad, and multicast is a much better option. In a multicast stream, only the devices wanting the stream will receive it, as they are the only ones that will subscribe to it, this will then cause less traffic on the local lan. It may still cause increased lag if you're PS4/PC is connected to the internet via wifi though.

There are 2 thing to find out when you are in a multiplayer lobby with high LAG issues.

1. Are any players using wifi to get to the internet from either their PS4, PC, or XBONE?
2. do any of those players have the UDP streaming turned on?

If the answer is yes to both, get them to turn it off and test. Or better still get yourselves onto a wired connection, the latency in Wifi networks fluctuates too much when there are multiple active devices on the network.

I'm in the IT field with a background in networking as well [1]. Let me start out by saying, nothing you've said is wrong, so I'm not disputing your premise. Unfortunately, I've tested these assertions and not found any correlation. My PS4 is connected to a gigabit switched Ethernet network, and I still experienced the disconnects with and without UDP broadcast enabled.

I've tested latency on my LAN, looking at both Ethernet latency and WiFi. UDP streaming does not adversely affect latency on either.

The UDP stream bandwidth tops out at around 1 mbps. I determined this by running Wireshark captures on a WiFi interface, filtering by UDP port to capture only PCars broadcast traffic. At the middle and lower settings, the traffic is less than 1 mbps. I also verified that the transmit rates documented on the forum match what actually happens on the network.

There is a group of users who experience issues with broadcast traffic over WiFi, but those issues are a sub-set of the larger disconnect issue. I'm running an optimal network scenario, and I still encountered the disconnects over the weekend.

1: I've designed and implemented large networks for companies with hundreds of offices using mixed networks including carrier ethernet, MPLS, VPLS, and VPN.

Ramiboo
23-02-2016, 15:53
Hey Bradley, thanks for the quote. I'm stuck at work at the moment, but I'm also keen to do some packet captures and stats on the UDP stream after reading this thread and I'll try to do some later.

From the sounds of the forum chat around the net it does look like there was an issue on the PSN over the weekend. This I'm sure has caused a load of issues for pCars disconnects. I was just trying to highlight how local traffic conditions can affect the gaming.

As I'm sure you'll agree, not all network equipment is made equal. Some routers have more broadcast control than others, and wifi as a whole has come on leaps and bounds over the last 2 - 3 years. There enough people posting around the forum saying enabling UDP has caused them issues and I just wanted to explain how that can be. Almost to enable them with some information. I was going to have a look at wifi features that have been implemented to protect networks against too much broadcast to see if those features are available in consumer equipment, is there anything in this space you know of?

bradleyland
23-02-2016, 17:53
Hey Bradley, thanks for the quote. I'm stuck at work at the moment, but I'm also keen to do some packet captures and stats on the UDP stream after reading this thread and I'll try to do some later.

From the sounds of the forum chat around the net it does look like there was an issue on the PSN over the weekend. This I'm sure has caused a load of issues for pCars disconnects. I was just trying to highlight how local traffic conditions can affect the gaming.

As I'm sure you'll agree, not all network equipment is made equal. Some routers have more broadcast control than others, and wifi as a whole has come on leaps and bounds over the last 2 - 3 years. There enough people posting around the forum saying enabling UDP has caused them issues and I just wanted to explain how that can be. Almost to enable them with some information. I was going to have a look at wifi features that have been implemented to protect networks against too much broadcast to see if those features are available in consumer equipment, is there anything in this space you know of?

Oooooh yeah, I agree with you in that many people are experiencing WiFi issues with UDP broadcast. Oddly enough, this is a requirement of one of the first parties (console makers). I have a couple of theories:

High-frequency Transmit Interval on Shared Medium Networks
While the bandwidth requirements aren't high, the packet transmit intervals may be causing issues for some WiFi devices. The faster UDP settings transmit at intervals below 50ms, which starts to get in to a range that can outrun latency on WiFi networks. Normally, we wouldn't expect this to be a problem, because UDP is fire and forget. There's no waiting for ACKs to screw up congestion algorithms. However, I think this may still have the ability to clog up WiFi networks. This kind of problem is common in I/O, where many small transactions can overrun an I/O system in cases where consistent throughput of similar volume wouldn't be a problem. Old shared-medium networks (Ethernet hub, 10BASE2, etc) used to have similar problems. You'd have 10 mbps of bandwidth, but a few kbps of traffic transmitted in small bits at high-frequency could cause congestion.

Throttled WiFi Transmission Rates for Broadcast Traffic
I am not terribly familiar with the various IEEE 802.11 specifications. Unfortunately, it appears that neither are many manufacturers of network equipment lol. It has been posited that not all equipment use the same implementation of transmission methods and rates for broadcast traffic on 802.11 networks. These are the questions that puzzle me:

When transmitting broadcast traffic, what rate does the AP use? In a unicast context, the AP will transmit at a rate that is negotiated between the AP and the client. This rate is easily obtained by looking at network status information for the interface on the client, and is sometimes available in a list of clients on the AP. In a broadcast scenario, the AP must send traffic to all devices, so it faces the challenge of ensuring that even the slowest device on the network will be able to receive the packets. If a network has, for example, a media center device in a remote room that is connected at a lower transmission rate, that would (in theory) cause broadcast traffic to be transmitted at that low rate. Slow WiFi rates can dip in to kbps territory. If you have a fixed size payload (as ProjectCARS generally does [with low-frequency exceptions]), slower transmission rates occupy the shared medium for a greater duration. This can pretty easily cause contention issues.

If the PS4 is on the WiFi network and transmits broadcast UDP, is that traffic visible to all clients upon transmit from the PS4, or does the AP have to re-transmit broadcast packets? If the AP has to re-transmit, this effectively doubles the bandwidth and packet rates for broadcast traffic. This could exacerbate issues related to the first question.

As far as broadcast DoS protection in consumer equipment, I don't think we're running in to anything like that. I think it's more likely a deficiency in the equipment, rather than an over-ambitions security mechanism. Consumer equipment tends to be a lowest common denominator scenario, and there's lots of chipset sharing between vendors. With enough understanding of the specification, it should be possible to identify a root cause. Unfortunately, I don't have that detailed knowledge.

Generally, I advise people to mitigate the issue by moving their PS4 to a wired connection and turning the UDP transmit rate down to a point that they can tolerate.

Aaaaand with that I've gone completely off topic for the disconnect issue. I think there's some overlap, but based on the issues I experienced this weekend, there's definitely something independent of client network issues going on. My network was rock solid during the disconnects, and disabling UDP had no effect. I was disconnected even when I was the host.

Umer Ahmad
23-02-2016, 18:00
"Generally, I advise people to mitigate the issue by moving their PS4 to a wired connection"
^this !

If connection strength/speed/stability matter then USE A WIRE !!!11one

Drill holes if necessary.

maxx69
23-02-2016, 20:34
to be fair we had some similar issues tonight - including this doozy:-

https://youtu.be/EwEJSqLytTk

Yeah I've seen this happen. I've even seen a car racing backwards and one on its roof ....keeping up with the pack as if nothing's wrong.

Boskapongen
23-02-2016, 21:29
The game has been working pretty fine monday/tuesday. None in our crew has had any major issues....

Madmazz116
24-02-2016, 09:27
The game has been working pretty fine monday/tuesday. None in our crew has had any major issues....

seems like the problem is at busy times ie the weekend....mods , SMS , is there any news at all on this problem?..any feedback at all?

Umer Ahmad
24-02-2016, 11:32
Nothing new to report.

We all see the same patterns you report (good Monday/Tuesday: bad weekend) Also i am keeping an eye on the headlines for additional hacker/DDOS attacks against XBL & PSN.

Madmazz116
24-02-2016, 16:12
ok we have a league race tonight 7.30pm , we changed from racing on a Friday due to disconnections, I'll let you know how it goes.

Madmazz116
24-02-2016, 21:54
Update on race tonight: ok we raced at 7.30 pm we had 6 racers and we had 1 disconnect, so its not limited to weekends, we also encountered a few bugs , landmine being one, (that never happened before) and we had an issue with tyres not changing and incorrect tyres being applied, so not a good a show really.

Umer Ahmad
24-02-2016, 23:51
So 83% stable connections. Pretty good i think.

I will discount the other issues as i think they are not really related to PSN connection strength. Landmine happens offline too for example.

Madmazz116
25-02-2016, 07:06
So 83% stable connections. Pretty good i think.

I will discount the other issues as i think they are not really related to PSN connection strength. Landmine happens offline too for example.

It is a good ratio Umer, but not for the player that disconnected. Ive reported the others in the relevant section.

dannydizzal
27-02-2016, 12:45
Anyone else having issues with joining lobbies ?

Boskapongen
27-02-2016, 14:19
And weekend is here so now it all starts to disconnect again..... tried 3 online races in a row, all got disconnected.

Xx-Rickdj82-Xx
27-02-2016, 14:38
Yeah it is bad today every time I try to join a lobby I don't load into it properly it shows the info from the last lobby then says I've been removed from the session usually it just says I have been returned to race central, I was host earlier and all but 3 who joined got disconnected straight away

J4M35_R
27-02-2016, 17:16
yep, same thing for me today unfortunately.

Madmazz116
27-02-2016, 17:53
MY GOD , how bad are the disconnections tonight!??.....4 times repeat 4 times ive been disconnected in the space of about 10 mins!!...really angry at this now!

D-Vibes
27-02-2016, 19:02
same here in germany, you canīt play, every five minutes you get a disconnect. the chat isnīt work.
itīs a joke from sony or what? since three weeks every weekend the same ..sh...

Col-T-Parker_
27-02-2016, 19:16
tried to play today in a private lobby, over at least 2hours did not complete a race. only me and my friend in lobby, both of us having the disconnect issue, totally unplayable online.
hope this can be solved soon as it marrs the game. will give it till April to see if it can be resolved, then will look at other new release racers.

D-Vibes
27-02-2016, 19:31
the same here

Doge
27-02-2016, 19:33
This situation is just not acceptable. Between crashes to the blue screen and DCs you just canīt play at all, period.

Dirkdiggler_52
27-02-2016, 19:43
the same here

All day been trying every hour or so but ain't no good :(

TeKnO-_-91
27-02-2016, 19:50
there seems to be alot off disconects happening on the weekend when most people are using psn, but no ones sure if its psn or the actual game that is making this happen. hopefully when psn maintanence takes place at the start of march it will fix the problem, but i wouldnt get your hopes up #who knows what the problem is? :)

TeKnO-_-91
27-02-2016, 20:06
yes, seems to be happening alot on the ps4 especially on the weekends.

ports
27-02-2016, 20:09
I've just been round my bro's he was playing black ops 3 which is p2p the same as pcars he spent 3 hours playing black ops and he never got disconnected soon as he jumped on to pcars multiplayer which is p2p as well every race he got disconnected .

Androphonomania
27-02-2016, 20:12
Yep as always. Maybe we get a free day sponsored by sony?! Wooohoo ! Forgot, there is no problem with the psn... :rolleyes:

TeKnO-_-91
27-02-2016, 20:14
so its sounding like its a problem with the actaul game not psn! pcars will never get rid of its bugs, once 1 is solved another pops up :(

Boskapongen
27-02-2016, 20:35
And weekend is here so now it all starts to disconnect again..... tried 3 online races in a row, all got disconnected.

I played on my PC instead for 6 hours stright just now, no problems at all, Guess I will go over to the "other side" then :)

Boskapongen
27-02-2016, 20:36
so its sounding like its a problem with the actaul game not psn! pcars will never get rid of its bugs, once 1 is solved another pops up :(

Strange thing is that it works almost 100% monday to late friday (CET), weekends unplayable,

Umer Ahmad
27-02-2016, 20:47
I played on my PC instead for 6 hours stright just now, no problems at all, Guess I will go over to the "other side" then :)

Me too, 3 races...no disconnects

Umer Ahmad
27-02-2016, 20:48
I've just been round my bro's he was playing black ops 3 which is p2p the same as pcars he spent 3 hours playing black ops and he never got disconnected soon as he jumped on to pcars multiplayer which is p2p as well every race he got disconnected .

Ian mentioned other racing games such as Codemaster titles which use "rebroadcasting" seem to be more sensitive to PSN problems.

Bealdor
27-02-2016, 21:13
Posts moved from sticky thread to here.

ports
27-02-2016, 21:17
Ian mentioned other racing games such as Codemaster titles which use "rebroadcasting" seem to be more sensitive to PSN problems.

I've just jumped on f1 to check it out i ran qualifying then a 10 lap race no problems / disconnects i've not tried pcars yet i will after the boxing .

Edit, I tried pcars joined 5 different lobby's and disconnected from all of them so i jumped straight on to F1 and spent the next hour racing no issues so i thought i'd give pcars ago straight after before bed but the same disconnected from 3 lobby's .

i-am-the-stig
27-02-2016, 22:00
Multiplayer is unplayable.. Why hasn't this been sorted

dannydizzal
28-02-2016, 00:22
can play BF4 no issue for hours , PCars cant join any game, ''you have been removed from session''

Raeang
28-02-2016, 04:39
I have tried to join an online race for half an hour....nothing!

Boskapongen
28-02-2016, 10:59
This is what we know so far and we (users) canīt do anything more.

1. It only affects PS4 (I have pcars all on three platforms and have tested)
2. It works mondays-thursdays, weekends does not work anymore (third weekend now, same thing).
3. Has worked 100% before, issue started approx 3 weeks ago. Our crew has 250-550 hours of gameplay.
4. Its not on users end. See 2 and 3.
5. Its most likely not the game itself, see 2 and 3. It started in mid patch time so can not be patch, see 2.
6. Find it hard to believe its PSN, coz lots of other games works flawlessly during weekends, GTA, The Crew, BF4, COD among others.

This means it must be between SMS and Sony. They must be able to read out any data what is going on during weekends.

Jthorn97
28-02-2016, 11:36
This is what we know so far and we (users) canīt do anything more.

1. It only affects PS4 (I have pcars all on three platforms and have tested)
2. It works mondays-thursdays, weekends does not work anymore (third weekend now, same thing).
3. Has worked 100% before, issue started approx 3 weeks ago. Our crew has 250-550 hours of gameplay.
4. Its not on users end. See 2 and 3.
5. Its most likely not the game itself, see 2 and 3. It started in mid patch time so can not be patch, see 2.
6. Find it hard to believe its PSN, coz lots of other games works flawlessly during weekends, GTA, The Crew, BF4, COD among others.

This means it must be between SMS and Sony. They must be able to read out any data what is going on during weekends.

F1 2015 has exactly the same problem.

ports
28-02-2016, 11:42
F1 2015 has exactly the same problem.

Not for me i played F1 last night no issues at all but soon as i try to play pcars mp i get disconnected.

Slicker_VR
28-02-2016, 12:03
we're going to try to run a 90 min race round road america tonight - it's been postponed three times already - i'll let you know how it goes

Pirategenius
28-02-2016, 13:20
At this moment in time 13.20 28/02/16 I can only see 2 MP lobbies and can not connect to either. Search settings all set to any.

dannydizzal
28-02-2016, 15:04
everyone has given up

bradleyland
28-02-2016, 15:37
This is what we know so far and we (users) canīt do anything more.

1. It only affects PS4 (I have pcars all on three platforms and have tested)
2. It works mondays-thursdays, weekends does not work anymore (third weekend now, same thing).
3. Has worked 100% before, issue started approx 3 weeks ago. Our crew has 250-550 hours of gameplay.
4. Its not on users end. See 2 and 3.
5. Its most likely not the game itself, see 2 and 3. It started in mid patch time so can not be patch, see 2.
6. Find it hard to believe its PSN, coz lots of other games works flawlessly during weekends, GTA, The Crew, BF4, COD among others.

This means it must be between SMS and Sony. They must be able to read out any data what is going on during weekends.

You should really be commended for sticking this out and all the effort you've put in observing the problem. Nice work!

I think the key to understanding the issue is in a comment Ian made earlier (maybe in a different thread) about the type of net code used by ProjectCARS. When programming a multiplayer game for PS4, you have multiple options for how you can share information between players' consoles. ProjectCARS uses one specific implementation that they suspect is affected more by PSN load, which is why you'll see the problem more on some games than on others. For example, BF4 uses centralized servers. EA/DICE run dedicated servers that host the games. ProjectCARS (on PS4) uses a "mesh" model where there is no dedicated host.

Plauzeee
28-02-2016, 15:57
This Game is actually unplayable. Nobody would buy the new dlc with these problems. Sorry SMS. Fix your problems or PC will die on ps4. I dont spent my time or my money to get fucked up every Weekend. Sorry for my broken english. Came from germany

abetterplaya
28-02-2016, 16:10
This Game is actually unplayable. Nobody would buy the new dlc with these problems. Sorry SMS. Fix your problems or PC will die on ps4. I dont spent my time or my money to get fucked up every Weekend. Sorry for my broken english. Came from germany
Game is completely unplayable on weekends. Spent 5 hours trying to play yesterday. We set up private lobbies, disconnect, joined online lobbies, disconnect. My son played COD for 4 hours straight, no disconnects. It's an issue between PSN and SMS.

i-am-the-stig
28-02-2016, 16:42
When is this going to be sorted out

schumi26
28-02-2016, 17:16
Sunday 5 PM impossible to finish a race online. 14 Drivers: qualif: 5-6 drivers disconnect.

Race: Start with 14 drivers, after 5 min. 9 drivers disconnect.

Impossible to make a championship in the condition..


"Format C:" all your servers please. It's impossible to play

Boskapongen
28-02-2016, 17:56
You should really be commended for sticking this out and all the effort you've put in observing the problem. Nice work!

I think the key to understanding the issue is in a comment Ian made earlier (maybe in a different thread) about the type of net code used by ProjectCARS. When programming a multiplayer game for PS4, you have multiple options for how you can share information between players' consoles. ProjectCARS uses one specific implementation that they suspect is affected more by PSN load, which is why you'll see the problem more on some games than on others. For example, BF4 uses centralized servers. EA/DICE run dedicated servers that host the games. ProjectCARS (on PS4) uses a "mesh" model where there is no dedicated host.


Thanx! Yes, understand the different information, servers and stuff, BUT my main point is that it has worked good until 3 weeks ago, something has happened at that point. My buddy has 500 hours before this issue. This is new.

For sure SMS can contact Sony and tell them the situation, and they can look at logs and data,

Jthorn97
28-02-2016, 18:17
It's defo the same issue with F1 2015. Something must have happened about 3 weeks ago or so.

Slicker_VR
28-02-2016, 18:37
we're going to try to run a 90 min race round road america tonight - it's been postponed three times already - i'll let you know how it goes

have to say it's not looking good at the moment - i've set up 3 rooms (on my own) and, yes, i've dc'ed three times.

question: how can it relate to 're-broadcasting' if i'm alone in the room? am i re-broadcasting my own data to myself??

Umer Ahmad
28-02-2016, 18:43
Nah. Typically how it work is you got 3 participants: A, B & C

They need to see each other so 3 connections (triangle) but lets say B & C cannot "see each other" but A can see both, so then A will rebroadcast the data packets and help re-establish the connection between B & C

There wouldnt be rebroadcasting for a lone participant.

Might be another underlying issue for your situation.

Boskapongen
28-02-2016, 19:03
Nah. Typically how it work is you got 3 participants: A, B & C

They need to see each other so 3 connections (triangle) but lets say B & C cannot "see each other" but A can see both, so then A will rebroadcast the data packets and help re-establish the connection between B & C

There wouldnt be rebroadcasting for a lone participant.

Might be another underlying issue for your situation.

Ok,good explanation, but what we all want to know is: Can and will it be fixed?

i-am-the-stig
28-02-2016, 19:46
When is it going to be fixed

bradleyland
28-02-2016, 20:16
I'm as guilty as anyone for this, but I'd encourage everyone to avoid armchair quarterbacking a root cause/solution. As much as I know about this stuff (and it's considerably more than most), I recognize that there is no way I can achieve any reasonable degree of certainty in a diagnosis. I/we simply don't have the required background knowledge and information to speak authoritatively on it.

IMO, the best thing to do is to continue to provide objective information about when you (and your leagues) experience issues. Objectively speaking, there are many people experiencing issues. SMS is faced with choosing to find a solution, or face the fact that many people will choose to avoid future titles because of a failure to deliver.

Sankyo
28-02-2016, 20:22
When is it going to be fixed
Please stop posting the same unconstructive posting multiple times in the same thread. SMS will let us know when they have more information.

Slicker_VR
28-02-2016, 22:41
as anticipated our race didn't happen, so we're moving it to thursday in the hope we might actually get it done during the week :(

schumi26
28-02-2016, 23:29
I don't understand.

June, july, August, September, october, november, december, January, all is perfect, no disconnect problem, no problem to play online the Weekend... but February impossible to play Week end (Sunday)

What happen. Reboot all servers, Reinstall your servers with a September Or october Save..... I don't know, but this can not continue like this.

Madmazz116
29-02-2016, 08:32
There wouldnt be rebroadcasting for a lone participant.

Might be another underlying issue for your situation.

This can't be the case as several people including myself have had this happen where we get disconnected hsving set up our our own rooms

Boskapongen
29-02-2016, 09:04
This can't be the case as several people including myself have had this happen where we get disconnected hsving set up our our own rooms

Same here. I create a lobby, only me there waiting for others, get disconnected before enyone enters. Happened twice this weekend.

dannydizzal
29-02-2016, 09:08
I think we need more updates on what is going on, we have no information whats so ever, and left the PS4 users frustrated. I have to get all my kit out set it up, and then its all a waste of time etc. Would be nice to have some updates or even try some work around's with Network config.

i-am-the-stig
29-02-2016, 10:19
I think we need more updates on what is going on, we have no information whats so ever, and left the PS4 users frustrated. I have to get all my kit out set it up, and then its all a waste of time etc. Would be nice to have some updates or even try some work around's with Network config.

There isn't any work around when it's a problem with programing and bad servers

Androphonomania
29-02-2016, 10:25
What pc spec Do I need to have a similar experience on the PC ?

Renoldo1990
29-02-2016, 10:26
There will be a PSN-Maintenance on 03.03.2016.
But i guess this is due to the starting Beta-Testing of the new Playstation System-software. But at least a little bit of hope.

If the problem isn't solve within this maintenance we should all group together and claim for our right to get our money of the PlaystationPlus-Membership back.
Furthermore we should contact the media. Popular Gaming-Websites etc. In Germany there aren't any reports on gaming-sites about PSN-Problems etc. Don't know how it is in other countries. But I assume Sony won't fix this issue until there is some pressure on them.

Madmazz116
29-02-2016, 12:00
If the problem isn't solve within this maintenance we should all group together and claim for our right to get our money of the PlaystationPlus-Membership back.
Furthermore we should contact the media. Popular Gaming-Websites etc. In Germany there aren't any reports on gaming-sites about PSN-Problems etc. Don't know how it is in other countries. But I assume Sony won't fix this issue until there is some pressure on them.

Im in. I tried to get this reported by teamvvv.com, I mailed them with the issue told them to take a look at this site , and asked if some pressure by the media could be put on , to get this resolved asap , but they never responded to my email, but if more do it maybe?

Just read on F1 2015 forum , codies are pressuring Sony as well to sort it out , happening big time for F1 2015

BigAlex
29-02-2016, 12:57
Yesterday it was terrible...Strange is that when trying to join a lobby the lobby information doesnīt update. It remais as the last online lobby you joined. Then the players names appear but donīt show up the cars they have chosen... Then after a while you get the so popular disconnection message. It seems either Psn or PCars donīt handle well excessive traffic hours. It seems a capacity management subject. Are the Devs aware of any capacity planning in place?

Slicker_VR
29-02-2016, 13:29
Nah. Typically how it work is you got 3 participants: A, B & C

They need to see each other so 3 connections (triangle) but lets say B & C cannot "see each other" but A can see both, so then A will rebroadcast the data packets and help re-establish the connection between B & C

There wouldnt be rebroadcasting for a lone participant.

Might be another underlying issue for your situation.

have to say, umer, i totally agree with the other comments to this response. once again, it's not just me it happens to and i take every precaution to ensure my own connection is stable (i'm on fibre broadband and my psn speed test always returns figures of around 40Mb down and 8Mb up - i have never dc'ed from network, except during ddos attacks)

Umer Ahmad
29-02-2016, 13:31
No, what I mean is there maybe other underlying problem we do not know about. Nothing wrong with your system. (i.e., there is nothing more you can do on your side)

Umer Ahmad
29-02-2016, 13:33
Yesterday it was terrible...Strange is that when trying to join a lobby the lobby information doesnīt update. It remais as the last online lobby you joined. Then the players names appear but donīt show up the cars they have chosen... Then after a while you get the so popular disconnection message. It seems either Psn or PCars donīt handle well excessive traffic hours. It seems a capacity management subject. Are the Devs aware of any capacity planning in place?

This is my thoughts also, when PSN "capacity" is reduced (weekends!) it causes problems for Project CARS.

Unfortunately the "capacity" belongs to SONY 100%. SMS has no servers for pcars on PS4/PSN.

Umer Ahmad
29-02-2016, 13:34
What pc spec Do I need to have a similar experience on the PC ?

i5 + GTX960 + 8GB RAM (assuming you're just doing 1080p resolution)

twotonetommy
29-02-2016, 14:02
I had the exact same experience yesterday. Very frustrating.


Yesterday it was terrible...Strange is that when trying to join a lobby the lobby information doesnīt update. It remais as the last online lobby you joined. Then the players names appear but donīt show up the cars they have chosen... Then after a while you get the so popular disconnection message. It seems either Psn or PCars donīt handle well excessive traffic hours. It seems a capacity management subject. Are the Devs aware of any capacity planning in place?

Madmazz116
29-02-2016, 14:21
This is my thoughts also, when PSN "capacity" is reduced (weekends!) it causes problems for Project CARS.

Unfortunately the "capacity" belongs to SONY 100%. SMS has no servers for pcars on PS4/PSN.

That maybe so , but SMS and every other developer who are suffering with this issue , need to lean on Sony big time. Not saying that SMS isnt doing that btw, its just getting so frustrating when all people want to do is play the game online. (and other games ie F1)

bradleyland
29-02-2016, 15:08
This can't be the case as several people including myself have had this happen where we get disconnected hsving set up our our own rooms


Same here. I create a lobby, only me there waiting for others, get disconnected before enyone enters. Happened twice this weekend.

Guys, keep in mind that multiplayer networking doesn't work like you think it does. Netcode isn't exactly intuitive. The information we have is that the issue appears to affect games that implement the rebroadcasting multiplayer API. That is not the same as saying rebroadcasting is causing the drops.

When you set up a multiplayer game, there's more than one type of communication occurring. For the sake of keeping this simple, let's say that the communications occur on different channels, and that we have a three players in a game. Please note that this is not exactly how the rebroadcasting multiplayer model works. I'm just trying to keep this simple for the purposes of illustration.

Channels

Host
Player A [PSN]: Talks to PSN network (provides authentication and access control).
Player A [P2P Player B]: Send/receive game data with Player B.
Player A [P2P Player C]: Send/receive game data with Player C.

Participant
Player A [PSN]: Talks to PSN network (provides authentication and access control).
Player B [P2P Player A]: Send/receive game data with Player A.
Player B [P2P Player C]: Send/receive game data with Player C.

Participant
Player A [PSN]: Talks to PSN network (provides authentication and access control).
Player C [P2P Player A]: Send/receive game data with Player A.
Player C [P2P Player B]: Send/receive game data with Player B.

So let's consider how this game can fall apart:

- One participant's network goes south. Result: the participant drops.
- The host's network goes south. Result: the host drops, and a new participant is assigned as host.
- Hosts/participants have issues communicating with PSN. Result: All participants (and host) are dropped because the clients cannot validate authentication and access control.

So the question is, what would rebroadcasting have to do with the last failure scenario? This is where things get complicated. In a central-server multiplayer environment, you can rely on the server for authentication and access control as well. You don't need a solid connection directly to PSN, because you can proxy more of this communication through the server. You can't do this with rebroadcasting, because you'd be relying on peer PS4 clients to handle that communication.

I'm going to say it again for the thousandth time, this stuff is way more complicated than you think it is. The system probably doesn't work like you think it should, and simple process of elimination won't lead to meaningful conclusions without a ton of background knowledge.

If you want a solution, focus on what is meaningful. All the sideline speculation and accusations of what can/can't be the truth is irrelevant. What matters is that a large number people still can't play online. Focus on that. If you want to build your case, build a registry of users who are dissatisfied with the state of the network performance and use that to apply leverage. Sitting around guessing at what is/isn't the problem serves no purpose.

Umer Ahmad
29-02-2016, 15:36
Anyone tried PS4 pcars today?

Madmazz116
29-02-2016, 15:38
All the sideline speculation and accusations of what can/can't be the truth is irrelevant. What matters is that a large number people still can't play online. Focus on that.

at the end of the day Ive paid for game that i should be able to play online, I dont care how its supposed to work (no offence -appreciate your explanation).
but 1. I pay for the game, 2. I have to pay to play it online against real people. So when it doesnt work i want to know why. Is it bad code, is it PSN, is it the internet?...whats going on?..I like everyone else, who pay their hard earned money want answers.

ports
29-02-2016, 15:39
Anyone tried PS4 pcars today?

I haven't myself but i was round my bro's and he's been racing for the past 2 hours and only disconnected twice so an improvement over the weekend he couldn't race at all.

Xx-Rickdj82-Xx
29-02-2016, 15:54
I've joined a few sessions with both qualification and race and I was host for a race and I've not had any disconnections today however I did see a few people getting disconnected but tbh I see that even when there has been no reported issues for online

Umer Ahmad
29-02-2016, 16:19
Thanks.

Yeah even on a "good day" there's about 10% disconnect rate. That's "normal" and within reason (people can have weak connections, play over wifi etc).

It's the "90-100%" disconnection rate that seems to be prevalent on the PSN weekends we are more focused on currently in this thread.

Madmazz116
29-02-2016, 16:27
Thanks.

Yeah even on a "good day" there's about 10% disconnect rate. That's "normal" and within reason (people can have weak connections, play over wifi etc).

It's the "90-100%" disconnection rate that seems to be prevalent on the PSN weekends we are more focused on currently in this thread.

Umer i know you must get fed up with being asked, but is there any news on this at all , even a slither of info ?..lol...thanks.

Boskapongen
29-02-2016, 17:01
I've joined a few sessions with both qualification and race and I was host for a race and I've not had any disconnections today however I did see a few people getting disconnected but tbh I see that even when there has been no reported issues for online

Weekend is over, its gonna work pretty good now until friday... facts we already know.

Umer Ahmad
29-02-2016, 17:02
No sorry man. If i had ANY news to share i would put it here for you guys.

Right now i can only suggest work-arounds: 1. Avoid weekends, 2. Shorter races, 3. Smaller field size

Probably not acceptable for most people however i do realize.

Boskapongen
29-02-2016, 19:02
Weekend is over, its gonna work pretty good now until friday... facts we already know.

Was wrong....lots of problems...no DISC. for me(YET) but I see others in lobby dropping out ....

bradleyland
29-02-2016, 19:16
at the end of the day Ive paid for game that i should be able to play online, I dont care how its supposed to work (no offence -appreciate your explanation).
but 1. I pay for the game, 2. I have to pay to play it online against real people. So when it doesnt work i want to know why. Is it bad code, is it PSN, is it the internet?...whats going on?..I like everyone else, who pay their hard earned money want answers.

Agree 100% :) That's more or less my point. All this other stuff is a sideline. When someone says, "I think it doesn't work because of XYZ," the answer is, "It doesn't really matter why." What matters is that users are able to play the game online without a significant number of disconnects.

That's why I think everyone should avoid speculating as to the cause. Not only because most are misinformed, but because it ultimately doesn't matter, and it detracts focus from the core degree of responsibility.

mister dog
29-02-2016, 20:43
Dunno if posted here already, but useful anyway:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-online-big-problems-in-weekends.342588/


http://i64.tinypic.com/1zevc61.jpg

Slicker_VR
29-02-2016, 23:08
Anyone tried PS4 pcars today?

prettygood for us tonight - host dc'ed before 1st race and we had a few lag issues in that race (not sure if the two are connected or not)

new host and lobby for 2nd race - no problems at all as far as i'm aware

edit: both races long-ish 30 -40 mins and with a full room

Umer Ahmad
01-03-2016, 00:26
Good to hear. Just in time for the epic DLC tomorrow

Madmazz116
01-03-2016, 11:15
Dunno if posted here already, but useful anyway:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-online-big-problems-in-weekends.342588/


http://i64.tinypic.com/1zevc61.jpg

See this is what I dont understand, Surely, Sony must realise now that the problem must be them, i mean how much more evidence do they need?

That link says it all

twotonetommy
01-03-2016, 18:53
Its unfortunate, I will not play Project Cars anymore because of my frustration of online play being disconnected all the time. I absolutely love this game and playing online with my friends was fantastic but until someone fixes this issue, I'm going to play something else like Driveclub.

Col-T-Parker_
01-03-2016, 21:58
I agree, I meet my work friends online at the weekend to race, but spend more time restarting lobbies than racing, its the best racing game i have ever played, until i go online.
playing off line is great, but nothing beats racing real people. I am going to persevere till April in the hope that a solution is reached, if the situation remains the same then I will try asseta corsa. I dont want to do this but I do want to race online

ramm21
01-03-2016, 22:05
I agree, I meet my work friends online at the weekend to race, but spend more time restarting lobbies than racing, its the best racing game i have ever played, until i go online.
playing off line is great, but nothing beats racing real people. I am going to persevere till April in the hope that a solution is reached, if the situation remains the same then I will try asseta corsa. I dont want to do this but I do want to race online

Just learned AC is delayed until summer. Bummer. Dirt Rally still due out in April AFAIK

Col-T-Parker_
01-03-2016, 22:33
looks like project cars has a bit more breathing space as i dont know of any other racing sims that are as good as p/cars for ps4.
thanks for update on asseta corsa.

Renoldo1990
02-03-2016, 10:10
A few guys and I contacted Sony because of the DC's because we wanted our money for the PS-Plus-Membership back.
All of us got the answer that it's the publishers fault and not Sonys. (bullshit..)

No real statements, excuses or compensations. :no:

The communication between Sony and SMS doesn't seem to be the best. Each party points the finger at each other.

Madmazz116
02-03-2016, 11:31
A few guys and I contacted Sony because of the DC's because we wanted our money for the PS-Plus-Membership back.
All of us got the answer that it's the publishers fault and not Sonys. (bullshit..)

No real statements, excuses or compensations. :no:

The communication between Sony and SMS doesn't seem to be the best. Each party points the finger at each other.

you got that far? all I got was emails about how sorry they were I couldnt connect to PSN and to port forward my router, I had 10 people from Sony reply to my problem not one of then acknowledged there was a problem their end , tried to shift the blame on me , and the Developers. Wankers.

Im getting tired of all this now...doesnt seem to be an answer in sight for this problem , I hope im wrong , i think I might just move on now.

deedub777
02-03-2016, 11:52
WEEKEND:
Tried to race on Saturday for a 2hr endurance and numerous disconnects. When the host got disconnected, I got a host migration failed message.

WEEKDAY:
Raced last night (Tuesday) in our group with 2 guys UK and two guys US. Did did numerous races with a couple leaving and rejoining lobbies. Only issue was one guy's game crashed so definitely PCars game problem there. No disconnects.

IMHO:
This is either malicious attacks (DDOS) or PCars can't cope with increased 'weekend' gamer traffic as well as other games can.


We have default 'code' in our group:

:START
IF
ProjectCarsRandomDisconnects=>3
THEN
Give up and play GTA online
Write forum post
Goto END
ELSE
Goto START
ENDIF
:END

schumi26
02-03-2016, 19:49
In France and Belgium , me and my friends , see that problem start coming over from 4PM/5PM/6PM..... Week or Weekend.

Before there are no worries of disconnection....

Madmazz116
02-03-2016, 20:45
wow, we had a race tonight 7.30pm and for the first time in weeks we didnt have one disconnect. (falls over in amazement)

Umer Ahmad
02-03-2016, 20:51
Maybe the Sony PSN "maintenance" yesterday helped? Lets see how the weekend goes.

Fre.Mo
03-03-2016, 21:23
Is the bad quality of the in game audio chat also related to the connection issues? The audio chat is like clipping or saturating for me.

Slicker_VR
04-03-2016, 11:16
Is the bad quality of the in game audio chat also related to the connection issues? The audio chat is like clipping or saturating for me.

we now insist on all drivers turning mike down to approx 1/3 in ps4 settings/devices/audio devices/adjust microphone - this reduces/eliminates the clipping

Umer Ahmad
04-03-2016, 12:13
Weekend approaching, say a prayer everyone. Hopefully the problems are behind us now.

Boskapongen
04-03-2016, 12:15
Weekend approaching, say a prayer everyone. Hopefully the problems are behind us now.

I am an atheist so you have to pray for me ;)

twotonetommy
04-03-2016, 13:47
I know we have said the disconnect issue mainly happens on the weekend when the servers are busy. That said, I played for 1.5 hours last night (Tuesday) and I had no problems. It was refreshing. Normally I am disconnecting all the time.

Col-T-Parker_
04-03-2016, 22:54
Maybe the Sony PSN "maintenance" yesterday helped? Lets see how the weekend goes.

played friday afternoon from 3.30 till 6.30,no dissconections, so fingers crossed.

Col-T-Parker_
04-03-2016, 23:16
played friday afternoon from 3.30 till 6.30,no dissconections, so fingers crossed.

have sony said if the maintenance was anything to do with these connection issues????

Madmazz116
05-03-2016, 09:44
played friday afternoon from 3.30 till 6.30,no dissconections, so fingers crossed.

Doent appear that way , two other people have reported disconnects in the main thread

Boskapongen
05-03-2016, 14:12
And its starts again :( Open lobby, disconnected in quali session. Also saw lots of other got disconnected during 5 races before that.

229229

scottm18
05-03-2016, 17:04
Starting Saturday 9am open lobby. Disconnected returning to race central messages

6 rooms in a row.
Got to 3 minute mark then add ten% chance to disconnect every 30 seconds. Until 100% chance is reached.

Everyone gets disconnected. 2 person room to 16.
I've been first to disconnect and the last person.

JurgenV
06-03-2016, 15:01
Same story as last weekend, can't start/finish a single race online. Without all the issues, it could be one of the best racing games. It's a shame.

VR-42
06-03-2016, 15:55
Still broken, sony say its a pcars issue. Pcars say its a sony issue, Someone is a liar and I think I know who it is.

Madmazz116
06-03-2016, 16:03
Still broken, sony say its a pcars issue. Pcars say its a sony issue, Someone is a liar and I think I know who it is.

Id like to know who you think it is?...this is happening not just to Pcars, F1 2015 , GT6, its only started happening since Feb...do the maths.

maxx69
06-03-2016, 16:17
Haven't had any major issues with disconnections for a week or more , the odd one or two , generally at the start of the lobby. But members just rejoin using the original invite.
When I've been racing randoms , I notice a few dissconects but that could just be down to crappy internet connection.
Everything seems pretty darn good at the moment for us .
It's not just this game that has been suffering these issues

schumi26
06-03-2016, 17:18
Sunday, In France:

3Pm to 4.30PM no problem with 3 players in lobby.

4.40PM with 15 players in lobby for us event Champ. We start for 5min. practice, no probleme. Start Qualif for 10min..... Many peoples (+6/15) disconnect, entre in lobby, disconnect, re enter lobby, disconnect....

We have recreat a lobby with other Hotest. Qualif.... Disconnect, disconnect, disconnect.....


PLease SMS, WE WANT PLAY PCARS ONLINE WITH NO NO NO DISCONNECT SUNDAY. 1 month impossible to play online.....

Umer Ahmad
06-03-2016, 17:22
Sucks to hear this. Was hoping the PSN maintenance on 1MAR would have helped

Renoldo1990
06-03-2016, 19:10
DC-Issue for a whole Month now. After the PS4-Maintenance there isn't any improvement. I have little Hope that it will be fixed in the near future.
SMS can't solve the problem. And Sony still denies that there are any issues with their servers. If you open a topic on the official PS4-Forum it will be deleted within minutes. So i can't see how this can be fixed. Our Racing-League can't take place since 07.02. and i think many drivers will move on now and don't wait till there is finally a solution.
Seems to be the End of Pcars on Playstation 4.

I'm very curious how it will be when Assetto Corsa is released and the game isn't playable online from Day-One on. I think the publishers should bring Sony to court as this is a massive loss of profit.
We normal people cannot do anything against it. The Sony Service-Center even declines to refund the money for the PS-Plus-Membership to me and at least 15+ players from our Racing-League.
It's just fraud.

GUTTER-BOY
06-03-2016, 19:11
Same here. Running League race today at noon EST and at least half (6 to 8 out of 16) got DC'd numerous times. Tried changing hosts, hardwire to router, etc. nothing worked. When everything is working correctly this game is awesome.

I know it's not all SMS' fault, and it's mainly PSN because during the week PCars runs fine, but would SMS hosted servers -vs- peer-to-peer help stabilize it even if PSN is getting a DDOS attack? I think PCars uses servers for PC. I'm not a tech guy so not sure how it all works. And PSN is quickly going to lose subscribers if they don't get their act together soon.

schumi26
06-03-2016, 19:25
PSN Maintenance, it was for Beta new firmware, No for psn server.....

Col-T-Parker_
06-03-2016, 19:31
tried to play today, sunday 6 march, first race disconnected after 10 mins of qualifying, after that was a struggle for either one of us to get past the lobby, only two in lobby and the only fun we had was guessing who would be disconnected next. gave up trying after 1 hour.
this game is now only good for off line play, but i like many other gamers buy these games to play online.
I dont know whos to blame but someone should have the gumption to own up.
if its sony good luck selling more consoles!!!!!, if its project cars good luck with project cars 2!!!!!!!
think this will be my last post on this matter as I feel it will not be solved, which is a shame as this is a brilliant racing game that I dont think i will be playing anymore.
Rgards Col T Parker

Sankyo
06-03-2016, 19:49
Still broken, sony say its a pcars issue. Pcars say its a sony issue, Someone is a liar and I think I know who it is.

I'm pretty sure that none of those accusations have actually been made. So polarizing the thread like that and using the word 'liar' isn't going to help much. The latest I know is that PSN for sure has issues, and that pCARS seems particularly sensitive to it. No finger-pointing yet I think.

weisda3
06-03-2016, 19:50
Same here...more disconnect issues today. We started our FA race today with 9 racers, all of which never had disconnect issues prior to Feb. We finished the race with 3 all having to due with disconnects. We've had to suspend the series until the issue is fixed.

SMS you guys have made a really good sim for the consoles. There were obviously a few glitches (and still are), but this disconnect issue is killing your game on PS4.

Here's what really puzzles me...? I can count on one hand how many times I was ever disconnected from a PS3 game. And until Feb I was probably disconnected 2-3 times ever from PCars on PS4. Something has changed.

GUTTER-BOY
06-03-2016, 20:15
Make a game of it like we do with our Friday night league: Everytime someone gets disconnected, take a drink. By lap 3 everyone will be so hammered no one will notice if the cars are weaving due to lagging or because the few people who haven't DC'd yet are drunk!

Renoldo1990
06-03-2016, 20:21
I'm pretty sure that none of those accusations have actually been made. So polarizing the thread like that and using the word 'liar' isn't going to help much. The latest I know is that PSN for sure has issues, and that pCARS seems particularly sensitive to it. No finger-pointing yet I think.

Sony clearly says that the issue is caused by the publishers of the game when u contact them.

Unfortunately i have only german evidence for this.


"Sehr geehrter PlayStation Kunde,

vielen Dank für Ihre E-Mail.

Sie hatten uns angeschrieben, da der Server bei Project Cars nicht störungsfrei funktioniert.
In diesem Fall wenden Sie sich an den Publisher. In diesem Fall ist das Slightly Mad Studios"

Many other guys from our racing league got a similar-sounding response by Sony. Clearly saying it's caused by SMS.
Otherwise it was said by the developers within this thread that the issues are caused by DDOS-Attacks on the PSN-Servers.

Col-T-Parker_
06-03-2016, 21:38
Sony clearly says that the issue is caused by the publishers of the game when u contact them.

Unfortunately i have only german evidence for this.



Many other guys from our racing league got a similar-sounding response by Sony. Clearly saying it's caused by SMS.
Otherwise it was said by the developers within this thread that the issues are caused by DDOS-Attacks on the PSN-Servers.

what is a DDOS-Attack

Jthorn97
06-03-2016, 23:25
Sony clearly says that the issue is caused by the publishers of the game when u contact them.

Unfortunately i have only german evidence for this.



Many other guys from our racing league got a similar-sounding response by Sony. Clearly saying it's caused by SMS.
Otherwise it was said by the developers within this thread that the issues are caused by DDOS-Attacks on the PSN-Servers.

Bullshit. F1 2015 has exactly the same issue. No updates to online has been done since beginning of december to F1 2015. The disconnection started to happen in the beginning of February.

Umer Ahmad
06-03-2016, 23:29
what is a DDOS-Attack

Hackers basically

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack

Ekay.jay
07-03-2016, 04:35
We tried running our league race earlier today. Before we even got the race started 4-5 were constantly getting disconnected. After many failed attempts we finally started the race without the ones who kept getting booted.

Renoldo1990
07-03-2016, 06:44
Bullshit. F1 2015 has exactly the same issue. No updates to online has been done since beginning of december to F1 2015. The disconnection started to happen in the beginning of February.

I know. Same for Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 and the Lobby-mode of PES 2016. I'm only mentioning the statements which have been made until now by both partys.

Ian Bell
07-03-2016, 06:47
I know. Same for Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 and the Lobby-mode of PES 2016. I'm only mentioning the statements which have been made until now by both partys.

We haven't changed our network code. I'm not apportioning blame but when something stops working as well as it did, and we do a full investigation and find we've made no changes that would affect the connection then I suggest we're not making excuses. Again, something has changed on the service that might not like the standard (fairly) 'rebroadcasting' method of doing multiplayer networking, and it's nothing to do with our publisher either.

Renoldo1990
07-03-2016, 07:10
We haven't changed our network code. I'm not apportioning blame but when something stops working as well as it did, and we do a full investigation and find we've made no changes that would affect the connection then I suggest we're not making excuses. Again, something has changed on the service that might not like the standard (fairly) 'rebroadcasting' method of doing multiplayer networking, and it's nothing to do with our publisher either.

That's exactly my opinion. Sony is making excuses by saying it's the publishers fault to their customers when they contact them and by instantly deleting every Thread on this issue on their official forum.
I would be very mad of this behavior if I'd be the publisher myself. Furthermore the fact that Sony denies that they are responsible for the current online-problems decreases my hope that the issue will be fixed in near future.

Isn't there anything the publisher can do to make Sony do their homeworks?

I mean it's a whole month now. And they haven't brought out even an official statement on this matter.
I think this is the most depressing thing on the whole affair.

Ian Bell
07-03-2016, 07:14
That's exactly my opinion. Sony is making excuses by saying it's the publishers fault to their customers when they contact them and by instantly deleting every Thread on this issue on their official forum.
I would be very mad of this behavior if I'd be the publisher myself. Furthermore the fact that Sony denies that they are responsible for the current online-problems decreases my hope that the issue will be fixed in near future.

Isn't there anything the publisher can do to make Sony do their homeworks?

I mean it's a whole month now. And they haven't brought out even an official statement on this matter.
I think this is the most depressing thing on the whole affair.

I would strongly defend Sony, if, at last check, 22 other games weren't suffering very similar issues, at very similar times. And I have the metrics and data here.

Renoldo1990
07-03-2016, 08:06
But this 22 games are using a different connection-method, aren't they?
I think Sony should be responsible to get every connection-method working. And this also includes the rebroadcasting-method used on pcars and the other affected games.

The Playstation-Network doesn't work in the main-times either. Last night i couldn't even log in to PSN.

Madmazz116
07-03-2016, 08:15
I would strongly defend Sony, if, at last check, 22 other games weren't suffering very similar issues, at very similar times. And I have the metrics and data here.

Don't take this the wrong way , I don't know what's has and what hasn't been said your end, but have you been "pressuring" Sony to get it sorted, or at least give an explanation as to why this is happening?

Boskapongen
07-03-2016, 09:30
My buddy was trying to play Sebastien Loeb rally online sunday but got disconnected every session.....

Vittorio Rapa
07-03-2016, 09:37
Don't take this the wrong way , I don't know what's has and what hasn't been said your end, but have you been "pressuring" Sony to get it sorted, or at least give an explanation as to why this is happening?

Yes, our online team is in contact with Sony and while initially (when it all started) they said no other developer were reporting online issues, only recently they admitted there might be online trouble at their side, so they started to investigate. We don't have much more details to share at the moment.

Sankyo
07-03-2016, 09:40
Sony clearly says that the issue is caused by the publishers of the game when u contact them.

Unfortunately i have only german evidence for this.

I take it that that's Sony Customer Support? SMS is talking to a different part of Sony, Customer Support usually doesn't know anything technical and cannot do any investigation themselves, so if the very basics are met (PSN not totally down) it must be the other side.

EDIT And also what Vittorio wrote above.

Madmazz116
07-03-2016, 09:44
Yes, our online team is in contact with Sony and while initially (when it all started) they said no other developer were reporting online issues, only recently they admitted there might be online trouble at their side, so they started to investigate. We don't have much more details to share at the moment.

Thank you.

BigAlex
07-03-2016, 17:54
After a reasonably large period of time, the capacity/App design (mesh) problem couldn't be isolated and solved. Maybe (probably?) there's no solution at all. It seems that Pcars has no agreed SLA with Sony that can invoked. The online game is dead on the weekends for a long time and all we can hear is silence.

Sad but it's true.

Renoldo1990
07-03-2016, 18:17
@BigAlex Like writen above. Sony has just recently (!) admitted that there is an issue. So i guess they are just beginning to work on the problem. Maybe this gives some hope that there will be a solution soon.

thehotlap
08-03-2016, 12:33
Playing with my mate online now and the gaming experience is awful with cars bouncing around all over the place. Even the chat feature, he is breaking up and hard to understand at times.

deedub777
09-03-2016, 17:55
Well, all our league races are postponed until further notice and GTA is getting boring again.

I really need something done, my wife is asking questions about why I'm in her way at weekends... She seems quite nice actually.

schumi26
09-03-2016, 20:25
Well, all our league races are postponed until further notice.



Me too for my races leagues......... :( :( :( :(

Madmazz116
10-03-2016, 07:07
Well our race last night was 7:30pm gmt , 6 of us, we had one player who could not connect to the lobby at all, and then we were all disconnected from the lobby bar one player. But after we re-started the lobby we were all able to connect and race a 15 lap race with no problems.

Renoldo1990
10-03-2016, 09:05
Is there a possibility to get a short update by the developers directly before the weekends if any improvements were made by Sony?

I think all the guys from the racing leagues mostly meet at Saturdays and Sundays online just to see that it won't be possible to hold the race again.

If it would be possible to get a short word (maybe on a friday) everybody could adjust to the situation and postpone the races early.

Maybe that would decrease the disappointments for the involved people each week.


---

By the way. Yesterday 10 people flew out of an organised Renault RS 01 Cup-Race in our forum at once (all in the same second). So it's not just about weekends.

BigAlex
11-03-2016, 03:24
Today 2 races were ruined because of disconnections. 9 Players were falling one by one... We tried to cancel the lobby and open another. Same thing happened. All of this on Thursday!

Renoldo1990
11-03-2016, 06:48
Yeah, I can confirm this. I had problems too yesterday.
It seems that the Connection-problems are getting worse and relocate more and more even to weekdays.

If you want to hold up a race atm, you need:

1) a lot of luck.
2) a time where only a few other gamers are online. Deep in the night is maybe a good choice.
3) even more luck.

Boskapongen
11-03-2016, 10:15
Thursday League, 4 out of 14 got disconnected at the exact same time, just when race was supposte to start, 1 hours practice/quali before that no problems.

Umer Ahmad
11-03-2016, 15:24
Well this is interesting (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/microsoft-may-compensate-xbox-live-users-affected-/1100-6435489/?ftag=GSS-05-10aaa0a)