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View Full Version : This game needs real licences and a rethink for PC2



Silverstone96
16-04-2016, 15:59
I love this game, the graphics, the physics, the feel etc but I've hit an absolute brick wall with it now - I don't play online admittedly but the career mode is so sterile with the same ropey weather system and short championships.

The game badly needed the custom championship mode which never came but I think it also really misses some proper licences, the indycar is great - but a 4 race cup against drivers with different names every season all of whom are so inconsistent it renders any championship battle useless. Same in the other championships too.

It didn't bother me initially but this game (well PC2 now) needs real drivers and teams with real championships, there's too much quantity in the game over quality all spread too thinly.

The game has lost all purpose for me ending up doing just single races, PC2 needs a different philosophy to truly make it a great game

Azure Flare
16-04-2016, 17:45
Or you could try other games...

mkstatto
16-04-2016, 18:38
I love this game, the graphics, the physics, the feel etc but I've hit an absolute brick wall with it now - I don't play online admittedly but the career mode is so sterile with the same ropey weather system and short championships.

The game badly needed the custom championship mode which never came but I think it also really misses some proper licences, the indycar is great - but a 4 race cup against drivers with different names every season all of whom are so inconsistent it renders any championship battle useless. Same in the other championships too.

It didn't bother me initially but this game (well PC2 now) needs real drivers and teams with real championships, there's too much quantity in the game over quality all spread too thinly.

The game has lost all purpose for me ending up doing just single races, PC2 needs a different philosophy to truly make it a great game

That would cost an inordinate amount of money to license all that content. I would say a more concerted effort to create fictional teams and drivers that reoccur or have manufacturer affiliates.

Small immersion lacking elements were overlooked in my opinion, like staying with a team that competes in multiple formula, for instance ART or Carlin. Or even the plain option to view what the car would like before signing the contract.

I agree with your points on the lack of customisable elements in career mode, knowing the rain will turn up at the same time is really a flaw to re-playability.

FS7
16-04-2016, 18:48
I agree that custom championships would add a lot of replay to the game, and I agree that certain classes could have longer championships in career, but I don't mind fictional driver names & fictional liveries at all (some of the fictional liveries are better than real liveries imo). Money should be spent licensing cars & tracks, using money to license drivers & liveries is a waste imo.

ELAhrairah
16-04-2016, 19:23
The game has been opened for modding now so lets hope our modders will come up with new stuff to create more atmosphere in the game.

I must say i did cheat a littlebit lately with AC and an iracing test account. After just a few hours i missed pcars so much I almost appologized to the games interface when switching it back on :D

KkDrummer
16-04-2016, 19:38
The game has been opened for modding now so lets hope our modders will come up with new stuff to create more atmosphere in the game.

I must say i did cheat a littlebit lately with AC and an iracing test account. After just a few hours i missed pcars so much I almost appologized to the games interface when switching it back on :D

yeah...there is a career mod that allows some level of customisation...maybe OP should give it a try...

Silverstone96
16-04-2016, 21:21
On ps4 unfortunately!

Do agree that liveries are brilliant in game - far more imagination than you see in real life!

SlowBloke
16-04-2016, 22:42
I love this game, the graphics, the physics, the feel etc but I've hit an absolute brick wall with it now - I don't play online admittedly but the career mode is so sterile with the same ropey weather system and short championships.

The game badly needed the custom championship mode which never came but I think it also really misses some proper licences, the indycar is great - but a 4 race cup against drivers with different names every season all of whom are so inconsistent it renders any championship battle useless. Same in the other championships too.

It didn't bother me initially but this game (well PC2 now) needs real drivers and teams with real championships, there's too much quantity in the game over quality all spread too thinly.

The game has lost all purpose for me ending up doing just single races, PC2 needs a different philosophy to truly make it a great game

No no no. Those licenses cost loads meaning less budget to deliver the brilliant diversity. I love the fact when I'm bored with gt3 I can hop into 15 plus other race series.

I could not care less if the cars have official liveries or driver names.

I care about the feel of driving and the brilliant mix - I would much rather keep those then end up with 10 tracks and 2 or 3 fully licensed series.

Azure Flare
16-04-2016, 22:46
On ps4 unfortunately!


You'll have to change your platform to PS4 so that sort of confusion doesn't happen again.

Udd-
17-04-2016, 07:15
Play online and the game will never be boring again. Simple as that :) just find some other clean racers and you'll have more fun than you can ever get with the single-player.

Konan
17-04-2016, 07:25
Play online and the game will never be boring again. Simple as that :) just find some other clean racers and you'll have more fun than you can ever get with the single-player.

There are other reasons besides the "fun factor"as to why some people don't play online though....

Cheesenium
17-04-2016, 08:02
On ps4 unfortunately!

Do agree that liveries are brilliant in game - far more imagination than you see in real life!

I actually love the in game fictional liveries. Majority of them looks insanely good while the grid is actually quite colorful and vibrant as opposed to the rather dull colors, mainly black and white in real life cars. I rather SMS kept doing fictional liveries than license official ones because the money to license these liveries could be used for more tracks and car licenses. SMS also hired one very very talentled WMD livery painter so pcars 2 liveries should look even better now.

I think the licenses in this game is quite good. It is important to know that this is pcars debut and you can literally hop from a road course NASCAR to a Formula Renault 3.5 to a road Grumpet Apollo. Then, hop into a AMG GT3 after some Group A fun and lastly, play another race with a V8SC. Also, it is hard to get a game out there that offers polished and varied content along with quite a massive list of tracks. Not mention, the dynamic weather does add quite a far bit of fun and immersion. How many games can do that?

pcars is not a prefect game by any means, for a debut game, I think SMS did an impressive good job at it.

m355y
17-04-2016, 08:23
I think PCars started very well, but in terms of the licences, the number of official liveries (which personally speaking I find very important) and the new content it's run out of steam long since. What we have is still a pretty good game and I admire the ambition. I tried the new AMG GT3 and had good run racing GT3 at Spa, the game is a lot more stable now and there's a lot to get stuck into if you still fancy giving it a blast but being honest over the past few months I've probably played it five, six times....I've moved back to playing more focussed games like F1 2015 (which IMO doesn't deserve the flak it gets at all) and DIRT Rally. Even Sebastien Loeb Evo. I just feel like PCars spreads itself a bit thin, the lack of a custom championship I'll never really understand, and so many of the added DLC has just been increasingly fairly unimaginative fictional liveries and less "official" stuff as time goes on. The Aston Lola was the first one that really gutted me - no Gulf livery? Seriously, why even bother then. It probably sounds daft to some, but it mattered to me. The Indycar was so watered down from the original announcement too.

I'm looking forward to Assetto Corsa now, a similar game in a lot of ways, to see how it compares.

mkstatto
17-04-2016, 08:27
Some kind of dynamic motor racing world would spice up the career mode, having a couple of fictional drivers following you up the career ladder. Its easier said than done, but if you look at the likes of bit ill core of drivers that came through Late So early 90's (Hill,2xMB's, Herbert, Brabham) all came through Karting/ lower formula at the Same time. Some made it to top level F1, others Gt. HAVING the Same names cop up with their own traits will enhance the career mode a great deal. To LA Race Driver nailed that quite well, granted they had an underlying story to enhance it (not saying that's needed.

DECATUR PLAYA
17-04-2016, 10:44
What about the licensing of a smaller series. I'm not the racing fan that some of you guys are so I don't know all of the smaller series but 1 that comes to mind since the next game is doing dirt. What about "World of Outlaws".

As a Pcars lover I think this game is just to good to not be represented by at least 1 real world racing series. Being a NASCAR guy and having their license process explained by the developers of their games ( over 500 licenses to make NASCAR) I understand the drawbacks to making the game this way. Still I think world's best racing game should be represented with at least 1 real world racing license.

I think this is why such a big part of the community was looking forward to the release of the Indy 500 content just to see Pcars at work in a real world setting.

Tomcul
17-04-2016, 11:18
Have you achieved all the accolades?

BreadedVirus
17-04-2016, 16:37
What about the licensing of a smaller series. I'm not the racing fan that some of you guys are so I don't know all of the smaller series but 1 that comes to mind since the next game is doing dirt. What about "World of Outlaws".

As a Pcars lover I think this game is just to good to not be represented by at least 1 real world racing series. Being a NASCAR guy and having their license process explained by the developers of their games ( over 500 licenses to make NASCAR) I understand the drawbacks to making the game this way. Still I think world's best racing game should be represented with at least 1 real world racing license.

I think this is why such a big part of the community was looking forward to the release of the Indy 500 content just to see Pcars at work in a real world setting.

A series such as the British Touring Car Championship or the WEC.

ELAhrairah
17-04-2016, 16:42
I think PCars started very well, but in terms of the licences, the number of official liveries (which personally speaking I find very important) and the new content it's run out of steam long since. What we have is still a pretty good game and I admire the ambition. I tried the new AMG GT3 and had good run racing GT3 at Spa, the game is a lot more stable now and there's a lot to get stuck into if you still fancy giving it a blast but being honest over the past few months I've probably played it five, six times....I've moved back to playing more focussed games like F1 2015 (which IMO doesn't deserve the flak it gets at all) and DIRT Rally. Even Sebastien Loeb Evo. I just feel like PCars spreads itself a bit thin, the lack of a custom championship I'll never really understand, and so many of the added DLC has just been increasingly fairly unimaginative fictional liveries and less "official" stuff as time goes on. The Aston Lola was the first one that really gutted me - no Gulf livery? Seriously, why even bother then. It probably sounds daft to some, but it mattered to me. The Indycar was so watered down from the original announcement too.

I'm looking forward to Assetto Corsa now, a similar game in a lot of ways, to see how it compares.

There are enough liveries made by the community just check the modding page and install the custom liveries mod and the custom grid tool. I added liveries and a grid simulating 75% of the le mans grid 2015. That kept this game for me interesting enough. And together with the superior graphics and the best weather and day and night cycle it survives until we see Pcars2 :)

Edit: you have a ps4 sorry didnt notice that initially

DECATUR PLAYA
17-04-2016, 17:16
A series such as the British Touring Car Championship or the WEC.

Those series would work for me. If they continued to build on they're relationship with IndyCar and developed just the IndyCar license alongside the rest of the games content that would be awesome to.

Shinzah
17-04-2016, 17:27
Those series would work for me. If they continued to build on they're relationship with IndyCar and developed just the IndyCar license alongside the rest of the games content that would be awesome to.

I'm not opposed to a dedicated Indycar game. The last one was in the PS2 era.

I don't really think having series licenses for a multiple discipline game is going to have all that much impact. I feel like most people are buying it for the car/track selection.

For a single discipline game having a series license is probably a must for impact, though.

ELAhrairah
17-04-2016, 17:59
Perfect game would be:

- WEC
- WTCC (perhaps cheapest licence?)
- road cars, gtr3's ( to please the gtr3 dudes here) and historic racecars that left their mark in the world racing history. Winners and biggest innovators. Schumachers ferrari, the porsche longtails etc.

Sankyo
17-04-2016, 18:41
...The Aston Lola was the first one that really gutted me - no Gulf livery? Seriously, why even bother then.
The Gulf livery was not possible/allowed to include, for undisclosed reasons.

Silverstone96
17-04-2016, 22:07
If they charged 20 for separate indycar game with all teams, drivers and track with career mode...I'd pay for that

FS7
17-04-2016, 22:10
If they charged 20 for separate indycar game with all teams, drivers and track with career mode...I'd pay for that
I'd pay $20 for all non-oval Indycar tracks, don't care about real liveries or drivers, though.

Cheesenium
18-04-2016, 03:58
If they charged 20 for separate indycar game with all teams, drivers and track with career mode...I'd pay for that

I rather not, it would be silly to launch another game just to drive Indycars while playing "normal" pcars for other content.

I am not sure why people want official series licenses, they cost a lot more money than fictional series where the money could be for more cars and tracks licensing to bring that a lot of people want. If the money to license official liveries for all cars in pcars 2 could also get Ferrari license, I rather take Ferrari with fictional liveries(if Ferrari allows) over official liveries for all cars. Also, knowing how livery validation works in WMD, official liveries would add more work for SMS as SMS also need to seek approvals from decals rights owners when you are using official decals. R3E's Bentley GT3 had been in months of approvals because Bentley is still going through all the official liveries approval.

In the mean time, having even official liveries does not mean you'll get more immersion where you have other potential issues that will break your immersion like having 5 Labre Competition (http://game.raceroom.com/store/cars/gtr-2/chevrolet/chevrolet-corvette-c6r-gt2) on the grid or 5 Lada Vespa WTCC (http://game.raceroom.com/store/cars/wtcc-2015/lada/lada-vesta-wtcc-2015) in R3E where you never ever get more than 3 cars with the same livery on the grid in any real life races. If you add more cars to the grid as the game supports up to 99 cars, that will be even more immersion breaking when you have half a dozen Corvettes on the grid with exactly the same number when you run large grids despite Corvette allows custom liveries. Then, you also run into the issue of some real life liveries for some cars only has 1 to a few official liveries, how are you going to allow a grid 30 cars if all the cars in that class has only a few official liveries? More importantly, whats the point of supporting large grids if all your cars only have a handful of liveries to choose from?

I'll take fictional liveries over official licensed liveries any day, I rather see Zipanol #4 and #5 along with Yiro Tires #45 and #46 than seeing 4 Corvettes with the same Labre Competition liveries. SMS did a fantastic job with these fictional liveries where many other games like Codemasters also did a good job on fictional liveries. If the fictional liveries are made to look reasonably good and authentic, I have no issue with fictional liveries.

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 04:21
I rather not, it would be silly to launch another game just to drive Indycars while playing "normal" pcars for other content.


I'm going to explain my reasoning for preferring that a named series content gets its own title.

First, and perhaps most importantly. It allows the developer to focus solely on getting the things in that series done, and done correctly. To be frank, I love the Dallara we have. But it is a far cry from the ideas we were getting on the WMD forum during development. With everything from Weight Jackers to the Indy 500 qualification procedure being discussed. SMS simply didn't have the time or the resources to create some of the content for the larger product.

Pcars is a great game, but it's not a reflection of any one series. It's a reflection of disciplines.

Secondly, this gives more visibility to the developer than just putting it into the game as an 'additional' series. It shows that they are willing to produce a licensed product of high quality. It's weird how this works, but this really does work. Single branded, licensed sports games *move units* . Even poorly done ones, in most cases.

While I agree with the rest of your post, that its not needed for the experience that a game like Project Cars provides. Having dedicated licensed content does provide the experience FANS of that particular content are looking for.

And while I'm not particularly pleased with the fanbase of Indycar, I do think they've got a right to be a little upset over not having a dedicated Indycar game for over a decade when F1 has had many, over several developers of fairly decent games.

Spitfire_88
18-04-2016, 05:05
I think, the idea of get more licences is impossibru, because this needs too much money, and real racing teams too, is very dificult to see categories with full grid of cars, for example, DTM, WTCC, BTCC, V8 Supercars, SGT500, Blancpain, IMSA, NASCAR, Indy car, maybe 1 or 2 cars for category, except GT3.

Rambo_Commando
18-04-2016, 05:28
I really like the approach Pcars took with the tiers. Official liveries and driver names is nothing more than eye candy to me. I hope they don't change the formula but rather build on it for Pcars2. Continue to give us more cars, more tracks, custom championship and non scripted weather in career. Most importantly, do not make drivers random in career. Ian Bell should always be a podium driver in FA or lmp1. This way we can have rivals in the game. Lastly, please do not base the FA car on the 2014-2016 Formula One car. Use 2013 or 2017 specs please.

Cheesenium
18-04-2016, 05:32
I'm going to explain my reasoning for preferring that a named series content gets its own title.

First, and perhaps most importantly. It allows the developer to focus solely on getting the things in that series done, and done correctly. To be frank, I love the Dallara we have. But it is a far cry from the ideas we were getting on the WMD forum during development. With everything from Weight Jackers to the Indy 500 qualification procedure being discussed. SMS simply didn't have the time or the resources to create some of the content for the larger product.

Pcars is a great game, but it's not a reflection of any one series. It's a reflection of disciplines.

Secondly, this gives more visibility to the developer than just putting it into the game as an 'additional' series. It shows that they are willing to produce a licensed product of high quality. It's weird how this works, but this really does work. Single branded, licensed sports games *move units* . Even poorly done ones, in most cases.

While I agree with the rest of your post, that its not needed for the experience that a game like Project Cars provides. Having dedicated licensed content does provide the experience FANS of that particular content are looking for.

And while I'm not particularly pleased with the fanbase of Indycar, I do think they've got a right to be a little upset over not having a dedicated Indycar game for over a decade when F1 has had many, over several developers of fairly decent games.

Not having the real series does not mean that you cant develop features to do the series properly. At the end, it is just a question of manpower, money and viability to implement these features, not the question of having full series licensed as many series licensed developers still miss out these crucial features like those awful NASCAR games or missing content in some F1 games.

The high cost of getting these license would also mean less time and money to properly polish up the game which at the end, it does not do the series justice. I rather see fictional series that is properly done than half baked fully licensed series. The problem with pcars is, SMS wants to do as much as possible, it just that it is not possible to have everything nailed in one game. Not having full series license also makes navigating through the licensing mine field a lot easier as it would be weird to have a WEC official game with no Porsche or a ADAC game with no Lamborghini.

I disagree that having license series will prove the developer's capabilities as if that is true, no race teams would bother to use rfactor Pro or AC for their own training usage or manufacturer promotional uses as it is what in the physics model and developer's capabilities that gives more visibility. At the end, no point having full series then you do a terrible job at them, like those WRC or NASCAR games that are terrible where are those games as successful as pcars in recent years?

At the end, fully licensed series is just a waste of money where the money could be used to develop a more complete game in terms of features and content. Those whiners can complain all they want about DTM, Indy or whatever, I hope SMS will never spend their money on series. R3E has plenty of series licensed, even a real German GT3 series where most people rather play the fictional GTR3 series with more cars and better liveries than ADAC while some of their unlicensed fictional classes are the most popular class.

Konan
18-04-2016, 06:01
Yep...hence the name of the game....
imo they (almost)accomplished what they wanted....a versatile game aimed to please as much racing fans as possible....
Whith the cancelled features included they would have come pretty close to perfection....sadly that wasn't possible for reasons explained before....
Still,i think they can be very pleased with the result....and are now moving on to(even) bigger and better i'm sure....

balderz002
18-04-2016, 07:00
If they charged 20 for separate indycar game with all teams, drivers and track with career mode...I'd pay for that

Bit tight, only twenty quid? What does the F1 game retail for?

Sankyo
18-04-2016, 08:41
Some people want real names and liveries to have the full "pretend" experience, while others find it good enough to have the cars and the tracks. Nothing much you can discuss about that really, apart from the facts and limitations surrounding licensing.

I'm very sure that SMS knows the appeal of real-life series, names and liveries to their customer base. The financial reality (not to mention exclusive licensing deals) does not allow them get all of it, sadly.

SlowBloke
18-04-2016, 09:04
Some people want real names and liveries to have the full "pretend" experience, while others find it good enough to have the cars and the tracks. Nothing much you can discuss about that really, apart from the facts and limitations surrounding licensing.

I'm very sure that SMS knows the appeal of real-life series, names and liveries to their customer base. The financial reality (not to mention exclusive licensing deals) does not allow them get all of it, sadly.

Thats the part that worries me - if they then say well lets please some people and take 40% of the budget to pay for that - that to me means 40% could have been spent giving more content - be that tracks & cars or a much better online experience or more bells and whistles (ie imagine setups for all cars and tracks, save setups to files, Crew Chief in game, 2nd screen telemetry app, much better replays, much more flexible UI on and off the track (see TonyR overlay for instance), multiplayer infrastructure and tooling all going missing or being done half *ssed..

I may be dreaming with some of those but hey - I'd prefer budget going there than official series :)

Silverstone96
18-04-2016, 15:23
Indycar isn't like F1 - hardly anyone watches it in comparison so imagine it wouldn't cost much

beetes_juice
18-04-2016, 15:29
^Facts.....

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 15:44
Not having the real series does not mean that you cant develop features to do the series properly. At the end, it is just a question of manpower, money and viability to implement these features, not the question of having full series licensed as many series licensed developers still miss out these crucial features like those awful NASCAR games or missing content in some F1 games.

Many developers of licensed sports games are little more than holdings companies to churn out the games for easy money for the larger companies that hold the licenses.



The high cost of getting these license would also mean less time

Why? Licensees rarely sell licenses with a deadline. That's usually a publisher thing.



and money to properly polish up the game which at the end,

I don't see how you figure this. There's a larger money sink involved in getting fifty dozen different cars from fifty dozen manufacturers than two and a series license.


it does not do the series justice.

Why are Papyrus and Sierra developed NASCAR and Indycar games considered classics among many, many fans of both the series and simracing? How come some of those developers are still working today to bring us well recieved experiences, like iRacing?

I thought GTR and GTR2 were great games. And GT Legends.

The MotoGP games haven't been terrible lately, either.

I feel like Codemasters lost the plot for a while, but from what I've seen of the last couple F1 games they look pretty good. Sony did a fantastic job with them and when EA was using ISI's engine they produced some great stuff too. GP4 is considered one of the greatest F1 simulation games of all times with a cult following TO THIS DAY. What did it have? An F1 License. And F1 cars.

Why does it make a game automatically terrible? The answer is, it doesn't.



I rather see fictional series that is properly done than half baked fully licensed series. The problem with pcars is, SMS wants to do as much as possible, it just that it is not possible to have everything nailed in one game. Not having full series license also makes navigating through the licensing mine field a lot easier as it would be weird to have a WEC official game with no Porsche or a ADAC game with no Lamborghini.

Pcars barely has two rulesets representing several different series. It falls flat there. There's been many (rightful) complaints about the rules and flags in pcars. Not to mention, the WEC clone has GT4 cars in the field. Something that would almost surely never happen in a professional world class racing series as it would be so ludicrously dangerous.



I disagree that having license series will prove the developer's capabilities as if that is true, no race teams would bother to use rfactor Pro or AC for their own training usage or manufacturer promotional uses as it is what in the physics model and developer's capabilities that gives more visibility. At the end, no point having full series then you do a terrible job at them, like those WRC or NASCAR games that are terrible where are those games as successful as pcars in recent years?

I didn't say it would prove anything. I said it shows the developers willingness to put a branded high quality product into the market, and it works to sell video games. You want a prime example? FIFA games sell berjillions of copies, every year. It's pretty much identical to the 2006 version with more polygons and different skins.



At the end, fully licensed series is just a waste of money where the money could be used to develop a more complete game in terms of features and content. Those whiners can complain all they want about DTM, Indy or whatever, I hope SMS will never spend their money on series. R3E has plenty of series licensed, even a real German GT3 series where most people rather play the fictional GTR3 series with more cars and better liveries than ADAC while some of their unlicensed fictional classes are the most popular class.

To each his own. I hope SMS seriously considers using their Indycar Series partnership to bring a separate product instead of trying to shoehorn the series into a bunch of other ones and doing a poor job representing the license and a decent one representing the cars.



Indycar isn't like F1 - hardly anyone watches it in comparison so imagine it wouldn't cost much

Ten times as many people go to or watch on TV the 500 than any entire F1 weekend. Making it the single most popular motorsports event, year on year.


^Facts.....

Cheesenium
18-04-2016, 15:49
Thats the part that worries me - if they then say well lets please some people and take 40% of the budget to pay for that - that to me means 40% could have been spent giving more content - be that tracks & cars or a much better online experience or more bells and whistles (ie imagine setups for all cars and tracks, save setups to files, Crew Chief in game, 2nd screen telemetry app, much better replays, much more flexible UI on and off the track (see TonyR overlay for instance), multiplayer infrastructure and tooling all going missing or being done half *ssed..

I may be dreaming with some of those but hey - I'd prefer budget going there than official series :)

There is likely a reason why licensed racing games are generally terrible because the money is used up on licensing with less for actually making the game good.

That's why I rather have fictional liveries along with a good selection of content. It is nice to see licensed series initially but after a while, it just feel nothing special as what keep you coming back to the game will be the physics, features and content.

I don't care it's Zipanol #56 or Phoenix racing on spa, as long the the physics is good with a good variety of content, I'll be playing Pcars for a long time to come. There is a reason why I played Pcars a lot, because there are tremendous amount of fun stuff to choose from where a licensed series game won't be able to offer.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-04-2016, 15:54
Ten times as many people go to or watch on TV the 500 than any entire F1 weekend. Making it the single most popular motorsports event, year on year.10 times? That'd mean over 40 million, which sounds like a stretch. =/

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 16:00
10 times? That'd mean over 40 million, which sounds like a stretch. =/

According to last years Nielsen ratings, the race had an average of 6million in America that peaked at a high 7million for the end of the race.

Given the event is broadcasted around the world, I'm not sure why it's so much of a stretch.

Edit: National numbers (America)
Compared to the most popular F1 race (Monaco) which only averages between half a million to a million viewers. That's six to seven times as much in America alone.

Edit2: And to cut off "Only America watches *crycrycrycry*" from 2007 to 2013, an American did not win the Indy 500. For a sport that doesn't have much alleged international appeal, there sure are a lot of different nationalities in competitors.

Finally Edit3: What does this have to do with Videogames. Why if I point out something as an example, people must start a debate about the example and not the topic it was representing?

Silverstone96
18-04-2016, 17:12
Yes a lot of nationalities race in but hardly anyone worldwide watches it! Shame as I think it's a great series but let's face it indycar has been in the shadow of NASCAR for 20 years now. And it doesn't even register compared to F1 in viewers outside of America as bad as F1 has been lately

Dakpilot
18-04-2016, 18:58
People only start a debate about an example because it is a bit wide of the mark, :cool: a single race cannot be compared to an entire race series, the comment about F1 v's Indycar was not about indy 500. rightly or wrongly, as a series, worldwide F1 is a bit bigger..

back to topic :D

I would just be happy if races were of a similar length with 'realistic fields' and convincing 'rules' compared to the cost of having to fully licence a series, the saved money being spent on development and content rather than licence fee

As much as I would surely enjoy it, a dedicated fully licensed Indy series only game would be a hard sell to many

Cheers Dakpilot

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 20:03
People only start a debate about an example because it is a bit wide of the mark, :cool: a single race cannot be compared to an entire race series, the comment about F1 v's Indycar was not about indy 500. rightly or wrongly, as a series, worldwide F1 is a bit bigger..

back to topic :D

I would just be happy if races were of a similar length with 'realistic fields' and convincing 'rules' compared to the cost of having to fully licence a series, the saved money being spent on development and content rather than licence fee

As much as I would surely enjoy it, a dedicated fully licensed Indy series only game would be a hard sell to many

Cheers Dakpilot

The comment was "Hardly anyone watches it" in comparison. In America at least, nearly seven times as many people can be proven to have watched it as F1 on the same weekend.

Schnizz58
18-04-2016, 20:24
In America at least, nearly seven times as many people can be proven to have watched it as F1 on the same weekend.
They let you out of the penalty box? Welcome back!

Heck I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I actually used to listen to it on the radio when I was a kid. The TV broadcast was tape delayed (you remember video tape right?) but the radio broadcast was live.

SlowBloke
18-04-2016, 20:40
The comment was "Hardly anyone watches it" in comparison. In America at least, nearly seven times as many people can be proven to have watched it as F1 on the same weekend.

Your assumed numbers of F1 global viewership vs Indy is way way way off....

Indy / Nascar are very America centric motorsport. The interest outside of the states is miniscule in comparison. Just like in the USA F1 is not as popular.

Same thing with American "Football" - sure theres an audience outside of America but its miniscule compared to Football (assuming your from USA - Soccer to you).

F1 viewership globally is approx 425 million and thats after taking into account the 5% decline recently.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-04-2016, 20:52
http://pentagist.com/top-5-biggest-sporting-events-world/

Wonder how accurate/relevant to 2016 that data is... Monaco GP gets to number five on the list, beaten by the Super Bowl, and no other motorsports are found on that list.

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 20:52
Your assumed numbers of F1 global viewership vs Indy is way way way off....

Indy / Nascar are very America centric motorsport. The interest outside of the states is miniscule in comparison. Just like in the USA F1 is not as popular.

Same thing with American "Football" - sure theres an audience outside of America but its miniscule compared to Football (assuming your from USA - Soccer to you).

F1 viewership globally is approx 425 million and thats after taking into account the 5% decline recently.



If Indycar is a "Very American" Centric sport, why is it statistically more likely for an American to get an F1 ride than a Indycar one?

Seriously. Rethink this.

Indycar is INCREDIBLY popular in both Americas (North and South) in addition to Asia (Japan especially, where F1 has been on the decline over recent years) and in Australia. It's not a sport that's only broadcast in America. It's not a sport that's only tied to America and it's certainly not a sport that only Americans watch.

Just like its absolutely ludicrous, wrong and willfully ignorant of me to say that Licensed F1 games shouldn't exist because "Hardly anyone watches it in comparison". It's Ludicrous, Wrong, and Willfully ignorant to say that a Licensed Indycar game shouldn't exist because it's not as popular overseas, when in fact, it's actually quite popular overseas and your lack of exposure to it does not change that fact in any way, ever.


Edit:

http://pentagist.com/top-5-biggest-sporting-events-world/

Wonder how accurate/relevant to 2016 that data is... Monaco GP gets to number five on the list, beaten by the Super Bowl, and no other motorsports are found on that list.


Frankly, you're better than this. Stop.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-04-2016, 21:01
Do you have access to any numbers for worldwide IndyCar viewerships? These things are really hard to dig out. F1 seems to be quoting between 420-450 million viewers for the last few years, which would average to over 20 million per race (some races definitely more popular than others), but I can't really find anything about IndyCar's global viewerships. EDIT: The only figures I'm seeing for IndyCar are US centric and average out to some hundreds of thousands per race (but that's only for NBC, possible other channels and online aren't counted into that), with Indy 500 reaching several millions.


FWIW I have no stance on whether individual series licenses hurt or help games, that doesn't interest me in the least, but the question of the popularity of these series does. The only thing I can say is that outside of pCARS forums the only non-Americans (be that North or South) that I've talked to who knew what IndyCar was knew about it due to the old Papyrus games, and those are bound to be a stupendously small part of the population. Basically, outside of people I've talked with in the sim racing communities, no-one has ever known what IndyCar is. That's of course purely anecdotal.

EDIT: http://www.statista.com/statistics/231900/number-of-viewers-of-any-indycar-series-events-on-broadcast-tv-usa/
That would show that between 9 and 13 million people tend to watch at least one IndyCar race per year in the States, still hunting for international figures.

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 21:08
Do you have access to any numbers for worldwide IndyCar viewerships? These things are really hard to dig out. F1 seems to be quoting between 420-450 million viewers for the last few years, which would average to over 20 million per race (some races definitely more popular than others), but I can't really find anything about IndyCar's global viewerships.

Of course not. That's why when you decided to attack the example I went with national viewership ratings which were comparatively, very easy to get. Not a pulp list site with unsourced information. That's just, so beneath you.



FWIW I have no stance on whether individual series licenses hurt or help games, that doesn't interest me in the least, but the question of the popularity of these series does. The only thing I can say is that outside of pCARS forums the only non-Americans (be that North or South) that I've talked to who knew what IndyCar was knew about it due to the old Papyrus games, and those are bound to be a stupendously small part of the population. Basically, outside of people I've talked with in the sim racing communities, no-one has ever known what IndyCar is. That's of course purely anecdotal.

I know more Canadians, Englishmen and Australians involved in Indycar than I've ever known United States Citizens to be involved in it.
Again, just because you're not exposed to something where you go, or wherever you are. Does not make it cease to exist.

Hardly anyone I talk to knows about CRC or Targa Newfoundland. I have talked to people *IN* Newfoundland who have no idea what the Targa Newfoundland is. CRC Is a national competition, and most people in this country I talk to about it - have no idea what it is.

Edit: Following up to be completely candid I know one person in my social circle who watches the NBA. He's from the Philippines. Most of the non-canadians I know who watch the NHL, are either in England or in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland. With only really two Americans I talk to watching it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. While I can appreciate that people can only speak from experience, it's only their experience, and they do not have the agency to generalize entire population bases on their experiences.

DECATUR PLAYA
18-04-2016, 21:12
Let's remember that there was this huge strike for IndyCar and for a little while there was no IndyCar. In the days before that strike IndyCar was huge.

Anyway back on topic. I mentioned IndyCar only because SMS already has a relationship with them. As I mentioned before what about the smaller series they can't be as expensive as Nascar, F1, or INDY or the GT3 license for that matter. Once again this isn't a complaint for Pcars just a way to make the game better.

Just imagine a 2 disc set for a $100 bucks. Would you pay for it I would especially for Indy content and they could sell the regular Pcars for $60.

SlowBloke
18-04-2016, 21:16
If Indycar is a "Very American" Centric sport, why is it statistically more likely for an American to get an F1 ride than a Indycar one?

Seriously. Rethink this.

Indycar is INCREDIBLY popular in both Americas (North and South) in addition to Asia (Japan especially, where F1 has been on the decline over recent years) and in Australia. It's not a sport that's only broadcast in America. It's not a sport that's only tied to America and it's certainly not a sport that only Americans watch.

On the American centric - we are talking viewership - not driver skill / suitability... There are many many race series around the globe hence statistically there will be many many more indycar suitable drivers coming from places outside the USA.

Ive travelled the world for 8 years and spent months in the Far East - F1 was notable in most countries Ive been too (100+) and American motorsport was not.

Never said its only broadcast in America - and agree it can be watched outside of America but I stand by what I said about F1 being significantly more popular around the globe on average vs Indycar.

It is a sport that is much bigger in America than around the globe - thats a fact.

Broadcasting wise - there is Indycar outside of America however typically its not well known and is on oddball channels. F1 on the other hand is prime sport channel content and in disturbing trend behind pay wall (to its own detriment as a significant part of the already peed off audience will not pay for that).

I also will say its on the decline and deservedly so because of this and the stupid decision being taken. Yes they are still powerful but sound like hairdryers.. way too many egos and the sport is no longer about the spectacle.

Im not against Indy / Nascar - they absolutely seem to get its a spectator sport.

Also I did not say a licensed indycar game should not exist.

Dakpilot
18-04-2016, 21:26
As far as i know there have only been 2 US drivers in F1 in the last ten years, (could be wrong there) one of which is now driving in Indycar, how many US drivers are in Indycar? I am genuinely interested in your statistics, not being confrontational

Most people in Uk have never even heard of the English drivers who made a career in Indy except perhaps those who came from F1, I enjoy Indycar and am not knocking it in any way, but your defence of it seems a bit non factual from a world view

Cheers Dakpilot

Konan
18-04-2016, 21:28
Your assumed numbers of F1 global viewership vs Indy is way way way off....

Indy / Nascar are very America centric motorsport. The interest outside of the states is miniscule in comparison. Just like in the USA F1 is not as popular.

Same thing with American "Football" - sure theres an audience outside of America but its miniscule compared to Football (assuming your from USA - Soccer to you).

F1 viewership globally is approx 425 million and thats after taking into account the 5% decline recently.

True...but a lot of people outside of the USA haven't got the opportunity to watch because it simply isn't broadcasted...
If they would broadcast NASCAR or Indycar in Belgium i would surely watch it...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-04-2016, 21:37
That's sort of the thing, a series having drivers from around the world doesn't mean it has viewers from around the world, it just means drivers world wide have found jobs. And professional racing people are more aware of what IndyCar etc. have to offer than laypeople. Even in Finland, where we take racing very seriously, incredibly few people know anything about racing series other than WRC and F1, because no-one pays attention to anything else. Even people like Toni Vilander, who has been a very successful GT driver for years now, only became known when he was hired as an F1 commentator. JJ Lehto is only known as that F1 driver that didn't quite do anything useful, barely anyone knows he won Le Mans twice, and absolutely no-one has any idea he raced in ALMS, or really even what ALMS is. And this is Finland, where a Finn winning in motorsports should be the biggest frigging thing ever.

I just don't think that people world wide being involved professionally with IndyCar (or most any racing series) translates that well to people world wide watching it.

EDIT: Wonder how long NASCAR will be on Finnish pay channels, people are already making campaigns for getting it out and replaced with something else...

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 21:40
On the American centric - we are talking viewership - not driver skill / suitability... There are many many race series around the globe hence statistically there will be many many more indycar suitable drivers coming from places outside the USA.

Most drivers would like to stay closer to home while on a motorsports ladder. Not many people want to relocate to a foreign nation in order to continue working a career that *probably* is not going to work out for them. You do not see many Mexican drivers in Canadian series, even if the barrier to entry is lower here than it would be for them.

A driver is going to be *serious* about competing in the road to Indy. This is a programme that has had people switch from European F3, GP2 and F1 to compete in Indycar. Talented drivers who could continue in their divisions or move to more localized ones.



Ive travelled the world for 8 years and spent months in the Far East - F1 was notable in most countries Ive been too (100+) and American motorsport was not.

How long ago? Time plays a big factor in many things - Like say for example, were you traveling the world when there were Asian drivers in F1? Inoue? Kobayashi? During the time when Honda or Toyota were popular in the sport? Or more recently, with Honda being barely a midfielder and next to no Asian driver influences?



Never said its only broadcast in America - and agree it can be watched outside of America but I stand by what I said about F1 being significantly more popular around the globe on average vs Indycar.

It is a sport that is much bigger in America than around the globe - thats a fact.

Sure and F1 is bigger in Brazil than it is in France. I never contended it was more popular outside of America. Just that it's significantly more popular than "Not at all."



Broadcasting wise - there is Indycar outside of America however typically its not well known and is on oddball channels. F1 on the other hand is prime sport channel content and in disturbing trend behind pay wall (to its own detriment as a significant part of the already peed off audience will not pay for that).


Very well known Australian commentator, Richard Craill. Residence: Lyndoch, Australia.

From his website (craillsy.com):


His goal is to one day commentate on the Indianapolis 500 – his favourite race.

Sure this is one person, but given this race aired at six in the morning it does go to show there are dedicated fans to the sport outside of America.

https://twitter.com/Craillsy

You show me "Well hardly anyone yadda yadda" I could probably find a person, in your country, absolutely dedicated to the sport. This is a matter of perspective. Being blind about somethings existence because you haven't experienced it, or refuse to experience it. You're just one tiny little individual, and this is referencing a scale of millions of individuals nationally and globally.

There's probably more people in England that know what an Indycar is than there is who know what BriSCA is. There's probably more people in England that know what BriSCA is than who know that MoSport is near a town called Bowmanville and is much closer to Oshawa than it is Toronto; even though it's often referred to as being near Toronto.



Also I did not say a licensed indycar game should not exist.
Then why are we even having this discussion?

LogRoad
18-04-2016, 21:49
I reckon the number of us who love racing video games but never been to a race track and don't own a TV must be pretty small. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my unlimited nonstop sailing circumnavigation racing sim - with full control of all sails, full weather and sea state sim, all weather and navigation aids, a harbor full of historic boat designs to choose from as well as a complete boat design package for rolling your own, including tris and cats of course and throw in some of those freakish all-ballast mono hulls if you must. Do you suppose there's a place on the global video game wish list for this?

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 21:51
and absolutely no-one has any idea he raced in ALMS, or really even what ALMS is. And this is Finland, where a Finn winning in motorsports should be the biggest frigging thing ever.


J'accuse! https://twitter.com/PekkaSoderlund/status/721798435897241601

Watch as the generalization just...just falls away. Like white fluffy snow in spring. Melting as it hits the ground. Rekt by the warm reality that generalizations are ridiculous and all of us should not do them.

Konan
18-04-2016, 21:51
I reckon the number of us who love racing video games but never been to a race track and don't own a TV must be pretty small. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my unlimited nonstop sailing circumnavigation racing sim - with full control of all sails, full weather and sea state sim, all weather and navigation aids, a harbor full of historic boat designs to choose from as well as a complete boat design package for rolling your own, including tris and cats of course and throw in some of those freakish all-ballast mono hulls if you must. Do you suppose there's a place on the global video game wish list for this?

Yes...Project Catamaran...lol

gregc
18-04-2016, 21:58
Yes...Project Catamaran...lol

Project CATS, surely...

I'll get my coat

LogRoad
18-04-2016, 22:00
Sign me up!

Schnizz58
18-04-2016, 22:06
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my unlimited nonstop sailing circumnavigation racing sim - with full control of all sails, full weather and sea state sim, all weather and navigation aids, a harbor full of historic boat designs to choose from as well as a complete boat design package for rolling your own, including tris and cats of course and throw in some of those freakish all-ballast mono hulls if you must. Do you suppose there's a place on the global video game wish list for this?
I thought of trying to do an America's Cup game one time. I figured it would sell in the dozens at least.

Konan
18-04-2016, 22:07
Sign me up!

Sorry...you have to be found in a bar and beaten by a blunt object until you are so out of it you sign with a cross in order to become a crew member....oh wait...wasn't that a movie i once saw? Lol

LogRoad
18-04-2016, 22:11
@ Schnizz58:
Yeah, but there's so much more to ocean racing. Although I'll have to say I went pretty gaga first time I caught video of those big cats romping around San Francisco Bay (I was visiting a household with TV).

@ Konan:
At the moment true enough, but didn't used to be so.

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 22:14
Yeah, but there's so much more to ocean racing. Although I'll have to say I went pretty gaga first time I caught video of those big cats romping around San Francisco Bay (I was visiting a household with TV).

Honestly, I wish there was better coverage of the Clipper and the Volvo Ocean Race (Formerly Whitbread).

Dakpilot
18-04-2016, 22:16
Indycar isn't like F1 - hardly anyone watches it in comparison so imagine it wouldn't cost much

Shinza, Just admit that this statement is not so wrong, not the Indy 500 vs Monaco, but Indycar series compared to F1 season, the worldwide viewing figures over a year really would make sense in this case

as for American drivers in F1, the last one to win a race was 38 years ago, how many Indycar races have been won by American drivers in that time?

you asked why people sidetracked the thread....but you have been digging the hole it has fallen into :cool:

No worries

Cheers Dakpilot

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-04-2016, 22:17
J'accuse! https://twitter.com/PekkaSoderlund/status/721798435897241601

Watch as the generalization just...just falls away. Like white fluffy snow in spring. Melting as it hits the ground. Rekt by the warm reality that generalizations are ridiculous and all of us should not do them.Generalizations are different from hyperbole tho, it's just difficult to tell them apart sometimes. =)

Admittedly ALMS knowledge has expanded due to Vilander being an F1 commentator, had he not pulled that off that tweet quite likely wouldn't exist.

Schnizz58
18-04-2016, 22:18
Yeah, but there's so much more to ocean racing.
AC2

Shinzah
18-04-2016, 22:29
Shinza, Just admit that this statement is not so wrong, not the Indy 500 vs Monaco, but Indycar series compared to F1 season, the worldwide viewing figures over a year really would make sense in this case

I'm not admitting that a sweeping generalization is right, because it's not. Why would I willingly lie about something?



as for American drivers in F1, the last one to win a race was 38 years ago, how many Indycar races have been won by American drivers in that time?

Probably fewer than you think.



you asked why people sidetracked the thread....but you have been digging the hole it has fallen into :cool:


I have this nasty habit of believing polite and civil conversation means being involved with people who address you. When I'm addressed, I respond. If I see something I wish to reply to, I do. I personally don't care about thread topics so much as I do statements but, all I offered was an example at first and this sparked a huge massive cock comparing contest. As it always seems to. It really didn't have to. It really wasn't my intention and inevitably, I'll probably be blamed for it anyway.



No worries

None at all m8





Admittedly ALMS knowledge has expanded due to Vilander being an F1 commentator, had he not pulled that off that tweet quite likely wouldn't exist.

Not in that case. That's both Hyperbole and Post hoc, Ergo propter hoc.

You can't say that with any form of definiteness whatsoever because I can't disprove it on objective grounds, nor can you prove it. The truth is what's presented: You said "No-One". That was incorrect. Someone did. Whether or not they did it because of one event or another is entirely up to speculation. While I'm reasonable enough to know you probably didn't mean Lit. No-One, you still said what you said and I presented something totally contrary to it.

Dakpilot
19-04-2016, 00:19
If you go back to the Michael Andretti era of Indycar, since then more than 200 races have been won by American drivers, you have to go back to 1978 to find his father Mario, the most recent American to win a Formula 1 race

still waiting for your statistics that show it is easier for an American to get a ride in F1 than Indycar, careful with your hyperbole stated as facts, it will come back to bite you :cool:

Cheers Dakpilot

BreadedVirus
19-04-2016, 01:38
There is likely a reason why licensed racing games are generally terrible because the money is used up on licensing with less for actually making the game good.

That's why I rather have fictional liveries along with a good selection of content. It is nice to see licensed series initially but after a while, it just feel nothing special as what keep you coming back to the game will be the physics, features and content.

I don't care it's Zipanol #56 or Phoenix racing on spa, as long the the physics is good with a good variety of content, I'll be playing Pcars for a long time to come. There is a reason why I played Pcars a lot, because there are tremendous amount of fun stuff to choose from where a licensed series game won't be able to offer.

The RWD and Marek LMP cars are fantastic fictional racers. More exciting than the Audi, Toyota and Oreca LMP cars.

Would be nice to have updated RWD and Marek cars in PCARS 2

Shinzah
19-04-2016, 01:47
If you go back to the Michael Andretti era of Indycar, since then more than 200 races have been won by American drivers, you have to go back to 1978 to find his father Mario, the most recent American to win a Formula 1 race

I did say more than you probably think. You're not exactly providing anything concrete yourself.



still waiting for your statistics that show it is easier for an American to get a ride in F1 than Indycar, careful with your hyperbole stated as facts, it will come back to bite you :cool:


I said it was statistically more likely for them to get a ride. Qualifying this with presently, as I'm not going to go back to 1983 to make a point - like you seem want to do.

Lets perform simple math:

In the Indy Lights (Premier feeder series for Indycar) in 2015 there was 7 (North) Americans competing full time (6 U.S.A - 1 P.R)

The drivers champion was Spencer Pigot. He got a ride with Schmidt Peterson. Considering that the field, max, for Indycar is 33. *And* being generous in saying that all 32 other drivers will compete in the championship. That's one American out of 33.

From Indy Lights other Americans to get rides: None.
Other American rookies (2016): Rossi.

Other rookies (2016): Chilton (GB), Brabham (AUS)

That's two new Americans/33. Or ~6% of the entire field.


F1. For the purposes of this summary I will be going by new Superlicense holders V Rookie drivers. (Qualifying that's the only way this can really work, as F1 doesn't really have a "Rookie" system.)

New (North) American drivers in 2016: Celis. (Mex. Sahara Force India Reserve Driver.)

One American/22

4.6%

With Rossi double signed. If we were to remove him from Indycar it would reduce the percentage to ~3%.

By percentage breakdown:

Total New North American Drivers in Indycar field of 33 ~6%
New Drivers from Other Continents in Indycar field of 33 ~6%


Total New North American Drivers in Formula 1 field of 22 ~4.6% (Celis - One Day FP Superlicense in Bahrain.)
Total New Drivers in Formula 1 field of 22 from other continents entirely. Zero. (Haryanto recieved his superlicense in 2012.)

In 2016, literally 100% (So far) of new drivers participating in the 2016 Formula 1 season were American, On a minor technicality.
VS 50% of new drivers participating in Indycar.

Bummer, huh.

Edit2: Please don't come back with things like "Mexico and Puerto Rico aren't America! I mean America (The United States). No. Say "The United States". Or "U.S.A". Otherwise the only implication you're allotted is that you mean NORTH America the continent, opposed to SOUTH America the continent.

Edit2: Still has nothing to do with videogame licensing. It was a fun exercise though.