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Prontopac
28-03-2016, 20:04
I've been playing Project Cars since it first came out. Overall, I enjoy the game and applaud the efforts Project Cars has made to improve the game, i.e., Patch #10 as of this writing. However, there are some perceptions I have about this game that may or may not be true.

1. I will never win an online race. Why? Not sure. I have a good Internet connection (I think) 29.01 download speed/4.82 upload speed. Playing solo, my cars are reasonably fast, but online it's as if I'm tied to an anchor.

2. Project Cars, while racing online, has never failed to assess me a 5 second penalty for a track violation, but I see cars all the time careening across the track bouncing off cars and I have yet to see a penalty assessed against them.

3. Horrific crashes do not seem to affect racers using hand held controllers. Within moments they are upon me seemingly unaffected by any damage they may have sustained. I wrinkle a front fender and immediately my vehicle is 10 to 15 miles slower.

4. And while I admire those of you who have mastered racing using hand held controllers, on line you are a menace. Few if any of you can hold a straight line, which is unfair, because how do you plan a passing attempt when the car in front of you is twitching side to side. I'm sure few real time racers have to deal with this anomaly.

Lastly, my apologies to gentlemen who over a 7 lap match race at Road America unexpectedly let me race to the finish line after the last turn. You ran circles around me and I felt that you deserved to win, so I slowed down, kept my line so that you could go around me and cross the finish line first. Instead, I somehow crossed you up and you followed/pushed me across the line. Sorry about that.

Haiden
29-03-2016, 16:49
4. And while I admire those of you who have mastered racing using hand held controllers, on line you are a menace. Few if any of you can hold a straight line, which is unfair, because how do you plan a passing attempt when the car in front of you is twitching side to side. I'm sure few real time racers have to deal with this anomaly.


^^This!!! I know pad players have every right to enjoy the game, but I do hate seeing them on certain tracks, where it's difficult to pass. Basically, you can only overtake them on the early to mid sections of a straight, or in wide easy corners, because you just can't tell what the f they're doing with any certainty. :culpability: There's no running wheel to wheel with pad users, at least not for me.

konnos
29-03-2016, 17:20
Not sure on your online performance Prontopac, but you might not be as fast as you think so the pad users are catching up even with damaged cars? Just because they drive with a pad don't mean they re slow :) Also online can cause anxiety and eagerness to perform better than your opponent, which will lead to mistakes and bad laptimes, until you start taking it easy and don't push when you don't need to.

Yes the penalty is sadly true, there is no system in place that can realistically decide that someone bumped you off the track.

maxx69
29-03-2016, 17:30
I race alongside guys with controllers regularly in my community events .
When they first race with us they can (like you said ) be a pain in the arse , zig zagging around , but after being advised that tuning the controller not only makes them safer on track , but also easier for them to control the cars .
Turning down sensitivity and a few other tweaks helps everyone including them .
If it's ruining your gaming that much , you're welcome to join our community for clean drivers .
We have a good bunch of guys who meet regularly (most of them use a wheel)
Send me a psn (maxx69) for an invitation : )
As for speed , it's probably setup related , either car or pedals may need re-calibrating.

Haiden
29-03-2016, 17:41
I race alongside guys with controllers regularly in my community events .
When they first race with us they can (like you said ) be a pain in the arse , zig zagging around , but after being advised that tuning the controller not only makes them safer on track , but also easier for them to control the cars .
Turning down sensitivity and a few other tweaks helps everyone including them .
If it's ruining your gaming that much , you're welcome to join our community for clean drivers .
We have a good bunch of guys who meet regularly (most of them use a wheel)
Send me a psn (maxx69) for an invitation : )
As for speed , it's probably setup related , either car or pedals may need re-calibrating.

What type of events? Do you have a page or anything with details?

Prontopac
29-03-2016, 18:02
Your comment regarding "Just because they drive with a pad don't mean they're slow..." is also a quandary for me. I use a Thrustmaster T300RS. It is a far more complex piece of equipment than a controller pad. It has to interpret wheel position, FFB, steering ratios, etc., compile that information and upload it to the game. Project Cars then processes that information and I see a visual result on my tv. Absolutely a marvelous response in fractions of seconds.

I assume, because I do not know for sure, that a signal from a controller pad is a bit less complicated to compile and that the bytes of information sent to Project Cars servers is less. And less translates to faster response uploading and downloading. If my theory is true, then it stands to reason that a skilled pad player should be faster online than a player using a wheel. "Thems are the breaks of the game." I understand that. I still enjoy racing and I still enjoy Project Cars. And note, there are a number of very fast wheel racers on line as well. So it is hard to figure out if it is me (probably mostly me regarding my racing skills) or a mechanical advantage a pad racer has over wheel racers. In any event there are no solutions to even the playing field and I will stop whining.

Prontopac
29-03-2016, 18:12
I appreciate the offer and I will take you up on it in about 2 months. Why, well I have one of the Thrustmaster wheels that has a problem with erratic behavior. I'm on a waiting list to send in my wheel for repair. To join you now would be frustrating for me and most likely your friends as well. If you don't mind I will get back to you when my wheel is repaired.

Haiden
29-03-2016, 18:22
Your comment regarding "Just because they drive with a pad don't mean they're slow..." is also a quandary for me. I use a Thrustmaster T300RS. It is a far more complex piece of equipment than a controller pad. It has to interpret wheel position, FFB, steering ratios, etc., compile that information and upload it to the game. Project Cars then processes that information and I see a visual result on my tv. Absolutely a marvelous response in fractions of seconds.

I assume, because I do not know for sure, that a signal from a controller pad is a bit less complicated to compile and that the bytes of information sent to Project Cars servers is less. And less translates to faster response uploading and downloading. If my theory is true, then it stands to reason that a skilled pad player should be faster online than a player using a wheel. "Thems are the breaks of the game." I understand that. I still enjoy racing and I still enjoy Project Cars. And note, there are a number of very fast wheel racers on line as well. So it is hard to figure out if it is me (probably mostly me regarding my racing skills) or a mechanical advantage a pad racer has over wheel racers. In any event there are no solutions to even the playing field and I will stop whining.

One thing pad users don't experience is wheel pull. Some curbs you could steal a bit of and not lose much traction, but you still avoid them, because they pull/jerk your wheel and take you offline. Pad users can steal a bit of those curbs without the steering penalty. Of course, in the end, it probably all evens out. Wheel user have better steering precision and tire feedback.

Krus Control
29-03-2016, 18:31
Your comment regarding "Just because they drive with a pad don't mean they're slow..." is also a quandary for me. I use a Thrustmaster T300RS. It is a far more complex piece of equipment than a controller pad. It has to interpret wheel position, FFB, steering ratios, etc., compile that information and upload it to the game. Project Cars then processes that information and I see a visual result on my tv. Absolutely a marvelous response in fractions of seconds.

I assume, because I do not know for sure, that a signal from a controller pad is a bit less complicated to compile and that the bytes of information sent to Project Cars servers is less. And less translates to faster response uploading and downloading. If my theory is true, then it stands to reason that a skilled pad player should be faster online than a player using a wheel. "Thems are the breaks of the game." I understand that. I still enjoy racing and I still enjoy Project Cars. And note, there are a number of very fast wheel racers on line as well. So it is hard to figure out if it is me (probably mostly me regarding my racing skills) or a mechanical advantage a pad racer has over wheel racers. In any event there are no solutions to even the playing field and I will stop whining.

What I've found is that wheel is faster, but only if everything is configured just right. Having your FFB or setup off can slow you right down. Also sceen size and position are more important for wheel users. Basically wheel can be faster, but it's a lot easier to mess it all up.

Schnizz58
29-03-2016, 18:41
I assume, because I do not know for sure, that a signal from a controller pad is a bit less complicated to compile and that the bytes of information sent to Project Cars servers is less. And less translates to faster response uploading and downloading. If my theory is true, then it stands to reason that a skilled pad player should be faster online than a player using a wheel. "Thems are the breaks of the game." I understand that. I still enjoy racing and I still enjoy Project Cars. And note, there are a number of very fast wheel racers on line as well. So it is hard to figure out if it is me (probably mostly me regarding my racing skills) or a mechanical advantage a pad racer has over wheel racers. In any event there are no solutions to even the playing field and I will stop whining.
In case of either the pad or the wheel, they have to transmit to the game the steering angle, brake pressure, throttle, clutch and any buttons that might be pressed. So the wheel is more complex but it sends the same data to the game. Even if it didn't, a few bytes at USB speeds amounts to a small fraction of a millisecond.

shrike005
30-03-2016, 05:20
I was a long time wheel racer and now I drive with a DS4. Also, I drove same games with a wheel and a gamepad so I can easily compare the two. Wheel is faster. Period. It requires some practice, but so does the gamepad. Also, claiming that drivers on a DS4 ruin the game with irratic driving behavior is a bit insulting. I drive very precise and smooth with a DS4. It took me some time to master the wheel as well, in the beginning I couldn't drive it smoothly. Bottom line, if someone is skilled and accustomed to wheel and gamepad both, that someone will be faster with a wheel. Provided the same options are preset, like cockpit view and same assists or assists off. Not so much because of gentler input with a wheel but because of pedals, using which one can be more precise in terms of constant mid-curve throttle and proper braking.
Just my two cents.
Here is the link to my hot lap with Lotus 98T, which I think everyone will agree is very difficult to handle.

https://youtu.be/uRZ0D1ok0QQ

Prontopac
30-03-2016, 06:10
Points taken, but what is a DS4? Your time of 1:30+ at Monza is very impressive. I'll see if I can match it and I'll get back. Thanks for the info.

shrike005
30-03-2016, 06:18
DS4 - dual shocker 4, gamepad.
Oh, it's not that impressive time. Unfortunately, I don't have time for extensive tinkering with the car setup, I have like 1 hour in a day to play so I want to race instead of achieving best possible time. This championship with vintage '86 formula was driven with AI at 90%. I usually set the tires to be in optimum temperature and wear range, fuel consumption and wings and gears. I don't have time for bumps rebounds etc. I drive with all damage ON, all assists OFF except Traction control, tire wear on normal.
So it would be fairly easy to beat this time with this formula for someone who made a better setup.
I just wanted to show PCars can be driven quite nicely and smoothly with a gamepad and not just with a wheel.

Sankyo
30-03-2016, 07:43
Your comment regarding "Just because they drive with a pad don't mean they're slow..." is also a quandary for me. I use a Thrustmaster T300RS. It is a far more complex piece of equipment than a controller pad. It has to interpret wheel position, FFB, steering ratios, etc., compile that information and upload it to the game. Project Cars then processes that information and I see a visual result on my tv. Absolutely a marvelous response in fractions of seconds.

I assume, because I do not know for sure, that a signal from a controller pad is a bit less complicated to compile and that the bytes of information sent to Project Cars servers is less. And less translates to faster response uploading and downloading. If my theory is true, then it stands to reason that a skilled pad player should be faster online than a player using a wheel. "Thems are the breaks of the game." I understand that. I still enjoy racing and I still enjoy Project Cars. And note, there are a number of very fast wheel racers on line as well. So it is hard to figure out if it is me (probably mostly me regarding my racing skills) or a mechanical advantage a pad racer has over wheel racers. In any event there are no solutions to even the playing field and I will stop whining.
The days that controller input processing times could influence game performance are long gone (unless you have a hardware or software issue on your system). Hence, it's only about controller set-up and player skill level.

I'd say that driving accurately and smoothly requires greater skill with a controller, so in general people will be quicker with a wheel more easily.

shrike005
30-03-2016, 09:47
I'd say that driving accurately and smoothly requires greater skill with a controller, so in general people will be quicker with a wheel more easily.

You've nailed it.

maxx69
31-03-2016, 00:19
What type of events? Do you have a page or anything with details?

YouTube search the Marmite Cup , send me ( maxx69) a friend request and get an invite to our community .
We are just starting a Saturday event also .
Welcome to come and race with us :)

Prontopac
01-04-2016, 01:18
Shrike005, as I promised, I took you settings and created a match race on my PS4. I raced at 90% and made all the changes you listed. My best winning time was 1:34:348, but to do that I had to make several changes to my setup. I changed my traction control, brake balance, brake duct, gear ratios, and wastegate settings, but I did not have to change my suspension settings. Note that I also use Thrustmaster manual shifters. The changes made a significant difference as when I started I was in the mid 1:43's, but I doubt that I will ever reach 1:30 or less.

I'm suggesting that there are elements that wheel users deal with that control users do not. Manually shifting using your feet for example. How that translates into online racing I don't know exactly, but I hope to find out. And to be honest, out of a hundred sim racers, I would place my skills at about 55 to 60. Maybe just a bit above average, so you see even a slight mechanical advantage has a big impact on my ability to be competitive.

This assessment is not to disparage you or other skilled hand control users. I'm in awe at your ability to drive as well as you do. It's just that many others are not as skilled, along with a number of wheel users, and they can be frustrating. On the other hand, win or lose, clean races are a lot of fun especially when your car is set up nicely, and you got the track dialed in.

Thanks for taking the time to comment on my post. Some day I will look forward to crashing, I mean racing you at Monza.

Redslayer
01-04-2016, 04:48
2. Project Cars, while racing online, has never failed to assess me a 5 second penalty for a track violation, but I see cars all the time careening across the track bouncing off cars and I have yet to see a penalty assessed against them.

This alone has made me put down the game multiple times. Nothing DESTROYS my enjoyment worse that sliding a bit wide off a corner during a close battle, losing a bit of time already only to get slapped by a "5 second penalty" and losing 7-10 seconds on the person I was racing, completely eliminating any chance I had at the win because I got a little loose or tight coming off a corner. (Or worse yet, when you're forced wide and get eliminated from the race by a slow down penalty). And literally nothing is worse than doing a race that changes to rain, holding on to the car on slicks (barely) only to lose your win because you slide wide off the exit of a turn. And then there's always the glorious moment when someone in front of you gets one coming off a fast corner and you can't avoid their suddenly slowing car and you kill both of your races. Or, when you get it you instantly spin, that's always cool.

A few weeks ago if someone had asked me if I was going to get project cars 2, I would have told them flat out no. I was pissed about ovals not coming, frame drops and corner cut BS penalties.

Since then I figured out the frame rate issue and fixed it, and calmed down about ovals (still annoyed though). So I have eased my stance somewhat. I stopped buying DLC a few months ago because I found out ovals weren't coming, and I won't be buying any more DLC. However, I've decided I'll take a cautious approach and judge Pcars 2 on its own merits. But there's 2 things that will keep me from buying Pcars 2, a lack of ovals, and slow down penalties being in the game.

If ovals aren't in on release, then I won't buy it. And if they aren't, and aren't added for free, then I'll never buy it. But even if they are, if slow down penalties remain in the game, I will never buy the game. It's such an archaic system, it shouldn't be in a game that was developed after 1999. (In fact I actually had someone I've known for years joke about how games used to slow you down when you went off, and when I told him Pcars does it now he could hardly believe it lol).

If the penalties only happened on the inside of the most blatant cut spots, it would be one thing. But to be on the out side of a corner that's all dirt out there .... GTFOH. And some tracks like Watkins Glen, going real wide can give an unfair advantage in 2 spots, so simply make it decrease your speed (SLIGHTLY) while off the track in those spots to make up for it. But any of these timed slow down penalties that slow you down to 40 MPH... I refuse to buy a racing sim with that nonsense in it ever again.

A few better ways to handle it - Reduce grip on outside paved area's of corners, to make it so you lose time if you go wide due to understeer. - Have a very light decrease in speed when you're off track (Say if you go wide off turn one on Watkins Glen from the Apex on you'd lose about 5MPH which would make it about even.) - And for inside cuts, any lap but the last lap, give two warnings and then start adding 5 seconds for every cut, if you pit, you sit in the pits for however long, if you finish the race, you have 5 seconds added to your time. And if you go off on the last lap, then simply add 5 seconds to your time IF you gain a position after the cut that lap. Outside of a turn should never result in a penalty. IMO.

Really, nearly any penalty system would be more acceptable than the current dumb ass slow down penalty system.

Redslayer
01-04-2016, 04:55
The days that controller input processing times could influence game performance are long gone (unless you have a hardware or software issue on your system). Hence, it's only about controller set-up and player skill level.

I'd say that driving accurately and smoothly requires greater skill with a controller, so in general people will be quicker with a wheel more easily.

Depends on the track and situation. Sweeping corners or increasing/decreasing radius turns (due to higher precision) a wheel will have an advantage, tight hairpins or S turns (due to faster response) the controller usually has the advantage. Also, saving a car from a spin is often easier with a controller, because you're far less likely to not be able to get your steering back to center in time, thus avoiding over correcting.

I'd say over all, a wheel is harder to learn (Not only because of wheel inputs and knowing how to countersteer, but you also have to use your feet as well lol), but easier to be fast. While a controller is much easier to learn but harder to be fast. So really, it takes a bit less skill to use a controller overall, but it really comes down to the track on who has the advantage.

hkraft300
01-04-2016, 07:21
Reckon I have the disadvantage when catching a slide. In my real life cars oversteer has always been far easier to catch. This could be also due to controller settings.
I also have the disadvantage on consistency and tyre management. Precision on sweepers isn't too bad though.

shrike005
01-04-2016, 10:07
Prontopac,
I believe You just need to drive some more. Monza is a tricky track, although it looks easy. This particular Formula is a real devil and makes ones life miserable by any means. I actualy LOWERED the turbo pressure in order to drive faster. Yeah, I know it doesn't make sense, but higher the turbo pressure, more brutaly it kicks in at higher revs, hence gentler one has to be with the throtle in order to apply the turbo without wheel spin. Since it's hard to do that with fingers on a gamepad, I've lowered the turbo pressure so I can push the throtle without the wheelspin. Not significantly lower, but lower. And it took me a lot of time to master this Lotus98T, but invitational championship with that one was one of best moments I had in PCars.
I don't have internet at home - when I need to update something, I use my cellphone data plan, which I can't use for online racing because it's expensive and very slow. That's why I only play career. But I would be honored to join You and other clean racers who would accept me in their private lobbies because I do drive considerately. Once when and if I get internet...
Best regards,
Ivan

hkraft300
01-04-2016, 12:04
Ohh we talking about the 98T?
Gear ratio tuning goes a long way to making that thing driveable. Keep it on the boil. Below 5 bar it has plenty of traction but beyond that it starts to... you know... Grow hair on your chest...

shrike005
01-04-2016, 14:01
Yes, Lotus98T, the video I've posted is with Lotus98T.
It's a beast to drive.
It gave me a lot of frustration and a lot of satisfaction once I learned how to handle it.

Salty Dog
01-04-2016, 14:24
Im the opposite of many here, imo the DS4 is crisper, more responsive and faster and im much quicker on my ds4 than my thrustmaster, i also find it easier to use the DS4, especially on Rally games.
The very physics of how far you have to turn your wheel and how long it takes you, its simply not possible for a wheel to be as fast as a DS4, ive got both and put a long time into both, i think if you really know how to use a controller its an advantage over a wheel in many SIMS, in fact imo it could be an unfair advantage depending on how good the pad user is, just my 2c.

Prontopac
01-04-2016, 14:51
Shrike005,
First off, regarding the Lotus98T, I think we are both on the same page. I hadn't driven the vehicle much, and quickly found out that when the turbo kicked it it really did turn into a beast. My work around was like yours; I keep the wastegate setting at 5.00 and I lowered traction control to 6. A higher wastegate setting increased the oil temp and I'm assuming on a longer race, say about 10 laps the engine most likely would fail, so I opened the radiator opening to 40%.
Once, I got it to the point where I could accelerate with fears of loosing my back end I played with gear ratios. My max top end going down the straight was 198 mph(318.65 km). I was hoping to get 200 mph. My problem was braking. The brakes on the Lotus are really, really, good, but I could never really dial in the braking points as they are different from the GT3 cars I usually run at Monza. I found myself braking way to early at turn #1 and adjusting my speed. I know I would lose a second or so there and at the last chicane, which added up would be a full second or two per lap.
On the other hand, driving the Lotus98T is a lot of fun, and it would be really cool if there were more cars in its category.

konnos
01-04-2016, 15:46
Im the opposite of many here, imo the DS4 is crisper, more responsive and faster and im much quicker on my ds4 than my thrustmaster, i also find it easier to use the DS4, especially on Rally games.
The very physics of how far you have to turn your wheel and how long it takes you, its simply not possible for a wheel to be as fast as a DS4, ive got both and put a long time into both, i think if you really know how to use a controller its an advantage over a wheel in many SIMS, in fact imo it could be an unfair advantage depending on how good the pad user is, just my 2c.

Yes it can be easier, I wouldn't call it that though, but rather hussle-free. You don't need special steering ratios for different tracks etc and it is easier to apply extreme opposite lock. But if you are looking to play a simulation a wheel is the only option. If you can't catch oversteer it means you made a mistake and you need to correct the way you are driving and improve your line. A gamepad is an assist, but of course you lose the FFB feeling and the feel of racing with a wheel. It is no surprise that you can find many fast drivers using gamepad. I m not dissing, just in case my post is taken this way.

shrike005
01-04-2016, 18:15
There is a thin line what one should consider proper driving of simulation.
I'll give two examples easily noticed in many hot lap and time trial videos users who managed to drive EXTREMELY fast posted on youtube.
First - they often go full lock on very long and very fast corners and you can easily hear tires skidding. In real life, driver goes full lock in slowest sharpest turn on the track, on all others they steer gently, more or less.
Second - downshifting. In youtube videos, records are achieved with brutal downshifting, from 6th to 2nd gear in an instant, forcing the gearbox to slow the rotation of the wheels abrubtly. If one would do that in real life, one would get fired from the team instantly.
I understand this is a game and everything is allowed in order to win and achieve top times at time trials, but still, that kind of driving is VERY FAR from simulation. Be it with a wheel or with DS4. It's exploiting of game engine, not something a real driver with a real car would be able to do.

shrike005
01-04-2016, 18:21
Prontopac,
mastering the Lotus98T will give you an easily applied benefit later in the game when you'll maybe drive Formula A.
Once I got this game, I drove Formula A practice and had a hard time. Then I drove a championship with Lotus98T and learned to master it. After I won the championship, I've tried Formula A again. It was a breeze, piece of cake.
Currently I'm in a GT3 championship and hope to get invitational for Formula A.
So try shaving those times and You will benefit greatly.
If You'd like, I can upload hot lap from Sakkito so we can compete on one more track.
Best regards.

Krus Control
01-04-2016, 18:28
The 98T is a great place to learn a lot of stuff. I Enjoy it a lot more than any of the modern open wheelers. I feel like it's a more pure and the unrestricted racer. It can be a handful at 6.0 bar boost. But a good kind of handful.

Redslayer
01-04-2016, 20:30
Reckon I have the disadvantage when catching a slide. In my real life cars oversteer has always been far easier to catch. This could be also due to controller settings.
I also have the disadvantage on consistency and tyre management. Precision on sweepers isn't too bad though.

Real life sliding and video game sliding, no matter how good of a 'sim' it is, will never be the same lol. There is just so much more feeling in a car in real life than a game could every give you. You can feel the absolute instant a car starts to get light in real life, but in a game, there will always be a bit more delay, because at best you'll feel it in your hands (through FFB) but a lot of times its more based on visual feedback. You'll simply never get the Gforce feeling, or weight transfer feeling you get in real life. In fact in real life, you can often feel a car about to begin losing grip long before it actually does, just based on the feeling of the entire car.

I've caught slides before they even started in real life that would have ended in at the very least, a serious drift in any sim lol.

Prontopac
01-04-2016, 21:13
Shrike005, yeah, that would be cool. When you have the time, of course...