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leon1772
14-03-2016, 06:50
Hello,

Here is an interview of Romain MONTI champion Trofeo Maserati 2015. Interview in french but very representative of reality. I hope IAN BELL will read this interview and it will take into account the opinion of the pilot (which is what the players think).

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/assetto-corsa-vs-project-cars-par-romain-monti/

Don Rudi
14-03-2016, 07:02
Hello,

Here is an interview of Romain MONTI champion Trofeo Maserati 2015. Interview in french but very representative of reality. I hope IAN BELL will read this interview and it will take into account the opinion of the pilot (which is what the players think).

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/assetto-corsa-vs-project-cars-par-romain-monti/

Very interesting interview indeed

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 07:47
I've now seen one actual driver review both games and prefer AC -

Over the at least 15 I know have either physics tested or enjoy Pcars :|

Way to go AC! You've got...that guy!

Sankyo
14-03-2016, 08:11
Well my French is not the best, but it seems that he's focusing on pCARS having all these driving assists and much more content making it a mass-market product, and AC is more realistic because the FFB felt better for him right from the start?

Sloskimo
14-03-2016, 08:34
Well my French is not the best, but it seems that he's focusing on pCARS having all these driving assists and much more content making it a mass-market product, and AC is more realistic because the FFB felt better for him right from the start?

That seems to be the gist of it yes. While he's infinitely more qualified than me to make any point about things driving, I'm not sure the points he makes are very in-depth.

My problem is more with the TS lumping all players into: "This is what the players think." Not that I think Ian will be listening - some say he's too busy counting money, driving his Ferrari and thinking up other nefarious plans to defraud the world :) - but please do not turn Pcars 2 into Assetto Corsa. In the end I just do not like driving in AC much, which is personal preference, don't really care which one is more realistic also, or which drivers say what.

We need a conspiracy theory though: so I guess Kunos bribed that dude with a lifetime supply of coleslaw, who could resist that offer?

Invincible
14-03-2016, 08:43
We need a conspiracy theory though: so I guess Kunos bribed that dude with a lifetime supply of coleslaw, who could resist that offer?

Cluck could. :p

On a more serious note: I'm also a bit distracted by the claim of the OP "is what the players think". I've played both pcars and AC and I clearly find pcars more realistic. And somehow it sounds like the opinions of various race drivers like Rene Rast, Ben Collins, Nicholas Hamilton and a few others are wrong because this guy said so.
I mean, there are a bunch of race drivers out there who gave their inputs during development of pcars, who said that SMS got it right - and this sole guys says not. Who do I trust more? To me, it's obvious.

cluck
14-03-2016, 08:58
Couldn't care less to be honest. All that matters is what I feel when I'm driving and, damn near most of the time, I feel good.

So Sim A feels 1% better than Sim B. Who cares. If you like how Sim A feels, play Sim A. If you like how Sim B feels, play Sim B. But don't tell Sim B that it must feel like Sim A, they are two different games, probably running very different engines underneath, they will never feel the same.

I'd be interested to hear Romain Monti's opinion on how it feels to drive night races in Assetto Corsa compared to pCARS :).

(Yes, that was a deliberately cheap shot)

pollinho123
14-03-2016, 09:14
I'm getting tired of the whole comparing thing. Both games are on a very high level, both are fun and both are pretty realistic as far as I can tell. I actually prefer the feel of the cars in AC even though I couldn't explain why exactly but then again the AI is so dull that I just cant enjoy more than hotlapping in AC. I however messed up my FFB in AC and was too lazy to fix that so I just don't play it anymore (at least for now :D)

cluck
14-03-2016, 09:21
I'm getting tired of the whole comparing thing.Indeed. It's like trying to argue that one variety of apple is better than another. By all means state why you think your favourite variety of apple is your favourite, but don't try and tell me that my choice of flavour is wrong or that my apple doesn't taste like an apple - or that it isn't a 'real' apple because it's a mixed variety type. We are both eating apples and we are both enjoying them. Life really is too short to argue over something as petty as one's choice of apple and so it is with one's choice of racing sim/game.

Sankyo
14-03-2016, 09:42
Race drivers are just people, too, when playing computer games. They do have real-life reference, but in the end it's personal preference anyway because the experiences of playing a computer game and real-life driving are still miles apart no matter how realistic the physics engine is. Game FFB and real-life forces just cannot be compared. Anyone who drove a few laps in a go-kart will know what I mean. It's just what clicks with you personally and you find most fun/informative/immersive.

I'm glad we had and still get input from Ben and Nic regarding physics, so we can tune the game's tyre model to represent reality as closely as possible, but whether a game as a whole is more enjoyable is all down to each individual's preferences.

IMO

DreamsKnight
14-03-2016, 11:30
looking photos, i think a couple of link inside this forum could help him to change ideas. :D

PeteUplink
14-03-2016, 11:51
Isn't this all just swings and roundabouts? I seem to remember a conversation on another forum a long time ago as to whether Grand Prix 4 or F1 Challenge '99-'02 was the better simulation... It doesn't really matter, so long as you enjoy it.

leon1772
14-03-2016, 12:18
Couldn't care less to be honest. All that matters is what I feel when I'm driving and, damn near most of the time, I feel good.

So Sim A feels 1% better than Sim B. Who cares. If you like how Sim A feels, play Sim A. If you like how Sim B feels, play Sim B. But don't tell Sim B that it must feel like Sim A, they are two different games, probably running very different engines underneath, they will never feel the same.

I'd be interested to hear Romain Monti's opinion on how it feels to drive night races in Assetto Corsa compared to pCARS :).

(Yes, that was a deliberately cheap shot)

The driver speaks mostly physics cars by comparing AC and PCARS.
For the rest of the interview, there is still a lot of positive points PCARS (variety of car and circuit, graphics, weather...). After if you prefer to retain only the critics, it's your choice. For the rest and I more or less agree with that AC is more oriented simulation that PCARS. Unfortunately I find it unfortunate that you do not accept criticism from a true driver (who also is champion in its class).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-03-2016, 12:22
Unfortunately I find it unfortunate that you do not accept criticism from a true driver (who also is champion in its class).We do, most definitely. The thing is that we also have the criticism of closer to 20 others, most of whom don't really agree with him. So we accept his criticism, but it's not the be all end all, it's weighted against the others as well.

cluck
14-03-2016, 12:49
The driver speaks mostly physics cars by comparing AC and PCARS.
For the rest of the interview, there is still a lot of positive points PCARS (variety of car and circuit, graphics, weather...). After if you prefer to retain only the critics, it's your choice. For the rest and I more or less agree with that AC is more oriented simulation that PCARS. Unfortunately I find it unfortunate that you do not accept criticism from a true driver (who also is champion in its class).I haven't even clicked the link. I don't care what he has to say, it is one person's feeling about one game vs another. It is not going to change what I think of either game one iota.

Adrien Lopes
14-03-2016, 12:55
The driver speaks mostly physics cars by comparing AC and PCARS.

Not really. The only thing he says about physics is "I can do more things in PC at Bathurst with the McLaren than I could IRL. Because the car is more stable and has more grip".
He never does a direct comparison between the two games.
To me, it's sounds like the interview of a guy that likes assetto more because his friends told him it is better.
He's not a "core gamer" imho : He thinks that AC is open source, he had to call someone to fix his FFB in PC when it took 2 mins of research on those forums and he contradicts himself by stating that PC is most "plug and play" and after that AC is the most "plug and play".


En terme de prise en main quand j’ai débuté avec Assetto la configuration du volant était bonne d’emblée, j’ai pu commencer à rouler.

vs


P-Cars est beaucoup plus grand public [...]. Il est aussi conçu pour être plus simple de prise en main.

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 13:08
Indeed. It's like trying to argue that one variety of apple is better than another. By all means state why you think your favourite variety of apple is your favourite, but don't try and tell me that my choice of flavour is wrong or that my apple doesn't taste like an apple - or that it isn't a 'real' apple because it's a mixed variety type. We are both eating apples and we are both enjoying them. Life really is too short to argue over something as petty as one's choice of apple and so it is with one's choice of racing sim/game.

Hey speak for yourself, but you make a pie with anything other than granny smith you're gonna have a bad time.

Granny Smith. Apple of the year 2016.

Salty Dog
14-03-2016, 13:16
Wish i could understand French, ive no idea what he's talkin about.

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 13:20
Wish i could understand French, ive no idea what he's talkin about.

Cliffnotes version: "Pcars is great, AC is great. Pcars is okay, but I needed friends to set up my wheel. AC is more okay-er. Pcars is okay, AC is great. I really like AC."

Sankyo
14-03-2016, 13:21
... For the rest and I more or less agree with that AC is more oriented simulation that PCARS. Unfortunately I find it unfortunate that you do not accept criticism from a true driver (who also is champion in its class).
The point is that stating "game X is more simulation than game Y" without arguments just doesn't mean anything, even if you're a real-life race driver. What makes a simulation for you? What are the most important things to get right? How important is the lack of certain features?

I don't see the criticism in that interview, only a personal preference of the guy for game X over game Y. The problem is that fans of game X interpret the personal preference of a race driver as proof that their favourite game is better/more realistic, ignoring that it's just a game that some people like while others prefer a different game, for whatever reason.

Dakpilot
14-03-2016, 13:23
People's opinions are always interesting, although at the bottom of the 'feature' it does carry the disclaimer

Advertisement

I did not know he had raced/tested a Mclaren at Bathurst, but he did come 19th in French 2015 GT3 in an Audi R8 ultra so he certainly has enough experience to comment

and has been said, getting the best results out of a (any) driving sim is sadly not as simple as installing it and switching it on, PCars is very guilty as well in this aspect

Cheers Dakpilot

BigFred
14-03-2016, 13:26
Indeed. It's like trying to argue that one variety of apple is better than another. By all means state why you think your favourite variety of apple is your favourite, but don't try and tell me that my choice of flavour is wrong or that my apple doesn't taste like an apple - or that it isn't a 'real' apple because it's a mixed variety type. We are both eating apples and we are both enjoying them. Life really is too short to argue over something as petty as one's choice of apple and so it is with one's choice of racing sim/game.

You're missing the point though.

A lot of sim racers get off on the fact that what they are playing is as realistic as possible. The idea that the game replicates real life exactly is important to them because it indicates to them that IRL they would be a successful racing driver too if they are successful at the game.

It's not enough for most sim racers to be good at or enjoy the game for what it is.

That's why the collective opinion of what is the best/most realistic/accurate sim is important to a sim racer. Because if a sim racer succeeds at that sim, he or she is the best in a sim that replicates the real world as close as possible, and therefore is the best at the closest thing that exists to being a real racing driver.

I don't trust peoples opinions who are paid to provide input. Someone who is paid to provide input of course is going to say their sim is the best, because a) they are paid and b) if they say their sim is no good then they are not doing their job properly. The only ones I would trust are independents, and again a lot of these have their own agenda.

I like PCars for what it is. It's a fun game. I'm not qualified to say whether or not it is a good/the best sim or not. I don't really care either way. But there are a lot of people that do, and its important to recognise that mindset, especially as a developer, even if you don't subscribe to it.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-03-2016, 13:50
Not really. The only thing he says about physics is "I can do more things in PC at Bathurst with the McLaren than I could IRL. Because the car is more stable and has more grip". Hmmm, I wonder. I just downloaded the 2015 2:01.XXX McLaren 650S GT3 qualifying lap from YT and compared that to a 2:03 McLaren lap from pCARS (which isn't the record but best I could find right now) via a video editing software, put both videos side by side and played them together, and what I saw kind of contradicts that. The cars were exactly the same speed down the straights, they both handled the straights in the same time to within such a small margin that it barely matters. But the real life McLaren GT3 car constantly pulled ahead in corners and always looked more settled in every corner and situation.

So I don't know, maybe his McLaren when he drove it was on worse tyres or set up badly, but at least the 2015 car seems to have very similar, or possibly even more grip and stability on Bathurst than the pCARS car. The biggest gains were made on the braking zones and in the corners.

Of course the 650S benefits from some aero upgrades compared to the 12C, but the overall performance level of GT3 cars hasn't had a dramatic sharp rise in recent years around the world, though Bathurst times have come tumbling down (probably down to local BoP to some extent).

FR-Alan
14-03-2016, 14:01
We are in front of champions on this forum. Even without givin a clue of what he said, and even read what he said, this man is wrong.
For you to understand. For him :
1. PCARS amazing with night, rain, an graphically ahead. Quantity of cars and tracks ahead also. When you play it is more beautifull and more imersive than AC at first.
2. AC is more quality on cars, track than quantity. That the point he consider more SIM.
3. PCARS more accesible to everybody because you can put a lot of assists on. Whereas you are beginner you can play PCARS.
4. With his wheel, it worked first with AC but needed assist to make the config of his wheel work on PCars.
He feels more to train on AC maybe for realism but go on PCars when the content is not in AC.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-03-2016, 14:08
2. AC is more quality on carsI'm not really convinced about that. I know pCARS has many peculiarities, but I've seen nothing that shows AC has less of them, just often in different places, and some of the things they've done with the setups of the car are very annoying to me because they made the setup so locked down that you can't even try to fix them (like Zonda R using almost the wrong order of magnitude for springs, almost none of the GT3 cars having gearboxes with gear ratios matching homologation documents etc.). Both have their good points, both have their bad points.

Sankyo
14-03-2016, 14:34
You're missing the point though.

A lot of sim racers get off on the fact that what they are playing is as realistic as possible. The idea that the game replicates real life exactly is important to them because it indicates to them that IRL they would be a successful racing driver too if they are successful at the game.

It's not enough for most sim racers to be good at or enjoy the game for what it is.

That's why the collective opinion of what is the best/most realistic/accurate sim is important to a sim racer. Because if a sim racer succeeds at that sim, he or she is the best in a sim that replicates the real world as close as possible, and therefore is the best at the closest thing that exists to being a real racing driver.

I don't trust peoples opinions who are paid to provide input. Someone who is paid to provide input of course is going to say their sim is the best, because a) they are paid and b) if they say their sim is no good then they are not doing their job properly. The only ones I would trust are independents, and again a lot of these have their own agenda.

I like PCars for what it is. It's a fun game. I'm not qualified to say whether or not it is a good/the best sim or not. I don't really care either way. But there are a lot of people that do, and its important to recognise that mindset, especially as a developer, even if you don't subscribe to it.
The problem is that many hardcore simracers know zip about physics and realism, but are very loud about it. So no matter what you do as a developer, there's always a hardcore sim racer saying your game is crap because of some silly argument. Of all people, hardcore sim racers have the biggest blinders on and display extreme fanboy behaviour. As a game developer, I'd pay no attention at all to their opinions about realism.

But that's just my personal opinion.

E_Luckow
14-03-2016, 14:36
Very "good post", with the intention of setting fire all around.

The best place for this crap would be in the AC foruns, or RD...places where bashing PCars is "cool".

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 14:57
Bashing videogames for almost any reason is pretty uncool, imho...

BigFred
14-03-2016, 14:58
The problem is that many hardcore simracers know zip about physics and realism, but are very loud about it. So no matter what you do as a developer, there's always a hardcore sim racer saying your game is crap because of some silly argument. Of all people, hardcore sim racers have the biggest blinders on and display extreme fanboy behaviour. As a game developer, I'd pay no attention at all to their opinions about realism.

But that's just my personal opinion.

This is true.

It's hard to find a qualified opinion. For example, a sim racer may have never driven a real car. That said, maybe a real racer that evaluates the sim hasn't set up the wheel properly. Just because someone races IRL, doesn't mean that they are good at evaluating a sim or that they are actually good IRL (some of them race because they are rich rather than because they are good). IME a real racer is likely to be the person who actually has least interest in evaluating the sim and spending hours getting the settings right, that of course vary massively from game to game.

All you can do is look at the collective and hope that the wisdom of the crowd gets it right. Even if it doesn't, then going with what the majority believe is the best is likely to get you the most "sim racer" respect. Which is what a lot of sim racers are after anyway.

Of course once you have decided on your "best sim" as a sim racer it's in your best interest to go out and rubbish everything else.

RimanDk
14-03-2016, 14:59
Bashing videogames for almost any reason is pretty uncool, imho...

And yet an incredibly popular passtime =)

BigFred
14-03-2016, 15:02
Oh I don't know. Some are truly rubbish.

I'm somewhat torn on the perfectionist issue. On the one hand these people who claim a game is unplayable just because some minor detail isn't quite right make me laugh.

On the other, it's lack of tolerance of imperfection that makes people push things forward and make them better.

The are some efforts that are so bad the developers deserve everything they get.

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 15:03
And yet an incredibly popular passtime =)

The negativity of people often confuses and astounds me, really. They find the most inane things to vehemently complain about. ;-;

One would think that because we all share the same passions, we'd all be able to get along much better.

Well, I'm not really unguilty myself. I guess it's just a matter of humanity.

Yorkie065
14-03-2016, 15:23
This is true.

It's hard to find a qualified opinion. For example, a sim racer may have never driven a real car. That said, maybe a real racer that evaluates the sim hasn't set up the wheel properly. Just because someone races IRL, doesn't mean that they are good at evaluating a sim or that they are actually good IRL (some of them race because they are rich rather than because they are good). IME a real racer is likely to be the person who actually has least interest in evaluating the sim and spending hours getting the settings right, that of course vary massively from game to game.

All you can do is look at the collective and hope that the wisdom of the crowd gets it right. Even if it doesn't, then going with what the majority believe is the best is likely to get you the most "sim racer" respect. Which is what a lot of sim racers are after anyway.

Of course once you have decided on your "best sim" as a sim racer it's in your best interest to go out and rubbish everything else.

I'd also add to that, it also depends on what sims they have played. You read about professional drivers a racing game, whether it being forza, GT, AC, iRacing, R3E or whatever and say that it is the most realistic racing experience they've had outside of the real world. Now that could be paid marketing talk, but that could also be due to a lack of experience in other sims. If they play one, yes they have the real world to compare to, and the game may feel very good and very realistic but other games may do certain aspects better than others. For instance I rate PCars for having the best FFB and tyre model, yet I think that AC has better suspension and weight physics. Now both are good in both games, but one does it better than another and had I of not known about the other, I could just praise one all day long without a proper comparison.

Also some people get the notion that a good sim has to be difficult, the cars have to be hard to drive and really punishing when I'm pretty sure that is not the case with driving a real world race car. I've been told that they are easy to drive, until you take and push them to their limits and then you're on a knife edge. Obviously you get complexities with various systems and electronics, and then certain cars only really being operational within certain performance limits so there is an element of pushing needed, but I don't think there is a sim at the moment that fully replicates everything that is in the real car to the finest of details. I could be wrong though :p

balderz002
14-03-2016, 15:30
because it indicates to them that IRL they would be a successful racing driver too if they are successful at the game.

NOTICE TO ALL:

If your good at CoD, YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU - To volunteer for Special Forces missions to rid the world of the tyrrany of terrorism.



Sorry, too much sarcasm............ Its been a slow day.

E_Luckow
14-03-2016, 15:45
I'm preparing myself to kill zombies.

BigFred
14-03-2016, 15:55
NOTICE TO ALL:

If your good at CoD, YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU - To volunteer for Special Forces missions to rid the world of the tyrrany of terrorism.



Sorry, too much sarcasm............ Its been a slow day.

It's harder to simulate combat than racing. I'd argue that racing sims are a lot more like real racing than call of duty is like real combat.

A lot of people want the sims to be as like real life as possible because they want to buy into the fantasy that they are a racing driver IRL. Otherwise why would they be so anal about having all the settings and the cars performing as close to real life as possible ? Surely if that were the case then the most playable or fun game would be the one to aim for rather than the most realistic.

Whether the sim is actually anywhere close to real life, and whether being good at the sim actually would make you a good racer IRL is a different issue.

Empathy - understanding the mindset of other people - just because you don't have that mindset doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 16:02
It's harder to simulate combat than racing. I'd argue that racing sims are a lot more like real racing than call of duty is like real combat.

A lot of people want the sims to be as like real life as possible because they want to buy into the fantasy that they are a racing driver IRL. Otherwise why would they be so anal about having all the settings and the cars performing as close to real life as possible ? Surely if that were the case then the most playable or fun game would be the one to aim for rather than the most realistic.

Whether the sim is actually anywhere close to real life, and whether being good at the sim actually would make you a good racer IRL is a different issue.

Empathy - understanding the mindset of other people - just because you don't have that mindset doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't know, I think it's just a niche.

Bohemia does an incredibly good job at combat simulation. But there isn't much in the market of battlespace simulators because most people just want to shoot stuff in the face without worry.

BigFred
14-03-2016, 16:26
I don't know, I think it's just a niche.

Bohemia does an incredibly good job at combat simulation. But there isn't much in the market of battlespace simulators because most people just want to shoot stuff in the face without worry.

It's probably not a question that a lot of people want to ask in too much detail. A bit close to home methinks.

I took the time to understand why I like and why I want to play racing games a long time ago. Doubt though whether the average sim racer does, or would want to come to terms with the analysis.

Nevertheless it is something games/experience companies think about a lot and indeed should do.

If your mission statement is to create a game that does its best to make a player believe they are a real racing driver, that's a very different objective than if your mission statement is to make a game that is as fun as possible based around racing. In fact few games have such polarised objectives. But people when they start creating something have an idea of what they are trying to achieve in terms of user experience.

RimanDk
14-03-2016, 17:59
It's probably not a question that a lot of people want to ask in too much detail. A bit close to home methinks.

I took the time to understand why I like and why I want to play racing games a long time ago. Doubt though whether the average sim racer does, or would want to come to terms with the analysis.

Nevertheless it is something games/experience companies think about a lot and indeed should do.

If your mission statement is to create a game that does its best to make a player believe they are a real racing driver, that's a very different objective than if your mission statement is to make a game that is as fun as possible based around racing. In fact few games have such polarised objectives. But people when they start creating something have an idea of what they are trying to achieve in terms of user experience.

Don't know about everybody else, but I'm in it for the experience. I love cars. I don't get to drive much irl and I probably will never be able to take a Ferrari or a GT3 car around a track and push it to its limits. Not in my life. Sims provide a window onto that world. They give a taste of what the experience is like. Sure, it's not the same thing, but with the right equipment you can somewhat achieve suspension of disbelief. I know I already do now. Once VR matures further, I am sure it will be quite convincing - engrossing, at the very least.

I don't really give a damn about being a race driver. I am under no illusion that if I sat in a race car in the middle of a field, I would be able to hold my own, just because I can do so in the game. I like pushing the cars and myself in the game, because I like the game and I like getting better at what I like. I don't have any further motivation than that. I might be the odd case here, I don't know. I am all about where the rubber meets the road, the feel of the car "under and around" me. I can spend hours trying to get better at drifting or trying to improve my time, or simply driving around a lovely location. Actual racing can be very stressful and unsettling, even without the potentially nasty accidents you get in real life. As such, racing in itself is actually not the first reason I play these games, at all. Thankfully Project CARS has provided - and continues to provide - me with all the thrills that I seek.

BigFred
14-03-2016, 18:31
Don't know about everybody else, but I'm in it for the experience. I love cars. I don't get to drive much irl and I probably will never be able to take a Ferrari or a GT3 car around a track and push it to its limits. Not in my life. Sims provide a window onto that world. They give a taste of what the experience is like. Sure, it's not the same thing, but with the right equipment you can somewhat achieve suspension of disbelief. I know I already do now. Once VR matures further, I am sure it will be quite convincing - engrossing, at the very least.

I don't really give a damn about being a race driver. I am under no illusion that if I sat in a race car in the middle of a field, I would be able to hold my own, just because I can do so in the game. I like pushing the cars and myself in the game, because I like the game and I like getting better at what I like. I don't have any further motivation than that. I might be the odd case here, I don't know. I am all about where the rubber meets the road, the feel of the car "under and around" me. I can spend hours trying to get better at drifting or trying to improve my time, or simply driving around a lovely location. Actual racing can be very stressful and unsettling, even without the potentially nasty accidents you get in real life. As such, racing in itself is actually not the first reason I play these games, at all. Thankfully Project CARS has provided - and continues to provide - me with all the thrills that I seek.

Doesn't quite add up. In the first para you talk about suspension of disbelief (ie believing you are a racing driver IRL is important to you). Then in the second para you say I don't really give a damn about being a race driver.

I can see it being one or the other but not both.

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 18:42
Doesn't quite add up. In the first para you talk about suspension of disbelief (ie believing you are a racing driver IRL is important to you). Then in the second para you say I don't really give a damn about being a race driver.

I can see it being one or the other but not both.

Using suspension of disbelief, and using real life are completely different things. He wants to suspend his disbelief to be a racing driver for a little while. He does not care to actually go and become one. It's pretty simple.

JessicaWalter
14-03-2016, 18:47
I used to enjoy Super Mario Bros. but I talked to a plumber and found out how unrealistic it is. Granny Smith is absolutely the best apple, though. I asked a worm.

Umer Ahmad
14-03-2016, 18:52
Hey speak for yourself, but you make a pie with anything other than granny smith you're gonna have a bad time.

Granny Smith. Apple of the year 2016.

pfft.

Canadian Ambrosia = #1

Honorable mention: Braeburn and Fuji

BigFred
14-03-2016, 18:58
Using suspension of disbelief, and using real life are completely different things. He wants to suspend his disbelief to be a racing driver for a little while. He does not care to actually go and become one. It's pretty simple.

So he does want to become one for a little while. And yes, it is simple. If you don't want to feel like you are a racing driver, best not to play a racing sim !

All around the world people spend a load of money on hardware. On wheeels. On gear shifts. On software. On seats. On VR headsets. On sound systems. They don't spend it to feel less like a racing driver, they spend it to feel more like one, because ultimately they want to be one.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-03-2016, 19:10
If you don't want to feel like you are a racing driver, best not to play a racing sim !I like the driving aspect most of all myself. Too bad racing sims are the only place you can get decently simulated cars to drive, no-one has yet made the driving game I want (imagine essentially Test Drive Unlimited 2 but with pCARS physics, but without the shit story etc., just being able to drive with various cars, and possibly in a more interesting location like the European Alps or some Japanese mountainous areas).

EDIT: Seeing as Jaroslav liked this, we still sitting on those "pCARS World" plans? =)

DreamsKnight
14-03-2016, 19:32
nintendo vs master system
snes vs mega drive
gameboy vs gamegear
PS vs Nintendo 64
PS2 vs xbox
ps3 vs xbox 360
ps4 vs xbox one
apple vs windows
apple vs samsung
apple vs android
Pcars vs AC

it is the same ooold story. wars for poors. be happy you have so good sims!


about the opinion of a driver: i repair computers and phones. i'm an experienced guy. so can you accept my opinion without any doubt about what is better between an iPhone and a Galaxy? no. why? cause you use those phones each day and you can have your opinion. what is the difference between me and the driver?


(LG, Nexus, Motorola)

poirqc
14-03-2016, 20:01
The Snes was the apogee of consoles! ;)

RimanDk
14-03-2016, 20:02
Doesn't quite add up. In the first para you talk about suspension of disbelief (ie believing you are a racing driver IRL is important to you). Then in the second para you say I don't really give a damn about being a race driver.

I can see it being one or the other but not both.

It adds up perfectly. I don't want to be a race car driver (professionally). I have no interest in being a Montoya or a Hamiltion, ok? That life is not for me. I want to drive cars at my own leisure. If anything, you could say my ambition would be to be Jay Leno =). I don't care for racing. I care for driving. I don't want to be anything else than what I am, I just want into the cars when I feel like it. I don't need other people (AI or human) around me to have a good time. In fact, I kind of prefer not to have them there. If you still don't understand what I'm trying to say after this explanation, I can't really help you any further. Either I can't explain it in a way that makes sense to you or you are totally stuck in your way of seeing things and won't accept someone looking at it differently.

Either way, I'm not interested in racing as such. Why am I playing Project CARS, which is a racing simulator? Because you can't have a racing simulator without having a solid physics simulation and, thankfully, pCars provides that in spades - the best in class, what I'm concerned. The physics are brilliant, the ffb sublime. The feeling of the car on the road is a dynamic, living thing, which makes all of the competition feel lifeless and sterile. I drive pCars for the driving pleasure it provides. Not for any other reasons. If another game provided a better experience, I would be playing that instead. Nobody comes even close, so this is where I am.

BigFred
14-03-2016, 20:28
It adds up perfectly. I don't want to be a race car driver (professionally). I have no interest in being a Montoya or a Hamiltion, ok? That life is not for me. I want to drive cars at my own leisure. If anything, you could say my ambition would be to be Jay Leno =). I don't care for racing. I care for driving. I don't want to be anything else than what I am, I just want into the cars when I feel like it. I don't need other people (AI or human) around me to have a good time. In fact, I kind of prefer not to have them there. If you still don't understand what I'm trying to say after this explanation, I can't really help you any further. Either I can't explain it in a way that makes sense to you or you are totally stuck in your way of seeing things and won't accept someone looking at it differently.

Either way, I'm not interested in racing as such. Why am I playing Project CARS, which is a racing simulator? Because you can't have a racing simulator without having a solid physics simulation and, thankfully, pCars provides that in spades - the best in class, what I'm concerned. The physics are brilliant, the ffb sublime. The feeling of the car on the road is a dynamic, living thing, which makes all of the competition feel lifeless and sterile. I drive pCars for the driving pleasure it provides. Not for any other reasons. If another game provided a better experience, I would be playing that instead. Nobody comes even close, so this is where I am.

I'd agree I am quite rigid in my thinking, although I'd like to think that I can be persuaded by logical argument.

I think it's interesting to discuss why we play games, or indeed why we think we play games. Or should I say use simulators. Given the rapid increase in game/simulator development, it probably has important consequences for where the human race is heading as a whole.

Whether game or simulator, the psychology of games players / simulator users is of significant interest to developers, but is something that most find difficult to get to grips with.

RimanDk
14-03-2016, 21:15
I'd agree I am quite rigid in my thinking, although I'd like to think that I can be persuaded by logical argument.

I think it's interesting to discuss why we play games, or indeed why we think we play games. Or should I say use simulators. Given the rapid increase in game/simulator development, it probably has important consequences for where the human race is heading as a whole.

Whether game or simulator, the psychology of games players / simulator users is of significant interest to developers, but is something that most find difficult to get to grips with.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly with that. Understanding your buyer base is a fundamental requirement for doing successful business. I think we are covered there. If SMS didn't understand their customer base, they wouldn't have put up with all the trouble that going console brings with it, just to mention one aspect of their strategy that has bearing on this argument.

The whole point of my original post was to shed some light on the fact that there are notions, which disagree with the broad-stroke generalization you made. Yeah, I can see where you are going with it, but I don't think everybody could or should be roped in under that broad headline. I have several friends, who, like me, are in it for the sheer pleasure of driving and not because they see this game as yet another ladder they can try to climb to assert their own competitiveness or as a means to believe themselves temporarily something they wish they were. It was merely a stab at offering a different point of view that reflects another, perfectly valid segment of the player population that keeps this game afloat with their wallets =).

flatspunout
14-03-2016, 22:14
So basically this driver said that Project CARS has more content and assists to appeal to a larger consumer audience, and the FFB feels better out of the box in AC? Sounds like a fair assessment to me, why all the twisted panties?

Shinzah
14-03-2016, 22:38
So basically this driver said that Project CARS has more content and assists to appeal to a larger consumer audience, and the FFB feels better out of the box in AC? Sounds like a fair assessment to me, why all the twisted panties?

Oversimplification doesn't do any favours.

I don't see any twisted panties here. Nobody came here and said OMG AC SUX ect ect. Nobody has said OMG PCARS IS BEST THAN EBER ALWAYS!!!!111111oneone, ect.

All that's mostly been done is some intriguing philosophical discussion and criticism of one underclass champion race driver's opinion on AC vs Pcars which has objectively more support from racing drivers, at least four of which are champions in high level motorsport.

Sankyo
15-03-2016, 13:02
So basically this driver said that Project CARS has more content and assists to appeal to a larger consumer audience, and the FFB feels better out of the box in AC? Sounds like a fair assessment to me, why all the twisted panties?
Nobody got excited, really, just putting in perspective the suggested importance of a champion race driver liking one race game over another.

bmanic
15-03-2016, 13:50
So he does want to become one for a little while. And yes, it is simple. If you don't want to feel like you are a racing driver, best not to play a racing sim !

All around the world people spend a load of money on hardware. On wheeels. On gear shifts. On software. On seats. On VR headsets. On sound systems. They don't spend it to feel less like a racing driver, they spend it to feel more like one, because ultimately they want to be one.

This just doesn't ring true to me.. I too am like Jussi and many others. I like the actual DRIVING itself more than racing. I'm not a super competitive person in real life either so that might explain my lack of interest in the actual racing (though I do like it quite a bit and I do enjoy some competition every once in a while). I just want to drive and challenge myself against the road and the car.

Cheesenium
15-03-2016, 13:59
If you don't want to feel like you are a racing driver, best not to play a racing sim !


I really do not understand this term.

Just because you have a racing game, why must one only race on that game? Why cant someone just take a car in that game for a spin around the track? So, whats a driving sim? And whats a racing sim? Why cant I race in a driving sim? If I want to race, wont I be driving a car so that I could race with someone else?

Some times I like to set multiclass then have some sort of race weekend to drive on a more relaxed paced with wide variety of car on track. That is definitely not racing as I am not engaging any attempts to race with anyone, especially when I am in a Megane when a Zonda is passing by.

AlanK
15-03-2016, 14:34
I like the driving aspect most of all myself. Too bad racing sims are the only place you can get decently simulated cars to drive, no-one has yet made the driving game I want (imagine essentially Test Drive Unlimited 2 but with pCARS physics, but without the shit story etc., just being able to drive with various cars, and possibly in a more interesting location like the European Alps or some Japanese mountainous areas).

EDIT: Seeing as Jaroslav liked this, we still sitting on those "pCARS World" plans? =)

Maybe they could fit laser scanning equipment to all those Google Street View camera cars. "I think I'll go for a drive around [insert location]". The mind boggles ...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-03-2016, 14:58
Maybe they could fit laser scanning equipment to all those Google Street View camera cars. "I think I'll go for a drive around [insert location]". The mind boggles ...Oh they could certainly fit those there. But for really good quality scans you want stationary measurements like how iRacing does it, and you'd need a LOT of storage. Even for a normal circuit you could be talking about hundreds, maybe thousands of gigabytes of raw point cloud data. =)

Invincible
15-03-2016, 15:03
Maybe they could fit laser scanning equipment to all those Google Street View camera cars. "I think I'll go for a drive around [insert location]". The mind boggles ...

Oh they could certainly fit those there. But for really good quality scans you want stationary measurements like how iRacing does it, and you'd need a LOT of storage. Even for a normal circuit you could be talking about hundreds, maybe thousands of gigabytes of raw point cloud data. =)

One day we'll have that. So you just can drive a virtual car everywhere you want. I just hope I will live long enough to see that day.

hkraft300
15-03-2016, 15:58
One day we'll have that. So you just can drive a virtual car everywhere you want. I just hope I will live long enough to see that day.

The Matrix.

balderz002
15-03-2016, 16:01
If Lewis Hamilton (Remember, he is the reigning champion of the words pinnacle of motorsport - some say) came out and said he thought PCars was better, would everyone believe him, shout him out for not knowing what he was on about, or cry bias because his brother had a hand in PCars dev?

Bealdor
15-03-2016, 16:05
If Lewis Hamilton (Remember, he is the reigning champion of the words pinnacle of motorsport - some say) came out and said he thought PCars was better, would everyone believe him, shout him out for not knowing what he was on about, or cry bias because his brother had a hand in PCars dev?

All of it, depending on who you're asking.

Sankyo
15-03-2016, 16:40
If Lewis Hamilton (Remember, he is the reigning champion of the words pinnacle of motorsport - some say) came out and said he thought PCars was better, would everyone believe him, shout him out for not knowing what he was on about, or cry bias because his brother had a hand in PCars dev?

I'd ask him to elaborate, and explain in detail what needs improving :)

konnos
15-03-2016, 16:49
nintendo vs master system
snes vs mega drive
gameboy vs gamegear
PS vs Nintendo 64
PS2 vs xbox
ps3 vs xbox 360
ps4 vs xbox one
apple vs windows
apple vs samsung
apple vs android
Pcars vs AC

it is the same ooold story. wars for poors. be happy you have so good sims!


about the opinion of a driver: i repair computers and phones. i'm an experienced guy. so can you accept my opinion without any doubt about what is better between an iPhone and a Galaxy? no. why? cause you use those phones each day and you can have your opinion. what is the difference between me and the driver?


(LG, Nexus, Motorola)

I will be happy to provide you with all the answers. MasterSystem, MegaDrive, Gameboy, PS, PS2, PS3, PS4, Apple, Apple, Android, PCars. Now the world can relax!

Jaroslav Turna
15-03-2016, 16:52
^^ that list is fundamentally missing:

C64 vs Atari XL/XE
Amiga vs AtariST
Amiga vs PC

havocc
15-03-2016, 17:00
Pes vs Fifa
Nvidia vs Amd
Intel vs Amd
F1 vs Wec
Beatles vs Rolling Stones

sbtm
15-03-2016, 17:04
britney spears vs christina aguilera... :cool:

cluck
15-03-2016, 17:23
^^ that list is fundamentally missing:

C64 vs Atari XL/XE
Amiga vs AtariST
Amiga vs PCAdd to those :-
TI 99/4A vs Vic20
BBC B vs Spectrum 48K

:)

Mad Al
15-03-2016, 17:37
and let's not forget that age old fav..

Martians Vs. Venusians

LogRoad
15-03-2016, 17:39
. . . and VW Beetle vs Saab 96 V4.

Et voila! Another car request list!

Charger
15-03-2016, 17:41
Add to those :-
TI 99/4A vs Vic20
BBC B vs Spectrum 48K

:)

Add these

Commodore Pet vs Acorn BBC Micro

DreamsKnight
15-03-2016, 17:42
Beatles vs Rolling Stones
Rolling stones, no war here.

poirqc
15-03-2016, 18:05
britney spears vs christina aguilera... :cool:

Common, i can't listen to neither of them, but if only watching is involved, christina aguilera hands down!

IJOJOI
15-03-2016, 18:05
Metallica vs Megadeth :rolleyes:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-03-2016, 18:11
Children of Bodom vs Dark Tranquility?
YUP vs. Every Other Finnish Band?
Maximum The Hormone vs. Listening To Music With Only One Genre Per Song?
Shiina Ringo/Tokyo Jihen vs. Everything Else In The World?

Bealdor
15-03-2016, 18:14
Jussi asking the important questions again. :highly_amused:

RimanDk
15-03-2016, 18:55
Well, that derailed quickly... =)

Konan
15-03-2016, 19:04
I haven't even clicked the link. I don't care what he has to say, it is one person's feeling about one game vs another. It is not going to change what I think of either game one iota.

Guilty on not clicking the link either for the same reason.....

DreamsKnight
15-03-2016, 19:47
Well, that derailed quickly... =)

my fault.

now i'll go IT.

sunday i did a 2hr race with driver swap together with friends. z4@imola.

yesterday, i tried again AC. with a lot of work and a lot of reading forums, my skills have increased in the last 2/3 months. (Read: my girlfriend left me)

the test was easy: z4@imola.

honestly it seems to me to play forza.


disclaimer: the test was fast, so I take advantage of the opportunity to change my minds in the future.

poirqc
15-03-2016, 20:45
Metallica AND Megadeth :rolleyes:

There. Fixed it for ya. :D

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-03-2016, 02:31
There. Fixed it for ya. :DHeresy, no-one in the world is capable of loving both of those bands at the same time. That's tantamount to thinking that black and white are the exact same thing.

E_Luckow
16-03-2016, 02:41
Pffff. Led Zeppelin, above all of them.

poirqc
16-03-2016, 03:08
Heresy, no-one in the world is capable of loving both of those bands at the same time. That's tantamount to thinking that black and white are the exact same thing.

I never said both bands are the same! ;) I said, make love, not war! The more you enjoy, the better it gets! :D

I mean, i don't know vhit about music. Does it have a guitar?:yes: Does it include a solo like it used to?:yes: I'm sold. :)

Konan
16-03-2016, 06:27
Pffff. Led Zeppelin, above all of them.

Deep Purple........

Invincible
16-03-2016, 06:43
Pffff. Led Zeppelin, above all of them.


Deep Purple........

You lot know nothing. Pink Floyd of course.

Konan
16-03-2016, 06:49
You lot know nothing. Pink Floyd of course.

That would have been my second choice....

IJOJOI
16-03-2016, 07:49
Well I'll stay with Motörhead guys \m/

But as with anything else, enjoy all.

Sankyo
16-03-2016, 09:56
Back Street Boys vs Take That


Wait, that's not going to be interpreted well for me...

Bealdor
16-03-2016, 10:07
Back Street Boys vs Take That


Wait, that's not going to be interpreted well for me...

NSYNC, hands down...

Invincible
16-03-2016, 10:08
NSYNC, hands down...

You got Caught in the act!

See what I did there ;)

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-03-2016, 11:58
This thread has been pants up 'til now, how can you not include the best 'Vs' ever?

You can thank me later...

229946

cluck
16-03-2016, 12:08
I see your King Kong vs Godzilla and raise you

229947

and

229948

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-03-2016, 12:15
I see your King Kong vs Godzilla and raise you

229947

and

229948

By 'raise' I can only assume you mean cast down a bottomless pit?

DreamsKnight
16-03-2016, 12:32
Pffff. Led Zeppelin, above all of them.

this.

the good thing is you all (except one) listen to good music.

Silraed
16-03-2016, 13:19
Well this thread has become... interesting.

Gassolini
16-03-2016, 14:00
the good thing is you all (except one) listen to good music.
Which is why we must now raise the fundamental issues, like Guitars vs Synths :p

DreamsKnight
16-03-2016, 14:51
Which is why we must now raise the fundamental issues, like Guitars vs Synths :p

i love 80s, so for me synths are only another beautiful instrument. queen are a perfect example to understand how to use them. :P

Jaroslav Turna
16-03-2016, 15:07
Classical piano is The King of all musical instruments! (Electric guitar is next)

balderz002
16-03-2016, 15:40
Classical piano is The King of all musical instruments! (Electric guitar is next)

I dunno, a hand placed strategically in a sweaty arm pit making fart noises is pretty special............

M4MKey
16-03-2016, 16:02
Let's be honest a second here... I have lot of things to be mad about pCARS...

But this interview was completely biased ... Even the "questions asked to the "driver"" were like "Ac is just better, yes ?"... Come on.. Objectivity. This driver is telling us that AC has more GT3 than in pCARS ? Really ?
He's telling us that the game is too forgiving compared to reality, maybe that's assists. Maybe that's just becasue of the SETUP ? Something that is almost non-existant in AC...

I really would love to like AC because it has a great FFB. But, lack of content, lack of setup, lack of optimization ( it runs worse than pCARS ? On my 980 ), DLC too expensive, only dedicated servers, the list is long...

How a real driver would prefer a game where you don't have any telemetry available and barely any input on the setup of your car ?...


PS : Please notice how I'm not even trying to debate the "physics" side of things...

Shinzah
16-03-2016, 16:18
Classical piano is The King of all musical instruments! (Electric guitar is next)

Yes but,lutes, stand up bass and electric bass are in this royal family too right? ;-;

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-03-2016, 16:25
I dunno, a hand placed strategically in a sweaty arm pit making fart noises is pretty special............

The farty armpit and the tin bucket being smacked with a sockful of gravel being two instuments far preferable to the bagpipes...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-03-2016, 16:30
Classical piano is The King of all musical instruments! (Electric guitar is next)Bah, no instrument that's incapable of bending notes (without special versions of said instruments) can ever be the king.

Shinzah
16-03-2016, 16:36
Bah, no instrument that's incapable of bending notes (without special versions of said instruments) can ever be the king.

Not even if it has Chopin? ;-;

Konan
16-03-2016, 16:39
Not even if it has Chopin? ;-;


What's that? Some kind of coleslaw? :cool:

flatspunout
16-03-2016, 16:45
Well this thread has become... interesting.

More like...blatantly and intentionally derailed.

Shinzah
16-03-2016, 16:47
What's that? Some kind of coleslaw? :cool:

O_O;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hyAOYMUVDs

Jaroslav Turna
16-03-2016, 17:18
Anyone ever tried to do have ... (three letter word starting with S) on a piano?
Now try that on some other instrument :P
I still stand by my word ... piano is The King.

btw. what was the original thread topic? Can't remember :D

Konan
16-03-2016, 17:25
Anyone ever tried to do have ... (three letter word starting with S) on a piano?
Now try that on some other instrument :P
I still stand by my word ... piano is The King.

btw. what was the original thread topic? Can't remember :D

Which instrument do you like most...so you're right on topic...:cool:

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-03-2016, 17:35
Anyone ever tried to do have ... (three letter word starting with S) on a piano?
Now try that on some other instrument :P
I still stand by my word ... piano is The King.

btw. what was the original thread topic? Can't remember :D

I have a 'friend' who swears that having a 'wee bit' on the bagpipes is particularly pleasurable.

Oh wait, no.... that was actually with the bagpipes.

Sorry.

Shinzah
16-03-2016, 17:41
I have a 'friend' who swears that having a 'wee bit' on the bagpipes is particularly pleasurable.

Oh wait, no.... that was actually with the bagpipes.

Sorry.

One time at Scottish camp......

Otherworld
16-03-2016, 17:55
Let's be honest a second here... I have lot of things to be mad about pCARS...

But this interview was completely biased ... Even the "questions asked to the "driver"" were like "Ac is just better, yes ?"... Come on.. Objectivity. This driver is telling us that AC has more GT3 than in pCARS ? Really ?
He's telling us that the game is too forgiving compared to reality, maybe that's assists. Maybe that's just becasue of the SETUP ? Something that is almost non-existant in AC...

I really would love to like AC because it has a great FFB. But, lack of content, lack of setup, lack of optimization ( it runs worse than pCARS ? On my 980 ), DLC too expensive, only dedicated servers, the list is long...

How a real driver would prefer a game where you don't have any telemetry available and barely any input on the setup of your car ?...


PS : Please notice how I'm not even trying to debate the "physics" side of things...

Well to be fair the concluding point of the interview is that he prefers AC because the FFB is better.

Sankyo
16-03-2016, 18:23
Well to be fair the concluding point of the interview is that he prefers AC because in his opinion the FFB is better.
FTFY ;)

DreamsKnight
16-03-2016, 18:50
btw. what was the original thread topic? Can't remember :D

Patch 10. When? What?

Konan
16-03-2016, 18:55
Deleted

nono782
16-03-2016, 19:46
Well to be fair the concluding point of the interview is that he prefers AC because the FFB is better.

Not exactly.
He prefers the out of the box fbb in AC but he did not say it was bad in Pcars (just it needed some set up)
But he prefers AC because the cars are less forgiving, in his opinion of course.
Thing I don't understand since I find the Pcars' cars less forgiving.
At least with no aids at all.
If he tried both games with factory aids on, I could agree with him since Pcars ABS, TC and ESC are way too powerful.

Sum Dixon-Ear
16-03-2016, 20:02
... I find the Pcars' cars less forgiving...

I smashed the crap out of my Zakspeed Capri earlier today, complete write-off... it forgave me.

bporion
16-03-2016, 20:25
FFB is better in AC . And please don't call it canned or whatever its just better in my humble opinion off course .

sbtm
16-03-2016, 20:29
better for a game.. but not more realistic.. :-P

Leper Messiah
16-03-2016, 20:30
Heresy, no-one in the world is capable of loving both of those bands at the same time. That's tantamount to thinking that black and white are the exact same thing.

I love 'em both! ;)

Metallica pre 1991 are better, Megadeth better post 1991.

bporion
16-03-2016, 20:31
better for a game.. but not more realistic.. :-P
Pcars is a game . Its not realistic to be going 170 milles an hour on a straight and the wheel has no feel to it .

Leper Messiah
16-03-2016, 20:34
Pcars is a game . Its not realistic to be going 170 milles an hour on a straight and the wheel has no feel to it .

Personally I don't feel "bumps" via my wheel in my real car, I feel them through me arse. So feeling bumps in a wheel via FFB is incorrect IMO.

beetes_juice
16-03-2016, 20:34
Gonna be that guy :o

Have you been 170 mph down a straight to know what its supposed to feel like?

cluck
16-03-2016, 20:36
Gonna be that guy :o

Have you been 170 mph down a straight to know what its supposed to feel like?I have :)

Well, 165mph but that's pretty close. And no, that wasn't in Germany. On a race track, fastest I've driven is just over 140mph indicated, down hangar straight at Silverstone, in my old 200SX. Both times, the car was quite sedate and, dare I say it, boring (especially at Silverstone, where the track feels about a mile wide).

sbtm
16-03-2016, 20:37
i don't know why you have no feel in the wheel. my wheel is trembling and shaking in this situation but depends on the car and track. my FFB setting is pretty much vanilla. Just tweaked the power that it doesn't clip.

bporion
16-03-2016, 20:38
Gonna be that guy :o

Have you been 170 mph down a straight to know what its supposed to feel like?
I feel bumps every day driving home from work thru my steering wheel going about 120 KPH , I can't imagine going 170 milles an hour and feeling nothing . Just look at any onboard vid of any race car and tell me what the wheel is doing .

sbtm
16-03-2016, 20:39
Personally I don't feel "bumps" via my wheel in my real car, I feel them through me arse. So feeling bumps in a wheel via FFB is incorrect IMO.
^^ this exactly. in a race car it may be different with more shaking with the wheel, but when I drive the 220km/h in my car (sry no fancy 400PS car available) from time to time I don't feel really much trough the wheel, even if the autobahn is a bit bumpy.

sbtm
16-03-2016, 20:42
maybe many people prefer the canned effects from assetto corsa because they compensate the lack of the booty-meter in a real car, and so they still know what the car is doing on the virtual road.

Shinzah
16-03-2016, 21:59
I feel bumps every day driving home from work thru my steering wheel going about 120 KPH , I can't imagine going 170 milles an hour and feeling nothing . Just look at any onboard vid of any race car and tell me what the wheel is doing .

A lot of the time, it's more what the forces on the body are doing vs what the wheel is doing to the arms. You should be able to feel through the wheel of course (barring driving something hugemassive with tons of dampening) but being in a car at speed is an incredibly kinetic environment. So it's not easy to tell if the drivers arms are moving because he's holding onto the wheel and that's what's moving them, or because the physical energy is moving through his body and he's the one moving the wheel.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-03-2016, 22:09
I have driven a non-powersteer car on a road with bad enough bumps that eventually three of the dampers on the car broke. I could have kept the wheel straight with a finger or two, it wasn't really doing much. The whole car was getting really damn beat up though. I guess though that I should seek a situation where a bump hits only one wheel to make sure.

bporion
16-03-2016, 22:22
Well anyway I still like the FFB better in AC and RE3 now that I think about it but everybody as a right to their opinions its too bad you guys are all wrong !! :-):p

Dakpilot
16-03-2016, 22:23
Re the original post..

the 'article' is classified as an Advertisement by the site it is posted on

http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/publicit%C3%A9

see disclaimer at bottom of page...publicité

13 pages discussing ...an advert? ...:D

interesting nonetheless :cool:

Cheers Dakpilot

sbtm
16-03-2016, 22:32
Well anyway I still like the FFB better in AC and RE3 now that I think about it but everybody as a right to their opinions its too bad you guys are all wrong !! :-):p

maybe you have a tire imbalance on your car, your car mechanic or tire guy should be able to get it back in balance then it stops shaking at certain speeds. happens to me from time to time.

Mad LL
16-03-2016, 22:33
The "Advertising" mention is related to the banner just above the dark page footer. Disable your ad blocker to check this out.

bporion
16-03-2016, 22:41
maybe you have a tire imbalance on your car, your car mechanic or tire guy should be able to get it back in balance then it stops shaking at certain speeds. happens to me from time to time.
Its fine , it doesn't shake or I would go get it looked at but I can feel the road and in the game its like the car is not in contact whit the road . As an example if I miss a quick turn and go on the grass there is barely any input in the wheel . This is only in Pcars all my other games are fine but all the other games are mutch simpler to adjust and most of the time if I change something in the FFB for other games its too turn settings down .

Dakpilot
16-03-2016, 22:50
The "Advertising" mention is related to the banner just above the dark page footer. Disable your ad blocker to check this out.

I use no ad blocker, in multiple browsers it just says it is an Ad

Cheers Dakpilot

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-03-2016, 22:56
Well anyway I still like the FFB better in AC and RE3 now that I think about it but everybody as a right to their opinions its too bad you guys are all wrong !! :-):pAnd conversely I think that while it's a decent enough FFB system that's better than the horrible ISI FFB that plagued rFactor and Race games, it's mostly just "meh" and pretty dead, lifeless and uninformative. It's not that bad for normal lapping but for sliding it's very meh (and before the more recent updates actively horrible and the most frustrating thing I've had in a racing sim in decades). It still has a lot of issues with where the FFB wants to center the wheel and transitioning from one direction to another, but it's infinitely better than it used to be. Mostly though, for me, it's just uninspiring and boring in feel, especially in the cars that I'd otherwise like to drive the most.

A well tuned RealFeel setup and pCARS FFB are the best FFB systems I've come across in terms of actually telling me what the car is doing, what the tyres are doing, and transmitting a feel of the rubber connecting the car to the road (I still remember that time during development when I noticed that they'd increased the self-damping rate of the tyres in a specific car without mentioning it in the notes, just from the FFB feel). Admittedly it does take quite a bit of tuning to get there though. I wouldn't quite call the default FFB "catastrophic" but it's not good at all for me. Nothing is ever perfect, but it's really damn good.

EDIT: But like you say, to each their own. =)

poirqc
16-03-2016, 23:15
And conversely I think that while it's a decent enough FFB system that's better than the horrible ISI FFB that plagued rFactor and Race games, it's mostly just "meh" and pretty dead, lifeless and uninformative. It's not that bad for normal lapping but for sliding it's very meh (and before the more recent updates actively horrible and the most frustrating thing I've had in a racing sim in decades). It still has a lot of issues with where the FFB wants to center the wheel and transitioning from one direction to another, but it's infinitely better than it used to be. Mostly though, for me, it's just uninspiring and boring in feel, especially in the cars that I'd otherwise like to drive the most.

A well tuned RealFeel setup and pCARS FFB are the best FFB systems I've come across in terms of actually telling me what the car is doing, what the tyres are doing, and transmitting a feel of the rubber connecting the car to the road (I still remember that time during development when I noticed that they'd increased the self-damping rate of the tyres in a specific car without mentioning it in the notes, just from the FFB feel). Admittedly it does take quite a bit of tuning to get there though. I wouldn't quite call the default FFB "catastrophic" but it's not good at all for me. Nothing is ever perfect, but it's really damn good.

Now that i've somewhat understood the FFB system in pCars, there's something worst.

I can't for the life of me, decice if i want to balance with, or without SoP in mind. There's so many valid possibilities that i just can't decide for myself!

DreamsKnight
17-03-2016, 01:32
Pcars is a game . Its not realistic to be going 170 milles an hour on a straight and the wheel has no feel to it .

-try to low the Relative Adjust Bleed to something like 0.30 / 0.40. you'll fell bumps. the wheel will be lighter, but this is easy to adjust with gain(s)
-remove the deadzone.

then you can work with tire force, camber when possible (camber works for FFB and not for the car itself)

Shinzah
17-03-2016, 02:15
(camber works for FFB and not for the car itself)

I...I thought this was fixed. Months ago.

Krus Control
17-03-2016, 02:25
Now that i've somewhat understood the FFB system in pCars, there's something worst.

I can't for the life of me, decice if i want to balance with, or without SoP in mind. There's so many valid possibilities that i just can't decide for myself!

Here's my reasoning for not using SoP: When your wheels leave the ground or just release enough of the load on a crest you won't feel it if you're relying on SoP. On tracks like Bannochbrae a no SoP mix should produce a much more even and useful feel. But on a track like Silverstone or Brno it doesn't make a very big difference.

Krus Control
17-03-2016, 02:26
I...I thought this was fixed. Months ago.

It is fixed. Camber most definitely affects the car front and rear.

F1_Racer68
17-03-2016, 03:29
Camber worked properly all along a in regards to the handling of the cars.

The exploit (issue) with Camber was that using 0 camber gave more straight line speed since you had better acceleration as well as braking, but did not suffer the increased friction drag of having the full tire width in contact on the straights. This in turn made for an overall faster lap time in the past. It was fixed with patch 7.0.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42885-Project-CARS-PC-Patch-7-0-Release-Notes&p=1188288&viewfull=1#post1188288


Project CARS – PC Patch 7.0 – Release Notes


Physics & Tyres
• Neutralized the top speed advantage of running zero camber on many tires.

DreamsKnight
17-03-2016, 09:51
I...I thought this was fixed. Months ago.


It is fixed. Camber most definitely affects the car front and rear.


Camber worked properly all along a in regards to the handling of the cars.

The exploit (issue) with Camber was that using 0 camber gave more straight line speed since you had better acceleration as well as braking, but did not suffer the increased friction drag of having the full tire width in contact on the straights. This in turn made for an overall faster lap time in the past. It was fixed with patch 7.0.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42885-Project-CARS-PC-Patch-7-0-Release-Notes&p=1188288&viewfull=1#post1188288

i never read the "camber at 0/straight line speed" related to what i read in a guide camber "affect only FFB". :O :O

in each case, that is the last thing i suggested. :D

mister dog
17-03-2016, 19:15
I've switched to AC these past months and haven't touched PCARS anymore. Thing is the default FFB is a lot easier to adjust and get right in AC, which in turn will make it a lot easier for everybody to get it to feel right on their particular wheels. Frankly i got tired of fiddling around with the 1000 sliders PCARS has instead of actually playing the game. You get to a point where you have it feeling ok, but there's always that thought in the back of your mind that on half of the sliders you didn't really know what you were adjusting, thus perfect FFB is an eternal utopia.

Also base car setups are better in AC IMO, no need to fiddle around there much neither as all cars handle and respond like you'd expect them to out of the box, whilst in PCARS a lot of them need work. Couple that with more individual sounds for each car and to me if brings a more satisfying driving experience at the moment.

PCARS is better on eye candy though, it really is a gorgeous experience graphically. Anyway just my 2 cents i enjoyed playing PCARS last year and in the end personal preferences prevail :)

Grunotti
17-03-2016, 19:26
I've switched to AC these past months and haven't touched PCARS anymore. Thing is the default FFB is a lot easier to adjust and get right in AC, which in turn will make it a lot easier for everybody to get it to feel right on their particular wheels. Frankly i got tired of fiddling around with the 1000 sliders PCARS has instead of actually playing the game. You get to a point where you have it feeling ok, but there's always that thought in the back of your mind that on half of the sliders you didn't really know what you were adjusting, thus perfect FFB is an eternal utopia.

Also base car setups are better in AC IMO, no need to fiddle around there much neither as all cars handle and respond like you'd expect them to out of the box, whilst in PCARS a lot of them need work. Couple that with more individual sounds for each car and to me if brings a more satisfying driving experience at the moment.

PCARS is better on eye candy though, it really is a gorgeous experience graphically. Anyway just my 2 cents i enjoyed playing PCARS last year and in the end personal preferences prevail :)

I believe its all personal but i have to say this....
AC is great but i misses the weather and pit options
PCARS is great but i misses a custom championship mode and the options to change the driver/team names and to choose the opponents cars.
The custom championship mod in AC is the reason im playing that game now more often .

So lets see what the future brings.

The game who got as first all these options complete is the game i gonna play for the rest of my life .

mister dog
17-03-2016, 19:29
The game who got as first all these options complete is the game i gonna play for the rest of my life .
Until the next best thing arrives :p

bporion
17-03-2016, 20:12
-try to low the Relative Adjust Bleed to something like 0.30 / 0.40. you'll fell bumps. the wheel will be lighter, but this is easy to adjust with gain(s)
-remove the deadzone.


then you can work with tire force, camber when possible (camber works for FFB and not for the car itself)

I will give it a try , thanks .

morpwr
17-03-2016, 21:23
-try to low the Relative Adjust Bleed to something like 0.30 / 0.40. you'll fell bumps. the wheel will be lighter, but this is easy to adjust with gain(s)
-remove the deadzone.

then you can work with tire force, camber when possible (camber works for FFB and not for the car itself)

I think you mean arm angle not camber.

bmanic
17-03-2016, 21:54
Pcars is a game . Its not realistic to be going 170 milles an hour on a straight and the wheel has no feel to it .

.. this only proves you have what I'd consider "bad" FFB settings. Going 170mph down a straight on a bumpy track I have TONS of FFB in my wheel (thrustmaster 458 TX). What's even better is that I have absolutely full control over how much I want of those tiny details.

And what was written above is also valid.. if you do 170mph in a modern street car that can do it, then you would not feel a thing in the real steering wheel. It should be rock solid and smooth due to advanced suspension and various other gadgets (electronic steering etc). So bumpy road feel in a road car is actually not how a real wheel feels, unless it's a really big bump and you hit it sort of sideways (that will twist a real steering wheel too).

So yeah, if more realistic behavior makes pCars only "a game" compared to AC then.. ok. You're entitled to your opinion of course.

Gassolini
18-03-2016, 01:52
^ It's funny how the "hardcore" sim community were demanding pure physics based FFB, and when they got it, they started complaining about the lack of canned FFB :p

Shinzah
18-03-2016, 04:08
^ It's funny how the "hardcore" sim community were demanding pure physics based FFB, and when they got it, they started complaining about the lack of canned FFB :p

It's almost like some people are blinded by a cultlike mentality.

But not us. We're a totally sane community, right guys? ^^;

Silraed
18-03-2016, 04:40
But not us. We're a totally sane community, right guys? ^^;

For the most part. Maybe. Not really no.

Shinzah
18-03-2016, 05:14
For the most part. Maybe. Not really no.

Oh. I have a nice cool refreshment for you...

http://www.wikihow.com/images/9/95/Kool-aid-Intro.jpg

Please...enjoy it...

Invincible
18-03-2016, 07:29
It's almost like some people are blinded by a cultlike mentality.

But not us. We're a totally sane community, right guys? ^^;

As sane as a beheaded clu... chicken. AmIright?!

balderz002
18-03-2016, 08:36
As sane as a beheaded clu... chicken. AmIright?!

Your not talking about Mike the headless chicken are you Invincible?!?! He was a world wide celebrity. Tragic when he died..........

Invincible
18-03-2016, 09:00
Your not talking about Mike the headless chicken are you Invincible?!?! He was a world wide celebrity. Tragic when he died..........

No I did not... didn't even know... oh my god! That poor thing!! I don't even... why?! How?!

Riccardo De Rosa
18-03-2016, 09:02
my advice? try them all and in the end use what you like best.

cluck
18-03-2016, 09:10
my advice? try them all and in the end use what you like best.Indeed :)

konnos
18-03-2016, 09:42
my advice? try them all and in the end use what you like best.

So, it's like sex?

DreamsKnight
18-03-2016, 10:31
I think you mean arm angle not camber.

this story is long now.

i checked, and i mean CASTER (in english).

Kitt
18-03-2016, 10:37
I've switched to AC these past months and haven't touched PCARS anymore. Thing is the default FFB is a lot easier to adjust and get right in AC, which in turn will make it a lot easier for everybody to get it to feel right on their particular wheels. Frankly i got tired of fiddling around with the 1000 sliders PCARS has instead of actually playing the game. You get to a point where you have it feeling ok, but there's always that thought in the back of your mind that on half of the sliders you didn't really know what you were adjusting, thus perfect FFB is an eternal utopia.

Also base car setups are better in AC IMO, no need to fiddle around there much neither as all cars handle and respond like you'd expect them to out of the box, whilst in PCARS a lot of them need work. Couple that with more individual sounds for each car and to me if brings a more satisfying driving experience at the moment.

PCARS is better on eye candy though, it really is a gorgeous experience graphically. Anyway just my 2 cents i enjoyed playing PCARS last year and in the end personal preferences prevail :)
+1 now I've got a wheel I gave AC another go and for me the driving feels much better in AC and its so much easier to set up FFB.

pigsy
18-03-2016, 11:23
I've switched to AC these past months and haven't touched PCARS anymore. Thing is the default FFB is a lot easier to adjust and get right in AC, which in turn will make it a lot easier for everybody to get it to feel right on their particular wheels. Frankly i got tired of fiddling around with the 1000 sliders PCARS has instead of actually playing the game. You get to a point where you have it feeling ok, but there's always that thought in the back of your mind that on half of the sliders you didn't really know what you were adjusting, thus perfect FFB is an eternal utopia.

Also base car setups are better in AC IMO, no need to fiddle around there much neither as all cars handle and respond like you'd expect them to out of the box, whilst in PCARS a lot of them need work. Couple that with more individual sounds for each car and to me if brings a more satisfying driving experience at the moment.

PCARS is better on eye candy though, it really is a gorgeous experience graphically. Anyway just my 2 cents i enjoyed playing PCARS last year and in the end personal preferences prevail :)

Now that AC AI is much better and I'm able to compete in a custom championship, AC is now my goto game.

Another significant thing is that AC feels much more like a real track day experience. I've done some track days recently and I find the AC AI opponents gradually get up to speed. Whereas Pcars AI are unrealistically fast straight out of the pits. Also some of the AI cornering speeds and lines seem very artificial.
Other areas where AC seem much better is the individual car sounds and in particular the external sound treatment, reverb, dopler effect, much more immersive imo. Finally the UI and replay system is much more polished in AC. Quite an achievement for a 10 man strong team.

nono782
18-03-2016, 11:32
Both games are great and complementary.
That's a good thing they have their own ffb, tracks and cars.

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 11:47
I've switched to AC these past months and haven't touched PCARS anymore. Thing is the default FFB is a lot easier to adjust and get right in AC, which in turn will make it a lot easier for everybody to get it to feel right on their particular wheels. Frankly i got tired of fiddling around with the 1000 sliders PCARS has instead of actually playing the game. You get to a point where you have it feeling ok, but there's always that thought in the back of your mind that on half of the sliders you didn't really know what you were adjusting, thus perfect FFB is an eternal utopia.

Also base car setups are better in AC IMO, no need to fiddle around there much neither as all cars handle and respond like you'd expect them to out of the box, whilst in PCARS a lot of them need work. Couple that with more individual sounds for each car and to me if brings a more satisfying driving experience at the moment.

PCARS is better on eye candy though, it really is a gorgeous experience graphically. Anyway just my 2 cents i enjoyed playing PCARS last year and in the end personal preferences prevail :)

gotta ask this question how exactly do you know pCARS has the setups wrong and AC has them right? Have you driven the cars in reality?

It's comes down to objective and subjective, if you prefer one game over another then fair enough, but without the real world experience no-one is in ANY position to state if any one game is more realistic than another (I realise you don't say that Mr Dog, but many do).

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 11:50
As a follow up to my post saying I don't feel bumps in my wheel......what effect would a race suspension have vs road suspension. my current drive is a VW Golf TDI mk 6, I used to drive an MGzr with factory fitted lowered, stiffer suspension and larger wheels....the MG handled like a dream, the Golf wallows around! Softer suspension soaks up the bumps more. Would stiffer suspension transfer the bumps to the arse stronger OR be felt more in the wheel?

F1_Racer68
18-03-2016, 12:54
It depends on how you hit the bump. In most cases you will feel it in your arse more than in the wheel. The only time you would really feel it in the wheel is if the hit caused the front wheels to deflect sideways. Normal up and down suspension hits are mainly felt through the chassis not the steering rack.

The main problem is that as long time sim racers we are so used to sims giving us the sensation through the wheel because that is the only form of tactile feedback we have available. That doesn't mean it is correct or accurate.

Suspension hits such as rumble strips, bumps, etc should really only be felt via buttkickers. The wheel should only feel the weight of side loads when cornering and some movement from wheel deflection during cornering.

If you ever pay really close attention in your real world road car you will begin to notice that 90% of the time any bumps you feel in the wheel you are actually feeling in your arse as well. What you are feeling in the wheel is mostly just vibration transmitted through the chassis into the steering column and not movement of the steering rack.

I hope that made sense.....

Gassolini
18-03-2016, 13:12
I'll pitch in too, to help dispel the myth of the always wiggling steering wheel. In my experience, going at speed in a real car (160mph'ish) on a normal road does not induce rotational forces in the steering wheel unless you actually turn the wheel or there's camber/tramlining/potholes. You can let go of the wheel and it'll stay unmoving and centered. If there was any kind of steering wobble, that would be a sign of impeding catastrophe; I'd be scared shitless and hand in the car for repair or scrapping. However, the floor/pedals, seat and steering wheel are all delivering different modes of vibration to different parts of your body, including a bit of body movement as the road undulates. I note that some drivers in Youtube videos like to saw at the wheel when going fast, leading some people to believe that the wheel is about to be torn out of their hands at all times...

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 13:30
It depends on how you hit the bump. In most cases you will feel it in your arse more than in the wheel. The only time you would really feel it in the wheel is if the hit caused the front wheels to deflect sideways. Normal up and down suspension hits are mainly felt through the chassis not the steering rack.

The main problem is that as long time sim racers we are so used to sims giving us the sensation through the wheel because that is the only form of tactile feedback we have available. That doesn't mean it is correct or accurate.

Suspension hits such as rumble strips, bumps, etc should really only be felt via buttkickers. The wheel should only feel the weight of side loads when cornering and some movement from wheel deflection during cornering.

If you ever pay really close attention in your real world road car you will begin to notice that 90% of the time any bumps you feel in the wheel you are actually feeling in your arse as well. What you are feeling in the wheel is mostly just vibration transmitted through the chassis into the steering column and not movement of the steering rack.

I hope that made sense.....


I'll pitch in too, to help dispel the myth of the always wiggling steering wheel. In my experience, going at speed in a real car (160mph'ish) on a normal road does not induce rotational forces in the steering wheel unless you actually turn the wheel or there's camber/tramlining/potholes. You can let go of the wheel and it'll stay unmoving and centered. If there was any kind of steering wobble, that would be a sign of impeding catastrophe; I'd be scared shitless and hand in the car for repair or scrapping. However, the floor/pedals, seat and steering wheel are all delivering different modes of vibration to different parts of your body, including a bit of body movement as the road undulates. I note that some drivers in Youtube videos like to saw at the wheel when going fast, leading some people to believe that the wheel is about to be torn out of their hands at all times...

Yeah that's what I thought, but I wanted it clarified because of the difference between race spec (stiff) suspension and road (soft) suspension. I've always thought that most ffb in the past has been faked to fill in the gaps of what we feel the car is doing and what surface it is going over. I would definitely like to hear what Jussi has to say (and to learn something as I normally do with his posts!).

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 13:36
Both games are great and complementary.
That's a good thing they have their own ffb, tracks and cars.

got to agree with this as well, I also have RF2, R3E and GSCE/AMS. ALL are ace in their own ways and ALL have issues, none are perfect. But whatever I feel like doing I can fire up the game that most closely matches my desires (which is currently Moto GP 15! Bikes Rule! ;) )

FR-Alan
18-03-2016, 13:53
+ 1 for F1-Racer68
FFB is there to simulate the horizontal friction between the road and the tires. It could simulate too some relief of the road when it is sufficient to make a wheel change his direction.
Anyway, when running straight, the wheel do not have reasons to feedback some force except if it left the surface of the road and come back to it with a light angle and friction make the wheel to go back straight. Could be a hole or an obstacle who force the wheel to go with a new angle.
For forces coming from bumpers, etc..., it is vertical moves. So in my mind, nothing can simulate it in a wheel except maybe vibrations.
In summary, a FFB strictly cannot feedback vertical moves (if i know well how a FFB work), but it is also absurd to say that a driver have no feelings of the road even on the wheel even in straight lines.

havocc
18-03-2016, 16:32
got to agree with this as well, I also have RF2, R3E and GSCE/AMS. ALL are ace in their own ways and ALL have issues, none are perfect. But whatever I feel like doing I can fire up the game that most closely matches my desires (which is currently Moto GP 15! Bikes Rule! ;) )

Rf2 ffb is incredible, you can really "feel the tyre" with your wheel

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 16:51
Rf2 ffb is incredible, you can really "feel the tyre" with your wheel

Yup I agree, it's very good, pCARS ffb is also very good IMO. but overall I find the game too slippery and doesn't have all that much content (at least not that I'm interested in). Ai is excellent and I can get a top experience with the right car/track combo.

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 16:55
In fact talking of realism: The thing I miss the most with regards to real driving is lateral and longitudinal forces, ESPECIALLY the latter, in a real car you can "feel" speed change, even if it's just a subtle lift of the throttle, hard braking throws you forward and hard acceleration throws you back, no amount of ffb can simulate those feelings. Games put in some lateral ffb movement but it's not what I really feel when cornering!


but it is also absurd to say that a driver have no feelings of the road even on the wheel even in straight lines.

It's not absurd at all, I feel very little through my steering wheel, it's all through the chassis (unless I clout something massive and I do my best to avoid that!).

F1_Racer68
18-03-2016, 17:34
In fact talking of realism: The thing I miss the most with regards to real driving is lateral and longitudinal forces, ESPECIALLY the latter, in a real car you can "feel" speed change, even if it's just a subtle lift of the throttle, hard braking throws you forward and hard acceleration throws you back, no amount of ffb can simulate those feelings. Games put in some lateral ffb movement but it's not what I really feel when cornering!

It's not possible for just a steering wheel based FFB, but it is possible..... just not on MY budget.... LOL. That's what full motion rigs are for ;)

Leper Messiah
18-03-2016, 18:27
It's not possible for just a steering wheel based FFB, but it is possible..... just not on MY budget.... LOL. That's what full motion rigs are for ;)

that's what dreams are for! :)

Gassolini
18-03-2016, 19:16
I'm just back from a drive. Since we are discussing FFB, I thought I'd do some research. I drove one way on the highway, and the other on rough backroads. On the highway, there was nothing as expected, apart from vibrations and some slight loading due to camber a couple of places. The vibrations were normal to the plane of the steering wheel, i.e. not rotational. The car has a Momo wheel with 3 steel spokes, which is a bit resonant by nature, much more so than the original wheel which was more damped in comparison. On the backroads, also as expected, there were the vibrations of course, and some slight movement when the surface was very uneven and different for the right and left wheels - nothing that couldn't be held in check with two fingers @ 140km/h. One interesting observation was that as I was going over some undulations, as in bumps with a frequency of 1-2 Hz, the wheel did wiggle a tiny bit. However, when I let go of it, the movement stopped. Turns out it was the undulations in the road making my body and arms move and give unintentional steering input.

To fill in the "gaps" in the sim FFB, I want a buttkicker and a rim with a vibration motor [1] :)


[1] That sounds a bit wrong...

DreamsKnight
18-03-2016, 19:33
To fill in the "gaps" in the sim FFB, I want a buttkicker and a rim with a vibration motor [1] :)


[1] That sounds a bit wrong...

usb connection for the arse is the best solution.

beside this if you fell all of this vibration through the wheel, or your car is old or consider a visit to the tire repairer to check balancing of tyres. :D :P

bporion
18-03-2016, 22:17
Just to be clear about what I was saying I never said I wanted more FFB on the wheel while driving in a straight line at hight speed , I just want more rumble or more vibration whit the wheel that's all .

RaceNut
19-03-2016, 04:12
Okay, I'll add my bit to the conversation.

Regarding FFB: I've gotten to the point where I don't care about how my FFB relates to reality very much because I want it to represent the Sim-physics and make it as immersive as it can be. It'd be great to know that my favorite title represents reality at the highest level possible so that I might convince myself that I actually have what it takes to be a real Race Car Driver - meh, who cares? I just want to be immersed in the experience as much as I can and enjoy it as time allows.

Right now, I'm really enjoying Automobilista; the FFB is so communicative and I feel I can balance the car on a razors edge as I navigate the tracks curves, feathering the throttle ever so carefully as the car performs graceful but, subtle 4-wheel drifts around each turn. It's something that few games get just right; a balance of physics, FFB, sounds and a sprinkle of details that takes the immersion to the next level. Of course, everyone is different and the title that works for me might be appallingly bad for the next person; that's Sim-Racing in a nutshell.

As far as the Pro-drivers go: I don't necessarily believe that because they are great real-life drivers that it automatically makes them great judges of Racing-Sim's either; it takes us years of playing many titles to develop our own judgements and experiences and they are not based on absolutes when it comes to "realistic" physics - just our perception. Something that I have learned over the last few years is just how much that experience is affected by the gear we use. Titles I once considered to have terrible FFB are now some of my favorites due to the hardware I'm using; it makes a bigger difference in how we judge physics as well as how much we enjoy the Sim overall. In a broad observation of Pro Race Driver's that play Sims, it's probably a lot like the rest of us - opinions as to which one is king are all over the place.

As my friend often says: "Just Shut Up and Drive".:)

poirqc
19-03-2016, 04:40
Okay, I'll add my bit to the conversation.

Regarding FFB: I've gotten to the point where I don't care about how my FFB relates to reality very much because I want it to represent the Sim-physics and make it as immersive as it can be. It'd be great to know that my favorite title represents reality at the highest level possible so that I might convince myself that I actually have what it takes to be a real Race Car Driver - meh, who cares? I just want to be immersed in the experience as much as I can and enjoy it as time allows.

Right now, I'm really enjoying Automobilista; the FFB is so communicative and I feel I can balance the car on a razors edge as I navigate the tracks curves, feathering the throttle ever so carefully as the car performs graceful but, subtle 4-wheel drifts around each turn. It's something that few games get just right; a balance of physics, FFB, sounds and a sprinkle of details that takes the immersion to the next level. Of course, everyone is different and the title that works for me might be appallingly bad for the next person; that's Sim-Racing in a nutshell.

As far as the Pro-drivers go: I don't necessarily believe that because they are great real-life drivers that it automatically makes them great judges of Racing-Sim's either; it takes us years of playing many titles to develop our own judgements and experiences and they are not based on absolutes when it comes to "realistic" physics - just our perception. Something that I have learned over the last few years is just how much that experience is affected by the gear we use. Titles I once considered to have terrible FFB are now some of my favorites due to the hardware I'm using; it makes a bigger difference in how we judge physics as well as how much we enjoy the Sim overall. In a broad observation of Pro Race Driver's that play Sims, it's probably a lot like the rest of us - opinions as to which one is king are all over the place.

As my friend often says: "Just Shut Up and Drive".:)

I remember when i used to play Guitar Hero fairly often. I could play expert. Nothing special here. Some day a friend of mine tried the game and was somewhat lousy at it. Barely managed to play medium.

But when you put a real guitar in his hand, he can play some awesome solos! He can even play(i don't know music) with a "normal" guitar turned the other way around!(he's a lefty)

You're right, id say, as long as you can get immersed the best you can, you're set!

Leper Messiah
19-03-2016, 18:33
Okay, I'll add my bit to the conversation.

Regarding FFB: I've gotten to the point where I don't care about how my FFB relates to reality very much because I want it to represent the Sim-physics and make it as immersive as it can be. It'd be great to know that my favorite title represents reality at the highest level possible so that I might convince myself that I actually have what it takes to be a real Race Car Driver - meh, who cares? I just want to be immersed in the experience as much as I can and enjoy it as time allows.

Right now, I'm really enjoying Automobilista; the FFB is so communicative and I feel I can balance the car on a razors edge as I navigate the tracks curves, feathering the throttle ever so carefully as the car performs graceful but, subtle 4-wheel drifts around each turn. It's something that few games get just right; a balance of physics, FFB, sounds and a sprinkle of details that takes the immersion to the next level. Of course, everyone is different and the title that works for me might be appallingly bad for the next person; that's Sim-Racing in a nutshell.

As far as the Pro-drivers go: I don't necessarily believe that because they are great real-life drivers that it automatically makes them great judges of Racing-Sim's either; it takes us years of playing many titles to develop our own judgements and experiences and they are not based on absolutes when it comes to "realistic" physics - just our perception. Something that I have learned over the last few years is just how much that experience is affected by the gear we use. Titles I once considered to have terrible FFB are now some of my favorites due to the hardware I'm using; it makes a bigger difference in how we judge physics as well as how much we enjoy the Sim overall. In a broad observation of Pro Race Driver's that play Sims, it's probably a lot like the rest of us - opinions as to which one is king are all over the place.

As my friend often says: "Just Shut Up and Drive".:)

Agreed about AMS ffb, it's really superb.

The problem is one of the biggest sticks to hit pCARS with regards to the "It's unrealistic simcade" nonsense was the ffb. ffb is NOT realistic and using it as a means to judge ones games sim "realism" over another is quite possibly one of the most stupid things a human can do on the internet.

As an "experience" it's WAY more fun and is in all likelyhood FAR more arcade like as it's an artificial (i.e. non simulation) layer of gaming. On the subject of AMS and FFB I read that it's recommended to set ffb to low for most realism, havn't tried it yet.

Leper Messiah
19-03-2016, 18:37
I remember when i used to play Guitar Hero fairly often. I could play expert. Nothing special here. Some day a friend of mine tried the game and was somewhat lousy at it. Barely managed to play medium.

But when you put a real guitar in his hand, he can play some awesome solos! He can even play(i don't know music) with a "normal" guitar turned the other way around!(he's a lefty)

You're right, id say, as long as you can get immersed the best you can, you're set!

to be fair a sim rig with a wheel does mimic the real controls of a car....whereas these Guitar hero controllers have nothing in common with a real guitar!! I've been playing guitar since I was 17ish (44 now) and still can't play Master of Puppets properly, mainly due to not practising enough and having no innate skill! Can you even go up and down the neck of a guitar controller?

Shinzah
19-03-2016, 18:45
to be fair a sim rig with a wheel does mimic the real controls of a car....whereas these Guitar hero controllers have nothing in common with a real guitar!! I've been playing guitar since I was 17ish (44 now) and still can't play Master of Puppets properly, mainly due to not practising enough and having no innate skill! Can you even go up and down the neck of a guitar controller?

Some of the newer Rockband/Guitar Hero type games (or them theyself) have more and more complex controllers, but its mostly just a take on "simon says" type memorization/reaction games and not meant to teach you music or musical theory.

A game like Rocksmith, uses an actual, real life guitar or bass, though and will help you either learn the instrument or practice your skills in a game environment. Which is super nice but a totally different outcome and design choice than a Guitar Hero or Drum Mania or similar titles.

So to your point - Rockband would be like an 'arcade' racer where rocksmith would be like a 'simulation' racer. Which isn't entirely inaccurate of a comparison.

RaceNut
20-03-2016, 01:10
Agreed about AMS ffb, it's really superb.

The problem is one of the biggest sticks to hit pCARS with regards to the "It's unrealistic simcade" nonsense was the ffb. ffb is NOT realistic and using it as a means to judge ones games sim "realism" over another is quite possibly one of the most stupid things a human can do on the internet.

As an "experience" it's WAY more fun and is in all likelyhood FAR more arcade like as it's an artificial (i.e. non simulation) layer of gaming. On the subject of AMS and FFB I read that it's recommended to set ffb to low for most realism, havn't tried it yet.

I do prefer the low FFB setting myself but, some of the other levels can have more dampening and that may feel more real or work better with certain wheels. I like the FFB to communicate information about what's missing compared to a real car; seat of the pants kind of stuff - and I think AMS does that really well. Using a strong wheel makes a car like the Formula Vee feel like it has massive levels of grip available but, it can feel very different with other wheels. All I know is that it's very satisfying to drive.

The Formula Rookie has some of the same qualities of the Formula Vee in terms of handling - still one of my favorites in Pcars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
20-03-2016, 01:27
I've often said that a well setup RealFeel system or well setup pCARS FFB are the best FFBs I've ever gotten in-game, and AMS (assuming that's for Automobilista?) has RealFeel. Their setup isn't perfect for my tastes, but I can just import my old rFactor settings and it'll get there. The only thing wrong after that is that it does highlight the shortcomings of the static tyre model, but you can't really get around that.

rF2 showed promise but in the end fell way short of RealFeel and broke a lot of wheels (have they gotten rid of the insane rattle problems on kerbs yet?) and... I dunno. It's either the FFB or the tyre model but rF2 just feels so damn NUMB when sliding beyond a certain angle in most cars. Trying to drift down Transfagarasan I feel like I'm just guessing the necessary lock most of the time. Great FFB for lapping a track though.

poirqc
20-03-2016, 02:45
to be fair a sim rig with a wheel does mimic the real controls of a car....whereas these Guitar hero controllers have nothing in common with a real guitar!! I've been playing guitar since I was 17ish (44 now) and still can't play Master of Puppets properly, mainly due to not practising enough and having no innate skill! Can you even go up and down the neck of a guitar controller?

The thing i had in mind about that is that we all throw our cars, in games, alot fasters than we would in real life. We try to race well, but we'll push more in the end, since there's no physical consequences. I may be able to lap fast on a given track here, but it would probably take me years of training to do the same in the real version of the combo.

I remeber a clip where one of Top Gear's host could barely drive a F1, even if he drove exotic cars for a long while.

Shinzah
20-03-2016, 03:03
The thing i had in mind about that is that we all throw our cars, in games, alot fasters than we would in real life. We try to race well, but we'll push more in the end, since there's no physical consequences. I may be able to lap fast on a given track here, but it would probably take me years of training to do the same in the real version of the combo.

I remeber a clip where one of Top Gear's host could barely drive a F1, even if he drove exotic cars for a long while.

One nice thing about this, is these kids coming up through simulation talent with club level experience just seeming absolutely fearless in some top class machinery. So it does seem to help the talent pool quite a bit.

F1_Racer68
20-03-2016, 05:51
The thing i had in mind about that is that we all throw our cars, in games, alot fasters than we would in real life. We try to race well, but we'll push more in the end, since there's no physical consequences. I may be able to lap fast on a given track here, but it would probably take me years of training to do the same in the real version of the combo.

I remeber a clip where one of Top Gear's host could barely drive a F1, even if he drove exotic cars for a long while.

The lack of "fear of bodily harm" is a big factor for sure. Using Top Gear as an example, Jeremy Clarkson once did a segment where he drove Laguna Seca in Gran Turismo, and then went out on track in a real car to try and match his lap time in the game. He never even got close. Simply because he couldn't bring himself to take certain sections at the same speed as he did in the game. That Self Preservation instinct kicked in.


One nice thing about this, is these kids coming up through simulation talent with club level experience just seeming absolutely fearless in some top class machinery. So it does seem to help the talent pool quite a bit.

I do agree. Simulations are still a great way to hone and develop talent as long as the approach is proper. The catch is that Sims are only 1 tool in the tool box. Sims alone won't do it.

Nissan makes such a big deal out of the GT Academy "Gamer to Racer" thing, but what they don't tell you is that everyone of the finalists and winners had some level of real world racing exposure/experience, usually karting. GT and GT Academy were great for giving them their chance and for "discovering" them, but GT wasn't what gave them their talents and skills (at least not exclusively). I know several former finalists myself. I have raced against them online in some pretty serious events. I will NOT take anything away from them, but Sim racing is not the only racing experience they had before they got to race camp.

The sim does however help teach basic principles and help teach the "language" of racing and some core race craft. Feel for the car and track though still comes from being in the seat. As good as sims are, eventually even pilots have to get out of the sim and into a real plane before they can truly know how to fly. The same is true for racing.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
20-03-2016, 09:22
This might interest people, it's a small documentary about the time when iRacing flew Greger Huttu, the world's fastest sim racer for a long long time, over to the US to drive real race cars and see how he held up. Greger had no driving experience in anything prior to that, he didn't even have a license.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_sCrM1CcI

mister dog
20-03-2016, 11:57
gotta ask this question how exactly do you know pCARS has the setups wrong and AC has them right? Have you driven the cars in reality?

It's comes down to objective and subjective, if you prefer one game over another then fair enough, but without the real world experience no-one is in ANY position to state if any one game is more realistic than another (I realise you don't say that Mr Dog, but many do).

For starters a lot of the cars were undriveable on default setups for me, and required a lot of tuning to make them handle ok. Remember the stanceworks 2002? :) I couldn't take one corner without crashing, same with the Radical RXC, it felt all wrong and awkward. Maybe that's just my wheel and faulty FFB settings, but then we come back to the first problem i described with the multitude of sliders, and getting lost as to how to set them up for your wheel in particular. Also in the car's individual FFB I had to play around with the Fy,x,z... sliders all the time.

None of those problems in AC, no cars are undriveable on default settings due to weird suspension setups. All I need to do is up the individual FFB slider of the car itself (1 slider!), if the FFB feels light so i get better feedback and that's it.

RaceNut
20-03-2016, 14:52
Something I'd like to see in regard to RL Pro-drivers use in racing-sims is Direct-drive wheels when judging physics and FFB. The difference it makes is massive and the ability to judge grip levels is greatly enhanced, I'd say even magnified. When using standard wheels, it may be best to run with moderate or low Force-strength to get the best results; running near max forces often has detrimental effects on user control but, not so with DD wheels. The overall range is just so much wider that forces can be super light near center and incredibly strong but, also informative at the extremes.

Direct-drive wheels are often said to be game changers; I'd want to add an exclamation mark onto that (!) :)

F1_Racer68
20-03-2016, 18:21
This might interest people, it's a small documentary about the time when iRacing flew Greger Huttu, the world's fastest sim racer for a long long time, over to the US to drive real race cars and see how he held up. Greger had no driving experience in anything prior to that, he didn't even have a license.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_sCrM1CcI

Tough to see the Justin Wilson segment in that video :(

Good video though, and pretty cool results. "Sim racers can drive." :)

I don't think they mentioned it in the video, but would love to know how his 1:24.8 in the real world matches up with his iRacing lap times at Road Atlanta.

I will also acknowledge that not being well will have impacted his ability to really get comfortable in the car, so I am sure he has more pace in him on a better day. It does also show though that as I said before, while a Sim can give you the basic building blocks, you still need that in-car experience along with it.

Kitt
20-03-2016, 19:55
For starters a lot of the cars were undriveable on default setups for me, and required a lot of tuning to make them handle ok. Remember the stanceworks 2002? :) I couldn't take one corner without crashing, same with the Radical RXC, it felt all wrong and awkward. Maybe that's just my wheel and faulty FFB settings, but then we come back to the first problem i described with the multitude of sliders, and getting lost as to how to set them up for your wheel in particular. Also in the car's individual FFB I had to play around with the Fy,x,z... sliders all the time.

None of those problems in AC, no cars are undriveable on default settings due to weird suspension setups. All I need to do is up the individual FFB slider of the car itself (1 slider!), if the FFB feels light so i get better feedback and that's it.
+1 again,and why is there all the sliders for the individual car FFB? surely that the devs job to set the characteristics for each car.

F1_Racer68
20-03-2016, 20:52
+1 again,and why is there all the sliders for the individual car FFB? surely that the devs job to set the characteristics for each car.

It's safe to say that the FFB settings and sliders is a classic case of "Careful what you wish for.... you might get it.".

As I recall, this was one of the key things that was being touted during development and marketing as being a major "user request". The ability to fine tune the FFB to your own personal preference.". In my case, this was one of the big features that I was looking forward to in this sim compared to others I had played in recent years, where I found the ability to set the FFB to my personal taste was limited to impossible.

Ironically now that the game has it, everyone wants a single, simple slider to adjust the strength..... go figure.... lol

Mad Al
20-03-2016, 21:00
+1 again,and why is there all the sliders for the individual car FFB? surely that the devs job to set the characteristics for each car.

You can just drive the cars (many of us do just that)... The whole point was to give people the choice, you say the devs should set the characteristic for each car, well they have...
but it doesn't stop someone who has never even driven the car, from thinking it's completely wrong and wanting it different.

poirqc
21-03-2016, 00:03
+1 again,and why is there all the sliders for the individual car FFB? surely that the devs job to set the characteristics for each car.

By default, each car has it's Car FFB set to the same values. The only exeptions are that some may have just a small touch of SoP(Forces from the rear wheels). Yet most cars don't feel the same. If i'm not mistaken, the game renders the steering rack (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/steering2.htm).

Like others said, You can then fine tune this or that based on personal reasons.

From my PoV, the only "wrong" right now is that the Default FFB template, at least on PC, comes with way too much Steering Gain. From 3 to 5. This sends you almost instantly in clipping land. It's easily fixable by puttin back SG to 1.

bmanic
21-03-2016, 10:04
Would stiffer suspension transfer the bumps to the arse stronger OR be felt more in the wheel?

Yes. And this is exactly what happens in pCars. Heck, you can even try lowering the tire pressures to minimum.. then set them to maximum and FEEL a huge difference in the FFB bumpiness. This is of course with my exaggerated FFB settings (you wouldn't feel it this detailed at all in reality).

bmanic
21-03-2016, 10:05
+1 again,and why is there all the sliders for the individual car FFB? surely that the devs job to set the characteristics for each car.

Because there is no such thing as "characteristics for a single car". Why? Because the steering forces coming from the simulator are _completely butchered_ by your plastic consumer wheel that has virtually zero resemblance to a real wheel.

Leper Messiah
21-03-2016, 13:56
For starters a lot of the cars were undriveable on default setups for me, and required a lot of tuning to make them handle ok. Remember the stanceworks 2002? :) I couldn't take one corner without crashing, same with the Radical RXC, it felt all wrong and awkward. Maybe that's just my wheel and faulty FFB settings, but then we come back to the first problem i described with the multitude of sliders, and getting lost as to how to set them up for your wheel in particular. Also in the car's individual FFB I had to play around with the Fy,x,z... sliders all the time.

None of those problems in AC, no cars are undriveable on default settings due to weird suspension setups. All I need to do is up the individual FFB slider of the car itself (1 slider!), if the FFB feels light so i get better feedback and that's it.

I understand that but how do we know how the "real" cars handle? Maybe pCARS had it right, I have no idea as I havn't driven the cars in reality so cannot make any judgement. I dislike it when some people do just that (once again not aiming the remark directly at you Mr dog!). I totally get how you prefer AC, it's brilliant....but so is pCARS, and all the others too. :) People will always gravitate to the sim that feels best to them on their equipment.

Although I do remember the Sauber C9 being an absolute arse for me in AC, but now after the tyre updates it's massively better, so AC is not immune from that sort of thing.

Leper Messiah
21-03-2016, 13:58
Yes. And this is exactly what happens in pCars. Heck, you can even try lowering the tire pressures to minimum.. then set them to maximum and FEEL a huge difference in the FFB bumpiness. This is of course with my exaggerated FFB settings (you wouldn't feel it this detailed at all in reality).

My original question was a choice so I'm confused, do you mean yes it'll transfer to the arse stronger and NOT the wheel?

Leper Messiah
21-03-2016, 14:02
I do prefer the low FFB setting myself but, some of the other levels can have more dampening and that may feel more real or work better with certain wheels. I like the FFB to communicate information about what's missing compared to a real car; seat of the pants kind of stuff - and I think AMS does that really well. Using a strong wheel makes a car like the Formula Vee feel like it has massive levels of grip available but, it can feel very different with other wheels. All I know is that it's very satisfying to drive.

The Formula Rookie has some of the same qualities of the Formula Vee in terms of handling - still one of my favorites in Pcars.

Yeah I did a few hours yesterday on the base level 360hz ffb with no effects and it was not a million miles away from pCARS. Some kerbs gave me no rumble and even the largest saw toothed kerbs gave just a slight vibration, once agan comparable to pCARS.


I've often said that a well setup RealFeel system or well setup pCARS FFB are the best FFBs I've ever gotten in-game, and AMS (assuming that's for Automobilista?) has RealFeel. Their setup isn't perfect for my tastes, but I can just import my old rFactor settings and it'll get there. The only thing wrong after that is that it does highlight the shortcomings of the static tyre model, but you can't really get around that.

rF2 showed promise but in the end fell way short of RealFeel and broke a lot of wheels (have they gotten rid of the insane rattle problems on kerbs yet?) and... I dunno. It's either the FFB or the tyre model but rF2 just feels so damn NUMB when sliding beyond a certain angle in most cars. Trying to drift down Transfagarasan I feel like I'm just guessing the necessary lock most of the time. Great FFB for lapping a track though.

Indeed I call Automobilista AMS! I'm having a smeg load of fun with it.

DreamsKnight
21-03-2016, 16:16
Indeed I call Automobilista AMS!

and you are wrong! :D

automobilista is an Italian word meaning "driver" in the strict sense of the owner and driver of a normal car everyday. in the case of races and to call professional driver, we use the word pilota (pilot). for cars, but also for motorbikes and planes.

automobilista is a word made by a prefix automobil- (automobile is a car) and suffix -ista that works in a similar way of the english -er.

so exactly like is wrong use DVR to say driver, it is also wrong to use AMS to say automobilista.

:D

i think in english you use "pet peeve" for speech like this. sorry. :D


PS: Assetto Corsa means racing setup :D

balderz002
21-03-2016, 16:19
Every day is a school day, hey Dreams...... Like it!

havocc
21-03-2016, 16:20
Although I do remember the Sauber C9 being an absolute arse for me in AC, but now after the tyre updates it's massively better, so AC is not immune from that sort of thing.

a nightmare on every slow corner exit

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
21-03-2016, 16:23
It's funny how a game with IIRC only ONE road car (the Camaro) and plenty of racing cars calls itself "everyday driver", and a game with more road cars than racing cars (and where most road cars have barely any setup options) calls itself "racing setup". =)

mister dog
21-03-2016, 17:55
It's safe to say that the FFB settings and sliders is a classic case of "Careful what you wish for.... you might get it.".

As I recall, this was one of the key things that was being touted during development and marketing as being a major "user request". The ability to fine tune the FFB to your own personal preference.". In my case, this was one of the big features that I was looking forward to in this sim compared to others I had played in recent years, where I found the ability to set the FFB to my personal taste was limited to impossible.

Ironically now that the game has it, everyone wants a single, simple slider to adjust the strength..... go figure.... lol

Word around the sim racers campfire is that it was difficult for the devs to include optimized presets for all the different wheels out there, so at the end of development they just chose to include everything and let us figure it out ourselves.

You'd have to be a bit sadomasochistic to want 20 different sliders in the main settings coupled with 20 or so more for every individual car. The lack of clear descriptions on screen next to all the sliders, also gives the me impression it wasn't a decision that was planned long beforehand.

Mahjik
21-03-2016, 17:59
Word around the sim racers campfire is that it was difficult for the devs to include optimized presets for all the different wheels out there, so at the end of development they just chose to include everything and let us figure it out ourselves.

Not exactly correct. The goal was always to include all of the sliders. What couldn't get consensus from WMD was the default FFB setups for each wheel. Different people liked different things so no one agreed on anything.

Konan
21-03-2016, 18:01
Not exactly correct. The goal was always to include all of the sliders. What couldn't get consensus from WMD was the default FFB setups for each wheel. Different people liked different things so no one agreed on anything.

Understandable.....

mister dog
21-03-2016, 18:29
Not exactly correct. The goal was always to include all of the sliders. What couldn't get consensus from WMD was the default FFB setups for each wheel. Different people liked different things so no one agreed on anything.
Ok thanks for clearing that out. In any case i find 40 or so sliders a bit excessive. At the beginning i was all for it but after experiencing it for a while, i noticed i spend more time on message boards or in the options menus than actually playing the game.

I hope for PCARS 2 the amount of sliders can be scaled down to the ones that have the biggest overall impact, and that descriptions can be 'simplified' so people have a good idea of what they are adjusting exactly.

RaceNut
21-03-2016, 18:52
Just to Clarify and according to Reiza's official title:

Automobilista - MotorSports Simulator (AMS for short):)

Gassolini
21-03-2016, 19:11
Ok thanks for clearing that out. In any case i find 40 or so sliders a bit excessive. At the beginning i was all for it but after experiencing it for a while, i noticed i spend more time on message boards or in the options menus than actually playing the game.

I hope for PCARS 2 the amount of sliders can be scaled down to the ones that have the biggest overall impact, and that descriptions can be 'simplified' so people have a good idea of what they are adjusting exactly.
There's always the dilemmas related to: "Must adjust all settings because they're there!" :p

Perhaps the best thing is to identify the few parameters that govern the main characteristics, and for the most part stick to adjusting them. Like e.g. the main FFB strength and Mz, or something like that. It takes a lot of self discipline for the tinkering-minded to leave all those shiny slider alone though...

As you say, the thought of all the options had everybody drooling (I'm all for options, options and more options!). If most of the FFB sliders were left out and people only had to deal with, say, 3 or 4 of them, perhaps it would be easier to not get lost and thus less complaints(?) 230207

DreamsKnight
21-03-2016, 19:21
It's funny how a game with IIRC only ONE road car (the Camaro) and plenty of racing cars calls itself "everyday driver", and a game with more road cars than racing cars (and where most road cars have barely any setup options) calls itself "racing setup". =)

i made a little error, it is race setup. speaking about marketing, AC works very well in italian, i read corsa (race) and i see a car, so i know instantly what is. beside this, like in english, race setup is not only about dampers and springs. your rig is a race setup, or your mind can have race setup approach. the only problem can be that the team is italian, and usually in italy we are racist with ourselves. :confused:

about automobilista... ehm , that sounds strange to me. the first time i read you all speaking about automobilista, i was thinking it was the evolution of this

http://citycardriving.com/

:D


Just to Clarify and according to Reiza's official title:

Automobilista - MotorSports Simulator (AMS for short):)

ah ok! Now, as a pure italian guy, i allow you to use the acronym AMS. :cool: :yes:

in any case it seems that you enjoyed the lesson. :D

RomKnight
21-03-2016, 19:37
Reiza being from Brasil and portuguese the language Automobilista is just the one who drives a car

PS: sounds bad as a game title even for me.

/edit

seen Dream's post. Guess it is the same in italian :)

F1_Racer68
21-03-2016, 19:40
And all this just goes to prove that literal translations of words or terms rarely ever work......

I see the same thing every day trying to translate German and French into English, or vice versa. Word for word translations almost never make sense once they are translated. You always end up having to look for the meaning or context of the expression rather than the meaning of the individual words.

But with that said, Thank you @DreamsKnight for the education. I for one appreciate it!

DreamsKnight
21-03-2016, 19:58
Reiza being from Brasil and portuguese the language Automobilista is just the one who drives a car

PS: sounds bad as a game title even for me.

/edit

seen Dream's post. Guess it is the same in italian :)

i checked portuguese in google traslate, but it say to me "motorista". so i started for the italian lesson. :D

i hope automobilista seems exotic for the other guys :encouragement::encouragement:

mister dog
21-03-2016, 20:27
There's always the dilemmas related to: "Must adjust all settings because they're there!" :p

Perhaps the best things is to identify the few parameters that governs the main characteristics, and for the most part stick to adjusting them. Like e.g. the main FFB strength and Mz, or something like that. It takes a lot of self discipline for the tinkering-minded to leave all those shiny slider alone though...

As you say, the thought of all the options had everybody drooling (I'm all for options, options and more options!). If most of the FFB sliders were left out and people only had to deal with, say, 3 or 4 of them, perhaps it would be easier to not get lost and thus less complaints(?) 230207
Indeed, i first started out only with the individual FFB sliders, mostly Fx,y,z and Mz. That in itself was a bit tiresome after a while as i felt the need to get every car in the game 'just right'. I even made a sheet where i would save those settings for all the cars but halfway through i got tired of spending all my game time that way, and i just went for Jack Spade files. Spent some time experimenting with those before i got the urge to enter 'the dark zone', and start playing around with the main FFB settings. That whole experimenting phase lasted about half a year so it meant i only got as far as the superkarts in career mode :p

Switching to AC made it a lot easier in that regard, bit of time to get the main FFB sliders right which are not too hard to figure out, and then adjust the FFB slider on the car itself and you're good to go. I bet that in those last 3 months of AC i did far more driving and racing than i did in half a year of PCARS to be honest.

Like you say give an overload of FFB options to the 'tinkering-minded', and they will get hopelessly lost in the pursuit of perfect FFB...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
21-03-2016, 20:36
Can't say I ever really adjust more than the master scale in per car settings unless there's something really specific going on, like with some of the vintage tyres. A good linear overall FFB setup (via the help of programs like FCM to figure out the response of your wheel) is all I've ever needed.

RaceNut
21-03-2016, 20:43
@mister dog: Many of us using SimCommander4 to tune the AccuForce had a similar experience with having too many parameters to adjust and found ourselves going in circles chasing our own tails.

Then, MockRacer released the AccuForce Tuning Guide For Dummies and we were all saved from ourselves! :)

It offered us a way to simplify the tuning approach and focus on the most pertinent settings first; only then, one can make fine adjustments using secondary effects. It works like a charm.

It's great to have the options for all possible parameters with FFB but, one of the options should be a simplified one for those that don't have the time or the interest to learn every aspect of tuning FFB; not to mention the fact that there is also the hardware tuning side of things.

Mahjik
21-03-2016, 20:43
Switching to AC made it a lot easier in that regard, bit of time to get the main FFB sliders right which are not too hard to figure out, and then adjust the FFB slider on the car itself and you're good to go. I bet that in those last 3 months of AC i did far more driving and racing than i did in half a year of PCARS to be honest.


Can't say I ever really adjust more than the master scale in per car settings unless there's something really specific going on, like with some of the vintage tyres. A good linear overall FFB setup (via the help of programs like FCM to figure out the response of your wheel) is all I've ever needed.

Like Jussi, I've only ever touched a few of the settings. I found a few things I liked and then blasted them to all cars. I only adjust the master scale then when needed. As mentioned by Gassolini, just because all of the settings exist; it does't mean you have to adjust all of them... ;)

iRacing is similar. There isn't much you can adjust with iRacing and there were many complaints about that when it first opened up. Many users were used to rFactor and GTR2 which had a lot of options for adjusting FFB. In some ways I do appreciate the simplicity that iRacing brought to the market, but at other times I do want it "my way".

BTW, GTR2 FFB menu:



BTW, let's not forget GTR2's FFB (which doesn't make any more sense to me than pCARS's options ;) ):

230220

F1_Racer68
21-03-2016, 20:46
I like the fact that the abundance of FFB settings made me research what they each do and how they relate to what I am feeling and what the car is doing. I guess that's just my inner engineer coming out to play again. It forced me to research it and learn it.

I think in the end it also helped me with fine tuning the car's suspension, because understanding what movement of the wheel I was feeling helped me understand what suspension components I needed to target when something in the setup didn't "feel" right.

But that's just me......... and I am an Ubergeek when it comes to this racing stuff. I don't have the best hardware money can buy (too small a budget), but I certainly get far more in depth with it than the average sim racer. Especially the technical and strategic side of it. I know...... it's an illness...... I'm very sick..... LOL

RaceNut
21-03-2016, 20:48
@Mahjik: is it weird that I have the urge to install GTR2 and experiment with those FFB settings now?:)

F1_Racer68
21-03-2016, 20:49
@Mahjik: is it weird that I have the urge to install GTR2 and experiment with those FFB settings now?:)

Not wierd at all! I still spend time in GTR2 and GTL at least twice a week. Do it! You won't regret it (well, maybe you will when you realize it's been 12 hours since oyu last ate).

mister dog
21-03-2016, 21:07
BTW, let's not forget GTR2's FFB (which doesn't make any more sense to me than pCARS's options ;) ):

230220
Didn't play GTR2 but that looks a bit more intuitive than PCARS IMO. Steering vibe as in steering vibrations... makes sense :yes:
Terms like 'linkage damping', 'relative adjust bleed' or 'scoop reduction' and soft clipping (half input) open the door for a lot of confusion in comparison.

And then the explanations: "Scoop reduction refers to the input force reduction below the knee. Above the knee, the force slope is increased such that at 10 input force, the output force is 10":

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpg

bporion
21-03-2016, 21:13
Didn't play GTR2 but that looks a bit more intuitive than PCARS IMO. Steering vibe as in steering vibrations... makes sense :yes:
Terms like 'linkage damping', 'relative adjust bleed' or 'scoop reduction' and soft clipping (half input) open the door for a lot of confusion in comparison.

And then the explanations: "Scoop reduction refers to the input force reduction below the knee. Above the knee, the force slope is increased such that at 10 input force, the output force is 10":

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpg

lol ! Exactly the explanation needs an explanation .

F1_Racer68
21-03-2016, 21:20
OK, I admit it. I agree with the part about the explanations needing explanations. :D

Gassolini
21-03-2016, 21:25
Didn't play GTR2 but that looks a bit more intuitive than PCARS IMO. Steering vibe as in steering vibrations... makes sense :yes:
Those settings mostly control various canned FFB FX in the old ISI engine though, not actual physics derived rack forces. The terms are indeed easier to understand for a layman, so that part is good. Hovewer, and that's a big HOWEVER, surely we don't want to go back to the relative primitivism of that.

Edit: Perhaps the detailed FFB settings should be hidden far away in the next iteration of pCARS. Enabled by a 'secret' command line switch even?

Some simmers, including myself, find the pCARS way very educational. The Whole WMD/pCARS thing taught me a lot about vehicle dynamics, thanks to the intricacies of the sim itself, WMD members (including some Professionals in the field) sharing their in depth knowledge and long threads going into excrutiating detail about various issues. Like F1_Racer68, I'm a bit of a geek I guess, so that was probably my favourite part of WMD.

Hobbs77
21-03-2016, 22:52
Like Jussi, I've only ever touched a few of the settings. I found a few things I liked and then blasted them to all cars. I only adjust the master scale then when needed. As mentioned by Gassolini, just because all of the settings exist; it does't mean you have to adjust all of them... ;)

iRacing is similar. There isn't much you can adjust with iRacing and there were many complaints about that when it first opened up. Many users were used to rFactor and GTR2 which had a lot of options for adjusting FFB. In some ways I do appreciate the simplicity that iRacing brought to the market, but at other times I do want it "my way".

BTW, GTR2 FFB menu:



BTW, let's not forget GTR2's FFB (which doesn't make any more sense to me than pCARS's options ;) ):

230220

I may be mistaken...but I believe that's a 3rd parties advanced menu made from a simpler GTR2 orrignal menu.

I also think it was a mistake to release this game with a wide open FF format only and is probably one of the major reasons why many people prefer AC over pCARS. Because of the initial feel they're getting from their wheel. It took me 20 min to get a decent wheel feeling setup in AC and I'm still not happy to this day with CARS. Most people just want to plugin and play not spend hours on end to find a decent setup. It should have been much simpler set up with all the universal canned effects ie brake rumble, curb pull/rumble, road bumps ect. and then left it open for those who want explore for hours on end. I personally miss the -gold dev F1 button option we had during development. Hope someone can get that option back!

mister dog
21-03-2016, 23:03
Those settings mostly control various canned FFB FX in the old ISI engine though, not actual physics derived rack forces. The terms are indeed easier to understand for a layman, so that part is good. Hovewer, and that's a big HOWEVER, surely we don't want to go back to the relative primitivism of that.
You don't have to go back to downgraded physics/ FFB, but a better way to make them accessible for the majority of players who have only a basic understanding of FFB. Layman terms would already go a very long way, as now you have the mix of a complicated FFB system with explanations that complicate things even more. I wouldn't mind seeing that one overall slider for the individual car FFB too, as opposed to the 20 or so we have in PCARS currently.

Point being that AC achieves the same levels of detailed FFB and road feel with not even half the sliders that PCARS has, so the way Kunos implemented it should serve as an example in this case. Nothing wrong in talking over the good stuff from the competition if their formula has proven to be one that works, as opposed to something that currently is over complicated and confusing to most. Tricky part being how you'd package all of it to achieve the same results with half the available options.

Schnizz58
21-03-2016, 23:07
I think the terms as they are are fine (I can't think of what the layman's term for soft clipping would be). However, more detailed explanation of how the processing chain works would be extremely helpful. The FFB Guide was a good start but not detailed enough. For example I'd love to know exactly how relative torque adjust works.

mister dog
21-03-2016, 23:13
I think the terms as they are are fine Ok, then i'd like to hear your explanation of "Scoop reduction refers to the input force reduction below the knee. Above the knee, the force slope is increased such that at 10 input force, the output force is 10" :D

I'm still wondering if it actually involves my knees lol.

Schnizz58
21-03-2016, 23:24
If I knew more about how scoop reduction worked I could answer that for you but I'll give it a shot.
"Scoop reduction refers to the input force reduction below the knee." - that's pretty self-explanatory. Gain is reduced below the knee.
"Above the knee, the force slope is increased such that at 10 input force, the output force is 10" - the gain is increased above the knee to make up for the reduction below the knee.
The combined effect of this is to make wheels with response curves that flatten out at the upper end more linear.

What's the layman's term for scoop reduction?

Gassolini
21-03-2016, 23:36
Ok, then i'd like to hear your explanation of "Scoop reduction refers to the input force reduction below the knee. Above the knee, the force slope is increased such that at 10 input force, the output force is 10" :D

I'm still wondering if it actually involves my knees lol.
I'm not Schnizz58 , but I'll attempt to explain. "Scoop" is a concave part of a curve (aka "smiley face"). "Knee" is the region where the curve changes shape or slope. The terms are known from other areas, e.g. in audio processing. Something like this:

230225

I know what you mean, though. Me, I just like "study-sims" and techy stuff in general :)

Edit: Ninja'd by Schnizz58 himself while making a drawing... :D


...What's the layman's term for scoop reduction?
"Smiley face" I'd think. A term form the beginning of time; every disco oriented sound system used one on the Equalizer :)

Schnizz58
21-03-2016, 23:42
I'm not Schnizz58 , but I'll attempt to explain. "Scoop" is a concave part of a curve (aka "smiley face"). "Knee" is the region where the curve changes shape or slope. The terms are known from other areas, e.g. in audio processing. Something like this:

I know what you mean, though. Me, I just like "study-sims" :)

Edit: Ninja'd by Schnizz58 himself while making a drawing... :D
I was actually thinking if I only had a way to make a drawing...

As I understand it (and again, since documentation is lacking I'm not sure this is correct) in the game it's more like two straight lines. So I'd describe it this way (in lieu of a good diagram). Imagine a straight line at a 45° angle. This represents unity gain (a gain of 1). The line is anchored at two points: one at the origin and the other at the max value. Now pick a point in the middle somewhere (the knee) and drag the line downwards by some amount (the reduction). What you're left with is two straight lines, one with a shallow slope and the other with a steeper slope. This represents the scoop curve. Input is on the x-axis and output is on the y-axis.

poirqc
21-03-2016, 23:47
lol ! Exactly the explanation needs an explanation .


I think the terms as they are are fine (I can't think of what the layman's term for soft clipping would be). However, more detailed explanation of how the processing chain works would be extremely helpful. The FFB Guide was a good start but not detailed enough. For example I'd love to know exactly how relative torque adjust works.

For those wondering about what Soft Clipping and Scoops does. Well, skoader(with the help of various forum members) wrote a program that can help visualise how they interact. He got pretty close to what's probably happening in pCars:
230226

Keep in mid those values probably doesn't translate well to driving. I just used those to clearly show what the tools are doing.
You can download the util in the Wheel FFB thread, in my signature.

As for various useful FFB informations, try to search tennenbaum's post on the forum. He's a pretty knowledgable guy!

@Schnizz58: Your signature really made me laugh!

Schnizz58
21-03-2016, 23:50
Yep, I did pretty much the same thing with a spreadsheet. I think skoader got it a little bit wrong but certainly close enough for this explanation.

F1_Racer68
22-03-2016, 00:09
As I understand it, The "Scoop Knee" is essentially a graphical line (like Gassolini posted) that represents the low vs. strong forces transition of the force feedback. The Scoop Knee and Scoop Reduction settings allow you to control how harsh or how smooth this transition is.

Keep in mind, that we are talking here about how the wheel translates the forces applied to it by the physics of the game. If I were to try and provide another example to try and help people visualize it, I would suggest looking at Dampers (Shocks) as they have a similar "knee" situation.

With dampers, there is a curve to how they respond to forces applied to them. This curve represent both Fast and Slow forces. The Knee is the point where the transition happens between the damper handling a "fast" force vs. a "slow" force (Jussi's excellent suspension calculator shows you these graphs).

Applying a similar thought process to the FFB being fed to the wheel in your hands, there are "soft" forces and there are "harsh" forces. The Scoop Knee value controls where this transition occurs, and the Scoop Reduction helps refine the transition from a sharp angle to a smoother curve as shown below. This graphic is from the "Force Curve Modifier" tool created by skoader.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213095&d=1437687216&thumb=1

The link to his tool is here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1110835&viewfull=1#post1110835

EDIT: ninja'd by poirqc

Gassolini
22-03-2016, 00:12
I was actually thinking if I only had a way to make a drawing...

As I understand it (and again, since documentation is lacking I'm not sure this is correct) in the game it's more like two straight lines. So I'd describe it this way (in lieu of a good diagram). Imagine a straight line at a 45° angle. This represents unity gain (a gain of 1). The line is anchored at two points: one at the origin and the other at the max value. Now pick a point in the middle somewhere (the knee) and drag the line downwards by some amount (the reduction). What you're left with is two straight lines, one with a shallow slope and the other with a steeper slope. This represents the scoop curve. Input is on the x-axis and output is on the y-axis.
Yes that could be it in the game (I don't know the function used in the game) - my drawing was just a general explanation of scoops and knees. Here's an update with the straight segment variety, since I have a drawing program handy:

230227

Edit: Dayum! Ninjas everywhere 230228

I wonder if the linked tool uses the actual functions that are in the game. I'd be surprised if straight segments are used, but you never know. I'm sure Casey knows though... Casey?

F1_Racer68
22-03-2016, 00:18
Old McDonald had a Ninja... ee aye ee aye oh. With a Ninja here, and a Ninja there. Here a Ninja there a Ninja. Everywhere a Ninja......

Mahjik
22-03-2016, 00:20
Because of the initial feel they're getting from their wheel. It took me 20 min to get a decent wheel feeling setup in AC and I'm still not happy to this day with CARS.

It could also be with the limited options in AC, you give up and just accept what you have at a certain point... With pCARS, you could still think that "magical FFB setting" is around the corner since there are so many combinations to try. Just my own theory...


For me, I find the pCARS FFB so far the closest thing that I feel in my actual race car. I didn't spend hours, days or months tweaking it. I picked a few things to tweak and that was it. I think people go way to far with FFB and end up with something much worse than what they should be using.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 00:25
I wonder if the linked tool uses the actual functions that are in the game.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It's his interpretation of how the processing works.


I'd be surprised if straight segments are used, but you never know. I'm sure Casey knows though... Casey?
I think the game does use straight lines because the description talks about "slopes" and it makes the computation much easier.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 00:26
I think people go way to far with FFB and end up with something much worse than what they should be using.
Amen to that. Just because those processing functions exist doesn't mean you have to use them. They are there to solve a certain problem. If you don't have that problem there's no need to use that function. My own FFB got a lot better when I turned some of them off.

poirqc
22-03-2016, 00:57
It could also be with the limited options in AC, you give up and just accept what you have at a certain point... With pCARS, you could still think that "magical FFB setting" is around the corner since there are so many combinations to try. Just my own theory...


For me, I find the pCARS FFB so far the closest thing that I feel in my actual race car. I didn't spend hours, days or months tweaking it. I picked a few things to tweak and that was it. I think people go way to far with FFB and end up with something much worse than what they should be using.


Amen to that. Just because those processing functions exist doesn't mean you have to use them. They are there to solve a certain problem. If you don't have that problem there's no need to use that function. My own FFB got a lot better when I turned some of them off.

You're both right. Lot's of time, the simplest thing are the better. With that said...

The problems is that we're all dreamers. We all like unicorns. The second we think we can find the next great thing, we'll get a shot at it, one time or another!

I mean, you can't put that many sliders and just say:"Move on guys, there's nothing to see here. Don't touch any of these!" :D

Gassolini
22-03-2016, 00:59
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It's his interpretation of how the processing works.


I think the game does use straight lines because the description talks about "slopes" and it makes the computation much easier.
Well yes, but a simple x^y (e.g. x^3) (http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwiZXEiOiJ4XjMiLCJjb2xvciI6IiMwMDAwMDAifSx7InR5cGUiOjEwMDAsIndpbmRvdyI6WyItOSIsIjQiLCItNC4yMiIsIjMuNzgiXX1d) interpolated as needed against a linear segment is cheap as chips and does the job in many cases. If the scoop and the log functions in the game all used straight segments, the FFB might get too much sudden transitions. That could be smoothed with cheap leaky integrators though, since we're dealing with a time series. But hey, we're speculating now :)

Hobbs77
22-03-2016, 01:20
It could also be with the limited options in AC, you give up and just accept what you have at a certain point....


LOL...Nope... That has nothing to do with it! I had plenty of hours of satisfying play with simple, easy to setup FF settings with GTR1-2, RACE 07 series, iRacing, rFactor, ect...... I miss some of the canned effects that I've become accustomed to over the yrs is probably more accurate. You should be able to adjust the brake, road, curb, FF ect effects quick and easily. But that's not the case with pCARS.... Not even close! Oh well, "It is what it is" I guess.

Just for the record....I prefer playing pCARS over AC. I just wish they gave us a more straight forward FF setup option with the ability to use the universal canned effects.

F1_Racer68
22-03-2016, 01:53
LOL...Nope... That has nothing to do with it! I had plenty of hours of satisfying play with simple, easy to setup FF settings with GTR1-2, RACE 07 series, iRacing, rFactor, ect...... I miss some of the canned effects that I've become accustomed to over the yrs is probably more accurate. You should be able to adjust the brake, road, curb, FF ect effects quick and easily. But that's not the case with pCARS.... Not even close! Oh well, "It is what it is" I guess.

Just for the record....I prefer playing pCARS over AC. I just wish they gave us a more straight forward FF setup option with the ability to use the universal canned effects.

Part of that complexity in pCARS though comes from the fact that the FFB is generated on the fly by the game physics, whereas all the other sims you mentioned used canned effects.

For that reason alone, pCARS settings will automatically be more complex and therefore not possible to do a "simple adjust the brakes, curbs, etc.".

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-03-2016, 02:11
Part of that complexity in pCARS though comes from the fact that the FFB is generated on the fly by the game physics, whereas all the other sims you mentioned used canned effects.AC, iRacing, rF2 and any isiMotor game set to use the RealFeel plugin (so rFactor, Automobilista, possible in Race 07 series as well) also use some form of steering rack modeling or tyre contact patch force modeling as a part of the FFB signal (possibly RRRE as well but I don't know for certain), and pCARS is also fully capable of using canned effects to supplement the steering rack modeling, those effects have just been turned off.

Canned vs. physics derived FFB aren't mutually exclusive, most games use a combination of both.

F1_Racer68
22-03-2016, 02:24
Fair enough. Thanks for setting me straight.

JessicaWalter
22-03-2016, 02:57
We all like unicorns

on a roll with some horseradish and stilton, with a side of coleslaw

JohnSchoonsBeard
22-03-2016, 09:19
Amen to that. Just because those processing functions exist doesn't mean you have to use them. They are there to solve a certain problem. If you don't have that problem there's no need to use that function. My own FFB got a lot better when I turned some of them off.

Yes, that's my experience too. The trouble is how would people know what to turn off without understanding the explanation in the first place? The field descriptions can be a lot better in game. The game needs to put descriptions in proper layman's terms (non physics speak) so people can understand. Assume little or no knowledge at all. Don't assume terms like torque, scoop, knee are self explanatory. Thats a typical mistake made when trying to explain something complex.

The Project Cars in game force feedback descriptions and also the guide that was put together on this forum make that mistake in places. The guide on here certainly helps but can still be improved. For Project Cars 2 it needs inclusion in the game interface for each and every field.

I used to have to explain complex statistical forecasting techniques when running software training courses to people that often weren't mathematicians. They needed to have faith in the numbers/information that the software produced and know when, why and how to tweak all of the data that affected the statistical models. The success to those courses was in ensuring that everyone was able to understand how they could use those methods to improve their business. This was done not by blinding with science but by careful explanation of the concepts and terms at the lowest level of understanding.

I think the explanations can be improved on to make it easier to understand how tweaking those settings affects the feedback from the car at the gamer's wheel. We should work on that for Project Cars 2. Gassolini should write it.

Leper Messiah
22-03-2016, 14:24
and you are wrong! :D

automobilista is an Italian word meaning "driver" in the strict sense of the owner and driver of a normal car everyday. in the case of races and to call professional driver, we use the word pilota (pilot). for cars, but also for motorbikes and planes.

automobilista is a word made by a prefix automobil- (automobile is a car) and suffix -ista that works in a similar way of the english -er.

so exactly like is wrong use DVR to say driver, it is also wrong to use AMS to say automobilista.

:D

i think in english you use "pet peeve" for speech like this. sorry. :D


PS: Assetto Corsa means racing setup :D


Just to Clarify and according to Reiza's official title:

Automobilista - MotorSports Simulator (AMS for short):)

Hence why I call it AMS! :)