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Storris
13-04-2016, 09:36
This cracks me up every time I press play. Please, for the love of god give me something I can use!


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1669324602/snaefell-mountain-course-3d-laser-scan/widget/video.html

KickStarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1669324602/snaefell-mountain-course-3d-laser-scan)
Twitter (https://twitter.com/IoMLaserScan)
Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100012251730726)

Please follow, share, like & retweet etc...

_____________________________________

I thought I'd add some interesting info for you all, the number of backers, and where they came from an % of total pledged so far. I'll update this daily/at % milestones.

We're over 5%, and pCars are at 21 backers, so updated stats.

forum.projectcarsgame.com - 21 - 45.42%
members.iracing.com - 7 - 18.63%
assettocorsa.net - 5 - 7.84%
reddit.com - 2 - 6.54%
twitter.com - 1 - 4.90%
manxforums.com - 1 - 3.27%
forum.piboso.com - 1 - 1.63%

External - 6 - 9.31%
Embedded widget (!?!) - 1 - 1.63%
Kickstarter - 1 - 0.82%

Next update 10%/25 pCars backers.
_____________________________________

I've also attached the quote form 3dlasermapping.com. Happy travels
232907
_____________________________________

Further interesting info:

Here are a list of links to similar thread in other forums. pCars & iRacing are by far the most active forums at the minute, and this pCars thread is about x2 as active as its iRacing counterpart.

iRacing (http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/3477450.page)
Assetto Corsa (http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/isle-of-man-3d-scan-kickstarter-1.31996/)
GP-Bikes/PiBoSo (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg53309#msg53309)
ISI/rFactor (http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/28594-Isle-of-Man-TT-Mountain-Course-Track-Scan)
RaceDepartment (http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/would-you-be-interested-in-a-laser-scanned-isle-of-man-tt.120475/)
SRMZ (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=11342)
Steam (http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/12/364042063116761207/) - Banned!

But we aren't everywhere, so if readers could do what they can to share the kickstarter via Twitter, Facebook, online race lobbies and any other interweb places you spend your time, it'd be appreciated.

cluck
13-04-2016, 10:06
On the face of it, this is a very noble idea and one that 'could' work. Provided the laser-scanning cost isn't too prohibitive, I don't doubt that you'd raise enough money across the various sim forums to make a go of it. Assuming the data would be absolutely royalty free - and would remain so in perpetuity (ie, it isn't sold to one single development company at a later date) - then it really does have some mileage.

My only concern - such that it is - is how the shops and householders feel about having their buildings present in the data, if that level of detail is captured in those scans.

Certainly be interested in hearing more once the kickstarter is, erm, kickstarted :)

Good luck :yes:.

girlracerTracey
13-04-2016, 10:17
I applaud the initiative and the idea.

Has anyone considered the situation yet concerning the IOM Tourist Board as regards the possible licensing issues involved? Just curious as a group of us were considering options with regard to the IOM TT track a while back.. I suppose if no commercial game developer is involved then hopefully this would not present itself as an issue?

grT

Storris
13-04-2016, 10:42
Hi Cluck,

The laser scanning costs are very reasonable at approx 10,000 (just waiting on official written paperwork). That's 10/each for 1,000 supporters, 5 for 2,000. The sim community is plenty big enough to make this happen, and support doesn't have to be limited to the sim community. This data will have value to the Island's heritage & tourist industries, for a start.

The KickStarter is going to be very open with its intentions about data ownership, stating as I am here that the data will be freely available for whoever wants it. I can't promise developers will use it to build free content, but I can promise they wont monopolise the data. However, I do want to be in a position to ensure a quality 'free to use' track is built, so building a development team is going to need a big push, and as much support from the community as the scan funding.

Householders & shops need not be concerned; although the scan data is going to be ~100% accurate topographically, it will not include personal & identifying textural details such as the colour of a house or what's inside the windows. Developers will have to create these from scratch, even if they use publicly available images to do so. Compared to Google Street View, this is practically anonymous.
http://www.terrainsurveys.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/3d_laser_scanning_large.jpg

Hi girlracerTracey,

Yes, licensing is only a concern for commercial products using the TT brand. As these are public roads the scan and track development, even by professional teams building a non-TT version of the track, can use the data as they wish.

Thank you both for your support.

cluck
13-04-2016, 10:51
Cool :). Providing the laserscan data and as much texture detail as possible to anybody that wants it would be fantastic - it would save an enormous amount of work from a developer's perspective. On that note, would this data be available to professional developers like SMS, for example, to include in commercial products, or this strictly for modders for non-commercial gain?

From an altruistic perspective, I'd like it to be set in stone that no single developer can ever 'buy' the data and make it their exclusive, no matter how much money is waved at yourself or the kickstarter backers. As for funding, I wouldn't be surprised if you meet your funding goals in days (or less). Provide funding as low as 1 (if that's possible?) and nobody will bat an eyelid at sticking a quid in to help :).

Diamond_Eyes
13-04-2016, 11:21
Same as girlracerTracey, you mean your project is to model the accessible public roads and environment located on the Isle of Man that are used, from time to time, as the IOM TT Mountain Course? Just thinking about legal side and the words and description you may or may not use and who might get upset. Good luck. The developers picking up and using your model will have the potential license issues. Good luck and hope you get the support you deserve.

Storris
13-04-2016, 11:27
Hi Diamond_Eyes,

Yes, same answer as to grT. Licencing is only a concern for TT branded commercial products. There are also likely to be separate but related PR concerns for big-sim developers trying to commercialise non-TT versions for their own platforms, but these will be reputational rather than legal issues, and neither will affect community led projects.

Thank you for your support.

Cluck,

If they wave over 10,000 in my face I'll take it, give them the data, and use the money to produce a new scan. :D
It's just not worth anyone's time to try and monopolise something that can be reproduced fairly easily and relatively cheaply.

Tez
13-04-2016, 14:40
Who do I send my fiver to ?

John Hargreaves
13-04-2016, 15:06
Google maps never asked me when they photographed my house, so I would imagine the same kind of laws that apply to photography might apply here. I'd chip in a few quid to help this idea, but I guess the relevant game engine would have to be able to handle it.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-04-2016, 15:17
Looking at Google Earth, the track should just about fit within a 15x20km square, call it 20x25km at the outside. Anyone remember what the engine limitations with regard to the co-ordinate space were? Nords+GP fits in roughly 8x5km, so we're talking a damn sight larger area, and much longer distance as well.

Mad Al
13-04-2016, 15:23
Looking at Google Earth, the track should just about fit within a 15x20km square, call it 20x25km at the outside. Anyone remember what the engine limitations with regard to the co-ordinate space were? Nords+GP fits in roughly 8x5km, so we're talking a damn sight larger area, and much longer distance as well.

16km square I believe

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-04-2016, 15:30
Yeah, seems like it. So it probably wouldn't fit the current co-ordinate space, unless they work some magic on the engine for that specific track.

havocc
13-04-2016, 15:56
Yeah, seems like it. So it probably wouldn't fit the current co-ordinate space, unless they work some magic on the engine for that specific track.

Or mid-track loading screens :rolleyes:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-04-2016, 16:18
Oh well, developing new streaming technology for the circuits would be helpful when they'd finally get around to making their open world sim racer. =)

havocc
13-04-2016, 16:54
Oh well, developing new streaming technology for the circuits would be helpful when they'd finally get around to making their open world sim racer. =)

Something like burnout paradise but without arcade physics?

Storris
13-04-2016, 17:12
Not pCars too! AC has 16x16 limits. Fortunately, there are at least 3 engines capable of using the track, GPL, iRacing, and GP-Bikes, I think rFactor is capable too but have no word from them to be sure. If all goes to plan, there'll be another on the way by the launch date. This isn't including the PS2 version for TT Superbikes. If anyone's interested, I think TORCS can handle it too.

So, if we can build the track, it will be up to devs whether or not they make modifications to accommodate it.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-04-2016, 17:21
Something like burnout paradise but without arcade physics?I'd think more on the lines of TDU or Forza Horizon, but not necessarily that based on either. A realistic open-worlder is basically the culmination of all my hopes and dreams for a car game. =)


Not pCars too! AC has 16x16 limits.16x16=256, it's such a nice number. =)

Storris
13-04-2016, 18:09
Does it have to be a 16x16 grid, or can the shape be massaged? The course covers an area of ~150Km2

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-04-2016, 19:14
Does it have to be a 16x16 grid, or can the shape be massaged? The course covers an area of ~150Km2AFAIK the co-ordinate system is a 16x16km grid so that you have 8km in every direction from 0,0. I have no idea how easy it'd be for them to change it.

Storris
13-04-2016, 19:37
Ok, thank you Jussi.

On another optimistic note, Project Cars 2 is in development.

Maybe.......?

Pisshead30
14-04-2016, 08:13
Getting the TT course properly on a game would be the ultimate track in my opinion, still play tt superbikes on ps2 love it

Ian Bell
14-04-2016, 08:38
If you can get that laser scan for 10k please put me in touch with the company. We're being asked much more than that for circuits about 15 times shorter.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-04-2016, 08:43
That bit did seem odd to me, if it was that cheap normally then surely it'd be a no-brainer to get laser scans always. Maybe there was a miscommunication and it was 10 000 pounds per mile or something... =)

Invincible
14-04-2016, 08:50
10k seems really really low for a track like this. From what I've heard it's around 30k € for a ~3 mile track here in Germany.

Ian Bell
14-04-2016, 08:57
That bit did seem odd to me, if it was that cheap normally then surely it'd be a no-brainer to get laser scans always. Maybe there was a miscommunication and it was 10 000 pounds per mile or something... =)

Correct. We'd scan everything. Again, it might be an accurate quote and if so, excellent! I want their contact number :)

Ian Bell
14-04-2016, 08:57
10k seems really really low for a track like this. From what I've heard it's around 30k € for a ~3 mile track here in Germany.

That's what we're being asked, plus expenses.

Storris
14-04-2016, 09:56
That's what we're being asked, plus expenses.

Hi Ian, thank you for the response.

I sent an email to info@slightlymadstudios yesterday.

On the costs; Lidar equipment (survey grade equipment) can be hired for approx 1500/day & purchased for less than 50,000. Even coupled with the costs of an operator and data processing, I can't understand why everything isn't being scanned. There are undoubtedly licensing & access issues for private circuits, but public roads, the Isle of Man & Targa Florio for starters, these should all be well within reach. But to be clear, this project is not hiring equipment for a DIY effort. We will be hiring professionals recommended to us by the team which scanned Rockingham Raceway for Live for Speed.

I only have the unofficial email from them at present, but when I receive the formal quotation I'll be posting it on the Kickstarter campaign along with a copy of the free distribution license that we'll be using for the data. If I can get your backing for the project, just a statement that you'll at least look at including it in game pC2, I'll give you anything you ask for!

Mark Silcock
14-04-2016, 12:01
These are capable of 10mm resolution which might not be fine enough but would be much cheaper alternative to manned tripods.

Set the GPS course and let it go.
http://uas.trimble.com/ux5-hp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTYiT_lmy4

With the drone and photo scanning techniques I have seen is Laser Scanning still the holy grail it once was?

Storris
14-04-2016, 12:24
These are capable of 10mm resolution which might not be fine enough but would be much cheaper alternative to manned tripods.

With the drone and photo scanning techniques I have seen is Laser Scanning still the holy grail it once was?

Hi Mark,

The scanners we'll be using have a 3mm resolution. UAV LiDar isn't even 10mm accurate, and capturing the hires photos for scanning would be a far more labour intensive exercise than even static scanning of a track.

Due to the nature of the Mountain Course, it's sheer length and the fact that it is an open public road with no pavements in places, mobile scanning is the method the scanners will be using.

Mark Silcock
14-04-2016, 12:32
Hi Mark,

The scanners we'll be using have a 3mm resolution. UAV LiDar isn't even 10mm accurate, and capturing the hires photos for scanning would be a far more labour intensive exercise than even static scanning of a track.


From Trimble:
High Precision for Superior Deliverables
The best geospatial deliverables require accurate and timely image and position data. The UX5 HP will lead the market in precise data by integrating a high-performance GNSS receiver and a new Sony a7R camera. The Sony a7R is an industry leading, full-frame sensor, 36MP high-resolution camera. The camera in addition to the GNSS receiver achieves a leading level of image accuracy—orthomosaics resolution down to 1 cm and 3D models with up to 1,000 pts/m2. Post-processed kinematic (PPK) GNSS technology is used to establish image locations in absolute coordinate systems, minimizing, or even eliminating in some cases, the need for ground control and greatly increasing the value of the deliverable. This level of precision is ideal for power line modeling, field leveling and site planning.


Hi Mark,

Due to the nature of the Mountain Course, it's sheer length and the fact that it is an open public road with no pavements in places, mobile scanning is the method the scanners will be using.

Ah so you are using van mounted scanners? That probably explains the cost over static methods. Didn't realise they were down to 3mm.

Storris
14-04-2016, 12:48
The camera in addition to the GNSS receiver achieves a leading level of image accuracy—orthomosaics resolution down to 1 cm and 3D models with up to 1,000 pts/m2.

The scan hardware is very capable, it's UAV platform seems to let it down, you can see from the video that the resolution achieved, at least in this example, is 5cm.

Even though our scan will be mobile, travelling at normal road speeds, we'll be capturing approx 4x the data that the UX5 is capable of in perfect conditions.

Ryzza5
14-04-2016, 12:59
Sounds very interesting.

On the subject of licensing, I can offer observations from one of the developers of Test Drive Unlimited 2, who commented on their game-version of the island Ibiza. Even in open/public areas, they were obliged to alter the design of certain objects, such as fancy street-light poles due to some sort of copyright/trademark on their design. You may need to research this for IoM.

The original post by the developer is here (Post #17 GALOP1N): http://forum.turboduck.net/threads/18849-modelling-goofup-to-eden

Storris
14-04-2016, 13:16
Hi Ryzza5,

Thank's for your interest. As with any commercial product, the developer would need to fulfil any and all legal obligations with regard to property rights & law, whether intellectual or physical. SMS, as with any potential commercial projects, has a lot of experience with licensing, so they should have all bases covered.

This isn't a concern for the data gathering though, or for non-commercial projects.

APR193
14-04-2016, 20:06
Been confirmed tonight there is an official IOM TT game coming 2017, developed by Kylotonn aka WRC 5 developers.

Storris
14-04-2016, 20:20
Been confirmed tonight there is an official IOM TT game coming 2017, developed by Kylotonn aka WRC 5 developers.

"Threaten to build it, and they will come"

Seems that my work here is done - *Packs up, goes home*

Shame, it was just starting to get interesting.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-04-2016, 20:40
WRC 5 was shit though, I'd rather have something made by people who actually made a good game... =/

APR193
14-04-2016, 20:45
WRC 5 was shit though, I'd rather have something made by people who actually made a good game... =/

That's my problem with it. I'm willing to wait and see, but I'm not holding my breath for anything spectacular.

I'm likely to get it whether I hate it or love it though being a bike fan. At least its not made by Milestone, who with their consistent push to make utterly dreadful games have put me off their MotoGP series (and any game that has their logo on) for life.

Storris
14-04-2016, 20:45
Ian,

If you're still reading this thread; since it seems that BigBen has shot my fox, I probably needn't be coy with my info anymore. The company who quoted me is 3Dlasermapping.com - Dr Graham Hunter.

MikeyTT
14-04-2016, 21:47
If our lovable Wookie will commit to bringing the TT course to PC1 or PC2, as that's all I play, then I'll chip into the Kickstarter for 10. Would love to see that course sitting in my track list.

RomKnight
14-04-2016, 22:04
If our lovable Wookie will commit to bringing the TT course to PC1 or PC2, as that's all I play, then I'll chip into the Kickstarter for 10. Would love to see that course sitting in my track list.

THIS. I'm a motorcycle guy... even if only for pCARS2

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
14-04-2016, 23:23
In for a penny, in for 10-20 pounds. =)

I've had in the back of my mind an idea that if I ever won the Euro Jackpot I'd set up a company that would laser scan interesting roads and circuits from all over the world and sell the data at a very reasonable price to any company who wanted it. Essentially a repository of laser scanned track data that every game developer could use. This is one step towards that direction. =)

Umer Ahmad
14-04-2016, 23:32
It already has Ian's attention...I will give it another nudge tonight/tomorrow.

Storris
15-04-2016, 00:29
What happened? I was expecting support to fall away after the BigBen announcement. Was it the email I posted or Kylotonn's involvement in the TT game :)

Ian Bell
15-04-2016, 00:30
Hi Ian, thank you for the response.

I sent an email to info@slightlymadstudios yesterday.

On the costs; Lidar equipment (survey grade equipment) can be hired for approx 1500/day & purchased for less than 50,000. Even coupled with the costs of an operator and data processing, I can't understand why everything isn't being scanned. There are undoubtedly licensing & access issues for private circuits, but public roads, the Isle of Man & Targa Florio for starters, these should all be well within reach. But to be clear, this project is not hiring equipment for a DIY effort. We will be hiring professionals recommended to us by the team which scanned Rockingham Raceway for Live for Speed.

I only have the unofficial email from them at present, but when I receive the formal quotation I'll be posting it on the Kickstarter campaign along with a copy of the free distribution license that we'll be using for the data. If I can get your backing for the project, just a statement that you'll at least look at including it in game pC2, I'll give you anything you ask for!

Much appreciated Storris.

We have a long term plan to add Isle of Man to the game. To do it properly, ie. Bannockbrae levels of polishing is a mammoth task but it's one we have been and are looking very seriously at.

Ian Bell
15-04-2016, 00:33
If our lovable Wookie will commit to bringing the TT course to PC1 or PC2, as that's all I play, then I'll chip into the Kickstarter for 10. Would love to see that course sitting in my track list.

I can say that I want it very much for future game/s. We need to do a full cost analysis though and consider the licensing issues before we could commit.

Storris
15-04-2016, 00:49
Ian,

I mentioned on another forum that although big, it's really only 3 Nordschleife. A piece of cake really :p

On licencing: 'Subaru TT Challenge'. Just leaving that there, and this here
https://youtu.be/t7gmbQ8KxM4 for you.

Cheers :)

Ian Bell
15-04-2016, 00:53
Ian,

I mentioned on another forum that although big, it's really only 3 Nordschleife. A piece of cake really :p

On licencing: 'Subaru TT Challenge'. Just leaving that there, and this here
https://youtu.be/t7gmbQ8KxM4 for you.

Cheers :)

It has a lot more detail close to track in the form of houses, road side details etc though.

Ian Bell
15-04-2016, 00:54
Ian,

I mentioned on another forum that although big, it's really only 3 Nordschleife. A piece of cake really :p

On licencing: 'Subaru TT Challenge'. Just leaving that there, and this here
https://youtu.be/t7gmbQ8KxM4 for you.

Cheers :)

Jeez, that video is insane! 3.00 to 3.15 is epic.

Ryzza5
15-04-2016, 02:37
Could it be one of those projects where you give a proven, passionate modder a chance to enter the industry and do it cheaper than a current dev? (i.e. win-win)

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 09:07
Could it be one of those projects where you give a proven, passionate modder a chance to enter the industry and do it cheaper than a current dev? (i.e. win-win)

Was about to post the same - perhaps start (part of) it up early as a trial to see if it can be a WMD thing that still delivers SMS-level quality.

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 09:10
Ian,

I mentioned on another forum that although big, it's really only 3 Nordschleife. A piece of cake really :p

On licencing: 'Subaru TT Challenge'. Just leaving that there, and this here
https://youtu.be/t7gmbQ8KxM4 for you.

Cheers :)
Watching that video I get the same feeling of awe when I first played Rally Championship 2000. It would be amazing if we could get that experience into pCARS again, with up-to-date graphics, physics and sound :love_heart:

Schadows
15-04-2016, 12:06
I must say I'm quite skeptical.

Although I would gladly give money for such a layout to be laser-scanned and available freely to anyone, I was still under the assumption this "track" would not suit pcars very well (I think it was already discussed here or on wmd). The road is too narrow for anything else than time trial (TT the race is well named n__n) and it seems that even the rally in pcars 2 will point toward race rather than tt. Macau, which alternate between narrow and large sections seemed a better match in my opinion.

The scanning cost announced unofficially so far doesn't seem real to me, and the cost for modelizing the track from the data would probably be huge too, that's why it needs to suit the game it is integrated in.

But at least, other games may benefit from it, and it could pave the way for other crowdfunded-laser-scanned tracks.

LamboMantisMan23
15-04-2016, 12:22
Could it be one of those projects where you give a proven, passionate modder a chance to enter the industry and do it cheaper than a current dev? (i.e. win-win)

If SMS supplied us with some stuff, I'm sure it's possible.

Pisshead30
15-04-2016, 15:07
Been confirmed tonight there is an official IOM TT game coming 2017, developed by Kylotonn aka WRC 5 developers.

pity it wasn't by codies and the former evolution studios combination. WRC5 was awful

RomKnight
15-04-2016, 15:37
wrt to modding we already know some talented ones ;)

Salty Dog
15-04-2016, 15:54
I just read that Bigben interactive and Kylotonn games have announced an Isle of man TT race game (bikes) for consoles and PC, its in development atm, they claim they have laser scanned the course.

Kylotonn made WRC5, the way they treated customers during that was a disgrace, i bought the game and followed to closely on social media, the game was a complete disaster when it came out, im not expecting much from these clowns, actually i'd go as far as to call them imbeciles.

Pisshead30
15-04-2016, 16:52
Jeez, that video is insane! 3.00 to 3.15 is epic.

Check out this clip from another attempt in 2011


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSYiU-JdRw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfdgQSkiYIQ

beetes_juice
15-04-2016, 17:31
Gotta love the reaction of a racer. Just a big old smile.

Leper Messiah
15-04-2016, 17:58
I'll throw some money at this project!! This'll be fantastic and even better if SMS can get it in a game (hopefully pCARS2) and given the bannochbrae treatment, that track is just stunning IMO.

E_Luckow
16-04-2016, 18:17
Man, these videos are insane!!!!!! :livid:

Shinzah
16-04-2016, 22:30
WRC 5 was shit though, I'd rather have something made by people who actually made a good game... =/

The people who brought us Joe Danger are bringing us No Man's Sky.

Stranger things have happened than a developer with a history of mediocrity stepping up to deliver a good game.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 22:36
The people who brought us Joe Danger are bringing us No Man's Sky.

Stranger things have happened than a developer with a history of mediocrity stepping up to deliver a good game.It's not like Joe Danger was a bad game though, whereas pretty much everything Kylotonn has made has been somewhere between mediocre and worthless. And I'm still somewhat skeptical about No Man's Sky actually being fun to play, but we'll see.

Shinzah
16-04-2016, 22:41
It's not like Joe Danger was a bad game though, whereas pretty much everything Kylotonn has made has been somewhere between mediocre and worthless. And I'm still somewhat skeptical about No Man's Sky actually being fun to play, but we'll see.

....I found Joe Danger to be worthless tat not even worth playing for free, Jussi.

Something to be said for subjectivity in video games.

Ian Bell
16-04-2016, 23:15
Check out this clip from another attempt in 2011


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSYiU-JdRw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfdgQSkiYIQ

The co-driver barely blinked! These people are insane. He sounds like he's got a Northern Irish accent though so all is explained :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 23:23
....I found Joe Danger to be worthless tat not even worth playing for free, Jussi.

Something to be said for subjectivity in video games.Definitely, but trying to remove subjectivity a little bit, on the large scale Joe Danger games have been pretty well received be reviewers and customers, and they haven't suffered that badly from developer abandonment issues. Whereas pretty much everything by Kylotonn has been panned by critics and users alike, has suffered from massive amounts of missing and broken features (even to the level of the installers and uninstallers barely working) and consistent lack of support has also been a common theme for them.

As a fairly arbitrary marker, if we take the Metacritic "career average" for Kylotonn, they score 56, with highest score of 70 for WRC 5 on Xbone, and lowest at 39 for Cursed Crusade on X360 (average userscore is 5), Hello Games has 83, with highest being 88 for Joe Danger for iOS and Joe Danger: Special Edition for X360, and lowest being 78 for Joe Danger 2: The Movie for PS3 (average user score 6.9). There is something to be said for subjectivity, definitely, but also for trying to forget subjectivity.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 23:26
The co-driver barely blinked! These people are insane. He sounds like he's got a Northern Irish accent though so all is explained :)Very Northern Irish, almost North of North Ireland (co-driver Rory Kennedy is from Letterkenny). Higgins is from the Isle of Man, so he's probably used to that sort of stuff as well. =)

EDIT: Or is it actually northern Irish, since he is indeed from Ireland, not Northern Ireland?

r_outsider
16-04-2016, 23:31
Man, these videos are insane!!!!!! :livid:

Here, take a proper tour with John McGuinness. Pay attention to how much the machine is moving around. Try to not get motion sick.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJSVtsckyI

Seriously, though, can you imagine doing this track in, say, old Group 5 cars? That alone would be worth throwing some money in.

E_Luckow
17-04-2016, 00:12
Im well aware about the crazyness of bikes racing there (watch the race for years)... dont know why, never watched cars around :(

Shinzah
17-04-2016, 01:39
Definitely, but trying to remove subjectivity a little bit, on the large scale Joe Danger games have been pretty well received be reviewers and customers, and they haven't suffered that badly from developer abandonment issues. Whereas pretty much everything by Kylotonn has been panned by critics and users alike, has suffered from massive amounts of missing and broken features (even to the level of the installers and uninstallers barely working) and consistent lack of support has also been a common theme for them.

As a fairly arbitrary marker, if we take the Metacritic "career average" for Kylotonn, they score 56, with highest score of 70 for WRC 5 on Xbone, and lowest at 39 for Cursed Crusade on X360 (average userscore is 5), Hello Games has 83, with highest being 88 for Joe Danger for iOS and Joe Danger: Special Edition for X360, and lowest being 78 for Joe Danger 2: The Movie for PS3 (average user score 6.9). There is something to be said for subjectivity, definitely, but also for trying to forget subjectivity.

If we judge everyone on their popular past interpretation, what can ever be said for me? I might as well straight up quit life and throw myself off of a bridge.

I don't want to live in a world where someone can't be seen to improve because their past just happens to suck and so all of their future endeavours must also by extension suck.

If I judged Black Bean or Codemasters or Eutechnyx, I'd never have enjoyed games by them. And what if I judge them now? And they produce content I would thoroughly enjoy?

What really is the point of prejudice over future events you have no control over, and especially no knowledge of? For you especially, I find this bafflingly pointless.

Storris
17-04-2016, 21:03
Stay tuned. Friday 10th of June http://www.iomtt.com/News/2016/April/15/Subaru-Prodrive-2016-Isle-of-Man-TT-lap-record-attempt-Mark-Higgins.aspx

Storris
20-04-2016, 20:36
OP updated with some frankly incredible news. Take a look.:D

cluck
20-04-2016, 20:58
Excellent stuff :). I don't doubt people will be queuing up to help you with the funding, let us know when you've got the kickstarter up and running and I'll gladly pop a few quid in :).

SwiftyOne
20-04-2016, 21:20
I've been around Sim racing long enough to know, IOM, TT Track must be one of the most requested tracks in Sim racing....I'll put in towards funding

Diamond_Eyes
21-04-2016, 07:36
....<I'm also still waiting for a quote for point cloud>mesh conversion>

That would need a chunk of man-hours, right? Sifting through the cloud, sorting wheat from chaff.... please give a nod to Fairy Bridge in your meshing criteria.

Storris
21-04-2016, 09:03
If they make it to Fairy Bridge, they've gone the wrong way!

The method of scanning, 2 complete passes with dual offset scanners, will allow the the noise or chaff, such as road & pedestrian traffic, to be removed during the initial point cloud processing. The cloud>mesh conversion itself should be a fairly straight forward process, requiring little more than a box full of RAM sticks, a working day or two of CPU/GPU time and a software licence. Having the mesh is not a necessity, but it will allow those without access to design studio level resources/workstations, to instigate their own or participate in other's track-building projects.

Namron
22-04-2016, 07:45
Happy to chip in few quid for this Track for sure :D..... Please let it happen, Fingers crossed....

Nam......

Sankyo
22-04-2016, 09:04
So indeed the track can apparently be scanned for GBP 10k. Now I'm wondering what will happen, as Ian stated he'd let it be scanned for pCARS for that price, but he'll also have it for much less if he drops some money in the Kickstarter project and it reaches its funding goal. The data then only isn't exclusive. Hmmm.

Storris
22-04-2016, 09:43
...he'd let it be scanned for pCARS for that price, but he'll also have it for much less if he drops some money in the Kickstarter project and it reaches its funding goal.

Can you imagine if all sim studios get involved, SMS, KS, ISI, iRacing, Kylotonn, etc... the funding could be completed in minutes! They could even offer some input to the project so that we can create data tailored specifically to their individual needs. At this point that sort of adjustment would be fairly trivial, and each could benefit hugely from it. Most importantly, from my perspective at least, the IoM course would be so much nearer to inclusion in all major titles & platforms.

Bealdor
22-04-2016, 11:21
I obviously don't know the legal conditions of that formal quote you received but the big question for me is:

Can you really purchase this scan at such a low price with the permission for public release of said data?
I can't imagine that a laser scanning company would allow anyone to make their point cloud scans available for everyone for free on public forums.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-04-2016, 11:45
Can you really purchase this scan at such a low price with the permission for public release of said data?
I can't imagine that a laser scanning company would allow anyone to make their point cloud scans available for everyone for free on public forums.I'm not sure what the contracts are in situations like that, but doesn't the one who orders the scan own the data? If someone paid me to do a job, they tend to own the results of that job after all, and it's up to the how they use it.

Storris
22-04-2016, 12:59
Can you really purchase this scan at such a low price with the permission for public release of said data?
I can't imagine that a laser scanning company would allow anyone to make their point cloud scans available for everyone for free on public forums.


I'm not sure what the contracts are in situations like that, but doesn't the one who orders the scan own the data? If someone paid me to do a job, they tend to own the results of that job after all, and it's up to the how they use it.

Yes Bealdor, we can. Jussi is correct. We aren't buying a licence to use their data, we are commissioning them to create data for us. The point cloud will be ours, we are simply hiring the equipment and expertise to create it.
Also, our intentions to release the data publicly were explicit in the email conversations which led to their quote.

Sankyo
22-04-2016, 13:04
And to complete that part of the undertaking: only when a game dev wants to turn the point cloud data into a race track that is named "Isle of Man TT", licensing costs will come into play. Because it's all public roads, the laser scan data cannot be licensed but everything around the Isle Of Man TT race and what makes it recognizeable as that in a computer game will be subject to licensing.

Bealdor
22-04-2016, 14:16
Yes Bealdor, we can. Jussi is correct. We aren't buying a licence to use their data, we are commissioning them to create data for us. The point cloud will be ours, we are simply hiring the equipment and expertise to create it.
Also, our intentions to release the data publicly were explicit in the email conversations which led to their quote.

That's great news indeed.

Fractured Life
22-04-2016, 15:13
Very Northern Irish, almost North of North Ireland (co-driver Rory Kennedy is from Letterkenny). Higgins is from the Isle of Man, so he's probably used to that sort of stuff as well. =)

EDIT: Or is it actually northern Irish, since he is indeed from Ireland, not Northern Ireland?

Thats not Rory Kennedy is it? He's in his 50's and co-drove for the great Bertie Fisher.

Guy in the video sounds American to me lol

Edit: I'm about 20 minutes from Letterkenny.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
22-04-2016, 16:45
Thats not Rory Kennedy is it? He's in his 50's and co-drove for the great Bertie Fisher.

Guy in the video sounds American to me lol

Edit: I'm about 20 minutes from Letterkenny.Hmm, very true. Kennedy was Higgins' co-driver for a long time (2006-2008 almost exclusively, on and off up until 2010), but he can't be that guy. =/

Storris
06-05-2016, 10:35
More news, not as good as last time, but not bad either. Submitted Kickstarter for approval, will be launching soon. 3... 2....

cluck
06-05-2016, 10:40
Kickstarter funding goal reached in 3... 2... ;)

IJOJOI
06-05-2016, 11:28
Backing mode activated :D

Invincible
06-05-2016, 13:47
I can't find it on kickstarter :(

Bealdor
06-05-2016, 14:36
I can't find it on kickstarter :(

Because it's not approved yet. ;)

Storris
09-05-2016, 15:44
I can't find it on kickstarter :(

Because it's not approved yet. ;)

You can/it is now! Ladies & gentlemen, in the immortal words of Murray Walker, "Go, Go, Go"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1669324602/snaefell-mountain-course-3d-laser-scan

cluck
09-05-2016, 15:49
You can/it is now! Ladies & gentlemen, in the immortal words of Murray Walker, "Go, Go, Go"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1669324602/snaefell-mountain-course-3d-laser-scan Good luck :)

Had a few quid in my paypal account so I transferred a fiver from there and pledged that :yes:

Storris
09-05-2016, 16:11
Thank you cluck, if you wouldn't mind sharing with anyone who might be interested, on forums in races etc... that would be great. In fact if I can ask the same for anyone reading this to share as widely as possible, and to get us to the magic numbers ASAP. Thanks very much.

MikeyTT
09-05-2016, 16:20
Damn you cluck!!!

Only backer #2 now :( I've pledged the tenner I said I would.

Good luck!!!

Storris
09-05-2016, 16:22
Nice one Mikey. Fingers are X'd.

Storris
10-05-2016, 10:12
Kickstarter @1% - Only 99 to go!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-05-2016, 10:25
Just a question: Has this been publicized on other websites as well? This really does deserve to be seen by as many people in the sim racing community as possible, not just the pCARS forums.

Storris
10-05-2016, 12:07
The new info in OP shows a number of forums where we've started similar threads to this one. There are also similar threads on rFactor, RaceDepartment and SRMZ forums. But, pCars & iRacing are by far the most active forums at the minute, and this pCars thread is about x2 as active as its iRacing counterpart.

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/3477450.page
http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/isle-of-man-3d-scan-kickstarter-1.31996/
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg53309#msg53309
http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/28594-Isle-of-Man-3D-Track-Scan-Kickstarter-1
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/would-you-be-interested-in-a-laser-scanned-isle-of-man-tt.120475/#post-2240419
http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=11342

But we aren't everywhere, so if readers could do what they can to share the kickstarter via Twitter, Facebook, online race lobbies and any other interweb places you spend your time, it'd be appreciated.

Storris
10-05-2016, 12:43
Diamond Eyes >take a bow. Awesomeness.

Dmitry Afanasyev
10-05-2016, 14:41
Will share it everywhere I can. Great initiative! Good luck man!

Storris
10-05-2016, 15:18
Much appreciated Dmitry, backer #15.

Mad Al
10-05-2016, 15:39
have another 0.2%

Storris
10-05-2016, 16:55
499 more of these would see us there in no time Al, thank you. :cool:

LogRoad
10-05-2016, 17:13
Tried to start a thread at Codies, but they seem to be having problems right now recognizing members. Got it in NoGrip though.

Sander NL
10-05-2016, 17:35
Can I donate without signing up for Kickstarter?

I chose: "No thanks, I just want to help the project." but then they asked me to sign in. :(
I don't want to register :mad:, I just want to donate 5,- :)

Storris
10-05-2016, 17:41
If you know/trust anyone here with your money, you could paypal them the 5 and ask them to add it to their pledge.

Or, I could set up an account, if you wanted to paypal me?

Sander NL
10-05-2016, 17:50
If you know/trust anyone here with your money, you could paypal them the 5 and ask them to add it to their pledge.

Or, I could set up an account, if you wanted to paypal me?

Thanks for your reply. I don't have PayPal either.:o Just an old fashioned (Dutch) bankaccount and a creditcard.

Maybe I can just donate my 5,- directly to you?
Then you can back your own Kickstarter campaign with my donation.;)

Storris
10-05-2016, 18:00
Sorry Sander,
232927

I will create a 2nd KS account in order to be the last backer that gets the project over the finish line. My donation will be double the average pledge which is currently at ~13. If you want to forward your donation to me at that time, I'd be happy to add it to my own.

But I'm not comfortable giving out my bank details, so it would have to be transferred via Paypal.

Sander NL
10-05-2016, 18:09
I'm not comfortable giving out my bank details

I don't blame you. :encouragement: The world has come to a point where it's safer to distrust people. (Even if they will transfer you cash.:D)

I'll ask my friends if they have a PayPal account. (Come to think of it: One of them works at a company which provides payment solutions, so he must have one! :D)

Storris
10-05-2016, 18:11
Sounds like a good way to get them to donate for themselves too, I like it!

Sander NL
10-05-2016, 18:16
I don't blame you. :encouragement: The world has come to a point where it's safer to distrust people. (Even if they will transfer you cash.:D)

I'll ask my friends if they have a PayPal account. (Come to think of it: One of them works at a company which provides payment solutions, so he must have one! :D)

Update: Just send him a message: He doesn't have a PayPal account... :confused: Seriously.... he works at a (rather large) company which provides payment solutions, but has no PayPal account. In the Netherlands "iDeal" is the common way to pay online. Creditcards are pretty rare here. PayPal is even rarer I guess.

I won't clutter your topic with more of my posts. I'll try to work out a solution. Good luck with your campaign! :encouragement:

LogRoad
10-05-2016, 18:25
Codemasters thread is up.

Storris
10-05-2016, 18:48
Good stuff LogRoad, can you link in your post?

Do we have any denizens of VirtualRacing.org?

Also, updated backer stats in OP. Thanks to Mercy, pCars is up to 10 backers.

LogRoad
10-05-2016, 19:00
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361325

http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/41306/isle-of-man-3d-scan-kickstarter#latest

Frank

mw98
10-05-2016, 19:04
Just shared the project and the link to Kickstarter at some german pCARS-related Facebook groups. :yes: 28 days to go, hope we'll get there! :encouragement:

Storris
10-05-2016, 20:27
Thanks to JB, we're over 2% & 11 pCars contributors.

rev happy
10-05-2016, 20:43
I pledged 10 earlier. Is anyone a forum member at Inside Sim Racing http://www.isrtv.com/forums/ Perhaps we could do with a thread there? I enjoy their YouTube content and I'm sure some of their community would be interested in this too.

Namron
10-05-2016, 20:56
Donated my 25.00 & well worth it Storris, Hope it all goes well & very much looking forward to seeing the track done :encouragement:....

Nam......

Storris
10-05-2016, 23:41
Brilliant thank you, rev happy & Namron.

LogRoad
11-05-2016, 05:17
After watching two or three videos, am I correct in thinking that Snaeffel Mountain must be about as narrow as is practical for cars and simultaneous starts?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-05-2016, 07:45
After watching two or three videos, am I correct in thinking that Snaeffel Mountain must be about as narrow as is practical for cars and simultaneous starts?It's normal real life road width, around 7 and a bit meters for the most part. Unlike the 10-12 meter wide roads in pCARS. =)

And it really doesn't need to be any wider than that, having public road based tracks be super wide just instantly removes their character because you can go so dang fast and have too much room to pick your lines.

Leper Messiah
11-05-2016, 08:39
Just chucked a tenner at the project. I REALLY hope it succeeds.

Storris
11-05-2016, 12:20
Just a couple of weeks 'til this -- >>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGjQk3_tOIY

Storris
12-05-2016, 08:58
We may have hit peak Scan, yesterday wasn't good for backing. We'll need to average over 400/day to hit our targets. This really will need some concerted effort on behalf of those that want it, to get it in front of other like-minded sim-racers. Twitter, Facebook, Online race lobbies, Sim-racing forums etc... etc...

Please share and promote on a daily basis. Add the KS link, as the only or most prominent item in your forum signature, and engage with the forums when you have the chance. Make it prominent on your FB & Twitter accounts. This cannot happen by itself.

Cheers.

Ok So we have Twitter up & running - https://twitter.com/IoMLaserScan - Please follow, share & retweet etc...

& We have Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100012251730726 - etc...

satco1066
12-05-2016, 10:59
Hopefully you get that baked.

Shared 16 pounds today.

Also shared your FB page with a call to our followers on our FB page.

Thumbs up for reaching the goal.

Storris
12-05-2016, 11:01
Awesome spends and shares thank you satco.

Storris
12-05-2016, 12:43
Nordschleife & ProjectCars in the media - http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/05/is-the-nurburgring-the-ultimate-21st-century-race-track/

Storris
12-05-2016, 13:24
Alric Kitson. Thank you.

MacPhisto
12-05-2016, 15:55
If this becomes a reality in pCARS, we will need a Subaru to go with it.:o

satco1066
12-05-2016, 16:01
And they must release a bikes DLC ;)

Storris
12-05-2016, 16:08
MacPhisto - I've already planted that seed in Ian Bell's brain - http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?46492-Isle-of-Man-3D-Scan-Kickstarter-2&p=1265656&viewfull=1#post1265656

And Satco, that would be truly awesome, but if it doesn't happen, you can get your 2-Wheel fix at GP-Bikes.com

Pigmachine
12-05-2016, 16:36
Just put in 10 .. I ain't got more right now, but did a little 'reaching out' too.

Storris
12-05-2016, 16:39
Cheers Pigmachine, good work. Reach-out is always appreciated, it's the reach-around's you have to look out for!

Storris
12-05-2016, 17:14
Stefan, thank you. 2 more pCars backers, and I'll update the stats.

In a slight departure, the NW200 is happening now -
https://twitter.com/AHardyBreed/status/730806995020828672

sambat29
12-05-2016, 17:44
:D 10 in the cochon (the Pig money box) Good luck!

Storris
12-05-2016, 17:51
Merci sambat (tirelire?)

BiffyClyro88
12-05-2016, 22:14
So when this laser scan thing will be ended this track will be added to project cars only on pc or on console too?

Storris
12-05-2016, 22:29
Biffy, it will be available for everyone, PC, console, handheld, whoever wants it.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
12-05-2016, 23:16
So when this laser scan thing will be ended this track will be added to project cars only on pc or on console too?Completely unrelated to Project CARS as such. ANYONE would be able to use the data to recreate the track.

Ryzza5
12-05-2016, 23:19
I've done a little to spread the msg, but I guess the best way to spread would be to reach out to:

Sim racing blogs such as Bsimracing and Sim News Daily
Then larger blogs such as Team VVV and Inside Sim Racing
And hopefully onto one of their videos.

Should get quite an audience then.

dbo35
13-05-2016, 01:54
Sorry if this has already been asked -

What happens when the quote expires on 5/20/16?

Konan
13-05-2016, 03:52
Well...that's a fiver less on my credit card... I'm sure it will be well spent ...:cool:
Finally been able to back something....don't tell the wife though...:rolleyes:

Storris
13-05-2016, 09:02
Thank you Konan. It's a great way to spend a fiver, and I promise not to mention it.


dbo35,

Great question, I've already spoken to 3dlasermapping.com, they are happy to extend the terms of the quote to match the Kickstarter funding period.


Ryzza,

Thank you for the info. I'll take a look at them when I finish work today.

wesker6664
13-05-2016, 09:41
10 from me for this great project. Go go go !

Storris
13-05-2016, 09:51
Thank you Wesker.:greedy_dollars:

rosko
13-05-2016, 18:34
10 worthy cause

Storris
13-05-2016, 19:09
Yes it is rosko, thank you.

Patrik Marek
14-05-2016, 00:38
hmm, interesting idea! and I suppose something that could work
it is a huge project though, so it does need a lot of money

if it's successful, I wonder if additional tracks could benefit from this, imagine some of the great world tracks available for free* ( prohibiting re-selling it of course!)

LogRoad
14-05-2016, 04:29
Well, not quite free. Only the scan's data would be public, devs would still have to build the actual track and everything around it. As I understand it the "track" would have to be public roads to avoid negotiating fees/royalties with private owners. But this proposal involves 37.7 miles of public road and its full 3D scan data. Gotta be attractive to devs/track builders to have that available gratis.

One long track, and/or a bunch of stages.

Ian Bell
14-05-2016, 04:50
I have always dreamed of us creating a proper next gen Isle of Man course.

Be under no false impressions though as to cost to build. A conservative estimate, for it to be done properly to next gen standards, would be 300-500K Euro in pure staff costs.

MacPhisto
14-05-2016, 05:14
I wonder if some volunteer work would help out, or if we could figure out how to mod tracks into pCARS.

BigDad
14-05-2016, 06:40
I have always dreamed of us creating a proper next gen Isle of Man course.

Be under no false impressions though as to cost to build. A conservative estimate, for it to be done properly to next gen standards, would be 300-500K Euro in pure staff costs.

If you could sell 1 million copies at $70 each wouldn't that be an attractive deal.
Do you think 1million copies of that you could sell. You've built quite a reputation for making games.

Ian Bell
14-05-2016, 06:43
If you could sell 1 million copies at $70 each wouldn't that be an attractive deal.
Do you think 1million copies of that you could sell. You've built quite a reputation for making games.

I don't argue that profit on those numbers would be excellent, but it would need to sell for less than 20 dollars to get above 100K sales.

Konan
14-05-2016, 07:17
I have always dreamed of us creating a proper next gen Isle of Man course.

Be under no false impressions though as to cost to build. A conservative estimate, for it to be done properly to next gen standards, would be 300-500K Euro in pure staff costs.

WOW! I had no idea...and neither do a lot of us i think.
That statement might change a couple of people's perceptions about how "easy" it is to create a track...:cool:

Ian Bell
14-05-2016, 07:50
WOW! I had no idea...and neither do a lot of us i think.
That statement might change a couple of people's perceptions about how "easy" it is to create a track...:cool:

The Nordschleife cost us around 120k. So I'm doing a rough multiple on distance then considering the massively more varied trackside art required for IOM.

Konan
14-05-2016, 07:57
The Nordschleife cost us around 120k. So I'm doing a rough multiple on distance then considering the massively more varied trackside art required for IOM.

Yeez...that makes a person very modest and at the same time i'm appreciating even more how SMS can push out the DLC so cheaply...not to mention the free stuff and the patches...

Storris
14-05-2016, 09:21
if it's successful, I wonder if additional tracks could benefit from this, imagine some of the great world tracks available...

Imagine this instead, pCars: SanFransisco, or GTA: Prague, using the actual IRL streets of those cities, pot-holes, man-hole covers, and all.

If successful, if taken on by someone with the ability and resources to do it...

Completing this Isle of Man track will be a mammoth task, but with the right team and the right tools, and the high-level of community support it would need, it's not impossible, just daunting.


Well, not quite free. Gotta be attractive to devs/track builders to have that available gratis.

I think it needs to be remembered, that although the scan cost is relatively small, we're also only producing a small amount of the actual work needed for a track. Jim Pearson who is working on the full-size course for GPL, has estimated that building the track itself, was only about 5% of the work needed for the entire 'map'.

Here's the message I received from JP over at SRMZ, when talking to him about this KS - "In my experience, building a sim track surface accurately, by whatever means, represents perhaps 5% of the total work required to complete a long road track, if the environment is also to be reproduced absolutely accurately. The devil is in the detail!!!"

As I've said above, and elsewhere, even with the scan in hand, there will still be an awesome amount of work to do - "but with the right team and the right tools, and the high-level of community support it would need, it's not impossible, just daunting."

If you want this in pCars, if AC drivers want it, if iRacers want it, then they'll have to show that the time & work required by their devs, whether studio or community based, will be worth the investment. This isn't going to happen if there's not enough tangible support for it, and that applies to the scan & any potential finished track in equal measure.

Ian would be better placed to comment on potential time frames, but again referring to Jim Pearson, he has been working solo for approximately 10 years, in whatever spare time he has creating most of his assets from scratch. A professional studio team of 5-10 dedicated developers, with a number of existing environmental assets, the right tools, the right motivation, the right support... The time-frame here is at least measurable, and would be quoted in months (probably 2x, possibly 1x), rather than decades, years, or the 'indefinite' we currently have.

Storris
15-05-2016, 14:32
New Stats, we're over 5%.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-05-2016, 19:44
The Nordschleife cost us around 120k. So I'm doing a rough multiple on distance then considering the massively more varied trackside art required for IOM.Seeing as you spilled the track building cost beans already (it's been at times tough restraining from telling how expensive it can be), is it OK to quote Andy Garton's WMD post (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?1727-Press-Articles-on-Project-CARS-WMD&p=247612&viewfull=1#post247612) regarding the cost of P2P tracks?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-05-2016, 19:48
Here's the message I received from JP over at SRMZ, when talking to him about this KS - "In my experience, building a sim track surface accurately, by whatever means, represents perhaps 5% of the total work required to complete a long road track, if the environment is also to be reproduced absolutely accurately. The devil is in the detail!!!"True that. I made a couple of mountain roads for rFactor, and whenever I did the scenery even remotely well (i.e. didn't essentially just autogenerate it) I had to spend infinitely more time on it than the road surface, and I wasn't even trying to do anything fancy...

JeeF
16-05-2016, 00:45
Keep one very important thing in mind: The number of racing games that contain the IOM TT track can be counted in one hand, none of which are recent, none of which are CAR racing games.

If PCars could add a laser-scanned IOM TT track, considering the quality of sim it already is, it would attract a huge public in my opinion, when the word gets out.

There are thousands of IOM TT fanatics out there who enjoy racing games, and whenever someone asked in any forum "Any IOM TT racing game out there?", the only REAL answer would be PROJECT CARS.

If this isn't worth the investment to enlarge PCars name and Slightly Mad Studios name, I don't know what is. Consider the impact, not only on this title but on all your future titles.

It's an investment, a very good one. If every racing game had it, it wouldn't be as much.

Storris
16-05-2016, 13:39
As the next update to this post will happen @ 10% backing, I need to find a way to keep the thread in sight on the top of the front page. So this is that happening; Bump, live. You're welcome.

As is any & all support for the project, but if you want to show your support in a manner that will lead to a positive outcome, click the KickStarter link in my signature>

Thank you.

Storris
16-05-2016, 16:01
A better excuse to update this thread is when we get another pCars backer, so thanks to pippinfort for that opportunity. :D

Storris
17-05-2016, 01:41
Ever wondered what the result of a video editing novice let loose with some spare time and Windows Movie Maker, would be? Wonder no more, the abomination can be seen by clicking on the KickStarter link.

Keep the lulz to a minimum please, I'm off for some sleep.

pippinfort
17-05-2016, 10:45
A better excuse to update this thread is when we get another pCars backer, so thanks to Philip Jones for that opportunity. :D

Only my mother uses my full name :-)

Hello everyone, long time lurker, infrequent poster. Oh ... and I'm a pCars2 backer too.

Woop woop

Storris
17-05-2016, 20:22
Daily bump time.

Fears of 'Peak Scan' are creeping back in. We're still just over 5% and haven't had a backer since pippinfort above, ~24 hours ago.
crisis averted, new AC backer

So, to give you something to read & ponder whilst you're deciding whether or not to put your money where my mouth (and terrible video) is, and coincidentally also putting us back to the top of the thread pile, I thought I'd throw a few figures together based on Ian Bell's last few responses. I posted a similar comment over at iRacing in response to similar "we're gonna need a bigger boat" posts.

It turns out that for iRacing at least, the Isle of Man's Snaefell Mountain Course is probably a non-starter. They just don't have the install, or active, content purchasing user base required to make it financially viable. That post was also based on Ian's estimated figures, and went a little something like this:
__________
Starting with the estimated costs to build the track from Ian Bell, €350-500K ($400-567K), and taking iRacing's track price of $14.95, we see that iRacing would have to sell between 27,000-38,000 licenses to recoup their build costs.

As a tech track, with minimal investment of say 25% of that needed for a full version, would bring the costs down to $100-150K, and iRacing would begin to recoup costs at the $5 sale price with between 20,000-30,000 licenses.

These figures could obviously do with some serious polishing and I've no idea what the active, content purchasing user base of iRacing is, but I suspect this puts the project firmly in the 'not gonna happen' camp, as far as iRacing is concerned. If you want to drive this track, you'll be doing it elsewhere.
__________

I think iRacings install base is ~60,000, but I've no idea is that represents lifetime installs or active users and a good deal of those who are active, focus on the US Oval series'. Erring on the side of caution suggests that the IoM on iRacing's service isn't ever going to be a thing.

So what about pCars? Is it viable? Let's find out...

We're going to presume a 12 month build time based on the estimated $400-567K (sorry for the $$$ but, well, whatever...). Build time isn't really relevant here though. Could pCars sell enough copies to make the initial investment worthwhile?

Ian also estimates it would take a price of $20 or less to sell over 100,000 copies, so let's assume the IoM comes packaged with a couple of cars, maybe the Peel P50 (well, why not?) & the Subaru Impreza (as used for the Subaru TT Challenge), for $20.

pCars would have to sell between 20,000-28,350 copies to recoup costs, with perhaps a couple of thousand more to account for the cost of car development. Similar number to iRacing, but with an install base at least 10x larger and more focused on Road Racing.

As I've said in the other thread, these figures are obviously ball-park, but they are in the 'Ian Bell Stadium' and credit the SMS CEO with a little knowledge of his subject, that at this price this DLC package could sell 100,000 units. Even from a cautious perspective, on this basis, the project is not just viable, but also a fairly attractive business proposition.

Happy driving.

P.S.
Ian, if these figures are wildly inaccurate/totally unrepresentative, let me know and I'll start winding my neck back in ('mildly inaccurate' should be OK though for illustration purposes :) )

Storris
17-05-2016, 21:38
Just got some fairly decent news from the AC backer edited into the above post.

He's building it, right now :cool: Take a look - http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/isle-of-man-snaefell-mountain-tt-course.13197/page-3#post-685430

Ian Bell
18-05-2016, 01:17
Daily bump time.

Fears of 'Peak Scan' are creeping back in. We're still just over 5% and haven't had a backer since pippinfort above, ~24 hours ago.
crisis averted, new AC backer

So, to give you something to read & ponder whilst you're deciding whether or not to put your money where my mouth (and terrible video) is, and coincidentally also putting us back to the top of the thread pile, I thought I'd throw a few figures together based on Ian Bell's last few responses. I posted a similar comment over at iRacing in response to similar "we're gonna need a bigger boat" posts.

It turns out that for iRacing at least, the Isle of Man's Snaefell Mountain Course is probably a non-starter. They just don't have the install, or active, content purchasing user base required to make it financially viable. That post was also based on Ian's estimated figures, and went a little something like this:
__________
Starting with the estimated costs to build the track from Ian Bell, €350-500K ($400-567K), and taking iRacing's track price of $14.95, we see that iRacing would have to sell between 27,000-38,000 licenses to recoup their build costs.

As a tech track, with minimal investment of say 25% of that needed for a full version, would bring the costs down to $100-150K, and iRacing would begin to recoup costs at the $5 sale price with between 20,000-30,000 licenses.

These figures could obviously do with some serious polishing and I've no idea what the active, content purchasing user base of iRacing is, but I suspect this puts the project firmly in the 'not gonna happen' camp, as far as iRacing is concerned. If you want to drive this track, you'll be doing it elsewhere.
__________

I think iRacings install base is ~60,000, but I've no idea is that represents lifetime installs or active users and a good deal of those who are active, focus on the US Oval series'. Erring on the side of caution suggests that the IoM on iRacing's service isn't ever going to be a thing.

So what about pCars? Is it viable? Let's find out...

We're going to presume a 12 month build time based on the estimated $400-567K (sorry for the $$$ but, well, whatever...). Build time isn't really relevant here though. Could pCars sell enough copies to make the initial investment worthwhile?

Ian also estimates it would take a price of $20 or less to sell over 100,000 copies, so let's assume the IoM comes packaged with a couple of cars, maybe the Peel P50 (well, why not?) & the Subaru Impreza (as used for the Subaru TT Challenge), for $20.

pCars would have to sell between 20,000-28,350 copies to recoup costs, with perhaps a couple of thousand more to account for the cost of car development. Similar number to iRacing, but with an install base at least 10x larger and more focused on Road Racing.

As I've said in the other thread, these figures are obviously ball-park, but they are in the 'Ian Bell Stadium' and credit the SMS CEO with a little knowledge of his subject, that at this price this DLC package could sell 100,000 units. Even from a cautious perspective, on this basis, the project is not just viable, but also a fairly attractive business proposition.

Happy driving.

P.S.
Ian, if these figures are wildly inaccurate/totally unrepresentative, let me know and I'll start winding my neck back in ('mildly inaccurate' should be OK though for illustration purposes :) )

On build costs, you could do it for maybe 250k dollars by taking a lot of liberties with the finer details, reusing wall and house models etc.

One other consideration is will it need to be licensed... And if so, can it be?

Storris
18-05-2016, 08:59
With the right hand-shake you could be Chief of Police within a week over here. Getting a licence for the TT brand is child's play. They've even given one to Kylotonn!!! :applouse:

But seriously...

A 'Subaru TT Challenge' pack with an Evo for diversity & competition and the P50 for a laugh, not too many liberties with fine details such as mile posts & corner markers and prominent landmarks... Pay a visit or two to the island over the TT in the next couple of weeks, and you can find out. Research trip of course, strictly business.

If there's one thing the IoM is good at, it's doing good business for itself. We've not got much to work with over here, but we squeeze every drop out of it.

Will it need to be? If you want to bring ^that^ pack together, yes. If you just want to bring the track.... [Cough]Azure[Cough]Circuit[Cough]. How many lawyers have you got in that office anyway?

I'd be happy with either of these outcomes, I'll mostly only be driving the 49 and 98T. But the pCars Subaru TT Challenge sounds like a winning winner.

cornishbrooksy
18-05-2016, 13:22
From a personal point of view as well, does this track have enough interest to be a selling point in a game with no bikes....this is what the track is known for.....and yes I don't doubt that regardless if would still be a huge amount of fun in cars.

But I can imagine some people's response would be that you have provided a track notorious for its bike racing and not provided any bikes....so does the significant cost of the track make sense in this regard....a track that takes at least 4x the time and cost as the Nords to make, which guys in WMD can attest to how many man hours that track took to make...and more importantly refine.

Storris
18-05-2016, 16:29
Hi Cornishbrooksy

I think the business case for the track has been made.

Building it may lead some to wonder why there are no bikes in the game, but this is an open door, an opportunity to be explored.

I can't see that it would be construed as a negative, and definitely not a reason to avoid making the track.

Pigmachine
18-05-2016, 16:47
It's a bit sad that there are no real bike-sims for the PC. Superbikes Generations were the last decent one, strangely made by Milestone, who after that turned into The opposite of King Midas, in that all it touched turned into crap!
Yes I have MotoGP13 & 14.. but not 15, since I bought Ride in between, and talked to some of my Ride-mates on steam about MotoGP15, and watched some stream it with comments, and we all agreed that Milestone were totally dead as Bike-sim makers!

Well this turned into a little rant, but will serve as a bump.

Storris
18-05-2016, 17:06
@Pigmachine

Cheers for the bump, always appreciated.

Have a little something in return:
http://www.gp-bikes.com/

Pigmachine
18-05-2016, 17:14
Been looking at it for a long time, actually were looking at it again right after I posted my rant. And seems it's alive and kicking, with a few mods looking kinda promising.

Storris
18-05-2016, 17:17
Mods>Tracks>Isle of Man = Very interesting.

Pigmachine
18-05-2016, 17:48
Damn you made me buy it :) Even less time to do other stuff! (hope I still can pay my 10 pledge when the time comes ;) )

JeeF
18-05-2016, 19:23
From a personal point of view as well, does this track have enough interest to be a selling point in a game with no bikes....this is what the track is known for.....and yes I don't doubt that regardless if would still be a huge amount of fun in cars.

But I can imagine some people's response would be that you have provided a track notorious for its bike racing and not provided any bikes....so does the significant cost of the track make sense in this regard....a track that takes at least 4x the time and cost as the Nords to make, which guys in WMD can attest to how many man hours that track took to make...and more importantly refine.

Keep in mind that once you scan the track and designing it, you have it. You'll have it on PCars, PCars 2 and whatever other game you guys decide to launch in the future.
Actually owning it laser-scanned can be worth something fancy in the future, you never know. How many game developers have ever laser-scanned that track?

JeeF
18-05-2016, 21:21
I'd easily give 200 quid for this project if I was currently employed. Nordschleiffe is my current favorite track, tied with LeMans, but I've a feeling IOM TT would take first place if I ever had the chance to race in it. I've seen many videos on YouTube but never actually had the pleasure of driving in it myself in any sim. This is why I'm dying to have this on PCars. I've voted for it back when the topic "vote for tracks to be added to the game" was around and I've done plenty of research trying to find any modern game with the track (I don't want to play PS1 crappy style graphics). A laser-scanned would be a dream come true.

Storris
19-05-2016, 09:55
Quick bump to thank backer #50. From a different forum, but still worth a shout I think. Blackbeard thankyou

Storris
19-05-2016, 13:15
New [Banned] thread on Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/12/364042063116761207/ - Well, that was up for about 2 minutes before being removed as 'advertising'. The second attempt lasted less time, and now I'm banned from Steam Forums!!!

AbeWoz
19-05-2016, 14:04
threw in some currency. unfortunate that you're banned. send steam support an email clarifying your project intentions?

Storris
19-05-2016, 14:27
Thank you Abe,

Mail's already sent.

Storris
20-05-2016, 08:41
It's begun,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFvj_VPRkYA

Storris
21-05-2016, 18:14
Bumped. No new news, but page 2? I don't think so.

If you've got a second or two spare please share this thread, the threads in the OP and the KS link, across the interwebs. Much appreciated.

Leper Messiah
21-05-2016, 18:38
It's begun,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFvj_VPRkYA

wuuuuuuuhhhhhhhht is that controller?!! Is that all they have an email address......anyone got any info on that controller?

Mad Al
21-05-2016, 19:47
wuuuuuuuhhhhhhhht is that controller?!! Is that all they have an email address......anyone got any info on that controller?

Yeah, that's what doubledragoncc makes, he's been working on and refining that design for a while now.. he has a website somewhere (iasystems.tk?). PM him here or the GP-Bikes forum..

Storris
21-05-2016, 20:07
Some more info on DD's M/cycle Sim Controller (http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/20484-insidesimracings-hs1-fullthrottle-motorcycle-controller-by-iasystems-wip/?page=2)

Storris
23-05-2016, 08:26
Henrik Nordin:yes:

Leper Messiah
23-05-2016, 08:32
Yeah, that's what doubledragoncc makes, he's been working on and refining that design for a while now.. he has a website somewhere (iasystems.tk?). PM him here or the GP-Bikes forum..


Some more info on DD's m/cycle sim-controller http://www.virtualr.net/iasystems-motorcycle-controller-photos-video

Cheers for the heads up lads, looks bespoke and thusly expensive, I'll Pm the dude and see what's what. I fricken love it though!

Storris
23-05-2016, 16:35
Had a job of work today getting the plumbing ready for the TT VIP tent.

It was a stunning day, so I thought I'd take a few pics whilst I was up there.

Grandstand & Control Tower. On the bottom left of the first photo you can see the VIP tent/marquee in the background. We've been fitting the Kitchen with a gas supply, water heaters, leak detection/gas shut-off system, mains water and quite literally, the kitchen sink!

233516
233517

And waiting in the pit lane, courtesy of Subaru of America as you can tell, the TT course cars.

233518
233519
233521

And an empty looking paddock :( The privateers paddock has already been filling up over the last few days, and the big boys will be rocking up at some point over the next few days.

233522

doubledragoncc
23-05-2016, 20:46
Some more info on DD's m/cycle sim-controller http://www.virtualr.net/iasystems-motorcycle-controller-photos-video

PLEASE do NOT use this link it is YEARS out of date lol. Sorry I forgot it was still about I will update it now thanks for the reminder.

Please use this link for now as my website is under construction.

ISR Forums: http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/20484-insidesimracings-hs1-fullthrottle-motorcycle-controller-by-iasystems-wip/?page=2

My YouTube Channel is: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls

Sorry to highjack the thread for a sec, thanks.

I hope we finally get a real IOM track for bikes soon

DD

Storris
23-05-2016, 23:08
Jeez DD, you get about these forums almost as much as me!

I've edited my post with your new link.

NigelDRS
26-05-2016, 16:48
I guess it's safe to say that this is not going to happen.

Konan
26-05-2016, 17:06
I guess it's safe to say that this is not going to happen.


Yee of little faith...(don't know if that's the right way it's written but you get my drift)...:cool:

SwiftyOne
26-05-2016, 18:12
I guess it's safe to say that this is not going to happen.

I've backed four projects on KS over the last 12 months, three of these projects went right up to the last hours left...If everyone thought the way you do, there would be no KS, it's built on faith, trust, and a belief in what your backing. :)

Pigmachine
28-05-2016, 02:45
Seems it will not reach goal :( and after reading the cost of making something of the 3D scan, it is really out of my wallet-size, no matter who will build it, and it's imho more suited to bike sims, and GP-bikes don't have the budget to buy more then 100 meters! :confused:
I still haven't played 'the Green Hell on a better then really really bad times. Not played it a lot thou.
Will this project just get you the legal rights to laser scan exclusive, to deal out where it fits your fancy? (no critique to you, just a question, and a bump)

LogRoad
28-05-2016, 17:20
Pigmachine, you need to read the thread. Re tin-top racing at IOM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7gmbQ8KxM4

Pigmachine
29-05-2016, 19:10
I just suck at memorizing long tracks (or any track that I haven't played often the past 20 years) , and as I also suck at GP-Bikes, it would feel easier to blame my lack of skill on the bike ;)

Schadows
30-05-2016, 16:22
I've backed four projects on KS over the last 12 months, three of these projects went right up to the last hours left...If everyone thought the way you do, there would be no KS, it's built on faith, trust, and a belief in what your backing. :)But I suppose none of them were this far from the target. I pledge on several projects myself but unfortunately, I don't see this happening.
Such a shame.

At the end, it may be worth asking people (facebook or twitter) why did they not pledge. Could be useful for future attempts.

SwiftyOne
30-05-2016, 17:11
But I suppose none of them were this far from the target. I pledge on several projects myself but unfortunately, I don't see this happening.
Such a shame.

At the end, it may be worth asking people (facebook or twitter) why did they not pledge. Could be useful for future attempts.

It may have something to do with, getting nothing back for your pledge, at least all other KS prodjects give out rewards as such, that makes people pledge more for that reward, it's OK people pledging 1-10, that most people have, but your gonna need tons of people to reach your goal, and getting people to pledge more then 10 and get nothing in return, (just knowing your helping) well, people will not do that...It needs a good reward...What? Any suggestions guy's????

Schadows
30-05-2016, 20:01
I would wait for the answers. It could be the lack of rewards or simply the lack of any tangible result once the "track" had been scanned.
The data is worthless if no one use it to model a virtual version of the track. And without a track in the end, it seems pointless to help funding the project.

That's why a public poll might be of help. Knowing what went wrong and what can be improve when mounting the project (getting rewards like a campaign t-shirt, having a modding team already on board for modeling the track based on the scan ... and for which game, etc).

999KartVader
31-05-2016, 04:32
Someone needs to convince track owners to scan their own tracks and sell the scans to programmers of racing games, they could raise the money buy selling advertising on the sponsor boards of the track.

Isle of man would be awsome.

it was once on a Ps2 game, i wonder if there is a way to convert it and rename it.

Schadows
31-05-2016, 10:38
That would be illegal and surely not up to the standards of current gen games.
But I do agree about the track owners scanning their own property. I wonder why it isn't the case more often

konnos
31-05-2016, 10:58
It might be an issue of resolution compatibility. The selected resolution and equipment coordination might not be up to the game's standards and vice-versa. Mainly standards issues.

Storris
01-06-2016, 12:49
7 Days to go.

Lack of support Q&A

Why no rewards? Cost.

Rewards are additional costs with no tangible benefit. Especially in this case. I cannot give anything to backers other than the thing they are backing, without making the thing more expensive than it need be. I don't think potential backers are put off by the lack of 'I Scanned the Isle of Man' T-Shirts & Stickers, when the costs are kept to a minimum rather than being inflated by x% for no reason.

Scan standards?

The finished scan will be as high-spec as is possible to get within the constraints of the project, i.e it must be a mobile scan. It will be using the best commercially available tools, comparable to the Nurburgring scan.

Dev team?

If a professional dev-team wanted to do this, they would have and the KS would be obsolete. That they haven't yet done it is the reason for the KS. The closest I can offer to a dev-team is the community projects that have already stated that this would be good for them and their developments.



So where now?

Working from the hypothetical premise that the KS doesn't raise enough money, what next?

1) 'Ride on the Edge'. TT track in-game = Awesome. Lack of 4-wheels = Not so awesome, but beggars cannot be choosers.

2) Community. GPL, GP-Bikes & Assetto Corsa. Look for these in the forums links of the OP over the coming months and if you have the time/energy/skills, offer them a hand, lend them your support.

3) Studio. Ian Bell's interventions on this thread should leave us all optimistic for the future. The track is a feasible business proposition. There isn't anything to prevent big-sim developers from doing this, and several statements that it is being actively looked at for the future.

But, most importantly, there are still 7 days to go.

Verbal support for this project, i.e "yeah/nice idea/good luck", is irrelevant. If you want to back this project, to show studios that the support for this track definitely exists & that any investment they make will not be in vain, and to get a IRL surface to community developers, then you simply need to back & share the KS page. If you do this, then questions about the lack of support become irrelevant. The only question that needs asking, is why you haven't backed it yet!

Storris
01-06-2016, 13:09
http://www.crash.net/road-racing/news/230924/1/tt-2016-subaru-dunlop-aims-to-break-car-mountain-record.html

cluck
01-06-2016, 13:10
Warning : semi-rant follows. Not aimed at anybody here in particular but it expresses my sadness that this has seen so little funding.

Speaking purely for myself, I put my small contribution in with my eyes wide open, knowing that there would be zero reward for me other than the personal pride of having helped. I had hoped that there would be enough other people around to do the same. It must be a kick in the teeth for Storris, who clearly believed it would be a cinch to reach the KS funding goal but, when push came to shove and people were asked to actually put their hands in their pockets, only 50 people obliged :(

OK, so it isn't providing a full, finished, track but everybody will have known that from the start, it never set out to achieve that. But think of this as an opportunity, an almost perfect 'crowd-sourced' project. Get the scan cost crowd-sourced, get up and coming modellers all round the world to collaborate and produce the track in a game that would allow such a thing. Result? The world gets to play on a highly detailed, highly accurate version of an utterly amazing circuit. For very little money. Up and coming track artists get noticed. But alas, as with so many other things in the world, too many people have looked no further than "what's in it for me?" and decided "no" :(.

Mad Al
01-06-2016, 20:48
Warning : semi-rant follows. Not aimed at anybody here in particular but it expresses my sadness that this has seen so little funding.

Speaking purely for myself....

Na, you're just saying what everyone else was thinking.. there are a lot of tight arsed w****** about... (I'm just paraphrasing what you said ;))

Well.. I'm prepared to up the anti to 250 quid.. now it just needs 47 other people to do likewise...

MikeyTT
03-06-2016, 11:24
After pledging I've not really looked at how things were going. Having looked today I'm really disappointed that there are only 52 backers and less than 10% of the goal met!

Given how many people drive on the Nordschleife and the amount of mp servers with this track, I thought a similarly long and technical, albeit road course, would have been a real pull.

I suspect that the big issue is that there are no confirmed dev houses that will actually take this and develop a track around the scan data. It's a shame we couldn't get that promise from SMS, as I'd like to think if we had then we'd see more backers popping out of the woodwork.

Dakpilot
03-06-2016, 11:43
I admire the initiative, but if it costs $250-$500,000 to develop the track for a big/medium Dev concern, the cost of laser scan seems a very small issue if it (IOM) was considered a viable project

If it would be picked up by a mod team, which game would it be for? It still would remain a HUGE project probably too big for a comparable result to what is expected for current/next gen users

Sorry, and not being tight arsed, but I don't see an 'end game' here, other than saving Game developers a tiny part of their budget if they chose to do an IOM track

I certainly would enjoy Driving round IOM course in PCars, but as a Motor Racing Circuit there are more iconic current and historic tracks which would come first and maybe even get more use (and quite simply easier be to create/produce), obviously in Motorcycle Racing this is not the same case

Good luck all the same, having an idea/dream and pursuing it is always something to commend and to be proud of regardless of outcome

Cheers Dakpilot

FR-Alan
03-06-2016, 11:46
Sad to see that not a lot of WMD members who have fund returns (+200%) canno t reinvest a part. :greedy_dollars: -> virtuous circle.



:onthego:

MaximusN
03-06-2016, 12:00
Warning : semi-rant follows. Not aimed at anybody here in particular but it expresses my sadness that this has seen so little funding.

Speaking purely for myself, I put my small contribution in with my eyes wide open, knowing that there would be zero reward for me other than the personal pride of having helped. I had hoped that there would be enough other people around to do the same. It must be a kick in the teeth for Storris, who clearly believed it would be a cinch to reach the KS funding goal but, when push came to shove and people were asked to actually put their hands in their pockets, only 50 people obliged :(

OK, so it isn't providing a full, finished, track but everybody will have known that from the start, it never set out to achieve that. But think of this as an opportunity, an almost perfect 'crowd-sourced' project. Get the scan cost crowd-sourced, get up and coming modellers all round the world to collaborate and produce the track in a game that would allow such a thing. Result? The world gets to play on a highly detailed, highly accurate version of an utterly amazing circuit. For very little money. Up and coming track artists get noticed. But alas, as with so many other things in the world, too many people have looked no further than "what's in it for me?" and decided "no" :(.

I really like this idea not even for being this track but the concept as a whole.

It seems a waste of human resources to have every developer laserscanning the same track(or none in this case). If all sim-developers(or better: sim-fans) worked together, one scan of a location needed would be enough(maybe another after a major change). Instead of a scan for iRacing, Pcars, Assetto, R3E and so on. If the community (or at least a non-profit group) did this costs for developers would go down because they only need to pay 1/<amount of sales> the price of a scan.

And we <as human beings> would build a portfolio of scanned locations. Problem is 'we'(humankind) are too selfish and caught up in capitalism to make these kinds of dreams come through though :(

Leper Messiah
03-06-2016, 12:28
Warning : semi-rant follows. Not aimed at anybody here in particular but it expresses my sadness that this has seen so little funding.

Speaking purely for myself, I put my small contribution in with my eyes wide open, knowing that there would be zero reward for me other than the personal pride of having helped. I had hoped that there would be enough other people around to do the same. It must be a kick in the teeth for Storris, who clearly believed it would be a cinch to reach the KS funding goal but, when push came to shove and people were asked to actually put their hands in their pockets, only 50 people obliged :(

OK, so it isn't providing a full, finished, track but everybody will have known that from the start, it never set out to achieve that. But think of this as an opportunity, an almost perfect 'crowd-sourced' project. Get the scan cost crowd-sourced, get up and coming modellers all round the world to collaborate and produce the track in a game that would allow such a thing. Result? The world gets to play on a highly detailed, highly accurate version of an utterly amazing circuit. For very little money. Up and coming track artists get noticed. But alas, as with so many other things in the world, too many people have looked no further than "what's in it for me?" and decided "no" :(.

gotta agree with this, I don't have a huge amount of money coming in, but I slapped a tenner in which is a significant % of my income.

Sparco
03-06-2016, 14:16
Warning : semi-rant follows. Not aimed at anybody here in particular but it expresses my sadness that this has seen so little funding.

Speaking purely for myself, I put my small contribution in with my eyes wide open, knowing that there would be zero reward for me other than the personal pride of having helped. I had hoped that there would be enough other people around to do the same. It must be a kick in the teeth for Storris, who clearly believed it would be a cinch to reach the KS funding goal but, when push came to shove and people were asked to actually put their hands in their pockets, only 50 people obliged :(

OK, so it isn't providing a full, finished, track but everybody will have known that from the start, it never set out to achieve that. But think of this as an opportunity, an almost perfect 'crowd-sourced' project. Get the scan cost crowd-sourced, get up and coming modellers all round the world to collaborate and produce the track in a game that would allow such a thing. Result? The world gets to play on a highly detailed, highly accurate version of an utterly amazing circuit. For very little money. Up and coming track artists get noticed. But alas, as with so many other things in the world, too many people have looked no further than "what's in it for me?" and decided "no" :(.

Without looking for a ban, I'm new here but I am registered on the other sim racing forums. A big issue many are having with this particular crowd funding project, is that it's related to the PCars forum.

That's no my being rude, I'm just reading the comments and discussions with users on other racing forums who say they are not keen on this particular site, it's users, the game or SMS in general.

I think this would have gained much more support had it not started here.

Again, please don't ban me for saying this, but if you go to the bigger forums for multiple games etc, you will see exactly how this was received / perceived.

Not saying it's right, not saying it's my opinion, not saying anything other than "just saying"

LogRoad
03-06-2016, 15:04
Sounds like a lot of heavy thinking.

Diamond_Eyes
03-06-2016, 15:15
Sparco

You're doing good....

234013

Sparco
03-06-2016, 15:20
Sounds like a lot of heavy thinking.


Sounds like a lot of heavy thinkers.

vs the register users here who didn't pay a cent either, none of them put up when it mattered :-/

The users over at
at /r/PCars
Or /r/SimRacing
RD
GTP
SRF
Etc all see the project stemming from here, and many don't like this forum (for whatever reason)

Many see it as an echo chamber where you get banned for saying anything other than "yes" with only a handful of users left, many of which don't have the passion or desire to "put up" like "they" did when they funded the initial game.

Problem is, they are kind of right...
Only 50 odd people from all those forums, Reddit, this sites hardcore users, PC/XB/PS4 users, mods etc chipped in.

It's hard to say they don't kind of have a point :(
The numbers speak volumes...

@diamond eyes
I'm not tring to get a ban, I'm trying to communicate / converse like an adult regarding why this funding collapsed.

Threatening me with a ban for saying 1 thing that was prefixed with a reassuring statement advising that I'm not agreeing with them, not saying it's right etc... just perpetuates the issue and the perception of the site? "Ban him he said something I don't like" ??? Really? That's just childish?

If a ban is what I receive for conversing like an adult and presenting my point in a non threatening way, with no malice or aggression... Well then you may as well tell those guys who didn't fund the project that they are right to do so... And if so... How does that look/work moving forward when those same people are asked to pay for PCars 2 :-/

Just saying

Diamond_Eyes
03-06-2016, 15:56
No, I don't think you deserve a ban... the graphic was a supportive (but with sprinkle of mockery not directed at you) representation of your carefully worded post. I think we appreciate frank and open discussions here.

SlowBloke
03-06-2016, 16:04
Without looking for a ban, I'm new here but I am registered on the other sim racing forums. A big issue many are having with this particular crowd funding project, is that it's related to the PCars forum.

That's no my being rude, I'm just reading the comments and discussions with users on other racing forums who say they are not keen on this particular site, it's users, the game or SMS in general.

I think this would have gained much more support had it not started here.

Again, please don't ban me for saying this, but if you go to the bigger forums for multiple games etc, you will see exactly how this was received / perceived.

Not saying it's right, not saying it's my opinion, not saying anything other than "just saying"

People don't get banned for sharing opinions on PC in a reasonable manner.

I have however seen plenty of people get banned with extremely rude / aggressive / argumentative (ie fire stoking) / demanding approaches / constant negativity after the points have been made and a conculsion is reached etc....

In my view its refreshing to see a company not accept that from their customers.

However they sure have paid for it with all the vitriol spewed elsewhere! Oddly enough its probably also created quite a bit of free marketing?

Konan
03-06-2016, 16:06
No, I don't think you deserve a ban... the graphic was a supportive (but with sprinkle of mockery not directed at you) representation of your carefully worded post. I think we appreciate frank and open discussions here.

Very true...any civilised discussion is much appreciated...no matter what the subject is or where your preferences lie...

NemethR
03-06-2016, 16:15
Warning : semi-rant follows. Not aimed at anybody here in particular but it expresses my sadness that this has seen so little funding.

Speaking purely for myself, I put my small contribution in with my eyes wide open, knowing that there would be zero reward for me other than the personal pride of having helped. I had hoped that there would be enough other people around to do the same. It must be a kick in the teeth for Storris, who clearly believed it would be a cinch to reach the KS funding goal but, when push came to shove and people were asked to actually put their hands in their pockets, only 50 people obliged :(

OK, so it isn't providing a full, finished, track but everybody will have known that from the start, it never set out to achieve that. But think of this as an opportunity, an almost perfect 'crowd-sourced' project. Get the scan cost crowd-sourced, get up and coming modellers all round the world to collaborate and produce the track in a game that would allow such a thing. Result? The world gets to play on a highly detailed, highly accurate version of an utterly amazing circuit. For very little money. Up and coming track artists get noticed. But alas, as with so many other things in the world, too many people have looked no further than "what's in it for me?" and decided "no" :(.

Truth to be told, for me the circuit is interesting, but nothing more.
As a racetrack it is not a really good one, at least not for cars, its also way too long to just drive a few laps on it without having to take a day off.
So for me the track has no big value.

Of course there are people who will look forward to it a lot. But I just don't see the same in it, as others do.

Now if there would be a crowd funding for tracks like Adelaide, Daytona, Zandvoort, I would most likely join in. Or for Porsche cars for example.
Problem is, I think most people do not even really know the track. Sure they heared of it, but don't know it. And thuss there is no "Epic" factor in it.

Mad Al
03-06-2016, 16:19
The first mention of the kickstarter at the Assetto Corsa forums was 12/4/2016, the first post in this thread is the 13th..
In fact storris signed up to the AC forums and started the Kickstarter thread on the 12th and the following day joined here and started this thread...

so how does the internet get to it originating on these forums..

(btw. that's a rhetorical question.. there is a reason I never go near reddit and most other SIM forums any more)


(edit: actually he joined the GP-Bikes forums on the 11th, so let's say it started there then...)

LogRoad
03-06-2016, 16:20
<The users over at
at /r/PCars
Or /r/SimRacing
RD
GTP
SRF
Etc all see the project stemming from here, and many don't like this forum (for whatever reason) >

I'm sorry, but to me this is just too funny. Face, meet nose. :p

Storris
03-06-2016, 17:33
This really started on SRMZ (11/4/16); with Jim Pearson's GPL project making little headway, the need for this to be done elsewhere seemed obvious.

The reason it might seem like a pCars project is because this forum is by far the most active out of those I've posted to. Not just the relevant thread, the entire forum. No other PC sim/racing game has the active install base that pCars has, it's a monster.


Here's my post from another SRMZ thread relating to this track - http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=11356&#entry118552

"I've not grown with GPL. Of all the simulators I've ridden or driven, GPL is the most recent. So I don't have the same reverence for it as perhaps others do, or any other sim for that matter. I do though have that same reverence for the TT track, and for the machinery that is piloted around it, two wheeled or four.

This is where my passion lies. Not in the unique characteristics of a game's physics or graphics nor in the esoteric community that keeps it alive, but in the unique characteristics of those things that the game tries to recreate, and in exploring that recreation and the possibilities it holds.

Nowhere are those possibilities more apparent than at the top of Bray Hill, looking down at the suspension crushing turn that may prove to be your undoing, or approaching Handley's corner sideways and at inconceivable speeds, brushing against disaster in the form of a Manx Stone wall which bears the scars of more than a few IRL jockeys.

This is what I revere.

And such is my adoration, that I still maintain the PlayStation 2 that I purchased in my teens. Despite everything that technological innovation has made available to me I still load a 12 year old game into the tray of a 16 year old console, and I still launch myself from the start line of a 100 year old race track, with just a touch of rear brake to keep the front down.

But why? Is there any reason to not have this track running on more capable hardware, or why four-wheeled rockets aren't also squirming their way around the Manx highways? No.

I know the tools exist. I know the commercial market exists. But the product itself, it just doesn't. And this has been true for at least half of my life. There is no reason that the TT course hasn't been available before now, on better suited hardware with a wider variety of vehicles. The fact that these do not exist is absurd. There's no logic to it. A world where you cannot drive the TT track in a vehicle of your choice, from the comfort of your office chair is ridiculous. A universe in which it is possible to pilot a remote controlled drone on the surface of Mars from an office in Texas, but I still cannot drive a Lotus '49 across Snaefell on my PC?

No. Thank. You.

So, with an obvious and fundamental problem identified, what do I do? Do I complain about how the world doesn't work properly because I can't get what I want? Do I send the guy who says he's doing what he can, endless mails about how disappointed I am that he hasn't finished yet?

No, of course not. I'm practically a fully growed adult. I did the mature, sensible thing and tried to fix it. My skill set gave me a couple of options, none of which were a DIY project; I can't tell one end of a .pbf from the other. So I decided that I'd try and find a way to get resources to those who know what they are doing, JP included.

I've spoken (or forumed), with very few people who don't want to drive or ride around the TT track in their preferred simulator. I've spoken to even fewer people who are in a position to do anything about it, other than to sit and wait for others (or an 'other', to be exact) to do the work.

I could have offered to assist with an extant development effort, but I think it is clear how much assistance could have been given, or would have been accepted.

So a community fund raising exercise, with those funds directed towards a fundamental piece of the puzzle, in order to get the ball rolling, or rolling a bit faster in some cases, seemed like a logical idea."

Konan
03-06-2016, 17:50
Believe me...if i could ...i would have given more...i truly believe this is a cause worth giving for...i really think there is not one single (true) racing fan out there that hasn't heard of the Isle of Man

Schadows
03-06-2016, 18:51
so how does the internet get to it originating on these forums.Probably the same way they though saying something bad about the game here would get them banned.
They probably hear (or most accurately "read") some people complaining about being banned for no reason (some truly think so without reflecting on what they wrote and how they surely would have received a punch in the teeth if they dare to say it to someone face). The information was never verified (looking at the last posts of banned users is generally enough to identify trolls wanting to throw the forum in disarray or just seeing personal attacks at the devs.
Hearing is believing, wherever you heard it from ...



Many see it as an echo chamber where you get banned for saying anything other than "yes" with only a handful of users left, many of which don't have the passion or desire to "put up" like "they" did when they funded the initial game.

Problem is, they are kind of right...No, YOU're possibly right in you're assumption (anti SMS feelings might have hinder the project), but THEY are not, thinking you get banned as soon as you criticize the game.
Look at my posts (okay nobody will do that with that post count ^^), i'm not short of criticizing AI, and Career / Single player modes. As long as it's done correctly, critics are a fertile soil for improvement.



Now if there would be a crowd funding for tracks like Adelaide, Daytona, Zandvoort, I would most likely join in. Or for Porsche cars for example.Would be impossible for cars. In contrary to a "road shape", a car shape is subject to license. You cannot include a perfectly modeled Porsche without EA or Porsche authorization.

bradleyland
03-06-2016, 19:59
I would wait for the answers. It could be the lack of rewards or simply the lack of any tangible result once the "track" had been scanned.
The data is worthless if no one use it to model a virtual version of the track. And without a track in the end, it seems pointless to help funding the project.

That's why a public poll might be of help. Knowing what went wrong and what can be improve when mounting the project (getting rewards like a campaign t-shirt, having a modding team already on board for modeling the track based on the scan ... and for which game, etc).

It's good to see someone thinking openly about understanding the failures of the project, rather than simply condemning people for not backing a project.

I'd participate in responding to a pole explaining why I didn't participate in this KS.

There were two problems for me:

- I didn't have a high level of confidence that anything would come after the laser scan. I was worried that the scan would be complete, and either no developer would bother to use it, or that it wouldn't be developed in a racing game that I'd play.

- I'm not particularly interested in the Isle of Man track from a racing perspective. The Nordschleife combined circuit is about as long as I can handle, and that's around 26 km. The Snaefell Mountain Course is over 60 km! A single lap takes over 20 minutes.

Konan
03-06-2016, 20:12
It's good to see someone thinking openly about understanding the failures of the project, rather than simply condemning people for not backing a project.

I'd participate in responding to a pole explaining why I didn't participate in this KS.

There were two problems for me:

- I didn't have a high level of confidence that anything would come after the laser scan. I was worried that the scan would be complete, and either no developer would bother to use it, or that it wouldn't be developed in a racing game that I'd play.

- I'm not particularly interested in the Isle of Man track from a racing perspective. The Nordschleife combined circuit is about as long as I can handle, and that's around 26 km. The Snaefell Mountain Course is over 60 km! A single lap takes over 20 minutes.


That may be true...but on the other hand the starting amount was 1 pound...what can you lose with that?
This would have opened the road to so much more imo....opportunity missed i'd say....

MacPhisto
03-06-2016, 20:59
Maybe it would have been more successful if we would know how to add track mods in pCARS. Of course I'm thinking pCARS only here as other sims have easier methods already. So it might not have changed the outcome all that much.

Beans
05-06-2016, 23:51
I thought Bonnachbrae was masterful and I love it. The Isle of Man would truly be epic, and yes, a Lotus 49 around it would be a dream. I recently saw this thread and I'm sorry to see the Kickstart numbers, maybe a yellow banner would have helped... if possible, but the effort was noble. I'm sure if the track was a DLC it would do well. Perhaps the end result wasn't tangible enough for the average person, not knowing if it would ultimately result in a usable track. I do hope your efforts some how plant a seed for this track in pcars 1 or 2 though :)