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konnos
06-03-2016, 17:23
Ok i m fresh from a session of California road with the RUF RGT-8 and I have to say I am very surprised at how the car, and the rest of the "slow" tier of road cars, handle in turns. It just leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth after driving it around this road. The grip is lost so easily and it handles like a boat, refusing to turn the moment you appear to slide a little. And I can get used to the sliding all over the place part, not that I like it but it's ok. There are some turns, even with positive slope that I go in at say 120km and the car just won't do it. Seriously, is this how these amazing cars handle? Twisty roads are my favourite place to drive in real life and I swear there are times that I think even my dad's sedan can take sharper turns than this without unsettleing (E200K).

Admittedly i've been driving the GT3s lately and the FRookie, but jesus, those turns are not that sharp :/

Rant over, what do people think about this? I don't know how to upload stuff on youtube, if people ask for examples, one of these days I might be bothered to look up how to do it.

EDIT: The car i was driving was the RUF RGT-8, not the RUF CTR.

havocc
06-03-2016, 17:37
I remember ppl complaining about road cars having too much grip tbh

maxx69
06-03-2016, 17:39
Have you played with the cars setup , to help handling? What tyres did you use ? Did you allow the tyres to heat up properly?
I don't have many issues with road cars , I like the challenge the present.
A lot can be achieved through suspension tweaks and general setup.
Even FFB tweaks can aid handling a fair bit .
I found a lot of people were raging when we raced the new Aston the other day at willow springs , but I was loving it , just enjoying the car and forgetting I was in a race .

konnos
06-03-2016, 17:53
Yea i remember people saying there is too much grip in road cars, but I wasn't paying attention as road cars didn't interest me so much in the beginning. I use default tunes and default tires and I am almost always in TimeTrial, so tires are heated and ready. It might be that I've been spoilt by the speedier cars, who knows, it just feels weird though.

I wouldn't know where to start from with setting up, so I leave it alone. If I decide to go down that hole, I ll just copy someone else's tune, I m just not that tech savvy.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-03-2016, 18:27
Default setups for all of them aren't that great, but the grip capabilities for road cars are definitely not too low. They're not much too high either, but are a smidge above what the tyres they're representing usually manage IRL. This in terms of pure G forces. The longitudinal (braking/acceleration grip) might be a bit more on the too high side, but the lateral grip isn't far at all.

People just generally have trouble relating road car performance levels in games to real life. In game it feels like you're doing almost nothing even when you're pulling 1.2 lateral Gs, which is immense performance. We measured Gs of a normal Toyota Corolla running on normal summer tyres last year, and the best we could manage was a quick peak in the 0.85-0.9 G range laterally, and let me tell you it was very uncomfortable being a passenger in that car, having almost your full body weight suddenly go sideways. All of the road cars have access to tyres capable of blowing past this level with supreme ease (as are the IRL tyres they're purporting), and sustaining that for extended periods of time.

The Denloc tyres for the CTR, McLaren F1 and Evo VI TME are lower performance but still represent a good early-90s level sports tyre (the development of sporty road tyres in the last 15 or so years has been astounding, quickly going from being capable of 0.95 G to 1.35 G).

You really need to calibrate your senses all over again for road cars in games, they will feel super slow for a long while if you're used to racing cars. Racing cars capable of pulling even 1.5-2.0 G in corners look exciting on the screen, stuff moves sideways quickly, road cars doing that at 1.1-1.3 Gs don't look much like anything if you're used to higher levels. It is a well recognized problem in doing realistic road cars in sims, they will feel slower and less grippy than they actually are.

Just count your blessings that the BMW 2002 Turbo and Mustang Fastback 2+2 don't have access to realistic 60s & 70s road tyres. I have actual tyre test data from back then, and those tyre were barely capable of peaking at 0.8 G momentarily, and held steady at around 0.6-0.7 Gs. That's not much more than what modern winter tyres are capable of on snow! =)

Also the California Highway is pretty easy to drive anyway, because the road at most points is some 4 meters wider than a real one would be. If the road was the correct width it would be soooooo much more difficult to get through there.

For "fun", here are a few cornering speed examples at various grip levels: As an example, if you took a corner that 1 G tyres (really really good non-sports summer tyres) can take at 100 km/h, a car with something like Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres (1.25-1.35 G) could take it at 114 km/h, and a 60s car (with generous 0.7 G tyres) could take it at 84 km/h. A car capable of 2 G would be able to go through at 141 km/h (probably some form of open-wheeler or prototype at those speeds).

konnos
06-03-2016, 18:53
I do recognise that this might be the case, like you are describing Jussi, that's why I wasn't going nerd-rage mode hehe. It's all fun and good drive, just my temper going out the window when I keep messing up my TT.

Dakpilot
07-03-2016, 12:09
I was showing PCars to a friend who does not really play racing sims, he also was initially frustrated by crashing on corners, the problem in this (any) sim is the total lack of sense of speed (80-150kmh) probably exacerbated by my attempts at having a realistic (narrowish) FOV , I pointed out the actual speed he was entering the corner and suggested he consider a real life similar corner near my house, and imagine trying to take that at a similar speed, with full throttle on exit in his real car

although not directly comparable, the 'principle' clicked and he was able to employ a different approach and got a lot more enjoyment from his short experience with driving the road cars in PCars

Cheers Dakpilot

DreamsKnight
07-03-2016, 13:50
I was showing PCars to a friend who does not really play racing sims, he also was initially frustrated by crashing on corners, the problem in this (any) sim is the total lack of sense of speed (80-150kmh) probably exacerbated by my attempts at having a realistic (narrowish) FOV , I pointed out the actual speed he was entering the corner and suggested he consider a real life similar corner near my house, and imagine trying to take that at a similar speed, with full throttle on exit in his real car

although not directly comparable, the 'principle' clicked and he was able to employ a different approach and got a lot more enjoyment from his short experience with driving the road cars in PCars

Cheers Dakpilot

Yes. I add a couple of things.
-you have sense of speed in real life on the sides and not in front of you. Probably a 3/5 monitor configuration help.
-the cockpit CAM don't help. With the Hood CAM the sens of speed is higher. See above to understand why.

konnos
07-03-2016, 16:52
Yes indeed I drive better with Bumper Cam, i don't like Hood cam as much for aesthetic purposes, most cars don't really have attractive hoods. But i want to drive from helmet cam (invisible helmet) to keep the world movement effects and get a more realistic view. I struggle sometimes ;) I m just having a bad streak of days lately and my frustration kicks in too fast. GT3 has spoilt me, but the GinettaGT3 is giving me trouble at Oulton, I need to re-learn how to drive with this car, my main drives are the Z4 and M3 followed by RUF and R8.

Krus Control
07-03-2016, 19:35
Unless you have a big enough monitor, there is really no positive side to using cockpit view. I find that it helps me read the car and to use the car's momentum better. But I have a 43" TV. I used to use a 21" monitor and hood cam was the only option.

About the grip levels, I think after patch 9 grip levels are pretty realistic in all cars. What I feel about PCARS after spending a bunch of time with the alternate handling mod is that either there is too much longitudinal grip, or the whole game's speed needs to be dialed back by a little. But as is I think it is very representative of real life grip levels in pretty much every car. I think no matter how close SMS gets it, though, you'll still have people complaining on both sides.

havocc
07-03-2016, 20:06
Unless you have a big enough monitor, there is really no positive side to using cockpit view. I find that it helps me read the car and to use the car's momentum better. But I have a 43" TV. I used to use a 21" monitor and hood cam was the only option.

About the grip levels, I think after patch 9 grip levels are pretty realistic in all cars. What I feel about PCARS after spending a bunch of time with the alternate handling mod is that either there is too much longitudinal grip, or the whole game's speed needs to be dialed back by a little. But as is I think it is very representative of real life grip levels in pretty much every car. I think no matter how close SMS gets it, though, you'll still have people complaining on both sides.

I use cockpit with open wheelers and all other open cockpit cars

Haiden
07-03-2016, 20:08
I find the sense of speed on bumper cam is faster (not in realistic way, though), but your ability to react is seriously diminished. In RL, even at high speed, things don't come at you as fast as they do in bumper cam. If you're only getting a glimpse of your braking point, and a barely perceivable amount of time to hit it, you just won't be consistent. With cockpit view, I am able to place the car better. But like Krus said above, if you only have one screen, it has to be a decent size to enjoy that view.

Krus Control
07-03-2016, 20:16
I use cockpit with open wheelers and all other open cockpit cars

Yeah hood cam doesn't work for open wheel on any screen size IMO. I always used cockpit view for open wheel.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
07-03-2016, 20:41
Personally I dislike all cameras that aren't cockpit cam for the simple reason that when the camera isn't where the driver's head is it affects my sensation of the cars' movements too much.