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Androphonomania
12-03-2016, 22:37
As i tried if my pc is capable of playing pcars in 1080p i tried some tt on road america with the corvette.

I'm using the exact same setup and the exact same wheel settings (ffb feels much better on ps4 though, pc feedback needs some tuning, struggling to get sector times together) and there is a huge difference in tyre behaviour.

On the pc i needed to lower the pressure about 0.1 bar all around to get heat in the tyres. On the PS4 all tyres were on optimal temperatures on the run to the start/finish line (around 100C except for the front left. It's around 115-117C at the end of the first TT lap).

So i need to restart the TT cos then the car understeers massively.

On the pc i am able (with 0.1 bar less pressure all around, see setup here: http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/173032036)
to lap lap after lap.
There is no front left tyre overheating, i could go the whole day setting low to mid 2.05.

Is there a difference in input methods between ps4 and pc?? Or in tyre behaviour?

Quite a mystery to me.

Weather and temperature is equal on both ends.(checked that)

Would be nice if someone would test it and i dont know if its track specific.

P.S.: Forgot to mention: on pc i can abuse the tyres in the long sweeper, they cool down so fast. I wonder that no one recognized it yet.
On my PS4 i have to be very gentle on the steering in that long, long corner. The next one is quite a challenge then.

Androphonomania
13-03-2016, 09:27
I did a quick test if it is track specific.

It really seems like a huge difference between PS4 and PC!

PS4 temperatures are at least 5C higher at the back straight before Blanchimont.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOKc6O0k_E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEEoUuirp9w

Tested with same setup, same date, same time, same weather !

Silraed
13-03-2016, 11:33
You are carrying a lot more speed through the corners on your PS4 lap. That could explain the temperature difference.

MrBlacky
13-03-2016, 12:13
Oh yet another tire discussion.

Yeah, change it back to the "old new" tire model. It was fine.

Androphonomania
13-03-2016, 13:38
No it is not a tyre discussion. Just an observation of a difference between platforms. I dont know if it is the tyre model or the input method. Just need an explanation.

On road america in tt, it is extreme. Because on the pc you could easily push and abuse the tyres one lap after another. On the PS4 with the same speed, TT times are the same, the tyres need more pressure and are still overheating.

If you look on the timestamps of the outlap, they are similar. It is not the driving that is causing overheating. Every tyre is just hotter. I don't know what is causing this.

The tyre tests back in 6.0 Made it sure that there is no difference. The experience i had in TT and some random outings were weird...


As i'm not going to drive in the next days: here is the TT lap on the PS4. After that one i tested the PC to compare FFB and Graphics first. But the first thing i had to do, was to lower tyre pressure, because otherwise those tyres cooled off too much. (Front right and rear right especially). Even drinving like shit through that fast and long right hander, those tyres would not overheat. Just a random observation.

After i lowered the tyre pressure on the pc, the temperatures seemed pretty much similar. Nontheless the tyre on the PC are much more forgiving in terms of abusing.


TT Lap (PS4 +0,1bar tyre pressure to this setup http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/173032036)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pUI0tI-q8Q

If someone could test it, with that setup and without abusing the tyres and tyre pressure +0,1 on the PC. That would be great. Tyre temperatures on the finish line are (green field in the vette on the motec) Front 106/98 Rear 103/98

As i ran TT for the first times on the PC , the tyre temperatures were in the likes of (Front 100/88 Rear 93/90).

Androphonomania
17-03-2016, 21:51
So i finally had some time to do a proper test.
I reran the tyre test of patch 6.0 with the corvette. As i ran it and did not notice any difference, back then.



The result is relatively clear:

There is no difference in the heating behaviour but a huge in the cooling !

I dont know what is causing the difference between platforms. But its significant(about 15%)


I did an observation of the length the tyre needs to cool down from 120C to 90C.


On the PS4 the duration is 53.16 seconds

On the PC the duration is 45.15 seconds.




If you compare every tyre the difference is obvious.
Furthermore i did 2 laps of TT on Spa with equal pace, i wasnt on the limit, so I was gentle to the tyres !! More so on the ps4, to show how big the difference is.
Proof is uploading but it will need till tomorrow.

Androphonomania
18-03-2016, 05:55
So there are the videos. What did i do ?

I configured my T500 with 1080 degrees of steering on both platforms to ensure the same input.


Tyre Test on Mojave (Corvette):

I drove to the big inner area. Shifted in 1st Gear, Full Throttle and then: Full steering lock, all fo the 1080 degrees were used to observe the heat gain of especially the front left tyre.
After that i drove to the outer loop to observe the cooling behaviour. Shifted to 2nd Gear, full throttle (145km\h max) and drove at the inner white line to see if there is a difference.

The heating is the same! The cooling is another story !

Tyre cooling test PS4

Tyre cooling from 120C to 90C 2,28,61 - 3,21,77 -> 53,16 seconds



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsNPE4dLZ9I



Tyre cooling test PC



Cooling of the tyre from 120C- 90C 2,33,0 - 3,18,15 -> 45,15seconds


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUB0UMlfYU




To give another impression of the different behaviour, i ran 2 laps on Spa in TT Mode. Not on the limit, to ensure there is no tyre abusing (even though i had some locking on the PC... :) )

SPA Tyre Test TT 2 Laps (PC)

The temperatures on lap 1 before Eau Rouge (94/92 95/95) [FL/FR RL/RR]

End of lap 1: (99/100 97/98)
End of lap 2: (101/102 98/98)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV3pm7hInl0



SPA Tyre Test TT 2 Laps (PS4)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPR5l2ybI4g

The temperatures on lap 1 before Eau Rouge (97/94 97/96) (delta to PC 3/2 2/1 )

End of lap 1: (104/104 104/104) delta to PC (5/4 7/6)
End of lap 2: (106/108 104/103) delta to PC (5/7 6/5)


So is this an 9.0 specific issue? As i ran the tyre test in 6.0, but back then there was no difference. Now it is !


P.S.: I like the more heat we have on the PS4, it is much more demanding, because you have to watch your tyres over long stints.

maximatorstengel
18-03-2016, 14:09
Great effort!

I like the way the tyres behave on the PS4.

Androphonomania
20-03-2016, 07:29
So any idea what could cause the different behaviour ?

I did not test other cars/tyres as my gaming time is restricted(wife, son... ). So if anybody got the possibility to test other tyre/car combinations. Please, do it ! :)

Androphonomania
25-03-2016, 05:59
Ok, for me the results are final. I replicated the tests with 2 different cars. (Z4 GT3 and Group A - M3)


Cooling test comparison between consoles

Duration from 120C to 90C

PC

Z4: 34,4s
M3 (Group A): 30,45s

PS4:

Z4 40,88s (18,8% longer !)
M3 (Group A) 35,6s (16,9% longer !)

Link to tests

PC (M3 + Z4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt6uh15UDJs

PS4 Z4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2e23ws_sKA

PS4 M3
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EnIjs5UNvz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnIjs5UNvz0)

This leads to two questions.

Is the decreased cooling rate on the PS4 intended? (somemone on xbone could test it also, the test is easy to replicate) Any idea what could cause the difference???

Androphonomania
27-03-2016, 13:05
Some kind of response would be very kind. :teapot:

Umer Ahmad
27-03-2016, 15:26
On a Sunday evening? :)

For now I've posted this information back to the dev team

Androphonomania
27-03-2016, 16:15
Yeah thanks a lot. Just a sign of acknowledgement, posted it 2 weeks ago. It is not urgent, as i am happy with how the tyres behave on the ps4. :victorious:

Krus Control
27-03-2016, 16:42
This could be related but maybe not. I've noticed that on PC that not all tire behavior is taken into account when building tire heat. I First noticed this in the Radbul. While doing donuts in 6th gear the tires not only fail to heat up and wear, but they cool down. That should not happen. A 6th gear donut should skyrocket temps and destroy the tires. Since then I've noticed the same behavior in every class that I've tried. But then again this may be something that is present in PS4 as well. Just thought it might be relevant to this conversation.

Doge
28-03-2016, 00:35
I have never believed the whole "PC produces faster times" thing... But if the cooling is indeed faster, PC players can get away with lower pressures, which usually helps a lot in this game. There might be some truth in it after all!

Casey Ringley
28-03-2016, 13:58
There are no fundamental differences in heat transfer model for the tires between platforms. Same numbers and everything are used. It's a system of many layers, though, so is difficult to make any conclusions based on tread temperature cooling rates alone. There are at least 7 other starting conditions which need to be the same to presume the same result.

Androphonomania
28-03-2016, 15:06
So, any idea how to test it? Starting conditions are nearly identical as it is the same procedure. But you do agree that it is quite mysterious why there is a difference at all ?

Did another test to have the same/exact starting consitions.

TT / SLS GT3 / Zolder beginning of the TT there is a long straight, no steering input or anything else given. (car rolls with the same start speed, in the pc i had to give a little bit right input....)

I observed the temperature drop off after 20 seconds. Did it several times to ersetzt random error.

Results:

PS4 - 20 Seconds: 93C (delta 7C)

PC - 20 seconds: 92C (delta 8C)


It correlates to the claimed 15% difference i mentioned ! Will try to find a longer test in the next few days. But for now, this should be enough to prove that there IS a difference, even though all numbers are equal.

PS4 Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwsZdFvywQ

PC Link https://youtu.be/gS8h7LjgvHU

Casey Ringley
28-03-2016, 16:38
15% plus or minus a 15% margin of error, though, in the way you did that test. PC may have just touched 92.49, thus being rounded down while PS4 was 92.51 and would have ticked down to match within a few seconds. Impossible for me to say.

Androphonomania
28-03-2016, 17:04
That's why i will do it again, longer observation... The decimals are missing.
Thanks for answering.

So lets look at this with this in mind. So we need a Border lets take the 93C mark then.



93C on the ps4 are reached at 18.85s on the pc at 15.65 !

There is, no doubt, a margin of error but with all these observations there cant be any more room for an error in observation. They correlate !

I ran that test on PS4 ten times. Not a Chance it would fall under 93 C in 20 seconds.



Note: In patch 6.0 the cooling was the same. This is some weird thing i noticed While starting hot lapping the vette on pc!

Sampo
28-03-2016, 18:23
I tried that same test myself on PC. I got down to 93c in 20.0s +/- 0.1s. I only observed the left front and used the HUD to get the figure.

Androphonomania
28-03-2016, 19:16
Default setup? Did around 20 trys. Always got to 92C.

You did left front, i did also. When does it hit the 93C mark? (first change of temperature)
As casey stated the margin of error is relative huge in the observation of the temperature. The seconds are much more precise.
So if anyone wants to reproduce (ps4/pc/xbox) the test.


SLS Default setup TT / Zolder / no steering or paddle input / no gear changing

Time of cooling front left in seconds 100C-93C





It keeps nagging me, i simply cant understand why i can pace and abuse the tyres and drive with at least 0.15 bar less tyre pressure on pc.
Whe n you drive a direct comparison the cooling rate on the pc is ridicoulus fast.

On the PS4 it is simply not possible to not overheat them.if you pace all the time. (In hot conditions)

JohnSchoonsBeard
29-03-2016, 06:42
Thanks Casey for the responses.



Default setup? Did around 20 trys. Always got to 92C.

You did left front, i did also. When does it hit the 93C mark? (first change of temperature)
As casey stated the margin of error is relative huge in the observation of the temperature. The seconds are much more precise.
So if anyone wants to reproduce (ps4/pc/xbox) the test.


SLS Default setup TT / Zolder / no steering or paddle input / no gear changing

Time of cooling front left in seconds 100C-93C





It keeps nagging me, i simply cant understand why i can pace and abuse the tyres and drive with at least 0.15 bar less tyre pressure on pc.
Whe n you drive a direct comparison the cooling rate on the pc is ridicoulus fast.

On the PS4 it is simply not possible to not overheat them.if you pace all the time. (In hot conditions)

Hi Andro

What are your exact settings on PS4 and on PC for the following?

Controller setup?
Controller ffb setup
In car tune (all settings including ffb)
Which wheel do you use? (how does that compare when using the controller?
Weather - are you definitely getting the same weather / track temperature between the 2 systems (even in TT?) Doesn't the PC version have real weather loaded historically whereas in PS4 we get a rough average? (Track temperature and ambient temperature can be seen in Pcars Dash)

I'm just trying to exhaust all other possible differences.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
29-03-2016, 11:03
Quick test idea to try and make sure the conditions are equal for both:

Test Track always starts with heated up tyres, no matter what car. Set the weather settings identically in both games (static conditions, no random weather, no "Real Weather", no "Current Date", just an arbitrary date and an arbitrary weather setting), pick the car and go to the test track. When there, DON'T MOVE. Just let the car stand still and see how much the tyres cool down in 10 minutes of standing still.

Androphonomania
29-03-2016, 11:21
Quick test idea to try and make sure the conditions are equal for both:

Test Track always starts with heated up tyres, no matter what car. Set the weather settings identically in both games, pick the car and go to the test track. When there, DON'T MOVE. Just let the car stand still and see how much the tyres cool down in 10 minutes of standing still.

Great idea had something similar in mind. But that is even better. Will give it a try tonight or tomorrow. :)

To john, in general I am using a t500, my first tests were with identical settings in ffb. PC-FFB was way too light for me.
The last test was done with a ds4 on ps4 and a keyboard on pc. So i could do it from my couch. There is no input given so should not make a difference.

Sankyo
29-03-2016, 11:24
Yep, any kind of driving will influence the results, so just let the car stand still and monitor the cooling. Videos preferred of course :)

Doge
29-03-2016, 15:05
Thats a very scientific approach, theres no chance for interference, but if the difference is somehow related to the heating and not to the cooling speed its going to sneak under the radar.

It might be worth getting the same driver to lap the same track, with the same hardware and car setup, to actually drive long runs in both platforms. There are many consistent guys out there able to stay within 3-4 tenths for a good while, and if the sample mileage is high enough the difference (if there is one) should become clear in the end.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
29-03-2016, 15:13
Thats a very scientific approach, theres no chance for interference, but if the difference is somehow related to the heating and not to the cooling speed its going to sneak under the radar.

It might be worth getting the same driver to lap the same track, with the same hardware and car setup, to actually drive long runs in both platforms. There are many consistent guys out there able to stay within 3-4 tenths for a good while, and if the sample mileage is high enough the difference (if there is one) should become clear in the end.It's not perfect but it's a good test to run anyway.

I don't know if it'll ever be possible to get 100% comparable results between PC and consoles, one problem being the input lag on the consoles (no console game I've seen measured so far has gotten closer than twice the input of what many PC racing sims are capable of).The last time this was discussed (PS4 vs. PC) there were a few videos posted that showed clearly how with the same driver using the same controllers driving the same cars with the same setups on the same tracks with the same weather conditions was using more steering lock to get around the track in the PS4 version than the PC version, something that could easily be caused by extra input lag (car doesn't feel like it turns in as sharply so you put in a bit more steering lock subconsciously)... Not saying that's a certainty, but it's a factor.

Androphonomania
29-03-2016, 17:21
In my opinion this can be ruled out in my testing so far. Im driving on the same TV (PC and PS4) and the ffb in my very first trys (on the pc) in TT road america and spa was a mess.
But the first thing noticed in the long sweeper i had to really abuse the tyres (way too much steering lock) to have a decent amount of heat in the front tyres.Till i reduced tyre pressures and still could abuse the tyres in that long sweeper. I know how tyres behave before patch 6 and the tyre model on pc feels nearly identical to pre 6.0 because the tyre pressure can be used to reduce the heating.

On the ps4 it is different and different to what we had on 5.0. Drove a comparison to my last league race pre 6.0 in a ruf. The rears did overheat after the tyre rewind. As in 5.0 i was able to manage high 21s over 30 laps in laguna seca without melting the rears.

Until now i thought that there were differences between pre 6.0 and Post 7.0 heating/cooling. But on the pc it is identical to 5.0. On the ps4 the pressures can be used to reduce/increase the temperatures, but only, up to a point where the tyre overheats unless you slow down.

For example, it is not possible to not overheat the tyres on spa in a long Run in the gt3s. (If you pace all the time)

As i mentioned in patch 6.0 i replicated the tyre test on the ps4 and heating and cooling were the same. I dont think that at that time was a difference, but now i am sure that there is something not equal.

And in the end i like the behaviour on the PS4 much more.


Test of jussi is made. Did not see the video yet, will evaluate it when there is time.

Androphonomania
29-03-2016, 17:57
Evaluation of the Test while standing:

There is no difference in the tyre cooling alone.

Temperatures are equal !
Wont post a PC vid, as it is exactly the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOAW8aGRNxk


So now the question is, why is there a different behaviour while actually driving or rolling?

JohnSchoonsBeard
29-03-2016, 18:02
Evaluation of the Test while standing:

There is no difference in the tyre cooling alone.

Temperatures are equal !
Wont post a PC vid, as it is exactly the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOAW8aGRNxk


So now the question is, why is there a different behaviour while actually driving or rolling?

Something which is causing heat? Brakes, friction, contact with the road? Another layer within the tyre model or the control device?

Sankyo
29-03-2016, 18:44
Evaluation of the Test while standing:

There is no difference in the tyre cooling alone.

Temperatures are equal !
Wont post a PC vid, as it is exactly the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOAW8aGRNxk


So now the question is, why is there a different behaviour while actually driving or rolling?

Controller input? You can hardly copy the exact same steering, and we've had a big 'event' some time ago with the tyre model that made it much more difficult for pad players to control tyre temperatures.

Sampo
29-03-2016, 18:58
So now the question is, why is there a different behaviour while actually driving or rolling?

I thought my test proved that it can vary even on two PCs. I reached 93c in 20s and you in 15.65s. Most likely affected by driving inputs (you said you had to use some correction and I did too).

Androphonomania
30-03-2016, 02:23
So the 93 clicked at 20.00? That's quite hard to believe.

As i stated on the pc i can abuse the tyres with way too much steering lock and can drive with lower pressures.

As the tyres Tests with the M3 and the Z4 Show. The coolIng rates while driving are completely different. And the video material of the TT laps when you drive both platforms it is so obvious. WIll do some some long runs.


I am not usIng a pad.


2nd thought:
Tyes are the same, it seems that there is something different that interferes with the tyres while not being stressed.

Sankyo
30-03-2016, 07:38
Tyre heating and cooling depends on several factors, as Casey explained. If you don't have all of them controlled and equal, you cannot compare two situations. When driving, you never have the same input of acceleration, braking and steering in successive runs, and that can significantly change the situation for the tyres.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-03-2016, 08:08
Would be interesting to also see your tests being done with the UDP telemetry data. IIRC that telemetry shows the temperature from a different layer of the tyre, so could give some information as to what layer of the tyre all of this is happening at, or confirm that it's going all the way through the tyre.

Androphonomania
30-03-2016, 09:38
I dont believe its the tyre. As with casey's note and jussi's test proposal i think the tyres are the same. The Number as casey stated are identical in both tests i did. I believe it is something that interferes with the tyre while rolling.(air, form of steering input, dky)

Is there a possibility to record telemetry via udp?
Then i will do 2 identical laps, maybe i will stress the tyres more on the pc...:rolleyes:

What i really find odd, it was said that the tyre model was reroll to 5.0.
On the PC i can total confirm this, they behave like 5.0 on PS4, but on the PS4 they are much more critical. They can't be stressed like on the PC. With that in mind that we now know there is no difference in heating or cooling by the tyre model itself, it has to be sth. different.

After the reroll to 5.0 i drove a direct comparison to my last league race at Laguna in ruf. (Did two 30 laps stints around the 21 high mark) The tyres were at the maximum in this combination in 5.0. at the ps4. In 5.0. Reroll (ps4) i couldnt match my times and the rears overheated while actually being slower.

Bevause of this nd my TT experiences (i have to drive 0.15 bar lower for every tyre! on the pc), i am convinced there is a difference.

Will show.some telemetry if i get it going :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-03-2016, 10:22
Is there a possibility to record telemetry via udp?Yes, if the app/program supports it.

Doge
30-03-2016, 18:25
Tyre heating and cooling depends on several factors, as Casey explained. If you don't have all of them controlled and equal, you cannot compare two situations. When driving, you never have the same input of acceleration, braking and steering in successive runs, and that can significantly change the situation for the tyres.

While thats true, I think there are dozens of guys out there able to keep the spikes to a minimum. When I prepare for an event I always do it with the full telemetry HUD on, and the tyre temps seem to be always roughly the same at the same parts of the circuit, within maybe 2-3 C. Only when theyre heating up initially or when theyre very worn the variations between each lap become much higher.

If the difference is any higher than that -as its been hinted here-, humans driving around can confirm it exists. Of course, finding the origin is a whole different thing.

ports
30-03-2016, 18:28
I dont believe its the tyre. As with casey's note and jussi's test proposal i think the tyres are the same. The Number as casey stated are identical in both tests i did. I believe it is something that interferes with the tyre while rolling.(air, form of steering input, dky)

Is there a possibility to record telemetry via udp?
Then i will do 2 identical laps, maybe i will stress the tyres more on the pc...:rolleyes:

What i really find odd, it was said that the tyre model was reroll to 5.0.
On the PC i can total confirm this, they behave like 5.0 on PS4, but on the PS4 they are much more critical. They can't be stressed like on the PC. With that in mind that we now know there is no difference in heating or cooling by the tyre model itself, it has to be sth. different.

After the reroll to 5.0 i drove a direct comparison to my last league race at Laguna in ruf. (Did two 30 laps stints around the 21 high mark) The tyres were at the maximum in this combination in 5.0. at the ps4. In 5.0. Reroll (ps4) i couldnt match my times and the rears overheated while actually being slower.

Bevause of this nd my TT experiences (i have to drive 0.15 bar lower for every tyre! on the pc), i am convinced there is a difference.

Will show.some telemetry if i get it going :)

Yeah mate VRHive it's only for windows not android so if you have a laptop / windows tablet it's a great app.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?33881-vrHive-PC-XB1-PS4-Dashes-Telemetry-Live-Data-Arduino-Client-Server-more

Androphonomania
30-03-2016, 20:16
Here we go again. :p

This time 2 laps of TT at Road America under 2:05 in the Corvette GTE

Setup: http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/352268768

Same car - same setup - same wheel - same TV - same lap times but different tyre temps and telemetry (!) recorded via vrhive

Will eventually evaluate the telemetry, never done this in my entire life so i will insert the documents (.xls and vrhive data in this post). Maybe someone is so kind and can do something with it. I have no clue and no time left this week :P

Ok so, my pc has its problems with recording, its only a phenom 965 BE with a radeon 7770, but it does the job, as necessary information can be seen (at least for me :) )


Tyre Test PS4 - Road America 2 Laps under 2:05 TT - Same setup - Same wheel - Same TV - Temperatures measured at the pylons after finish line(highest taken)

FL/FR RL/RR
Lap 1: 111/100 106/103
Lap 2: 113/103 108/104


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2t2mrhYMkE



Tyre Test PC - Road America 2 Laps under 2:05 TT - Same setup - Same wheel - Same TV - Awful quality - Temperatures measured at the pylons after finish line(highest taken)


FL / FR RL / RR
Lap 1: 106 / 94 100 / 95
Lap 2: 107 / 94 99 / 95

Delta to PS4

Lap 1: 5 / 6 6 / 8
Lap 2: 6 / 9 9 / 9


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqiFZYDh90

Yes, there is room for error, besides that, i'm feeling way more comfortable on the PS4 as it is my "home" system.
And finally the telemetry:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/10dpmr6b3jg5dpx/XLS+Telemetry+Road+America+PS4+and+PC.zip

http://www.mediafire.com/download/v7nd229l40x5cnv/VrHive+Telemetry+Road+America+PS4+and+PC.zip

Good night. :)


Note: Telemtry evaluation will need some time.

Sankyo
30-03-2016, 20:20
While thats true, I think there are dozens of guys out there able to keep the spikes to a minimum. When I prepare for an event I always do it with the full telemetry HUD on, and the tyre temps seem to be always roughly the same at the same parts of the circuit, within maybe 2-3 C. Only when theyre heating up initially or when theyre very worn the variations between each lap become much higher.

If the difference is any higher than that -as its been hinted here-, humans driving around can confirm it exists. Of course, finding the origin is a whole different thing.

My point is more that the HUD only shows the temperature of one particular element in a complex system of heat storage and transfer. If your brakes are a higher temperature, it means that more heat is pushed into the tyre from that side and the temperature that you are monitoring might take longer to drop. And that's just one possible difference.

Doge
30-03-2016, 21:04
My point is more that the HUD only shows the temperature of one particular element in a complex system of heat storage and transfer. If your brakes are a higher temperature, it means that more heat is pushed into the tyre from that side and the temperature that you are monitoring might take longer to drop. And that's just one possible difference.

Sure. Thats why I say doing some driving in a consistent way will be good enough to confirm IF theres a difference. Finding and patching that difference is will be a different story where youll have to look much more in-depth.

Androphonomania
31-03-2016, 07:43
My point is more that the HUD only shows the temperature of one particular element in a complex system of heat storage and transfer. If your brakes are a higher temperature, it means that more heat is pushed into the tyre from that side and the temperature that you are monitoring might take longer to drop. And that's just one possible difference.

If you look at the first drive under the bridge on the straight on RA in my TT video and look at the temperature of the front right tire.

It is already 4 degrees colder (91 to 87) And that while all the corners are right hander up to this point so its not stressed at all, steering input is marginal, and the influence of the brake temperature is marginal, as they are beginning to heat up. Forgot to note i used ABS to not accidently lock the brakes.

This can be repreated endlessly, with no result in the other direction. And all of the tests driving correlate and the numbers correlate.

That difference alone, i cant explain. The tyre model can be ruled out. There has to be something while the car is actually moving.

Androphonomania
03-04-2016, 10:18
Ok, another weekend, league is pausing. This I think is my final test.

Hyptohesis is, that tyres while driving, cool down faster on the ps4 than on the pc. While standing, the cooling rate is the same.

So i did a test, in TT, in Monza, in a default setup Z4 GT3.
1. 2nd gear rev limiter, same line through parabolica and the straight.
2. At 30 seconds a roll to the 1st chicane.
3. Braking and standing still in the run-off area until the 2 min mark is reached.

Steering input as minimal as possible.To test the variance in the results, i run it three times for PC and PS4.

What was observed and measured.

1st:The exact time stamp when the 90C mark of the front right tyre is reached. (1st occurence)

2nd: The duration of cooling the tyre from 76C to 65C


The results:

Observation when the front right tyre hits the 90C mark.



Driving
PS4
PC
delta to PC



100C - 90C
28.26s
21.54s





100C - 90C
28.02s
21.46s



100C - 90C
28.08s
21.32s



avg.
28.12s
21.44s
6.68s




Back to the Hypothesis: Tyres cool down faster on the PC while actually driving can be confirmed. There is a delta of 6.68s. As three runs showed randomness as a factor is not possible. All three runs are nearly identical (variance of 0.1s). There is no possibility that an error in test or obervance can be greater than 6.68s !



SO back to test 2: Hyopthesis, tyre cooling is the same while standing.
Observance of the front right, 76C-65C





Standing
PS4
PC
delta



76C-65C
41.63s
41.86s





76C-65C
41.04s
41.48s



76C-65C
(34.64s?!)
42.01s



avg.
41.34s(excluding the 34.64s)
41.78s
-0.44s



I am excluding the 34.64s on the ps4 as they are caused by a bug or the car not standing still. Dont know, maybe worth of a investigation too. ;)

The rest of the results are obvious as stated in the previous test. While standing, the cooling rates are (nearly)identical! There is a difference of only 0.44s. Easy to say, that this is inside the margin of statistical and human error .


Vids as always need some time, will come in approx. 2-3h, this time with increased quality on the pc !


So,for me, there is a significant difference in the cooling of the tyres, while actually driving and none, while standing !

Androphonomania
03-04-2016, 10:41
Video

PC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrwucHnT-a4

PS4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGrvyEGPlcc

HINT: snychronize the both videos and watch them both at the same time. The increased cooling can clear be seen.

Sunpro
03-04-2016, 12:35
In respect of temperature is a huge difference between PS4 and PC! PS4 temperatures are at least 5C higher

JohnSchoonsBeard
03-04-2016, 17:02
Video

PC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrwucHnT-a4

PS4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGrvyEGPlcc

HINT: snychronize the both videos and watch them both at the same time. The increased cooling can clear be seen.

Excellent test Andro. Maybe you've said before but what are the exact wheel settings on PS4 and PC?

Androphonomania
03-04-2016, 18:11
Cant look at this at the moment. My t500 has to be plugged in to do so. Kind of using jack spades ffb tweak, Kerbs minus with my own scoops(0.86/0.17) Using 1080 degrees of rotation.

On pc i am driving with ffb 100 and tire force 90.

On the ps4 i am using ffb 60 tire force 75.

JohnSchoonsBeard
03-04-2016, 21:32
Cant look at this at the moment. My t500 has to be plugged in to do so. Kind of using jack spades ffb tweak, Kerbs minus with my own scoops(0.86/0.17) Using 1080 degrees of rotation.

On pc i am driving with ffb 100 and tire force 90.

On the ps4 i am using ffb 60 tire force 75.

Would be good to know the other settings like steering sensitivity for PC and PS4 and all of those settings too when you get the chance to look. I just wonder if the way the wheels default settings (or whatever they are set to in game have anything to do with it.

Nomad06
03-04-2016, 21:34
Lol

Androphonomania
04-04-2016, 05:22
Steering settings are the same. Sensitivitys at 50 no deadzone.
Dont think that these have a influence at all. Driving with Keyboard or a dualshock in a straight line have similar influences.
As far as i looked in telemetry of my TT laps in road america, there is no real difference in steering input.

Sankyo
04-04-2016, 12:11
Ok, another weekend, league is pausing. This I think is my final test.

Hyptohesis is, that tyres while driving, cool down faster on the ps4 than on the pc. While standing, the cooling rate is the same.

So i did a test, in TT, in Monza, in a default setup Z4 GT3.
1. 2nd gear rev limiter, same line through parabolica and the straight.
2. At 30 seconds a roll to the 1st chicane.
3. Braking and standing still in the run-off area until the 2 min mark is reached.

Steering input as minimal as possible.To test the variance in the results, i run it three times for PC and PS4.

What was observed and measured.

1st:The exact time stamp when the 90C mark of the front right tyre is reached. (1st occurence)

2nd: The duration of cooling the tyre from 76C to 65C


The results:

Observation when the front right tyre hits the 90C mark.



Driving
PS4
PC
delta to PC



100C - 90C
28.26s
21.54s





100C - 90C
28.02s
21.46s



100C - 90C
28.08s
21.32s



avg.
28.12s
21.44s
6.68s




Back to the Hypothesis: Tyres cool down faster on the PC while actually driving can be confirmed. There is a delta of 6.68s. As three runs showed randomness as a factor is not possible. All three runs are nearly identical (variance of 0.1s). There is no possibility that an error in test or obervance can be greater than 6.68s !



SO back to test 2: Hyopthesis, tyre cooling is the same while standing.
Observance of the front right, 76C-65C





Standing
PS4
PC
delta



76C-65C
41.63s
41.86s





76C-65C
41.04s
41.48s



76C-65C
(34.64s?!)
42.01s



avg.
41.34s(excluding the 34.64s)
41.78s
-0.44s



I am excluding the 34.64s on the ps4 as they are caused by a bug or the car not standing still. Dont know, maybe worth of a investigation too. ;)

The rest of the results are obvious as stated in the previous test. While standing, the cooling rates are (nearly)identical! There is a difference of only 0.44s. Easy to say, that this is inside the margin of statistical and human error .


Vids as always need some time, will come in approx. 2-3h, this time with increased quality on the pc !


So,for me, there is a significant difference in the cooling of the tyres, while actually driving and none, while standing !

Looks pretty decent, but did you test with zero FFB on both systems just to make 100% sure that FFB isn't influencing your driving and hence the results?

Androphonomania
04-04-2016, 15:34
Nope i didn't, as a lack of ffb would result in possible oversteering and inconsistence as i am not used to it.
The tyre test in zolder, the same in a smaller scale though was done with a ds4 on the ps4 and a keyboard on pc. Didn't make any difference in straight line...

Doge
05-04-2016, 15:02
Nope i didn't, as a lack of ffb would result in possible oversteering and inconsistence as i am not used to it.
The tyre test in zolder, the same in a smaller scale though was done with a ds4 on the ps4 and a keyboard on pc. Didn't make any difference in straight line...

I think that makes much more sense than running with it off. Without FFB its harder to do something as simple as driving in a straight line.

Androphonomania
07-04-2016, 14:51
Any news regarding this "issue" or feature? Whatever you may call this. Makes it pretty much an other game on the ps4/pc. :D
I like the PS4 cooling rate. Adds at least some benefit for tyre awareness.

Androphonomania
10-04-2016, 15:06
Hello, I am sorry to highlight this once in a while. Is there any kind of investigation running? Any clue what is causing the difference?

Thanks in advance

Androphonomania
15-04-2016, 06:43
As my league starts this sunday with a test event, i will split preparation and will do 2 long runs, GT3 (10 laps) on both platforms in hot conditions.
Tested on PS4 and the tyres are really hot while further increase in tyre pressure is not possible.

Until then, everyone driving on pc is driving an arcade racer. PS4 users are the real simracers. :D

Mahjik
15-04-2016, 13:26
Disclaimer: I don't work for SMS, nor have I seen their source code.

I do work in IT, and have been in software development since the early 90's (yes, I'm old). It's always difficult to get the same exact code behavior across different architectures. The code can be the same, but can perform differently due to many reasons: compiler optimization differences, instruction execution based on architecture, performance bottlenecks that difference between platforms, etc...

Where I currently work, we develop the same code across the three main UNIX suppliers: Red Hat (Linux), IBM (AIX), HP (HP-UX). Even given they are suppose to be relatively the same, each vendor has implemented their version of the operating system differently than the other. While we do try to use the lowest compatible source code compiler that will work on all three, the code still executes differently across all three platforms. It's just how things work.

Now back to this thread, I'm actually surprised there aren't more differences between the platforms for pCARS. That means SMS put in a hell of a job to try to get them this close. In short, there will be differences between the platform but they won't be "source code" differences.

Androphonomania
15-04-2016, 15:49
Yeah, SMS did a hell of a job. And the tyre cooling while driving until the reroll to 5.0. was identical !

At the reroll to 5.0.model (december?) something has been overseen that had influence on the tyre temperatures. And now it seems sth. has been overseen on the ps4 version.

I am just curious why once the tyre behaved identical, but now they do not anymore.
And by my experience i know that the tyres behave on the pc just like they did pre patch 6.0. on the PS4 ! (and on the pc i guess.)
I am also curious what behaviour the xbox version has.

Cold or hot tyres. In regarding of the upcoming esports competition this is a important question as the consoles arent seperated.

The PC users can drive with less tyre pressure. If the xbox users can do it also this could bring up some problems.

Mahjik
15-04-2016, 19:11
The PC users can drive with less tyre pressure. If the xbox users can do it also this could bring up some problems.

Why? You cannot play cross-platform anyway so why would that bring up problems? The only remote difference I could see is if there is some sort of eSport event where what is provided is something different than what the user is used to (i.e. they own a XB1, but the event is using PS4's). Even then, they would just adapt and move on.

Androphonomania
15-04-2016, 19:26
But the announced and recent started esports championship does. If (and i really dont have a clue if xbox cooling is pc or ps4 style) the whole championship on console could become obsolete if there is a difference between xbox and ps4.

If xbox and ps4 share the lower cooling rate while driving, it doesn't make any difference. That's right. But i dont know that... I'm just giving hints. No offense.

Androphonomania
22-04-2016, 06:41
Thanks to some investigation from a xbox user there is some information i want to share with you.

As far as observations show there is no difference in the cooling behaviour of the tyres between ps4 and xbox1.

That raises a question to me. If sms know (knew) about the differences between console and pc and split the esports challenge intentionally has the change zo the console tyres been intentionally?
That console users have decreased cooling while driving?

Or is it just a coincidence that SMS is not aware of?


Right now for all console users (xbox/ps4) you have to raise tyre pressures(in relation to pc) and for some track/weather combination it is not possible to not overheat the tyres.

Best regards Androphonomania

Sankyo
22-04-2016, 09:22
I don't think that there is any intentional difference, as Casey mentioned the code and parameters are identical on all platforms, or at least should be.

Androphonomania
22-04-2016, 12:47
Yes and casey is absolutely right. The tyres cooling numbers are the same. While standing there is no difference at all. I highlighted it in my "testing".

The tyre behaviour while driving is different, but that the difference is not platform specific. We have 2 cooling behaviours:

PC (identical to patch 5.0.)
Xbox/PS4 that have the 5.0 model but decreased cooling while driving.

It is just odd that before repatching there wasnt a difference, but now there is. And as test shows it is related to something interfering with the tyre, not the tyre itself, but only on ps4/xbox.

Androphonomania
05-05-2016, 20:56
I think this thread can be closed. I wont do any more research and the devs dont show any interest in finding or searching for the inconsistence.

I hope Pcars2 will do better, as they hopefully know what caused the difference since the tyre rollback.

Mahjik
05-05-2016, 21:06
We don't close threads just because activity slows down. That's not how it works. We close threads that are destructive and show no signs of being productive. This is not one of those threads.

One last thing, just cause you don't have devs throwing post after post in your thread doesn't mean they don't care.

JohnSchoonsBeard
07-05-2016, 09:31
Yes and casey is absolutely right. The tyres cooling numbers are the same. While standing there is no difference at all. I highlighted it in my "testing".

The tyre behaviour while driving is different, but that the difference is not platform specific. We have 2 cooling behaviours:

PC (identical to patch 5.0.)
Xbox/PS4 that have the 5.0 model but decreased cooling while driving.

It is just odd that before repatching there wasnt a difference, but now there is. And as test shows it is related to something interfering with the tyre, not the tyre itself, but only on ps4/xbox.

I'm still interested if one of the devs can comment on this. How will whatever difference there appears to be affect Project Cars 2? Is the difference between consoles and PC the reason the latest esports time trials competition was split? I don't mind if that's the case but it would be interesting to know if we can nail down the reason. There seems to be a difference.

Which is the most realistic? If we want the most realistic heating behaviour should we be using a console or PC? Is it something as fundamental as how the drivers for controller and wheels differ between PC and console. Are the devs able to replicate Androphonomania's driving in a straight line test and get the difference between systems that he does? It would be handy to work out before Project Cars 2.

fuschs
28-07-2016, 02:22
Hi there,

Just went through the previous posts. I came across as I was looking for knowledge about tyres. I'm playing on Xbox One in a GT3 league.

As I practiced for the race, I watched tons of track guides and hot laps, as well as previous league races for this track, and tried to reproduce this for the race. I use a controller, and while it doesn't beat a wheel for a smooth input I can assure you I've worked on that 10+ hours. I reached the point where tyre temperatures are a lot higher on Xbox One than PC, to a certain extent. My observations might not be called a proper test and I can't agree more ; from my point of view the question marks raised here are 100% accurate. I struggle to get the temperatures at an optimal working temp of 95-100 and always end up overheating the tyres way more than the pc guys, even if I back off few seconds (also mentioning the fact I'm not as quick as them while trying to be smooth).

So far I've understood for GT3 the benchmarks for tyres are 2.0 hot pressure and 95-100C but not more. I've toyed around and no matter what I did,I would always overheat the tyres. If there are still people interested, I can share some results from practicing for the upcoming rounds. I drive the Z4 GT3 so anyone who has experience with it can provide help as I'm quite new into this.

Androphonomania
28-07-2016, 18:03
As stated on the previous posts. There is a significant difference in tyre cooling. This leads to a point where you cant prevent the tyres from overheating on consoles.

Much more demanding than on pc.

Schnizz58
28-07-2016, 18:21
As stated on the previous posts. There is a significant difference in tyre cooling. This leads to a point where you cant prevent the tyres from overheating on consoles.
I play on a console and don't have a problem with tires overheating.

Androphonomania
28-07-2016, 20:41
Then you do not drive fast enough. It is that easy. That is one thing why most of the people do not notice the difference. If you drive both platforms it is massive. (0.15 bar difference) Yeah. That is easy. And all up to decreased cooling rates while driving. (On console version)

If i drive at full pace, usually 6 tenths off from the likes of f1-masa, then there are enough car/track combos where you cant control the temperatures with the tyre pressure.

Schnizz58
28-07-2016, 20:49
I believe what you said was:

you cant prevent the tyres from overheating on consoles.

Androphonomania
28-07-2016, 22:01
I believe what you said was:

Oh, come on it is a racing game. Of course i can lap a second slower than on pc and my tyres wont overheat.
And by the way you left out the res of the sentence. "Leads to a point..."

There is detailed information about the tyre cooling in this thread. Just read the whole page.