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View Full Version : How exactly does brake mapping setting effect project cars gameplay.



kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 19:26
Edit brake mapping

Mahjik
18-02-2016, 19:38
Just to make sure, are you referring to the option that's on the final setup page with the fuel and other miscellaneous settings?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 19:42
If you mean the setting called "brake mapping", it's supposed to adjust the amount of engine braking (low values = more engine braking, high values = less engine braking), but as it stands it does absolutely nothing.

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 19:51
If you mean the setting called "brake mapping", it's supposed to adjust the amount of engine braking (low values = more engine braking, high values = less engine braking), but as it stands it does absolutely nothing.......yea brake mapping, it doesn't have any effect. Not even on brake temperature assuming more engine brake means the less brake you need to use?

Mahjik
18-02-2016, 19:57
......yea brake mapping, it doesn't have any effect. Not even on brake temperature assuming more engine brake means the less brake you need to use?

The principle of it is that more engine braking combined with your normal braking, will decrease your braking distance but at the expense of stability. That much braking increases the load on the front of the car, which makes the rear unloaded (and prone to oversteer and instability at turn-in).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 20:11
The principle of it is that more engine braking combined with your normal braking, will decrease your braking distance but at the expense of stability. That much braking increases the load on the front of the car, which makes the rear unloaded (and prone to oversteer and instability at turn-in).Most cars (racing cars at least) are already well capable of braking as hard as the tyres can manage, so it's not really that it increases the amount of braking (tyres stop the car, not brakes). I'd say it's more about it moving the effective brake bias backwards when you have a lot of engine braking. If you normally had 60/40 brake pressure, with engine braking the rear end would have that 40 from the brakes + XX from the engine, and could make the effective brake bias heavily rear biased.

You could compensate for this just as well by making the static brake bias more front biased to compensate for the engine braking and still get a stable car under full braking, though it'd obviously affect the off throttle behavior. Back during development when the setting actually still worked I used this extensively to tune the lift-off behavior to get cars to point in easier.

But as I said it does absolutely nothing right now, and many cars are really in need of being able to either increase or decrease the engine braking. This is one bug I'd really love to see fixed.

Roger Prynne
18-02-2016, 20:33
(tyres stop the car, not brakes)
Shouldn't that be a combination of both?

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 20:36
Glad I asked because I had a totally different idea about what it did. I thought it was a brake temp and brake wear tool

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 20:38
Shouldn't that be a combination of both?Not really. Tyres are the only thing that connects the car to the ground, and they're the only ones that can exert the force required to stop the car. The brakes only stop the wheels and by extension the tyres, but the tyres are the arbiter of how hard you can brake and how quickly you can stop.

I like to phrase in this slightly exaggerate way to hammer home the point that no matter how massively powerful your brakes are, if the tyres don't have enough grip it won't matter one iota. =)

Well obviously aerodynamic drag slows you down as well, but for the most part it's the tyres grabbing onto the ground. =)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 20:41
Glad I asked because I had a totally different idea about what it did. I thought it was a brake temp and brake wear toolIt can of course be used for that, and also it can affect fuel usage. It's essentially controlling the amount of throttle opening during engine braking, 0 means fully closed so maximum engine braking power and minimum fuel usage, while higher values mean the throttle is left slightly open and results in lower engine braking and higher fuel usage.

When it works that is, and currently it doesn't.

Umer Ahmad
18-02-2016, 20:42
Wait, that slider/feature is broken? Hah, i learn something new daily. Even 4 years into the project

Reinart86
18-02-2016, 20:42
Wow. That's the first time i here about that bug. Anything else that's not working that i don't know about. :)

Mahjik
18-02-2016, 20:43
Shouldn't that be a combination of both?

Tires are the resistance to the forward movement. In general, yes you are correct. If the braking system isn't strong enough to lock the tires, then it's not able to fully slow the car as much as the tires can take. Overall, if you want shorter braking zones stickier tires is what will give that to you.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 20:51
I've mentioned this a few times.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43747-My-current-pet-peeves-and-small-adjustment-suggestions&p=1216974&viewfull=1#post1216974

I haven't tested EVERY car, but I've tested about 20 and none showed any noticeable or measurable difference between min and max settings, including cars where the range is from 0-10. I tested it both trying out how the car behaves when lifting off mid-corner and by checking the telemetry for the engine braking power (negative torque and power in the telemetry), no differences at all. If there's a car where it actually does work then I haven't yet found it.

I'd appreciate if the mods could forward this to the devs to make sure they're aware of the issue, it's an old feature that used to work but doesn't any longer, and would be highly useful for many cars.

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 21:17
It can of course be used for that, and also it can affect fuel usage. It's essentially controlling the amount of throttle opening during engine braking, 0 means fully closed so maximum engine braking power and minimum fuel usage, while higher values mean the throttle is left slightly open and results in lower engine braking and higher fuel usage.

When it works that is, and currently it doesn't........please bare with me. Engine braking, its job isn't to add more braking. Its job is to add slight throttle to keep the car straight and stable under heavy braking. So engine brake is actually engine throttle?

smutpeddler
18-02-2016, 21:27
Wow. That's the first time i here about that bug. Anything else that's not working that i don't know about. :)

your funny

F1_Racer68
18-02-2016, 21:30
.......please bare with me. Engine braking, its job isn't to add more braking. Its job is to add slight throttle to keep the car straight and stable under heavy braking. So engine brake is actually engine throttle?

In essence, yes. As I understand it, it essentially does the job of the throttle "blip" that is applied with heel-toe braking when downshifting. Engine Brake Mapping now does this job for the driver, much like ABS does the brake modulation that drivers used to have to do themselves (and still do in some series).

madmax2069
18-02-2016, 21:35
Shouldn't that be a combination of both?

It is

if you have brakes that hardly stop it wont matter what type of tire you have, you're not going to have good stopping power.

If you have tires that have hardly any grip but have strong brakes you're going to constantly lock the tires to try to stop which results in bad stopping power.

So yes its a combination of both.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 21:46
What I was getting at with that line was that in the end it's the tyres that stop the car, since they're the only things that contact the ground. Of course you do need something to slow down the tyres as well, and usually that's the brakes (though engine braking will obviously also slow down the car).
.......please bare with me. Engine braking, its job isn't to add more braking. Its job is to add slight throttle to keep the car straight and stable under heavy braking. So engine brake is actually engine throttle?The system is there to alleviate the engine braking, yes. Depending on the internal resistances and type, size and construction of the engine it has a certain maximum amount it can brake, which often is quite a lot, enough that there's a need for a system to reduce it. That's what the brake mapping is for, to reduce the amount of engine braking to something lower than the maximum amount.

kevin kirk
18-02-2016, 21:58
fascinating stuff. I guess the cars that harvest energy thur wheels or fly wheel or what ever else they have come up with adds another element to it

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-02-2016, 22:07
Definitely, balancing the braking force from the generators with the actual brakes so that as much energy as possible is regained while the braking feel of the car remains driver friendly is a massive challenge for the teams and requires a lot of engineering to get right. It's one of the reasons why the McLaren P1 doesn't have regenerative braking at all, McLaren felt that harvesting the braking energy made the braking feel "wrong" and decided to only use traditional braking systems, harvesting the power from the gas engine.

Reinart86
18-02-2016, 22:08
you're funny

Fixed

bmanic
18-02-2016, 22:21
Wait, that slider/feature is broken? Hah, i learn something new daily. Even 4 years into the project

That thing has been broken or extremely ineffective for ages. I thought this was one of those bugs reported a long time ago, before beta even.

N0body Of The Goat
19-02-2016, 08:35
Last time I remember playing with engine braking was way back in development, when the Formula A was quite unstable at the default settings and needed to be increased a few clicks to prevent the rear axle locking up.

VR-42
28-02-2016, 10:02
Wow something else that does not work in this game!
Just add it to the list.
Perhaps we will get it in Pcars3

Slicker_VR
28-02-2016, 10:56
tbh my understanding is that brake mapping actually keeps the throttle open through the corner, in some cars this helps to stabilise the rear, and i have noticed a difference in mid-corner stability from adjusting this setting (slow corners)

Ekay.jay
28-02-2016, 12:04
tbh my understanding is that brake mapping actually keeps the throttle open through the corner, in some cars this helps to stabilise the rear, and i have noticed a difference in mid-corner stability from adjusting this setting (slow corners)

This was my understanding. I know if I run low brake mapping I tend to get bad lift off oversteer..

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
28-02-2016, 13:08
Could you tell me what cars you have noticed this with? I've tried about two dozen of them so far and could get no measurable or noticeable effect with the slider.

VR-42
28-02-2016, 13:45
Could you tell me what cars you have noticed this with? I've tried about two dozen of them so far and could get no measurable or noticeable effect with the slider.

I see you are on a pc pehaps it works on the ps4?

Ekay.jay
28-02-2016, 14:19
Could you tell me what cars you have noticed this with? I've tried about two dozen of them so far and could get no measurable or noticeable effect with the slider.


Both the BMW Z4 and BMW m3 GT

Im on ps4, and I can tell you it absolutely makes a difference where you have the brake mapping.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
28-02-2016, 14:40
I see you are on a pc pehaps it works on the ps4?


Both the BMW Z4 and BMW m3 GT

Im on ps4, and I can tell you it absolutely makes a difference where you have the brake mapping.Hmm, could be due to the PS4 indeed. Worth a shot. Could you two do me a favor and test the following:

Go to the Test Track in the Z4 GT3 (assuming you have it), and there to the drag strip. Set the car to use minimum value for the brake mapping, drive in 3rd goes all the way to the limiter with the Telemetry HUD mode turned on. Then lift off the throttle and keep an eye on the Power figure in the telemetry. Write down the highest negative value it reaches when you lift off of the throttle. Then repeat the test with the brake mapping set to maximum value. Then post the figures here.

kevin kirk
28-02-2016, 15:11
I can slightly tell a difference on xbox one with gt3 and lmps. So slightly its hard to tell if its something I'm doing different or the car is different.

Ekay.jay
28-02-2016, 15:33
I was getting -168 -101 no matter what I set the brake mapping too.

Panopticism
28-02-2016, 17:30
Brake mapping does not work on PS4. I have both PS4 and PC versions, and brake mapping is equally non-functional on both.

I haven't tried tuning every car, or even a majority of the cars, so there is a reasonable chance that there is a class of cars for which the setting does work.

Outlaw Peet
28-02-2016, 17:53
Brake mapping does not work on PS4. I have both PS4 and PC versions, and brake mapping is equally non-functional on both.

I haven't tried tuning every car, or even a majority of the cars, so there is a reasonable chance that there is a class of cars for which the setting does work.

What your opinion is is that it does work on PS4 but not on all cars. Sounds different does it.

Panopticism
28-02-2016, 18:41
What your opinion is is that it does work on PS4 but not on all cars. Sounds different does it.

No. My opinion is that it probably doesn't work at all on any car on any platform.

I am just saying that I haven't tried it on all or even a majority of the cars, so I am not willing to risk the hypothesis that the brake mapping setting definitely does not work on at least one car on at least one platform.

MarleyMoo
29-02-2016, 00:27
Wow, I was never sure it wasn't working. I could definitely use some more brake mapping for braking and heavy downshifting over crests in the Aston Martin GT4. At Sakitto I tend to use a more rear-ish brake bias due to the tight curves, but braking over that crest just kills me if I also want to downshift.

BTW, motorcycles have slipper clutches for the same purpose.

Ixoye56
29-02-2016, 05:01
The Yellow Bird is another car that i wish this option has worked on.

DreamsKnight
01-03-2016, 00:49
Hmm, could be due to the PS4 indeed. Worth a shot. Could you two do me a favor and test the following:

Go to the Test Track in the Z4 GT3 (assuming you have it), and there to the drag strip. Set the car to use minimum value for the brake mapping, drive in 3rd goes all the way to the limiter with the Telemetry HUD mode turned on. Then lift off the throttle and keep an eye on the Power figure in the telemetry. Write down the highest negative value it reaches when you lift off of the throttle. Then repeat the test with the brake mapping set to maximum value. Then post the figures here.

If you use and old car like BMW 320, zakkspeed or m1, if you do a downshift in a wrong way you have oversteer and I call it engine braking. I usually use the clutch to adjust it, exactly like I do in real life. The slide do its work.

In straight line, in a car with autoclutch and only lifting off I think the effect is almost negligible.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
01-03-2016, 07:27
If you use and old car like BMW 320, zakkspeed or m1, if you do a downshift in a wrong way you have oversteer and I call it engine braking. I usually use the clutch to adjust it, exactly like I do in real life. The slide do its work.

In straight line, in a car with autoclutch and only lifting off I think the effect is almost negligible.The difference should still be measurable, higher amount of engine braking causing more negative torque/power.