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gp20
15-04-2016, 03:08
I wonder if there will be a physics upgrade for this version.
I feel like doing ice skatting with Pcars.
The physics is nowhere close to Rf2, Assetto, IRacing or RaceRoom...Unfortunatly.:(

E_Luckow
15-04-2016, 03:13
Ice skatting? This is new. What cars/classes are you talking about? Do you use a wheel?

gp20
15-04-2016, 03:16
GT cars, yes i use a wheel.

lollygag
15-04-2016, 03:19
Sounds like PEBWAS to me.. cause my physics are perfect.

E_Luckow
15-04-2016, 03:20
Well, I do play 99% with GT3 cars, and have all the sims you cited. The physiscs of PCars is, IMHO, just great. Just love the tyre physics, not even close to an ice skatting feeling.

kevin kirk
15-04-2016, 03:23
I wonder if there will be a physic upgrade for this version.
I feel like doing ice skatting with Pcars.
The physic is nowhere close to Rf2, Assetto, IRacing or RaceRoom...Unfortunatly.:(....wouldn't it be more simple to just change your car setup?

gp20
15-04-2016, 03:41
Changing the setup does not change the physics.

E_Luckow
15-04-2016, 03:56
Changing the setup does not change the physics.

Sorry, but what's your point? You don't like the physiscs and are asking for an update?

Ian Bell
15-04-2016, 04:21
Definitely an odd one. We're accused more of being not slippy enough compared to the competition.

Silraed
15-04-2016, 04:37
I would maybe wonder if this is a FFB issue rather than an actual physics issue. Bad FFB can make it feel pretty ice skatey especially in the GT3 cars where they are so numb to begin with.

Jan Studenski
15-04-2016, 05:37
Definitely an odd one. We're accused more of being not slippy enough compared to the competition.

Competition = Mods?

Cause this reminds me of many many mods which were made more "hardcore" to add new challenges and this was done by removing grip, especially rF mods
Reminds also of those guys driving with insanely strong force feedback

Riccardo De Rosa
15-04-2016, 05:46
The physic is nowhere close to Rf2, Assetto, IRacing or RaceRoom...Unfortunatly.:(
Unfortunatly? Fortunately man, fortunately! for this i'm here and not in others sims. :)

Cheesenium
15-04-2016, 05:52
To be honest, even some of the other games in the market, their tire model update does feel a lot less slippery than before. And they do have their own racing consultants that has a lot real racing experience. I remember seeing people complaining the same thing on their forums on their cars also becoming too easy to drive.

I dont know as I never driven a real race car to that caliber. Considering that many cars pcars has quite substantial aero, like the GT3s, I am not surprised that they arent as slippery as one would hope.

And, being difficult to drive isnt being realistic. There are quite a few accounts from race drivers that a GT3 race car is actually a lot easy to drive than the road car counterpart because of slicks and superior aero. While there are some GT cars in real life, like the Nissan GT3, is deliberately designed to be easy to drive to train their drivers.

SMS has some real drivers that has a lot of racing experience with wide range of cars, I'll trust what Ben Collins and co said than some random guy on the internet who does time attack with his own car. Knowing how critical Ben is with physics where he did criticised pcars physics a lot, sometimes fairly harsh in the early days, I think pcars physics is in good hands. You could look up on the net on what Ben had driven, he pretty much drove almost all the cars featured in pcars in real life.

I dont expect the same car to drive exactly the same in every game, as there are many factors that will affect it's behavior from developers own BoP to their tire model.

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 06:08
Changing the setup does not change the physics.

You already jumped to the conclusion that the physics model is wrong in some way, but you haven't given any details of what you're experiencing and what you're expecting.

Without that information, we could just as easily blame your driving technique as you are blaming the game's physics engine now.

So, if you want to discuss this properly instead of the topic being ignored/dismissed, please provide more details, preferably with a video showing the issue, with the telemetry HUD enabled.

NoBrakes
15-04-2016, 06:50
I would maybe wonder if this is a FFB issue rather than an actual physics issue. Bad FFB can make it feel pretty ice skatey especially in the GT3 cars where they are so numb to begin with.

This plus most time the tyres are not worked properly and stay much too cold: try first reducing camber and pressure, then compare how it changes with the telemetry HUD while driving on the track. Another thing are the steering ratios, as they seem to be to high (low numbers in setup) in a lot of the cars so the steering is very reactive (or nervous) with a very small amount of steering angle: in most cars I crank them up tp 20~24:1.

Also, when I try to understand the behaviour of a car - especially the GT ones - I often choose the modern Monza track, because I have some great chicanes there, where steering angle, camber and tyre pressure come much into play, and highspeed straights to check maximum speed and braking behaviour at the end...

And most of this has (in most of the better sims) not so much to do with a kind of "wrong" implemented physics (that's pure maths in the end) but the feeling you get behind your driving wheel coming from
1) your personal Hardware setup that has to be adopted to each sim individal
2) the cars setup.

PS: and check back from time to time how fast you are when you enter turns ... very often the FoV suggest much slower speeds then what you actually have and then comes the surprise that the back steps out suddenly as you try to change the direction of driving; and the wrong conclusion is then: this is driving like on ice - must be wrong physics ;)

i-am-the-stig
15-04-2016, 06:58
There is something wrong with the physics of the game most of the cars handle different to what they do in real life and on most tracks you get to a certain corner you spin like you've lost all traction

Why hasn't all the cars all ready set up to race you want me to adjust every car it would take me years using this http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/bycar

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 07:12
There is something wrong with the physics of the game most of the cars handle different to what they do in real life and on most tracks you get to a certain corner you spin like you've lost all traction

Why hasn't all the cars all ready set up to race you want me to adjust every it would take me years using this http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/bycar
This was already discussed in your own thread that you made recently, where it was shown that it's not a bug in the physics engine. Now you're posting the same initial "the physics are wrong" statement here as if that discussion never happened. Please stop spamming the forum like that, you're very much creating the impression that you're trolling instead of trying to contribute to the community and the game.

Diamond_Eyes
15-04-2016, 07:26
very often the FoV suggest much slower speeds then what you actually have

this

but there are some traps... usually the chicanes (like Bus Stop, Les Combes, NGK and Villeneuve) where you get no feedback & where the physics seem to go off-on-one and you've suddenly done a 180 with no smoke/noise on 4 hot and sticky 300mm wide race tyres.

Puffpirat
15-04-2016, 07:29
When you are saying pCARS is more slippery than iRacing, sorry then you have no idea what you are talking about. There's a reason people call it iceRacing.

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 07:31
this

but there are some traps... usually the chicanes (like Bus Stop, Les Combes, NGK and Villeneuve) where you get no feedback & where the physics seem to go off-on-one and you've suddenly done a 180 with no smoke/noise on 4 hot and sticky 300mm wide race tyres.
At least in the Spa Bus Stop there's a very nasty bump (of which it's not sure whether it's there in real life) that requires you to be really careful with the throttle.

That's not a physics bug, but most probably a limit of any discrete simulation engine dealing with a very sharp transition of some sort, in this case in the track's surface.

hkraft300
15-04-2016, 07:49
How's about a video of a few laps where the OP experiences this, while showing the in-game telemetry?
Even on cold tyres I can't think of 1 car that's nasty.
Well, aside from maybe the Ruf GT3 on default setup at Bathurst.

Funny how people complain of physics yet they have little idea of high-schools level physics let alone the advanced maths that goes into sims of this level.

gp20
15-04-2016, 07:50
I would maybe wonder if this is a FFB issue rather than an actual physics issue. Bad FFB can make it feel pretty ice skatey especially in the GT3 cars where they are so numb to begin with.
Perhaps i have a driving force gt.

balderz002
15-04-2016, 07:52
Obviously the OP has high levels of experience driving the real cars at real tracks, to be able to come in and say the games physics are wrong compared to other games.......... Otherwise its just his opinion on this and other games. And people dont do that on the internet do they?!?!?!?!?!

hkraft300
15-04-2016, 07:54
Perhaps i have a driving force gt.

Perhaps you need to try a gamepad with vibration.
Better yet, an FFB wheel.
Reaction to touch/vibration input is much faster than audio/visual only.

gp20
15-04-2016, 07:55
How's about a video of a few laps where the OP experiences this, while showing the in-game telemetry?
Even on cold tyres I can't think of 1 car that's nasty.
Well, aside from maybe the Ruf GT3 on default setup at Bathurst.

Funny how people complain of physics yet they have little idea of high-schools level physics let alone the advanced maths that goes into sims of this level.
A video will show nothing. It's about a feeling, i don't have the feeling of driving a car with tyres that rool over a surface.
You understand what i mean?


I used to play PCars with a PS4 and a thrusmaster ferrari 458 (yes it works) now i'm using a dfgt with a PC (WIN10) and i have the same feeling.
Perhaps too much break engine compare to the other sims kill this feeling?

gp20
15-04-2016, 08:01
Perhaps you need to try a gamepad with vibration.
Better yet, an FFB wheel.
Reaction to touch/vibration input is much faster than audio/visual only.
It is an ffb wheel.:confused:

Papa Bear
15-04-2016, 08:02
PCars requires tinkering with controller setup. Default it feels very bad. I've found my sweet spot and it feels great!!! I like it more than Assetto Corsa for being more fun overall.

Bealdor
15-04-2016, 08:03
A video will show nothing. It's about a feeling, i don't have the feeling of driving a car with tyres that rool over a surface.
You understand what i mean?

This sounds like you're missing the lack of canned effects in PCARS' FFB.

Invincible
15-04-2016, 08:04
It is an ffb wheel.:confused:

With the DFGT, you should really try out the FFB settings from Jack Spade. You'll find them and the instructions over here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files). Just make sure drop general FFB strength to avoid clipping.

gp20
15-04-2016, 08:05
When you are saying pCARS is more slippery than iRacing, sorry then you have no idea what you are talking about. There's a reason people call it iceRacing.
I find that IRacing has too much understeer but the car feel like rolling on a surface which is not the case for Pcars, real drivers of formula 2 Renault have made the same comment (for the formula 2).
As i said perhaps there is too much break engine in Pcars.

gp20
15-04-2016, 08:09
This sounds like you're missing the lack of canned effects in PCARS' FFB.
I just know that my dfgt works fine with IRacing, R3E, AC, RF2 and Automobilista. And it works in the same way with differences but i can feel the car "rolling" on the road for all of them.

As i said Pcars is the only one which gives me another feeling and pretty bad.

Bealdor
15-04-2016, 08:12
Try driving on Brands Hatch and tell me if it feels better than on other tracks.

gp20
15-04-2016, 08:16
Try driving on Brands Hatch and tell me if it feels better than on other tracks.

I will try again with the thrusmaster and the PS4.
I spend a lot of time on the PS4 with PCars, that's what leads me to build a computer just for racing games. I'm not discovering Pcars and i know Brands Hatch.

hkraft300
15-04-2016, 08:21
This sounds like you're missing the lack of canned effects in PCARS' FFB.


With the DFGT, you should really try out the FFB settings from Jack Spade. You'll find them and the instructions over here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files). Just make sure drop general FFB strength to avoid clipping.


Try driving on Brands Hatch and tell me if it feels better than on other tracks.

I don't understand what you mean by break engine?
Certainly not engine braking.
I do highly recommend Jack Spade's ffb settings. The SoP settings work a treat even on the DS4.

gp20
15-04-2016, 08:23
I don't understand what you mean by break engine?
Certainly not engine braking.
I do highly recommend Jack Spade's ffb settings. The SoP settings work a treat even on the DS4.
When you release the throttle.

Silraed
15-04-2016, 08:24
I'm not discovering Pcars and i know Brands Hatch.

Bealdor recommended Brands because it is one of the few laser scanned tracks and has a very responsive road surface, it tends to feel very alive compared to some of the other tracks in game.

What in game FFB settings are you running for the DFGT? Have you changed anything or are you running it straight out of the box?

gp20
15-04-2016, 08:27
Bealdor recommended Brands because it is one of the few laser scanned tracks and has a very responsive road surface, it tends to feel very alive compared to some of the other tracks in game.

What in game FFB settings are you running for the DFGT? Have you changed anything or are you running it straight out of the box?
Straight out of the box.
I never spend time with ffb settings because i don't know what mean the parameters and because i have the same feeling with a thrusmaster ferrari and a PS4. So 2 different wheels on 2 different plateforms.
I can't think it's the hasard.

I will give a try to jack spade settings.

hkraft300
15-04-2016, 08:32
When you release the throttle.

Ah I see. I was wrong.
In that case: Jack Spade's 66% SoP settings will give you rear end feel at the wheel.
Call it canned, but without a motion rig or transducers its the next best thing.

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 08:39
Modified thread title.

havocc
15-04-2016, 08:43
I find that IRacing has too much understeer but the car feel like rolling on a surface which is not the case for Pcars, real drivers of formula 2 Renault have made the same comment (for the formula 2).
As i said perhaps there is too much break engine in Pcars.

Brake engine is abused by players because of no gearbox protection

Silraed
15-04-2016, 09:21
Does the DFGT require the same kind of deadzone removal as the G25/G27/G29?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-04-2016, 09:22
Definitely an odd one. We're accused more of being not slippy enough compared to the competition.Things have changed in Assetto Corsa land since those times, now their GT cars are drifters. =)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywmyp3GN9f8

Part of that behavior was due to a failed patch that refused to work even after a reinstall (had to manually remove every single file and registry entry to get the game working properly again) but even now the GT3 cars can drift very nicely.

RomKnight
15-04-2016, 09:40
I have to say the DFGT is not great indeed by default (still have one as backup)

Without tweaking it it can be a a bit of a let down BUT, i am used to a CSW so i'm way biased on this. But after having to spend a couple of weeks with it due to a problem a few months ago on my CSW, I had to dial the FFB.

TBH I was impressed on what I could achieve on that little wheel. Yes, it will always be way slower especially turning fast from left <-> right and it'll always be harder to catch that rear too but one thing is sure, it is NOT like driving on ice. If it feels like that, one will have a problem on their side, be it wheel, some corruption in the game (verify integrity cache on steam), forgetting to heat up the tyres for a couple of laps, using tracks like to Dubai that are, indeed, not as bumpy as designed, very low temperatures on the track not letting the tyres heat properly which requires setup changes (starting with pressure and maybe a more aggressive driving), whatever.

This means, it'll be impossible to convince me that there is no road feel because of a physics issue.

wesker6664
15-04-2016, 10:16
I wonder if there will be a physics upgrade for this version.
I feel like doing ice skatting with Pcars.
The physics is nowhere close to Rf2, Assetto, IRacing or RaceRoom...Unfortunatly.:(
I know what you mean, other sims give a very satisfying driving feeling right from the start without tinkering that much with FFB settings. Because it's a FFB problem you have, not a physics one.

Unfortunately i have to say that stock FFB settings in pCARS are not very good, and very far from exploiting the incredible range of possibilities given by the very complex mix of settings available. But, if you take the time to read the dedicated subsections in the forum and tweak FFB to your liking, you'll end up with a far better experience than any other sim on the market, IMO.

havocc
15-04-2016, 10:18
Things have changed in Assetto Corsa land since those times, now their GT cars are drifters. =)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywmyp3GN9f8

Part of that behavior was due to a failed patch that refused to work even after a reinstall (had to manually remove every single file and registry entry to get the game working properly again) but even now the GT3 cars can drift very nicely.

Out of curiosity how much steering angle and FFB force do you use in AC?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-04-2016, 10:44
Out of curiosity how much steering angle and FFB force do you use in AC?1080 and depending on the car between 0.6-0.8 for the FFB gain, too much saturation above that.

Yorkie065
15-04-2016, 10:47
I've only ever changed one thing in FFB, ever! I've not fiddled with any other settings and this one change makes the game and FFB come alive, providing all the details with regards to the tyres and road you'd want. If people could try this out and give their thoughts, it would be appreciated as a few people have tried it and liked it, but I kind of want to know from those who have a long tweaking and using tweaker files or whatever, what they think of this change.

It will probably require you to reset your FFB to default so make sure to note down all your settings and everything before trying it so you can revert back to normal afterwards if you don't like it. But the change is as follows:

Go into options > controls > Force Feedback Calibration > Change from 'Default' to 'Classic'.

It should be the very first option right at the top as soon as you open FFB calibration screen and it's the only thing I have done to the FFB and it feels better than any other sim I've tried. If others want to test and give thoughts, that would be greatly appreciated :)

Raven403
15-04-2016, 10:55
Never ever had a complaint about the FFB in Project cars on PC. I only ever just bump up the Master and SOP scale to around 38 and its great for me. Got the force at 100% as well instead of 75. Been great for me, Compared to the feeling on Xbox its miles ahead.

Sankyo
15-04-2016, 10:57
I've only ever changed one thing in FFB, ever! I've not fiddled with any other settings and this one change makes the game and FFB come alive, providing all the details with regards to the tyres and road you'd want. If people could try this out and give their thoughts, it would be appreciated as a few people have tried it and liked it, but I kind of want to know from those who have a long tweaking and using tweaker files or whatever, what they think of this change.

It will probably require you to reset your FFB to default so make sure to note down all your settings and everything before trying it so you can revert back to normal afterwards if you don't like it. But the change is as follows:

Go into options > controls > Force Feedback Calibration > Change from 'Default' to 'Classic'.

It should be the very first option right at the top as soon as you open FFB calibration screen and it's the only thing I have done to the FFB and it feels better than any other sim I've tried. If others want to test and give thoughts, that would be greatly appreciated :)
I don't have the same wheel as you so I won't comment directly, however as a general remark I'm quite confused when I read 'default pCARS FFB sucks'-type of remarks. FFB is highly personal so you cannot please everyone, but given the experience with my wheel I don't understand how people can qualify the default FFB as 'broken'.

Sure, if it doesn't feel like you want/expect (e.g. when being used to ISI FFB for a long time), you might want to change it. But that doesn't mean the FFB is bad, it's just different to what you're used to. Since FFB is basically more or less fake anyway because it's communicating some things through the wheel that you won't feel in a real car's steering wheel, classifying FFB as 'bad' or 'broken' is really missing what FFB actually is.

pCARS gives the player huge freedom to tailor the FFB, but that doesn't mean you have to. The default FFB can be different than what you've been used to, but that doesn't mean it needs tweaking. Maybe it just takes some getting used to :)

FWIW for my wheel I often only turn down the Spindle Master Scale to prevent clipping (the default settings clip quite badly on the CSW v2 for some reason), and the FFB feels fine with it. Sometimes I take a bit more time to bring out Fy more pronouncedly in the FFB because I like that personally, but IMO the default FFB already does a good job of letting me know what the car is doing.

Raven403
15-04-2016, 10:57
Things have changed in Assetto Corsa land since those times, now their GT cars are drifters. =)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywmyp3GN9f8

Part of that behavior was due to a failed patch that refused to work even after a reinstall (had to manually remove every single file and registry entry to get the game working properly again) but even now the GT3 cars can drift very nicely.

Gonna have to look into this, I played for a little while after the last patch and even when the tires were warm there was 0 traction at all, it was horrible, I was asking myself why they went to such a terrible tire model compared to how it was, maybe my patch install failed?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-04-2016, 11:14
Gonna have to look into this, I played for a little while after the last patch and even when the tires were warm there was 0 traction at all, it was horrible, I was asking myself why they went to such a terrible tire model compared to how it was, maybe my patch install failed?It's possible, I know mine did. Just remove everything in the steam folder where you installed it, everything in My Documents and everything related to it that you can find anywhere else too, then reinstall.

konnos
15-04-2016, 11:33
Try these with your DFGT:

100% strength in the Logitech Profiler. All other force (spring etc) sliders to 0.00, allow game to make changes ticked.

In-game FFB: 100

TF=75
DeadzoneRemovalRange=0.05
DRF=0.007 to 0.01

ScoopKnee and ScoopReduction = 0.00 NO scoops used,

RelativeAdj Gain = 1.10
RelativeAdj Bleed = 0.10
RelativeAdj Clamp = 0.75 to 0.85, i use 0.80

Soft Clipping = 0.00 for both

Steering Gain = 1.00

Anything not listed I left at default.

rocho
15-04-2016, 11:46
I have a DFGT and I am using Jack Spade's files since...years? :)
For me, the most important parameter which I had to change for a great feeling with the DFGT is Steering Gain, the default value makes Pcars undriveable, but lowering that value to about 120 completely modifies the FFB and I can feel every detail of Pcars awesome tyre model.

I have no complaints about FFB nor road feel. Maybe some tracks feel too smooth, but others are bumpy as hell. In any case, the feeling from the tyres is great.
Of course, I have rF2, AC, LFS and other race sims and I like them, but I think that Pcars is, for me, the best in general.

poirqc
15-04-2016, 12:41
I would maybe wonder if this is a FFB issue rather than an actual physics issue. Bad FFB can make it feel pretty ice skatey especially in the GT3 cars where they are so numb to begin with.

Indeed, having the FFB(Car and globals) setup in a wrong way can hinder the experience. With that said, with carefully placed tweaks, it can really make the physics shine. You can trow the car sideways on the tarmac and precisely know what's happening.


I've only ever changed one thing in FFB, ever! I've not fiddled with any other settings and this one change makes the game and FFB come alive, providing all the details with regards to the tyres and road you'd want. If people could try this out and give their thoughts, it would be appreciated as a few people have tried it and liked it, but I kind of want to know from those who have a long tweaking and using tweaker files or whatever, what they think of this change.

It will probably require you to reset your FFB to default so make sure to note down all your settings and everything before trying it so you can revert back to normal afterwards if you don't like it. But the change is as follows:

Go into options > controls > Force Feedback Calibration > Change from 'Default' to 'Classic'.

It should be the very first option right at the top as soon as you open FFB calibration screen and it's the only thing I have done to the FFB and it feels better than any other sim I've tried. If others want to test and give thoughts, that would be greatly appreciated :)

If you have to pick only 1 change, it's this one.

The problem with the "Default" template, is that it comes with too much Steering Gain. It basically sends the FFB into clipping range under too many situations.

resmania
15-04-2016, 13:28
you gotta try iRacing :p

Schnizz58
15-04-2016, 15:23
Even on cold tyres I can't think of 1 car that's nasty.
I submit to you the Mercedes Sauber C9. Drives great once the tires warm up but until then it's hard to keep on the track long enough to actually get them warm.

Alan Dallas
15-04-2016, 15:27
this

but there are some traps... usually the chicanes (like Bus Stop, Les Combes, NGK and Villeneuve) where you get no feedback & where the physics seem to go off-on-one and you've suddenly done a 180 with no smoke/noise on 4 hot and sticky 300mm wide race tyres.

That's a FFB tuning issue. I used to get that all the time until I took the time to properly setup my TX for pCARS. Now I feel everything the rear is doing and... surprisingly, no more unexplainable spins.

gp20
15-04-2016, 15:38
Can't get it working now after the update.
I don't know if it comes from the update or the driver.
I had to downgrade to the 16.2 Crimson version.
I get the menu but can't start a race, same issue with AC (which has an update too).
RF2, R3E and Iracing work fine.:

kevin kirk
15-04-2016, 16:02
There is something wrong with the physics of the game most of the cars handle different to what they do in real life and on most tracks you get to a certain corner you spin like you've lost all traction

Why hasn't all the cars all ready set up to race you want me to adjust every car it would take me years using this http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/bycar......becuase patches that effect the tires, like we have had in past patches means that any setup that was on the car will need to be adjusted for the effect those patches had on the tires. That's just a given if they have to patch something in that makes the tires better for the game.

konnos
15-04-2016, 16:58
Please try the DFGT settings I posted just above and tell me what you think, when you finally get your game working.

gp20
15-04-2016, 17:01
Can't get it working now after the update.
I don't know if it comes from the update or the driver.
I had to downgrade to the 16.2 Crimson version.
I get the menu but can't start a race, same issue with AC (which has an update too).
RF2, R3E and Iracing work fine.:
Ok i found the issue, i have to reload Pcars.
See you in couple of days. lol

Leper Messiah
15-04-2016, 18:37
I don't have the same wheel as you so I won't comment directly, however as a general remark I'm quite confused when I read 'default pCARS FFB sucks'-type of remarks. FFB is highly personal so you cannot please everyone, but given the experience with my wheel I don't understand how people can qualify the default FFB as 'broken'.

Sure, if it doesn't feel like you want/expect (e.g. when being used to ISI FFB for a long time), you might want to change it. But that doesn't mean the FFB is bad, it's just different to what you're used to. Since FFB is basically more or less fake anyway because it's communicating some things through the wheel that you won't feel in a real car's steering wheel, classifying FFB as 'bad' or 'broken' is really missing what FFB actually is.

pCARS gives the player huge freedom to tailor the FFB, but that doesn't mean you have to. The default FFB can be different than what you've been used to, but that doesn't mean it needs tweaking. Maybe it just takes some getting used to :)

FWIW for my wheel I often only turn down the Spindle Master Scale to prevent clipping (the default settings clip quite badly on the CSW v2 for some reason), and the FFB feels fine with it. Sometimes I take a bit more time to bring out Fy more pronouncedly in the FFB because I like that personally, but IMO the default FFB already does a good job of letting me know what the car is doing.

THIS so much this!!

Not having a go at the OP but it drives (pun intended) me insane when people who have never ever driven the cars in the games on the tracks in in the games IN REALITY. All they know is how it feels in another "game" and moan when pCARS isn't identical. Also people forget that what you actually "feel" from a real wheel is very different from what you "feel" from a game. Here in pot hole infested UK I drive over holes that an elephant can bathe in and I feel that through my arse NOT my wheel (unless I hit the pot hole at an angle that moves my front wheels). i.e. Up and downy (suspension) - not felt in wheel, sidey wisey (road wheel movement) - felt in wheel. Games put the road feel vibrations in for "perceived" realism when in fact, it's not actually "realistic" to feel that through a wheel.

AbeWoz
15-04-2016, 18:50
THIS so much this!!

Not having a go at the OP but it drives (pun intended) me insane when people who have never ever driven the cars in the games on the tracks in in the games IN REALITY. All they know is how it feels in another "game" and moan when pCARS isn't identical. Also people forget that what you actually "feel" from a real wheel is very different from what you "feel" from a game. Here in pot hole infested UK I drive over holes that an elephant can bathe in and I feel that through my arse NOT my wheel (unless I hit the pot hole at an angle that moves my front wheels). i.e. Up and downy (suspension) - not felt in wheel, sidey wisey (road wheel movement) - felt in wheel. Games put the road feel vibrations in for "perceived" realism when in fact, it's not actually "realistic" to feel that through a wheel.

i think a general rule of thumb IRL is you feel what the front of the car is doing through the wheel, and what the back of the car is doing through your seat/ass/arse/bottom. (correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what i have noticed in my spirited driving in my lowered,stiffened hatchback)
And you feel brake lock in the pedal

Wolkenwolf
15-04-2016, 19:03
THIS so much this!!
Games put the road feel vibrations in for "perceived" realism when in fact, it's not actually "realistic" to feel that through a wheel.

Dont know about your car but my car is telling me something through the wheel like engine vibration, (e.g stand still, push throttle, wheel is moving) street surface if not complete smooth. Not so much as in AC, but more as in PC. But its a Ford Focus, so maybe that are canned effects :D

unknwn
15-04-2016, 21:53
i think a general rule of thumb IRL is you feel what the front of the car is doing through the wheel, and what the back of the car is doing through your seat/ass/arse/bottom. (correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what i have noticed in my spirited driving in my lowered,stiffened hatchback)
And you feel brake lock in the pedal
While the rear is sliding the steering wheel will self align to the direction of the car movement. So technically you also feel what's happening in the rear through the steering wheel. Of course there will be many variables e.g. caster angle which will change the self aligning force of the wheel.


For me pCars FFB always seemed lazy/filtered. It appears that there are plenty things going physics wise (at least visually) while the car is jumping and "dancing" on the bumpy tarmac but the wheel is kind of sloppy. You can get a good impression of general forces like understeer and oversteer (actually its better than some of the other sims when adjusted right), but the speed at which things "happen" through FFB seems filtered/smoothed. This sloppiness means that I can't trust FFB for things that could instantly upset the car. For reference when driving stiff racing cars in rF2/AC (despite both being fairly different) they both provide sharper and more instant response, you can react or will feel every bump and how it changes the balance of the car which means you can react it accordingly where as in pCars the FFB seems to give "meh, I'll just stay smooth and continue with smooth sine wave signal" attitude when you are cornering through bumps at high lateral forces.

Above means that I have to drive more by using the steering inputs sequence which I have learned by practicing instead of reacting on the spot to every small detail that might upset the car, which is opposite of what I take as immersive FFB which I expect from a current gen sim.

konnos
15-04-2016, 22:27
@unknwn
How much Relative Adjust Bleed are you using?

unknwn
15-04-2016, 22:38
@unknwn
How much Relative Adjust Bleed are you using?
Now it's set as per Jack's Spade guide which is 0.10. However I have tried quite a lot of other values as suggested by different users.

konnos
16-04-2016, 07:05
Weird, I don't notice any delay as you describe in the FFB, something is off for your wheel settings I guess.

Sankyo
16-04-2016, 07:42
Now it's set as per Jack's Spade guide which is 0.10. However I have tried quite a lot of other values as suggested by different users.

It might be worthwhile going back to default or classic FFB, just to verify whether there isn't something in the FFBTweakers configuration that is causing the 'sloppyness'.

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-04-2016, 08:00
Changing the setup does not change the physics. That's funny right there BAD FFB all day, or something could be wrong with your wheel, wires touching wheel power supply might be dying ???? The plug

Leper Messiah
16-04-2016, 09:00
i think a general rule of thumb IRL is you feel what the front of the car is doing through the wheel, and what the back of the car is doing through your seat/ass/arse/bottom. (correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what i have noticed in my spirited driving in my lowered,stiffened hatchback)
And you feel brake lock in the pedal

Indeed, but what you don't feel is up and down suspension movement, at least not to the extent that you get in some sims. Grip loss/gain should be felt in the steering wheel. I don't think you feel brake lock per se, you feel the ABS. Braking g forces can only be replicated with a motion rig.


Dont know about your car but my car is telling me something through the wheel like engine vibration, (e.g stand still, push throttle, wheel is moving) street surface if not complete smooth. Not so much as in AC, but more as in PC. But its a Ford Focus, so maybe that are canned effects :D

I drive a golf and I do not feel engine vibration through the wheel, an engine is mounted to the chassis rather than the steering wheel so you'd feel that through the chassis/arse? I did have a wheel vibration at 70 mph, took it to the garage and wheel alignment was slightly out (so caused a slight "wobble" which at a certain frequency was felt via steering) and fixed. I drive over pothole and do not feel that through the wheel, but through me arse (unless as I say I hit at such an angle my steering is actually moved). I think what you are feeling in the wheel is your body/hands moving with the chassis rather than the wheel moving. Drive over bumps with as light a touch on the wheel as you dare and really concentrate on where these "feelings" are coming from.

Canned effects and what sim players perceive as reality and what is actually reality is not the same, a lot of ffb effects were added to help the gamer because so much info from driving a real car is just not there in a sim, unless you can afford thousands for a motion rig. I read that the recommended setting for AMS/GCSE for reality is LOW ffb effects, the difference between low and high are massive...I get way more FFB with the high setting, but it's not realistic.

unknwn
16-04-2016, 10:36
rF2, rF(with realfeel)/GSCE/Automobilista and AC simulates the forces directly acting on the steering rack. As I understand it should represent the forces acting on the steering wheel without power steering. Which would mean there are no canned effects like boosted suspension movement (unless there are issues/discrepancies in the suspension/tire modeling itself) or effects coming from the rear. There are some additional effects available that can be adjusted and in most cases is recommended to be turned off or is turned off by default.

If pCars is not simulating steering rack forces and considering that it allows to adjust the forces felt through FFB by adjustments to forces acting on the tires (Y,X,Z...) with an addition of SOP and G forces then it can be regarded as one of the most "canned" (at least by it's capability) together in the league of what RaceRoom Experience FFB is.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 10:59
If pCars is not simulating steering rack forces and considering that it allows to adjust the forces felt through FFB by adjustments to forces acting on the tires (Y,X,Z...) with an addition of SOP and G forces then it can be regarded as one of the most "canned" (at least by it's capability) together in the league of what RaceRoom Experience FFB is.pCARS does simulate steering rack, to the extent that you can adjust at what the angles of some of the levers that virtually connect the rack to the wheels are. The fact that you can (if you so choose) adjust the relative strengths of lateral, longitudinal, vertical and pressure trail forces doesn't go anywhere towards making it canned in any way, and neither does SoP (it's not a canned effect, it's a dynamic effect that uses data from sources other than just the steering rack). The FFB engine is capable of using the canned road noise etc. effects that e.g. AC uses, but they were turned off during development when pretty much no-one seemed to like them and they interfered with actual information being delivered by the FFB system.

unknwn
16-04-2016, 11:21
pCARS does simulate steering rack, to the extent that you can adjust at what the angles of some of the levers that virtually connect the rack to the wheels are. The fact that you can (if you so choose) adjust the relative strengths of lateral, longitudinal, vertical and pressure trail forces doesn't go anywhere towards making it canned in any way, and neither does SoP (it's not a canned effect, it's a dynamic effect that uses data from sources other than just the steering rack). The FFB engine is capable of using the canned road noise etc. effects that e.g. AC uses, but they were turned off during development when pretty much no-one seemed to like them and they interfered with actual information being delivered by the FFB system.

I think it comes down to understanding/definition of "canned" meaning, which is also why I used quotation marks. I have seen "canned" being used in many different ways. What I call "canned" is something that shouldn't be in the first place if you for example simulate only steering rack forces. What you call "canned" vibration can be created from the physics model itself e.g. higher slip angle stronger vibration, less angle less vibration, it's only a one variable but still from physics model. The fact there are more variables in the physics code or what you call "dynamic" from which the effect is created is not something that I would say defines canned vs non-canned (my personal opinion). In both cases the forces aren't realistic if they shouldn't be in the first place. If you do not agree with the above, how do you call those "forces that shouldn't be in the first place" in short? "unrealistic forces" (in the context of steering wheel forces)? I use "canned".

Regarding steering rack simulation in pCars. Is it similar to R3E where you have an option(slider) to choose the amount of forces coming from the steering rack vs directly from tires i.e. ratio (except that's its fixed in pCars)?
Considering how much vertical movement is affected by adjusting Fz it suggests me that a huge part of FFB vertical forces is directly coming from the tyres instead of steering rack.

Leper Messiah
16-04-2016, 12:52
rF2, rF(with realfeel)/GSCE/Automobilista and AC simulates the forces directly acting on the steering rack. As I understand it should represent the forces acting on the steering wheel without power steering. Which would mean there are no canned effects like boosted suspension movement (unless there are issues/discrepancies in the suspension/tire modeling itself) or effects coming from the rear. There are some additional effects available that can be adjusted and in most cases is recommended to be turned off or is turned off by default.

If pCars is not simulating steering rack forces and considering that it allows to adjust the forces felt through FFB by adjustments to forces acting on the tires (Y,X,Z...) with an addition of SOP and G forces then it can be regarded as one of the most "canned" (at least by it's capability) together in the league of what RaceRoom Experience FFB is.

Like I said I read that the recommended setting for realistic FFB in GSCE/AMS is low and when I did that the ffb felt a lot more like pCARS than it did on high. And it comes to how much up and down tyre movement SHOULD we feel in the wheel, going by my real world experience then I do NOT feel up and down movement in the wheel, I feel that in me butt. Anything that knocks the front wheels side to side are felt and I'm certain I feel that sort of thing in pCARS, like the initial "bump" of hitting into a kerb. I would imagine some games exaggerate things to give a gamer more information about what is happening. pCARS give us control over what to exaggerate or not.

Sadly though this is a circular argument where no-one seems able to quantify what they "feel" or do not "feel" in their wheels in reality and how much experience they have driving the cars depicted in the game at similar speeds and at similar location.

People can "prefer" one games ffb over another game all they like, I just take issue when armchair racers proclaim one games ffb "more realistic" than anothers. It's the argument of fanboys IMO.

unknwn
16-04-2016, 13:40
People can "prefer" one games ffb over another game all they like, I just take issue when armchair racers proclaim one games ffb "more realistic" than anothers. It's the argument of fanboys IMO.
There are details/characteristics that can be considered unrealistic from the standpoint of simulation by using common sense. In addition to that there are plenty of people who actually driven one or another car on the track and they share their experiences.

I do not believe one or another game is the most "realistic". It's unlikely that particular game got each of the cars right in every condition. The amount of bugfixing and continuous improvement of the available models/physics shows that.

konnos
16-04-2016, 14:10
If sims only simulated forces that you feel ONLY through the wheel, that would be the biggest waste of hardware, in my opinion. Most of the cars, and especially road cars have very little info coming through the wheel itself, we might as well just stick with a DFGT and not waste moneyz on better hardware.

By the way, did you try the DFGT settings I posted in a previous post?

Haiden
16-04-2016, 14:24
I used to play PCars with a PS4 and a thrusmaster ferrari 458 (yes it works) now i'm using a dfgt with a PC (WIN10) and i have the same feeling.
Perhaps too much break engine compare to the other sims kill this feeling?

I had a TX 458 Italia Edition wheel. It didn't feel anything remotely like driving on ice. Even the default FFB settings delivered plenty of grip feel. The only time it felt like driving on ice was when the tires were cold, which is expected.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 14:30
I think it comes down to understanding/definition of "canned" meaning, which is also why I used quotation marks.Traditionally canned effects have meant effects that aren't physics based, but prefabricated and played back when triggered by something, with some adjustments based on in-game parameters but nothing more. So for example you have effects like a bump effect that plays the same whenever you hit a bump, or a rumble strip effect that's played when you go over rumble strips, or a rumble when tyres are locking up, or a dampening increase/decrease when getting above a certain slip angle, etc.

As far as I know pCARS currently doesn't do any of these, all of the effects are derived straight from the simulation of the forces acting on the car, the tyres and the steering rack. There are many methods of making "unrealistic" forces via this method, but calling them canned when they're solely dependent on the physics engine and not predefined would be very odd to me, and contrary to the traditional definitions.

unknwn
16-04-2016, 14:47
If sims only simulated forces that you feel ONLY through the wheel, that would be the biggest waste of hardware, in my opinion. Most of the cars, and especially road cars have very little info coming through the wheel itself, we might as well just stick with a DFGT and not waste moneyz on better hardware.

By the way, did you try the DFGT settings I posted in a previous post?

Racing and cars suited for track days have quite strong forces. To simulate racing car a good starting point would be ~15nM wheel where as DFGT only does ~2,5nM. DFGT barely scratches the forces of what you get in RL racing car. Normally developers do not choose to include boring day-to-day road cars that have no feel IRL, instead they choose something that is sporty/drivers car (which also implies having some feel).
DFGT has enough force to simulate average road car (which IRL would be regarded as having weak feel) steering wheel forces while for example steadily cornering, but it doesn't have enough peak force when the wheel needs to quickly rotate very fast i.e. while drifting or correcting sudden slides.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 15:10
To simulate racing car a good starting point would be ~15nM wheel where as DFGT only does ~2,5nM.That can actually be somewhat debatable. Many if not most modern racing cars have power steering, and the heaviest measurements I've seen so far from non-powersteered cars has been with Champ Cars at very high speeds, where they were hitting in the 20 Nm range. It's entirely possible, even probable, that most power steered racing cars, especially the ones that don't have immense amounts of downforce, have powersteering that prevents them from going that high for simple reasons of comfort and driver endurance.

unknwn
16-04-2016, 15:24
That can actually be somewhat debatable. Many if not most modern racing cars have power steering, and the heaviest measurements I've seen so far from non-powersteered cars has been with Champ Cars at very high speeds, where they were hitting in the 20 Nm range. It's entirely possible, even probable, that most power steered racing cars, especially the ones that don't have immense amounts of downforce, have powersteering that prevents them from going that high for simple reasons of comfort and driver endurance.
It is debatable, because different cars will have different forces. Even if the car does 10nM you you want stronger wheel to avoid clipping or heating up up e.g. CSW max torque is rated only for peaks. Someone in rFactor2 forums mentioned that Accuforce which has ~13nM is till not fast enough if you want to simulate steering wheel rotation speed of the drifting cars IRL.

There was a list of the NMST (nominal max steering torque at steering shaft) in rF2 but I can't find it. For example Clio is rated at 12nM while Camaro at 40nM which is ridiculously high value.
Considering these values you need to take into account that that adding a wheel on the shaft results in lower forces that the driver will actually have to apply on the wheel. You need to have NMST ready motor and the same weight/diameter wheel to get 1:1 ratio.

Quote from rFactor 2 forum:


This is static measured torque data he has acquired over the years using a Sensor
Development hand wheel torque sensor:

Autokraft Midget = 6.0 Nm (55 in-lbs) No power steering, 380mm (15.0”) steering wheel.
Lola T332 = 5.5-8.5 Nm (50-75 in-lbs) No power steering, 318mm (12.5") steering wheel.
Dodge Viper SRT-10 = 4.5 Nm (40 in-lbs) Power steering, 350mm (13.7" steering wheel.
Lotus 20 = 4.0-4.5 Nm (35-40 in-lbs) No power steering, 330mm (13.0") steering wheel.
Lola T190 = 6.0-7.5 Nm (55-65 in-lbs) No power steering, 318mm (12.5") steering wheel.


Above is the amount of force the driver has to apply.
Although I am not sure about the testing conditions for the above and the meaning the word "static" in this case. It is only cornering? If yes, the peaks while hitting kerbs and such should be much higher.

Interesting video on how to calculate the steering forces of F1 V12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bynp2wiadKM
The max steering force wile cornering was calculated at 28nM, while cornering at max G was 24nM.

RomKnight
16-04-2016, 15:52
It is debatable, because different cars will have different forces. Even if the car does 10nM you you want stronger wheel to avoid clipping or heating up up e.g. CSW max torque is rated only for peaks. Someone in rFactor2 forums mentioned that Accuforce which has ~13nM is till not fast enough if you want to simulate steering wheel rotation speed of the drifting cars IRL.

There was a list of the NMST (nominal max steering torque at steering shaft) in rF2 but I can't find it. For example Clio is rated at 12nM while Camaro at 40nM which is ridiculously high value.

Exactly this. I remember reading that post at ISI foruns.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-04-2016, 16:10
Yeah, not gonna argue at all that more torque is needed from wheels. CSW, even the V2, really isn't that strong. When it comes to the super high end wheels like the SimSteering, the Accuforce and the best OSW wheels you start to get closer to the limits of real cars. It's also a tricky problem that while we need massive torque to accelerate the wheel rim as quickly as a car's wheel can move for example while drifting, you don't need that amount of force in the real car to stop the wheel, they simply couldn't drift one-handed in those situations if it did. So we'd need some intelligence to it, for the FFB to recognize when the wheel is being held and dial back, etc. Definitely difficult thing to sort out.

Wonder what the inertia of the AccuForce stepper motor is, looking at the OSW website it's clear that some servos and stepper motors have massive internal inertia whereas others (usually the really expensive ones) have very little inertia, that'd definitely play into how much power you need out of them to get up to the speeds required...

And 40 Nm on a Camaro? Like when, standing still with brakes applied? Crashing a corner into a concrete block, which forces the wheel back? That's a ludicrous amount of torque, I wonder what circumstances provoked it... =/

RomKnight
16-04-2016, 16:28
I don't know. Just reading that post which was written from one of ISI guys IIRC. I won't bother though, We do know our wheels are too weak and my right wrist is in danger if I ever got a DD motor :D

And I also know I have more strength on my CSWv2 than on my powersteered C-MAX using the "sport" mode :)

konnos
16-04-2016, 17:23
It is debatable, because different cars will have different forces. Even if the car does 10nM you you want stronger wheel to avoid clipping or heating up up e.g. CSW max torque is rated only for peaks. Someone in rFactor2 forums mentioned that Accuforce which has ~13nM is till not fast enough if you want to simulate steering wheel rotation speed of the drifting cars IRL.

That is all fine and we all agree on those things, we are not trying to replicate absolute forces, we are trying to simulate the dynamic range of these forces, scaled down to each wheel's capabilities. I insist that you please try my DFGT settings I posted a few posts back and tell me if it made any difference to your feel, are you using Jack Spade tweek files at all?

unknwn
16-04-2016, 17:49
That is all fine and we all agree on those things, we are not trying to replicate absolute forces, we are trying to simulate the dynamic range of these forces, scaled down to each wheel's capabilities. I insist that you please try my DFGT settings I posted a few posts back and tell me if it made any difference to your feel, are you using Jack Spade tweek files at all?

I am using more or less the same except:
RelativeAdj Gain = 1.10 (usually between 1.0-1.5)
RelativeAdj Bleed = 0.10
RelativeAdj Clamp = 0.75 (currently 0.90)

and ofc per wheel settings like deadzone/linearity adjustments are different.
Currently I am not running Jack Spade files at all.

wesker6664
17-04-2016, 10:03
For me pCars FFB always seemed lazy/filtered. It appears that there are plenty things going physics wise (at least visually) while the car is jumping and "dancing" on the bumpy tarmac but the wheel is kind of sloppy. You can get a good impression of general forces like understeer and oversteer (actually its better than some of the other sims when adjusted right), but the speed at which things "happen" through FFB seems filtered/smoothed.

i don't know what wheel you have, but it could be that you have too much drag (dued to ingame settings, or the inherent drag of the wheel). Have you tried playing with PWM/PWMS ? For the T500 i think i have PWM -0.05 / PWMS +0.03.

konnos
17-04-2016, 11:20
-0.02 PWM and 0.01PWMS is fine for a DFGT if i remember

gp20
18-04-2016, 22:12
Try these with your DFGT:

100% strength in the Logitech Profiler. All other force (spring etc) sliders to 0.00, allow game to make changes ticked.

In-game FFB: 100

TF=75
DeadzoneRemovalRange=0.05
DRF=0.007 to 0.01

ScoopKnee and ScoopReduction = 0.00 NO scoops used,

RelativeAdj Gain = 1.10
RelativeAdj Bleed = 0.10
RelativeAdj Clamp = 0.75 to 0.85, i use 0.80

Soft Clipping = 0.00 for both

Steering Gain = 1.00

Anything not listed I left at default.
So it works and it's night and day.
It's definitly a setup issue but i don't know why the dfgt works perfectly with the other games without a specific setup.

Now i feel like driving a cadillac, i think that i have to try the jack spade setup.

Thanks a lot for your help.:victorious:

What means TF?

gp20
18-04-2016, 22:17
-0.02 PWM and 0.01PWMS is fine for a DFGT if i remember
What means PWM?

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-04-2016, 23:11
Per wheel movement and per wheel movement squared

Schnizz58
18-04-2016, 23:13
Per wheel movement and per wheel movement squared
It's to compensate for wheels with a lot of drag or friction. It's sort of like power steering for your FFB wheel.

poirqc
19-04-2016, 01:42
So it works and it's night and day.
It's definitly a setup issue but i don't know why the dfgt works perfectly with the other games without a specific setup.

Now i feel like driving a cadillac, i think that i have to try the jack spade setup.

Thanks a lot for your help.:victorious:

What means TF?

Tire Force.

MarleyMoo
19-04-2016, 05:47
I'd like to add a bit info about electric motors: The average DC motor has something close to a linearly decreasing torque curve (torque vs rpm), that starts at the stall torque at 0 rpm, and crosses 0 torque at the no-load speed. Because the torque curve is a decreasing function of speed, if you want a certain torque while steering very quickly, such as in drifting, then there is going to be a lot of torque headroom for when you steer more slowly, such as smooth track racing.

One cheap way to increase torque is using reduction gearing. A 2:1 reduction amplifies the stall torque to 200%, BUT it also reduces the no-load speed to 50%. That means, when you steer quickly the torque drops much more steeply. This *feels* like steering wheel drag, but is in fact the loss of motor torque. The Logitech Driving Force Pro is heavily affected by this.

All of this means, when discussing how powerful a steering wheel's FFB is, you need to consider both the stall torque and the no-load speed. In other words, you need to consider the whole torque curve of the motor.

Using a motor that has lower Kv is similar to using reduction gearing.

gp20
19-04-2016, 06:00
I wonder if there is a wheel that works perfectly without a specific setup?

By the way they should provide different profiles.

Silraed
19-04-2016, 06:25
I wonder if there is a wheel that works perfectly without a specific setup?

The problem with that is what is "perfect"? That will differ from person to person, there will always be two people playing the same sim that will setup their FFB on opposite ends of the scale.

MarleyMoo
19-04-2016, 07:07
The problem with that is what is "perfect"? That will differ from person to person, there will always be two people playing the same sim that will setup their FFB on opposite ends of the scale.

It'd be perfect for me if the FFB torque is exactly what the real steering torque would be in the real thing, up to a scaling constant. Any other customization for FFB preference should be done in a realistic way by changing caster angle, toe angle, tyre inflation, steering ratio...

Sankyo
19-04-2016, 07:17
It'd be perfect for me if the FFB torque is exactly what the real steering torque would be in the real thing, up to a scaling constant. Any other customization for FFB preference should be done in a realistic way by changing caster angle, toe angle, tyre inflation, steering ratio...
There are way too many variables, approximations, omissions and uncertainties in the whole simulations train from boundary conditions to tyre model to chassis model to FFB conversion to wheel driver to wheel firmware to wheel mechanics to ever be able to claim 'exact' FFB. And that's not taking into account from the already-discussed point that 'real' FFB might actually be incredibly boring and uninformative, as much of the car's feedback doesn't come through the steering wheel.

IMO a game can get quite some car-specific handling and FFB right, but 'exact' is a bit too ambitious I think.

MarleyMoo
19-04-2016, 07:24
There are way too many variables, approximations, omissions and uncertainties in the whole simulations train from boundary conditions to tyre model to chassis model to FFB conversion to wheel driver to wheel firmware to wheel mechanics to ever be able to claim 'exact' FFB. And that's not taking into account from the already-discussed point that 'real' FFB might actually be incredibly boring and uninformative, as much of the car's feedback doesn't come through the steering wheel.

IMO a game can get quite some car-specific handling and FFB right, but 'exact' is a bit too ambitious I think.

That's why I said "it'd be perfect". Perfection is supposed to be too ambitious.

konnos
19-04-2016, 07:38
By the way they should provide different profiles.

I agree with you on this 150% (maybe 200% too). I've said this before, there really are not THAT many wheel models in the market. A few basic settings for the average wheel out there is not that hard. Couple that with a more balanced car ffb so that the average beginner to the game will not be hit in the face by a shovel...

P.S. The edits are real... 5 times in 3 lines of text!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
19-04-2016, 09:34
It'd be perfect for me if the FFB torque is exactly what the real steering torque would be in the real thing, up to a scaling constant. Any other customization for FFB preference should be done in a realistic way by changing caster angle, toe angle, tyre inflation, steering ratio...Problem is that even every individual wheel can have a different response curve to FFB signals, and that curve will change throughout the life of the wheel as the mechanics get gunked up and the motor starts to show its age. The only way to get what you're suggesting would be to supply every buyer with a standardized force gauge that could be used to calibrate the wheel response perfectly.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
19-04-2016, 09:42
I've said this before, there really are not THAT many wheel models in the market.DFP, DFGT, G25, G27, G29/920, T100, T150, T300, TX, T500, F430, Fanatec's Porsche wheels, CSR, CSR-E, CSW V1, CSW V2, Mad Catz, and so on. Then every time you change a rim to any of the ones that support it you must do it again. And (quite often) when the drivers for the wheel are updated, you must do it again. And then separate for each console and PC (since the consoles don't use DirectX FFB standards). You will very quickly rack up hundreds of different variations that you'll have to take into consideration, it's a much bigger effort than you seem to think.

And that is without even getting at the variance from wheel to wheel.

Yes, I do agree that the main ones, the few biggest contenders should be done, but then again, how should they be done? The default settings are already different for DFGT, G25, T500 and a CSW for example, but what should the default be? Everyone seems to be wanting something different from their wheels...

MarleyMoo
19-04-2016, 16:41
Problem is that even every individual wheel can have a different response curve to FFB signals, and that curve will change throughout the life of the wheel as the mechanics get gunked up and the motor starts to show its age. The only way to get what you're suggesting would be to supply every buyer with a standardized force gauge that could be used to calibrate the wheel response perfectly.

That is not a problem with my idea of perfection. It's a problem of execution. There are always problems in execution.

A force gauge is not the *only* way to do it. You can apply varying amounts of torque on the wheel, then measure the wheel displacement vs time. No extra hardware is needed. The manufacturer can measure the total inertia of rotational parts, then you can calculate the absolute torque at home.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
19-04-2016, 16:56
A force gauge is not the *only* way to do it. You can apply varying amounts of torque on the wheel, then measure the wheel displacement vs time.It's not the problem with the idea, I more or less share that definition of "perfection", but the execution is what matters in practice. Those methods can get you some way towards the result, but not all the way. Like was already mentioned, torque tends to go down as the motor rotates quicker, the rims aren't symmetric (usually they're somewhat bottom heavy, which alters the resistance during the rotation, largest when when the bottom spoke is pointing towards the sides, though measuring them mounted vertically could help with this), some wheels run into issues with their top rotational speed being reached before full torque is applied, many wheels these days have interchangeable rims and you can fit custom ones as well which would affect things, etc.

Measuring the wheel displacement vs. time is helpful, but it's not nearly as accurate as actually measuring the torque, particularly since a lot of the time we're interested in torque generated at very low rotational speeds (close to stall torque), not torque generated at high speeds.