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guntag
25-02-2016, 11:34
On the TM home page the T500 ist specified with 150mNm at 3000 rpm with 65W, but for the T300 I could not find any torque Info.
The T300 has an Hengdrive Motor labeled B4260M-S03.The power supply of the T300 can drive 2A /24V.
http://en.hengdrive.com/Products/gameracingwheelmotor.html
If I transfer the power supply current into the spec.sheet I get an torque of 50mNm, which generates with an gear ratio of 15:1 (measured) torque of 0,75Nm.
The T500 has an Buehler Motor labeled 1130442xx (51x88mm).
http://www.buehlermotor.de/DE/Produkte
The power supply can drive 6,7A.
The rated current for 65W on 24V is 2,7A .Transferring that current into the diagram gets about 150mNm, same as specified and with an gear ratio of 16:1 (measured) 2,5 Nm.
So if am right, the T500 is more than 3 times stronger than the T300 ?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 13:09
No, the difference isn't nearly that big. The T500 is slightly more powerful and has a bit more torque, but the T300 gets close, and is a lot smoother overall (cogging effect is lower etc.).

bradleyland
25-02-2016, 13:10
I have no idea what the difference in maximum force is between the two, but I do know that if I ran my T300 at maximum force, my arms would fall off after about 20 minutes of driving, and I don't have tiny stick arms. I'm at the gym four times a week.

Unless you're one of those people that prefers wheel force that can break your wrists, I wouldn't sweat the difference. I learned to drive in a 1973 Ford F150 pickup truck with manual steering, and that thing required less force than my T300 with the FFB turned up.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 13:14
I have no idea what the difference in maximum force is between the two, but I do know that if I ran my T300 at maximum force, my arms would fall off after about 20 minutes of driving, and I don't have tiny stick arms. I'm at the gym four times a week.I on the other hand haven't been to the gym in years and overall am more technical than powerful, and when I race I normally do at least 1.5 hour races with the wheel set to max power (T500). Even the CSW V2 at full force isn't strong enough to really fight an average strength human (I say this as a below average strength one).

That's not saying that wheels should always be set to provide the maximum amount of force in every turn, in fact I prefer setting them up per car type (road cars with proper power steering I set to quite light, racing cars that are meant to have heavy steering at high downforce loads I set up as heavy). IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm. The torque measured at the wheel of a Champcar could easily reach 15-20 Nm. That's why the direct drive servo wheels are so powerful.

Also it's not just about whether or not the peak power is strong enough. The best situation is when you can set up your wheel such that the average forces you get while cornering are somewhere around 50-70% FFB signal level, so that you have 30-50% of headroom for the harder signals you run into when hitting bumps etc. without clipping. And some cars have very dynamic forces. Some of the open-wheelers produce VERY strong FFB signals at high aero loads, so with normal consumer wheels you have to select between having the wheel be very light at low speeds and getting to use the full power of the wheel at high speeds, or having it nice at low speeds and then clip the signal constantly at high speeds...

guntag
25-02-2016, 14:27
IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm.

Do you have an link of that measurement or respectively say me what wrong in my calculation.
Thrustmaster specifies the T500 at 150mNm and gear ratio is 16:1.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 14:40
Sorry but no, I don't have it. It was done by someone rigging up a lever and weights to the wheel, seeing how much weight the wheel could hold steady at full power, so it was measuring stall torque, which can be totally different from the torque at 3000 rpm that Thrustmaster gives.

bradleyland
25-02-2016, 15:50
I on the other hand haven't been to the gym in years and overall am more technical than powerful, and when I race I normally do at least 1.5 hour races with the wheel set to max power (T500). Even the CSW V2 at full force isn't strong enough to really fight an average strength human (I say this as a below average strength one).

That's not saying that wheels should always be set to provide the maximum amount of force in every turn, in fact I prefer setting them up per car type (road cars with proper power steering I set to quite light, racing cars that are meant to have heavy steering at high downforce loads I set up as heavy). IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm. The torque measured at the wheel of a Champcar could easily reach 15-20 Nm. That's why the direct drive servo wheels are so powerful.

Also it's not just about whether or not the peak power is strong enough. The best situation is when you can set up your wheel such that the average forces you get while cornering are somewhere around 50-70% FFB signal level, so that you have 30-50% of headroom for the harder signals you run into when hitting bumps etc. without clipping. And some cars have very dynamic forces. Some of the open-wheelers produce VERY strong FFB signals at high aero loads, so with normal consumer wheels you have to select between having the wheel be very light at low speeds and getting to use the full power of the wheel at high speeds, or having it nice at low speeds and then clip the signal constantly at high speeds...

When you say "wheel set to max power", that requires a little clarification. I run my FFB at 100, but I customize each car's FFB levels, so that doesn't necessarily mean maximum torque output. I still don't understand how anyone could operate one of these wheels at maximum torque output for extended periods of time. They're very strong.

I would say the greatest benefit of a high-torque wheel is the dynamic range. I don't race open wheel much (if at all), which is probably why I'm able to overlook this so easily. Even with my relatively light settings, a Formula A car's steering feedback at full chat is really firm. There's also the matter of properly conveying peak feedback conditions like curb hits. If your FFB is tuned incorrectly, or if your wheel's dynamic range is too small, you won't feel important events that are occurring at the tires. So I can see where someone would want a higher torque wheel.

I just think that people often focus a bit too much on the raw specification of something, just for the sake of being able to say that they have a greater specification. I'd caution the OP against that, but wouldn't go so far as to say he should choose one over the other. That will be dictated by preference. I haven't used a T500 personally, but when I researched wheels, I learned that the T300 had brushless motors, which resulted in smoother force delivery. That took priority (for me) over raw torque. Everyone has to make that evaluation on their own.

guntag
25-02-2016, 15:50
In the case of the T500 it could be. The power supply can drive 6,7A. At that current torque is about 330mNm accordingly with the gear ratio about 5-6Nm.The T300 power supply however can only drive 2A current.

Awong124
25-02-2016, 15:57
I have no idea what the difference in maximum force is between the two, but I do know that if I ran my T300 at maximum force, my arms would fall off after about 20 minutes of driving, and I don't have tiny stick arms. I'm at the gym four times a week.

Unless you're one of those people that prefers wheel force that can break your wrists, I wouldn't sweat the difference. I learned to drive in a 1973 Ford F150 pickup truck with manual steering, and that thing required less force than my T300 with the FFB turned up.

Yeah, I don't think the average person would be running a T300 at full force. That would be insane. The T300 at full force is fully capable of causing injury, I'm not kidding. I probably run the T300 at about half of the maximum torque it is capable of putting out. I used the T300 on The Crew, and if I go off road I have to turn the FFB down to 25%, because wheel jerking around is so violent.

Pamellaaa
25-02-2016, 16:25
I am leaning towards Jussi's side on this one, I have a T500 and run FFB and Tyre Force as high as I can go without clipping (100 and 95 respectively I think) and regularly do 90+ minute races without issue. After a particularly strenuous race I might have a slight ache in my forearms but thats it really, I would have thought any injuries would be limited to a damaged thumb if you were really unlucky or did something stupid.

Awong124
25-02-2016, 16:44
I am leaning towards Jussi's side on this one, I have a T500 and run FFB and Tyre Force as high as I can go without clipping (100 and 95 respectively I think) and regularly do 90+ minute races without issue. After a particularly strenuous race I might have a slight ache in my forearms but thats it really, I would have thought any injuries would be limited to a damaged thumb if you were really unlucky or did something stupid.

Just because you're running 100 FFB and 100 tire force in the game doesn't mean the wheel is even close to producing its maximum output torque. Even if it shows clipping, I don't think that's the maximum force the wheel can produce. Try ignoring what the graph shows as clipping, and set FFB and tire force both to 200, then go to one of the cars and set the FFB Master to the max, and Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz all to max and see what the wheel does. And since you're on PC, set full force on the profiler as well.

Pamellaaa
25-02-2016, 17:05
Just because you're running 100 FFB and 100 tire force in the game doesn't mean the wheel is even close to producing its maximum output torque. Even if it shows clipping, I don't think that's the maximum force the wheel can produce. Try ignoring what the graph shows as clipping, and set FFB and tire force both to 200, then go to one of the cars and set the FFB Master to the max, and Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz all to max and see what the wheel does. And since you're on PC, set full force on the profiler as well.

I have TM Control Panel set to 100% anyway, those settings just sound like a way to make a car feel horribly heavy and give no feedback at all.

Awong124
25-02-2016, 17:09
I have TM Control Panel set to 100% anyway, those settings just sound like a way to make a car feel horribly heavy and give no feedback at all.

Exactly. That's what it would feel like if the wheel was outputting full torque.

Pamellaaa
25-02-2016, 17:17
Exactly. That's what it would feel like if the wheel was outputting full torque.

Yeah, full torque 100% of the time but that isn't realistic and no-one is looking for that experience, the wheel should (I think, someone more knowledgeable can hopefully confirm) still get to peak torque when clipping if everything is set to 100.

spacepadrille
25-02-2016, 18:29
Just because you're running 100 FFB and 100 tire force in the game doesn't mean the wheel is even close to producing its maximum output torque. Even if it shows clipping, I don't think that's the maximum force the wheel can produce. Try ignoring what the graph shows as clipping, and set FFB and tire force both to 200, then go to one of the cars and set the FFB Master to the max, and Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz all to max and see what the wheel does. And since you're on PC, set full force on the profiler as well.

isn't it the best way to ruin a wheel ?

Awong124
25-02-2016, 18:32
isn't it the best way to ruin a wheel ?

Probably, but it probably won't hurt for a quick test.

spacepadrille
25-02-2016, 18:37
I'm not so sure. I ran too high FFB (but not heretic one, just a little too high) during some days, and my T300 was damaged (Thrustmaster support gave me a new one ;-). I think that if you do what you said, your wheel can be definitely damaged quickly.

Awong124
25-02-2016, 18:44
I'm not so sure. I ran too high FFB (but not heretic one, just a little too high) during some days, and my T300 was damaged (Thrustmaster support gave me a new one ;-). I think that if you do what you said, your wheel can be definitely damaged quickly.

That might be an anomaly in your case. I can't imagine TM would put a design into production that had such a low safety factor that the wheel would break if you used maximum output for a minute.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 19:22
When you say "wheel set to max power", that requires a little clarification. I run my FFB at 100, but I customize each car's FFB levels, so that doesn't necessarily mean maximum torque output. I still don't understand how anyone could operate one of these wheels at maximum torque output for extended periods of time. They're very strong.

I would say the greatest benefit of a high-torque wheel is the dynamic range. I don't race open wheel much (if at all), which is probably why I'm able to overlook this so easily. Even with my relatively light settings, a Formula A car's steering feedback at full chat is really firm. There's also the matter of properly conveying peak feedback conditions like curb hits. If your FFB is tuned incorrectly, or if your wheel's dynamic range is too small, you won't feel important events that are occurring at the tires. So I can see where someone would want a higher torque wheel.

I just think that people often focus a bit too much on the raw specification of something, just for the sake of being able to say that they have a greater specification. I'd caution the OP against that, but wouldn't go so far as to say he should choose one over the other. That will be dictated by preference. I haven't used a T500 personally, but when I researched wheels, I learned that the T300 had brushless motors, which resulted in smoother force delivery. That took priority (for me) over raw torque. Everyone has to make that evaluation on their own.Max power in this case means the wheel is set to 70% overall FFB (extensive benchmarking has shown that even at 100% the wheel doesn't actually produce any more torque, it just starts saturating the forces sooner, it hits its peak earlier and then just sends the same full forces all the time. So it's best to think of the ~70% power level as 100% and 100% as 150%. In-game I set every car separately, mostly to produce about 85-90% signal level during cornering to leave that 10-15% headroom. This isn't because 100% is too strong, just because I want that headroom to be there so I know when something happens.

Indeed, the dynamic range is the best part about these, and what I disliked in the otherwise excellent G2X base. The maximum strength in that is very low compared to the T300 and T500, and if you adjust it for decent dynamic range it ends up feeling very light most of the time. I'd describe my nearly 10 years with it before getting a T500 as "fingertippy". Great wheel otherwise, just wish it was stronger and quicker in its rotations.

Indeed, pure spec is never the right way to go, you do need to consider other things. 100% with you on that. The T500 might be slightly stronger, but the T300 is a lot smoother. There are two additional reasons why I like the T500 over the T300 though (even excluding the pedals): The T500 comes with a 30 cm diameter rim vs. a 28 cm diameter rim in the T300. This makes a difference, even though it's "just" 2 cm. The bigger rim just feels a lot nicer. Of course you can buy the nice alcantara rim for the T300 which is the same size. The other is that the top of the base is slightly closer to the steering axle, leaving a bit more room between the top of the wheelbase and the bottom of the top part of the wheel rim. I have my 40" HDTV set up behind my wheel so that I see the dials as I would in a real car, by looking through the wheel, and the T500 allows for more space there. Small difference but it can matter to some.

On the strength front, I don't know what to say. I've played with a T500 for over two years now, and my friend has a T300 so I've tested that quite a bit as well, and another friend has a CSW V2 which I tested quite extensively over a 4 day period when I visited him. None of these wheels in any way felt like they could challenge me if I really wanted to maintain a hold on the wheel, and even at full tilt, with constantly clipping, overblown forces, driving an hour with them was nowhere near as tiring to my arms as each of the two 20 minute RL karting sessions we did were (in the rain, so not as much grip = not as much steering force required). It's a workout for sure, but nothing serious.

And while I do think there's a slight potential for injury, that's almost only when you allow your hands to get into an awkward position where you can't apply strength properly. It's kinda like if someone manages a decent joint lock on you, it will cause pain and can cause injury even though not that much force is being applied, just because you're not able to resist it properly and it's acting in a direction your joints are weak against. Maybe I have a better "wheel technique" and manage to avoid these situations, because even though I'm not strong by any measure none of these wheels can't really fight me if I don't let them.

EDIT: Oh, and when I talk about full power, I do have a good idea what it actually is. The in-game graph can indeed seemingly lie sometimes, the signal clipping even when the felt power is distinctly low, but I've done plenty of testing with a variety of games as well as purpose built FFB testing software, and am quite well aware how strong these wheels are when going at maximum tilt. =)

Awong124
25-02-2016, 19:31
On the strength front, I don't know what to say. I've played with a T500 for over two years now, and my friend has a T300 so I've tested that quite a bit as well, and another friend has a CSW V2 which I tested quite extensively over a 4 day period when I visited him. None of these wheels in any way felt like they could challenge me if I really wanted to maintain a hold on the wheel, and even at full tilt, with constantly clipping, overblown forces, driving an hour with them was nowhere near as tiring to my arms as each of the two 20 minute RL karting sessions we did were (in the rain, so not as much grip = not as much steering force required). It's a workout for sure, but nothing serious.

Injury is likely not something you would encounter on a road racing sim, but could very well happen in a rally game. If there are ever situations where the wheel would suddenly jerk one way or the other, the T300 and T500 could very possibly hurt you even if you're holding firm. If you ever try going off-roading in The Crew (not a sim), you'll see what I mean.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
25-02-2016, 19:37
I have played with the T500 in AC before the updates made the FFB when sliding smoother (the direction changes back then were RIDICULOUSLY sharp, the wheel went literally from clipping one way to clipping the other way) as well as rF2 with its famously rattle and impulse capable FFB (which actually has broken several wheels from hitting the kerbs), and have also played rally games quite a bit. These sharp jolts were only ever an issue if I didn't maintain a good hold on the wheel, but if I was focusing on what I was doing then they were non-issues, and way easier than karting. =)

maxx69
26-02-2016, 18:01
I keep hearing the word "clipping" when discussing FFB. Can someone explain what this means please ...?

bradleyland
26-02-2016, 18:18
I keep hearing the word "clipping" when discussing FFB. Can someone explain what this means please ...?

The game sends a signal to the wheel telling it how much force to generate in either direction (rotate-left or rotate-right). This signal is calculated from various different force modeling parameters. These parameters are what you see on the game and individual car FFB settings in the setup menu.

Clipping is when the output of this calculation exceeds 100%. If you switch the hud to telemetry view, you can see the FFB signal strength in the graph in the upper left corner of the screen. If the yellow line hits the top of the graph, you'll see a flat spot develop. That is clipping.

When this occurs, you are losing detail. The wheel is simply applying maximum force against your input. You'll still feel the force, but you won't feel any variation, which is the whole point of having FFB instead of a simple spring. The fix is to adjust your FFB settings so that this clipping doesn't occur.

bradleyland
26-02-2016, 18:20
Indeed, pure spec is never the right way to go, you do need to consider other things. 100% with you on that. The T500 might be slightly stronger, but the T300 is a lot smoother. There are two additional reasons why I like the T500 over the T300 though (even excluding the pedals): The T500 comes with a 30 cm diameter rim vs. a 28 cm diameter rim in the T300. This makes a difference, even though it's "just" 2 cm. The bigger rim just feels a lot nicer. Of course you can buy the nice alcantara rim for the T300 which is the same size. The other is that the top of the base is slightly closer to the steering axle, leaving a bit more room between the top of the wheelbase and the bottom of the top part of the wheel rim. I have my 40" HDTV set up behind my wheel so that I see the dials as I would in a real car, by looking through the wheel, and the T500 allows for more space there. Small difference but it can matter to some.

That was actually a really big deal to me. It's a big part of the reason I ended up going with the Ferrari Alcantara combo. The 30cm wheel and the T3PA pedals were big deal makers. :yes:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
26-02-2016, 18:24
I keep hearing the word "clipping" when discussing FFB. Can someone explain what this means please ...?It's when the signal hits 100% level prematurely.

The steering feel in real cars comes from the interaction of the rubber with the road, how the steering linkage behaves, how the power steering system is built and so on. But in a game, especially when you consider how weak some consumer wheels are and again how strong some prosumer wheels are, how hard the FFB signal sent to the wheel for any given tyre force level calculated in the simulation becomes arbitrary and adjustable. Essentially this means that with some settings the FFB system can hit 100% signal strength with just slightly turning the wheel, and nothing that happens after that can cause the signal to rise higher.

And that's clipping, the signal hitting the peak level it can get to and flattening out against that, because there's no room for it to do anything else. At the extremes this can make the FFB feel like it's only turning on and off, not varying in power at all.

On the other end of the scale is a situation where the FFB level are set up so that only the largest simulation forces that ever get generated (like hitting a bump while cornering hard or something like that) cause a 100% force signal to be sent, while normal cornering results in a lower signal level. This makes the wheel feel lighter overall (because the average force is lower), but it makes the forces feel more dynamic because there's a lot of variance in the response, and the signal never sticks to 100% signal level for extended periods.

satco1066
26-02-2016, 19:54
i think the forces you feel also depend to the transmission inside the base.
Think of the lever principle.

BigDad
27-02-2016, 00:39
I on the other hand haven't been to the gym in years and overall am more technical than powerful, and when I race I normally do at least 1.5 hour races with the wheel set to max power (T500). Even the CSW V2 at full force isn't strong enough to really fight an average strength human (I say this as a below average strength one).

That's not saying that wheels should always be set to provide the maximum amount of force in every turn, in fact I prefer setting them up per car type (road cars with proper power steering I set to quite light, racing cars that are meant to have heavy steering at high downforce loads I set up as heavy). IIRC the torque measured at the wheel of the T500 was something along the lines of 6 Nm (a G25 was around 3 Nm in the same test, which matches my impression of the difference between the two), the CSW V2 from what I've seen is between 7-8 Nm. The torque measured at the wheel of a Champcar could easily reach 15-20 Nm. That's why the direct drive servo wheels are so powerful.

Also it's not just about whether or not the peak power is strong enough. The best situation is when you can set up your wheel such that the average forces you get while cornering are somewhere around 50-70% FFB signal level, so that you have 30-50% of headroom for the harder signals you run into when hitting bumps etc. without clipping. And some cars have very dynamic forces. Some of the open-wheelers produce VERY strong FFB signals at high aero loads, so with normal consumer wheels you have to select between having the wheel be very light at low speeds and getting to use the full power of the wheel at high speeds, or having it nice at low speeds and then clip the signal constantly at high speeds...
Hey Jussi , where did you get your torque numbers from ? What test ? I would like to see the numbers of my Fanatec 911 GT2 wheel.

gotdirt410sprintcar
27-02-2016, 02:18
I am leaning towards Jussi's side on this one, I have a T500 and run FFB and Tyre Force as high as I can go without clipping (100 and 95 respectively I think) and regularly do 90+ minute races without issue. After a particularly strenuous race I might have a slight ache in my forearms but thats it really, I would have thought any injuries would be limited to a damaged thumb if you were really unlucky or did something stupid. you must not have very good FFB or you have no dynamic feel you lose alot when everything is turned up imo.

maxx69
27-02-2016, 09:50
It's when the signal hits 100% level prematurely.

The steering feel in real cars comes from the interaction of the rubber with the road, how the steering linkage behaves, how the power steering system is built and so on. But in a game, especially when you consider how weak some consumer wheels are and again how strong some prosumer wheels are, how hard the FFB signal sent to the wheel for any given tyre force level calculated in the simulation becomes arbitrary and adjustable. Essentially this means that with some settings the FFB system can hit 100% signal strength with just slightly turning the wheel, and nothing that happens after that can cause the signal to rise higher.

And that's clipping, the signal hitting the peak level it can get to and flattening out against that, because there's no room for it to do anything else. At the extremes this can make the FFB feel like it's only turning on and off, not varying in power at all.

On the other end of the scale is a situation where the FFB level are set up so that only the largest simulation forces that ever get generated (like hitting a bump while cornering hard or something like that) cause a 100% force signal to be sent, while normal cornering results in a lower signal level. This makes the wheel feel lighter overall (because the average force is lower), but it makes the forces feel more dynamic because there's a lot of variance in the response, and the signal never sticks to 100% signal level for extended periods.

That's excellent ,thanks . I sometimes get a feeling of (sort of like ) gritty , vibrations which leave me finding the car pretty much undriveable , like driving on gravel.
I use a PS4 , T300rs and T3PA pedals.....was wondering whether this is a bug or something. After restarting the game it disappears.
I can have a normal qualifying session and then have to leave the race because of this effect....any ideas what this maybe ?

maxx69
27-02-2016, 09:51
The game sends a signal to the wheel telling it how much force to generate in either direction (rotate-left or rotate-right). This signal is calculated from various different force modeling parameters. These parameters are what you see on the game and individual car FFB settings in the setup menu.

Clipping is when the output of this calculation exceeds 100%. If you switch the hud to telemetry view, you can see the FFB signal strength in the graph in the upper left corner of the screen. If the yellow line hits the top of the graph, you'll see a flat spot develop. That is clipping.

When this occurs, you are losing detail. The wheel is simply applying maximum force against your input. You'll still feel the force, but you won't feel any variation, which is the whole point of having FFB instead of a simple spring. The fix is to adjust your FFB settings so that this clipping doesn't occur.

Thanks mate , that's very helpful :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
27-02-2016, 11:21
Hey Jussi , where did you get your torque numbers from ? What test ? I would like to see the numbers of my Fanatec 911 GT2 wheel.Googling and various forums essentially. AFAIK there hasn't been any official tests and none of the manufacturers actually claim torque numbers, but several people have tried testing themselves via various methods (like attaching a pole and a weight to the wheel and seeing when the FFB motor can't hold it up anymore), and after a while some trends started to emerge with enough tests claiming similar numbers that I currently have no reason to think they're not reasonably accurate. They also mesh well with my own experiences in that the T500 is clearly way stronger than the G2X and the CSW V2 is slightly stronger than the T500.

BigDad
27-02-2016, 14:10
See were's the " ask Jussi " thread .
I can see this gaining momentum , lol

charliev69
27-02-2016, 16:53
See were's the " ask Jussi " thread .
I can see this gaining momentum , lol

Jussi , who's going to win the Carling Cup football final on Sunday , Liverpool or Manchester City ??

C'mon the reds ... YNWA !!

:)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
27-02-2016, 18:12
Jussi , who's going to win the Carling Cup football final on Sunday , Liverpool or Manchester City ??

C'mon the reds ... YNWA !!

:)It'll be a close one, but I firmly believe Dynamo Moscow will take it.

guntag
28-02-2016, 15:20
I have tried to measure the T500 torque with an packet scale. Put Tire force, master scale, Fy to it max values and rotated the wheel about 90 degrees.The result in cold condition was 3,4 kg on 30 cm wheel, therefore 3,4Kg x 9,81 m/s2 x 0,15m=5,1Nm.Power consumption about 60W

233632

guntag
01-03-2016, 10:33
The same measurement with T300, 2,3Kg x 9,81m/s2 x 0,15m = 3,4 Nm
228662

MaximusN
01-03-2016, 11:22
They also mesh well with my own experiences in that the T500 is clearly way stronger than the G2X Indeed WAY stronger and WAY faster(than in my case a G25). And it also allows you to turn(/correct) faster and with less mechanical resistance. It's also way faster and stronger than the CSR, but the mechanical resistance is about the same as the T500. The CSR and G25 have their pro's and cons(G25 is a lot sturdier f.i.). But the T500 is way above them in my opinion on all accounts, except static paddles.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
01-03-2016, 11:41
I've actually been wholesale converted to static paddles, these days I vastly prefer them to moving ones. =)

MaximusN
05-03-2016, 08:43
I've actually been wholesale converted to static paddles, these days I vastly prefer them to moving ones. =)

It's personal preference I guess. They do have one upside: you always know which side is shift-up and -down. :) But no I still vastly prefer moving ones. I wouldn't want to have it any other way in my roadcar either (BMW knows what their doing Ferrari don't ;) ).

I actually bought the 458 addon(with moving paddles unlike the real one if I'm not correct) but the wheel diameter is 2cm smaller. Couldn't live with that either. That's almost G25 size so I butchered it and used the rim to make a frankenstein upgrade to the CSR which has a horrible plastic wheel out of the box. I'm in the process of searching an aftermarket wheel to use on the 458 hub. Maybe that will finally give me inner peace. ;)

BigDad
05-03-2016, 12:10
Have you got a pic of the FrankenCSR by chance ?
How did you go about wiring ?
How do you like you mutant CSR now , compared to stock ?

Fight-Test
05-03-2016, 12:51
I've actually been wholesale converted to static paddles, these days I vastly prefer them to moving ones. =)

Jussi what do you prefer in a real car? My 370 had static paddles, the they were small and hard to reach when turning and it didn't let you shift into second at a standstill so turing left and right from a stop was a pain in the ass. My new subie has moving paddles and is 8 speed but you can shift into second at a dead stop. Very nice, and paddles are tiny like the f1 rim. Those t500 statics are huge though, prob makes it alot easier than my z.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-03-2016, 13:09
Jussi what do you prefer in a real car?H-gate. =)

I've never had the chance to drive a real car with paddles. In a real car I'd expect to like static paddles more, because there are many more situations in real life driving where you don't have your wheel centered when you need to reach the paddles, and finding the up and down paddles as easily as possible at any given time is a massive boon.
My 370 had static paddles, the they were small and hard to reach when turning and it didn't let you shift into second at a standstill so turing left and right from a stop was a pain in the ass. My new subie has moving paddles and is 8 speed but you can shift into second at a dead stop. Very nice, and paddles are tiny like the f1 rim. Those t500 statics are huge though, prob makes it alot easier than my z.Yeah, they've gotta be pretty big to work properly (Ferrari has the right idea).

The main reasons I prefer big static paddles these days is that they're always in the same place, and especially that they discourage you from trying to shift too much in the middle of corners, making you focus more on your shifting, which can make you a better driver.

MaximusN
06-03-2016, 11:10
H-gate. =)

I've never had the chance to drive a real car with paddles. In a real car I'd expect to like static paddles more, because there are many more situations in real life driving where you don't have your wheel centered when you need to reach the paddles, and finding the up and down paddles as easily as possible at any given time is a massive boon.Yeah, they've gotta be pretty big to work properly (Ferrari has the right idea).

The main reasons I prefer big static paddles these days is that they're always in the same place, and especially that they discourage you from trying to shift too much in the middle of corners, making you focus more on your shifting, which can make you a better driver.

I also mentioned that you'd never confuse which is which with static paddles so I agree , but that ONLY applies at parking speeds(with more than 180 degrees turning so you can't keep both hands at a quarter to three) IMHO. As long as you can keep your hands on the paddles(180 degrees both ways) it's actually quicker AND less confusing(left HAND is always down, right HAND is always up, instead of left PADDLE, etc..) . And I think most modern cars go almost lock to lock in that range.

And being able to shortshift in corners wins it for the moving ones for me. That plus you don't have the chance to really hurt your fingers if you get a kickback out of the wheel when your fingers are in the wrong place at that time(the T500RS is strong enough, and that's not even close to a real car). Static paddles can break(or at least hurt) you fingers easily. I drive way more relaxed with moving ones. And F1 has moving paddles(including both clutch paddles), so there must be something to them. ;)

MaximusN
06-03-2016, 11:16
Have you got a pic of the FrankenCSR by chance ?
How did you go about wiring ?
How do you like you mutant CSR now , compared to stock ?

The wiring is stock. The panel is still in it's place, but cut off the original wheel. I took out the centre of the F458 wheel so it's wedged between the moving base with paddles and the 'control panel'. I'll see if I can upload a pic somewhere. I like it way better if only for the wheel being round now instead of having a horrible AUDI indentation in the wheel(it's great for legroom in a real car, but sucks for ever other ergonomic reason). And I'm not holding shiny plastic with fake alcantara pieces any more. :)

BigDad
06-03-2016, 11:20
Buttons ? Have you still got full function of them ?
I'd like to see a pic if it were possible .

MaximusN
08-03-2016, 21:31
Buttons ? Have you still got full function of them ?
I'd like to see a pic if it were possible .
Here you go. It's not as neat as it could have been(the hole in the top was because I thought that part would end up on the bottom:p) and the panel won't fit flush with the housing because the wheel is wedged between the print and the housing. The second wheel is my t500rs now graced with the leftover part of the 458 addon, but now fit with a 32 cm real steering wheel. Which feels a whole lot better than the 28cm original(the std GT wheel being 30 which is okay). I used wood for the adapter hub because it's easy to use. Feels quite sturdy, but I agree it's not a winner in the looks department.


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havocc
08-03-2016, 22:13
Why don't you remove static paddles? It's cake work compared to what you've done :D

MaximusN
09-03-2016, 06:38
Why don't you remove static paddles? It's cake work compared to what you've done :D

I think I will :D But I started the T500 mod yesterday. It's not complete anyway because I don't plan on keeping the wood :)

guntag
09-03-2016, 08:23
Consider if you increase the mass of the wheel you worsen its feedback.

MaximusN
09-03-2016, 08:48
Consider if you increase the mass of the wheel you worsen its feedback.

I know, and it's certainly important to me. I checked the weight while selecting the wheel. But the standard GT wheel is about the same weight as my modded 458 wheel. Only issue might be that it's inertia is heavier because of the slight increase in size(30cm-->32cm). But it won't be by a lot. And its more than compensated (for me anyway)by for now having un-static paddles :D. I really hate small wheels and static paddles.:cool:

MaximusN
22-03-2016, 09:02
I know, and it's certainly important to me. I checked the weight while selecting the wheel. But the standard GT wheel is about the same weight as my modded 458 wheel. Only issue might be that it's inertia is heavier because of the slight increase in size(30cm-->32cm). But it won't be by a lot. And its more than compensated (for me anyway)by for now having un-static paddles :D. I really hate small wheels and static paddles.:cool:

Went 1-up and replaced the 32cm plastic wheel(from an Opel apparently) to a 35cm leather Momo. I repainted the leather from red to black(not perfect, work-in-progress). Feels even better especially because of the leather. FFB speed and strength are still okay(rattles on straights are still very annoying :rolleyes:)

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