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View Full Version : Fastest laps on totally worn tires - Whiski, Tango, Foxtrot?!



NemethR
24-03-2016, 20:17
Seriously, guys, the tire modell is a joke at this moment.

(And then we get Patch 10....)

I was doing 15 laps on totally worn tires, (totally grey) and was getting faster, and faster with them.
230370
Normally I should get slower, and slower, and get a puncture.
Project cars is totally the opposite.

Also on another race, tires are getting totally overheating (Clio Race, Catalunya), but no impact on laptime, or performance.

Why is there no impact on laptime/performance at all with worn/overheating tires?

Panopticism
24-03-2016, 20:22
I've noticed before with cars in some classes that sometimes the graphic overlay can suggest extreme levels of tire wear, but there is no change in handling unless the tires are getting hot.

I think I've only seen this in some classes where the tires aren't pre-warmed.

kevin kirk
24-03-2016, 20:24
I thought totally grey wasn't the end of the tires life. Wasn't it something like 40 percent?

cluck
24-03-2016, 20:26
I thought totally grey wasn't the end of the tires life. Wasn't it something like 40 percent?correct :)

t0daY
24-03-2016, 20:33
correct :)

Still BlueMonkey did race 50 laps on the Hard compound and they lasted and he went faster by the end of the race. Something is not working here :/

cluck
24-03-2016, 20:38
Still BlueMonkey did race 50 laps on the Hard compound and they lasted and he went faster by the end of the race. Something is not working here :/Indeed, something doesn't feel right with this tyre on this track - the hard is quicker than the medium, which is also quicker than the soft.

What we shouldn't do, without further testing, is simply label "the tire modell is a joke at this moment".

I have not experienced this with any other tyre on any other car so far. With the GT3 tyres, for instance, there is a noticeable drop-off as the tyre gets worn down.

NemethR
24-03-2016, 20:42
Try the Clios.

Overheating tires have no effect on driving - Same as with the KTM X-Bow, we raced recently.

Shinzah
24-03-2016, 20:57
NASCAR races repeatedly end with the drivers setting the fastest laps at the end of a race on very worn tires. Why is this some kind of massive surprise?

havocc
24-03-2016, 20:59
NASCAR races repeatedly end with the drivers setting the fastest laps at the end of a race on very worn tires. Why is this some kind of massive surprise?

Empty tank

Rambo_Commando
24-03-2016, 22:00
Indeed, something doesn't feel right with this tyre on this track - the hard is quicker than the medium, which is also quicker than the soft.

What we shouldn't do, without further testing, is simply label "the tire modell is a joke at this moment".

I have not experienced this with any other tyre on any other car so far. With the GT3 tyres, for instance, there is a noticeable drop-off as the tyre gets worn down.

This happens in Formula Rookie as well. All four tires are grey but lap times keep dropping. I race with tire wear x7 in my career. The AI will pit for tires every race but I can finish the race easily without pitting. Something is definitely wrong with the tire wear rate/graphics.

cluck
24-03-2016, 22:10
The thing is, it might simply be that this is what the tyre is like in real life. I have no frame of reference, I don't follow stock car racing at all and have no idea if they do indeed run a race this length on a single set of tyres and if their times are consistent over the course of that race. It was so out of kilter with our experiences of other cars in the game that it struck us as odd. However, leaping to the conclusion that "the tyre model is a joke" is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Jan Studenski
24-03-2016, 22:20
Whats imo a bigger problem is, that on Willow Springs the Soft Tires are slower than the mediums and those are slower than the Hards: HARDS > MEDIUMS > SOFTS - and the difference is a lot (the soft is by far the slowest) (Ford Fusion Stock Car) - with the softs i managed to do: 1:12s - with the mediums: 1:10s - with the hards: 1:09s


Still BlueMonkey did race 50 laps on the Hard compound and they lasted and he went faster by the end of the race. Something is not working here :/

Just to clarify: At that point the wear was like this: Compound Hard: FL: 93.2% - RL: 58.2% - FR: 45.9% - RR: 27.9% --- after 90% FR wear ingame showed me the pitboard with the note "Tires" (This was around Lap 48)

I have full telemetrie (Profiler) of this race - if someone is interested i will give it

kevin kirk
24-03-2016, 22:51
I really suggest you guys not read so much into the games tire wear using the nascar car. The whole purpose to the way the car is built is to be able to be the fastest it can be well into a long run. If this car is indeed like the real nascar car, then the car is designed around tire wear and tire pressure build up to be prefect at the right time with half tank or less with the purpose to be fastest later in the run. Use another car to test the games long run tire wear speed because this car did exactly what it was suppose to do.

cluck
24-03-2016, 23:09
I really suggest you guys not read so much into the games tire wear using the nascar car. The whole purpose to the way the car is built is to be able to be the fastest it can be well into a long run. If this car is indeed like the real nascar car, then the car is designed around tire wear and tire pressure build up to be prefect at the right time with half tank or less with the purpose to be fastest later in the run. Use another car to test the games long run tire wear speed because this car did exactly what it was suppose to do.It wasn't a test, it was just something that was noticed during the league race that was run tonight - it was different to what we've experienced with other cars. As I've been at pains to point out, I have no idea what the real car is like so it might well be that this is expected behaviour (as has been suggested to me elsewhere) and that the tyre properties are also working as intended. It's a big, heavy, brute of a car and it could simply be that it is too much for the soft tyres. Maybe the softs need much higher pressures to cope. These are all things that I don't know because nobody actually tested that.

Personally, I'm a little disappointed in the way this thread was started. It would have made far more sense to report what we saw and ask if it was normal behaviour for this car. That's a far more sensible approach and likely to yield answers from those with deep knowledge of stock car racing :).

LukeC
24-03-2016, 23:09
It could be that there is something wrong with regard to tyre modelling with certain car/track combinations, although I wouldn't go so far as to say that the tyre model is rubbish without knowing precisely how grip levels are calculated and simulated. I know that tyres can sometimes behave strangely. A good example was Sebastien Vettel at Spa last year, when he suffered a massive blow out because he attempted to finish the race without stopping a second time. As I understand that situation, the tyres were very worn out at the end but there was no indication that this was the case because he was still lapping consistently within one second of his fastest lap.

LukeC
24-03-2016, 23:12
Does anybody know if it's actually possible to lap faster on slightly worn tyres or harder tyres on tracks with fast sweeping corners due to the fact that the car slides in a more controllable fashion without scrubbing off as much speed?

I seem to remember in F1 there were a few situations where the harder compound tyres actually delivered quicker lap times than the super softs.

Shinzah
24-03-2016, 23:29
Empty tank

Not even remotely true. In fact, teams will often pit for fuel and NOT tires at the end of the race for more rear ballast because the rear being too light scrubs off more speed than the weight loss advantage gain through a combination of the rear of the car moving more in addition to the rear suspension pushing the rear spoiler farther into the airstream created by the car.

I'm really not going to get into this fight though. I have the flu and a ton of things to get done this week.

The simplest and most likely explanation is that people are under-inflating the tires and they aren't reaching the peak temperature/slip envelope until the end of the race, and under-inflating the mediums and softs will simply just turn them into soup.

Jan Studenski
25-03-2016, 00:18
Except for the gearing we used default setup ...

Edit: *some of us

TexasTyme214
25-03-2016, 01:16
The tire wear meter tends to show only the tread level on the tire. Once the tread is depleted (100% tread wear, 50% total tire wear), the tire will start to fall off in pace due to the lower temperature. You may be speeding up over time due to the grip increasing on track and/or fuel load constantly decreasing. But I personally would like to see a larger drop off in pace before the tread is actually depleted.

Shinzah
25-03-2016, 01:18
With no effort to set the car up for optimum running, and maybe with little knowledge of the equipment how can any adverse behaviour come as any shock?

Many of the default setups are not optimized for *any* track, and several of them are not going to perform well across multiple iterations.

I've been ill so I haven't had the time to run the test laps I've wanted to in the Fusion, but I will be getting to it as soon as I stop expelling bodily fluids and can lift my wheel. I'd be really adverse to stating it being "weird" or "a problem" or "a bug" without even making a cursory effort to test the vehicle in optimal conditions, though.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 02:00
With no effort to set the car up for optimum running, and maybe with little knowledge of the equipment how can any adverse behaviour come as any shock?

Many of the default setups are not optimized for *any* track, and several of them are not going to perform well across multiple iterations.

I've been ill so I haven't had the time to run the test laps I've wanted to in the Fusion, but I will be getting to it as soon as I stop expelling bodily fluids and can lift my wheel. I'd be really adverse to stating it being "weird" or "a problem" or "a bug" without even making a cursory effort to test the vehicle in optimal conditions, though.

Sorry but thats non sense. We did a 50 lap race at Willow Springs. The track is literally eating tires that is known. The Hard Compounds are the fastest tires and also can last for 50 laps with a consistent laptime over the whole distance? I do not need knowledge about setups or whatever to tell you that is super weird and unexpected.

That they last may the distance okay. But that they are faster than the mediums and softs, plus the fact that the pace did not drop, even went faster in the end is just random. I did tweak couple things and I do have (in my opinion) enough knowledge to know what slider can cause which effect. So in my opinion your argument is completly invalid.

Shinzah
25-03-2016, 02:44
Sorry but thats non sense. We did a 50 lap race at Willow Springs. The track is literally eating tires that is known. The Hard Compounds are the fastest tires and also can last for 50 laps with a consistent laptime over the whole distance? I do not need knowledge about setups or whatever to tell you that is super weird and unexpected.

That they last may the distance okay. But that they are faster than the mediums and softs, plus the fact that the pace did not drop, even went faster in the end is just random. I did tweak couple things and I do have (in my opinion) enough knowledge to know what slider can cause which effect. So in my opinion your argument is completly invalid.

In my opinion, you're invalid and this whole ridiculous thread is invalid.

Too bad neither of our "opinions" of each other matter.

You have offered literally zero data to back up your claims. All you have done is bitch about some minor gripe you can't even back up without resorting to character assassination and confirmation bias.

I'm out. I didn't want to get involved, and I did, and I now regret my decision.

NemethR
25-03-2016, 05:30
In my opinion, you're invalid and this whole ridiculous thread is invalid.

Too bad neither of our "opinions" of each other matter.

You have offered literally zero data to back up your claims. All you have done is bitch about some minor gripe you can't even back up without resorting to character assassination and confirmation bias.

I'm out. I didn't want to get involved, and I did, and I now regret my decision.

Seriously you have problems.

Well, he has 15 people to back it up.
All have experienced the same, all had different setups, even if not totally tailored to the track, different driving styles, and different amount of fuel, and pit stop strategy.

I noticed this a lot of times now, when the tires are grey (worn out), there is no consequence in continuing the race, you are not getting slower, and not getting a puncture.
Same goes for overheating tires.
And thing is, when the game was released, this worked much better.

But fact is, it is you who always points fingers at others, how wrong they are, there is after all only your truth, I noticed this a lot of times already, you and a few others here think everyone is a complete idiot.

theothermexico
25-03-2016, 05:46
Just to add my two cents.
Take the car and track combinations where it's the most noticeable. Do 50 laps on softs, then mediums, then hards. May as well add wets in to check them too. Save the replays and hold onto your data for each one. Analyse your tyre wear, throttle/brake usage, steering, and g forces.
Take note of your fastest 5 laps and which lap they happen on.
Now compare the fastest laps for each tyre along with the data. Also your first flying lap and your last.
This will show if these circuits require a slightly loose driving style or if it is indeed a bug of sorts.

And above all else it will help your laptimes

NemethR
25-03-2016, 05:52
Just to add my two cents.
Take the car and track combinations where it's the most noticeable. Do 50 laps on softs, then mediums, then hards. May as well add wets in to check them too. Save the replays and hold onto your data for each one. Analyse your tyre wear, throttle/brake usage, steering, and g forces.
Take note of your fastest 5 laps and which lap they happen on.
Now compare the fastest laps for each tyre along with the data. Also your first flying lap and your last.
This will show if these circuits require a slightly loose driving style or if it is indeed a bug of sorts.

And above all else it will help your laptimes

We have a life too, you know... :)

theothermexico
25-03-2016, 06:01
We have a life too, you know... :)

Haha I know!

But we all love to procrastinate, and avoid doing what needs to be done, this will write off at least half a day. Or do one set of tyres a day, and spread it out over a week

Sankyo
25-03-2016, 07:47
The discussion is very valid, but the approach of some here leaves a lot to be desired (personal attacks, jumping to (negative) conclusions, unnecessary rude wording etc.).

Thomas Sikora
25-03-2016, 07:56
Also on another race, tires are getting totally overheating (Clio Race, Catalunya), but no impact on laptime, or performance.

Why is there no impact on laptime/performance at all with worn/overheating tires?

i don't try the ford nescar,
but i know it from our GT3 evetns, there like in Bathurst or Silverstone i noticed more and more slippy tires sice tirewear of >50%. I think in few cars the wear<=>performance works ok, but on other hand it seems that on few others not realy.

Edit: maybe we should clear write which car class we noticed what...
IMO
GT3, GTE & GT4 Cars works ok,
Also i think also the Groupe 5( Capri /BMW) are ok, that was my feeling in Monza.
On other cars i don't drive longruns

the-D-
25-03-2016, 08:12
Seriously you have problems.

Well, he has 15 people to back it up.
All have experienced the same, all had different setups, even if not totally tailored to the track, different driving styles, and different amount of fuel, and pit stop strategy.

I noticed this a lot of times now, when the tires are grey (worn out), there is no consequence in continuing the race, you are not getting slower, and not getting a puncture.
Same goes for overheating tires.
And thing is, when the game was released, this worked much better.

But fact is, it is you who always points fingers at others, how wrong they are, there is after all only your truth, I noticed this a lot of times already, you and a few others here think everyone is a complete idiot.

I try to imagine this type of guy in a pub, with the attitude that is displayed time and again on this forum, it would be a blood bath,...real world social interaction kept to a minimum, says the doctor/psycho therapist/day carer lol

(Undeniable super self importance is not a good thing)

Patrick Kulinski
25-03-2016, 08:43
Remembering a GT3 race, what I can add is that you can have your tyre on your car for so long that they're FUBAR, meaning you get vibrations of all sorts on the straights. But up to this point, I have failed to produce a puncture whatsoever, and I also never heard anyone compaining about one, either after a crash or after abusive use. This could really be a point to put on the clipboard.

Another thing I remember now is that I had a couple of friends here and we were hoplapping in the Superkart. One of them had an edged style, torturing his tyres in every corner, but with his tyres well beyond 50% of indicated wear he was able to run consistent (and PB!) times. It didn't matter if he had fresh rubber or not, he kept pounding the track with remarkable consistency. I took over his kart (Esc, sit down on the chair, press "continue") and I hardly managed to keep that b*tch on the track (and did not have a chance to match his times). Reading this thread it feels like I'm not agressive enough to drive worn tyres... maybe because their temps dropped? Anyway, with new tyres I crushed his best time by almost a second (on a 40s lap) and from this point on, my wear progressed much slower. But after five or six laps I noticed that my times were dropping tenth by tenth.

TL,DR: Tyre temps should really be considered when discussing this issue.

stangnutlx
25-03-2016, 08:46
That and the better than you attitude in every post along with the condescending attitude toward all who he doesn't agree with.


I try to imagine this type of guy in a pub, with the attitude that is displayed time and again on this forum, it would be a blood bath,...real world social interaction kept to a minimum, says the doctor/psycho therapist/day carer lol

(Undeniable super self importance is not a good thing)

cluck
25-03-2016, 09:24
That and the better than you attitude in every post along with the condescending attitude toward all who he doesn't agree with.Can we stick to discussing whether or not what our league encountered last night was 'expected behaviour for this car' or whether further testing needs to be done to see if there is a general problem with the Ford Fusion tyres at other tracks, rather than descending into personal attacks. This goes for everybody, not just you.

What I would suggest is two things :-

1) Wait for either Casey Ringley or, failing that, somebody (other than Shinzah - sorry!) who has very good knowledge of stock car racing to see this thread and comment on the real-life behaviour of these cars. Because all we have right now are a bunch of league racers seeing something unusual and wondering if it is correct or not

and/or

2) Do more testing. Yes, Nemeth, we do have lives to lead but somebody has to put in some work to see if this is expected or anomalous behaviour. It is like seeing a person wearing a green pair of jeans pulling a funny face and jumping to the conclusion that everybody that wears green jeans must have rubber faces. It is on us to prove otherwise.

havocc
25-03-2016, 09:32
What we could do is: any1 who wants to contribute picks a track he knows well and runs a full tank on soft-mediums-hard tyres on a fixed in-game day of the year with default setup and post telemetry log

t0daY
25-03-2016, 11:20
In my opinion, you're invalid and this whole ridiculous thread is invalid.

Too bad neither of our "opinions" of each other matter.

You have offered literally zero data to back up your claims. All you have done is bitch about some minor gripe you can't even back up without resorting to character assassination and confirmation bias.

I'm out. I didn't want to get involved, and I did, and I now regret my decision.

Blue Monkey offered couple posts before his data from the profiler. Also I have 15 other people who raced with me who can back this up.

I dunno why you are jumping into this thread with literally zero knowledge what happened and just try to talk and get some attention. Seriously just stay out of the conversation if you have nothing better to do then telling 15 people they have no idea about setups and/or that we have no data or backups.

Mahjik
25-03-2016, 12:51
Does anybody know if it's actually possible to lap faster on slightly worn tyres or harder tyres on tracks with fast sweeping corners due to the fact that the car slides in a more controllable fashion without scrubbing off as much speed?

I seem to remember in F1 there were a few situations where the harder compound tyres actually delivered quicker lap times than the super softs.

There are times when a harder tire will produce faster laps in real life. Mainly it comes down to heat in the tires. If the ambient/track temp is hot, and the track uses tires pretty hard, softer tires will not be effective (at least for not more than a single lap). However, there are just too many variables in general to say "soft tires will always be faster".

Schnizz58
25-03-2016, 13:14
The track is literally eating tires
Can I get a screenshot of this?

havocc
25-03-2016, 13:36
Can I get a screenshot of this?

Her you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiy4RCEj2U4

t0daY
25-03-2016, 13:47
Can I get a screenshot of this?

Take any car on this track, look what happens to your left tires. Its part of the track geometry and how it is build... Cause of the very fast left turns, only 1 little straight for the tires to calm down and the short distance causes those high wear on the left hand side of your car.

Edit: Also where the track is build is important. Desert which means very high ambient temps, track temps are also high which is also a factor for the higher tire wear.

poirqc
25-03-2016, 13:50
Her you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiy4RCEj2U4

I didn't needed that! But somehow, i kept watching the video. Shame on you. Or should i say shame on me! :D

Schnizz58
25-03-2016, 13:55
Take any car on this track, look what happens to your left tires. Its part of the track geometry and how it is build... Cause of the very fast left turns, only 1 little straight for the tires to calm down and the short distance causes those high wear on the left hand side of your car.

Edit: Also where the track is build is important. Desert which means very high ambient temps, track temps are also high which is also a factor for the higher tire wear.
You misunderstood. I want to see the track literally eating tires.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 13:57
You misunderstood. I want to see the track literally eating tires.

doh :D :D :D

Shinzah
25-03-2016, 14:02
Blue Monkey offered couple posts before his data from the profiler. Also I have 15 other people who raced with me who can back this up.

15 people running on default setup is almost entirely useless.



I dunno why you are jumping into this thread with literally zero knowledge what happened and just try to talk and get some attention. Seriously just stay out of the conversation if you have nothing better to do then telling 15 people they have no idea about setups and/or that we have no data or backups.

I offered two very good reasons why this could happen and was attacked by you. Fuck you, and fuck your league of idiots who make the same thread with a different face every five minutes over stupid nonsense.

I'll take my vacation now, Remco.

https://media.giphy.com/media/wXtXKz149BxfO/giphy.gif


Edit:

Seriously you have problems.


Yes I do. I tend to keep making posts explaining a possible outcome to people who keep making posts about how the game has a bug because it did something weird and getting treated like shit over it.
Doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 14:17
15 people running on default setup is almost entirely useless.



I offered two very good reasons why this could happen and was attacked by you. Fuck you, and fuck your league of idiots who make the same thread with a different face every five minutes over stupid nonsense.

I'll take my vacation now, Remco.


Edit:


Yes I do. I tend to keep making posts explaining a possible outcome to people who keep making posts about how the game has a bug because it did something weird and getting treated like shit over it.
Doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity.

No one did drive on default. Everybody made his tweaks. I dunno how you come to the conclusion 15 people were running default. Just not true...

And thanks for letting me now how childish you are. I never attacked you personally with words like "fuck you" or whatever. I was trying to explain the situation nothing more. But thanks for your comment :)

Shinzah
25-03-2016, 14:19
No one did drive on default. Everybody made his tweaks. I dunno how you come to the conclusion 15 people were running default. Just not true...

I was responding to this:


Except for the gearing we used default setup ...

I apologize if it's not true, but that's what was presented to me.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 14:22
I was responding to this:



I apologize if it's not true, but that's what was presented to me.

He used default setup except of gearing. That is a typo which can happen from time to time. I had a complete own setup with completly own damper settings and whatever. But I am done talking to you.

Telling me to fuck off and my entire league is enough. Do not know who you think you are to be honest. Just leave this thread, my idiotic league will sort this out alone.

Shinzah
25-03-2016, 14:23
Yeah, the W and the H and I are like, right beside each other.

Fair enough. I'm probably going on vacation anyway.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 14:26
Lets shut this thread down. I will try stuff and will pass the info directly to Bruno or Elmo. No need for further discussions, harrasments or whatever in my opinion.

Default
25-03-2016, 14:28
Classic case of bug shown, fanboys defend the game with their life, arguments, people get banned, thread closed. Common in these forums.

Shinzah
25-03-2016, 14:30
Lets shut this thread down. I will try stuff and will pass the info directly to Bruno or Elmo. No need for further discussions, harrasments or whatever in my opinion.

I really don't understand why it was necessary in the first place if you could just do this course of action, it'd really be better for everyone

I agree, anyway, fwiw.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 14:32
I really don't understand why it was necessary in the first place if you could just do this course of action, it'd really be better for everyone

I agree, anyway, fwiw.

I did not open the thread mate. I just tried to support it because it seems to be weird. And I am the last person who is making this game bad in any direction. You just jumped in, talked random stuff, then felt attacked and started harrasing me and the league I am part of.

You heated this here up with your comments and nobody else. And its up to everybody to open a thread or not. Thats the sense of a forum.

Sankyo
25-03-2016, 14:33
Enough now please.
The issue is important enough to deserve some attention. No need to ruin it with over-emotional argumenting.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 14:34
Enough now please.

If he is getting his vacation for saying "fuck you" and "fuck your league" sure. Or will that be tolerated? Saw people with less beeing banned to be honest...

beetes_juice
25-03-2016, 14:34
Before it gets shut down this might be a nice read while testing the NASCAR tires: http://www.jayski.com/news/pages/story/_/page/Goodyear-News-Tire-Testing

Keep reading "fall-off after 15-20 laps" in the article. Someone else may be able to pick up on something from this article.

*really hard to find NASCAR/tire/race data. F1 race results normally give what lap the fastest race lap was set on. Can't find anything like that on NASCAR race results.

Sankyo
25-03-2016, 14:35
If he is getting his vacation for saying "fuck you" and "fuck your league" sure. Or will that be tolerated? Saw people with less beeing banned to be honest...
It is not tolerated.

t0daY
25-03-2016, 14:37
Before it gets shut down this might be a nice read while testing the NASCAR tires: http://www.jayski.com/news/pages/story/_/page/Goodyear-News-Tire-Testing

Keep reading "fall-off after 15-20 laps" in the article. Someone else may be able to pick up on something from this article.

*really hard to find NASCAR/tire/race data. F1 race results normally give what lap the fastest race lap was set on. Can't find anything like that on NASCAR race results.

Allright maybe back to the topic... Awesome article, will go over it shortly. The question will be which of our tires are representive with the tires in the article. Thanks for it :)

N0body Of The Goat
25-03-2016, 14:41
@Mahjik: Could have sworn that you and I reported this sort of issue before Xmas.

Jan Studenski
25-03-2016, 14:52
Here for everyone thats interested

http://www.mediafire.com/download/14722ninnzqf839/Ranked+Race+Willow+Springs.pcp (6.17 MB) - you need this program to open it: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23284-pCARS-Profiler-(Telemetry-amp-Analysis)-PC-ONLY-v1-6

Note that in the last laps i went a bit easier on pace as i was scared that i reach 100% front left wear and this would blow my tire and i would loose 1st place. So I used a different racing line and slowed a bit to reduce wear, which infact worked.


The tire wear meter tends to show only the tread level on the tire. Once the tread is depleted (100% tread wear, 50% total tire wear), the tire will start to fall off in pace due to the lower temperature. You may be speeding up over time due to the grip increasing on track and/or fuel load constantly decreasing. But I personally would like to see a larger drop off in pace before the tread is actually depleted.

The telemetry profiler (its a windows program) is showing the complete tire, not only the thread. I had 6.7% remaining on the front left and i didnt went slower. I could easily keep the pace.

beetes_juice
25-03-2016, 14:55
Allright maybe back to the topic... Awesome article, will go over it shortly. The question will be which of our tires are representive with the tires in the article. Thanks for it :)

Exactly. Thats why I don't get the knee-jerk reaction thread title/post. Thats besides the point, we just don't have enough info or evidence.

And just trying to read through that page/finding any related information I feel I can give SMS a little slack. Awesome that you guys found a possible issue but we all need to calm down, be patient, do what we can (for one, run the hell out of the Fusion), and wait and see if we hear anything from SMS. 100% you agree with that last statement but just wanted to say it again.

*Shinzah, man always liked your posts (even if they were a bit out there at times) Obviously :o, take some time off and regroup. Hope to see you back.

Schnizz58
25-03-2016, 14:58
@Mahjik: Could have sworn that you and I reported this sort of issue before Xmas.
I don't remember who originally reported it but I've definitely read a very similar report. It was also at Willow Springs and I'm wondering if there's just something weird about that particular track.

Krus Control
25-03-2016, 16:20
Holy shmow this thread went off the rails. I'll try to bring some order.

In the Outside the Oval event there is definitely some sort of exploit worth about 3 seconds over fresh hard tires. I suspected that worn tires provided this and I already tested wearing rain tires down all the way in the hopes I could turn them into slicks. Didn't work. I'm going to give the softs, meds, and hards a go today. Will report back here in a bit after I've done some proper testing. I'm thinking that this is the exploit I was looking for though.

Mahjik
25-03-2016, 16:45
@Mahjik: Could have sworn that you and I reported this sort of issue before Xmas.

I'll go back and take a look at some notes around then.

Krus Control
25-03-2016, 21:03
I did a lot of testing, but still haven't found the exploit. As the hard tires go through their life cycle, there are times of increased stability, but I didn't find there to be more peak grip. All in all I would say the life cycle is very realistic. Maybe with different tire pressures you can get a better result. One thing I found is that very late in the wear cycle the hards become less able to retain and build up heat. They just went blue on me. I couldn't tell with the softs or mediums if they got more or less grip, only that you probably won't get them to the hard's level or beyond by wearing them down. I'm still looking for the exploit that the leader on PC used in beyond the oval. I need to do some more fiddling around.

cluck
25-03-2016, 22:26
good lord, what just happened :o

For full disclosure, Shinzah replied because I pointed the thread in his direction. I know nothing about racecars and I thought he might be able to shed some light on whether or not real stockcars can indeed do 50 laps on a single set of tyres. I will also freely admit that Nemeth's opening post rubbed me up the wrong way - it is precisely the type of feedback that doesn't help anybody, let alone the devs, when it comes to solving a problem.

All that aside, it looks like things are getting on track (honestly, no pun intended, no coat required!) and we should be able to move forward in trying to find out exactly what's happening and whether it is expected and/or realistic, which is all we really want at the end of the day :)

t0daY
26-03-2016, 00:11
good lord, what just happened :o

For full disclosure, Shinzah replied because I pointed the thread in his direction. I know nothing about racecars and I thought he might be able to shed some light on whether or not real stockcars can indeed do 50 laps on a single set of tyres. I will also freely admit that Nemeth's opening post rubbed me up the wrong way - it is precisely the type of feedback that doesn't help anybody, let alone the devs, when it comes to solving a problem.

All that aside, it looks like things are getting on track (honestly, no pun intended, no coat required!) and we should be able to move forward in trying to find out exactly what's happening and whether it is expected and/or realistic, which is all we really want at the end of the day :)

If he would stick to that rather than insulting people than this could have been awesome^^ (definitely coat required :D)

LukeC
26-03-2016, 04:18
Just did a 20 lap race at Watkins glen short in the fusion stock car and everything seems fine. I started with a more or less neutral setup and and I drove really hard spinning up the rears at every opportunity. Initially as the rears ( especially rear left) started to wear down I found it easier to lap slightly quicker ( mid 1:08s instead of low 1:09s) because I found it easier to bring the rear around the fast corners in a lot more controlled fashion and nail the throttle earlier. After about 14 Laps I found the oversteer to be a tad excessive and could not go any quicker. In some situations the car seemed to go from understeer to oversteer which also made it harder to lap quicker. I finally stopped at the end of the pit straight and did some donuts to wear the rears down to completely grey. After that, there was no way I could lap faster. In fact the car kept spinning out every time I turned in, and traction seemed to be poor. Eventually I spun and the hit the barrier and didn't finish the race, but I couldn't drive the car at all at this point anyway.

NemethR
26-03-2016, 07:50
Altough I do not have telemetry, here are my tire choices in the race:

I started on Softs, and on fuel for 15 laps (don't know in liters anymore)
Softs lasted till lap 22, and there was a point when the car became unstable when coming out of corners, that was around lap 10, and then around lap 14-15 this disappeared.
At first I tought it is the tires degrading, but then I started thinking maybe its my driving. - Maybe it was bot, but point is, after those few laps, the tires were again very nice to drive,
and I had no drop in laptimes, nor handling.

At the end of lap 22, I pitted for full fuel, and hard tires, my laptimes improved by a sec at least, and I did my fastest laps in the last 4-5 laps, that means the tires were 23 laps old at that point. (22+23 is 45 I know, but i got lapped a few times).

With the Hards I did not have any issues with stability, like with the softs, but the hards lasted for less time, then the Softs.

I did 22 on softs, and there was still some green on the HUD.
The hards were grey already around lap 40. (lasted 18 laps)

I hope this helps a bit.

NemethR
26-03-2016, 07:53
Just did a 20 lap race at Watkins glen short in the fusion stock car and everything seems fine. I started with a more or less neutral setup and and I drove really hard spinning up the rears at every opportunity. Initially as the rears ( especially rear left) started to wear down I found it easier to lap slightly quicker ( mid 1:08s instead of low 1:09s) because I found it easier to bring the rear around the fast corners in a lot more controlled fashion and nail the throttle earlier. After about 14 Laps I found the oversteer to be a tad excessive and could not go any quicker. In some situations the car seemed to go from understeer to oversteer which also made it harder to lap quicker. I finally stopped at the end of the pit straight and did some donuts to wear the rears down to completely grey. After that, there was no way I could lap faster. In fact the car kept spinning out every time I turned in, and traction seemed to be poor. Eventually I spun and the hit the barrier and didn't finish the race, but I couldn't drive the car at all at this point anyway.

Well, we (i at least) did not wear down the rear tires to "grey", only the front left. but that should then have understeering effect on the car, wich it did not have, and i could drive faster and faster. Altough I never managed faster then a 1:11.8..

miagi
26-03-2016, 10:32
Hmm tires can do all sorts of funny things but harder compound having better pace on a track like Willow is not easy to explain. It's a track with mostly long fast corners, so it's all about lateral performance or grip. Softer compound should have more adhesion and hysteresis to improve the grip. In real life some effects can reduce the performance of a softer tire like blistering, graining or if the tire produces too much wear and is not able to properly move the rubber of surface. Last effect happens of soft or very soft tires mostly and rather aggressive asphalt. But tire wear simulation is something very complicated. Not even tire producing companies with all there simulation power and knowledge can always predict how the tire will wear, so forget to see it in a sim simulated in real time.

On the other hand there seams to be some method to the madness about the hard tires getting quicker when they wear, if I understood that correct?
Let's move aside which tire should be quicker and accept that the hard compound is quicker. It makes sense that it gets quicker towards the end of it's life cycle because when a tire is kept hot the compound gets harder (it's like vulcanise the rubber some more). And if I understood Casey right, pCARS is doing this. So after some time running the tire hot it should be harder. If it gets faster it would only go in the same direction that a harder compound is quicker on that car.

Don't ask me why a harder compound is quicker on that car in pCARS, I don't really have a clue about that.


Not even remotely true. In fact, teams will often pit for fuel and NOT tires at the end of the race for more rear ballast because the rear being too light scrubs off more speed than the weight loss advantage gain through a combination of the rear of the car moving more in addition to the rear suspension pushing the rear spoiler farther into the airstream created by the car.
That ballast on the rear thing speaks against every car resp. car-handling textbook. To get a car agile, the 3 most important things are:
1. Reduce the mass
2. Lower the mass
3. Center the mass

Putting ballast into the rear of the car speaks against at least 2 of the 3. Putting weight somewhere far away from the CoG might bring the weight balance of the car closer to 50/50 or 40/60 (whatever is intended to be "the best") but it will greatly increase the yaw inertia of the car, making it less agile.
In this case, lets assume the weight is put above the rear axis, the wheel load on the rear axis is increased. Because of the degressive tire behavior (lateral force over wheel load) the rear axis will simply perform worse. [In simple words, 20% more wheel load will result in only 15% more grip, so grip to weight ratio gets worse]. If the rear axis performs less good, and the front axis still performs about as good, the car will tend more towards oversteer but according to textbooks it will not gain performance.
Such a re-balancing can easily be done with an adjustable ARB without the weight drawback.

The thing about the airstream also seems questionable when you think about it. Let's take the fully loaded car with driver, 1576 kg. I give it a moderate body stiffness of 2,5 Hz. That would result in a Body Spring Stiffness of 180 N/mm. The car can take 68L of E15 (source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Cup_Series)). The density of the fuel is about 0,74 kg/L so a full tank is about 51 kg, round it up to 500 N. So even on a rather soft spring setup, a full tank above the rear axis, would push the cars rear down 2,8 mm. Half full tank would move it down 1,4 mm on a soft setup. To me that doesn't sound like it makes a big difference aero wise. Probably not even measurable...
(Example 3 Hz natural frequency at the start, refueling half the tank results in pretty exactly 1 mm ride height change, possibly the tire loses more dynamic radius due to wear than that. And in case someone thinks about rake or something like that. Pushing the rear down by 3 mm on a car that has a wheel stand of 2794 mm, creates an angle difference of 0,06 deg.)

Also this whole logic is questionable, if they didn't want the spoiler to be in the airstream just reduce that spoiler, make it smaller or reduce rear ride height from the start. Pushing the rear down with weight so the car creates less downforce and drag is like the absolute worst way to do it.

:cower::cower::cower:

miagi
26-03-2016, 11:06
Little add to get that simple. As an exmaple, if tire "A" has better performance and higher durability than tire "B", this marks a significant technological advantage of "A" over "B". It's not impossible. Take a soft slick from the 80s or 90s and a modern top tire and maybe you'd find something like that. But with two modern tires it seems interesting...

Krus Control
26-03-2016, 18:21
I've done more running and this is in fact a strange feature that allows for an exploit. I was able to drop a full second off of my laptime and there is more to grab. I was able to lower tire pressures to work in a different groove, since heat isn't retained as well in the tires when they're worn. When I took the pressures into account and changed my setup to compensate like this the tires went through phases of increased grip. This exploit can provide laptimes 2 full seconds faster than is possible on fresh hards. Here is a screenshot of where my tires were when I ran a lap a full second faster than was possible on fresh tires. For reference, I ran a 1:24.556 on fresh hards and that is really fast. Here my time is 1:23.492 and I had a few laps where I was up on that by a good amount. I don't believe this time is possible on fresh hards.

230504

Patrick Kulinski
26-03-2016, 18:50
I've done more running and this is in fact a strange feature that allows for an exploit. I was able to drop a full second off of my laptime and there is more to grab. I was able to lower tire pressures to work in a different groove, since heat isn't retained as well in the tires when they're worn. When I took the pressures into account and changed my setup to compensate like this the tires went through phases of increased grip. This exploit can provide laptimes 2 full seconds faster than is possible on fresh hards. Here is a screenshot of where my tires were when I ran a lap a full second faster than was possible on fresh tires. For reference, I ran a 1:24.556 on fresh hards and that is really fast. Here my time is 1:23.492 and I had a few laps where I was up on that by a good amount. I don't believe this time is possible on fresh hards.
Nice one. The only thing left to consider is whether the rubber build-up has a noticeable influence (I guess it doesn't) and whether the time of day and the track+ambient temps changed (I wouldn't bet on that either).

Dakpilot
26-03-2016, 20:37
A long time ago when I was a little involved in racing, I found it expensive that the 'fast guys' would take a brand new set of tyres and skim 70% of the tread off to get better lap times

probably not related at all but just a thought :cool:

Cheers Dakpilot

LukeC
26-03-2016, 21:22
In my case with the rears worn down there was definitely a very pronounced oversteering effect. However this only really became very noticeable when the tyre gauge turned completely grey and I did another 30-40 second burnout on the run off area at the end of the main straight. As I understand it, completely grey means there is still 60% of meat left on the tyre, and I really don't know how early to expect the drop off in grip.

I also did a 5 lap race at the nordschleife in the Huyara. I scaled the tyre wear to three times faster than real and drove very conservatively. In this case the wear was predominately on the fronts. I didn't notice any understeer until the fronts turned completely grey, which happened towards the end of lap 3. One lap later I was locking the fronts, even with the most subtle application of the break pedal. I subsequently found there was some understeer, although not as severe as I imagined it would be. At this point there was no way I could have lapped faster than before and I ended up crashing ate the start of lap 5.

So in both cases the behaviour seems to be more or less consistent with what one would expect in real life. Although obviously I can't quantify the degree of accuracy.

By the way, is there a difference in the tyre model between PS4 and PC, or are the models identical?

Patrick Kulinski
26-03-2016, 22:20
A long time ago when I was a little involved in racing, I found it expensive that the 'fast guys' would take a brand new set of tyres and skim 70% of the tread off to get better lap times

probably not related at all but just a thought :cool:

Cheers Dakpilot

Aha... were those tyres grooved or do you really talk about slicks? If you mean slicks then we have something interesting here.

TexasTyme214
26-03-2016, 22:34
I've done more running and this is in fact a strange feature that allows for an exploit. I was able to drop a full second off of my laptime and there is more to grab. I was able to lower tire pressures to work in a different groove, since heat isn't retained as well in the tires when they're worn. When I took the pressures into account and changed my setup to compensate like this the tires went through phases of increased grip. This exploit can provide laptimes 2 full seconds faster than is possible on fresh hards. Here is a screenshot of where my tires were when I ran a lap a full second faster than was possible on fresh tires. For reference, I ran a 1:24.556 on fresh hards and that is really fast. Here my time is 1:23.492 and I had a few laps where I was up on that by a good amount. I don't believe this time is possible on fresh hards.

So, would you say grip loss due to worn tires is ultimately dictated by the drop in temperature? It almost sounds like you want to match the lowest pressure possible to the optimum temperature to get the most grip out of the tires, made only possible to worn tires compared to fresh tires.

LukeC
26-03-2016, 22:54
Aha... were those tyres grooved or do you really talk about slicks? If you mean slicks then we have something interesting here.

There is also the "cliff" phenomenon, where the tyres deliver consistent lap times, without a pronounced drop off in performance, until all the "meat is gone" and there is suddenly close to zero grip. I also know that some tires get slightly grippier after the top 20-30% percent of rubber is worn away.

CPU M Rossi
26-03-2016, 23:43
Hmm tires can do all sorts of funny things but harder compound having better pace on a track like Willow is not easy to explain. It's a track with mostly long fast corners, so it's all about lateral performance or grip. Softer compound should have more adhesion and hysteresis to improve the grip. In real life some effects can reduce the performance of a softer tire like blistering, graining or if the tire produces too much wear and is not able to properly move the rubber of surface. Last effect happens of soft or very soft tires mostly and rather aggressive asphalt. But tire wear simulation is something very complicated. Not even tire producing companies with all there simulation power and knowledge can always predict how the tire will wear, so forget to see it in a sim simulated in real time.

On the other hand there seams to be some method to the madness about the hard tires getting quicker when they wear, if I understood that correct?
Let's move aside which tire should be quicker and accept that the hard compound is quicker. It makes sense that it gets quicker towards the end of it's life cycle because when a tire is kept hot the compound gets harder (it's like vulcanise the rubber some more). And if I understood Casey right, pCARS is doing this. So after some time running the tire hot it should be harder. If it gets faster it would only go in the same direction that a harder compound is quicker on that car.

Don't ask me why a harder compound is quicker on that car in pCARS, I don't really have a clue about that.


That ballast on the rear thing speaks against every car resp. car-handling textbook. To get a car agile, the 3 most important things are:
1. Reduce the mass
2. Lower the mass
3. Center the mass

Putting ballast into the rear of the car speaks against at least 2 of the 3. Putting weight somewhere far away from the CoG might bring the weight balance of the car closer to 50/50 or 40/60 (whatever is intended to be "the best") but it will greatly increase the yaw inertia of the car, making it less agile.
In this case, lets assume the weight is put above the rear axis, the wheel load on the rear axis is increased. Because of the degressive tire behavior (lateral force over wheel load) the rear axis will simply perform worse. [In simple words, 20% more wheel load will result in only 15% more grip, so grip to weight ratio gets worse]. If the rear axis performs less good, and the front axis still performs about as good, the car will tend more towards oversteer but according to textbooks it will not gain performance.
Such a re-balancing can easily be done with an adjustable ARB without the weight drawback.

The thing about the airstream also seems questionable when you think about it. Let's take the fully loaded car with driver, 1576 kg. I give it a moderate body stiffness of 2,5 Hz. That would result in a Body Spring Stiffness of 180 N/mm. The car can take 68L of E15 (source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Cup_Series)). The density of the fuel is about 0,74 kg/L so a full tank is about 51 kg, round it up to 500 N. So even on a rather soft spring setup, a full tank above the rear axis, would push the cars rear down 2,8 mm. Half full tank would move it down 1,4 mm on a soft setup. To me that doesn't sound like it makes a big difference aero wise. Probably not even measurable...
(Example 3 Hz natural frequency at the start, refueling half the tank results in pretty exactly 1 mm ride height change, possibly the tire loses more dynamic radius due to wear than that. And in case someone thinks about rake or something like that. Pushing the rear down by 3 mm on a car that has a wheel stand of 2794 mm, creates an angle difference of 0,06 deg.)

Also this whole logic is questionable, if they didn't want the spoiler to be in the airstream just reduce that spoiler, make it smaller or reduce rear ride height from the start. Pushing the rear down with weight so the car creates less downforce and drag is like the absolute worst way to do it.

:cower::cower::cower:
well back in the day they use to do it at Daytona and Talladega they would run soft springs and would be on the bump stops in the rear to get the spoiler out of the air & there were (and still are) rules about the ride height of the car which I believe was 4 inches at the time I am thinking of, also there was a min. angle the spoiler could be at. For a while NASCAR didn't seem to care as most teams used it to get a good qualifying run (this was before the you can't change anything after qualifying in nascar ) But teams started using those setups in races at Daytona & Talladega.

miagi
27-03-2016, 00:01
well back in the day they use to do it at Daytona and Talladega they would run soft springs and would be on the bump stops in the rear to get the spoiler out of the air & there were (and still are) rules about the ride height of the car which I believe was 4 inches at the time I am thinking of, also there was a min. angle the spoiler could be at. For a while NASCAR didn't seem to care as most teams used it to get a good qualifying run (this was before the you can't change anything after qualifying in nascar ) But teams started using those setups in races at Daytona & Talladega.

Sure that is poor mans DRS. But the car gets pushed down by downforce not weight. Never weight.

CPU M Rossi
27-03-2016, 00:12
Sure that is poor mans DRS. But the car gets pushed down by downforce not weight. Never weight.

true :D

Krus Control
27-03-2016, 00:19
So, would you say grip loss due to worn tires is ultimately dictated by the drop in temperature? It almost sounds like you want to match the lowest pressure possible to the optimum temperature to get the most grip out of the tires, made only possible to worn tires compared to fresh tires.

I think the tires losing heat retention is unintentional. I wouldn't know though, as I have no experience in real life with NASCAR tires. It was just something that I picked up on and it helped me get the tires in the right pressure range.

LukeC
27-03-2016, 02:37
Well, we (i at least) did not wear down the rear tires to "grey", only the front left. but that should then have understeering effect on the car, wich it did not have, and i could drive faster and faster. Altough I never managed faster then a 1:11.8..

I just did another test and tyre wear definitely is simulated, you just have to go way, way beyond the tyre gauges turning grey. In my case in the Gumpert at Barcelona GP I was able to lap more or less consistently for about 2 laps laps after the fronts turned completely grey ( front tyre wear was about 30% heavier than rear).

After 5 laps after the fronts had turned grey I started getting very severe understeer and severe front brake lock ups. My faster laps where in the mid 1:54s and towards the end I struggled to lap faster than high 2:11s. In fact I just kept understeering straight off the track all the time ; the car was undriveable.

So it looks as though maybe the tyre gauge shows a small percentage of the usable grip, or maybe real tyre wear doesn't happen fast enough, but it definetely is simulated.

Ps I had tyre wear scaled up by 3 times faster than normal wear.

Dakpilot
27-03-2016, 09:02
Aha... were those tyres grooved or do you really talk about slicks? If you mean slicks then we have something interesting here.

No these were grooved tyres, I did say probably not related , but I thought it interesting anyway :cool:

Cheers Dakpilot

Patrick Kulinski
27-03-2016, 10:10
No these were grooved tyres, I did say probably not related , but I thought it interesting anyway :cool:

Cheers Dakpilot

Okay, then this looks like they went for less profile in order to...
- minimize rolling resistance
- increase tyre stiffness (i.e. higher cornering stability)
- If they totally scrubbed off the profile: increased contact patch size (more grip)

I just did some tests for tonights race (DTM-Merc @ Brands Hatch Indy) and it all feels natural. The car becomes more difficult to control with increased wear, but that's counterbalanced a bit by the decreasing amount of fuel. All in all though, laptimes were dropping from 43.0-ish to 44.0s. The drop-off for the softs began around lap 13/14 while the mediums kept their speed for 8-9 more laps.

If you take a closer look at the data you'll see that the front left has both the most noticable temperature drop and the highest wear (as expected). In general, all tyres have dropped from 88-102°C to 83-90°C (which I consider a bit low for my liking).

Tyre temp readings, lap 6 vs. lap 35 from my stint on the soft compound:

Lap 6:
230546

Lap 35:
230547

Timing and tyre wear data for both stints: 230548

Krus Control
27-03-2016, 16:10
I should say that I haven't seen this grip increase in any tire except the NASCAR. I Tried the meds and softs and they both do it as well. Maybe some other classes exhibit this behavior but I haven't seen it.

Doge
28-03-2016, 00:13
Finding a class where all the compounds work roughly as common sense dictate is a rarity.

Most classes out there are plagued by issues: soft tyres that render useless the rest of the dry weather compounds, overheating having no effect whatsoever, intermediates that arenīt the tyre to be on in any weather, completely bugged tyres that cause your FFB to go bananas (like the FB Yiro), ridiculous wear pattens across front and rear, ridiculous wear patterns in terms of what the HUD says and the grip you get, camber changes not doing anything to the temperature across the width of your tyres...

I would echo the "itīs a joke" thing as a valid description of what we have now.

Panopticism
28-03-2016, 02:09
I would echo the "itīs a joke" thing as a valid description of what we have now.

In my opinion, "it's ambitious" would be more accurate.

Patrick Kulinski
28-03-2016, 07:53
Finding a class where all the compounds work roughly as common sense dictate is a rarity.

Most classes out there are plagued by issues: soft tyres that render useless the rest of the dry weather compounds, overheating having no effect whatsoever, intermediates that arenīt the tyre to be on in any weather, completely bugged tyres that cause your FFB to go bananas (like the FB Yiro), ridiculous wear pattens across front and rear, ridiculous wear patterns in terms of what the HUD says and the grip you get, camber changes not doing anything to the temperature across the width of your tyres...

I would echo the "itīs a joke" thing as a valid description of what we have now.

I feel this approach is way too simple. When saying "compound A is useless/superior/smells funny" you need to consider the data around the tyre's functionality. This would be wear and temperatures, to name two. Only then you'd have the right to tell whether something is a joke. Before you go into the details it's rather a guessing game what is going on.

Sankyo
28-03-2016, 09:26
Finding a class where all the compounds work roughly as common sense dictate is a rarity.

In my experience, if there's one thing that's highly overrated it's the common sense of armchair racers :). I'm not saying that everything is perfect in the game, but since the devs do a lot of research, speak with real-life race drivers, have real-life drivers test the tyres and have real-life racing experience themselves, things in general aren't as far off as some people seem to think. There are simply too many parameters influencing car and tyre behaviour to easily judge whether tyre behaviour in the game is wrong or not.

It's been shown in the past already that people's expectations of, for example, how tyres behave when understeering or when overheating are largely wrong. So unless factual arguments are presented, just stating "it's a joke" doesn't mean anything.

miagi
28-03-2016, 10:06
That Intermediate Tires don't really have the right conditions, that could also have to do with this issue:


There is one thing I'd very much like to see fixed in pCARS1 before updates end. In wet conditions (excluding Thunderstorm) track temps don't go down. They stay exactly were they were in dry conditions, no matter if weather changes in the session or is set beforehand.
The wet tires seam to be very well balanced heat wise to a colder wet track and that is the problem. The bug of not changing track temps makes many rain tires just overheat within few lap. And there is nothing I can do about it. Even running the highest tire pressure on the Renault RS 01 for example only made the tires overheat a bit slower. That spoils the outstanding weather feature pCARS has quite a lot with certain cars in particular.

Could the track temps be fixed so that the rain tires can work intended?


Maybe because of this the tracks dry out very quickly in pCARS, skipping the conditions for Intermediate Tires pretty quickly. I wouldn't even say the track drys up to quick in pCARS seeing how quick it can go in real life too. That within 3-5 laps on some tracks the race line is already dry and the cars on grooved tires are seeking to cool their tires off line. Esp. with not effected track and ambient temps, the track is supposed to dry up super quick, unfortunately.

Doge
28-03-2016, 11:21
In my experience, if there's one thing that's highly overrated it's the common sense of armchair racers :). I'm not saying that everything is perfect in the game, but since the devs do a lot of research, speak with real-life race drivers, have real-life drivers test the tyres and have real-life racing experience themselves, things in general aren't as far off as some people seem to think. There are simply too many parameters influencing car and tyre behaviour to easily judge whether tyre behaviour in the game is wrong or not.

It's been shown in the past already that people's expectations of, for example, how tyres behave when understeering or when overheating are largely wrong. So unless factual arguments are presented, just stating "it's a joke" doesn't mean anything.

Anyone with a mild interest in a racing series can spot when a given compound is not acting as expected. Donīt understimate your userbase, a pretty big part of us actively follow motorsport and are perfectly qualified to spot that a soft tyre goes too fast for too long compared to the real series tyre or to spot that inters donīt work in any weather. Remember the FR 3.5 launch mate, the car was released with a wet compound that was faster in the dry than the slick, yet until it hit the hands of all the armchair peasants out there nothing was done about it.



I feel this approach is way too simple. When saying "compound A is useless/superior/smells funny" you need to consider the data around the tyre's functionality. This would be wear and temperatures, to name two. Only then you'd have the right to tell whether something is a joke. Before you go into the details it's rather a guessing game what is going on.

Weīve done that dozens of times, everybody playing for a while know perfectly these details and you can bet I do.

I know how that the FB Yiro works better underinflated and overheated that ran normally, I know that a hugely overheated LMP1 soft is faster over a full stint (and then some more) than a hard much closer to the correct temperatures even at tracks like Dubai, I know that the FR 3.5 dry compound has a flaw where the front wears out at a MUCH faster rate than the rear -which doesnīt happen in the real series-, I know that the intermediates are slower than the full wets in all kinds of wet track conditions in a lot of series, I know even the most extreme camber or pressure changes wonīt do much in terms of I-M-O temperature changes.

We all know by now, we all not saying "itīs a joke" because weīve just turned on the game and saw something we didnīt expected. Itīs been almost a year (much more for some WMD guys). We know whatīs wrong.


Maybe because of this the tracks dry out very quickly in pCARS, skipping the conditions for Intermediate Tires pretty quickly. I wouldn't even say the track drys up to quick in pCARS seeing how quick it can go in real life too. That within 3-5 laps on some tracks the race line is already dry and the cars on grooved tires are seeking to cool their tires off line. Esp. with not effected track and ambient temps, the track is supposed to dry up super quick, unfortunately.

Sadly itīs not that. Even if you fix stable light rain conditions for all the lenght of the session, the wets will still go faster. Doesnīt happen in every class though. LMP1 wet compounds worked horribly, yet GT4 wet and inters worked as expected some builds ago (hopefully they still do, but no idea).

miagi
28-03-2016, 11:46
Anyone with a mild interest in a racing series can spot when a given compound is not acting as expected. Donīt understimate your userbase, a pretty big part of us actively follow motorsport and are perfectly qualified to spot that a soft tyre goes too fast for too long compared to the real tyre or to spot that inters donīt work.

The flaws are that evident.
Sorry, but even most of the persons that start studying Automotive Engineering have barely any idea of tire technology. And it's not much different in this user base, in the user base of iRacing or in this forum. Just because random internet guys act like they know everything doesn't mean that they have sufficient or actually any tire tech knowledge.

Doge
28-03-2016, 11:53
Sorry, but even most of the persons that start studying Automotive Engineering have barely any idea of tire technology. And it's not much different in this user base, in the user base of iRacing or in this forum. Just because random internet guys act like they know everything doesn't mean that they have sufficient or actually any tire tech knowledge.

We know how they perform when strapped in a real race car: how long they go, how fast they wear, when are they used, in what weather are they used, in what temperature range they work. And we KNOW when they donīt work and perform as expected. Thereīs not a need for any tyre tech knowledge. Still, you should have paid attention to the stuff some people have done here (like the constant lateral effort tests done with different camber levels).

Still, we wouldnīt need to go that far. We donīt need to understand WHY theyīre not working, why theyīre off in the game. Thatīs devs work, donīt pass it on us. Our part is telling devs: "this tyre goes too far, too fast, at too high temps". Their part is understanding why and fixing it.

Puffpirat
28-03-2016, 12:00
to be fair miagi was one of the guys doing those tests ;)

miagi
28-03-2016, 13:12
Sadly itīs not that. Even if you fix stable light rain conditions for all the lenght of the session, the wets will still go faster. Doesnīt happen in every class though. LMP1 wet compounds worked horribly, yet GT4 wet and inters worked as expected some builds ago (hopefully they still do, but no idea).
Intermediate are not for light rain conditions. They are ment for a drying up track. Like after a brief rain or light rain shower, a moist track that is drying up. When because of the water, slick tire have trouble keeping up the temps in the specified range. Michelin even has a slick Intermediate tire. It has some silica and an even softer compound than the softest slick so it can generate enough heat even when the water brings additional cooling. Being a slick, puddles are still deadly, but for a moist track it's equally quick and more durable than a grooved intermediate tire.


Some racing series such as Formula One (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One) allow an intermediate (inter) tyre. This tyre is designed to be used in conditions too wet for slick tyres and too dry for wet tyres.

Unfortunately because track temps and ambient temps don't drop in pCARS as it rains (that's a bug), wet tires very often are prone to overheat. But esp. the temperature thing takes the advantage away from the intermediate tires heat wise, in sum the "too wet for slicks, too dry for wets" becomes a very brief moment.

miagi
28-03-2016, 13:28
We know how they perform when strapped in a real race car: how long they go, how fast they wear, when are they used, in what weather are they used, in what temperature range they work. And we KNOW when they donīt work and perform as expected. Thereīs not a need for any tyre tech knowledge.
Nonsense. Without at least some additional information no conclusion can be pulled from looking at it. there are some many thing we don't know what the teams are doing. Like in F1 when it came out that the teams were using the left tires on the right side because they found out that they perform better that way. Also have you ever noticed that in F1 Quali they manage to kill a super soft or soft tire in one flying lap so that the pace drops significantly for the 2nd flying lap, but in the race they drive 10-15 laps with the same compound?! Ever thought about that?! All we have is rough estimations as we don't even know how worn the tires are when they get changed.The silly F1 tires fall off a cliff at some point, GT tires don't do that. In Le Mans Audi could do double stints with the tires, but they could also to triple or once I think even four stint with a set of tires.
Without knowledge it's just whining around.



Still, you should have paid attention to the stuff some people have done here (like the constant lateral effort tests done with different camber levels).
You are talking about this test: Lateral Force on Camber (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42899-Lateral-Force-on-Camber)If so, I might have seen that thread... :apthy:

t0daY
28-03-2016, 15:25
We know how they perform when strapped in a real race car: how long they go, how fast they wear, when are they used, in what weather are they used, in what temperature range they work. And we KNOW when they donīt work and perform as expected. Thereīs not a need for any tyre tech knowledge. Still, you should have paid attention to the stuff some people have done here (like the constant lateral effort tests done with different camber levels).

Still, we wouldnīt need to go that far. We donīt need to understand WHY theyīre not working, why theyīre off in the game. Thatīs devs work, donīt pass it on us. Our part is telling devs: "this tyre goes too far, too fast, at too high temps". Their part is understanding why and fixing it.

Ouch xD I hope you do realise that it was actually miagi himself who did this test :D :D

Miagi is part of a formula student team and studies automotive engineering in Hamburg. IF someone has knowledge about how camber should works or how tires should behave it is to 100% miagi. His knowledge is outbursting and I know him for ages and I would not question any comments he is doing physics wise and/or knowledge of engineering.

Krus Control
28-03-2016, 17:01
Finding a class where all the compounds work roughly as common sense dictate is a rarity.

Most classes out there are plagued by issues: soft tyres that render useless the rest of the dry weather compounds, overheating having no effect whatsoever, intermediates that arenīt the tyre to be on in any weather, completely bugged tyres that cause your FFB to go bananas (like the FB Yiro), ridiculous wear pattens across front and rear, ridiculous wear patterns in terms of what the HUD says and the grip you get, camber changes not doing anything to the temperature across the width of your tyres...

I would echo the "itīs a joke" thing as a valid description of what we have now.

I'll just touch on the bugged tires. In every case I've seen this; FB, Lotus 25, 40, 49 there is a simple solution. Turn Mz down. I Think it's just bad Mz mixing.