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B3ntley
05-03-2016, 18:04
Hi, I was curious as to what the performance differences were between the controller and a wheel. I know a wheel provides a more immersive feel, but is it faster than the controller? For example, turn in ability, or being able to turn the wheels more.

Thanks.

Krus Control
05-03-2016, 18:43
In general a wheel is faster everywhere in every car. In terms of best lap possible the gamepad is really close. The big thing with a wheel is you'll have less tire wear and probably use less fuel. Wheel is superior.

Azure Flare
05-03-2016, 18:43
Your steering inputs can be much, much smoother, so no unnecessary weight transfer to upset the car. You would also be able to catch a slide much easier.

Diamond_Eyes
05-03-2016, 18:52
Your steering inputs can be much, much smoother, so no unnecessary weight transfer to upset the car. You would also be able to catch a slide much easier.

With my DS4 controller I always keep the gas on & then add the brakes at same time if my rear starts coming around.

Controller probably a slightly blunt instrument compared to a wheel. Be able to add some finesse to your driving with a wheel and interpret the feel of the FFB signal way better. I'm saving for one.

Sankyo
05-03-2016, 19:13
IMO it all depends on skill how fast you are with either. You have slow wheel users and fast controller users. The fastest guys on the leaderboards usually have wheels because they're the ones really into sim racing and therefore have the 'serious' equipment for immersion, fun and bragging rights.

RomKnight
05-03-2016, 20:24
more than pad vs wheel, having this times on novice and all assists on worries me.

http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1552853772&vehicle=1817703058

Yeah, I can do 2.03's on pro, no assists and fully manual (no clutch) but still, it is way more difficult to maintain pace especially on a race and more so at night when driving line is allowed (can't be disabled) and not on the same view (5% here, ofc :) )

So, pad users SHOULD be able to be on the ballpark IMO but because of all the filters and stuff, being able to compete head to head on leaderboards... I'm still not convinced even bragging rights considered (but that's me)

Salty Dog
06-03-2016, 02:34
Im faster on my dual shock than wheel, i also think it has less lag and is a lot more crisp and responsive, its harder to use than a wheel but the very nature of a DS makes it quicker to use imo.

Ive just bought a t150, even though its plugged into the PS4 with all the right settings, theres not one game im faster on it and its not me, its the physics of both, a wheel and pedals takes more physical time to use, its impossible for my reaction times to be quicker on the wheel, the fact is my reaction times are the same on each but the DS translates things so much faster.


Leaderboards dont mean much because a wheel is the natural evolution for a gamer, seems nearly everybody uses one who is into sim in a more serious way, and they are a lot more immersive so i think the controllers get left behind a bit as they arnt as much fun, but each has advantages and i dont think anybody is at to big of a disadvantage with a pad if your good with it.

cheers

Haiden
06-03-2016, 15:21
Im faster on my dual shock than wheel, i also think it has less lag and is a lot more crisp and responsive, its harder to use than a wheel but the very nature of a DS makes it quicker to use imo.

Ive just bought a t150, even though its plugged into the PS4 with all the right settings, theres not one game im faster on it and its not me, its the physics of both, a wheel and pedals takes more physical time to use, its impossible for my reaction times to be quicker on the wheel, the fact is my reaction times are the same on each but the DS translates things so much faster.


Leaderboards dont mean much because a wheel is the natural evolution for a gamer, seems nearly everybody uses one who is into sim in a more serious way, and they are a lot more immersive so i think the controllers get left behind a bit as they arnt as much fun, but each has advantages and i dont think anybody is at to big of a disadvantage with a pad if your good with it.

cheers


IMO, that doesn't really make sense. Because if that was the case, then I'm pretty sure professional drivers would have controller-style inputs in the cockpit. :) At the very least, a wheel will always afford you more steering precision, and steering precision is key for placing your car on the correct line.

Not saying this is the case, but often, people are just slower with the wheel because they haven't given themselves enough time to adapt. It takes a while to start being able to utilize the full dynamic range of feedback--a range that is so much more complex than the controller--and just the feel of it in general. Depending on how often you play, it could take a couple months to full adjust to a wheel, especially if your a long time controller user. IMO, one of the major differences between controller and wheel users, is controller users are mostly driving from memory. Through trial and error, they learn which gear to be in for which corner, and what speed to take it. They don't feel tire scrub, but eventually figure out that's what's happening and make adjustments. So it takes controller users longer to master tracks, and they are often less adaptive in races (not all, but in general). If they don't get their preferred line, they aren't as effective, because they aren't feeling the full dynamic range of feedback. When racing wheel to wheel and heading into a corner, I know whether or not I have the grip to hold that line, because I can feel it. A wheel user can basically play the game with the sound turned off, as long as they can see their RPMs. I don't think a controller user could do that, because they need sound to detect slip way more than a wheel user. That says a lot.

Fractured Life
06-03-2016, 15:40
I don't think a controller user could do that, because they need sound to detect slip way more than a wheel user. That says a lot.

I need the sound more for hearing the revs when in a pack. Have you used the controllers much Haiden? The big thing for me moving from 360 to Xbox One is the amount of feedback they have packed into the controller this generation. The triggers seem to give a much better feeling with their own little motors inside. Maybe it's just me but I feel like I can now tell when I'm scrubbing up as there is a decent level of feedback on slip since a few patches back. Could be just me lol. It's not a wheel, and I feel a wheel should be faster most likely for overall pace and mainly easier on tyres, but comparing the pads directly to the previous generation we are getting so much more feedback now. It used to basically be you could feel the kerbs, now I can feel so much more, when the rears are taking a pounding on exits and when the fronts are passed the optimum slip angle and I'm about to start understeering being the most useful.

Could be my imagination helping though!

Haiden
06-03-2016, 17:16
I need the sound more for hearing the revs when in a pack. Have you used the controllers much Haiden? The big thing for me moving from 360 to Xbox One is the amount of feedback they have packed into the controller this generation. The triggers seem to give a much better feeling with their own little motors inside. Maybe it's just me but I feel like I can now tell when I'm scrubbing up as there is a decent level of feedback on slip since a few patches back. Could be just me lol. It's not a wheel, and I feel a wheel should be faster most likely for overall pace and mainly easier on tyres, but comparing the pads directly to the previous generation we are getting so much more feedback now. It used to basically be you could feel the kerbs, now I can feel so much more, when the rears are taking a pounding on exits and when the fronts are passed the optimum slip angle and I'm about to start understeering being the most useful.

Could be my imagination helping though!

I haven't played PCars with the controller, but used to play Forza 5 with it. Definitely more feedback in modern controllers. But rumble isn't the same as wheel FFB, weight transfer, scrub, acceleration and deceleration, are different in the wheel to name a few. And while you might feel the rumble of curbs and bumps, you don't really feel there effect on the tires in terms of how they drag your steering. You also don't feel the effects of weight when cresting hills. You know to slow down, because it's common sense, but you don't feel the traction loss. :)

slimzlim
06-03-2016, 17:55
I think with an wheel you can have also a better consistency, very important in a race.
I see a lot of people with pad in multiplayer, they don't do constant laps. :)

Panopticism
07-03-2016, 00:19
With a gamepad, I am slower by anywhere from one to six seconds depending on track. Some tracks are very point-and-shoot(e.g. Monza, Hockenheimring) and that suits the gamepad reasonably well. Some very technical (e.g. Imola, Zolder, Laguna Seca, Sonoma) or heavily momentum-dependent circuits (e.g. Brno, Silverstone, Spa) I find very punishing on the gamepad. I just don't have the same level of precision with where I can put the car on the track.

Salty Dog
08-03-2016, 17:33
IMO, that doesn't really make sense. Because if that was the case, then I'm pretty sure professional drivers would have controller-style inputs in the cockpit. :) At the very least, a wheel will always afford you more steering precision, and steering precision is key for placing your car on the correct line.

Not saying this is the case, but often, people are just slower with the wheel because they haven't given themselves enough time to adapt. It takes a while to start being able to utilize the full dynamic range of feedback--a range that is so much more complex than the controller--and just the feel of it in general. Depending on how often you play, it could take a couple months to full adjust to a wheel, especially if your a long time controller user. IMO, one of the major differences between controller and wheel users, is controller users are mostly driving from memory. Through trial and error, they learn which gear to be in for which corner, and what speed to take it. They don't feel tire scrub, but eventually figure out that's what's happening and make adjustments. So it takes controller users longer to master tracks, and they are often less adaptive in races (not all, but in general). If they don't get their preferred line, they aren't as effective, because they aren't feeling the full dynamic range of feedback. When racing wheel to wheel and heading into a corner, I know whether or not I have the grip to hold that line, because I can feel it. A wheel user can basically play the game with the sound turned off, as long as they can see their RPMs. I don't think a controller user could do that, because they need sound to detect slip way more than a wheel user. That says a lot.

LOL it would be pretty damn hard in a car to use a PS4 stick to move the car around haha, im not sure im with you there, race drivers can only go so small with a wheel before it becomes unpractical.

I agree the feedback and feeling in controllers is pretty poor, nothing like a wheel, but imo the very nature of a controller makes them quicker to react if theres very little or no visual lag to the eye.

Lets look at it this way, if we had a comparison side by side with you on a wheel and me on a controller.

Who do you think would be able to turn the wheel from left to right fastest? obviously the pad because its less distance to move, its phsically impossible to do it faster on a wheel, you only have 1cm each way on a pad compared to a huge amount for the wheel, same goes for throttle but its not as evident as steering, its part of the reason devs put inbuilt lag into pads, to mimmic the time it takes to use a wheel, a prime example of this inbuilt lag was in Sebastien Loeb rally until they patched it, they admitted they did just that for that very reason.

But theres a trade off, its harder to steer with a controller and imo harder to be consistent.

havocc
08-03-2016, 18:21
LOL it would be pretty damn hard in a car to use a PS4 stick to move the car around haha, im not sure im with you there, race drivers can only go so small with a wheel before it becomes unpractical.


Accelerating with cruise control buttons feels so weird on my car :D

3800racingfool
08-03-2016, 19:04
Having used both a controller and a wheel I'll say this:

It's not about whether or not you can be faster with a wheel or controller. In reality, either method is just as fast as the other. It's just how you achieve being faster as they are really two differing driving styles. It's quicker to turn full-lock left to full-lock right using a pad since you can flick a thumbstick left/right much more quickly than you can turn a wheel. However you lack a certain amount of fine control. This is especially notable with brake and throttle application. Depending on the gamepad you're using you'll either be using a pair of buttons or a pair of soft triggers to control your brake/throttle. Neither of these offer the level of fine control that a set of pedals do. So you're forced to compensate for this by making more deliberate actions and thereby decreasing your margin of error by a significant amount. Wheel/pedal users don't need to worry about this as they have a much finer level of control afforded to them making subtle corrections is much simpler and easier.

So, in essence, they're both just as fast. However, in my experience and opinion, it's easier to be fast with a wheel than it is with a controller because you have a much finer level of control and a larger margin of error. The guys who do use a controller full-time and are fast deserve props because the level of control needed to knock down those last few tenths is greatly reduced.

Chin
09-03-2016, 21:07
LOL it would be pretty damn hard in a car to use a PS4 stick to move the car around haha, im not sure im with you there, race drivers can only go so small with a wheel before it becomes unpractical.

I agree the feedback and feeling in controllers is pretty poor, nothing like a wheel, but imo the very nature of a controller makes them quicker to react if theres very little or no visual lag to the eye.

Lets look at it this way, if we had a comparison side by side with you on a wheel and me on a controller.

Who do you think would be able to turn the wheel from left to right fastest? obviously the pad because its less distance to move, its phsically impossible to do it faster on a wheel, you only have 1cm each way on a pad compared to a huge amount for the wheel, same goes for throttle but its not as evident as steering, its part of the reason devs put inbuilt lag into pads, to mimmic the time it takes to use a wheel, a prime example of this inbuilt lag was in Sebastien Loeb rally until they patched it, they admitted they did just that for that very reason.

But theres a trade off, its harder to steer with a controller and imo harder to be consistent.

Smooth is fast....0-to-full lock in an instant is not smooth. Just because you can get full lock quicker on a pad doesn't mean it translates to being faster.

Watkinsglen151515
10-03-2016, 01:45
I use the controller. Only issue I have is on corners where you don't need heavy steering input. I have to tap the controller really fast to keep it smooth.

hkraft300
10-03-2016, 09:24
Smooth is fast....0-to-full lock in an instant is not smooth. Just because you can get full lock quicker on a pad doesn't mean it translates to being faster.

Excuse me? :D

I haven't come across a situation where steering quickly lock to lock has helped me in game. Not at the Bus stop at Spa. Not at the chicanery at Zolder or Monza. Not even counter steering...


I use the controller. Only issue I have is on corners where you don't need heavy steering input. I have to tap the controller really fast to keep it smooth.

OR you could hold the stick at a slight angle, just enough to keep your line.

Motorhead Racer
10-03-2016, 10:24
Honestly depends on the type of race I have found, as a controller user...

Most of the Formula cars, to me are almost impossible to handle, they require that smooth driving which is much easier to achieve with a wheel...
More regualr cars, such as GT3 I find you can be much more competitive, the only issue comes from longer races where tyre wear becomes an issue, due to the fact that you can't 'feel' understeer so well and tend to 'scrub' the front tyres leading to a higher rate of wear

hkraft300
10-03-2016, 10:41
Funny I find the open wheel, LMP and aero heavy cars easier to drive than GT3/4/road cars!

Miths
01-04-2016, 22:43
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the motion controller option for the DS4, but I guess very few gamepad players ever bother trying to take the days or weeks it takes to get used to it and just stick to what they know (left stick).

Before I relocated to another country a few years ago I had been a fairly avid racing game fan - everything from pure PC sims to console arcade racers, using a Logitech G25 the last five or six years of that time.
I haven't yet committed to buying a good wheel here in my home (gave it a try with a cheap Thrustmaster T100 for my PS4, used it for a couple of weeks and it has since been gathering dust in a closet for months. Didn't like it, and frankly also no longer like the living room furniture rearranging for 30-90 minutes game sessions), but started using motion controls in Project Cars and DriveClub when they both added that feature around the same time last year. I haven't done any lap time testing with motion control steering vs wheel, but motion controls do fix the major issue anyone without an extremely gentle and precise touch has with using a thumbstick for steering - smoothness, persistence and precision.

I'm really hoping more future PS4 racing games - sim or arcade - will include optional motion controls. It's annoying to go back to the left stick after so many dozens of hours with smooth controller tilting in Project Cars and DriveClub.

Olijke Poffer
02-04-2016, 16:06
Yeah I like the motion controll steering as well. You have to get used to it but once you do it feels great. Altough it will become a bit heavy on the arms after long sessions. Other than that it is great.

What are your settings of the controller? @Miths

Alt_Oid
10-11-2016, 13:09
The controller isn't necessarily slow -- in fact controller users can be nearly as fast as wheel+pedals users. The key is 1) getting the controller's settings right, and 2) knowing how to set up the car correctly for your particular control system. As others have already said, controllers reduce your ability to make small input changes. SO, that means that you'll want to 1) set the controller up with less sensitivity than default, and 2) set the car up to be less twitchy, with a little more understeer. A track like Bathurst is great to do this because it's not super-long yet has enough variety of corners and weight-shift situations to find the weaknesses of your setup very quickly. That said, in the end the wheel+pedals will always be faster, IF the driver can extract the most out of each. A driver who has already set the car up well for the controller, will already have a very stable setup for the wheel. At this point all the driver needs to do is just dial in more oversteer and instability to extract the most out of the wheel+pedals setup's range of input. The wheel+pedals makes it easier to drive a looser, less stable car setup (which is generally faster).

I use both a Fanatec CSR wheel+pedals setup as well as an Xbox360 wired controller for PCars on the PC. I put a lot more time on my Xbox controller, unfortunately, because I'm in grad school and the controller is simply faster to set up / play / put away. I generally do a lot of time trial on the Xbox controller with no assists and only the auto-clutch. I've barely gotten into the career mode. The ratio of time I spend tuning vs driving is 2:1. At the time of this writing, I'm third-fastest on Bathurst in a RUF CTR, using the controller with no assists except auto-clutch:
http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=921120824&vehicle=2017392050

Zpectre87
10-11-2016, 14:36
The wheel is far more precise and, to be able to push, you have to trust your equipment and its inputs. I trust my G27's inputs far more than those of my Xbox One controller, although it took me a while to lap faster with the wheel.

The advantage of the wheel compared to the controller is consistency. The controller's speed limit is not much below the wheel's, which is why it's possible to be very fast with one, but can you do it consistently? That's the biggest thing.

The controller is not difficult when properly set up, though. As Alt_Oid said, it does not even require assists even when driving the hardest cars.

poirqc
10-11-2016, 22:20
At some point, you can get fast enough with any input device. It's just more enjoyable to drive a car with a wheel.

Haiden
11-11-2016, 00:11
The wheel is far more precise and, to be able to push, you have to trust your equipment and its inputs. I trust my G27's inputs far more than those of my Xbox One controller, although it took me a while to lap faster with the wheel.

The advantage of the wheel compared to the controller is consistency. The controller's speed limit is not much below the wheel's, which is why it's possible to be very fast with one, but can you do it consistently? That's the biggest thing.

The controller is not difficult when properly set up, though. As Alt_Oid said, it does not even require assists even when driving the hardest cars.

Very true. You can be fast with a controller, but you don't have nearly the amount of feedback to work with. I think it requires a lot more practice to be fast on controller, because you end up driving more from memory than feel. You learn what gear you can take a corner in and at what speed. You're fine, as long as the conditions you know are met and you get to drive the line you practiced. But I don't see controller players being as consistent as wheel users. Nor are they as flexible in terms of being able to drive different lines. They're also really hard to overtake, because they're always twitching, and I never know which way they going to go. :)

hkraft300
11-11-2016, 01:55
It hasn't taken me long to match my old lap times when I got a G29. Tried a few ffb philosophy but I'm happy with default (-clipping).
I do find I can make the suspension a bit stiffer with a wheel, I'm far more consistent and, yes, it's so much more fun.

Also I didn't have the precision on a gamepad to drive the older cars. I didn't enjoy GT3/E/4. I liked but couldn't properly experience 80% of the cars in the game.

But now... Wow.

Alt_Oid
11-11-2016, 08:48
Indeed, the wheel+pedals setup is far more fun and immersive, and provides more information to the driver as to what the car is doing. Consistency definitely favors wheel+pedals, as Zpectre87 said.

I'd say the only clear advantage a controller user has over a wheel user is during long PCars sessions or high lapcount / endurance races. Those force feedback sensations will tire you out faster (unless you reduce them). A controller user will be able to run a longer race with less overall fatigue, with the caveat being strained hands.

My own weakness during online races is that my hands sometimes sweat in the early laps and other times when least convenient! Nothing is worse than nailing that corner correctly whilst in the lead...and then the thumbstick slips from your sweaty finger causing you to go off or crash! Aghhh! I should probably invest in racing gloves even when using the controller, lol :)

hkraft300
11-11-2016, 10:17
I'd say the only clear advantage a controller user has over a wheel user is during long PCars sessions or high lapcount / endurance races. Those force feedback sensations will tire you out faster (unless you reduce them). A controller user will be able to run a longer race with less overall fatigue, with the caveat being strained hands.


Oh I'd disagree. I've done 1 hour races with the pad and my hands were T-Rex after! Also, as mentioned before, if you're not consistent you're struggling in a long race anyway, with wheel or pad that's an issue I suppose but it's that much harder with the pad.
With the G29 it's a breeze, but with stronger ffb wheels I can see the fatigue being a problem.

wooddylan170
11-11-2016, 12:52
Well one thing is for sure. You'll be much faster then on a keyboard :cool:!

hkraft300
11-11-2016, 14:11
Well one thing is for sure. You'll be much faster then on a keyboard :cool:!

That's horrible!
Although, I see the flick-steerers in public MP sometimes and I wonder why they bother.
May as well steer with the D-pad :rolleyes:

Haiden
11-11-2016, 14:19
I also think one advantage a controller user has is actually the lack of the feedback, or it can be. When a wheel user runs over curbs and/or catches forces that pull or destabilize the steering wheel (not the tires), they have to fight the pull to stay on line. A controller user can't feel grip levels, but they also can't feel those wheel jerks that pull the steering wheel and make you blow your racing line when snatch a little too much curb. In the end, I think it evens out, because they can't feel grip and vertical load shifts, but not feeling wheel pull can be useful on some tracks, because they can swing just a tad wider before corner entry and use more track.

Riccardo De Rosa
11-11-2016, 18:23
I hope multiplayer pcars2 there is the possibility to exclude users with different devices. I would like to have the option to select only users with the steering wheel or only users with the gamepad or a mix.
I think there are advantages and disadvantages with different peripherals.

wooddylan170
12-11-2016, 00:58
I also think one advantage a controller user has is actually the lack of the feedback, or it can be. When a wheel user runs over curbs and/or catches forces that pull or destabilize the steering wheel (not the tires), they have to fight the pull to stay on line. A controller user can't feel grip levels, but they also can't feel those wheel jerks that pull the steering wheel and make you blow your racing line when snatch a little too much curb. In the end, I think it evens out, because they can't feel grip and vertical load shifts, but not feeling wheel pull can be useful on some tracks, because they can swing just a tad wider before corner entry and use more track.

Unless they use a wheel with no FFB. I used to play using a wheel that had 0 FFB and it felt like I was about to rip the wheel of its base! It was a step up from a controller and I found it was faster and more precise. Best way to find which is better? Go round the Karussel on the Nordschliefe with a controller and a wheel and see the difference. I've spun out so many times using a controller. Wheel? Not once


That's horrible!
Although, I see the flick-steerers in public MP sometimes and I wonder why they bother.
May as well steer with the D-pad :rolleyes:

Never use the D-pad, that's what I say. I was a "flick-steerer" but would occasionally get some precision using the joystick. Never mastered it as I went a bought a G27 and haven't looked back (love the clutch and H-shifter ;)). Mind you guys like xMattyG and TRLlimitless use a controller when playing F1 2016 and they are about as precise as some wheel users, so it's not impossible.

andreapedros
12-11-2016, 10:11
looking at tt leaderboards, it's a fact that there are drivers using pad as fast as wheel users, sometimes even faster. difference is that with wheel you're simulating driving, with pad you're videogaming. for example, it's possible for a slow driver in real life cars to become a monster in virtual racing using the pad, since it's a completely different way to drive; more or less, like you can be the worst football player in the world, and be a genius on fifa anyway. personally i don't care whether i'm faster with a wheel or not: is more about fun and immersion

poirqc
12-11-2016, 12:20
looking at tt leaderboards, it's a fact that there are drivers using pad as fast as wheel users, sometimes even faster. difference is that with wheel you're simulating driving, with pad you're videogaming. for example, it's possible for a slow driver in real life cars to become a monster in virtual racing using the pad, since it's a completely different way to drive; more or less, like you can be the worst football player in the world, and be a genius on fifa anyway. personally i don't care whether i'm faster with a wheel or not: is more about fun and immersion

You summed my view pretty well!

I have a friend who can play a right handed quitar the other way around even if he natually play left handed. He's a seasonned guitar player, yet he can barely play Guitar Hero! :)

hkraft300
12-11-2016, 23:24
RC racers drive with gamepads!

There are guys like texastyme214 on PS4, super fast and consistent.

joelsantos24
13-11-2016, 18:04
Yeah, speed and consistency aren't a wheel exclusive, in any given way. But the wheel is indeed far better at controlling the car, and makes turning easier and much smoother, to begin with. I race with my DS4 controller, and I do find it hard to control the car, coming out of hard corners. Too much directional input, and the car loses control.

bm96
14-11-2016, 09:43
Use the wheel and pedals despite any performance difference lol

I think a lot of you are missing the point of a video game which is to have fun. :smile-new:

ReadingRich
14-11-2016, 09:57
I got my wheel a couple of weeks ago and it's made Project Cars a new game again.
So much fun.

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 10:11
I think a lot of you are missing the point of a video game which is to have fun. :smile-new:

Fun? Video game? Pfft
Mate I'm SIM racing to win.
Podium or gtfo o.O

Lol :p

Edit: get used to the ffb/set it to your liking and your lap times should drop below controller levels.

Indigo121
14-11-2016, 11:11
I think since games provide certain settings to adapt to controllers, like Controller Filtering, Soft Steering Dampening, etc, they are essentially giving a (necessary) difficulty discount to the controller user. So you can't really compare the two.

My lap times have so far improved only slightly since moving from controller to a wheel. Playing with controller in a sense is easier because, since you push that little stick to maximum on most turns, you are essentially only gauging speed and timing on each turn, not steering angle.

With a wheel you gauge speed, timing, AND steering angle. That extra dimension of freedom is much less limiting, but also causes more room for error. And, as mentioned, it takes longer to turn a wheel a full turn than flicking a tiny stick.

So moving to a wheel you do raise your glass ceiling, albeit for most users, not by a lot.
And of course it feels more real and nicer.

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 12:16
I think since games provide certain settings to adapt to controllers, like Controller Filtering, Soft Steering Dampening, etc, they are essentially giving a (necessary) difficulty discount to the controller user. So you can't really compare the two.

My lap times have so far improved only slightly since moving from controller to a wheel. Playing with controller in a sense is easier because...

1) ...since you push that little stick to maximum on most turns, you are essentially only gauging speed and timing on each turn, not steering angle.

With a wheel you gauge speed, timing, AND steering angle. That extra dimension of freedom is much less limiting, but also causes more room for error...

2) And, as mentioned, it takes longer to turn a wheel a full turn than flicking a tiny stick.

So moving to a wheel you do raise your glass ceiling, albeit for most users, not by a lot.
And of course it feels more real and nicer.

1) there goes your tyre life! More room for error? The precision and range of input afforded by the wheel allows for less error. I used the thumbstick like a wheel (half tilt ~= half steering lock), and the tiniest error sent me off. But the many settings of pcars does allow the use of thumbstick as you see fit.

2) moot point, once you adjust the steering ratio to your liking so your arms aren't flailing about. For a wheel I recommend 13.5:1 for GT cars and ~11:1 for open wheel.

eiwhatsup
14-11-2016, 12:20
It could take you more than one year to get used to playing with a wheel when coming from a controller. I agree same happened to me, but in the end I managed to score better times with the wheel 8t300 gte here). I also agree there might be some instances or tracks where I still perfrom better/faster with the controller

Indigo121
14-11-2016, 12:28
1) there goes your tyre life! More room for error? The precision and range of input afforded by the wheel allows for less error. I used the thumbstick like a wheel (half tilt ~= half steering lock), and the tiniest error sent me off. But the many settings of pcars does allow the use of thumbstick as you see fit.

2) moot point, once you adjust the steering ratio to your liking so your arms aren't flailing about. For a wheel I recommend 13.5:1 for GT cars and ~11:1 for open wheel.

1) I think I must have had different settings because I managed to tone down the input to such a degree than I pushed it the whole way on each turn and it worked quite well. I only had to go into the turn with the right speed.

2) But then you get a wheel that is too sensitive. you can't deny the fact that on a real racing wheel you DO turn the wheel slower than a flick of a thumb, no? That is the necessary trade-off of having a wheel as opposed to a tiny stick.

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 13:50
1) I think I must have had different settings because I managed to tone down the input to such a degree than I pushed it the whole way on each turn and it worked quite well. I only had to go into the turn with the right speed.

2) But then you get a wheel that is too sensitive. you can't deny the fact that on a real racing wheel you DO turn the wheel slower than a flick of a thumb, no? That is the necessary trade-off of having a wheel as opposed to a tiny stick.

1) that reminds me of FM5 steering with the gamepad. I could barely make tight chicanes in the Lotus F1 car in that game! Did you set high controller filtering/speed sensitivity? Useful tools for gamepad racing in pcars.

2)
How is that a trade-off when you'd never need to turn the wheel so fast? Whether shooting through the chicanes in an Indy/FA/Lotus at Monza or Monaco, you're not struggling for steering "speed" (angular velocity) to make the turn, are you? If you happen to steer too fast, whether wheel or controller, you'll lose grip at the front and/or rear, at least momentarily.
That said, I was following a buddy through the bus Stop at Watkins GP. He was in the M3 GT hitting each kerb just enough to lift the inside front wheel and still pull away. Mad wheel skills!

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 13:54
It could take you more than one year to get used to playing with a wheel when coming from a controller. I agree same happened to me, but in the end I managed to score better times with the wheel 8t300 gte here). I also agree there might be some instances or tracks where I still perfrom better/faster with the controller

I wouldn't say it takes that long to make the switch. Depends how many hours you put in, ffb settings, minor car setup adjustments. It's taken me ~20 hours (1 month). Now I'm just as fast, if not faster, I'm much more consistent, can race longer and drive more cars.

eiwhatsup
14-11-2016, 14:18
I wouldn't say it takes that long to make the switch. Depends how many hours you put in, ffb settings, minor car setup adjustments. It's taken me ~20 hours (1 month). Now I'm just as fast, if not faster, I'm much more consistent, can race longer and drive more cars.It depends on the person man. You're an enthusiast and so you adapted that quickly, but for the medium user like me it could very well take months

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 14:32
It depends on the person man. You're an enthusiast and so you adapted that quickly, but for the medium user like me it could very well take months

Most definitely. I've seen more than a few guys fiddle with ffb settings when they made the switch and just kept struggling, eventually dropping the game.
Didn't take me long to decide on ffb: all default just reduced steering gain. It's giving me the most natural ffb, responds like the cars I've driven so its quickly familiar so there's little time wasted in re-learning.
Also being an enthusiast does help in that I knew what setup changes I'd have to make to adapt that much more quickly eg steering ratios- just have a flick through the G29 thread of people struggling with too much steering wheel rotation!

Indigo121
14-11-2016, 15:05
2)
How is that a trade-off when you'd never need to turn the wheel so fast? Whether shooting through the chicanes in an Indy/FA/Lotus at Monza or Monaco, you're not struggling for steering "speed" (angular velocity) to make the turn, are you? If you happen to steer too fast, whether wheel or controller, you'll lose grip at the front and/or rear, at least momentarily.
That said, I was following a buddy through the bus Stop at Watkins GP. He was in the M3 GT hitting each kerb just enough to lift the inside front wheel and still pull away. Mad wheel skills!

Well, I have noticed just recently that turning the wheel fast (like in a chicane as you mention) does help decrease the car's "response time", lets say. Maybe I was turning it too slow. My wheel made nasty crunching noises so I was kinda too gentle with it...

I.E. If you tend to enter turns a bit late, like I sometimes do, then being physically quick on the wheel can actually help.

Haiden
14-11-2016, 15:46
It depends on the person man. You're an enthusiast and so you adapted that quickly, but for the medium user like me it could very well take months


Most definitely. I've seen more than a few guys fiddle with ffb settings when they made the switch and just kept struggling, eventually dropping the game.
Didn't take me long to decide on ffb: all default just reduced steering gain. It's giving me the most natural ffb, responds like the cars I've driven so its quickly familiar so there's little time wasted in re-learning.
Also being an enthusiast does help in that I knew what setup changes I'd have to make to adapt that much more quickly eg steering ratios- just have a flick through the G29 thread of people struggling with too much steering wheel rotation!

I think the hardest part about switching is learning to use the pedals, not the wheel. Even switching from title to title (PCars, AC, R3E, Forza, etc), it's usually the pedal work that takes me the longest to adjust to. Each sim has slightly different braking models.

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 19:09
Well, I have noticed just recently that turning the wheel fast (like in a chicane as you mention) does help decrease the car's "response time", lets say. Maybe I was turning it too slow. My wheel made nasty crunching noises so I was kinda too gentle with it...

I.E. If you tend to enter turns a bit late, like I sometimes do, then being physically quick on the wheel can actually help.

Ye for sure. Hairpin at Hock GP for example if you're not quick on the wheel you lose too much time at that corner running wide.


I think the hardest part about switching is learning to use the pedals, not the wheel. Even switching from title to title (PCars, AC, R3E, Forza, etc), it's usually the pedal work that takes me the longest to adjust to. Each sim has slightly different braking models.

Ye it took me a bit to get used to the braking on the G29 pedals. Initially I had them calibrated for big stomps then the pedal box would slide so I've had to back it off lol
Do the different Sims really feel that different on brakes? Can you work around that with sensitivity and calibration settings?

Haiden
14-11-2016, 19:40
Ye it took me a bit to get used to the braking on the G29 pedals. Initially I had them calibrated for big stomps then the pedal box would slide so I've had to back it off lol
Do the different Sims really feel that different on brakes? Can you work around that with sensitivity and calibration settings?

PCars and R3E seem to be the most similar in terms of braking. I can't remember Forza. It's been a while since I've played, but I do recall the braking being different. Assetto Corsa is the most unique of the three I'm racing now. You have to be very light and smooth with the braking. Far more so than the others. There's also no brake pressure setting in AC car setup, and no global sensitivity setting for the brake. If you have pressure settings in a PC driver control panel, you can use those. My V3 pedals have adjustable brake pressure @wheel, but that's only if you have the pedals plugged into the wheel. I have mine directly connected via USB, so I adjust the sensitivity at the wheel level.

It's kind of weird. If I've been away from AC for a while (few weeks), it can sometimes take me an hour or so to get back into the braking, and then even more to rediscover the flow and start hitting my best times. But as long as I keep it in the mix, I can bounce between titles, needed only a few laps to adjust to AC's braking.

Grijo
14-11-2016, 23:09
I bought a G29 and a wheel stand only a week ago. I did my first run on saturday and I have to say: Wow! Project Cars is a new game for me now! Some cars were horrible in a gamepad. I tried everything to turn the Audi R8 pleasureable to race in the DS4. But I couldn't do it. Now, every car is, at least good. I think I will play another 600 hours

Haiden
15-11-2016, 00:17
I bought a G29 and a wheel stand only a week ago. I did my first run on saturday and I have to say: Wow! Project Cars is a new game for me now! Some cars were horrible in a gamepad. I tried everything to turn the Audi R8 pleasureable to race in the DS4. But I couldn't do it. Now, every car is, at least good. I think I will play another 600 hours

That's how I felt when I first switched to a wheel. I always knew it was better, but I just didn't realize how much it transformed the experience. Enjoy. :)

Grijo
15-11-2016, 00:27
That's how I felt when I first switched to a wheel. I always knew it was better, but I just didn't realize how much it transformed the experience. Enjoy. :)

Thanks Haiden, I'm already enjoying, a lot!;)

joelsantos24
15-11-2016, 08:38
Use the wheel and pedals despite any performance difference lol

I think a lot of you are missing the point of a video game which is to have fun. :smile-new:
Totally agreed. Which is precisely the reason I never bought a driving wheel, and never will. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't have fun with a game, emphasis on the word game, using the ordinary controller or without having to buy alternative peripherals, then probably you shouldn't be playing that game in the first place.

hkraft300
15-11-2016, 09:49
I had fun playing pcars for a year with a gamepad. It's the first game that's made me go out and spend on a wheel.
What do you know! This game is so much more fun with a wheel that I consider the money well worth spent.

Alt_Oid
15-11-2016, 10:06
Oh I'd disagree. I've done 1 hour races with the pad and my hands were T-Rex after! Also, as mentioned before, if you're not consistent you're struggling in a long race anyway, with wheel or pad that's an issue I suppose but it's that much harder with the pad.
With the G29 it's a breeze, but with stronger ffb wheels I can see the fatigue being a problem.

My hands have gone "T-Rex" before, definitely. It mainly happens to me when really chasing the top time trial times, less so during more casual sessions online or in career. This type of thing is dependent on so many factors and biases that it's really down to personal experience. Having done years of racing in Forza Motorsport 2-4 on the Xbox360 myself, I know consistency isn't necessarily an issue for pad users.

escritorio
15-11-2016, 11:01
And a wheel just feels so much better.

Haiden
15-11-2016, 13:03
Totally agreed. Which is precisely the reason I never bought a driving wheel, and never will. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't have fun with a game, emphasis on the word game, using the ordinary controller or without having to buy alternative peripherals, then probably you shouldn't be playing that game in the first place.

What if you consider it a hobby, instead of a game? There are plenty of sim titles out there that aren't considered games, and weren't developed for controller play. From my perspective. If you don't have a wheel, you shouldn't be playing sims in the first place. :)

joelsantos24
15-11-2016, 13:53
What if you consider it a hobby, instead of a game? There are plenty of sim titles out there that aren't considered games, and weren't developed for controller play. From my perspective. If you don't have a wheel, you shouldn't be playing sims in the first place. :)
And yet the wheel isn't part of the PS4 bundle, or the very own game pack. As for the hobby, it's just a label you apply in order to justify what you do in your own spare time. When you're playing in a console, you're playing a video game. End of story.

Grijo
15-11-2016, 14:04
I had a great time playing Pcars with a gamepad, honestly. But with a wheel is different, it's another experience. For better, of course. And I'm not a "sim racer", I play for the fun...but it's more fun to win, specially against the hardest AI or a great racer in a online race.

I had a impression that, when you use a wheel, the setup of the car is less important than how you drive the car. About two months ago, I raced in Azure Circuit using the Radical SR3 with a group that I participate. In my initial training, I was doing something like 1.37 low to 1.36 high. Some setup work and more training gave me a 1.35 low to 1.34 high lap. A lot of work in my setup and a lot of training after, I achieved my better time. 1.32 low to 1.31 high. With the wheel, 25 laps later with a default setup, I was doing 1.33 low! In the second day playing with the wheel. So, in my head, setup work is mandatory to have a good performance with the gamepad. With the wheel, it's a "plus" to have faster times. I'm wrong here?

hkraft300
15-11-2016, 14:31
This type of thing is dependent on so many factors and biases that it's really down to personal experience. Having done years of racing in Forza Motorsport 2-4 on the Xbox360 myself, I know consistency isn't necessarily an issue for pad users.

I've done my time in FM+GT too. They're easier with the gamepad I think: even FM5 and FH3. Also the way pcars allows gamepad customisation makes it great and very useable on every level. Try racing TexasTyme214 and guess which wheel he's using (hint: he's racing with a DualShock4!).


So, in my head, setup work is mandatory to have a good performance with the gamepad. With the wheel, it's a "plus" to have faster times. I'm wrong here?

Azure Circuit is a very technical track. It's difficult to distinguish whether it's the setup making you faster or practice. That said: whether with a wheel or gamepad, for best lap times setup work is critical. Its like you're "developing" the car, doing "R&D" and track testing to make it faster. Maybe your gamepad settings were slightly difficult for your style, and you adapted to the wheel faster? The default car setup does need a few tweaks to make gamepad-friendly, but I've found a "wrong" setup is worse on a wheel than a gamepad and bad handling is more pronounced.


When you're playing in a console, you're playing a video game. End of story.

Hey, easy now.
Some of us like to pretend we're race drivers with our toy wheels, k?

Grijo
15-11-2016, 15:05
Azure Circuit is a very technical track. It's difficult to distinguish whether it's the setup making you faster or practice. That said: whether with a wheel or gamepad, for best lap times setup work is critical. Its like you're "developing" the car, doing "R&D" and track testing to make it faster. Maybe your gamepad settings were slightly difficult for your style, and you adapted to the wheel faster? The default car setup does need a few tweaks to make gamepad-friendly, but I've found a "wrong" setup is worse on a wheel than a gamepad and bad handling is more pronounced.


I have a good gamepad setting. What I'm trying to say is, at least for me, the default setup is good (in this case IMO) to race, not the best. With the wheel, of course. But with the default setup in the gamepad, I coudn't do a decent lap. I almost coudn't do a lap without hitting the wall. But with the wheel, even with cold tires, I could manage the car quite easily.

Mahjik
15-11-2016, 15:13
And yet the wheel isn't part of the PS4 bundle, or the very own game pack. As for the hobby, it's just a label you apply in order to justify what you do in your own spare time. When you're playing in a console, you're playing a video game. End of story.

I thought the same thing until I purchased my first wheel.

Haiden
15-11-2016, 15:48
And yet the wheel isn't part of the PS4 bundle, or the very own game pack. As for the hobby, it's just a label you apply in order to justify what you do in your own spare time. When you're playing in a console, you're playing a video game. End of story.

It would be absolutely silly to include a wheel and pedal set as a console bundle, because which brand would you include? Even if Sony or MS made their own, who's to say you don't want Logitech gear, Thrustmaster, or Fanatec? This is why I no longer play on console. Less options, and compatibility isn't a priority for the manufacturers.

But to your point. Wheels are bundled, but with the title/game, not the console. Bundling a wheel with a console would be dumb, simply because consoles aren't specifically for sim racing, and the majority of console buyers don't even play racing games. However, bundling a wheel with a racing title is a smarter option, and it's something that you see quite often, and usually with special title branded hardware.

The reason I consider sim racing a hobby is because it's something I do regularly and keep learning and building on to improve the experience, especially race craft. If you haven't looked into or care to improve your race craft, then you're the type that considers sim racing a game. Hobby racers are always looking to improve--craft and immersion. I dropped console, because I don't play much of anything else other than racing titles, and the selection of good sims on console is slim, to say the least. IMO, PCars is the only worthwhile sim on console, right now. Maybe AC might get up to speed, eventually, but right now, it's a sad version of the PC title.

If you like console racing and see it as a game, fine. There's nothing to debate. For me, it's a hobby. To each his own. :)

joelsantos24
15-11-2016, 16:04
It would be absolutely silly to include a wheel and pedal set as a console bundle, because which brand would you include? Even if Sony or MS made their own, who's to say you don't want Logitech gear, Thrustmaster, or Fanatec? This is why I no longer play on console. Less options, and compatibility isn't a priority for the manufacturers.

But to your point. Wheels are bundled, but with the title/game, not the console. Bundling a wheel with a console would be dumb, simply because consoles aren't specifically for sim racing, and the majority of console buyers don't even play racing games. However, bundling a wheel with a racing title is a smarter option, and it's something that you see quite often, and usually with special title branded hardware.

The reason I consider sim racing a hobby is because it's something I do regularly and keep learning and building on to improve the experience, especially race craft. If you haven't looked into or care to improve your race craft, then you're the type that considers sim racing a game. Hobby racers are always looking to improve--craft and immersion. I dropped console, because I don't play much of anything else other than racing titles, and the selection of good sims on console is slim, to say the least. IMO, PCars is the only worthwhile sim on console, right now. Maybe AC might get up to speed, eventually, but right now, it's a sad version of the PC title.

If you like console racing and see it as a game, fine. There's nothing to debate. For me, it's a hobby. To each his own. :)
It's definitely ok to see this as a hobby, it depends on the person. And you can play this however you like, wheel or controller, it doesn't matter. My point with the bundles, was simple sarcasm. Essentially, the driving wheel will always be an optional peripheral, emphasis on optional, of course.

If this game would've been made specifically for driving wheel users/owners, I simply wouldn't have bought it. It doesn't say anywhere on the cover or the manuals, for that matter, that this game and others like it must be played with a wheel, and never will. Do you know why? Because, apart from PC players, which often tend to be more willing and able to spend more money on peripherals and gaming setups, the vast majority, that is to say, the console players, usually don't. There will always be many groups of players not willing nor capable to spend money on those kind of devices, and in parallel, the companies can't afford to produce a game to cater solely to a certain minority. They have to appeal to as many players and as many pockets, so to speak, as possible.

Haiden
15-11-2016, 18:39
It's definitely ok to see this as a hobby, it depends on the person. And you can play this however you like, wheel or controller, it doesn't matter. My point with the bundles, was simple sarcasm. Essentially, the driving wheel will always be an optional peripheral, emphasis on optional, of course.

If this game would've been made specifically for driving wheel users/owners, I simply wouldn't have bought it. It doesn't say anywhere on the cover or the manuals, for that matter, that this game and others like it must be played with a wheel, and never will. Do you know why? Because, apart from PC players, which often tend to be more willing and able to spend more money on peripherals and gaming setups, the vast majority, that is to say, the console players, usually don't. There will always be many groups of players not willing nor capable to spend money on those kind of devices, and in parallel, the companies can't afford to produce a game to cater solely to a certain minority. They have to appeal to as many players and as many pockets, so to speak, as possible.

True. But, for hobbyist and enthusiasts, what makes the difference is which control the game was actually developed for. Most real sims make wheel support the priority. PCars is a perfect example. Sure, it supports and can work well with a controller, but the game was obviously designed for wheel users. IMO, driving games that make controller support the priority aren't really sims. That's one of the reasons Forza Apex has done so poorly on PC.

hkraft300
15-11-2016, 20:52
Like I said before, despite Forza/GT being designed specifically for gamepad use, pcars I think does it better. It's definitely useable and competitive (proof: TT leaderboards).

However, if you don't see why a wheel is the better controller to get the most out of this title, the point/definition/depth of a racing simulation is clearly lost on you.

Zpectre87
15-11-2016, 21:11
I had a great gamepad setup before I decided to dust off the G27 and get back into it.

joelsantos24
15-11-2016, 21:12
Like I said before, despite Forza/GT being designed specifically for gamepad use, pcars I think does it better. It's definitely useable and competitive (proof: TT leaderboards).

However, if you don't see why a wheel is the better controller to get the most out of this title, the point/definition/depth of a racing simulation is clearly lost on you.
The wheel is clearly better than the controller, that's not even open for discussion. I just don't agree with the "design specificity" aspect, that many keep mentioning, as well as the fact that many still claim that it's the only way to have real fun with the game.

Was Project CARS "specifically designed" for wheel use? Who defined it? Who said that? Where is that written? If this is true, then Project CARS shouldn't have been released on console, in the first place. Anyway, as far as I know, racing games are always built to support both approaches, with no special attention for any of the two. First, because otherwise it wouldn't be fair, and second, because the gaming communities are always incredibly divided, as many use the wheel while many others use the controller. A driving wheel has it's natural strengths, like a deeper and smoother steering control, etc, but that's not to say that you can't be just as smooth and controlling with a DS4, for instance. The bottom line is, there are controller users that utterly devastate most of their driving wheel opponents.

hkraft300
15-11-2016, 21:27
1) The wheel is clearly better than the controller, that's not even open for discussion. I just don't agree with the "design specificity" aspect, that many keep mentioning, as well as the fact that many still claim that it's the only way to have real fun with the game.

2)
Was Project CARS "specifically designed" for wheel use? Who defined it? Who said that? Where is that written? If this is true, then Project CARS shouldn't have been released on console, in the first place. Anyway, as far as I know, racing games are always built to support both approaches, with no special advantage for any of the two, because the gaming communities are always incredibly divided, as many use the wheel while many others use the controller. A driving wheel has it's natural strengths, like a deeper and smoother steering control, etc, but that's not to say that you can't be smooth and controlling with a DS4, for instance. The bottom line is, there are controller users that devastate most of their driving wheel opponents.

1) you answered that yourself. It's not the only way, but it is the better and more fun.

2) did you know: a console is just like a PC, but with a pretty cover? If you stand it up (vertical stand optional ~au$25), it even looks like a PC! They have a hdd, multi-core processors, graphics cards, etc... It even has a slot to stick discs in, and USB ports!

No special advantage? No, not by intentions. See your own post and think whether a real car is better to drive with a wheel or gamepad.

Oh wait - I forgot. Simulation. Never mind.

Haiden
15-11-2016, 22:26
The wheel is clearly better than the controller, that's not even open for discussion. I just don't agree with the "design specificity" aspect, that many keep mentioning, as well as the fact that many still claim that it's the only way to have real fun with the game.

Was Project CARS "specifically designed" for wheel use? Who defined it? Who said that? Where is that written? If this is true, then Project CARS shouldn't have been released on console, in the first place. Anyway, as far as I know, racing games are always built to support both approaches, with no special attention for any of the two. First, because otherwise it wouldn't be fair, and second, because the gaming communities are always incredibly divided, as many use the wheel while many others use the controller. A driving wheel has it's natural strengths, like a deeper and smoother steering control, etc, but that's not to say that you can't be just as smooth and controlling with a DS4, for instance. The bottom line is, there are controller users that utterly devastate most of their driving wheel opponents.

I take it you weren't around when the title launched, or maybe you forgot those first few months. The game was virtually unplayable for many controller players.

IMO, it depends on the title and how you consider it. If you like simulation and want a realistic experience, then there's only one controller choice. How many professional simulators do you see using a pad controller? None, because... What would be the point? It would no longer be considered a simulator, would it?

Edit: I personally don't care which controller someone uses. I just don't subscribe to the controller is just as good for sim racing idea. For years I used a controller to play Forza and GT. I loved those games. Then I bought a wheel, and the entire experience changed, immediately. Overall, I've spent far more time racing with a gamepad (since Forza 1) than a wheel setup, and I can honestly say that, at least for me, there's no comparison. Nor would I ever want to go back to a game pad. It just feels lifeless.

joelsantos24
17-11-2016, 22:18
1) you answered that yourself. It's not the only way, but it is the better and more fun.

2) did you know: a console is just like a PC, but with a pretty cover? If you stand it up (vertical stand optional ~au$25), it even looks like a PC! They have a hdd, multi-core processors, graphics cards, etc... It even has a slot to stick discs in, and USB ports!

No special advantage? No, not by intentions. See your own post and think whether a real car is better to drive with a wheel or gamepad.

Oh wait - I forgot. Simulation. Never mind.
The wheel guarantees a smoother and more efficient control of the car. Nevertheless, that doesn't keep any controller user from having as much or more fun with the game, as well as many controllers user from clearly beating wheel users.

The difference between a simulator and an arcade, is the more realistic physics model and behaviour of the cars. And yes, a real car is better to drive with a wheel. This is video game, though. Therefore, not real.


I take it you weren't around when the title launched, or maybe you forgot those first few months. The game was virtually unplayable for many controller players.

IMO, it depends on the title and how you consider it. If you like simulation and want a realistic experience, then there's only one controller choice. How many professional simulators do you see using a pad controller? None, because... What would be the point? It would no longer be considered a simulator, would it?

Edit: I personally don't care which controller someone uses. I just don't subscribe to the controller is just as good for sim racing idea. For years I used a controller to play Forza and GT. I loved those games. Then I bought a wheel, and the entire experience changed, immediately. Overall, I've spent far more time racing with a gamepad (since Forza 1) than a wheel setup, and I can honestly say that, at least for me, there's no comparison. Nor would I ever want to go back to a game pad. It just feels lifeless.
I was around, and I had the same difficulties as those people. I just wasn't aware that SMS had officially or otherwise, decreed that the game could only be played with a driving wheel.

This is a game, not reality. I like the simulators for the more realistic physics model, which is the only difference from an arcade. If I want realism, I'll drive an actual car.

Haiden
18-11-2016, 00:09
I was around, and I had the same difficulties as those people. I just wasn't aware that SMS had officially or otherwise, decreed that the game could only be played with a driving wheel.

This is a game, not reality. I like the simulators for the more realistic physics model, which is the only difference from an arcade. If I want realism, I'll drive an actual car.

I didn't say SMS specifically designed it for controller. I was just pointing out that the wheel seemed to have been their priority, since that was obviously much further along and stable than the controller support.

We can all go drive an actual car whenever we want. But that's apples to oranges, because most of us don't have access to professional race cars and circuits, so that's not even close to being the same thing. If driving the cars parked in our garage/driveway was the same as racing, why would need racing sims?

hkraft300
18-11-2016, 00:09
The wheel guarantees a smoother and more efficient control of the car. Nevertheless, that doesn't keep any controller user from having as much or more fun with the game, as well as many controllers user from clearly beating wheel users

The difference between a simulator and an arcade, is the more realistic physics model and behaviour of the cars. And yes, a real car is better to drive with a wheel. This is video game, though. Therefore, not real.


I was around, and I had the same difficulties as those people. I just wasn't aware that SMS had officially or otherwise, decreed that the game could only be played with a driving wheel.

This is a game, not reality. I like the simulators for the more realistic physics model, which is the only difference from an arcade. If I want realism, I'll drive an actual car.

Lol...
says the guy who "never have and never will" get an ffb wheel.
No, you're not going to have more fun playing this "video game" with a gamepad than a wheel. Why? Because it's a SIM therefore, like you have mentioned your self, realistic. You might have more fun playing nfs or Mario kart or even FM (I hear the ffb is terrible).

Having never used an ffb wheel, you have no idea. The immersion factor is in itself a massive fun factor. Aside from the nuances of the car's handling and suspension, because it's realistic, which is entirely missed on a gamepad. This game is so much more with an ffb wheel that, having got an ffb wheel only a few months ago, I envy the guys on transducers/motion rigs. On a gamepad you're oblivious to a bad suspension setup, aside from lap times. The ffb wheel brings out more realism from this video game not just for immersion but for the physics.

Gamepad vs wheel, what I can compare it to right now is watching a movie on mute.

Haiden
18-11-2016, 00:56
Lol...
says the guy who "never have and never will" get an ffb wheel.
No, you're not going to have more fun playing this "video game" with a gamepad than a wheel. Why? Because it's a SIM therefore, like you have mentioned your self, realistic. You might have more fun playing nfs or Mario kart or even FM (I hear the ffb is terrible).

Good point. How can playing with a controller be more fun than playing with a wheel and pedals? I supposed if you aren't used to playing with a wheel, the controller would seem more fun. But after you get used to it, no way. Actually...scratch that. I remember when I switched. After ten years of racing with a controller, I bought wheel. For those first few weeks, even though I wasn't matching my old pad lap times, I was still having way more fun racing with the wheel. Playing with the game pad had always been fun, but the level of immersion was practically non-existent, compared to being on a wheel. I didn't care if my times were down, because I knew form the first few hours, I was never going back. A month later I was blowing those times away, because the increased immersion with the wheel made me do something I had never really bothered doing in the ten years I was playing with a pad... I started actively researching and learning more about racing physics and putting it to practice. Never had the motivation to that when I was racing with a pad, because I couldn't feel the grip anyway. :)

To each his own. But for me... Back when I was racing with a pad, it was just something I did for fun. I played racing sims along with other games. But Forza was to me, like Madden is to others-- my mainstay game. I'd buy the new one as soon as it came out. But, in the end, it was just another game, and I rarely raced online. When I started playing with a wheel, I started getting more serious about sim racing as a hobby and upgraded and invested in more hardware. Then came PCars, and then came more hardware. :) Now, I'm on PC, play a few different sims, and enjoy them all--looking for more too. I don't really play any other games. Racing is pretty much all I do, and I don't think any of the sim titles would ever be more fun with a controller.

hkraft300
18-11-2016, 01:17
Actually...scratch that. I remember when I switched. After ten years of racing with a controller, I bought wheel. For those first few weeks, even though I wasn't matching my old pad lap times, I was still having way more fun racing with the wheel. Playing with the game pad had always been fun, but the level of immersion was practically non-existent, compared to being on a wheel. I didn't care if my times were down, because I knew form the first few hours, I was never going back. A month later I was blowing those times away, because the increased immersion with the wheel made me do something I had never really bothered doing in the ten years I was playing with a pad... I started actively researching and learning more about racing physics and putting it to practice. Never had the motivation to that when I was racing with a pad, because I couldn't feel the grip anyway. :)


Oh man. I remember the first 15-20 laps was terrible with a wheel. I was locking the brakes, steering too slowly, getting freaked out by the ffb, finishing last, spinning and crashing and basically had no idea what I was doing. That was still more fun than racing with a gamepad.

This is no validation syndrome thing to justify spending $x. Au$350 is easily affordable for me now (it wasn't last year). Not affordable for many and that's unfortunate. But, you know, even if it seems expensive, it's money better spent than big night out on the drink.

Zpectre87
18-11-2016, 01:20
joelsantos24, I started with a pad (even in sims not designed for it like GTR2) and, when I got the G27, it was like night and day. I care about being competitive, but I don't care about being the absolute fastest. You can be the absolute fastest with a controller, but the immersion the wheel provides is something else entirely. Even more so if you use the H-shifter and clutch pedal in cars originally driven with that. The vast majority of online racers uses automatic clutch because it's faster and it does not register as an assist, also because some popular wheels like the DFGT lack a clutch pedal so auto clutch evens the playing field. But I use the full equipment I have, and I would never look back.

pCARS, as all sims, was developed primarily with a wheel in mind, but, since not everyone has a wheel and the controller is the default means of input, an effort was made to support gamepads. I wasn't around when the game first came out, but nowadays pCARS does have excellent gamepad support. Dig deep into the settings and keep testing, and you'll find something you're comfortable with, as I did before I moved back to the G27. I think it was the 320 TC that made me give up on my Xbox One controller, that car is surprisingly difficult and, after a bit of testing, I was 2-3 seconds faster with the wheel at Oulton Park International with a high 1'43". Not quite up there, but close. My PB with the gamepad was in the low 1'46".

hkraft300
18-11-2016, 02:12
That reminds me: I need to order the h-shift for my G29 lol
I have mates who drive the GT3 cars with the h-shift. Because fun.

joelsantos24
18-11-2016, 09:23
I didn't say SMS specifically designed it for controller. I was just pointing out that the wheel seemed to have been their priority, since that was obviously much further along and stable than the controller support.

We can all go drive an actual car whenever we want. But that's apples to oranges, because most of us don't have access to professional race cars and circuits, so that's not even close to being the same thing. If driving the cars parked in our garage/driveway was the same as racing, why would need racing sims?
Well, I don't know if wheel support was much further along than controller support, but honestly, it really doesn't matter that much. Not every PS owner has a driving wheel. But every PS owner has a DS. When you launch a racing game on PS, if that's not your primary and first concern in regards to controlling the car, then it's just nonsensical.


joelsantos24, I started with a pad (even in sims not designed for it like GTR2) and, when I got the G27, it was like night and day. I care about being competitive, but I don't care about being the absolute fastest. You can be the absolute fastest with a controller, but the immersion the wheel provides is something else entirely. Even more so if you use the H-shifter and clutch pedal in cars originally driven with that. The vast majority of online racers uses automatic clutch because it's faster and it does not register as an assist, also because some popular wheels like the DFGT lack a clutch pedal so auto clutch evens the playing field. But I use the full equipment I have, and I would never look back.

pCARS, as all sims, was developed primarily with a wheel in mind, but, since not everyone has a wheel and the controller is the default means of input, an effort was made to support gamepads. I wasn't around when the game first came out, but nowadays pCARS does have excellent gamepad support. Dig deep into the settings and keep testing, and you'll find something you're comfortable with, as I did before I moved back to the G27. I think it was the 320 TC that made me give up on my Xbox One controller, that car is surprisingly difficult and, after a bit of testing, I was 2-3 seconds faster with the wheel at Oulton Park International with a high 1'43". Not quite up there, but close. My PB with the gamepad was in the low 1'46".
Not buying a driving wheel, is my own personal option. It's a matter of principle. If a game released on a console, isn't made with the default and basic controller support in mind, then they're just forcing people to buy a peripheral. I've talked to a lot of guys using a controller, not only in Project CARS but also GT over the last few years, and many friends of mine have always complained about the feeling they got that they were being forced, so to speak, to buy a wheel, just because it was so damn hard to use the default setting. People say that GT was made with the DS in mind, mostly than the wheel. I actually don't think so. The thing is, the PS's primary/default controlling setup is the DS, and not everyone owns a wheel. They understood that from the beginning, rightfully so, and their DS support is awesome.

I honestly love Project CARS. However, I'd be omissive if I didn't say that I bought it because there wasn't GT around for PS4. I love this game, and I'm not that willing to part myself with it, even if GT Sport is releasing soon. I'm quite likely to stay with Project CARS, and that's perfect. But I did sense from the beginning, that this game was primarily made for wheel owners, and if that's the case, it shouldn't have been released on console. That's my opinion. Moreover, if Project CARS' producers are so resolute on highlighting or favouring the wheel support, over the DS, then say it loud and clear next time, and it saves us (DS users) the trouble of buying the second game.

hkraft300
18-11-2016, 10:36
Just because consoles come with a gamepad, should Sims be dumbed down then, or not released on console at all?

Zpectre87
18-11-2016, 11:05
I don't even want to hear the outcry if consoles were compatible with keyboard and mouse... As the controller is absolutely inferior to those in FPS games as well.

On the other hand, RTS games rarely get console releases because the gamepad is completely inadequate for playing them. With racing sims (real stuff, not GT) and FPS games, it's "passable", so they're released for console, albeit with lots and lots of helpers to minimize the bad experience you'd otherwise have with a gamepad. I've played through the first few levels of that 2014 Wolfenstein game with my Xbox One controller and it was enough to give up on it and move back to keyboard and mouse. Steam Controller was no better! (even with the gyro) Your gunplay is severely crippled when using a controller. I'd say racing sims are far easier than FPSes with a gamepad...

At the end of the day, a console nowadays is just a cheap home computer much like a PC so it doesn't matter which standard input it comes with. Take it apart and you'll see. Only difference is PCs are bigger because they're more powerful so they need room for cooling. Do you believe then that racing sim developers should focus on keyboard players as that's the standard means of input in a PC? That'd be ridiculous.

joelsantos24
20-11-2016, 11:18
I don't even want to hear the outcry if consoles were compatible with keyboard and mouse... As the controller is absolutely inferior to those in FPS games as well.

On the other hand, RTS games rarely get console releases because the gamepad is completely inadequate for playing them. With racing sims (real stuff, not GT) and FPS games, it's "passable", so they're released for console, albeit with lots and lots of helpers to minimize the bad experience you'd otherwise have with a gamepad. I've played through the first few levels of that 2014 Wolfenstein game with my Xbox One controller and it was enough to give up on it and move back to keyboard and mouse. Steam Controller was no better! (even with the gyro) Your gunplay is severely crippled when using a controller. I'd say racing sims are far easier than FPSes with a gamepad...

At the end of the day, a console nowadays is just a cheap home computer much like a PC so it doesn't matter which standard input it comes with. Take it apart and you'll see. Only difference is PCs are bigger because they're more powerful so they need room for cooling. Do you believe then that racing sim developers should focus on keyboard players as that's the standard means of input in a PC? That'd be ridiculous.
Totally different matter. Not even comparable, in my opinion.

hkraft300
20-11-2016, 20:40
...But I did sense from the beginning, that this game was primarily made for wheel owners, and if that's the case, it shouldn't have been released on console. That's my opinion.

Because the DS4 can relay ffb, tyre and body movement (direct outputs from the physics code of the game) just as well as an ffb wheel...


Totally different matter. Not even comparable, in my opinion.

Selective much?

Wolfe
21-11-2016, 04:39
Regarding how "easy" it is to use one or the other, I think ideally, both input methods should be roughly equal in terms of complementing a player's ability. At a sufficient level of driving skill, you shouldn't have to consciously think about your input to get around the track. Either device should be almost transparent to the task of hitting apexes or shaving laptimes; managing your speed, line, and grip, the actual challenges of fast driving. That means good FFB for wheel users and adequate filters/dampening for controller users.

The purpose of filters/dampening is not to make driving "easier" for controller users, but to mitigate unintended input. With a wheel, or in a real car, I personally don't consider it very difficult to find the right steering angle to avoid scrubbing the front tires, or to avoid accidentally flinging my car into a barrier with a full-lock wallop of countersteer when it clearly isn't needed. Filters/dampening fill in for the feedback you would normally get from the front wheels on those things.

I would like to see PCARS2 offer an input mode that is a bit more sophisticated in how it limits steering lock or dampens the rate of steering, especially when countersteering, which seems to be the weakest area of what we have now.

I've used both types of devices for as long as I've been playing racing games, but I usually stick to a controller for a handful of reasons, mainly a preference for console gaming. My G25 is pretty much reserved for the occasional session of Live for Speed.

joelsantos24
21-11-2016, 11:04
Regarding how "easy" it is to use one or the other, I think ideally, both input methods should be roughly equal in terms of complementing a player's ability. At a sufficient level of driving skill, you shouldn't have to consciously think about your input to get around the track. Either device should be almost transparent to the task of hitting apexes or shaving laptimes; managing your speed, line, and grip, the actual challenges of fast driving. That means good FFB for wheel users and adequate filters/dampening for controller users.

The purpose of filters/dampening is not to make driving "easier" for controller users, but to mitigate unintended input. With a wheel, or in a real car, I personally don't consider it very difficult to find the right steering angle to avoid scrubbing the front tires, or to avoid accidentally flinging my car into a barrier with a full-lock wallop of countersteer when it clearly isn't needed. Filters/dampening fill in for the feedback you would normally get from the front wheels on those things.

I would like to see PCARS2 offer an input mode that is a bit more sophisticated in how it limits steering lock or dampens the rate of steering, especially when countersteering, which seems to be the weakest area of what we have now.

I've used both types of devices for as long as I've been playing racing games, but I usually stick to a controller for a handful of reasons, mainly a preference for console gaming. My G25 is pretty much reserved for the occasional session of Live for Speed.
Good point. I generally agree.

Haiden
21-11-2016, 14:28
Like this guy said...


...With the wheel, even with default setups, I had fun with these cars. I tried other road cars such the Rufs RGT8 and Yellowbird, Pagani Huayra and the Mustang GT. These road cars were never a great experience for me but now its totally diferent. The Audi R8 and the Mercedes A45 were the worst, I hated these ones. First lap with the Merc in the G29 and I said "Whaaat? Really? This car is that good? No way man!!!" Now Im like "Gamepad? What is this? This is something to eat?” Project Cars now turned into a brand new game for me. I see you in 600 hours.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?46731-Project-Cars-my-personal-view-after-almost-an-year&p=1313955&viewfull=1#post1313955