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View Full Version : Some thoughts about the top single seaters in the game and copyright...



Doge
01-04-2016, 21:38
I bet you already read all the drama around Automobilista with the FOM copyright attack. It got me thinking about our Formula A since it has a handful of liveries which are sort of obvious Ferrari, McLaren (pre 2014), Williams (pre-Martini), Toyota (just blue)... spin-offs.

Of course, these are nowhere near as blatant as what Reiza did. I guess their liveries was what make FOM go bananas (as again the FA has obvious 2011 F1 unique features, so it canīt be the shape), but I would really love to hear from devs, if possible, the fine lines you have to walk around when it comes to F1-ish fictional cars.

And I know this wonīt happen, but Iīm sure many of us would love to have a modern F1-ish vehicle simply from a different year. It really is surprising that once you go the fictional route and can nitpick what you want to do without worrying about what license you can afford, the decission was to include 2011 cars. They really have low appeal compared to other potential choices.

I understand it was probably OK when the development started to chase a spin-off of these cars, but as time goes by one canīt avoid feeling that it was the wrong call. Surely chasing a late V-10 era car with the pretty wing proportions would have made the Formula A a more interesting vehicle than it is now.

E_Luckow
01-04-2016, 22:04
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?46230-Reiza-Studios-Automobilista-Copyright-Issue-!

LukeC
02-04-2016, 00:48
I bet you already read all the drama around Automobilista with the FOM copyright attack. It got me thinking about our Formula A since it has a handful of liveries which are sort of obvious Ferrari, McLaren (pre 2014), Williams (pre-Martini), Toyota (just blue)... spin-offs.

Of course, these are nowhere near as blatant as what Reiza did. I guess their liveries was what make FOM go bananas (as again the FA has obvious 2011 F1 unique features, so it canīt be the shape), but I would really love to hear from devs, if possible, the fine lines you have to walk around when it comes to F1-ish fictional cars.

The fine line is such that if FOM wanted to make an IP infringement complaint against SMS it could. Subsequently PCars would get taken down on steam and in other 3rd party online marketplaces, no questions asked.

The reason this won't happen is because SMS would simply take the party making the complaint to court and most likely win due to the fact that the PCars assets are so dissimilar from the licensed ones as to make the resemblance purely coincidental. FOM would subsequently have to reimburse SMS for damages, which could run into tens of millions of dollars. The hassle therefore wouldn't be worth it.

With Reiza the situation is different due to the similarities to the licensed content being greater, which would make Reiza reluctant to go to court with it. FOM, if it is FOM, knows this and has made the complaint.

Reiza will in turn most likely opt to suck it up and remove or change any content that could possibly be the source of the complaint, before being reinstated on steam. No one will reimburse them for damages though. That to me is the problem with IP laws; you are guilty by default and have to prove your innocence.

Rambo_Commando
02-04-2016, 02:24
In the FA tier, there are two Williams look a like liveries. The 1997 Rothmans livery and the 1998 Winfield livery. Not to mention the yellow Jordan look a like and the Arrows look a like. There is a Mercedes look a like in Formula B.

Cheesenium
02-04-2016, 04:05
With Reiza the situation is different due to the similarities to the licensed content being greater, which would make Reiza reluctant to go to court with it. FOM, if it is FOM, knows this and has made the complaint.


This is false, because the copyright laws requires the copied content to be exactly the same as the original with less than 3 differences between both to be valid. If you looked at the Formula Reiza or any open wheels in AMS, there are at least 3 different features that are different, like the diffusor has one less fin, the side has a more pronounced bump and different bumpers. The liveries are suspicious but the main issues were the user made liveries on RD.

And many games on PC does something similar from fake NASCARS in rfactor 2 or fake GP2 in R3E.

Even back in WMD, SMS also follow with the minimum 3 differences in the Audi A4 DTM and R18 looked alike to avoid and invalidate any copyright claim because it is a complete different from the real car in terms of copyright laws. That is the same thing being done by Reiza.

I dont know why some people think Reiza is the only one doing this or they deserve to get sued by FOM.

LukeC
02-04-2016, 05:14
The fine line is such that if FOM wanted to make an IP infringement complaint against SMS it could. Subsequently PCars would get taken down on steam and in other 3rd party online marketplaces, no questions asked.

The reason this won't happen is because SMS would simply take the party making the complaint to court and most likely win due to the fact that the PCars assets are so dissimilar from the licensed ones as to make the resemblance purely coincidental. FOM would subsequently have to reimburse SMS for damages, which could run into tens of millions of dollars. The hassle therefore wouldn't be worth it.

With Reiza the situation is different due to the similarities to the licensed content being greater, which would make Reiza reluctant to go to court with it. FOM, if it is FOM, knows this and has made the complaint.

Reiza will in turn most likely opt to suck it up and remove or change any content that could possibly be the source of the complaint, before being reinstated on steam. No one will reimburse them for damages though. That to me is the problem with IP laws; you are guilty by default and have to prove your innocence.


This is false, because the copyright laws requires the copied content to be exactly the same as the original with less than 3 differences between both to be valid. If you looked at the Formula Reiza or any open wheels in AMS, there are at least 3 different features that are different, like the diffusor has one less fin, the side has a more pronounced bump and different bumpers. The liveries are suspicious but the main issues were the user made liveries on RD.

And many games on PC does something similar from fake NASCARS in rfactor 2 or fake GP2 in R3E.

Even back in WMD, SMS also follow with the minimum 3 differences in the Audi A4 DTM and R18 looked alike to avoid and invalidate any copyright claim because it is a complete different from the real car in terms of copyright laws. That is the same thing being done by Reiza.

I dont know why some people think Reiza is the only one doing this or they deserve to get sued by FOM.

The point is that absolutely no copyright or IP infringement need to be present for something to be taken down. You could create something thats 100% original and it will still get taken down if somebody claims that it infringes on their copyright or IP. The onus is then on you to prove that your content does not infringe and it's up to you to seek damages from the party or person who made the claim.

With regard to Reiza perusing this in court, certainly that option is available to them, but it will be expensive and a victory is not 100% guaranteed. If I were them I would just remove or change the offending content. No livery is worth this much hassle.

Cheesenium
02-04-2016, 05:54
The point is that absolutely no copyright or IP infringement need to be present for something to be taken down. You could create something thats 100% original and it will still get taken down if somebody claims that it infringes on their copyright or IP. The onus is then on you to prove that your content does not infringe and it's up to you to seek damages from the party or person who made the claim.

With regard to Reiza perusing this in court, certainly that option is available to them, but it will be expensive and a victory is not 100% guaranteed. If I were them I would just remove or change the offending content. No livery is worth this much hassle.

Copyright is designed to protect the original creators from having their work stolen. I agree that the current copyright law does not have the consistency in other fields of law where the "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply in most copyright claims. This is not the main point of the discussion.

My main problem with this is, most people are wedging in a distinction that what Reiza did was wrong while others (from R3E to rFactor) had done no wrong. Despite literally these small developers on PC had been doing it for years with some are even more blatant than others. For example, R3E does have quite a few FR2 liveries that closely resembles the real cars which it is essentially no difference on what Reiza did.

I dont know why are you pushing a distinction between Reiza and other developers. No doubt it will be a costly court case for Reiza but it doesnt mean it will be cheap if NASCAR comes after ISI for their fake NASCAR.

LukeC
02-04-2016, 06:16
Copyright is designed to protect the original creators from having their work stolen. I agree that the current copyright law does not have the consistency in other fields of law where the "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply in most copyright claims. This is not the main point of the discussion.

My main problem with this is, most people are wedging in a distinction that what Reiza did was wrong while others (from R3E to rFactor) had done no wrong. Despite literally these small developers on PC had been doing it for years with some are even more blatant than others. For example, R3E does have quite a few FR2 liveries that closely resembles the real cars which it is essentially no difference on what Reiza did.

I dont know why are you pushing a distinction between Reiza and other developers. No doubt it will be a costly court case for Reiza but it doesnt mean it will be cheap if NASCAR comes after ISI for their fake NASCAR.

I'm not pushing a distinction between Reiza and other developers. In fact I think it is unfair that Reiza got picked on. The distinction I am drawing here is that Reiza might have a harder time defending their content in a court of law than some other developers. You might think that this is a case that Reiza can't lose, but stranger things have happened in courts.

I'm also not particularly concerned with who did more or less wrong here. As I've said earlier, I don't like the fact that your content could be taken down even if it's 100% original just because somebody has made a complaint. I think IP or copyright infringement should have to be proven in a court of law before this can be allowed to happen.

John Hargreaves
02-04-2016, 06:57
That new Ferrari F1 livery looks suspiciously like our Mixlub design, I reckon we should file a lawsuit.

Doge
02-04-2016, 13:05
That new Ferrari F1 livery looks suspiciously like our Mixlub design, I reckon we should file a lawsuit.

There, there. Then take the compensation and buy the license to reproduce the 2004 F1 field. :p

Otherworld
02-04-2016, 14:02
I think SMS should make a version of Formula A that is "F1 as it should be". No DRS shit, open engine regulations, simple aerodynamics, large tyres for extra mechanical grip, no electronic assists. Then once competent people get in charge of F1 and change the rules so that it will be like our own FA, sue F1 and make money.

cluck
02-04-2016, 14:46
I think SMS should make a version of Formula A that is "F1 as it should be". No DRS shit, open engine regulations, simple aerodynamics, large tyres for extra mechanical grip, no electronic assists. Then once competent people get in charge of F1 and change the rules so that it will be like our own FA, sue F1 and make money.We've already got one of those in the game, it's called the Lotus 49 :p