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B3ntley
27-03-2016, 15:53
How does one determine whether an issue is setup related or driver error?

A few of my GT3s have a wiggling action on high speed turn in. The front goes from grippy to understeer, then back to grippy. The only way I have been able to mitigate this is by making the front as soft as possible and making the rear extremely stiff. This causes tire wear issues, but i seem to be the only one that has this grip problem. I have a very difficult time getting rid of understeer. I could run stiffer rear springs and dampers in the Bentley and Cadillac and still manage to get understeer.

Rambo_Commando
27-03-2016, 15:58
Are you using your own setup? You can try using a setup from the setup database and see if the same thing happens.

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 16:05
Ive used different setups. Lots of combinations, lots of driving. over 12K miles in the ATS alone

kevin kirk
27-03-2016, 16:07
work your diff settings. ABS off with a good brake pressure setting to prevent lock up helped me with braking understeer. If your getting major understeer in the Bentley maybe its a controls setting issue. I think the majority of comments about the Bentley I have read on here is it having a lot of oversteer, not understeer.

hkraft300
27-03-2016, 16:12
So understeer on turn-in, hey?
Have you tried braking a fraction earlier?

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 16:14
work your diff settings. ABS off with a good brake pressure setting to prevent lock up helped me with braking understeer. If your getting major understeer in the Bentley maybe its a controls setting issue. I think the majority of comments about the Bentley I have read on here is it having a lot of oversteer, not understeer.

the diff didnt seem to do enough on its own and felt like it needed to be complemented by other settings. I think my issue is chassis related. In replay, I always see a lot of understeer. Its clearly noticeable. What control settings could be the issue? my sensitivity is high, deadzone is at 4. A friend told me to run a high filtering sensitivity, but it made my car feel dead and slow to turn. before that my filtering sensitivity was at zero.

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 16:17
So understeer on turn-in, hey?
Have you tried braking a fraction earlier?

yea, i even ran my braking pressure at 70% to encourage trail braking. Sometimes it worked well, like on tracks like Spa. Other times the rear just started to slide out. I never actually spun out from this though, just a small drift

Tomcul
27-03-2016, 16:37
But if you're getting understeer with setups that others don't it must be driver related?
Check your corner entry speeds with your friends.. Are you using wheel or controller?

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 16:47
Controller. I only have two friends on controllers that are faster than me. They are really good with trail braking. I get more understeer and the wiggling effect when i use a setup from a wheel. Im generally a hard braker. I like to do most of the braking before the official corner, then coast from entry to apex, then throttle once past the apex. I've been driving like that since GT5. could that be the cause?

kevin kirk
27-03-2016, 17:06
the diff didnt seem to do enough on its own and felt like it needed to be complemented by other settings. I think my issue is chassis related. In replay, I always see a lot of understeer. Its clearly noticeable. What control settings could be the issue? my sensitivity is high, deadzone is at 4. A friend told me to run a high filtering sensitivity, but it made my car feel dead and slow to turn. before that my filtering sensitivity was at zero.
........For me the biggest effect causing understeer is speed sensitivity to high. There is a thousand different control combination that you can use. Each one of them feeling different. The only setting that keeped me on the right track for controller settings was 0 deadzone and 0 STEERING sensitivity no matter what changes I made. But yea if you want to take big swings and overcome understeer is lower the SPEED sensitivity.

F1_Racer68
27-03-2016, 17:11
I used to have this exact problem myself and, as much as I hate to tell you this, it is most likely "driver error".

Your technique is fine (brake on straight, roll to apex, accelerate from apex to exit), I suspect though that you are braking too late and not long enough. Essentially what is happening is that the setup is allowing the car to turn in well, but then there is still too much speed so the front loses grip and slides. That slide scrubs off enough speed that the front is able to grip again and so it finishes turning into the apex.

Using the same technique you described, start applying your brakes a few feet earlier than you normally would, but continue braking to the same point where you normally release them for turn in. Just add a few more feet of braking distance. I suspect you will find that as you lengthen your braking zone you will find that your issue becomes less and less noticeable.

If you change your braking and find that the issue is still happening, then I would consider looking at your front pressures and front camber. It is possible that you are rolling onto the side of the tire rather than staying on the treads during the turn in phase. If the braking technique adjustment doesn't solve it, then try increasing front tire pressure and/or adding more negative camber on the front.

Hope that helps.

Tomcul
27-03-2016, 17:11
Maybe controller settings hkraft might be able help you there..
If it's understeering while coasting you can try reducing decel diff and preload..

hkraft300
27-03-2016, 17:18
I wouldn't judge by replays. They're terrible in this game.
70% pressure is too low for almost every car. I'm doing 80-85% for everything except Indy/Formula cars. What's your bias?
I'm no GT3 expert (I suck at them) but I'm not sure of this "wiggling" you speak of. If your steering isn't steady, or maybe you're "wiggling" beyond peak grip and back. So you're going from grip-slip-grip-slip... Maybe.
Precise steering with a controller is difficult. As sensitive and dynamic pcars tyres are, its all the more evident.

Edit: what F1 said ^
Ninja me softly with that post...

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 17:31
Yea, Im starting to think its my braking. My bais is 52% on the front. Im not sure how I can extend my braking zone without lowering the brake pressure. Im either on or off. But yea, the tires would always go grip-slip-grip when my cornering speeds were slower than my friends. Thanks

hkraft300
27-03-2016, 17:38
52% bias may be your problem.
Only very rear-heavy cars would like that little front bias (Ruf GT3, Radical RX, Lotus 78/98T...).
When you hit the brakes, you get weight shift towards the front. Possible you're getting rear lock up and mistaking the feeling for understeer? I get rear lock with 56% bias in an LMP car.
Extend braking zone by braking half a car length sooner like F1 explained above, and ease off the brakes (from full squeeze to like half brakes) as the car slows just before turn-in.

Panopticism
27-03-2016, 20:13
It's hard to tell exactly what you mean by "wiggling". That could be ABS kicking in, decel lock, geometry, braking points, steering inputs just before or during heavy braking, etc.

Setting your braking pressure that low will not encourage trail braking. In GT3, trail braking should need no encouragement. It is required on most corners of most tracks if you want to be fast. Maybe pull up the telemetry while running laps so that you get some visual cues for your braking inputs, and focus on releasing the brake gradually as you approach the apex. Any time you spend coasting to the apex is time that other people are using to make the car work for them. Running single seaters with no ABS and high downforce is a good way to practice.

Patrick Kulinski
27-03-2016, 20:56
A few of my GT3s have a wiggling action on high speed turn in. The front goes from grippy to understeer, then back to grippy.

By any chance, could it be that you're experiencing understeer before going of the throttle or braking, which would cause lift-off oversteer (due to the weight shift forward)?

kevin kirk
27-03-2016, 22:31
Just don't give up. Your at the point were some people get frustrated,stop testing and blame the game for having bad controller settings. I promise that if you keep testing, you will find what you like. Even when you do find that first controller setup that you like, don't stay with one controller setup to long. Anouther thing that has help me is somedays when you don't feel like racing. Mess around with the controller settings just to see what it does. Feel what the game feels like with tire wear on and off, turn off fuel useage to run with a empty tank to see how the car feels with no fuel weight and full fuel weight. Don't be afraid to turn on stability control even if you don't plan on using it. Just feel the effect it has on the car. Play the game everyway possible just to feel how it changes the feel of the car.

Patrick Kulinski
27-03-2016, 23:09
Just don't give up. Your at the point were some people get frustrated,stop testing and blame the game for having bad controller settings. I promise that if you keep testing, you will find what you like. Even when you do find that first controller setup that you like, don't stay with one controller setup to long. Anouther thing that has help me is somedays when you don't feel like racing. Mess around with the controller settings just to see what it does. Feel what the game feels like with tire wear on and off, turn off fuel useage to run with a empty tank to see how the car feels with no fuel weight and full fuel weight. Don't be afraid to turn on stability control even if you don't plan on using it. Just feel the effect it has on the car. Play the game everyway possible just to feel how it changes the feel of the car.

This.

On top of the hints above, approach the limit from the slow end of the speed spectrum, and by all means, try to be smooth with your inputs. Maybe this will help you get rid of the problems you experience.

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 23:56
It's hard to tell exactly what you mean by "wiggling". That could be ABS kicking in, decel lock, geometry, braking points, steering inputs just before or during heavy braking, etc.

Setting your braking pressure that low will not encourage trail braking. In GT3, trail braking should need no encouragement. It is required on most corners of most tracks if you want to be fast. Maybe pull up the telemetry while running laps so that you get some visual cues for your braking inputs, and focus on releasing the brake gradually as you approach the apex. Any time you spend coasting to the apex is time that other people are using to make the car work for them. Running single seaters with no ABS and high downforce is a good way to practice.

I mean that the front tires start off with more than enough grip, lose it, then the grip returns (all while entering a turn). It feels a lot like understeer. I set me brake pressure that low to extend my braking zone. Im either on or off with the brakes because of driving habits.

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 23:57
By any chance, could it be that you're experiencing understeer before going of the throttle or braking, which would cause lift-off oversteer (due to the weight shift forward)?

I am experiencing understeer after lifting throttle>during braking>and after lifting the brakes. I dont get lift off oversteer. Thanks

B3ntley
27-03-2016, 23:58
Thanks for your inputs

hkraft300
28-03-2016, 06:12
Your driving style may have worked in GT (I used to do the same in GT5/6) but the vehicles and tyres are far more accurate and dynamic in pcars. As rough as you can drive the GT3, LMP1 and Formula A/B/C cars in this game, you can't do the same with the Group 4/5/C or classic Lotus. I'd suggest spending some time in them: doing so had chopped seconds off my times in modern race cars and tyre life has improved by 8-10+ laps.
What I'm getting at is: going from 100% brake suddenly to 0% and turning poses problems that are more apparent in older race cars. The tyres need a moment to transition from peak longitudinal to peak lateral grip.
A bit of basics:
Think of the grip circle - its a circle and not a square for a reason (yes, some tyres can have more longitudinal than lateral grip).
If a tyre can provide 1g of grip for a particular car, it can only provide that much in any direction. So 1g of braking, then you want to turn - you have to sacrifice some braking to make it turn.
Then there's aerodynamics to further complicate things: at high speed, say 180mph with down force you have more grip than you do at 80mph. So to maximise your braking: 100% brakes and use the max grip available when you're at 180. As you slow to 80, down force goes down, so you have less grip - therefore you have to back off the brakes to 80-60...0% til you turn in.

nhitrac
28-03-2016, 08:16
Just to semi-hijack the thread a bit - What could cause the back end to come loose during heavy braking at high speeds (feels like it wants to swap ends)?

E.g end of the Kemmel Straight on SPA.

Thanks

Panopticism
28-03-2016, 08:28
Just to semi-hijack the thread a bit - What could cause the back end to come loose during heavy braking at high speeds (feels like it wants to swap ends)?

E.g end of the Kemmel Straight on SPA.

Thanks

If you're having the back end come around when you're hard on the brakes but not yet making any steering input and there is no lockup happening, it is probably suspension geometry.

hkraft300
28-03-2016, 08:48
Just to semi-hijack the thread a bit - What could cause the back end to come loose during heavy braking at high speeds (feels like it wants to swap ends)?

E.g end of the Kemmel Straight on SPA.

Thanks


If you're having the back end come around when you're hard on the brakes but not yet making any steering input and there is no lockup happening, it is probably suspension geometry.

We can't exactly alter suspension geometry in game. I reckon its as simple as locking up the rear brakes, even momentarily, or being on the verge of it. Hard braking at seemingly flat, smooth roads with the rears on the edge of locking up feels to me that it'll swap ends. Excessive weight transfer from soft suspension, uneven track surface, differences in rear tyre grip (pressure/wear/temp), asymmetric setups can all cause this.
I'd sort it by pushing the brake bias forward a few % and possibly stiffer springs and dampers.

F1_Racer68
29-03-2016, 04:34
Just to semi-hijack the thread a bit - What could cause the back end to come loose during heavy braking at high speeds (feels like it wants to swap ends)?

E.g end of the Kemmel Straight on SPA.

Thanks

Most likely the weight is transferring forward too quickly, so the back end is getting light. Try the following:

- Increase rear slow rebound
- Increase front slow bump

You may have to do a combination of all of the above. Essentially you want to slow down the weight transfer from the rear to the front. Be careful though, because if you over do it, then you will not have enough grip on the front at turn in.

Once you are happy with the damper settings, if you still have some of the same issue, then look at the following:

- Reduce rear ride height a bit
- Increase Deceleration Lock (LSD)
- Increase Engine Brake Mapping (only if the condition is happening while downshifting).

Hope that helps.