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View Full Version : 1988 McClaren MP4/4 or similar mods?



CreamyDischarge
21-02-2016, 02:06
I've just driven around classic Hock, in the MP4/4 released today for Assetto Corsa. And... Well... It was incredible!

Will we EVER see mods like this come to PCars, or even a legit classic F1 (FA) style DLC?

I enjoy PCars, I just wish it was open to mods like AC is. AC is producing some of the most sensational moments in my sim racing experiences.

So my question:
Will SMS ever consider open the game up more to modders, to keep interest over the years?
Will SMS perhaps add classic F1 (FA) DLC?

Will modders consider adding cars like this to the game, or porting them over?
Can cars be ported to PCars in the same sense that cars can be ported rot AC?

Shinzah
21-02-2016, 02:16
I've just driven around classic Hock, in the MP4/4 released today for Assetto Corsa. And... Well... It was incredible!

Will we EVER see mods like this come to PCars, or even a legit classic F1 (FA) style DLC?

I enjoy PCars, I just wish it was open to mods like AC is. AC is producing some of the most sensational moments in my sim racing experiences.

So my question:
Will SMS ever consider open the game up more to modders, to keep interest over the years?
Will SMS perhaps add classic F1 (FA) DLC?

Will modders consider adding cars like this to the game, or porting them over?
Can cars be ported to PCars in the same sense that cars can be ported rot AC?

....Modders are already in the process of adding cars to Pcars...

There's already a very high quality 2015 R8 LMS mod :\

CreamyDischarge
21-02-2016, 02:28
....Modders are already in the process of adding cars to Pcars...

There's already a very high quality 2015 R8 LMS mod :\

Yea, I know. But there have only ever been 2 cars added to PCars via external mods, and they were both variations of cars already in the game.

Yet there have been literally hundreds created and/or ported to AC as its so easily done.

My point was/is will we see cars like this in PCars via ports etc, will SMS open the game up to mods like AC or are we still having to use unlockers to activate mods etc..

Cheesenium
21-02-2016, 03:16
SMS wont open up the game for modding because the game isnt designed from ground up to be mod friendly. Similarly for R3E and AMS despite all are based on ISI Motor that was the engine used for rfactor.

AC had hundreds of mods but the problem with it is, there are only a handful are good. Mak Corp did really well with MP4/4 while there are literally dozens of really awful open wheel mods out there.

I still rather see SMS add these content via official DLC than depending on modders.

Shinzah
21-02-2016, 03:37
Yea, I know. But there have only ever been 2 cars added to PCars via external mods, and they were both variations of cars already in the game.

Yet there have been literally hundreds created and/or ported to AC as its so easily done.

My point was/is will we see cars like this in PCars via ports etc, will SMS open the game up to mods like AC or are we still having to use unlockers to activate mods etc..

I have to side with Cheesenium above. 90-95% of mods I've driven in simulators have been absolutely trash. Some of the cars I've driven in reality are modded in ways that they feel nowhere near accurate at all, and as someone who also has worked and continues to work in creating graphics assets - Maybe a half of a percent of the models modders use are legally theirs to use in the first place. Many models are stolen from other sources or authors, or ripped from other titles.

This is a nightmare for developers and for car manufacturers and as Pcars is a multi-platform title, SMS probably wants to keep solid relationships with manufacturers and many of them will not, or will charge exuberantly for licensing fees if they know the platform is moddable.

Will you see hundreds of car mods for Pcars? No. Probably not. But when a nickle on the dollar are even worth driving to someone remotely interested in simulation - that's a good thing. Not having an easily moddable platform means that those who do make the effort will put in much more diligent work in their creations opposed to ripping off someone elses model and some physics that don't represent the car at all and flogging it up on some site with a few dozen of the same clones.

Also, the 2015 R8 LMS is next to nothing like the one SMS created. The cars leap from 2014 to 2015 and 2016 was massive in technology and driving style.

Otherworld
21-02-2016, 09:49
I have to side with Cheesenium above. 90-95% of mods I've driven in simulators have been absolutely trash. Some of the cars I've driven in reality are modded in ways that they feel nowhere near accurate at all, and as someone who also has worked and continues to work in creating graphics assets - Maybe a half of a percent of the models modders use are legally theirs to use in the first place. Many models are stolen from other sources or authors, or ripped from other titles.

This is a nightmare for developers and for car manufacturers and as Pcars is a multi-platform title, SMS probably wants to keep solid relationships with manufacturers and many of them will not, or will charge exuberantly for licensing fees if they know the platform is moddable.

Will you see hundreds of car mods for Pcars? No. Probably not. But when a nickle on the dollar are even worth driving to someone remotely interested in simulation - that's a good thing. Not having an easily moddable platform means that those who do make the effort will put in much more diligent work in their creations opposed to ripping off someone elses model and some physics that don't represent the car at all and flogging it up on some site with a few dozen of the same clones.

Also, the 2015 R8 LMS is next to nothing like the one SMS created. The cars leap from 2014 to 2015 and 2016 was massive in technology and driving style.
I'm sorry, but the "let's make it hard to mod so that the only mods created are real quality stuff" reasoning is ridiculous. First because despite that, you can already find "trash mods" (new cars with stolen model and bad physics) out there. Secondly because it also make it unnecessarily harder to make good mods, as evidenced by the fact that it took 9 fucking months (!) to get an easy-to-use Custom Liveries + Custom Grid tool. That is very bad for the modding scene in pCars, and the reason why there is only one top-quality modding team in pCars atm, and while I love their work I have a hard figuring out why they went for pCars instead of AC or another sim (as they say themselves on their site : "We're setting out to the pretty much impossible at the moment. Create new content for free for Project CARS."). Thirdly because I don't the issue with having a lot of shit mods and a few good ones : that's the law of the market, eventually people only play the good mods. Finally because by making modding hard SMS is alienating the PC users, and since pCars doesn't nearly have the size, fundings, and legitimacy to compete in the GT/Forza category, this is a bad decision to make (just look at all the comments on RaceDepartment when something pCars-related is released).

I think it'd be nice to get real and just admit that the reason pCars is so hard to mod is the consequence of a voluntary and rational decision by the devs, who wanted to make it impossible to mod. As expected, no game is impossible to mod.

T0MMY
21-02-2016, 10:42
I think getting it to be as mod friendly as AC needs a whole engine rewrite, the one pCARS has now works just fine and I don't think pCARS need mods as much as AC when it first released. Getting an engine like this at this stage to be moddable is not really possible or financially possible as well, Saints Row IV was announced to have SDK and be moddable but the game engine was designed to be not moddable in the first place. Almost 2 years since the game release, the only modding tool the dev manage to push out is replacing existing in game gun models.

It is nice to have mods but finding good mods alone is a problem, having them kept updated and not conflict to each other is another fuss. I still remember the boring nights I have to test each and every mod I downloaded for Skyrim just hoping it doesn't screw up the whole thing. Being able to mod is just a nice option to have, it won't break the game if it doesn't have mods.

Having it hard to mod won't really stop people, SHIFT 2 uses the same engine and it has a huge pile of poor mods and only a small amount of decent ones.

speedracer1893
21-02-2016, 11:13
I think 95% of the so-called "mods" in Assetto Corsa are any conversations. But no real mods. All driving is similar.
In Project Cars is mostly about selling licenses. I think WMD does not want an open modding culture. You can see that already in mind that you only have 1 Cutomer Skins per car. With the Audi R8 LMS Mod but you can see that it is possible to add more skins.
The McLaren and Senna rights have been granted exclusive.

T0MMY
21-02-2016, 11:33
I think 95% of the so-called "mods" in Assetto Corsa are any conversations. But no real mods. All driving is similar.
In Project Cars is mostly about selling licenses. I think WMD does not want an open modding culture. You can see that already in mind that you only have 1 Cutomer Skins per car. With the Audi R8 LMS Mod but you can see that it is possible to add more skins.
The McLaren and Senna rights have been granted exclusive.

Having multiple custom skins was one of the feature that was discussed and planned for pCARS 1 post release but probably something happened (like custom championships) and it never came back.

Cheesenium
21-02-2016, 12:08
I think it'd be nice to get real and just admit that the reason pCars is so hard to mod is the consequence of a voluntary and rational decision by the devs, who wanted to make it impossible to mod. As expected, no game is impossible to mod.

SMS first started as a modding team so why would they want to prevent modding when modding is part of what "trained" them into professional developers? If they are preventing modding, they wouldnt have release UDP streaming for apps or close off the "loop holes" that allowed custom grid and custom liveries which they did nothing about it. Heck, even in the R8GT3 thread, Ian Bell did said that they do not mind modding but they will not support it because of lack of resources to create the tools and expose the codes for modding. I dont know where did you get that SMS deliberately discourage modding.

We, WMD, we wanted modding since day 1 where both SMS and WMD had agreed on that we wont get modding as the engine needs an overhaul to officially support modding. Modding isnt only open up the code and let anyone tweak it, you need to create tools and expose internal workings of an engine to allow it to happen that will take money and man power to do so. In the mean time, obtain the license or permission to release some of their licensed developer tools(like Scaleform in some games) to the public. At the end, it is more of a matter of lack of time to do so than SMS disallow modding. AC made some good decisions in their engine by building it moddable from ground up but not every developer could do the same to their engine.

Heck, even games like AMS and R3E that shares the core customisable engine as rfactor and pcars did not officially support modding. R3E is literally impossible to mod till now while AMS is dropping official modding as they are updating some core engine functionalities that will close off modding.

Modding is a nice to have feature that adds longevity, I wont count on it for more consistent content as most mods never made up to release or they are poor quality as developing a car is a lot more complicated than it was 10 years ago. AC has a lot of good mods, there are even more mods that are either dead such as Ginetta G55 GT4 and Honda NSX or they take ages to release such as Mazda 787B, Nissan Primera BTCC or Camaro GT3. I bought AC since early access, the amount of mods I am still using now are extremely little because most of them are awful or rarely updated. More importantly, even a lot of the high quality mods isnt even close to the quality of official content by Kunos because most modders does not have access to the manufacturer data to the point that MP4/4 is literally a creative expression of that car due to lack of actual data.

CreamyDischarge
21-02-2016, 12:25
Having multiple custom skins was one of the feature that was discussed and planned for pCARS 1 post release but probably something happened (like custom championships) and it never came back.

A lot of polarising and interesting points all round on the topic.
I disagree with whoever said 95% of mods are rubbish, I have a lot of cars in AC that are modded and they are incredible quality.

Even some track mods are as good (if not better) than some of the official content. I would say that about 50% of the mods I try, I keep, as they exceed or matched the included content quality levels.

I suppose it depends on where you get your content from, I go only to the known reputable resources and therefore perhaps have no visibility of the lesser quality mods.

Then there is the Audi argument that it's nothing like the included car, and the Zonda that was ripped from NFS Shift was like new xperiences?... Well, I disagree.

Both these mods were good, but they feel very similar to the other vehicles in the game. Yes it's slightly different, but they drive very similar indeed (imo)

Then let's look at the variety of content available in AC.
Yes, I agree some of it is awful, but let's focus on the modding teams who are respected for creating high quality content.

In fact, Let's even look at lesser known groups, they too can create some fantastic content.

When I drove the MP4/4 I was astounded at the level of detail, the tyre textures, the handling etc were all sublime. Driving that car, on a modded donning park today had me feeling sensations I hadn't felt in a long time in sim racing ... FUN! Euphoria! and a healthy does of the giggles :)

I was just thrashing the car around this incredible track, having fun, laughing, racing, smiling, truly really extatic with joy at how awesome it was.

AC can feel sterile at time, but the modders can help give the game a bit of life (imo)

Project cars is a great game, but it can be frustrating, bugs, disconnections, a poor online public ramming community, a lot of negativity around the game, users, SMS in general and what appears to be less forum activity almost everywhere as the defenders are rather aggressive in their approach (moderators included)

The problem with that is, the game is great when it works..

SMS are abandoning PCars 1.0.for PCars 2... So why not open it up in the next update and let the modders in.

If we don't see PCars 2 until 2017 and get no further support for PCars 1 and its left in the current state, I see SMS (and users) suffering. Just say, sorry for the errors we made this time, but we are opening it up as a sandbox fir you all to enjoy while we correct all that :)

I'd like to play the game for another 12 months (with some fun modded content) while we await for PCars 2.

But I suspect That won't happen, and I'll get that fix in AC. Which is a shame imo.

It would be great if we could enjoy more modded content, create a positive buzz around at least 1 aspect of the game, and get some more people on board. But alas I think AC are the only ones who will scratch that itch for us.

If any modders are able to port the MP4/4 into PCars, I would love to see that move forward, if SMS can get licence officially or make a FA style copy of the car, then great, as it's an incredible drive and would be an asset to PCars on the historic tracks! :)

Cheesenium
21-02-2016, 12:45
SMS are abandoning PCars 1.0.for PCars 2... So why not open it up in the next update and let the modders in.



Because allowing modding isnt as easy as changing a 0 to 1.

AC build their engine to support modding from ground up while there are plenty of games out there, AMS, R3E, pcars, all Codemasters games and so on does not support modding. SMS wants to allow modding, they just cant open up the source code and let you mod.

I still stay by 95% of the mods out there are rubbish while not all scratch made mods in AC are remotely good, like the NSX mod drives horribly to the point it feels like it cant even turn properly with no update to the physics after a year. If not, you'll have mods that isnt made to pair with the content in the game such as 787B mod that will trash Kunos's C9 as C9 uses low down force package and 787B uses high downforce package that both can barely race with each other. Even paid mods such as URD's DTM, GTE and LMP packs still drives comparably worse than Kunos's cars. Or you'll get dramas with modders like changingcar all the sudden pulling then stopped updating his Formula Corsa mods from AC because someone disagree with him. Those ripped mods, most of them are horrible where they couldnt even get the shaders right or the suspension height correct, let alone attempting to get the physics decent.

Even a lot of mod tracks are lacking of the micro bumps that official tracks has. Paul Ricard is a good track, it still feels flat compared to Kunos's track. Then, majority of the tracks in AC are converted from rFactor 1 with outdated visuals and legacy track mesh that felt extremely flat.

It is awesome if you want to pad the game with as much content as possible but if you want to get mods that are on par with official content, AC mod community doesnt have many that are as good as Kunos's work, especially their recent work that is even more refined than the content in the core game.

T0MMY
21-02-2016, 12:45
It is more on how you judge a mod to be "good quality", I remember trying a Mazda MX5 mod for AC and the car doesn't even have lods which make it unplayable with AI in the car. Then there is the Nissan 240SX mod which is very modelled very nicely but the car lack of rim blur and spoil my experience when I watching replay after a good race or using the photo mode. There was also a Countach mod which runs poorly for me as well, good thing an official one is released. There are some doesn't even look right in game, like it lacks of AO or uses wrong material. The NSX mod had physics that feels odd and feels very understeer despite having very nice car model, heard the mod doesn't work without tweaks either.

The last time I have any AC mods was Nissan Primera and Camaro GT3, there were good open wheel mods that I can't remember since I hardly use them. As for tracks, the only one I used were Paul Ricard and a V8 Supercar track (Barbagallo or something). These days I have my game free of mods, I like the consistency of official products and having all 3 DLC in game has sufficient content.

The only time I think a game need mods when it lacks content, like AC when it first left early access. Now both AC and pCARS has sufficient amount of content to keep me occupied, having mods is good but I doubt I need them to keep me interested in the game.

Shinzah
21-02-2016, 14:24
I'm sorry, but the "let's make it hard to mod so that the only mods created are real quality stuff" reasoning is ridiculous. First because despite that, you can already find "trash mods" (new cars with stolen model and bad physics) out there.
I'm sorry but you can't find literally thousands of them. Point hence.


Secondly because it also make it unnecessarily harder to make good mods, as evidenced by the fact that it took 9 fucking months (!) to get an easy-to-use Custom Liveries + Custom Grid tool. That is very bad for the modding scene in pCars, and the reason why there is only one top-quality modding team in pCars atm, and while I love their work I have a hard figuring out why they went for pCars instead of AC or another sim (as they say themselves on their site : "We're setting out to the pretty much impossible at the moment. Create new content for free for Project CARS.").

Because they wanted to? Because that was my point? Oh no, it took too long for a mod/app, cry cry cry. You still "Fucking" got it.



Thirdly because I don't the issue with having a lot of shit mods and a few good ones : that's the law of the market, eventually people only play the good mods.

This is a lie that can be proven wrong incredibly easily, as many terrible mods have very large and active userbases.



Finally because by making modding hard SMS is alienating the PC users, and since pCars doesn't nearly have the size, fundings, and legitimacy to compete in the GT/Forza category, this is a bad decision to make (just look at all the comments on RaceDepartment when something pCars-related is released).


You wot? Alienating PC users? The platform the game was developed on was PC, the userbase with the least amount of issues are the PC users. And how can having literally the same actual content alienate anyone? Modding LITERALLY ALIENATES PC FROM THE CONSOLES.



I think it'd be nice to get real and just admit that the reason pCars is so hard to mod is the consequence of a voluntary and rational decision by the devs, who wanted to make it impossible to mod. As expected, no game is impossible to mod.

I'm not going to agree with Cheesenium here, except to say that he's right about SMS - They started modding and didn't want to nor never stated that they wanted to make modding "impossible".

We held a vote at WMD, which gold names should know about. Ultimately resulting SMS conceding to the direction WMD wanted to go with the game, and that was to not release modding tools for it. We decided as a community that we preferred to have official content created by SMS and not the usual mess that is the modding community. I'm sorry you decided to not be active on that day.

Given how many modders during development and now post release think it's okay to rip off the work of SMS staff and make some of the most horrifyingly bad AC mods, I think them not participating in modding this game is a bonus.