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Raven403
04-04-2016, 16:03
Greetings Pcars Forum. This is a General Inquiry about which class in the game BESIDES GT3 has a good set of balanced cars. I know Ive seen a lot of people say GT4 is pretty out of balance, but I cant seem to find anything to suggest any other multi-car class is way out of whack, what's the consensus?

LMP1, LMP2, LMP900, Old DTM, Group 5, etc.

Androphonomania
04-04-2016, 16:15
Group A is okay, when the sierra is run with standard turbo pressure. The Mercedes is a little bit faster but overall were the best races. Had/Have a league running with it, those three.

Raven403
04-04-2016, 16:20
Group A is okay, when the sierra is run with standard turbo pressure. The Mercedes is a little bit faster but overall were the best races. Had/Have a league running with it, those three.

Awesome ok, good to know.

Has your group run any of the LMP classes?

hkraft300
04-04-2016, 16:52
GT1 seem very close. McLaren F1 got a bit of a polish to run with the Merc CLK-LM iirc. McLaren seems to dominate the leaderboards though I suspect only because the Merc loses in popularity.
LMP1/2 may be close on endurance and mix of tracks. Not sure about the reliability of the RWD P20 LMP2 car but it seems a bit quicker than the rest. Running full power may not be competitive for either RWD cars.
The Audi R8 and Bentley Speed 8 are tight in the LMP900 class but the BMW V12 LMR lags behind.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-04-2016, 17:02
LMP2 always seemed quite well balanced overall, though some (one, at least) of the cars requires a slightly different style due to having a turbo, and also a bit problematic dampers (same general rates as the others, but a different digression knee, making them effectively stiffer).

Trans-Am (Audi 90 IMSA and Ford Mustang Trans-Am) are also quite well balanced though very different to drive. Leaderboards generally show the Audi a bit faster but I think it's partly also because it's more popular. In my experience they're quite close and the drivers matter more usually. You can also detune the Audi 90 with the wastegate, unfortunately the Trans-Am can't be detuned via restrictor.

GT1 should work, at least if you use the F1 GTR's restrictor options. The default restrictor is the "realistic" one, the larger one is there to allow it to compete against the Mercedes, but looking at the leaderboards it might end up a bit too fast with maximum restrictor.

Group 5 is good afaik, not 100% sure if there are issues with one car being able to run a higher boost pressure for longer, but all out speed seems close for both.

Group A is also good, as long as you keep an eye on the Sierra's boost levels.

LMP1 will vary somewhat based on the track and such, but seems to do well for itself overall, the differences aren't massive.

LMP900 does quite well for the Audi R8 and the Bentley Speed 8, the BMW V12 LMR lags somewhat.

Road cars could be made to balance out quite well (for road cars anyway), but the current spread doesn't achieve it at all. There are some superduper fast cars in Road A that should be in a class of their own (Radical, P1, CTR3, apollo, Atom V8), there are two cars in Road B that belong together with the slower cars in Road A (Mono and F1), there's a clear road C1 car in Road B (Mustang GT), and so on... I have posted about this previously, with only a few changes things could improve massively. =(

Vintage GT (Ford MkIV and Lotus 40) look surprisingly balanced.

FS7
04-04-2016, 17:09
Road cars could be made to balance out quite well (for road cars anyway), but the current spread doesn't achieve it at all. There are some superduper fast cars in Road A that should be in a class of their own (Radical, P1, CTR3, apollo, Atom V8), there are two cars in Road B that belong together with the slower cars in Road A (Mono and F1), there's a clear road C1 car in Road B (Mustang GT), and so on... I have posted about this previously, with only a few changes things could improve massively. =(
Imo SMS should split some road classes, something like Road A1, Road A2, Road B1, Road B2. It wouldn't be perfectly balanced but it would be better than the current road classes.

havocc
04-04-2016, 17:23
Road cars could be made to balance out quite well (for road cars anyway), but the current spread doesn't achieve it at all. There are some superduper fast cars in Road A that should be in a class of their own (Radical, P1, CTR3, apollo, Atom V8)

In that hypothetical "super Road A" grp should be placed Huayra Bc when it's released, Zonda Revolucion will compete with longtail and CLK instead :rolleyes:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-04-2016, 17:26
Yeah. Road B1/B2 is a bit trickier to split without creating a very small class (Pagani Zonda Cinque and the Lykan are the fastest there, Huayra underperforming a bit but possibly close to their level, rest aren't that high), but the changes wouldn't have to be big:


It wouldn't take much to make the road classes a lot better balanced. Here's my "dream lineup".

Road A1/Road S: Ariel Atom V8 500, GUMPERT apollo S, McLaren P1, Radical RXC Turbo, Ruf CTR3 (and the Radbul)
Road A2/Road A: BAC Mono, McLaren 12C, McLaren F1, Pagani Huayra, Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster, Ruf Rt 12 R, W Motors Lykan HyperSport
Road B: Ariel Atom 300, Ariel Atom Mugen, Aston Martin Vantage GT12, Audi R8 V10+, BMW 1-Series M Coupe StanceWorks, Caterham Superlight R500, KTM X-Bow R, Mercedes SLS AMG, Ruf CTR, Ruf RGT-8, Scion FR-S Rocket Bunny
Road C1: BMW 1-Series M Coupe, Ford Mustang GT, Mercedes A45 AMG, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX FQ-360, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X FQ-400, Renault Megane R.S. 275 Trophy-R
Road C2: Audi A1 quattro, Ford Focus RS, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI TME, Renault Megane R.S. 265
Road D: Caterham Seven Classic, Scion FR-S, Toyota 86, Toyota GT-86

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-04-2016, 17:27
In that hypothetical "super Road A" grp should be placed Huayra Bc when it's released, Zonda Revolucion will compete with longtail and CLK instead :rolleyes:Revolucion will in all likelihood go into the GT1X category, since it's not an actual GT1 car. I wonder if the Huayra BC has the chops to compete with the Road S/Road A1 cars, it is unknown how much quicker it is than the base Huayra...

Raven403
04-04-2016, 18:00
LMP2 always seemed quite well balanced overall, though some (one, at least) of the cars requires a slightly different style due to having a turbo, and also a bit problematic dampers (same general rates as the others, but a different digression knee, making them effectively stiffer).

Trans-Am (Audi 90 IMSA and Ford Mustang Trans-Am) are also quite well balanced though very different to drive. Leaderboards generally show the Audi a bit faster but I think it's partly also because it's more popular. In my experience they're quite close and the drivers matter more usually. You can also detune the Audi 90 with the wastegate, unfortunately the Trans-Am can't be detuned via restrictor.

GT1 should work, at least if you use the F1 GTR's restrictor options. The default restrictor is the "realistic" one, the larger one is there to allow it to compete against the Mercedes, but looking at the leaderboards it might end up a bit too fast with maximum restrictor.

Group 5 is good afaik, not 100% sure if there are issues with one car being able to run a higher boost pressure for longer, but all out speed seems close for both.

Group A is also good, as long as you keep an eye on the Sierra's boost levels.

LMP1 will vary somewhat based on the track and such, but seems to do well for itself overall, the differences aren't massive.

LMP900 does quite well for the Audi R8 and the Bentley Speed 8, the BMW V12 LMR lags somewhat.

Road cars could be made to balance out quite well (for road cars anyway), but the current spread doesn't achieve it at all. There are some superduper fast cars in Road A that should be in a class of their own (Radical, P1, CTR3, apollo, Atom V8), there are two cars in Road B that belong together with the slower cars in Road A (Mono and F1), there's a clear road C1 car in Road B (Mustang GT), and so on... I have posted about this previously, with only a few changes things could improve massively. =(

Vintage GT (Ford MkIV and Lotus 40) look surprisingly balanced.

Awesome stuff Jussi thanks

If I may, since I haven't spent a ton of time in the LMPs in a while. Are the LMPs all pretty balanced but over a long distance? Like will the Aston come good in shorter races where the Audi is good on long runs because its better on fuel? Or are they all similarly paced throughout? I know the TS040 is all over the tops on the LBs with the RWD

FS7
04-04-2016, 18:51
Zonda Revolucion will compete with longtail and CLK instead :rolleyes:

Revolucion will in all likelihood go into the GT1X category, since it's not an actual GT1 car.
In the videos I saw on Youtube Zonda Revolucion is GT1X just like the Zonda R.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-04-2016, 19:30
Awesome stuff Jussi thanks

If I may, since I haven't spent a ton of time in the LMPs in a while. Are the LMPs all pretty balanced but over a long distance? Like will the Aston come good in shorter races where the Audi is good on long runs because its better on fuel? Or are they all similarly paced throughout? I know the TS040 is all over the tops on the LBs with the RWDUnfortunately I don't have personal experience on that really, hopefully someone can chime in. This is indeed a concern for these cars.

hkraft300
04-04-2016, 23:28
I think some leagues are banning the TS040 for the moment. Its ultimately the quickest with the P30 (P30 has had a lot more time put into it by players) but I think the P30 will fall behind in an endurance race. It can't keep running full power without damaging the engine. Aston isn't bad on fuel (can dip below 6 litres/lap at le mans and still do 3:2x times all day) and I personally think its better than the P30 in the long run. Doesn't get much love online though (PS4 public). It'll keep with the turbo stuff at high altitude too simply for all the grunt its packing.
The TDi and Marek are pretty much out of contention. ETron I think can challenge the TS040.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-04-2016, 08:13
The TDi and Marek are pretty much out of contention. ETron I think can challenge the TS040.Any reason why the R18 TDI specifically is considered slow? From what I could see looking at the leaderboards the gap between it and the e-tron wasn't really all that big at all, especially on tracks where both had a lot of effort put in, and on many tracks the TDI was faster. I doesn't seem like it can take the e-tron on at Le Mans though, but overall it shouldn't be that bad. And the Marek did even better than that against the e-tron, seemed like closer to 50/50 which one was the quickest. Something about how they play out over long distances?

APR193
05-04-2016, 08:37
I hear Formula Rookie is pretty well balanced, Ginetta Juniors too ;)

(I play offline only, haven't looked at leaderboards so all of this comes from what the ai can do/my competitiveness with these cars) Group 5 is quite good but the BMW just edges it, the Ford (in default settings) is a lot more tricky to drive imo. BMW is very easy to be consistent and on top of that is slightly faster on most tracks.

LMP2 is probably the best in terms of balance, although the AI seem to be much better in the Marek than anything else.

LMP1 isn't bad but again the Ai don't seem well balanced between cars. The Toyota they are very slow in, always have the Audi E-tron ahead on everything else in my races with just me in the Toyota able to live with them, while my teammate struggles around outside the top 10.

I find (can't remember what the class is called) the Ford MKIV and Lotus Type 40 to be very well balanced, infact almost identical top speed/handling etc qualities but still quite different to drive.

havocc
05-04-2016, 09:00
Any reason why the R18 TDI specifically is considered slow? From what I could see looking at the leaderboards the gap between it and the e-tron wasn't really all that big at all, especially on tracks where both had a lot of effort put in, and on many tracks the TDI was faster. I doesn't seem like it can take the e-tron on at Le Mans though, but overall it shouldn't be that bad. And the Marek did even better than that against the e-tron, seemed like closer to 50/50 which one was the quickest. Something about how they play out over long distances?

I haven't used R18 Tdi that much but when i tried it it felt more twitchy than E-Tron and Ts-040 probably because of the engine and lack of ERS on front wheels on corner exit...


I think some leagues are banning the TS040 for the moment

Well, have you tried a race with standing start with Ts-040? It's a bullet at accelerating and with proper gearing and hybrid power usage is a real beast

RomKnight
05-04-2016, 10:57
About the Gr.5 they're perfectly matched. Different styles to drive though.

Even H vs paddles is not an issue (although, IMO paddles makes it harder :D )

We ended a league a couple of weeks ago with them and I can say with confidence that we could use more cars. Was a success and the difference will be in the driver. Don't run the turbo on the capri above 2.70 (2.50 for the bimmer IIRC - i drove the capri so don't quote me) on races with more than 45m. Actually don't do it at certain tracks like Zhuhai for 45m races as you might find yourself pacing to finish the race.

There's too ways you can choose the car:
- it suits your driving better
- it suits the tracks chosen for the league better ( although this one is debatable because the driver makes all the difference from my experience )

We also did a multiclass 2h endurance last year and LMP2 and GT3 are really a matter of taste. On the LMP2 the driver would be the difference (as the driving style that can suit one car better than the other). On the GT3, tracks do matter as some cars get the lap times with less effort than others on the same driver much than Gr5 or LMP2 if you ask me.
My 2c

hkraft300
05-04-2016, 15:27
Any reason why the R18 TDI specifically is considered slow? From what I could see looking at the leaderboards the gap between it and the e-tron wasn't really all that big at all, especially on tracks where both had a lot of effort put in, and on many tracks the TDI was faster. I doesn't seem like it can take the e-tron on at Le Mans though, but overall it shouldn't be that bad. And the Marek did even better than that against the e-tron, seemed like closer to 50/50 which one was the quickest. Something about how they play out over long distances?

Leaderboards can have the effort of single-minded obsession to get every corner absolutely perfect for the best possible pace. The TDi is hard work to keep it pointed.
The Marek has a great motor and feels great to drive. It'll suffer at altitude and doesn't have the grunt of the TS040.
Again, in capable hands and with some practice/tuning/development any of these are competitive.


Well, have you tried a race with standing start with Ts-040? It's a bullet at accelerating and with proper gearing and hybrid power usage is a real beast

Hence why I think some leagues are banning it. That thing is a blip on the horizon before the rest get in 3rd gear bloody hell.
Unfairly though, I think. I don't see it to be so strong its ban-worthy.

BTW how's the GT1X compare to the GT1? I've run a couple of MP races with the 2 classes mixed it was fun. Might be worth a look?