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Bernhard
21-03-2016, 22:12
Hi,

I am now playing PC for some time on PC with wheel without assistants and I enjoy quite a bit.

But the AI for the Race Engineer is f** up quite a bit of the experience here and some of it are clearly bugs. Maybe they can be taken care of in the near future, that would be great:

- the most annoying one: If changing weather conditions are forcing to change tires (and ALL AI cars are changing them!), you request a pit stop, change your tires, few laps later the Race Engineer is calling you in for your mandatory tyre change! So the individual request for tyre change is NOT taken into account of the mandatory tyre change - what you have to do in addition - or - drive some rounds with completely wrong tyres until your RE is calling you in by himself...

- commenting about a win miles ahead in a situation with ~1 second lead...

- asking you in for a pit stop in the last round in leading position (due to minor damage or a like)

It would greatly add to the over all experience if the comments and mandatory pit stop situation of the Race Engingeer would be overworked..

And probably asked for by many, many players - a suitable system for saving and exchanging car setups - that was possible for much older titles.. A pity it was not taken care of for this program...

And talking of a wishlist - a decent documentation would be great of course, as with almost any games nowadays, this is missing...

otherwise I enjoy playing it a lot!

cheers,
Bernhard

WarHamster
21-03-2016, 22:22
Yea the ingame race engineer is pretty useless. Try the crew chief app! Found here
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38922-Crew-Chief-an-alternative-race-engineer-for-console-amp-PC

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 00:35
thx for the hint, I'll try it.

But does it also solve the most annoying thing about the mandatory pit stop did not check that I have made already one?!

kevin kirk
22-03-2016, 00:54
Hi,

I am now playing PC for some time on PC with wheel without assistants and I enjoy quite a bit.

But the AI for the Race Engineer is f** up quite a bit of the experience here and some of it are clearly bugs. Maybe they can be taken care of in the near future, that would be great:

- the most annoying one: If changing weather conditions are forcing to change tires (and ALL AI cars are changing them!), you request a pit stop, change your tires, few laps later the Race Engineer is calling you in for your mandatory tyre change! So the individual request for tyre change is NOT taken into account of the mandatory tyre change - what you have to do in addition - or - drive some rounds with completely wrong tyres until your RE is calling you in by himself...

- commenting about a win miles ahead in a situation with ~1 second lead...

- asking you in for a pit stop in the last round in leading position (due to minor damage or a like)

It would greatly add to the over all experience if the comments and mandatory pit stop situation of the Race Engingeer would be overworked..

And probably asked for by many, many players - a suitable system for saving and exchanging car setups - that was possible for much older titles.. A pity it was not taken care of for this program...

And talking of a wishlist - a decent documentation would be great of course, as with almost any games nowadays, this is missing...

otherwise I enjoy playing it a lot!

cheers,
Bernhard....the crew chef app brings this game to another level. A absolute must for playing the game. Doesn't even feel like pcars without this crew chef.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-03-2016, 01:05
Eh, depends on the level you're racing at. The vast majority of racing in the world has little to no radio communications with the pit other than at the highest levels, and spotters are rare outside ovals. For me it's honestly mostly a thing that I consider unrealistic, but helpful (mainly because the mirror camera is in the wrong place and makes the rear view mirrors nigh useless).

kevin kirk
22-03-2016, 01:10
For me everytime I look to the side to check my mirrors it screws with my eyes, coming from years of nascar games its just seems natural. Plus he has times and so on.

Bealdor
22-03-2016, 06:14
thx for the hint, I'll try it.

But does it also solve the most annoying thing about the mandatory pit stop did not check that I have made already one?!

That's not a bug. If the weather forces you to pit before the mandatory pit stop window opens, you'll have to do another one.

Default
22-03-2016, 08:48
Sorry to dissapoint you but most likely the game is going to remain the way it is.

The race engineer is a robot and is programmed to do what he does. I've made a mistake from the lead, lost a place & 5 seconds and when I cross the line he goes "Gap to the leader is 5 seconds, Good Job!"

You can use the crew chief app but I feel part of being a good racing driver is awareness of your surroundings based on mirrors, looking left and right, and engine sound you should know where your opponent is at all times even though you cannot see him.
On ovals it's needed for obvious reasons but on circuit racing not really.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 17:11
As far as I am concerened I am not looking for that kind of information about telling me that there is a car left or right to me.
But the general information given should be reflected to the game situation and be meaningful.

But I don't understand the part with the mandatory pit stop issue not being a bug.. WHY do I have to wait until my race engineer is calling me in for the mandatory pitstop? Even when it clearly does not make ANY sense and EVERYBODY else (AI-cars themselves) are pulling in for changing tyres one lap earlier due to weather situation?! Then I still have to wait until my (stupid) race engineer is calling me in - regardless if I have had a pitstop already?!) That does not make any sensee, but justifying a bug in the system?!

ramm21
22-03-2016, 17:20
That's not a bug. If the weather forces you to pit before the mandatory pit stop window opens, you'll have to do another one.

I pitted before the mandatory window pops up, and then just ignore the warnings for the rest of the race. No penalty, I didn't have to do another one...

Patrick Kulinski
22-03-2016, 17:26
As far as I am concerened I am not looking for that kind of information about telling me that there is a car left or right to me.
No problem... simply say "Don't spot" and you will not get any spotter calls. If then you'll say "Leave me alone" you won't hear a word at all until you request information.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 17:27
But I don't understand the part with the mandatory pit stop issue not being a bug.. WHY do I have to wait until my race engineer is calling me in for the mandatory pitstop? Even when it clearly does not make ANY sense and EVERYBODY else (AI-cars themselves) are pulling in for changing tyres one lap earlier due to weather situation?! Then I still have to wait until my (stupid) race engineer is calling me in - regardless if I have had a pitstop already?!) That does not make any sensee, but justifying a bug in the system?!
You have to pit during the pitstop window. Any pitstop made outside of the window doesn't count. Lots of IRL racing series have similar rules. I'm not sure why this is hard to understand.

ARNAGEist
22-03-2016, 18:38
Yea the ingame race engineer is pretty useless. Try the crew chief app! Found here
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38922-Crew-Chief-an-alternative-race-engineer-for-console-amp-PC

Thanks for the recommendation, I tried this today and it really changes the pit to car experience :D. to make it perfect I would only ask for Leena Gade or H from Audi sport to do the voices (not that the default is bad though)

FS7
22-03-2016, 18:52
It would be great to have the option to set engineer speech to come through the TV speakers instead of the DS4 speakers, other games have this option, it makes no sense not to have this option in PCars.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 21:26
I did the same once and got disqualified at the end of the race because of not respecting the mandatory pit stop. Despite the fact I did one..

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 21:27
I did the same once and got disqualified at the end of the race because of not respecting the mandatory pit stop. Despite the fact I did one..
But you didn't do it within the pitstop window.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 21:29
Haha, I wilil try that, but I really really doubt that it will work.. Why? Because I don't have a Mic on my PC! : )

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 21:30
Haha, I wilil try that, but I really really doubt that it will work.. Why? Because I don't have a Mic on my PC! : )

You can turn off the spotter in the configuration also.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 21:37
And I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand the way the mandatory pitstop window is presented does not make any sense and is ruinning the whole race sometimes?!

I'll try once more, with an example:
During one race rain starts in the fourth lap. Everbody starts with slicks. After fourth lap all AI cars go into pitstop to change to rain tyres. I would like to
do the same - as it is the only thing to do in this situation. But my "smart Race Engineer" or whoeveer is in charge to present the mandatory pitstop window to me thinks differently and keeps me going another lap with slicks in rain. This lap is going to be super slow. Meanwhile the AI cars catch up with their new Rain tires. This disadvantage can not be cought up again during the rest of the race if level is even.

Why does the AI cars know when to change tyres, but I do not get the mandatory pitstop sign to do so?! And if I change on my request - that's possible - but later on I have to do another mandatory pitstop - but that might not be necessary from the racing point of perspective.

So two options:
1. Either allow my to do the mandatory pitsstop on my request - why not call it the mandatory pitstop when I request it?!
2. Make the whoever is deciding to present the mandatory pitstop sign when it actually makes sense!

understandable?

It is not about the rule - this is perfectly fine. It is the way it is implemented which is buggy.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 21:45
And I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand the way the mandatory pitstop window is presented does not make any sense and is ruinning the whole race sometimes?!
Well it makes sense to everybody else.


I'll try once more, with an example:
During one race rain starts in the fourth lap. Everbody starts with slicks. After fourth lap all AI cars go into pitstop to change to rain tyres. I would like to
do the same - as it is the only thing to do in this situation. But my "smart Race Engineer" or whoeveer is in charge to present the mandatory pitstop window to me thinks differently and keeps me going another lap with slicks in rain. This lap is going to be super slow. Meanwhile the AI cars catch up with their new Rain tires. This disadvantage can not be cought up again during the rest of the race if level is even.
So then pit for rain tires when the AI do. What's so hard about that? You can pit anytime you want.



Why does the AI cars know when to change tyres, but I do not get the mandatory pitstop sign to do so?! And if I change on my request - that's possible - but later on I have to do another mandatory pitstop - but that might not be necessary from the racing point of perspective.
The race engineer will not tell you to pit to change to rain tires. You will only get the mandatory pit sign when the pit window opens.


So two options:
1. Either allow my to do the mandatory pitsstop on my request - why not call it the mandatory pitstop when I request it?!
Because you have to wait for the pit window to open.

2. Make the whoever is deciding to present the mandatory pitstop sign when it actually makes sense!
It makes sense for him to tell you that the pit window is open when the pit window opens and not before that.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 21:49
And "Mr. Schnizz58" is everybody else!? Glad to have such an holistic entity among us!

Rambo_Commando
22-03-2016, 21:51
Ok. So if you follow the AI and pit for wets or inters on lap 5 are you saying that you have to make another pit stop while the AI doesn't?

Unscheduled pit stop, for damage or to change compounds, is not the same as a mandatory pit stop.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 21:57
And "Mr. Schnizz58" is everybody else!? Glad to have such an holistic entity among us!
Now that's more like it!

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 21:59
I requested a pitstop also in round four when the rain started and went in together with all the AI cars (I was leading). By then I did not "receive" the mandatory pitstop sign - so only my request. I changed tyres with everybody else. In round 5 I then got the mandatory pitstop sign which I ignored as it was easy to finish the rest of the race. I think it was 7 laps. Then I got disqualified for not having done the mandatory pitstop. So yes, I'd have had to make a second pitstop just for the sake of fullfilling the mandatory pitstop sign having two pitstops instead of one.

Next time I waited for round 5, went a lap in rain on slicks spinning around just to wait for the mandatory pitstop sign in round 5 when all the AI cars went on Rain tyres meanwhile. This disadvantage can not be overcome later on and is simply due to a simple bug in dealing with the mandatory pitstop system.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 22:01
Now that's more like it!

you are welcome.

and now shut up and let the grownups do the talking..

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 22:04
I requested a pitstop also in round four when the rain started and went in together with all the AI cars (I was leading). By then I did not "receive" the mandatory pitstop sign - so only my request. I changed tyres with everybody else. In round 5 I then got the mandatory pitstop sign which I ignored as it was easy to finish the rest of the race. I think it was 7 laps. Then I got disqualified for not having done the mandatory pitstop. So yes, I'd have had to make a second pitstop just for the sake of fullfilling the mandatory pitstop sign having two pitstops instead of one.
Yep, that's how it works. The AI should have pitted a second time too. If they didn't then that is a bug for sure.


Next time I waited for round 5, went a lap in rain on slicks spinning around just to wait for the mandatory pitstop sign in round 5 when all the AI cars went on Rain tyres meanwhile. This disadvantage can not be overcome later on and is simply due to a simple bug in dealing with the mandatory pitstop system.
This however is not a bug. You pitted before the window opened and therefore it doesn't count for your mandatory pitstop.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 22:09
Yep, that's how it works. The AI should have pitted a second time too. If they didn't then that is a bug for sure.


This however is not a bug. You pitted before the window opened and therefore it doesn't count for your mandatory pitstop.

Yes we know. But this does not make any sense in some situations - as described, is completely unrealistic and ruins the whole race! That's the point.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 22:10
Yes we know. But this does not make any sense in some situations - as described, is completely unrealistic and ruins the whole race! That's the point.
It's the same as real racing series so how is it unrealistic?

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 22:18
Because in real racing pitstop would keep the car/driver on the track on purpose for another lap in heavy rain on slicks?! Great. I see your competence.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 22:20
Dude, I'm trying to help you so lighten up with the insults.

Because in real racing there is a pit window in some series (not all). If you pit outside the window it doesn't count as a mandatory pitstop.

cornishbrooksy
22-03-2016, 22:27
you are welcome.

and now shut up and let the grownups do the talking..

Calm down, please don't bring that attitude here.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 23:14
I am sorry.. Sometimes I find it hard not to reply on the level somebody talks to me.

I try to discuss a problem and try to help making the game better - in my spare time - and some unnecessary, stupid discussions are getting on my nerves, leading to this. But you are right, shouldn't go that way.

Bernhard
22-03-2016, 23:16
ok, but if you read my example - why do ALL AI cars change, but I am the only one not allowed?! Does that happen in real life too?! Please compare apple with apple.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 23:42
ok, but if you read my example - why do ALL AI cars change, but I am the only one not allowed?! Does that happen in real life too?! Please compare apple with apple.
You are allowed to pit any time you want to. But the only one that counts for the mandatory pitstop is the one done in the pitstop window. So what you should do in the scenario you described is to pit when it starts raining and then pit again during the window. I would recommend waiting as long as possible before pitting the second time. This is because if the rain stops you'll need to get off the rain tires and get back on slicks. So if you wait as long as you can, you'll avoid the possibility of a third pitstop.

moustace
22-03-2016, 23:53
You will only get the mandatory pit sign when the pit window opens.

Where does it say before the race starts when the pit window is?

Also, I've made a few pit requests where I've entered the pits only to be told that my teammate is pitting and then you just have to drive through and pit on the next lap instead. This should be changed in one of the following ways:
i) Your engineer tells you before you enter the pits that the pit box is occupied, you wait and drive another lap.
ii) You wait in the pits behind your teammate until the pitbox is clear.
iii) You don't have a teammate.

Schnizz58
22-03-2016, 23:59
Where does it say before the race starts when the pit window is?
Nowhere that I know of. Also the window never closes. Once open, it's open for the rest of the race.



Also, I've made a few pit requests where I've entered the pits only to be told that my teammate is pitting and then you just have to drive through and pit on the next lap instead. This should be changed in one of the following ways:
i) Your engineer tells you before you enter the pits that the pit box is occupied, you wait and drive another lap.
ii) You wait in the pits behind your teammate until the pitbox is clear.
iii) You don't have a teammate.
Option 1 is what's supposed to happen. If you request the pitstop, you should get a popup that says "Pit box occupied", or something similar. If you don't request it, you're taking your chances.

Rambo_Commando
23-03-2016, 02:14
ok, but if you read my example - why do ALL AI cars change, but I am the only one not allowed?! Does that happen in real life too?! Please compare apple with apple.

I still find it hard to follow what you're saying. What Schnizz is telling you is correct. To me it sounds like you made a bad decision with your pit strategy or you're simply not understanding the mandatory pit stop rule. Here's what I would have done in your race.
1-Race starts in dry conditions.
2- Starts to rain on lap 4.
3- I would pit on lap 5-7 depending on my traction. The AI will also pit for wets. You can follow the AI into the pits but be mindful of your teammates position.
4- Mandatory pit sign comes up. Now you have to use strategy here as it might cost you an extra stop. If the weather looks like it's clearing up then stay out but don't sacrifice lap times. If you need to pit then pit. If you don't see droplets of rain on your screen you need to pit for slicks. From your example, you are sacrificing your lap times and the AI are catching you. That's a bad strategy. You should know what lap times you're capable of with dry tires and with wets. If your times are falling off then change your tires.
5- If it's still raining and you get the mandatory pit in sign then change to a new set of wets.
6- Should the weather start clearing up after your mandatory stop you will have to make an unscheduled stop to change to slicks. You will not get a pit in pop up nor will your race engineer tell you to pit. You need to make this call on your own.

The race engineer is not dynamic. He is just a voice to add to the immersion so don't knock on him. Lol.

Bernhard
23-03-2016, 03:22
If you would have read what I wrote..
I did exactly what you suggested - actually I tried both strategies - both explained in length.

Maybe the situation is special because it was in a race of 30% of length - I also wrote that the race was about 7-9 laps! But still - the initial problem - I call it bug - remains. Namely that all the AI cars were able to change during first rain lap (without a second pitstop later on), where else I could not what makes you loose the race without standing a chance of winning.

Schnizz58
23-03-2016, 03:40
If you would have read what I wrote..
I did exactly what you suggested - actually I tried both strategies - both explained in length.

Maybe the situation is special because it was in a race of 30% of length - I also wrote that the race was about 7-9 laps! But still - the initial problem - I call it bug - remains. Namely that all the AI cars were able to change during first rain lap (without a second pitstop later on), where else I could not what makes you loose the race without standing a chance of winning.
As I said earlier, this is a bug.

Dakpilot
23-03-2016, 06:19
In a real race series, when if it rains and the race is declared Wet, does the mandatory pit stop window/situation not change?

It would seem that this logic is not programmed in to the game design, hence 'bug'

Cheers Dakpilot

Mahjik
23-03-2016, 12:31
It would seem that this logic is not programmed in to the game design, hence 'bug'


Not discussing the "declared wet" scenario, but just discussing the definition of a "bug". A bug is when something is not working as implemented. i.e., the programmer wanted it to to do X, but it's doing Y instead because of an error. Not implementing something therefore is impossible to be a "bug". If it's not implemented, it cannot be behaving in error.

FS7
23-03-2016, 12:41
Also, I've made a few pit requests where I've entered the pits only to be told that my teammate is pitting and then you just have to drive through and pit on the next lap instead. This should be changed in one of the following ways:
i) Your engineer tells you before you enter the pits that the pit box is occupied, you wait and drive another lap.
ii) You wait in the pits behind your teammate until the pitbox is clear.
iii) You don't have a teammate.
This is something that needs to be fixed asap.
There was this race where it started raining, I requested a pitstop, a couple of turns before I got the pit entry I got a message that box was occupied, I didn't know about the pitstop bug, I entered the pits expecting to wait behind my teammate like it happens in real life, my car simply went through the pits without stopping and I had to do an entire lap on slicks in heavy rain and lost the race.
This should be fixed in a future patch to allow players to wait behind their teammate in the pits just like it happens in real life.

Schnizz58
23-03-2016, 13:34
Not discussing the "declared wet" scenario, but just discussing the definition of a "bug". A bug is when something is not working as implemented. i.e., the programmer wanted it to to do X, but it's doing Y instead because of an error. Not implementing something therefore is impossible to be a "bug". If it's not implemented, it cannot be behaving in error.
I disagree a little bit but I don't want to drag this down into a semantic argument. I would consider a bug as something that is not working as designed. So if the design called for the implementation of a certain feature but that feature was missing, then that is a bug. There can be bugs in different levels of the process. There are bugs in requirements, there are bugs in design and there are bugs in implementation. In this case, I agree that the lack of wet rules is not a bug because SMS probably didn't plan on having wet rules apply. I.e., it wasn't a requirement.

However back to Bernhard's issue, I believe that is in fact a bug because the AI should play by the same rules as the player. They should be forced to pit during the pit window.

Mahjik
23-03-2016, 13:48
I disagree a little bit but I don't want to drag this down into a semantic argument. I would consider a bug as something that is not working as designed. So if the design called for the implementation of a certain feature but that feature was missing, then that is a bug.

Yes, there can be a "bug" in requirements (and other parts of the development process), but that's a slippery slope. You cannot fault people for not knowing what they didn't know. However, the point is still the same that "not implementing a feature is not a software bug". i.e. not having DRS zones on the tracks is not a "bug".

Schnizz58
23-03-2016, 13:50
However, the point is still the same that "not implementing a feature is not a software bug".
It may or may not be depending on the design. However I think we're largely in agreement here.

Dakpilot
23-03-2016, 13:54
Not discussing the "declared wet" scenario, but just discussing the definition of a "bug". A bug is when something is not working as implemented. i.e., the programmer wanted it to to do X, but it's doing Y instead because of an error. Not implementing something therefore is impossible to be a "bug". If it's not implemented, it cannot be behaving in error.

What you are saying is what I was trying to say, which is why I said 'bug' meaning assumed/supposed bug, not bug, meaning definitive bug.

I need to be clearer with my poor ' ' punctuation/use of parenthesis in my posts

Cheers Dakpilot

Mascot
23-03-2016, 14:03
It would be great to have the option to set engineer speech to come through the TV speakers instead of the DS4 speakers, other games have this option, it makes no sense not to have this option in PCars.

Know what's even better? Having the engineer come through a headset or earpiece (just like in real life), AND being able to ask him spoken questions (just like in most real motorsports). Crew Chief gives you all of this and more. Seriously, it makes the in-game race engineer look very silly indeed.

Do it. You won't regret it.