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Casey Ringley
03-03-2016, 16:15
Sorry for the delay in getting this up, guys. Hope you've all been enjoying the latest cars. Here are some notes from the production of each one.


Dallara DW12

We were fortunate enough to work directly with the Schmidt Peterson team on this car and their engineering team came through with a mountain of data for us to use in matching the game model to the real thing. Very pleased to say that our aero model matches the real car within 2% for drag, downforce, and aero balance over a full range of ride heights all the way from minimum to maximum downforce. Couldn’t be happier with how closely we were able to copy the real thing as aero is obviously a huge part of these cars. Important thing to remember in setup of a car with tunnels like this is that it doesn’t love a lot of rake. Ideally you want to keep it as low and level as possible for the aero to work at its best.

Our model was built from CAD, of course, so suspension geometry is pulled directly from this. All spring and damper values are done in wheel rate. The DW12 has adjustable rockers so motion ratio for each part is variable within the car setup. We adapted spring rates and damper force plots from the real car to cover the full range of motion ratio adjustment the teams have, so you can set it up as soft or stiff as they do. Default setup is aimed at a middle of the road thing, halfway between what a team would use for their minimum downforce track (Indy road course) and max downforce (Sonoma)

Engine is the twin-turbo 2.2L V6. I think both Honda and Chevy are being quite modest by still claiming 700hp for it in road course spec with 1.5bar boost. With the good aero data we could run it in similar conditions to the real car and match top speeds. This clearly showed that something closer to 750hp is needed to match speeds of the real car. Push to pass is then available in races for 10 shots of a 20-second / 0.1bar increase, taking it to 800hp. Lots of power from a little thing but only if you gear it to be up at the peak of the powerband.

Tires are a similar construction to what we have on the Formula Renault 3.5 - another Dallara chassis with similar design to the underbody aerodynamics. Primary (black sidewall) slicks will safely last you one tank of fuel without falling off too much. Alternate red tires are about 1s per lap faster but go off much more quickly.

Once we got all that baseline work done, the Mayor of Hinchtown himself gave it a good run and came back with a set of notes on areas to improve the car. We made a number of changes to the chassis balance, particularly due to engine braking, and tweaked the tire model for some added stability near the limit of grip (the Firestones they use are very sticky) and it now pretty much lines up with the feedback from Hinch. They gave it a second run at SPM HQ as well and agreed that it moved very much in the right direction. Really takes focus to push this one at 100%. Fun car!

Motion Ratios: 1 / 1
Damper Transition, front: 25mm/s
Damper Transition, rear: 25mm/s
Unsprung mass: 30 / 41kg


Chevrolet Corvette C7.R

Another car where we had the great opportunity to work with one of the real drivers; this time being Tommy Milner. We’ve actually known Tommy since he was a 14 year old kid just getting started in karts and fooling around with simulation games, so it is beyond cool to see where his career has gone. :)

Long story short, the C7.R is just a great package for endurance racing. The way it fits into Le Mans rules have it running at the standard class minimum of 1245kg (20kg more than the Porsche and Aston, which both get a break) and 2x29.1mm air restrictors which have making a healthy 500hp @ 6000rpm. The rear wing height and gurney flap size mean it pays a something of drag penalty for that power, but overall the aero package is excellent. The extra drag turns into a nice amount of downforce and general ride height/pitch sensitivity is low for a modern GT thanks to the short overhangs. It might not always be fastest over a single lap, but it’s super easy to push it at maximum for a long time.

LS5.5R engine would, amazingly, be good for upward of 750hp unrestricted. This matches up with some performance packages Katech produces for similar units you can run on the road. More amazing still is that they averaged 14-lap stints, same as the Aston, despite having a fuel tank 10L smaller. Direct injection making a big difference there. The torque curve is massive and, in restricted form, you are right up at 95% of peak power from 4900-6500rpm. It doesn’t need to rev out to the limit for max performance and the fuel savings benefit you get from using fewer rpm can be a big benefit in the long haul.

Tommy gave the car a run just before the Daytona 24 and said we were on the right track, but had the default setup too stiff. That instantly clicked with something I remember from the older C6.R and that Pratt & Miller actually ran that car on softer spring rates than the road car. The setup we’ve ended up with now is a much better match to how they run the real car. You can make it as stiff as the Vantage GTE or others, but there really is something to say for letting it roll around a bit more, and it can do that without so much penalty thanks to the docile aero.

Motion Ratios: 0.71 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 30mm/s bump - 60mm/s rebound
Damper Transition, rear: 51mm/s bump - 95mm/s rebound
Unsprung mass: 45 / 55kg


Cadillac ATS-V.R

Nice little racecar here. Official spec has the engine producing 600hp @ 7400rpm and 520lb-ft @ 5500rpm, but that makes it a very vague statement as neither restrictor size nor boost pressure are specified. So what we did was start by looking at the non-turbocharged road car plus 18psi boost (max for the ATS-V road car) and only light tuning was needed to make it hit those targets. Was just a case of holding that max 18psi boost up to 7000rpm rather than dropping boost as rpm rises to get a flat torque curve as appears they’ve done in the road car. A number of aftermarket tuners are doing ECU flashes with this same trick that instantly add 100+hp. Pretty cool, though you hate to see the standard car held back so much. Next we applied the boost pressure curve they must run in the PWC series and 2x40mm air restrictors to match. With that data, it fell nicely to 500hp with 445lb-ft torque and a super wide power band from 5700rpm right up to the limiter at 7600; perfectly matched to other cars in the class.

Aero package is fairly typical of a GT3 car. Decent efficiency with mostly an increasing rear bias as you dial on more downforce. Top speeds come in around 170mph at Road America, which is right on target for the race there last year.

You can sorta-kinda think of it like a GT-R GT3 with better natural chassis balance since it was RWD from the outset. 1315kg with weight distribution of 51% rear works really well for a car like this and overall it’s not difficult to see why it won the championship last year. Good balance and all the right elements around that.

Motion Ratios: 0.72 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 60mm/s
Damper Transition, rear: 60mm/s
Unsprung mass: 50 / 55kg


Ford Fusion Gen.6 Stockcar

I haven't paid much attention to these in a while and they are actually quite impressive now! The 5.866L (pushrod!) V8s can make well over 900hp now but, as of last year, they are using a mandatory 1.17” restrictor plate at all tracks. This limits the car to 750hp @ 8500rpm. Still a lot!

More impressive is the aerodynamics these simple shapes are making even without purely flat floors. Lift/Drag ratios are around 2:1, which is at or above what you might expect from a GT3 car. Mighty efficient for a car with 'simple' aerodynamics. The oval bodywork on their new cars is also designed to be asymmetric to produce upward of 500lbf of side force @ 200mph, taking a lot of work away from the tires at some tracks. Our model doesn’t rely on that as it is focused on road course racing, but thought it was worth mentioning as the lateral (heh) thinking going into the aero is pretty cool stuff.

Operating range for the tires is all the way up over 235°F, and Goodyear says to not worry unless they are consistently over 275! Tread rubber is only 3.2mm thick so it does heat, cool, and burn off pretty quick when pushing hard. There is the option to restrict it down to 480hp and I’d recommend that for learning the car. It can be a real handful jumping straight into something with so much mass, so much power, and relatively little tire.

Motion Ratios, front: 0.65 spring, 0.81 damper
Motion Ratios, rear: 0.84 spring and damper
Damper Transition, front: 90mm/s
Damper Transition, rear: 90mm/s
Unsprung mass: 61 / 102kg (note the rear number is per-corner, but solid axle means you have 204kg moving in unison there)


Aston Martin Vantage GT12

This is essentially a V12 Vantage GT3 for the road. Engine is a slightly detuned (but unrestricted) version of the GT3 unit good for 595hp @ 7000 with the rev limit just above that. Gearbox is a 7-speed automated sequential manual from Graziano which has been universally bashed for harsh shifting (sorry guys). That carries through to our model and you might want to take care during the shifts especially if in a situation where the chassis is unsettled. Slight lift on the throttle during downshifts isn’t a bad idea.

Aero kit does produce some downforce and is claimed at 7x the standard V12 S and 2x the Vantage GT4. Those are going to be multipliers on a very small number, though, and ours is set to produce a generous 400lbf @ 150mph with only mild sensitivity to ride height due to the car sitting above 100mm when static. Only thing it really doesn't like is nose up where that big front splitter loses effect and adds understeer. Drag added from the wing and stuff keeps top speed just under 300kph. It could probably push closer to 200mph, but the gearing holds it back as you're 1000rpm off peak power in 7th gear at 300kph.

Set to use our Faretti road tire set, same as many other supercars, with the soft 'track' tire by default. Very wide rubber with 265 fronts and 325 rear. More rubber than the Zonda needs with its extra 150hp. Grips *really* well and is good for mid 7:20s at the Ring here.

Motion Ratios: 0.72 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 50mm/s bump, 80mm/s rebound
Damper Transition, rear: 51mm/s bump, 95mm/s rebound
Unsprung mass: 45 / 55kg

Umer Ahmad
03-03-2016, 16:21
Thanks Casey.


GT3 v GTE "sprint performance" seem backwards for many people...Vantage and C7R are getting beaten convincingly by the GT3s (Macca & Z4).

What are your thoughts here? Should we players adjust our expectations? I think many would like to see the GTEs "boosted" to outrun the GT3s single-lap times, something we are also seeing in the 2016 seasons (IMSA, FIA, ACO)

larsenten
03-03-2016, 16:24
Thanks Casey..

FS7
03-03-2016, 16:34
Lots of great info as usual, thanks!


Primary (black sidewall) slicks will safely last you one tank of fuel without falling off too much. Alternate red tires are about 1s per lap faster but go off much more quickly.
Suggestion: for the next patch you guys should put Indycar tyre info on the in-game hud (eg: Primary - hard, Alternate - soft) like you do with tyres for other cars. Just having Primary/Alternate on the hud isn't helpful.

kevin kirk
03-03-2016, 16:35
good read

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
03-03-2016, 16:47
Thanks for the data once again, and a very interesting read all around. The figures you quote for the Aston's DF are quite similar to what I found during testing, I was really surprised to see a road car producing that much. =)

Indeed, like Umer says, any thoughts on the GTE performance levels? The C7.R doesn't seem too bad, it's already pretty quick even without getting to fully see how the tuning pans out, but the Aston GTE definitely is behind everything else in pace, no-one so far has been able to make it match the other GT3/GTE cars and even the best drivers seem to be at least 1-2 seconds slower in it than they are in other cars.

EDIT: Oh, and darn it, Fusion is the first and only car with different motion ratios for front springs and dampers. This will require quite a bit of fiddling with my spreadsheet and the website, just for one car... =)

Shinzah
03-03-2016, 17:10
Dallara DW12

We were fortunate enough to work directly with the Schmidt Peterson team on this car and their engineering team came through with a mountain of data for us to use in matching the game model to the real thing.

Once we got all that baseline work done, the Mayor of Hinchtown himself gave it a good run and came back with a set of notes on areas to improve the car. We made a number of changes to the chassis balance, particularly due to engine braking, and tweaked the tire model for some added stability near the limit of grip (the Firestones they use are very sticky) and it now pretty much lines up with the feedback from Hinch. They gave it a second run at SPM HQ as well and agreed that it moved very much in the right direction. Really takes focus to push this one at 100%. Fun car!


Chevrolet Corvette C7.R

Another car where we had the great opportunity to work with one of the real drivers; this time being Tommy Milner. We’ve actually known Tommy since he was a 14 year old kid just getting started in karts and fooling around with simulation games, so it is beyond cool to see where his career has gone. :)


Hinch and Milner tested.

Hinch and Milner approved.

seb02
03-03-2016, 18:02
Thanks casey. Great dlc. <Off topic request snipped by Umer>

Mahjik
03-03-2016, 18:08
Guys, keep this specific to the physics of the vehicles in this DLC. Future OT (Off Topic) posts will be removed.

seb02
03-03-2016, 18:17
Guys, keep this specific to the physics of the vehicles in this DLC. Future OT (Off Topic) posts will be removed.

Sorry Mahjik

Mauler_77
03-03-2016, 23:20
I've been driving the DW12 with the Primary tyres on without even realizing the reds were quicker. The grip levels are already excellent so I can't wait to try the reds. It's a great car, well done! Haven't even tried the other cars yet as I was having so much fun in the IndyCar.

G Gladstone
04-03-2016, 10:55
I really like these Physics of....

Casey's comments about the default setup i like a lot . It helps me to setup the car:D Thanks again.

danowat
04-03-2016, 11:01
Nice reading how you reverse engineered the ATS-V R engine specs, I've always wondered the procedure for simulating a power train when there isn't much (concrete) information available.

One thing I have wondered is how the PCars engine simulation system (and chassis / suspension) works, is it as simple as plugin in the specs to the engine (cubic capacity, cylinder configuration, power curve etc) and the engine chucks out the required model?, or is there a lot of per model adjustments that need to be done?

As a mechanical engineer myself, we always look for global solutions, so you just plugin certain values and the simulation engine spits out the required model, just wondered how global it was when it comes to modelling a powertrain / chassis in something like PCars

jimmyb_84
04-03-2016, 11:51
Thank you for this latest DLC I fully tested it last night with an hour race around Le Mans in the C7.R and wow what a car. Standard setup is very good I made a few minor changes to suit LM but generally stable and drive able, lost under heavy braking a couple of times with the rest getting lose but wow the car was great. I also noticed straight away from cockpit view that the scoop in the centre of the bonnet rattled about just like the real car too! This made it even more realistic.

Crew Chief and vrHive complimented the situation and I was in the zone, Thank you incredible work.


http://youtu.be/fvoIQdQVpic

Casey Ringley
04-03-2016, 15:43
Nice reading how you reverse engineered the ATS-V R engine specs, I've always wondered the procedure for simulating a power train when there isn't much (concrete) information available.

One thing I have wondered is how the PCars engine simulation system (and chassis / suspension) works, is it as simple as plugin in the specs to the engine (cubic capacity, cylinder configuration, power curve etc) and the engine chucks out the required model?, or is there a lot of per model adjustments that need to be done?

As a mechanical engineer myself, we always look for global solutions, so you just plugin certain values and the simulation engine spits out the required model, just wondered how global it was when it comes to modelling a powertrain / chassis in something like PCars

We do plug in basic dimensions of the engine and use that to run our simulation of the air moving through it. After all, an engine is just an air pump, right? ;) So we take the displacement, intake system properties, rpm, weather conditions, etc. and use that to simulate the manifold pressure. Then we correlate that pressure to a baseline torque curve so you get less if the ambient conditions take away power or raise it naturally due to forced induction. Drawing that baseline torque curve can be tricky, sometimes, if they aren't willing to give nice dyno plots or reliable data, but working on the GT3 cars is always nice; they must stay close enough to the production units that general characteristics can usually be figured out by studying what people have done while fiddling with their road cars.

danowat
04-03-2016, 15:50
We do plug in basic dimensions of the engine and use that to run our simulation of the air moving through it. After all, an engine is just an air pump, right? ;) So we take the displacement, intake system properties, rpm, weather conditions, etc. and use that to simulate the manifold pressure. Then we correlate that pressure to a baseline torque curve so you get less if the ambient conditions take away power or raise it naturally due to forced induction. Drawing that baseline torque curve can be tricky, sometimes, if they aren't willing to give nice dyno plots or reliable data, but working on the GT3 cars is always nice; they must stay close enough to the production units that general characteristics can usually be figured out by studying what people have done while fiddling with their road cars.

Thanks.

Any chance (I know you're all busy people, and there is a chance of showing proprietary systems) of having any indepth or technical insight into the engine / chassis / tyre modelling done within PCars?, pictures, videos or write ups?, I know I'd find it interesting.

I just love the nuts of bolts of things!

Casey Ringley
04-03-2016, 16:40
It's tough, as you say, to get too in-depth without giving away too much info about how the systems work or other proprietary data. We already know the competition is cribbing ideas due to the open nature of development we used on the game, but that's fine. They've been copying us since 2006 and I don't expect that to change in the future. ;) Some stuff, though, does get into areas where manufacturers are happy to give us data to use, but don't want it shown or discussed too much publicly. You have no idea how much I wanted to show the aero maps for the DW12 and how closely our system was able to match them!

Awong124
04-03-2016, 16:50
I also noticed straight away from cockpit view that the scoop in the centre of the bonnet rattled about just like the real car too! This made it even more realistic.

I notice that in the game as well. The vibration of body pieces actually adds a surprising amount to the immersion. If I hadn't experienced it in a game before I probably would have said that it's a stupid waste of time, but I'm really glad those details are in the game. Probably why the Gran Turismo games feel so sterile, because they lack these kinds of details.

Mark Silcock
04-03-2016, 16:51
I also noticed straight away from cockpit view that the scoop in the centre of the bonnet rattled about just like the real car too! This made it even more realistic.


http://youtu.be/fvoIQdQVpic

Although the feedback of the rattle when running over curbs isnt always felt in the wheel, turn 2 and 3 at Ruapuna for instance. A little OT sorry.

Thomas Sikora
04-03-2016, 16:59
Thanks casey,
one question, is it possible to collect all the physics releases in one closed thread and put them e.g. in the news thread? As a general "car/game information"
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/forumdisplay.php?119-News-amp-Announcements

Casey Ringley
04-03-2016, 17:05
Thanks casey,
one question, is it possible to collect all the physics releases in one closed thread and put them e.g. in the news thread? As a general "car/game information"
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/forumdisplay.php?119-News-amp-Announcements

You guys run this place. I only post here in the rare occasion that time allows it. Do whatever you like to make a compilation. :)

Thomas Sikora
04-03-2016, 17:32
You guys run this place. I only post here in the rare occasion that time allows it. Do whatever you like to make a compilation. :)

I was so free,
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45635-Physics-Collection-Information-to-car-releases

did i miss someone?

F1_Racer68
04-03-2016, 18:58
I was so free,
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45635-Physics-Collection-Information-to-car-releases

did i miss someone?

Thanks to Casey for providing the info on all these cars.

Even more thanks to Thomas for putting them all together in one resource for us. Great idea and it is much appreciated!!

Sankyo
04-03-2016, 20:00
I was so free,
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45635-Physics-Collection-Information-to-car-releases

did i miss someone?

Excellent, voted Post Of The Month :)

F1_Racer68
04-03-2016, 20:51
Excellent, voted Post Of The Month :)

+1. It gets my vote!

Dasidnii
05-03-2016, 02:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuK6w6CpnHM This was my first race with the Indy Car online, this car is a blast!

Holdidi
05-03-2016, 10:29
Hello,
do you guys think the Ford Fusion has the same speed in real? At Brands Hatch I almost can go same speed like GP3 (ok, 2 or 3 seconds slower), but it seems to me a little bit to fast for a NASCAR on this circuit...

David Wright
05-03-2016, 12:10
Surely you would be better running at Watkins Glen and Sonoma and comparing to real times?

Shinzah
05-03-2016, 13:31
Surely you would be better running at Watkins Glen and Sonoma and comparing to real times?

I've done this. The car is still quite fast.

I'd not say it's ridiculously off, but it is capable of stomping last years pole time at Sonoma with the default setup very handily.

However, the car does appear to be running the alternate aero package tested in 2014 and unveiled in 2015 with 9" spoiler. This specification didn't run on roadcourses last year and (unless the will of the supreme overlord wills it) will certainly not be running it this year. (I'm basing it off sight, as the spoiler on the pcars car seems like it may be bigger compared to shots of the 2015 roadcourse races with the 6" one but I don't have great eyes, and so far no identical screen to photo references.)

Just as a note that *could* be a major contributing factor, both the fact that I don't think our Sonoma or WGI are laser scanned which could affect accuracy, but also in Casey's notes in the OP the car is quote at ~750hp.
NSCS only introduced the tapered spacer in 2015 and while 1.17" is the correct spacer size, the limitation wasn't ~750 @ 8.5k. The cars were limited to ~725 @ 9k by last years ruleset.

Of course this car may be running using 2014 test data, 2013 data, or guestimations on a variety of data. Would need input from Casey.

I would say the post isn't entirely inaccurate though. The car does seem to be going just a smidge faster than it ought to be going.

Shogun613
05-03-2016, 14:59
I've done this. The car is still quite fast.

I'd not say it's ridiculously off, but it is capable of stomping last years pole time at Sonoma with the default setup very handily.

However, the car does appear to be running the alternate aero package tested in 2014 and unveiled in 2015 with 9" spoiler. This specification didn't run on roadcourses last year and (unless the will of the supreme overlord wills it) will certainly not be running it this year. (I'm basing it off sight, as the spoiler on the pcars car seems like it may be bigger compared to shots of the 2015 roadcourse races with the 6" one but I don't have great eyes, and so far no identical screen to photo references.)

Just as a note that *could* be a major contributing factor, both the fact that I don't think our Sonoma or WGI are laser scanned which could affect accuracy, but also in Casey's notes in the OP the car is quote at ~750hp.
NSCS only introduced the tapered spacer in 2015 and while 1.17" is the correct spacer size, the limitation wasn't ~750 @ 8.5k. The cars were limited to ~725 @ 9k by last years ruleset.

Of course this car may be running using 2014 test data, 2013 data, or guestimations on a variety of data. Would need input from Casey.

I would say the post isn't entirely inaccurate though. The car does seem to be going just a smidge faster than it ought to be going.

Are you using the paddles or a shifter while rev matching? NASCAR drivers still use h pattern shifters and use heel toe on downshifts, which could add time over the course of a lap as compared to paddles with auto blip.

Shinzah
05-03-2016, 15:42
Are you using the paddles or a shifter while rev matching? NASCAR drivers still use h pattern shifters and use heel toe on downshifts, which could add time over the course of a lap as compared to paddles with auto blip.

There is no way that heel-toe makes up for a 1-3s speed advantage. Also, I'm already using a controller with half-crippled hands. The car is faster than it should be going.

I should not be a second faster than AJ Allmendinger in a sprint cup car being driving by a dualshock 3.

obalouafi
05-03-2016, 16:14
Thank you Casey :cool:

F1_Racer68
05-03-2016, 16:47
There is no way that heel-toe makes up for a 1-3s speed advantage. Also, I'm already using a controller with half-crippled hands. The car is faster than it should be going.

I should not be a second faster than AJ Allmendinger in a sprint cup car being driving by a dualshock 3.


Keep in mind that this is not a "NASCAR" Ford Fusion. It is not an officially licensed product. Therefore, although it may be based on the NASCAR car, it is most likely not exactly the same specs in order to avoid any legal issues.

As a result, I would expect it to have different performance than a NASCAR Sprint Cup car.

Awong124
05-03-2016, 16:51
Are you using the paddles or a shifter while rev matching? NASCAR drivers still use h pattern shifters and use heel toe on downshifts, which could add time over the course of a lap as compared to paddles with auto blip.

In this game I've noticed that using manual clutch on cars with a clutch in real life is faster than using auto clutch. If I use manual clutch in cars with an h-pattern shifter in real life, I'm about a second a lap faster than using auto clutch and paddles. I guess SMS programmed auto clutch shift times to be on the slower side.

blot
05-03-2016, 17:05
Cheers Casey, I look forward to your technical threads as much as the DLC!

Otherworld
05-03-2016, 17:05
This Corvette is the dream to drive :D we almost have a realistic Le Mans field of cars now

Shinzah
05-03-2016, 21:28
Keep in mind that this is not a "NASCAR" Ford Fusion. It is not an officially licensed product. Therefore, although it may be based on the NASCAR car, it is most likely not exactly the same specs in order to avoid any legal issues.

As a result, I would expect it to have different performance than a NASCAR Sprint Cup car.

I'm going to say this once again.


You can't license a rules package. They can not be trademarked. Any more than you can license a screw. You *can* make an identical car and not run it under a brand if you want to. This applies in all walks of life.

Edit: That said, it can't be the same car because the 2016 Road Course package is not finalized, and it's very clearly not a 2016 base car. But that doesn't mean it can't have the same physics. NASCAR is a brand. It is not a trademarked rules package.

madmax2069
05-03-2016, 22:32
In this game I've noticed that using manual clutch on cars with a clutch in real life is faster than using auto clutch. If I use manual clutch in cars with an h-pattern shifter in real life, I'm about a second a lap faster than using auto clutch and paddles. I guess SMS programmed auto clutch shift times to be on the slower side.

Ive noticed this when using auto clutch, down shifting in a H pattern car is so much slower then using manual clutch and blipping the throttle yourself. Sometimes it blips when it shouldn't, and quite often it blips and lags before it goes into the selected gear.

F1_Racer68
05-03-2016, 23:48
I'm going to say this once again.


You can't license a rules package. They can not be trademarked. Any more than you can license a screw. You *can* make an identical car and not run it under a brand if you want to. This applies in all walks of life.

Edit: That said, it can't be the same car because the 2016 Road Course package is not finalized, and it's very clearly not a 2016 base car. But that doesn't mean it can't have the same physics. NASCAR is a brand. It is not a trademarked rules package.

Totally wrong. The rule set is what makes the product. That's why NASCAR and ARCA cars may look the same, but are in fact very different. (note that ARCA publishes their rule book (http://www.thepitlane.org/files/2016-arca-racing-rulebook.pdf), with technical regulations, for the public while NASCAR does not.)

Since NASCAR only releases their technical regulations to registered members and not the general public, they have effectively deemed it "Intellectual Property" and it is therefore subject to litigation if anyone outside of the NASCAR umbrella were to use it.

They are the sanctioning body and therefore are the rights owners to their rule set, just as the ACO is the owner of the GTE and LMP rule sets and SRO is the legal owner of the GT3 rule set (used under license by the FIA). How strictly they enforce that ownership is a different discussion. NASCAR begin what they are, they take their ownership very seriously and are quick to call lawyers in.

Shinzah
05-03-2016, 23:55
Totally wrong. The rule set is what makes the product. That's why NASCAR and ARCA cars may look the same, but are in fact very different. (note that ARCA publishes their rule book (http://www.thepitlane.org/files/2016-arca-racing-rulebook.pdf), with technical regulations, for the public while NASCAR does not.)

Since NASCAR only releases their technical regulations to registered members and not the general public, they have effectively deemed it "Intellectual Property" and it is therefore subject to litigation if anyone outside of the NASCAR umbrella were to use it.

They are the sanctioning body and therefore are the rights owners to their rule set, just as the ACO is the owner of the GTE and LMP rule sets and SRO is the legal owner of the GT3 rule set (used under license by the FIA). How strictly they enforce that ownership is a different discussion. NASCAR begin what they are, they take their ownership very seriously and are quick to call lawyers in.

I knew this would happen. So see this?

http://www.lfsc.com/galleria_images/90/90_main_f.jpg

This is a 2005 Aston Martin Daytona Prototype. It was built exactly to 2005 Daytona Prototype rules. It was able to compete in Grand-Am competition. It was perfectly legal. It used a legal chassis. With a legal engine. It is a race winning car. It is the only car of this kind to exist.

It is legal in FIVE non-ACCUS racing series. Why? Because ACCUS does not own Daytona Prototypes. It owns the name. Daytona Prototype. It does not own the cars. This car could (and indeed has) raced in DIRECTLY COMPETING SERIES.

You can. Not. License. Technical specifications. You can't. You are wrong. NASCAR cup cars compete every weekend around the world in various motorsport disciplines, including as-ran for almost ten years in ARCA, NASCARS DIRECT national competitor.

F1_Racer68
06-03-2016, 00:06
I knew this would happen. So see this?

http://www.lfsc.com/galleria_images/90/90_main_f.jpg

This is a 2005 Aston Martin Daytona Prototype. It was built exactly to 2005 Daytona Prototype rules. It was able to compete in Grand-Am competition. It was perfectly legal. It used a legal chassis. With a legal engine. It is a race winning car. It is the only car of this kind to exist.

It is legal in FIVE non-ACCUS racing series. Why? Because ACCUS does not own Daytona Prototypes. It owns the name. Daytona Prototype. It does not own the cars. This car could (and indeed has) raced in DIRECTLY COMPETING SERIES.

You can. Not. License. Technical specifications. You can't. You are wrong. NASCAR cup cars compete every weekend around the world in various motorsport disciplines, including as-ran for almost ten years in ARCA, NASCARS DIRECT national competitor.

The Automobile Competition Committee for the United States (ACCUS) is an umbrella organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_organization) of auto racing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_racing) sanctioning bodies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_governing_body) in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). It is the official liaison of U.S. sanctioning bodies to the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C3%A9ration_Internationale_de_l%27Automobile). It was founded in 1955 to take over FIA representation when the American Automobile Association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Automobile_Association) withdrew from racing and dissolved the AAA Contest Board (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAA_Contest_Board).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Competition_Committee_for_the_United_States#cite_note-Capps_2000-1) ACCUS processes international competition licenses for drivers in the U.S. and provides homologation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homologation_(motorsport)) and record keeping.

NASCAR is a member of ACCUS. Who knows what agreements were made to allow it to run.

The technical rule set is what defines the race series and is therefore an integral part of that series' image and identity. Do you really think we would have an IndyCar with the same look and performance as the one we have had it not been for the licensing agreement? IndyCar would have sued immediately if the car had been identical but under a fictional name.

It's also why the Formula A is not an exact copy of a Formula 1 car.

The series is the product, and the product is defined by the rule set.

Shinzah
06-03-2016, 00:07
I give up.

I'll just wait for someone who actually know what they're talking about to contribute, now.

F1_Racer68
06-03-2016, 00:15
I give up.

I'll just wait for someone who actually know what they're talking about to contribute, now.

I'll do the same.

Shinzah
06-03-2016, 00:17
I'll do the same.

Please do. It's not like it's my day to day to know this field of information or anything.

F1_Racer68
06-03-2016, 00:32
Please do. It's not like it's my day to day to know this field of information or anything.

Give it a rest. It would be so easy to rip your previous post apart, but what would be the point?

So what? A Riley & Soctt chassis with a new body once raced in Super GT.... big deal.... it was because it was ALLOWED TO. In other words, an agreement was reached.

Why do you think Tony George and the IMS had to come up with a completely new car package when the CART/IRL split happened? BECAUSE CART OWNED THE RULE SET. They had to have something different to avoid lawsuits.

It doesn't matter what argument you want to try and throw out, it all comes back to the same thing... any racing series' identity is built around the technical package of their cars.

Why do you think there had to be NEGOTIATIONS between Super GT and DTM to come to a unified technical package? Or discussions between IMSA and ACO to agree to the use of the GTE spec in GTLM? Or between PWC and SRO in order for PWC to be able to allow GT3 cars?

How many more examples do you need before it becomes crystal clear that the sanctioning body that creates the rule set owns the rule set as part of their intellectual property?

Don't confuse Sporting Regulations with Technical Regulations. The Technical Regulations create the series' identity. It's plain and simple.

Shinzah
06-03-2016, 00:36
Why do you think Tony George and the IMS had to come up with a completely new car package when the CART/IRL split happened? BECAUSE CART OWNED THE RULE SET. They had to have something different to avoid lawsuits.


As someone who literally lived through this among people directly involved.

Lol.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Oh my god. Lol.

F1_Racer68
06-03-2016, 00:38
As someone who literally lived through this among people directly involved.

Lol.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Oh my god. Lol.

If that's the best response you can come up with, then I guess my point is made.

And that is now my last comment on the matter as I have better things to do on a Saturday night than to waste my time on this.

Shinzah
06-03-2016, 00:42
I am not going to get into the idiosyncrasies of the IRL/CART split on this forum, under advisement that it would lead to a very personal discussion that will result in hurt internet feelings.

The technical side however, dear lord, was the lowest possible thing on the George family, IMS or the Indy Racing Leagues mind at the time. That's all I have to say about that one.

Alexandre Bardet
06-03-2016, 12:28
hi guys

I noticed at the end of every description of each car on the first post there is this information:

(these are for the Chevrolet Corvette C7.R)
Motion Ratios: 0.71 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 30mm/s bump - 60mm/s rebound
Damper Transition, rear: 51mm/s bump - 95mm/s rebound
Unsprung mass: 45 / 55kg

I just wanted someone to explain me what do they mean and how can I use this information when messing with a setup, specially the bumps and rebounds.

AbeWoz
06-03-2016, 12:45
hi guys

I noticed at the end of every description of each car on the first post there is this information:

(these are for the Chevrolet Corvette C7.R)
Motion Ratios: 0.71 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 30mm/s bump - 60mm/s rebound
Damper Transition, rear: 51mm/s bump - 95mm/s rebound
Unsprung mass: 45 / 55kg

I just wanted someone to explain me what do they mean and how can I use this information when messing with a setup, specially the bumps and rebounds.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?32940-A-new-home-for-all-your-setups&p=1033985&viewfull=1#post1033985

Diamond_Eyes
06-03-2016, 13:04
hi guys

I noticed at the end of every description of each car on the first post there is this information:

(these are for the Chevrolet Corvette C7.R)
Motion Ratios: 0.71 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 30mm/s bump - 60mm/s rebound
Damper Transition, rear: 51mm/s bump - 95mm/s rebound
Unsprung mass: 45 / 55kg

I just wanted someone to explain me what do they mean and how can I use this information when messing with a setup, specially the bumps and rebounds.

you may fall asleep but http://www.kaztechnologies.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/A-Guide-To-Your-Dampers-Chapter-from-FSAE-Book-by-Jim-Kasprzak.pdf

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-03-2016, 13:09
hi guys

I noticed at the end of every description of each car on the first post there is this information:

(these are for the Chevrolet Corvette C7.R)
Motion Ratios: 0.71 / 0.78
Damper Transition, front: 30mm/s bump - 60mm/s rebound
Damper Transition, rear: 51mm/s bump - 95mm/s rebound
Unsprung mass: 45 / 55kg

I just wanted someone to explain me what do they mean and how can I use this information when messing with a setup, specially the bumps and rebounds.


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?32940-A-new-home-for-all-your-setups&p=1033985&viewfull=1#post1033985I short you can use that (and some extra data from in-game like weight and weight distribution etc.) to calculate suspension stiffness and how the dampers relate to the springs. And to save you some legwork I've already made a calculator that spits out these things. =)

Raeang
06-03-2016, 13:10
Hi Everyone,
Does the Dallara have KERS? I can see the indicator bar, which is the same as the FORMALA A cars, but when I press the KERS button nothing happens.
Cheers,
MM

hkraft300
06-03-2016, 13:20
No KERS. That's a "push-to-pass" over-boost function.

See here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45600-The-Physics-of-US-Race-Car-Pack&p=1245936&viewfull=1#post1245936

Raeang
06-03-2016, 13:30
No KERS. That's a "push-to-pass" over-boost function.

See here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45600-The-Physics-of-US-Race-Car-Pack&p=1245936&viewfull=1#post1245936


Thanks man. So if I am reading this correctly the boost will only activate if you shift at the appropriate time? Or is there a button needed to activate?

TheDoctor46
06-03-2016, 13:47
Yes, you can activate it by pressing the KERS button ;)

Raeang
06-03-2016, 13:56
Thanks Doc...so its both? You have to be at the power band and you have to press KERS?

danowat
06-03-2016, 14:05
Thinking about the Ford Fusion stock car, it's obviously overpowered and therefore quite easy to beat real world qualifying times, has anyone played with the restricter to try and get the car performing more to real life specs?

TheDoctor46
06-03-2016, 14:15
No, just press KERS when you want some help from overboost ;) Note: its only available in races (10shots/race) and time trail IIRC. Watch for the flash to disappear, then its active for 20s.

229318

Raeang
06-03-2016, 14:16
ah...got it! much appreciated!!

Tbolt47
06-03-2016, 14:20
Thinking about the Ford Fusion stock car, it's obviously overpowered and therefore quite easy to beat real world qualifying times, has anyone played with the restricter to try and get the car performing more to real life specs?

I haven't bothered trying the restrictor, I like the fact that they gave us the pre-2015 power :) but I guess if you want to run 2015/16 times then you need to tweak it some, run the Glen and reduce it until you get near to the real like times.

I've managed a 1:06.7 (TT so no overheating problems and fixed low fuel) and Ambrose holds the record there in 2014 with a 1:08.1 and we know that us sim drivers abuse the cars more than in real life, so I think the Fusion isn't that much quicker than the 2014 car (so is the interior). The 2015 qualifying time was only 1 second slower at 1:09.1 so not much slower.

danowat
06-03-2016, 14:31
1:06 is easy on soft tyres, but you can only really get one quick lap out of them before they get a bit warm!

Tbolt47
06-03-2016, 14:54
1:06 is easy on soft tyres, but you can only really get one quick lap out of them before they get a bit warm!

Well you are obviously a quicker drive than me then, so you might need to adjust the restrictor quite a bit.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-03-2016, 15:07
FWIW I checked the power output at the Test Track yesterday, Casey mentions 750 hp but it's really putting out 769 hp (it'll put out very nearly that at Sonoma as well). That's going to skew it a bit.

Tbolt47
06-03-2016, 15:20
FWIW I checked the power output at the Test Track yesterday, Casey mentions 750 hp but it's really putting out 769 hp (it'll put out very nearly that at Sonoma as well). That's going to skew it a bit.

Interesting, so the quoted 880hp (2014 power) in the game is wrong then, so the car is that bit quicker than it should be.

Tbolt47
06-03-2016, 15:44
1:06 is easy on soft tyres, but you can only really get one quick lap out of them before they get a bit warm!

So I realised I had not done that many laps there, so I did a few more and got a 1.05.7 with a potential of 1.05.2, so now I will try and get it in the 1.04s, which makes the car quite a bit quicker than it should be. What's your fastest lap there?

danowat
06-03-2016, 15:53
So I realised I had not done that many laps there, so I did a few more and got a 1.05.7 with a potential of 1.05.2, so now I will try and get it in the 1.04s, which makes the car quite a bit quicker than it should be. What's your fastest lap there?

High 1:05 with the default setup during a 6 lap race

Tbolt47
06-03-2016, 16:04
High 1:05 with the default setup during a 6 lap race

Nice.definitely too quick then. I don't know how you can get that quick with the default setup though - the default has the car as high as it can go and it's far too loose and soft for the Glen. If you adjusted things you'd easily be in the low 1.04.

danowat
06-03-2016, 16:11
Nice.definitely too quick then. I don't know how you can get that quick with the default setup though - the default has the car as high as it can go and it's far too loose and soft for the Glen. If you adjusted things you'd easily be in the low 1.04.

I found the default setup pretty good, but plenty of room for improvement.

Tbolt47
06-03-2016, 16:25
I found the default setup pretty good, but plenty of room for improvement.

It's too loose for me, I couldn't properly get the power down up through the esses or coming out of the outer loop.

Awong124
06-03-2016, 16:50
FWIW I checked the power output at the Test Track yesterday, Casey mentions 750 hp but it's really putting out 769 hp (it'll put out very nearly that at Sonoma as well). That's going to skew it a bit.

How do you check the power output?

Shinzah
06-03-2016, 16:58
How do you check the power output?

You can use the ingame telemetry hud, or you can use one of the external telemetry loggers (assuming there's one with UDP support for you on console.)

Awong124
06-03-2016, 17:06
You can use the ingame telemetry hud, or you can use one of the external telemetry loggers (assuming there's one with UDP support for you on console.)

It actually shows that figure in the telemetry HUD? I've never noticed that.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-03-2016, 17:27
It actually shows that figure in the telemetry HUD? I've never noticed that.It's right above the torque figure. =)

Tbolt47
07-03-2016, 10:46
Thinking about the Ford Fusion stock car, it's obviously overpowered and therefore quite easy to beat real world qualifying times, has anyone played with the restricter to try and get the car performing more to real life specs?

I don't think it's the Fusion, I think most tracks drive quicker in game. I've compared several track with real world times and they are all several seconds quicker.

Mahjik
07-03-2016, 14:16
The surprise from me with this pack, is the Aston Martin Vantage GT12. I'm not usually one for street cars, but even with the clunky gear box I really do enjoy driving this one.

hkraft300
08-03-2016, 09:18
Did a bunch of races today in the Dallara.
Wow. What a car!
Made some tweaks to level out a nice low ride, as Casey suggested, and the aero is just sublime. Gets a bit wobbly otherwise I think. Saw a fair few people struggle with it. Not that I'm quick in it: some of the TT PS4 times are 8+ seconds quicker already according to vrhive.
I'm curious why the rear damping numbers are so high on default. Gotta put it through Jussi's calculator yet.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
08-03-2016, 09:56
I'm curious why the rear damping numbers are so high on default. Gotta put it through Jussi's calculator yet.Really high aero cars often essentially lock off the suspension to prevent ride height variations for maximizing the underbody aero performance. One of the most important springs/dampers on an F1 car is really the tyre it's running on. =)

Making the setup of such a car closer to what a "normal" car would show can help with the mechanical grip side of things, but it might hurt the aero enough to make the car slower overall.

Too bad we don't have the possibility to adjust heave and roll damping separately like many of these cars do IRL (special suspension layouts). The FSAE spring/damper manual someone posted a while ago had great examples of various cars, for example there was a short section about really high aero cars having heave (up/down motion) damped close to critical in the slow speed area but the roll (left/right) damping could well be damped to 600-900% critical to really slow down the roll transients.

hkraft300
08-03-2016, 10:09
I remember reading that. I thought that'd go together with high spring rates, but the Dallara is stiff at the front and soft at the rear for default springs. Maybe that's where I'm losing some time: too much roll and the aero is going off more than it should but I've got mech grip saving my arse lol...
Tightened up the ratios and I've been out dragging everyone on the straights even without overboost :D
I expected more from the brakes, barely lock them at 100% pressure.

Is it me or does the FB sound suspiciously similar... :p

havocc
08-03-2016, 10:47
I remember reading that. I thought that'd go together with high spring rates, but the Dallara is stiff at the front and soft at the rear for default springs. Maybe that's where I'm losing some time: too much roll and the aero is going off more than it should but I've got mech grip saving my arse lol...
Tightened up the ratios and I've been out dragging everyone on the straights even without overboost :D
I expected more from the brakes, barely lock them at 100% pressure.

Is it me or does the FB sound suspiciously similar... :p

I haven't still worked on springs and dampers with dallara, open wheelers are very sensitive to setup changes and you immediately notice when you mess up...

hkraft300
08-03-2016, 11:10
True. Casey mentioned there are similarities between the FR3.5 and the DW12. I can't figure my way round tuning the Renault but the Indycar feels solid and I'm much more consistent in it already!

havocc
08-03-2016, 12:16
Dallara default is more understeery but feel clunky in tight corners and chicanes, on the other hand you feel you can push very hard on fast corners

Casey Ringley
08-03-2016, 15:37
Did a bunch of races today in the Dallara.
Wow. What a car!
Made some tweaks to level out a nice low ride, as Casey suggested, and the aero is just sublime. Gets a bit wobbly otherwise I think. Saw a fair few people struggle with it. Not that I'm quick in it: some of the TT PS4 times are 8+ seconds quicker already according to vrhive.
I'm curious why the rear damping numbers are so high on default. Gotta put it through Jussi's calculator yet.

Jussi covered it in much better detail, but I can confirm that word we got from the team is that the best baseline is a few clicks off full soft for the front dampers and a few clicks off full stiff for the rear. It's all about that stable aero platform.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
08-03-2016, 16:24
Jussi covered it in much better detail, but I can confirm that word we got from the team is that the best baseline is a few clicks off full soft for the front dampers and a few clicks off full stiff for the rear. It's all about that stable aero platform.Is there any reason you can conceive why they wouldn't run a more stiffly sprung but less overdamped rear end? They're obviously the experts when it comes to their car, but still, one wonders. =)

m355y
08-03-2016, 16:44
I find the Indycar really hard. I'm dropping pace lap on lap in it - starting off well, but gradually falling off the pace and having the AI right on me. I'm not sure whether it's that the AI is harder with this car, or whether it's an issue of the track/car combo I was using (Dubai), but it's not an issue I've really had before - you lose pace as the tyres wear sure, but this is different. It's like I just can't stay on the pace driving it.

F1_Racer68
08-03-2016, 19:59
I find the Indycar really hard. I'm dropping pace lap on lap in it - starting off well, but gradually falling off the pace and having the AI right on me. I'm not sure whether it's that the AI is harder with this car, or whether it's an issue of the track/car combo I was using (Dubai), but it's not an issue I've really had before - you lose pace as the tyres wear sure, but this is different. It's like I just can't stay on the pace driving it.

It is a car that requires 100% from the driver on every lap. I remember Simona De Silvestro once commented about how the F1 car was much easier to drive because of the power steering and that the IndyCars had to be "thrown" into the corners more. I haven't done enough laps in the Dallara to see if this "fatigue" translates over as well in game, but I imagine that even a small reduction in focus will result in big drops in laptimes.

RacingManiac
08-03-2016, 20:01
The big difference is we are not going to be that physically fatigue. Even running at max output I doubt our wheels are going to be matching the forces of the real car, nor are we exerting as much pedal effort.

And when we are playing when you think the effort is too high you can always turn the FFB down. The actual car is a function of fat slicks, lots of downforce, and no power steering...

F1_Racer68
08-03-2016, 20:04
Very true, but mental fatigue can still be a big factor. Even in a short 10 lap sprint, it may not be easy to be 100% on it for every lap. Especially the last few laps in a race with a very tight battle.

havocc
08-03-2016, 20:31
Very true, but mental fatigue can still be a big factor. Even in a short 10 lap sprint, it may not be easy to be 100% on it for every lap. Especially the last few laps in a race with a very tight battle.

And kers charges are over...

Walther9mm
09-03-2016, 16:49
Forgive me if it has already been mentioned. There is an issue with the Fusion StockCar. It has rain tires, but no windshield wipers. Lol Sonoma in the rain was a bit difficult, to say the least.

AbeWoz
09-03-2016, 16:56
Forgive me if it has already been mentioned. There is an issue with the Fusion StockCar. It has rain tires, but no windshield wipers. Lol Sonoma in the rain was a bit difficult, to say the least.

stock cars dont have windshield wipers, so i dont think this is an issue at all

RacingManiac
09-03-2016, 16:57
Sorta accurate with NASCAR though...lol

I think Goodyear makes rain tire for them for the wet races, they are just rarely used. In the lower rung series it happens more often and they actually ran with wiper sometimes.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2015/8/5/tech-talk-kenny-bruce-rain-tires-watkins-glen-wet-dry-damp-sprint-cup-xfinity.html

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2008/08/02/fellows-topper.jpg

Walther9mm
09-03-2016, 17:24
stock cars dont have windshield wipers, so i dont think this is an issue at all

I believe starting this year, even Sprint Cup will race in the the rain if they have to. Don't quote me on that. Lol The Xfinity series already has for the past few years, it is humorous when it happens.

I didn't have a problem with the omission of the wiper until round 2 of the single player tournament when it rained and it was near impossible to stay on track. To be clear, I think the job SMS did on this car is amazing. In my opinion, the tire and road feel are as good or better than the last time I drove iRacing's version of this car. Also love the difference in the 3 dry slicks. I wish the compounds in gt3 were as close in performance vs durability.