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Joseph Barron
28-04-2016, 11:43
Round 2 of the NVIDIA Challenger Series opens tonight at midnight UK time.

Enter via the Community Events screen in-game, on all platforms. You will be driving the Corvette C7.R from the US Race Car Pack at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca.

Only teams which registered during preseason will be eligible to score team championship points.

All drivers are eligible for driver championship points.

In the 2016 season, there are separate Divisions for PC and Console players. The PS4 and Xbox One physics/handling code is the same. There are some minor differences between the two consoles and PC, which is why we have separate Divisions for PC and Console.

Event regulations

Please read the FULL regulations on our Esports website (http://www.projectcarsesports.com/2016-nvidia-challenger-series.html). It is your responsibility as a competitor to read these. If you breach the rules either deliberately, or accidentally, ignorance is not an excuse.

TRACK LIMITS

It is critical that you obey the rules on track limits.

Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. A driver will be judged to have left the track if fewer than two wheels remain in contact with the track.

It is possible that you can cut the track or run wide without the game penalising you, and therefore your time & ghost will still appear on the leaderboard. SMS staff will review all of the ghost laps in the top 30 positions on all platforms to check whether drivers have stayed on track for their entire lap.

If we can see from your ghost that you cut the track or ran wide at any point, then we will not include your time in the official results.

In exceptional circumstances where many drivers go off track, we may have fewer than 20 valid times in a Division at the end of the event. However, to avoid further confusion this season, we will no-longer consider times from outside the top 30 to fill out the remaining points positions if these circumstances occur. Only the top 30 event ghosts will be considered from now on.

You must obey the track limits rules around the entire circuit, but please pay particular care on all wide kerbs, on any tarmac/concrete/painted run-off areas and in any areas of sand, gravel or grass.

At Laguna Seca you should be particularly careful in the Corkscrew. From the cockpit/helmet camera it can be very difficult to tell for certain if you have cut this corner or not, due to the steep elevation change. If you are concerned about this, please consider driving this corner from the hood/roof camera instead. You should also be very careful about using too much of the outside of the track on the run down to turn 1, cutting the blind apex at turn 6 or running wide on the exit, and running wide on the exit of the final corner.

If you are unsure which corners these are, please see this circuit map (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Laguna_Seca.svg/2000px-Laguna_Seca.svg.png).

Improved times with track cuts

If you improve your time on the leaderboard, but exceed track limits on your new lap, then your time will be eliminated. If this happens, we do not roll back to your previous valid lap time. Only your fastest lap on the leaderboard at the end of the event will be considered for the final results.

Therefore, if during a lap you think that you might have cut a corner or run-wide even slightly, please back-off & abandon the lap, rather than set an invalid lap for the leaderboard. Otherwise you risk setting an invalid lap that you cannot replace with a faster, valid lap before the end of the event, meaning you miss out on possible championship points.

DISPUTES AND APPEALS

If the SMS staff decide that your ghost is marginal on track limits, we may contact you to ask for additional evidence. The only additional evidence that we will accept is chase camera footage of your actual lap, not of the ghost.

If you think that your lap is close to the limit of the track at any point, please save the replay. Then if we ask you for any additional evidence, you will be able to provide us with chase camera footage of your lap.

Failure to provide this footage can result in your time being left out of the official results.

We may also request this same video evidence if you claim after the event that a lap deemed to be invalid by SMS staff, was valid. The procedure is the same as the one above. Failure to provide this footage will result in your time being left out of the results.

Force Feedback

In the NVIDIA Challenger Series, you will use the default setup for the chosen car. This will override any car-specific, custom FFB settings you have. If you wish to adjust your FFB settings for this event, you will need to do so using the universal settings available in "Help & Options."

Assists

You should be able to run with assists on. In "Help & Options" if you turn the individual assists on, or set them to "Real", you should get these same settings in the event. Only the chosen car's real-world assists will work.

UPDATE 20/04/2016: Only the car's real-world assists will be available in the event. Please note that this GTE Corvette does not have ABS in real-life.

London Motor Show

Finally, please note that the official results for NCS Round 2 may be posted a little later than usual as AndyT and I are working at London Motor Show for most of next week.

That's all the boring stuff out of the way now. Good luck this weekend!

Figuur84
28-04-2016, 11:49
Lets hope things will go 'more smoothly' now :) thnx Joseph, and have fun and good luck to everyone!!!

cluck
28-04-2016, 12:04
Good luck everybody :yes:

AbeWoz
28-04-2016, 12:07
Good cluck everybody :yes:

FTFY :)

Kevin Leaune
28-04-2016, 12:26
Good Luck all !

inthebagbud
28-04-2016, 12:26
Good luck everybody :yes:

Yes good luck to all those racers (behind me) .........for those in front ................do you not have someting better to be doing this weekend................please :D

ibby
28-04-2016, 12:35
The Corkscrew luckily has very good cut track boundaries. Seems like the game won't allow cuts at all there.
Running a bit wide at turn 6 was pretty much the only part where i wasn't penalised on some test laps. :)

cluck
28-04-2016, 12:40
Another area to watch for is coming out of the final left-hander, as there's a lot of run off there and it's all too easy to drift wide.

But as Joseph has already pointed out, if you are in ANY doubt about your lap, pause it a second or two before crossing the finish line and watch your replay. If you think you've put all four wheels off the track, restart the session :).

I think I might actually hang my head in despair if we see the same number of top 40 times disallowed in this round :(.

Joseph Barron
28-04-2016, 13:05
To clarify Cluck's post above. You only need to put THREE wheels off the track for your lap to be eliminated from the results, not four. So please be careful.

ibby
28-04-2016, 13:09
To clarify Cluck's post above. You only need to put TWO wheels off the track for your lap to be eliminated from the results, not four. So please be careful.

You mean THREE, right ?

2 means that 2 are still on the track. oO

Joseph Barron
28-04-2016, 13:14
You mean THREE, right ?

2 means that 2 are still on the track. oO

Correct. I have edited my previous post to make sure it's clear.

Slash_VR
28-04-2016, 13:25
In exceptional circumstances where many drivers go off track, we may have fewer than 20 valid times in a Division at the end of the event. However, to avoid further confusion this season, we will no-longer consider times from outside the top 30 to fill out the remaining points positions if these circumstances occur. Only the top 30 event ghosts will be considered from now on.



Not liking this rule guys, let's say 30 drivers cheat/cut why is it fair that the driver in 31st doesn't win, it could be abused big time, for example what's stoping a driver setting up 30 stelth accounts and cutting each lap to prevent a rival team from scoring? There are many other examples that can be used.....

graveltrap
28-04-2016, 13:32
Laguna Seca and me don't get along! I do like the car and it drives well enough in default setup :)

Ready to be amazed at what the fast guys do here again :o

Joseph Barron
28-04-2016, 13:33
In exceptional circumstances where many drivers go off track, we may have fewer than 20 valid times in a Division at the end of the event. However, to avoid further confusion this season, we will no-longer consider times from outside the top 30 to fill out the remaining points positions if these circumstances occur. Only the top 30 event ghosts will be considered from now on.



Not liking this rule guys, let's say 30 drivers cheat/cut why is it fair that the driver in 31st doesn't win, it could be abused big time, for example what's stoping a driver setting up 30 stelth accounts and cutting each lap to prevent a rival team from scoring? There are many other examples that can be used.....

This is the normal procedure from last season. It is there to make absolutely certain that we only review ghosts which were definitely posted in the event. Once the event is over, additional ghosts outside the top 30 would perhaps need to be checked via Time Trial which can create its own set of problems. Ghosts might not match the NCS times, they could use edited setups/different assists etc.

The ghosts in the previous round which were taken from outside the final top 30 were reviewed during the event while the drivers were still in the top 30, so we knew they were OK. We're enforcing the rule above from now on for the sake of clarity and consistency in the results of each event, and to encourage more drivers to stick to track limits.

Issues like the one you mentioned would be very obvious in our adjudication process and would not be worth the risk by any teams/drivers. The punishment for anyone who did this would be SEVERE. We would be talking about multi-race bans at the very least.

SDL Rotax
28-04-2016, 13:49
The cutting penalties are rather well done in the game on laguna seca, that's good :)

Good luck everybody ! :D

Mezzanine
28-04-2016, 14:17
Hello Mr. Barron,

in my opinion you sould be prepared to see abusing your Top30 system. How would you make sure that a set dirty Top30 time has been set on purpose?
You should be very sure if you accuse players of doing that.

What I still don't understand is the 30 ghosts limit. Please point me to an explanation or explain your 30 ghosts limitation.
If I look on any leaderboard or the board of the championship there's a ghost for everone, not only the top 30.

232238

In your description you wrote again "You should be able to run with assists on. In "Help & Options" if you turn the individual assists on, or set them to "Real", you should get these same settings in the event."
As it's been written by many it is NOT possible to turn on assits you would like to use. There's no "should" it's a plain NO.

It's 2 weeks that your techdepartment is trying to clarify an issue which seen from here should be a very simple part of the game. That is frustrating. What's going on?

brgds

Joseph Barron
28-04-2016, 14:24
Mezzanine, once the assists issue has been clarified, we will update you. I don't have anything else new to say about this for now.

We only consider the top 30 ghosts because we need to be consistent across the three platforms, and the PS4 servers are limited to 30 ghosts per leaderboard. Normally, this is not an issue because we usually have enough clean laps to get a top 20. This was true last year too. However, there will be some exceptions to this from time-to-time in events where lots of drivers go off track. These will be the only occasions that you will notice the top 30 rule being enforced. The rest of time you will just see a normal top 20 in the results.

As I've said already in this thread, if anyone attempts to abuse the 30 ghosts rule, it will be VERY obvious during our results adjudication process. It will also result in long bans for the people involved, so it simply isn't worth the risk. This was never a problem last season and we don't expect it to be this year either.

Roel de Meulder
28-04-2016, 14:44
I think this is just too friendly still. The threshold to enter this series was very low, so the punishment of missing a single result is too little. I think people should be made more weary of their position on track in advance and be required to actively look and stop the lap in time.


To encourage careful driving. I'd suggest disqualification from the summer split when drivers make too repeated offences. (Think of 2 or 3 unclean top 30 results leading to disqualification)

Mezzanine
28-04-2016, 15:20
Hello Mr Barron,

thank you for your answer! As a player I hope for a fast clarification of the assists part.
I have been racing a ghost on the last weekend with real assists as I could not change that. It was very frustrating to hear afterwards that person's been using all 3 assists to make that time. It's not fair.
With the given situation now this will most likely happen gain this weekend :(

May I also ask you one more time to maybe change the braketemperature to warmed up when starting such an event? It would easy up the process by a good margin, I think a lot of players if not all would like that (am I wrong here?).
In my opinion it would be great if I could just lap a lap after another without caring about changing variables (like reset to start values when passing the finish line). Cold brakes would be ok to do that too, if there would be no tirewear, but differend to previous events this is turned on now (or is it only for me, it''s turned off in my gameoptions).

Good luck to you for this weekends event!

brgds

cluck
28-04-2016, 19:17
@Mezzanine - As myself and others have already reported, if you set Driver Aids to Yes in the main menu, you can then set the driver aids you want enabled. Those will then be enabled in the session you run. The only thing you cannot do is change the driver assists whilst in the session.

As for the brake temperature starting cold, that is a long-standing bug in time trial. I'm going to presume that re-enabling warm brakes at the start of time trial breaks some other part of the game, which is why it is still this way after many months, but that's just a guess.

Mezzanine
28-04-2016, 22:40
@Mezzanine - As myself and others have already reported, if you set Driver Aids to Yes in the main menu, you can then set the driver aids you want enabled. Those will then be enabled in the session you run. The only thing you cannot do is change the driver assists whilst in the session.

As for the brake temperature starting cold, that is a long-standing bug in time trial. I'm going to presume that re-enabling warm brakes at the start of time trial breaks some other part of the game, which is why it is still this way after many months, but that's just a guess.

Hey cluck,

I understand that to have assists in these events, I have to set them in the options menu. I'm fine with that.
But I cannot enable assists for the car which are not part of it's real assits. Example Bentley last weekend: I was not able to enable stability control.
Only ABS & TC, but others were able to use SC, too. Thats the confusion & my point.

If reenabling warm brakes cannot be done, maybe tirewear can be turned off, thats how it works in timetrial. So you would not have to restart and warm up brakes again. Would be great in my opinion.

inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 09:16
I haven't been on yet but have the event times changed as some guys are saying it wasn't available until 1 am UK time not 00.00, but website still says "Rounds are live between 00:00 UK and 23:59 on the dates stated"

Figuur84
29-04-2016, 09:47
Round 2 of the NVIDIA Challenger Series opens tonight at midnight UK time.

Assists

You should be able to run with assists on. In "Help & Options" if you turn the individual assists on, or set them to "Real", you should get these same settings in the event. Stability Control is perhaps the one which is still a little unclear. AndyT and I are discussing this with the dev team and may provide you with some more information in due course.


That's all the boring stuff out of the way now. Good luck this weekend!

I'm sorry Joseph, but to let you know, we still got no ABS working on ps4.

Gasman888
29-04-2016, 10:19
I'm sorry Joseph, but to let you know, we still got no ABS working on ps4.

I think it could be because this is a gte car and they don't run abs in real life, not sure though but I think I'm right.

DavidCore89
29-04-2016, 10:22
You get the assists that the car has in reality.

Bentley doesn't have SC.

Corvette doesn't have ABS or SC.

In the next round the V8SC has no assists.

I did a few laps last night, it's not a bad drive at all once the brakes have some heat in them.

Gasman888
29-04-2016, 10:32
You get the assists that the car has in reality.

Bentley doesn't have SC.

Corvette doesn't have ABS or SC.

In the next round the V8SC has no assists.

I did a few laps last night, it's not a bad drive at all once the brakes have some heat in them.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, I haven't tried the car yet but I'm sure it's fine, I don't normally use any assists on any car in the game.

inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 10:54
You get the assists that the car has in reality.

Bentley doesn't have SC.

Corvette doesn't have ABS or SC.

In the next round the V8SC has no assists.

I did a few laps last night, it's not a bad drive at all once the brakes have some heat in them.

Not sure how the event works but ingame I was told

REAL - gives you what the car has in real life
YES - you can select what you want whether it has it in real life or not
NO - as it says on the tin

TheDoctor46
29-04-2016, 11:12
Not sure how the event works but ingame I was told

REAL - gives you what the car has in real life
YES - you can select what you want whether it has it in real life or not
NO - as it says on the tin
Event settings overrule game settings. Thats also the reason why, even tho you might've deactivated it, there is tire wear :) As far as I understand it is you cant activate assists that the real car doesnt have but you can de/activate assists the real car has.

Thomas Sikora
29-04-2016, 11:25
Most of us have no chance agains the aliens.
Would be nice if everyone that participate and set a valid time in 80% of the events f.g. (8from10) get a lottery with the chance to get a "competition prize". Maybe only as a award to have a such great field here :)

graveltrap
29-04-2016, 12:11
I would say that when ABS is forced on in the option menu it carries over to this event, maybe expectations of what ABS will get you are set to high?!

You for sure can turn traction control off, this can be seen in the telemetry HUD, no flickering of the green throttle bar is present. :)

No idea on stability control, don't really know what it feels like and how it would change, if it is in play it's pretty subtle...

inthebagbud
29-04-2016, 12:19
Event settings overrule game settings. Thats also the reason why, even tho you might've deactivated it, there is tire wear :) As far as I understand it is you cant activate assists that the real car doesnt have but you can de/activate assists the real car has.

Noted but the confusion at present is that SMS can't actually confirm what assists are set to - REAL or ALL and that is what is confusing people , its a bit like the weather/time of day/tyre wear/ffb questions - everybody assumed it would be as a normal TT (which seems logical) but it isn't .

The issues are no great shakes to me , as I wont be at the top but I can see why some are questioning and becoming frustrated without clear answers or having flagged issues up weeks ago which would have avoided this

DavidCore89
29-04-2016, 12:21
When real assists are forced by the lobby or event, you can turn off any forced assist, but you cannot add assists that the car doesn't have.

So you can turn off TC (in the options) just like round 1.

I doubt ABS is working in the background, with that reasoning SC should be as well.

I think on PC the drivers can use whatever assists, but on console it is surely forced to realistic. Perhaps the first post regarding assists is referring to PC drivers.

TheDoctor46
29-04-2016, 12:47
I would say that when ABS is forced on in the option menu it carries over to this event, maybe expectations of what ABS will get you are set to high?!

You for sure can turn traction control off, this can be seen in the telemetry HUD, no flickering of the green throttle bar is present. :)

No idea on stability control, don't really know what it feels like and how it would change, if it is in play it's pretty subtle...
You can see which assists are enabled by having a look at the minimal motec from HUD which is only visible in outside cameras.

Figuur84
29-04-2016, 12:51
Well guys.... There is never been announced there was use of real assists afaik. If you read the forum you will notice that before the series started, they announced all assists would be possible to use so it would be an 'accessable event for everyone' or something like that. In my last post here I quoted Joseph and here he is clear. The assist should work, except stability, as the team is looking into that. Or did I miss something?

Joseph Barron
29-04-2016, 13:41
I've updated the first post to reflect the latest information about assists in Community Events. It seems some of your posts from today are correct.

Only the car's real assists will work. You need to have assists set to "Real" in "Help & Options" or turn each one on individually. This might be a little different on PC, but as this is a separate Division now, that's OK.

Stability Control probably won't work for the time being, but if we are able to tweak this for future events then I will let you know at a later date.

Figuur84
29-04-2016, 13:45
I've updated the first post to reflect the latest information about assists in Community Events. It seems some of your posts from today are correct.

Only the car's real assists will work. You need to have assists set to "Real" in "Help & Options" or turn each one on individually.

Stability Control probably won't work for the time being, but if we are able to tweak this for future events then I will let you know at a later date.

Well ABS does not work either Joseph. Tried everything alteady. In menu, in options, with assigned buttons and many more. I even erased my whole profile to start the game 'clean' as if I play it for the first time. I really does not work.

Joseph Barron
29-04-2016, 13:46
Well ABS does not work either Joseph. Tried everything alteady. In menu, in options, with assigned buttons and many more. I even erased my whole profile to start the game 'clean' as if I play it for the first time. I really does not work.

The 2015 GTE Corvette does not have ABS in real-life, which is why it does not work this event.

Figuur84
29-04-2016, 13:48
The 2015 GTE Corvette does not have ABS in real-life, which is why it does not work this event.

Well thanks. That makes things clear now. You do use 'real' settings for the events.

Please look for example on this (first) post:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44681-2016-Driver-Network-Pre-Season-Changes/page7

This made me assume that all assists would be available, because here is told that assists are available, but 'the fastest drivers will still be the ones with assists turned off or set to 'real.'

And further down again.

graveltrap
29-04-2016, 13:59
Must be a placebo effect then :o :) It's pretty difficult to lock up the wheels anyway, only the entry the corkscrew that I've noticed anything at all!

cluck
29-04-2016, 14:08
Well thanks. That makes things clear now. You do use 'real' settings for the events.

Please look for example on this (first) post:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44681-2016-Driver-Network-Pre-Season-Changes/page7

This made me assume that all assists would be available, because here is told that assists are available, but 'the fastest drivers will still be the ones with assists turned off or set to 'real.'

And further down again.Just for clarity, my like was for the last 'quote' because it's usually true.

I must confess, I must have encountered a placebo effect that meant when I enabled SC in the driver aids, I felt the car was more controlled. But I did notice, on the one occasion I looked at the mini-MOTEC hud in external view, that the SC symbol wasn't present and never lit up. Since I never race with an external view, I (wrongly) assumed there wasn't a symbol for it :o.

Figuur84
29-04-2016, 14:36
Just for clarity, my like was for the last 'quote' because it's usually true.

I must confess, I must have encountered a placebo effect that meant when I enabled SC in the driver aids, I felt the car was more controlled. But I did notice, on the one occasion I looked at the mini-MOTEC hud in external view, that the SC symbol wasn't present and never lit up. Since I never race with an external view, I (wrongly) assumed there wasn't a symbol for it :o.

Well, maybe that quote is true. We believe it depends on the car which assists you should use or not (after testing), ofcourse there could be a placebo effect in place, i don't know. My point is not that we do want all assists because we can't drive or so, but my point is that it has changed in regards of what was announced. I think you can't argue with the fact that the link I put in, and these posts there, do suggest all assists are available after the question from mangator.

So we've been testing and training a lot, also with some of the assists because we believed these where 'active'. For de LGCS we've build setups with some of the assists, which now turn out useless without those assists. Ofcourse this applies more to LGCS then to the NCS. It is the same with the 'conditions' in the events. They where announced as the same as in Time Trial (in these conditions we tested), but now they aren't (if you want a link I can give it to you :)).

I do understand some people don't mind all of this because some see it as a way to have a better chance to get higher up the rankings now, and that is ok. Everyone including me have their own opinions. And I am not complaining about opinions, but facts. Because there are a lot of opinions, these facts, rules and announcements are so important, so it is clear for everyone. It is the descision of every team and individual how much time they spend for practice and setups. I am telling this because we got a little frustrated after testing and making setups for so many hours. And the fact is, things turned out different then it was announced...

We also know we are not the fasted drivers atm. That is why we test a lot. I also know the conditions are the same for everyone. No arguement there. It is only really hard (especially for LGCS) to learn from things for ourselves now.

I don't want to be the 'whiner' here, but I do feel to express and explain this with my arguments....

I am at least satisfied with being clear that from now on only max 'real' assists are allowed, then that is cleared up now.

I promise you guys, I'm now done with my 'complaints' about this subject. Ive made my point, and we will continue with what SMS has decided now.

Good luck these events!

Mezzanine
29-04-2016, 15:18
But I cannot enable assists for the car which are not part of it's real assits. Example Bentley last weekend: I was not able to enable stability control.
Only ABS & TC, but others were able to use SC, too. Thats the confusion & my point.

I cannot see this this point cleared up!?
Sry 4 me jumping in like this, but I see ppl writing they are fine with the assits issue now, I am still not.
I still suspect some ppl are able to use ABS in the actual event as this has happened with SC last weekend.
So there's not the same chance for everyone. This is steam/pc.

PS.: To make clear as it may sound differend, it's now me whining I cannot use SC or ABS, the laps I've done with the Corvette so far have been driven without TC (so no assits) as it seems faster through a corner for me.
I just want to be sure this is a somehow fair challenge with same possibilities for each.

Photonenbert
29-04-2016, 15:43
Reading the opening post all should be clear now :) I wish everyone an awful lot of fun and good luck for round 2!

Doodle
29-04-2016, 16:03
Best of luck to everyone. :)

cluck
29-04-2016, 16:36
I cannot see this this point cleared up!?
Sry 4 me jumping in like this, but I see ppl writing they are fine with the assits issue now, I am still not.
I still suspect some ppl are able to use ABS in the actual event as this has happened with SC last weekend.
So there's not the same chance for everyone. This is steam/pc.

PS.: To make clear as it may sound differend, it's now me whining I cannot use SC or ABS, the laps I've done with the Corvette so far have been driven without TC (so no assits) as it seems faster through a corner for me.
I just want to be sure this is a somehow fair challenge with same possibilities for each.I think the confusion stems from the leaderboards showing the lap set with the driver aids that are either set manually in the driver aids options, or shows all aids as active if driver assists are set to 'Real', even if those assists weren't actually active.

If somebody could confirm for me whether Stability Control does or does not have a symbol in the external-cam motec display then :-

1. If SC does not have a symbol, it is 'possible' (though, I suspect, very unlikely) that SC was enabled for some people in the previous event
or
2. If SC does have a symbol then it was not enabled in the previous event but still shows up on leaderboard as being in use

I had SC set to 'Yes' in the menus but when I did some laps with it supposedly enabled and used an external camera, I never saw a symbol for it appear. From my perspective, therefore, even though it was set as 'Yes' in the options and shows as enabled on my time, it does not look like it was active in the event itself. As such, there should have been a level playing field for everybody, where you could choose to :-

Run with the real world assists
Run with no assists
Run with some of the real world assists but not with assists the real car lacks

This is not an authoritative answer on this, just my personal observations and thoughts as to how the confusion over, specifically, Stability Control may have come about.

Mezzanine
29-04-2016, 17:57
Hey cluck

ty for trying to help, I'm in.

My confusion has it's source on how this event has been announced by SMS first hand.
It was said all assits are available whether the car has them in real or not.
After responding this is differend on my side, Andy Tudor replied it is possible for him if menue options are all set to allow assists one by one. I tried and it did not work.

It then took two weeks until today Mr Barron posted it's not like said before and only real assists are available. I realy wonder why this took so long.
I'd say this confusion would have been avoided if someone had tested this beforehand.


On the other hand we had a talk on RSR teamspeak last weekend regarding that event and it was said that at least one was able to use all assists.
Cluck you know the ppl there, they are very dedicated to the game and know 'how to hold it right'. Thats the second point why I think there's something wrong with assists.

hope it just clears up.

Mezzanine
29-04-2016, 18:25
If somebody could confirm for me whether Stability Control does or does not have a symbol in the external-cam motec display then :-

1. If SC does not have a symbol, it is 'possible' (though, I suspect, very unlikely) that SC was enabled for some people in the previous event
or
2. If SC does have a symbol then it was not enabled in the previous event but still shows up on leaderboard as being in use

I had SC set to 'Yes' in the menus but when I did some laps with it supposedly enabled and used an external camera, I never saw a symbol for it appear. From my perspective, therefore, even though it was set as 'Yes' in the options and shows as enabled on my time, it does not look like it was active in the event itself. As such, there should have been a level playing field for everybody, where you could choose to :-

Run with the real world assists
Run with no assists
Run with some of the real world assists but not with assists the real car lacks

Have you maybe mixed up point 1 and 2?

The first two shots below show whats possible for me and what should be possible (hopefully) for everyone.
The third one shows how it would look like if 'it is possible'. I took that one in normal timetrial.
In the menu all assists were set to yes for the two showing assists enabled more or less.
All menuoptions set to No for the one showing no assists enabled.

More than this should not be possible in the current event:
232323232324

This should not be possible:
232325


I always had a look at this external minimotec to see whats enabled or not.
The website showing it differend than it's in game is known for long.

Tomjakes
29-04-2016, 18:57
Hi Joe,

Are we allowed to change the brake balance while on track?
Just thought I'd ask as I (and some others) see it as no longer using the default setup due to a change.

Cheers.

Joseph Barron
29-04-2016, 19:02
Hi Joe,

Are we allowed to change the brake balance while on track?
Just thought I'd ask as I (and some others) see it as no longer using the default setup due to a change.

Cheers.

Changing the brake balance on track is fine. It's a driving style tweak, rather than a setup change. It's allowed under parc fermé conditions in F1 and other series after core setups can no-longer be changed, so no issues here.

Cameron Brewster
29-04-2016, 19:09
Changing the brake balance on track is fine. It's a driving style tweak, rather than a setup change. It's allowed under parc fermé conditions in F1 and other series after core setups can no-longer be changed, so no issues here.
Would be useful to add that brake bias tweaks are allowed on the site somewhere as myself, and I'm sure others, didn't tweak brake bias in the previous round as we thought it was a setup tweak. :)

EMW Simmo
30-04-2016, 07:38
Would be useful to add that brake bias tweaks are allowed on the site somewhere as myself, and I'm sure others, didn't tweak brake bias in the previous round as we thought it was a setup tweak. :)

To be honest, the championship is another let down, are we suprised?
Brake bias, anti-roll bars, assists, all can be mapped or changed, ghosts can be manipulated and PS4 is cleary 0.5 faster minimum than XBONE but both are in the same catergory, n its a valid argument, because i have access to both and its as clear as a summers day.
And the physics are different, the curbs are v forgiving on PS4, alot less twitchy and overall more grip n stability.
Yes its the same game no doubt, but they perform v differently.
PS4 has better graphics, faster smooth framerate, and is v easy to drive flatout with no issues.
XBONE twitchy as hell, curbs that spin u out, slidey physics and a framerate from the 90s lol.
Im not blaming SMS its obvious PS4 is a better console, i just want a fair representation of whats going on.
And yes i play Xbox because it has a better community where PS4 feels dead.
Everyear we are told things that never materialise into reality, why?

justme
30-04-2016, 08:08
I can confirm that PS4 is faster. I have played on both platforms and on XB1 car is much twitchy and difference is somewhere 0.2-0.5s. But I doubt that we will see any answers from SMS because they simply doesn't care about things like these like we saw last season. They found differences between PC and consoles but they never admitted it so why should we believe that XB1 and PS4 are the same.

PS. I'm playing on PS4 and I like that we are faster but doesn't seem to be fair to everyone.

Mbondracing
30-04-2016, 08:12
Just to clarify the event will override my jack spade tweaker files? Because the car felt pretty good if that's default ffb. Not a car I've driven much of so don't really have any comparison.

graveltrap
30-04-2016, 09:01
PS4 random leaderboard report...

1st is a 1:21.917
10th is 1:22.171
20th is 1:22.366
30th is 1:22.615
50th is 1:22.986
100th is 1:23.675

747 players on the board, competition is fierce!

It would be interesting to see how he Xbox is looking ;)

theoriginalR6kid
30-04-2016, 09:21
To be honest, the championship is another let down, are we suprised?
Brake bias, anti-roll bars, assists, all can be mapped or changed, ghosts can be manipulated and PS4 is cleary 0.5 faster minimum than XBONE but both are in the same catergory, n its a valid argument, because i have access to both and its as clear as a summers day.
And the physics are different, the curbs are v forgiving on PS4, alot less twitchy and overall more grip n stability.
Yes its the same game no doubt, but they perform v differently.
PS4 has better graphics, faster smooth framerate, and is v easy to drive flatout with no issues.
XBONE twitchy as hell, curbs that spin u out, slidey physics and a framerate from the 90s lol.
Im not blaming SMS its obvious PS4 is a better console, i just want a fair representation of whats going on.
And yes i play Xbox because it has a better community where PS4 feels dead.
Everyear we are told things that never materialise into reality, why?

This was highlighted at monza when you could see how much later they could brake. I would be jumping ship to the ps4 if I was one of the top xbox guys.

ralphy0502
30-04-2016, 10:36
This was highlighted at monza when you could see how much later they could brake. I would be jumping ship to the ps4 if I was one of the top xbox guys.

Dont forget about engine braking. Maybe the ps4 guys used engine braking you didnt... you can clearly see who uses engine braking because theres about .1 gained under heavy braking.

Also, the SMS R champion was on xbox.

theoriginalR6kid
30-04-2016, 13:37
Dont forget about engine braking. Maybe the ps4 guys used engine braking you didnt... you can clearly see who uses engine braking because theres about .1 gained under heavy braking.

Also, the SMS R champion was on xbox.

I was using engine braking,was banging down the gears quick as could. I experimented with brake balance...I couldn't get nowhere near the brake points that you can with the ps4. Other Xbox users I know said the same once they saw the footage of the ps4 monza lap. Maybe we have an advantage in other area's I don't know,I've not tried the ps4?( Though EMW Simmo doesn't seem to think so) so I can only comment on what I could actually see in regards to brake points. Up until I observed that,I didn't actually believe the rumours about there being a difference between the 2 platforms :)

Androphonomania
30-04-2016, 17:29
Regarding the difference between platforms. There will be no further comments. Besides: "the numbers are equal" That's my experience.

Bennyboy1974
30-04-2016, 18:45
PS4 random leaderboard report...

1st is a 1:21.917
10th is 1:22.171
20th is 1:22.366
30th is 1:22.615
50th is 1:22.986
100th is 1:23.675

747 players on the board, competition is fierce!

It would be interesting to see how he Xbox is looking ;)

Really enjoying having a go at this. Have a thrustmaster T300RS set up and am currently 201st on the leaderboard with a 1:24:6. Maybe its because i am just no good, but any tips on how to get some quicker times? Do the top drivers use assists? Is there a set up that helps out? I thought i had nailed all the braking points but just cant find any more time. Cheers in advance

AbeWoz
30-04-2016, 19:02
Really enjoying having a go at this. Have a thrustmaster T300RS set up and am currently 201st on the leaderboard with a 1:24:6. Maybe its because i am just no good, but any tips on how to get some quicker times? Do the top drivers use assists? Is there a set up that helps out? I thought i had nailed all the braking points but just cant find any more time. Cheers in advance

well this is a default setup competition so everyone is running the same setup as you.

Bennyboy1974
30-04-2016, 20:04
Cheers, more practice needed by me then

CQR Cobblepop
30-04-2016, 21:05
If the PS4 does indeed have an advantage, then that's really poor for the series. However, what irks me more about the multi-platform format is the fact I don't know where I am in the combined standings at any given time.

Joseph Barron
30-04-2016, 23:13
If the PS4 does indeed have an advantage, then that's really poor for the series. However, what irks me more about the multi-platform format is the fact I don't know where I am in the combined standings at any given time.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread & others: The 2015 Driver Network Championship was won by an Xbox One driver. The PS4 and Xbox One physics/handling code has remained equal since then. AndyT and I have explained this before. The physics/handling code is the same on both console platforms.

There are some minor differences between the two consoles and PC, which is why we have separate Divisions for PC and Console.

From now on, I will include a sentence about this in the driver briefings for each round, to keep this clear.

theoriginalR6kid
30-04-2016, 23:37
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread & others: The 2015 Driver Network Championship was won by an Xbox One driver. The PS4 and Xbox One physics/handling code has remained equal since then. AndyT and I have explained this before. The physics/handling code is the same on both console platforms.

There are some minor differences between the two consoles and PC, which is why we have separate Divisions for PC and Console.

From now on, I will include a sentence about this in the driver briefings for each round, to keep this clear.

Regardless what you say about the code Joseph ,that doesn't explain why when using the first straight at monza as an example,I and the fastest racers had to brake a fraction before the 150 board(I know the fastest guys were doing the same from watching their ghost laps!) and the ps4 and pc competitor's were able to brake just before the 100 marker. Not happy your just disregarding what's being pointed out.

Gasman888
30-04-2016, 23:53
Could it be the same reason Nico Rosberg brakes earlier than Lewis Hamilton at most hard stopping corners??? Just putting it out there, a possibility that some people might just be able to brake later than others due to personal driving styles.

Magictap
30-04-2016, 23:54
Hey Joseph, great job on here btw. I think this bit was Cobs point:


However, what irks me more about the multi-platform format is the fact I don't know where I am in the combined standings at any given time.

Anyone know a way or place to check combined console standings?

peace ;O)

SpeedFreakDTM
01-05-2016, 00:04
Round 2 - NO ABS, NO SC = No entry possible.

Why can't I enter these events with the assists I'm used to. This just sucks SMS!

I dont care that the car doesn't have ABS in real life. Its a game, its supposed to be fun, it supposed to be accessible to drivers of all skill levels. But the assists not working means its not accessible to all skill levels. It also doesn't have an engine that has the economy do to multiple laps on 5L of fuel. So why do we have to use real world assists ?

SMS its so damn simple, just allow people to use whatever assist they want. The slow people will still be slow, and the fast people can still be fast with or without them, just allow us to make the choice. More people competing makes for a better competition doesn't it?

Assists are not going to make me the number 1 driver, but they are going to allow me to try, and keep trying, and most importantly ENJOY it.

theoriginalR6kid
01-05-2016, 00:19
Could it be the same reason Nico Rosberg brakes earlier than Lewis Hamilton at most hard stopping corners??? Just putting it out there, a possibility that some people might just be able to brake later than others due to personal driving styles.

Where did your driving style allow you to brake at the first chicane at monza???? Your on a ps4 mate and I guarantee if you were trying then you would of been braking a fraction before the 100 marker! This isn't about driving styles,I've seen and experienced something that is objective and it's been dismissed by the powers that be and it's got my blood boiling!! This isn't about me finding excuses,I'm not the fastest by a long shot,any ps4 driver that got into the 1.'45's at monza has some serious skills. This is about me being dismissed!

Androphonomania
01-05-2016, 00:22
Driving without ABS is fun. If you dont like dont play it. Driving with real assists is the way to go. You have diversity.
I like events where everything is equal. You can drive in Time Trial mode if you want to compete with all assists in every car. Which in my opinion totally destroys the character of a car.

ibby
01-05-2016, 01:24
Where did your driving style allow you to brake at the first chicane at monza???? Your on a ps4 mate and I guarantee if you were trying then you would of been braking a fraction before the 100 marker! This isn't about driving styles,I've seen and experienced something that is objective and it's been dismissed by the powers that be and it's got my blood boiling!! This isn't about me finding excuses,I'm not the fastest by a long shot,any ps4 driver that got into the 1.'45's at monza has some serious skills. This is about me being dismissed!

Here's a hint: You're not giving anywhere near enough evidence for even considering investigating.
What were your brake temperatures at T1. In events it starts with 0° so you need to heat them up before the start of the 2nd ! lap or you'll have no chance of braking where the top guys braked.
Also have you seen laps from the top 3 XBOX guys and looked where they braked at ?
Without comparison vids of fast guys with telemetry on there isn't really anything to look at for the devs.

Androphonomania
01-05-2016, 07:39
Even with comparisons, telemetry and footage no dev will investigate anything. :rolleyes:

DavidCore89
01-05-2016, 09:36
Where did your driving style allow you to brake at the first chicane at monza???? Your on a ps4 mate and I guarantee if you were trying then you would of been braking a fraction before the 100 marker! This isn't about driving styles,I've seen and experienced something that is objective and it's been dismissed by the powers that be and it's got my blood boiling!! This isn't about me finding excuses,I'm not the fastest by a long shot,any ps4 driver that got into the 1.'45's at monza has some serious skills. This is about me being dismissed!

Not true.

I'm on PS4 and wasn't braking at the 100 board, not because my hardware isn't upto standard, but simply because my driving is not as good as the top drivers and I wasn't aggressive enough with the down-shifts.

So, of course it's about driving styles, the best driver will win regardless of what console he or she is on.

CQR Cobblepop
01-05-2016, 09:48
Hey Joseph, great job on here btw. I think this bit was Cobs point:

Anyone know a way or place to check combined console standings?

peace ;O)

Can I return to this point. Does anyone know how/where an xbox player can view PS4 laptimes and vice versa? Or even better, a combined leaderboard?

inthebagbud
01-05-2016, 10:11
Can I return to this point. Does anyone know how/where an xbox player can view PS4 laptimes and vice versa? Or even better, a combined leaderboard?

you cant with the game, the only way would be for everybody to use vrhud app which uploads to a website then you can view - but would need all drivers to use it to be meaningful

Otherworld
01-05-2016, 14:40
Round 2 - NO ABS, NO SC = No entry possible.

Why can't I enter these events with the assists I'm used to. This just sucks SMS!

I dont care that the car doesn't have ABS in real life. Its a game, its supposed to be fun, it supposed to be accessible to drivers of all skill levels. But the assists not working means its not accessible to all skill levels. It also doesn't have an engine that has the economy do to multiple laps on 5L of fuel. So why do we have to use real world assists ?

SMS its so damn simple, just allow people to use whatever assist they want. The slow people will still be slow, and the fast people can still be fast with or without them, just allow us to make the choice. More people competing makes for a better competition doesn't it?

Assists are not going to make me the number 1 driver, but they are going to allow me to try, and keep trying, and most importantly ENJOY it.

Competitions are not made for fun, they're made for competition. If you want to drive with all assists, you can, just don't enter the competition.

Roel de Meulder
01-05-2016, 20:43
Competitions are not made for fun, they're made for competition. If you want to drive with all assists, you can, just don't enter the competition.

I don't want to live in your other world, it seems like a sad place... :(

Competitions are made for the fun of competition, which can vary from different ranges of levels. The fact that I wouldn't need ABS or TC myself and couldn't increase my lap-times by using driving aids because of that means that it would be unfair people can get closer to me using these driving aids. Resulting in a much closer competition and a very exciting reason to focus on other aspects to improve my driving.

noiD
01-05-2016, 23:52
This is still open right?

anybody got an idea why i cant enter.. just looks like this.

Cant press anything. Sry im new!

http://i68.tinypic.com/qqv6lv.png

Joseph Barron
02-05-2016, 00:01
Hi noiD. You might be missing some add-on content. This event requires the US Race Car Pack.

noiD
02-05-2016, 00:10
Thank you for the quick answer. You are right. Amazing support. GJ!

CQR Cobblepop
02-05-2016, 01:24
Would somebody be kind enough to post a pic of the PS4 top ten?

Magictap
02-05-2016, 08:36
Hey Cob, can you post a pic of the XB1 top ten?

satco1066
02-05-2016, 10:15
Round 2 - NO ABS, NO SC = No entry possible.

Why can't I enter these events with the assists I'm used to. This just sucks SMS!

I dont care that the car doesn't have ABS in real life. Its a game, its supposed to be fun, it supposed to be accessible to drivers of all skill levels. But the assists not working means its not accessible to all skill levels. It also doesn't have an engine that has the economy do to multiple laps on 5L of fuel. So why do we have to use real world assists ?

SMS its so damn simple, just allow people to use whatever assist they want. The slow people will still be slow, and the fast people can still be fast with or without them, just allow us to make the choice. More people competing makes for a better competition doesn't it?

Assists are not going to make me the number 1 driver, but they are going to allow me to try, and keep trying, and most importantly ENJOY it.

Its about to compete with the same weapons.
The weapon is defined.
If you want to compete with a gun against people with a bow, you're in the wrong competition.

AbeWoz
02-05-2016, 10:54
You should also work on running the car, well any car, with no SC. It really slows it down. And any stability problems can be tuned out with adjustments to differential locks.

Otherworld
02-05-2016, 11:37
I don't want to live in your other world, it seems like a sad place... :(

Competitions are made for the fun of competition, which can vary from different ranges of levels. The fact that I wouldn't need ABS or TC myself and couldn't increase my lap-times by using driving aids because of that means that it would be unfair people can get closer to me using these driving aids. Resulting in a much closer competition and a very exciting reason to focus on other aspects to improve my driving.
Hey, I didn't say that you couldn't have fun in a competition. Having fun in a competition is actually why many people enter competitions. However, it's pretty clear to me that a competition must be made first and foremost with the competition itself in mind (which leads to equal tools for everyone, and the unlawfulness of unfair advantages), not depending on the fun that some competitors could find. As satco very well said, while you could probably find it very fun to use a gun in a bow competition, the competition should not allow that to happen.

CQR Cobblepop
02-05-2016, 13:01
Hey Cob, can you post a pic of the XB1 top ten?

Unfortunately not, I'm out all day and then working tonight. I'll definitely be looking to do this in future rounds, maybe a couple of pics with the top 20-30 laptimes seeing as these are the approximate points paying positions.

cmch15
02-05-2016, 15:45
It's a shame to be "excluded" from an event again because I only get a couple of hours a week to play and haven't been able to master the exploits/settings.

I thought this championship would be fun with a bit of a purpose, but having watched the Monza videos floating around with ridiculous downshifting that would just make the car swap ends, makes it a farce imo.

beetes_juice
02-05-2016, 18:35
After reading the thread I think the championship needs a revision. Lap times don't matter, as long as you participate, your a winner!

232516

Giovtec
02-05-2016, 21:21
Is there going to be some kind of fixing on the lap times not matching with the ghost?

Unfortunately i have a slower ghost the day before yesterday, then i manage to do two more fast times since then is a bit hard to improve but it is possible, but when i checked the ghost, it was even 1.5 secnds off my leader board time.

Which just make me lost interest, i know i am not an alien but sometimes i can do good laps, unfortunately will take time, but if the ghost is not doing same laps as my leaderboard then it becomes a downer.

ibby
02-05-2016, 21:50
Bad Cluck. Bad Cluck. ;)
I don't have time to improve again.

Giovtec: Yeah would be nice to find some kind of logic behind the wrong ghosts uploads. If it's really just a sometimes slow server then there's nothing we can do to prevent it i guess.

In case my ghost doesn't fit my time i've got video to prove it. I'll spare myself the upload time until needed for a now just top11 lap. Grr.

cluck
02-05-2016, 21:58
Is there going to be some kind of fixing on the lap times not matching with the ghost?

Unfortunately i have a slower ghost the day before yesterday, then i manage to do two more fast times since then is a bit hard to improve but it is possible, but when i checked the ghost, it was even 1.5 secnds off my leader board time.

Which just make me lost interest, i know i am not an alien but sometimes i can do good laps, unfortunately will take time, but if the ghost is not doing same laps as my leaderboard then it becomes a downer.I lost my place (and points) in the last round thanks to a bad ghost. For me, I lost connection to Steam during my session but not so badly that it returned to main menu. As long as you're aware of it, you just need to check and try again if the ghost is bad. Believe me, I know how frustrating it is.


Bad Cluck. Bad Cluck. ;)
I don't have time to improve again.

Giovtec: Yeah would be nice to find some kind of logic behind the wrong ghosts uploads. If it's really just a sometimes slow server then there's nothing we can do to prevent it i guess.

In case my ghost doesn't fit my time i've got video to prove it. I'll spare myself the upload time until needed for a now just top11 lap. Grr.Sorry :o. Be thankful I didn't hook the lap up properly, I would have been a little more than 0.2s faster still. Been a VERY frustrating day trying to hook the lap up.

F1Masa
03-05-2016, 00:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47h0axQe_0Y&feature=youtu.be

SDL Rotax
03-05-2016, 00:04
Amazing Lap' Masa ! :)

Here's my lap :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7YFTi_f9I&feature=youtu.be

Kevin Leaune
03-05-2016, 00:08
YEAAAH ! CONGRATS ALL !

PC

TOP 1 & TOP 3

CONSOLE

TOP 1 - TOP 2 - TOP 4

CQR Cobblepop
03-05-2016, 00:33
Ugh... it's frustrating not being able to see where I've finished due to the split platform format.

I don't mean to be a douche but if you're going to pool the console's together in competition, isn't it reasonable to have some way of viewing a combined leaderboard whilst each round is active?

Ayrton89
03-05-2016, 02:03
Hi,

I validated my time, here is my ghost, in Turn 6, this is valid or not?

Thanks.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/3047321314807010209673050093268469747166o.jpg

_MB_
03-05-2016, 04:51
I hope sms have the tools to look into these replays of the final corner before the lap starts as we have heard rumours that you can go off to the right without a penalty to give yourself a better line and get on the gas earlier,which will gain you some time on the 1st straight. :(

I spent quite a lot of time over the last couple of days trying to get the last corner right as i was losing time down the straight compared to some of the ghosts i was using but no matter how i took the final corner i couldn't match the other players ghost down the 1st straight.I even started to believe it was my pedals and recalibrated them,i also played around with throttle sensitivity and even removed my t3pa pro pedals to try the standard t300 stock pedals and still couldn't match the ghost down the straight.
I did in fact try this so called rumour last night by going off track to the right before the final corner and to my surprise i could now match the speed of the ghost down the straight!!!(or maybe i was just taking the final corner badly all along?)

BTW i set my fastest time not using that method and not directly accusing anyone of doing so,i just hope sms have the tools to check these laps as i would be disappointed to hear people were actually doing that.
This was my fasted lap including the final corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auibCMu3zHo&feature=youtu.be


ps.would be good to see those who do post their videos show how they took the final corner before they started the hot lap and big respect to those who have posted genuine times

CQR Cobblepop
03-05-2016, 07:08
Do you mean to say that people were deliberately going off track before the last corner or running wide coming out of the last corner?

I had exactly the same issue as yourself where I could never get to the first corner without the rival ghost being at least a full car length ahead. I never heard this rumour so spent most of my time thinking I was shifting gear incorrectly... I even tried automatic transmission because I was so confounded!

I suppose strictly speaking it isn't against the regulations to go off track to gain an advantage before starting a flying lap, but there's a strong case to say it's really poor sportsmanship.

...if indeed some people were doing this, I wonder how much time it was worth? 1-2 tenths maybe?

P.S. Unless there's some method I'm unaware of, I don't see how this can be policed because all that can be viewed is the actual flying lap starting at the line.

cluck
03-05-2016, 07:32
re. going off-track before starting the flying lap, you have barely any room between off-track and invalidating the lap, inches at most. As for whether or not it's fair play, it doesn't matter, all that matters is that the ghost has at least 2 wheels on the track for the entirety of the actual lap :) . Before you ask, no I didn't do this but if somebody managed to gain a few hundredths, fair play to them :).

I watched all of the top-10 PC ghosts last night and 4 of them are dangerously close to DQ if not DQ outright for having 1 wheel stray off the track limits

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 07:55
@ Cluck, unfortunately Cluck, it wasn't just a matter of inches, on ps4 I've seen some of the top guys( not gonna name here) going off before the last corner right out to the barrier on the far right, straight lining and accelerating all the way through the final corner and it wouldn't invalidate the lap on ps4. As far as I'm concerned that's cheating and I'm pretty sure the FIA would agree but I don't make or enforce the rules here so we will see what SMS think about it.
P.s I didn't do this on my lap.

cluck
03-05-2016, 08:08
@ Cluck, unfortunately Cluck, it wasn't just a matter of inches, on ps4 I've seen some of the top guys( not gonna name here) going off before the last corner right out to the barrier on the far right, straight lining and accelerating all the way through the final corner and it wouldn't invalidate the lap on ps4. As far as I'm concerned that's cheating and I'm pretty sure the FIA would agree but I don't make or enforce the rules here so we will see what SMS think about it.
P.s I didn't do this on my lap.Yeah, just been PM'd a link to a video showing just that. That's pretty low it must be said and I wouldn't have thought to try it myself :o.

It's obviously up to SMS but the rules do only apply to the lap itself not what comes before it.

Can you see the individual split times on the PS4? I just wonder what the S1 times were for the top 10 on there. On PC, for instance, I was able to do a 38.30x time for S1, taking a normal line through the final corner. With F1-Masa only a tenth quicker, I am just curious as to whether the PS4 times were significantly quicker than that :).

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 08:24
I did try it to see, it was 1-2tenths quicker, which doesn't sound much but when you consider I'm only 2.4tenths off the top time on ps4 I'm hoping that SMS look at this and, as they did in the previous round, compare it to a real world situation and not make me regret sticking to the track for my lap, we'll have to wait and see.
You can tell who has done this because of the extra speed across the start line.

cluck
03-05-2016, 08:35
1-2 tenths is massive, yes. On the PC top ten, for example, less than 0.2s separates 4th from 10th. Only 2 of the top 11 times dip below 28.3s, which is why I was interested in the S1-split times on the PS4 :).

TheDoctor46
03-05-2016, 09:13
The dedication some people put in to find the last tenth via exploits is really mindboggling. =|

cluck
03-05-2016, 09:18
The dedication some people put in to find the last tenth via exploits is really mindboggling. =|In a way, they deserve to win then ;).

(I'm half-joking)

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 09:58
If you cut the last corner slightly or go wide on exit you can get on the power a fraction earlier and carry more speed across the line but the game disallows that lap AND the next lap because of the advantage gained, so I don't see how this should be different, it directly effects your next lap time so imo shouldn't be allowed, but I agree, it it surprising the lengths people will go to, to get an advantage.

cluck
03-05-2016, 10:07
If you cut the last corner slightly or go wide on exit you can get on the power a fraction earlier and carry more speed across the line but the game disallows that lap AND the next lap because of the advantage gained, so I don't see how this should be different, it directly effects your next lap time so imo shouldn't be allowed, but I agree, it it surprising the lengths people will go to, to get an advantage.To DQ anybody though, it still needs to be proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that those times were achieved by using this potential exploit. On top of that, the decision has to rest with SMS. The rules don't mention anything about what happens before you cross the S/F line to start your timed lap and, sadly, that potentially makes it very difficult to justify the disqualification of those times.

I have no vested interest here, at least on PS4, as I am neither taking part in that division and nor is anybody that I know :). I'm trying to take a neutral stance and looking at it from both sides. On the 'player' side, I agree that it is not within the spirit of the rules but on the 'rules' side, they have done nothing wrong.

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 10:21
The rules state that you must "remain between the White lines at all times" but I do see that it's down to how SMS want to interpret it and how they want things to work going forward, but I do think it's an exploit/cheat to gain an advantage that most would have been unaware of or unwilling to do. Could you imagine seeing an F1 driver going wide in the final corner, completely off track to get a run on his qually lap, I'm pretty sure it would cause outrage and would be disallowed, points on his licence etc etc.

georges
03-05-2016, 10:32
Hi,

I validated my time, here is my ghost, in Turn 6, this is valid or not?

Thanks.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/3047321314807010209673050093268469747166o.jpg


Logically it is not valid, 3 wheel are except lines a white

georges
03-05-2016, 10:37
Logically it is not valid, 3 wheel are except lines a white

Organizer can you svp answer has this question, thank you very much.

cluck
03-05-2016, 10:40
The rules state that you must "remain between the White lines at all times" but I do see that it's down to how SMS want to interpret it and how they want things to work going forward, but I do think it's an exploit/cheat to gain an advantage that most would have been unaware of or unwilling to do. Could you imagine seeing an F1 driver going wide in the final corner, completely off track to get a run on his qually lap, I'm pretty sure it would cause outrage and would be disallowed, points on his licence etc etc.Like I said, provided there is enough proof that people have used this as a possible exploit then my personal position - as a competitor in these championships, albeit not on PS4 - is that I would like to see those times DQ'd.

When I get home tonight I'll try it on PC and see if the same thing can be exploited.

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 12:17
You can easily tell if someone has done this by looking at the speed/gear/revs across the start line. Just to be clear, you could even look at the start of someone's lap and compare it to the end of that same lap, it's pretty clear who has done it because they are clearly slower across the line at the end of their lap than they were at the start of it.

cluck
03-05-2016, 12:33
There is an argument, I guess, for this rule to be applied to this sort of 'exploit'


Any times deemed ineligible due to suspicious or fraudulent circumstances will be disqualified from the current round

Obviously this sort of thing doesn't fall into 'fraudulent' but 'suspicious'? Maybe.

Now it's been raised, the only thing we can do is sit patiently and wait for SMS to comment and announce the results :).

Joseph Barron
03-05-2016, 13:12
Hi everyone. We are aware of what is going on regarding a potential exploit, and we may take action to eliminate drivers from the results, but only in cases where sufficient video evidence has come to light.

As mentioned in the driver briefing, the official results for this NCS Round may take a little longer than usual to publish because AndyT and I are busy with London Motor Show as well.

ralphy0502
03-05-2016, 13:24
I think this is something that will be hard to prove, the best thing to do is either cancel the round or re-run it.

I only use ghosts to make sure i'm using the right lines, but the ghosts I did use had no visible advantage over me going down the main straight, I was the exact same speed. Unless the advantage is so small you can't see it...?
I didn't bother saving my replay because I knew I could go much faster, but then never got the chance (yes thats partly my own fault), but I don't want to be disqualified when I ran the same speed as cheaters legitimately, this will be the same story for others to no doubt.

cluck
03-05-2016, 13:33
I think this is something that will be hard to prove, the best thing to do is either cancel the round or re-run it.

I only use ghosts to make sure i'm using the right lines, but the ghosts I did use had no visible advantage over me going down the main straight, I was the exact same speed. Unless the advantage is so small you can't see it...?
I didn't bother saving my replay because I knew I could go much faster, but then never got the chance (yes thats partly my own fault), but I don't want to be disqualified when I ran the same speed as cheaters legitimately, this will be the same story for others to no doubt.That's why SMS have to be 100% certain that somebody might have used this potential exploit before excluding them from this round.

All it takes is a slightly better line, slightly better throttle control out of that final corner and you can make up some speed quite nicely.

For me, I never managed to have the front of my car hit the front edge of the S/F straight gantry's shadow at more than 123mph (whatever that translates to in km/h) no matter what I tried as a line through the final corner - that pretty much (ie, to within inches) matched the ghost of the #1 time yesterday morning (I didn't manage that for my fastest overall lap though :( ). If the same exploit is possible on PC then I will check tonight what speed I can hit that at.


Also, thanks for the update Joe. Hope preparation for the show is going to plan :).

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 14:11
It's simple, people's speed across the start line at the start and finish of the lap should be very,very close. If there's a 10-20mph/kph difference, I.e start faster, then you know who cheated. Just not sure if SMS can see that data or not now.

Ramiboo
03-05-2016, 14:26
232564

RC Bizkiller248
03-05-2016, 15:02
Just a little video for the staff. Just so done to see that is possible : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7xoacf2tvA&feature=gp-n-y&google_comment_id=z12sjxr5hu3pddgal04chbxrhrragj2abao

cluck
03-05-2016, 15:03
Before I start, I want to make it absolutely clear that :-

a) I am not accusing either F1-Masa or _MB_ of using this exploit. Their videos are on the previous page and stand as good reference points.
b) I am just an interested party in the sense that I am a fellow competitor in the PC division of this competition. I have as much desire as other racers to root out any examples of unsportsmanship.
c) I am not commenting in any official capacity here as I have none.

If you watch F1-Masa's start, he hits the front of the shadow under the gantry and 198kmh (123mph), whilst _MB_ hits it at 121mph. F1-Masa goes on to reach 230kmh (~143mph) whilst _MB_ reaches just over 141mph as they pass the same point just before needing to brake for T1. The ghost in _MB_'s replay is ahead of him but it is not clear just how far ahead.

What would be interesting to compare is _MB_'s ghost against some of the suspected 'exploit' ones. Any significant lead over his ghost should, IMHO, be flagged up for investigation.

cluck
03-05-2016, 15:11
Just a little video for the staff. Just so done to see that is possible : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7xoacf2tvA&feature=gp-n-y&google_comment_id=z12sjxr5hu3pddgal04chbxrhrragj2abao

That's interesting because :-

a) you are actually slower at the front of the gantry shadow than F1-Masa by 2kmh (and certainly no quicker than the speed I was getting, taking a legitimate line)
and
b) you are slower at the same point where F1-Masa reaches 230kmh (you are 3-4kmh slower here)

If that is the absolute best that can be achieved from this 'exploit' then it clearly isn't working as an exploit :).

Ramiboo
03-05-2016, 15:16
Just a little video for the staff. Just so done to see that is possible : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7xoacf2tvA&feature=gp-n-y&google_comment_id=z12sjxr5hu3pddgal04chbxrhrragj2abao

I see the problem here and Cluck, I'm disappointed you didn't spot it. RC, you are using Traction Control. You will get a worse exit with TC than using your foot to modulate the throttle. Sorry....

Can someone post what is possible by starting the lap from the sand plz without TC. I'm nothing to do with SDL, but I'm not happy with them getting a finger pointing at them in that video, also pretty un-sportsman like!

_MB_
03-05-2016, 15:16
I think this is something that will be hard to prove, the best thing to do is either cancel the round or re-run it.

I only use ghosts to make sure i'm using the right lines, but the ghosts I did use had no visible advantage over me going down the main straight, I was the exact same speed. Unless the advantage is so small you can't see it...?
I didn't bother saving my replay because I knew I could go much faster, but then never got the chance (yes thats partly my own fault), but I don't want to be disqualified when I ran the same speed as cheaters legitimately, this will be the same story for others to no doubt.

Some guys in our team didn't notice until it was pointed out,watching a replay it became more apparent for them.The ghost while driving only starts to appear once it's about a car length ahead,it is far more noticeable if you have players names enabled as that is not ghosted out it seems.They are not gaining seconds it is only small,up to a tenth or 2 but when you have so many up there scoring points with less than a tenth between them then that advantage is unfair.
Yes corner exit is key and i spent alot of time trying to master this and not once or any other team member could match them(between us we must of done a good couple hundred laps).No matter how you exit that final corner you would not be able to carry the same amount of speed as they do down the straight

Thanks sms for the reply.

cluck
03-05-2016, 15:19
I see the problem here and Cluck, I'm disappointed you didn't spot it. RC, you are using Traction Control. You will get a worse exit with TC than using your foot to modulate the throttle. Sorry....

Can someone post what is possible by starting the lap from the sand plz....I spotted it and this is why I commented

If that is the absolute best that can be achieved from this 'exploit' then it clearly isn't working as an exploit :). :).

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 15:21
[QUOTE=Ramiboo;1273244]I see the problem here and Cluck, I'm disappointed you didn't spot it. RC, you are using Traction Control. You will get a worse exit with TC than using your foot to modulate the throttle. Sorry....

Can someone post what is possible by starting the lap from the sand plz....[/QUOTE

I also think ,from what I've seen, people weren't stopping either so getting a small run up aswell compared to rc's effort

_MB_
03-05-2016, 15:31
Unfortunately those on ps4 are not able to reproduce this now as we have shared timetrial boards with the top times ghost being in the mclaren longtail otherwise i would gladly reproduce this.
From what i've seen you go off somewhere between or before the marker boards to the right towards the barriers then turn back in towards the apex.This is done carrying some speed not from a standstill.

SDL Rotax
03-05-2016, 15:41
This video comparison is a joke,
Why ? it's simple:

Before starting the lap, he did the last turn at idle.

He plays with TCS

he pass gears too late, and had the AutoClutch.

It warms the brakes, so the car brakes better and accentuates the effect when braking, it should come back to the ghost "accordion effect" but not because the car brakes too.

My best first sector, without taking the sand is 28.180.

I did my best lap in 28,188, I can make a video to show you that it's possible.

and, in the video, it is also slow when it take the sand when it stays on the track, funny no ?

and I'm sure if we compare our two best times, it is not in the first sector there is more difference, but in the last 2.

Magictap
03-05-2016, 15:44
hi peeps. my laps from the first two #NCS events: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBsfoutk-6lwWpRMYf7TjQ1gr9fvCzFVV

cluck
03-05-2016, 15:53
This video comparison is a joke,
Why ? it's simple:

Before starting the lap, he did the last turn at idle.

He plays with TCS

he pass gears too late, and had the AutoClutch.

It warms the brakes, so the car brakes better and accentuates the effect when braking, it should come back to the ghost "accordion effect" but not because the car brakes too.

My best first sector, without taking the sand is 28.180.

I did my best lap in 28,188, I can make a video to show you that it's possible.

and, in the video, it is also slow when it take the sand when it stays on the track, funny no ?

and I'm sure if we compare our two best times, it is not in the first sector there is more difference, but in the last 2.It is indeed probably a very poor comparison (I totally ignored the first part of the video as it's clear it was very slow) but I would still like to see the speed that is genuinely possible to achieve by taking the sand route. That is the only way of putting this to bed and saying "yes it 'might' be a problem" or "nothing to see here, move along".

What is required is a decent driver to record and upload a video, with full telemetry, trying both methods with absolutely the best result possible from them. If the speed at the gantry and/or the '4' marker near the end of the straight are near-as-dammit identical then that should be case closed - those provide as good a pair of data points for 'mid-straight' and 'top' speeds as I can think of :).

_MB_
03-05-2016, 15:56
SDL im pretty sure as your team brought up the corner cutting in previous rounds you guys want this competition to be fair.Im not accusing you personally of any wrong doing or anyone else for this matter.It has been brought up because it has been noticed and footage has been seen of someone doing this.

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 16:00
https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/status/727165402866962432

Magictap
03-05-2016, 16:04
https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/status/727165402866962432

Not tried it so don't know but first impressions are....wow, desperate......that ain't gonna be quicker!!! Surely no one in the top 20 needs to do this?

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 16:06
Not tried it so don't know but first impressions are....wow, desperate......that ain't gonna be quicker!!! Surely no one in the top 20 needs to do this?

Unfortunately this was done by a guy who finnished top 4 on ps4, and he ain't on his own

RC Bizkiller248
03-05-2016, 16:07
I admitte my comparison is not as best as possible because when I understand that, I'm just disgusting. Use TC because use "real assist". Thanks Slash VR for his tweet and I have more proof. I don't want to just talk about SDL, other teams in the community use this cheat.

If Joseph or Andy want the conversation with two teams manager of the best teams in Project CARS I can give us the conversation. This cheat is prooving, sorry to not use it at my best...

cluck
03-05-2016, 16:08
@Slash_VR and Magictap - this is what's been in discussion for the last 40 posts or so :).

cluck
03-05-2016, 16:16
I admitte my comparison is not as best as possible because when I understand that, I'm just disgusting. Use TC because use "real assist". Thanks Slash VR for his tweet and I have more proof. I don't want to just talk about SDL, other teams in the community use this cheat.

If Joseph or Andy want the conversation with two teams manager of the best teams in Project CARS I can give us the conversation. This cheat is prooving, sorry to not use it at my best...Again, as per my post in post #128, the only way of proving this once and for all is for a top-tier driver, who is relatively neutral, to try both methods to the very best of their ability. If there is no clear advantage then it is going to be difficult for SMS to bar those drivers that have used it - who's to say those drivers couldn't have achieved that laptime using the normal last corner route?

CQR Cobblepop
03-05-2016, 16:29
It is going to be hard to prove unless the speed differential is significant. For example, I know cluck mentioned his speed was 123mph (max) when crossing the start/finish line when I could only manage 121mph (max) over the line, and both of these are legitimate laps.

I suppose if someone is crossing the line at, lets say... 130mph, then maybe you could make a case.

RC Bizkiller248
03-05-2016, 16:37
Don't worry let me just a couple of minutes

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 16:48
Not tried it so don't know but first impressions are....wow, desperate......that ain't gonna be quicker!!! Surely no one in the top 20 needs to do this?

If it's not quicker why would most,yes most, of the top 20 on ps4 be doing it? Because they were, I can assure you, and it was definitely quicker. (About 2 tenths as I said before). I can't post a demo vid because I'm old and stupid and don't know how lol

beetes_juice
03-05-2016, 16:53
^https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6106001?hl=en

RC Bizkiller248
03-05-2016, 16:59
So now, let me see the proof by SDL Rotax himself :

I take the video of his lap on the official SDL Motorsport Channel here is the link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7YFTi_f9I&feature=youtu.be

Now some words :
The launch of the lap ? Absent... But it's not a proof... So there is two screenshot at the same position on the circuit.

First, when Rotax begin his lap check de tachymeter : 194km/h -> http://img110.xooimage.com/views/8/0/f/triche1.1-4f457cd.png/

Secondly when Rotax finishing his lap (and of course take the right line at the last corner) : 189km/h -> http://img110.xooimage.com/views/6/5/9/triche1.2-4f45815.png/

So the differencial gap is 5km/h... and we can suppose it's a lot more at the end of the strait line.

I repeat I don't want to accuse just SDL. It's just an example. The problem is, some drivers can use this cheat and doing a worst lap time. But there is no suspicion because their times were slow... I think the best is to re-run the NCS round two as it was last year for Spa in Formula A or Silverstone on Clio Cup. It's not the right decision to accuse just SDL, the problem come from a part of the community who follow this cheat.

I repeat again and again it's not just use by SDL, we just see that on Xbox and use the best lap to explain our claim. But on PS4 as the tweet show to us, it is use too, maybe on PC as well. So re-run the NCS round 2 could be the best solution. Do a patch for tracks limits in Laguna Seca and that's it. No one lose, no one win. We just begin at the initial point and find a good compromise for all, drivers and teams.

SDL Rotax
03-05-2016, 17:00
I made a video for you, I'm trying to upload...

t0daY
03-05-2016, 17:04
I am still hating this 0,001s unnatural downshifts from 6th to 3rd. So stupid and it destroys the immersion for me... am I the only one? :D

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 17:12
@Slash_VR and Magictap - this is what's been in discussion for the last 40 posts or so :).

Yes Cluck I am well aware of that, as a team manager I'll make this point better for you to understand as you seem to feel there's little advantage and no evidence, again firstly take a look at this clip https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/...65402866962432
So you can clearly see what's happening
Now I don't like naming names but on this occasion I'm going to show 1 drivers name who was doing it, please look carefully at this short tweet https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/status/727174887933104128
Now you know the name please look carefully at this lap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auibCMu3zHo&feature=youtu.be
You can clearly see a speed advantage on the run down to turn 1

cluck
03-05-2016, 17:21
Yes Cluck I am well aware of that, as a team manager I'll make this point better for you to understand as you seem to feel there's little advantage and no evidence, again firstly take a look at this clip https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/...65402866962432
So you can clearly see what's happening
Now I don't like naming names but on this occasion I'm going to show 1 drivers name who was doing it, please look carefully at this short tweet https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/...72717488793310412
Now you know the name please look carefully at this lap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auibCMu3zHo&feature=youtu.be
You can clearly see a speed advantage on the run down to turn 1But as I have been at pains to point out, until somebody does a back-to-back test, with telemetry visible, to show that there is a clear and discernible speed advantage at 2 obvious points on the S/F straight, then we have nothing. If there is no speed advantage then all that it has done is possibly allow less skilled drivers the ability to maintain the same S/F straight speed as the top guys. Once they're round that first corner, if their nose is not in front then it's all totally irrelevant. The better drivers will beat them to the finish line, end of story.

And looking at that video (which I have watched, I refer to it earlier in the thread :)), the ghost driver pulls away from the player after S1. At the very start of the lap itself he is not ahead.So if that ghost driver used the exploit to start the lap, it didn't help much ;).

Figuur84
03-05-2016, 17:25
It's even sad people are just trying this out tbh...

t0daY
03-05-2016, 17:26
Yes Cluck I am well aware of that, as a team manager I'll make this point better for you to understand as you seem to feel there's little advantage and no evidence, again firstly take a look at this clip https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/...65402866962432
So you can clearly see what's happening
Now I don't like naming names but on this occasion I'm going to show 1 drivers name who was doing it, please look carefully at this short tweet https://twitter.com/lightweight1980/status/727174887933104128
Now you know the name please look carefully at this lap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auibCMu3zHo&feature=youtu.be
You can clearly see a speed advantage on the run down to turn 1

Speed advantage does not mean he is using this exploit. Could be also a bad exit from your side and if I am honest you can take this corner faster^^ Be carefull who you are accusing of because this can end very fast in the wrong way.

I had a massive discussion in the first round thread and I mentioned it all the time, do not transform these threads into a name and shame threads. We are hunting us each other down, that is so damn wrong guys... Yes it is a competition, yes it is about money but still we are one community, playing the same game and trying to have FUN.

Why people are not getting it...

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 17:36
But as I have been at pains to point out, until somebody does a back-to-back test, with telemetry visible, to show that there is a clear and discernible speed advantage at 2 obvious points on the S/F straight, then we have nothing. If there is no speed advantage then all that it has done is possibly allow less skilled drivers the ability to maintain the same S/F straight speed as the top guys. Once they're round that first corner, if their nose is not in front then it's all totally irrelevant. The better drivers will beat them to the finish line, end of story.

And looking at that video (which I have watched, I refer to it earlier in the thread :)), the ghost driver pulls away from the player after S1. At the very start of the lap itself he is not ahead.So if that ghost driver used the exploit to start the lap, it didn't help much ;).

So firstly you want back to back tests, why? The question should be is the act of leaving the track to gain a perceived advantage against the rules, or just against the spirit of the rules, you keep referring to skilled and less skilled drivers yet what we are talking about is driving in a straight line, my team has scored points in each round so far so are my drivers skilled enough for you, I personally have won a Comunity event on this game am I a skilled enough driver.
Secondly please look again at the video, yes the ghost pulls away after s1, but I'll repeat, on the run down to turn 1 BEFORE the braking zone the ghost is clearly pulling away, now in a completion like this 1 or 2 car lengths advantage is massive for both points and position

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 17:38
Speed advantage does not mean he is using this exploit. Could be also a bad exit from your side and if I am honest you can take this corner faster^^ Be carefull who you are accusing of because this can end very fast in the wrong way.

I had a massive discussion in the first round thread and I mentioned it all the time, do not transform these threads into a name and shame threads. We are hunting us each other down, that is so damn wrong guys... Yes it is a competition, yes it is about money but still we are one community, playing the same game and trying to have FUN.

Why people are not getting it...

With respect I don't want to accuse anybody, just want to make you all aware that it's going on and the advantages or tricks being used

t0daY
03-05-2016, 17:38
So firstly you want back to back tests, why? The question should be is the act of leaving the track to gain a perceived advantage against the rules, or just against the spirit of the rules, you keep referring to skilled and less skilled drivers yet what we are talking about is driving in a straight line, my team has scored points in each round so far so are my drivers skilled enough for you, I personally have won a Comunity event on this game am I a skilled enough driver.
Secondly please look again at the video, yes the ghost pulls away after s1, but I'll repeat, on the run down to turn 1 BEFORE the braking zone the ghost is clearly pulling away, now in a completion like this 1 or 2 car lengths advantage is massive for both points and position

It was because of your bad entry/bad exit of the last turn. Take a break and go outside, the weather is amazing :)



With respect I don't want to accuse anybody, just want to make you all aware that it's going on and the advantages or tricks being used

My second paragraph was meant to be in general. Did not speak about you in particular :)

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 17:39
It was because of your bad entry/bad exit of the last turn. Take a break and go outside, the weather is amazing :)
That's not my lap btw

t0daY
03-05-2016, 17:44
What Cluck is trying to say. For example F1-Masa, one of the fastest people on the PC division in my opinion (sorry to mention you mate :p), did the fastest lap without your "exploit" hence if it is possible to do such a time without your little trick it is not really an exploit because you can achieve the same time without it. That is literally all Cluck wanted to say.

Nobody wants to know if your drivers are skilled enough or you won the world championship in chess or whatever. You are just making it bigger than it actually is...

cluck
03-05-2016, 17:45
So firstly you want back to back tests, why? The question should be is the act of leaving the track to gain a perceived advantage against the rules, or just against the spirit of the rules, you keep referring to skilled and less skilled drivers yet what we are talking about is driving in a straight line, my team has scored points in each round so far so are my drivers skilled enough for you, I personally have won a Comunity event on this game am I a skilled enough driver.
Secondly please look again at the video, yes the ghost pulls away after s1, but I'll repeat, on the run down to turn 1 BEFORE the braking zone the ghost is clearly pulling away, now in a completion like this 1 or 2 car lengths advantage is massive for both points and positionThis is my final reply on this and with the greatest of respect to the driver in the video, the only thing the video proves is that the guy in the video is slower down to T1 than the ghost. I have already pointed out that I was faster at 2 data points on the S/F straight than the driver in the video. I can't prove it so you'll have to take my word for it.

Read back through my posts in this thread and you will see where I am coming from :).

RC Bizkiller248
03-05-2016, 17:51
So now, let me see the proof by SDL Rotax himself :

I take the video of his lap on the official SDL Motorsport Channel here is the link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7YFTi_f9I&feature=youtu.be

Now some words :
The launch of the lap ? Absent... But it's not a proof... So there is two screenshot at the same position on the circuit.

First, when Rotax begin his lap check de tachymeter : 194km/h -> http://img110.xooimage.com/views/8/0/f/triche1.1-4f457cd.png/

Secondly when Rotax finishing his lap (and of course take the right line at the last corner) : 189km/h -> http://img110.xooimage.com/views/6/5/9/triche1.2-4f45815.png/

So the differencial gap is 5km/h... and we can suppose it's a lot more at the end of the strait line.

I repeat I don't want to accuse just SDL. It's just an example. The problem is, some drivers can use this cheat and doing a worst lap time. But there is no suspicion because their times were slow... I think the best is to re-run the NCS round two as it was last year for Spa in Formula A or Silverstone on Clio Cup. It's not the right decision to accuse just SDL, the problem come from a part of the community who follow this cheat.

I repeat again and again it's not just use by SDL, we just see that on Xbox and use the best lap to explain our claim. But on PS4 as the tweet show to us, it is use too, maybe on PC as well. So re-run the NCS round 2 could be the best solution. Do a patch for tracks limits in Laguna Seca and that's it. No one lose, no one win. We just begin at the initial point and find a good compromise for all, drivers and teams.

What about my post ? And this 5km/h gap difference ?

Gasman888
03-05-2016, 17:54
The fact is people are driving way off track to gain a perceived advantage which you can clearly see as the ghost in the video is much faster at the line and into turn 1. Gain or no gain people are way off track to try, let's say, to gain an advantage on the straight. To say there's no gain and it doesn't matter is disappointing. I watched most of the top 20's ghosts and you can tell instantly who does it and the only way to prove it is for SMS to compare speeds at start and finish of the lap,the difference is about 10-15mph at the start and obviously slower at the end of the lap when the final corner is taken correctly. It's disappointing to see the videos posted by certain people have been trimmed to not show the corner in question which doesn't help matters, but ultimately what I think doesn't matter, it's down to SMS and we have to wait and see what happens. P.s as far as "hunting each other down" is concerned, it's not personal, it's merely pointing out discrepancies and the people that used this cheat know who they are and if they take offence at this being uncovered and didn't want to be named they shouldn't have done it.( I'm sure they'll get over it)

SDL Rotax
03-05-2016, 18:08
this is my first sector, 182, I go at the same speed and it is the same trajectories that my validated time in SMS-R, then what?


I did not cut like all SDL drivers, the other players, I do not know, I bring our evidence, if you do not get to go as fast is that you passed your gears badly, wrong trajectories,
wrong settings of the game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYJph6DDs0A&feature=youtu.be

Slash_VR
03-05-2016, 18:35
This is my final reply on this and with the greatest of respect to the driver in the video, the only thing the video proves is that the guy in the video is slower down to T1 than the ghost.

Exactly which is the point I'm making, also I know you'll have been faster at certain points but that might be because you're on pc which is running a different version build of the game, I'm just showing 1 example on the PS4 of two drivers both of whom are in the top 20 on the PS4 leaderboard. 1 of whom didnt use the exploit/cheat and 1 who did.

GT-Club_Atho_
03-05-2016, 18:36
this is my first sector, 182, I go at the same speed and it is the same trajectories that my validated time in SMS-R, then what?


I did not cut like all SDL drivers, the other players, I do not know, I bring our evidence, if you do not get to go as fast is that you passed your gears badly, wrong trajectories,
wrong settings of the game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYJph6DDs0A&feature=youtu.be


At what moment we can see that is on the community event and not on hotlap mode with custom setup ? :rolleyes:

inthebagbud
03-05-2016, 18:39
hangs head in exasperation and slowly shakes it trying to comprehend what is happening.....................................................

_MB_
03-05-2016, 18:44
this is my first sector, 182, I go at the same speed and it is the same trajectories that my validated time in SMS-R, then what?


I did not cut like all SDL drivers, the other players, I do not know, I bring our evidence, if you do not get to go as fast is that you passed your gears badly, wrong trajectories,
wrong settings of the game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYJph6DDs0A&feature=youtu.be

Thank you rotax
tried to pause this at the very start of the lap not to disprove you but to prove my bad exit wasn't as bad as it seems yet the ghost on my vid still pulls away
232577232578232579

ralphy0502
03-05-2016, 18:55
this is my first sector, 182, I go at the same speed and it is the same trajectories that my validated time in SMS-R, then what?


I did not cut like all SDL drivers, the other players, I do not know, I bring our evidence, if you do not get to go as fast is that you passed your gears badly, wrong trajectories,
wrong settings of the game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYJph6DDs0A&feature=youtu.be

Firstly let me make this clear, i am not taking sides at all!

But theres a few things wrong with this...

How does this prove people are not cutting?

As atho said, wheres the proof this isnt hotlap mode?

"I did not cut like all SDL drivers"... sorry to point it out but you may of dropped the team in it there....

As it keeps getting mentioned, a trusted driver needs to do the comparison. i.e the SMS staff who watch the replays.

SDL Rotax
03-05-2016, 19:08
well let SMS judge for themselves, but we are the only ones to show that we're not out of the track, unlike other.

Dmitry Afanasyev
03-05-2016, 19:15
Not a fan of this discussion, but I don't understand one thing. Masa and Rotax shared their fastest lap videos at SDL channel. Why they can't just share unedited videos of their full lap including the moment with exit from the final corner to prove that they was really fast and clean there?

Magictap
03-05-2016, 19:30
Sorry Chuck, you'll forgive me for happening across the discussion 40 posts in ;O( my bad.

My 2 pence worth. If this cutting is not penalized, then moving forward when someone even just feels there is an advantage, it will occur again. However, if there is no actual advantage and no penalty then it doesn't effect me, apart from to say i personally dislike the ethics and look of it.

Moving forward though, all circuits cutting occurs would require back to back tests to prove / disprove, adding work and mud slinging. Possibly penalties if found to be an advantage.

If no advantage this time, I would like to see a warning that moving forward this will not be tolerated either way putting an end to the practice. ;O)

Back to back tests could also be done by those not the fastest, its a comparison between the fastest 'clean' opening part of the lap you can do VS the fastest 'cutting' one with telemetry. An advantage can be gained by drivers of different skills if there is one to be had. Its about whether there IS an advantage, not if there is an advantage only to the fastest. With a higher skill level the fastest drivers often don't gain an advantage from most tricks like this. Where as a driver with less skill could benefit from a trick such as this which removes the skill of acceleration, therefore placing them higher than a more or similarly skilled driver not having used the trick.

Just like to add, it is so cool Pcars is doing these eSports champs and challenges. Looking forward to seeing our hobby / sport growing stronger every year and all of us learning as we go.

Pcars 2 should really rock with all this learning ;O)

Peace.

beetes_juice
03-05-2016, 19:35
If no advantage this time, I would like to see a warning that moving forward this will not be tolerated either way putting an end to the practice. ;O)

Nailed it on the head sir. Advantage or not, rules state "Drivers must use the track at all times".

cluck
03-05-2016, 20:34
Sorry Chuck, you'll forgive me for happening across the discussion 40 posts in ;O( my bad.Not a problem at all and no need for forgiveness ;).


If no advantage this time, I would like to see a warning that moving forward this will not be tolerated either way putting an end to the practice. ;O)Absolutely

and


Nailed it on the head sir. Advantage or not, rules state "Drivers must use the track at all times".Indeed

HOWEVER

proving it is another matter. And this is what I've been trying to keep a rational voice about since the matter was raised. It doesn't matter IF people are finding an exploit and it doesn't matter if THEY gained an advantage to themselves in doing so, what matters is whether or not that exploit actually results in greater speed down the S/F straight. I just did a VERY quick test and found that I could hit the front of the shadow under the gantry at no more than 122-123mph (so, no faster than I could do with a perfectly clean exit from the last turn) and my speed at the #4 marker board was 142mph. I got the same result trying a standing start from the back of the sand, trying a moving entry and doing a normal clean lap.

For me, the exploit does nothing to improve my speed on the S/F straight. If I cannot find more than 1mph by the gantry and 0mph by the time I'm braking, then the 'exploit' does nothing to help me. I came 11th in the PC division.

That is absolutely my last comment. It is in the hands of the devs, they are aware of it, they are looking into it.


EDIT : My quick test is far from exhaustive of course so I would encourage others to repeat it and see what they can do. Record it and see what your speeds are at the start of the gantry shadow and at the #4 board. I think both of those points should give a clear indication of speed and whether any advantage is gained.

RC Bizkiller248
03-05-2016, 21:12
Look the "proof" of Rotax :

Firstly, it's not in community event, you can compare the shadow (first picture not in NCS, second during NCS). So different condition to set this lap time in the first sector.

Secondly as I do with the first video I take a screenshot at the same place... Conclusion ? 191km/h just better than 189km/h at the end of the NCS lap... But still 4km/h behing the beginning of the NCS Lap... And for sure with the elevation and the shifting the phenomene is bigger. But in the NCS lap of Rotax we haven't got the breaking point at the first corner...

There is an advantage, you just cannot ignore it ! Twitter + videos + screenshots... What can I do better ? This run need to be re-run.

Screenshot of the shadows : http://img110.xooimage.com/views/5/1/4/13115590_17477087...698367_n-4f461c1.jpg/

Screenshot of the beginning of the NCS lap (194/5 km/h) : http://img110.xooimage.com/views/8/0/f/triche1.1-4f457cd.png/

Screenshot of the end of the NCS lap (189km/h): http://img110.xooimage.com/views/6/5/9/triche1.2-4f45815.png/

Screenshot of the beginning of the "proof" of Rotax (191km/h) : http://img110.xooimage.com/views/2/f/a/triche1.3-4f461df.png/


Finally a conversation of a driver with Rotax (in French) : http://img110.xooimage.com/views/e/1/8/13128840_17476370...101858_o-4f461f2.jpg/
THIS is a proof there is an advantage, look the date : 30th of March at the beginning of the NCS round 2. Also prouve that the SDL was not alone, as Magictap says the problem is not if there is an advantage (but of course there is an advantage) but they don't respect track limits, other competitors and generall rules in racing !

cmch15
03-05-2016, 21:57
...the problem is not if there is an advantage but they don't respect track limits, other competitors and generall rules in racing !

I think this is correct, whether an advantage or not, if an attempt to gain such an advantage is made then it should be penalised.

I also think although "the white lines define the track edge", clearing out the brake markers to use more asphalt can't really be right either can it?

Fyi, I am not high enough to gain from any of this so can be considered impartial.

Yorkie065
03-05-2016, 21:59
I'm not denying that there is no potential advantage to be gained by going off track, but at the same time I feel like people could quite easily overlooking good driving. I mean 4kph (2.5mph), really? That is something that can easily be created from a small variation in lines (valid ones) where one might be hooked up better than another, better traction, better timing of gear shifts. I know every little tenth and everything counts in this, but I feel that people are drawing the 'cheater/exploiter' card too quickly. Like I said, not saying it's not happening as there is evidence that it is, but just because drivers x,y and z all have very quick times, doesn't mean that they've used exploits, cheats, bent the rules to get there. Let SMS do their thing, investigate it, and if alterations in the rulings need to be made, I'm sure they will be done so for the next round.

Lightweight1980
03-05-2016, 22:04
On ps4 half guys in top 10 did this.I loaded a vid to my twitter to show what doing.ghost that had done this were 100/200 quicker to 1st bend depending how well they cheated.top guys cheating is disgusting.

Puffpirat
03-05-2016, 22:18
All this needs to stop and I'm sure SMS knows this. The last two threads for the rounds of the NCS were all about cheating and exploiting, nearly nothing about the competition itself, it's really not fun.

In F1 there is a rule about the image of the sport and that you are not allowed to harm it...just saying.

Innerspace_HQ
03-05-2016, 22:26
All this needs to stop and I'm sure SMS knows this. The last two threads for the rounds of the NCS were all about cheating and exploiting, nearly nothing about the competition itself, it's really not fun.

In F1 there is a rule about the image of the sport and that you are not allowed to harm it...just saying.

I don't think image is an issue here. If F1 was suffering these problems you can bet your boots there would be voices aired. Also - they're paid to follow the rules. If SMS wants to start paying people things would be different.

It's turned a bit sour, I'm with you, and while it's been flogged beyond death I just can't blame people for being annoyed at the lack of respect from other competitors.

Lightweight1980
03-05-2016, 22:58
People I know spent hours on this to be cheated it's disgusting.I have been called all sorts by the cheats through pm messages as I caught the guys ghost in 1st place on ps4 doing it as it hadn't loaded his proper ghost lap.but sure shows intention for nxt lap.so I loaded vid to show and explain how guys were going faster on straights.u top guys that did it should be ashamed.all u defending cheating obviously did it too plain and simple.also I only talking ps4 as what I play and tested ghosts in top 10 and only 4 of 10 didn't do it.respect to u honest guys I say.twitter lightweight1980 for footage of exactly what guy in 1st ps4 was doing.

Yorkie065
03-05-2016, 23:15
All this needs to stop and I'm sure SMS knows this. The last two threads for the rounds of the NCS were all about cheating and exploiting, nearly nothing about the competition itself, it's really not fun.

In F1 there is a rule about the image of the sport and that you are not allowed to harm it...just saying.

Agreed. A lot of this could have quite easily have been done via pm to the devs, rather than posting it publicly on forums where others can see it, try it and potentially get away with it. If the devs know, they can keep an eye out for it and exclude anyone from the results that gets caught doing it. Something that we've also yet to receive by the way, and in will of course exclude anyone who was found to be braking NCS rules!

I think it would be a good suggestion to make going forward, rather than people making potential exploits more widely known by posting it here, and instead the devs being alerted of it to make sure that any written ruling covers said issue. It's not particularly great for a new player coming into these threads, to see the posts of the last 'x' amount of pages have been people calling out others with cheats and exploits. I know it would turn me off from entering the competition straight away.

Innerspace_HQ
03-05-2016, 23:22
Agreed. A lot of this could have quite easily have been done via pm to the devs, rather than posting it publicly on forums where others can see it, try it and potentially get away with it. If the devs know, they can keep an eye out for it and exclude anyone from the results that gets caught doing it. Something that we've also yet to receive by the way, and in will of course exclude anyone who was found to be braking NCS rules!

I think it would be a good suggestion to make going forward, rather than people making potential exploits more widely known by posting it here, and instead the devs being alerted of it to make sure that any written ruling covers said issue. It's not particularly great for a new player coming into these threads, to see the posts of the last 'x' amount of pages have been people calling out others with cheats and exploits. I know it would turn me off from entering the competition straight away.

Where is this perfect world of which you speak? ;)

Puffpirat
03-05-2016, 23:24
Well there is money in the game but I don't care really as I don't play a role in this. The respect of others towards the game and the competition was what I meant in the first place.

Just read your reply yorkie, yeah that would be nice wouldn't it :)

Innerspace_HQ
03-05-2016, 23:28
Well there is money in the game but I don't care really as I don't play a role in this. The respect of others towards the game and the competition was what I meant in the first place.

I know what you meant, I agree too. I just can't blame people for being a bit shouty on the subject. It's a big mess but that's not really anything new here really.

What Yorkie is saying is also spot on, all it does is highlight it to others less honest. I'm in the championship with a team, even if we were in the running for top spots we all agree it's about playing within the rules. Gentleman racing. Winning (or trying to) by cheating is a hollow victory, so no victory at all.

It is what it is. It's been highlighted, further vocalisation of it is really just people venting their spleen. This is not perfect but it will always happen.

_MB_
04-05-2016, 01:59
My final say on this matter.
Yes i could have pm'd a mod about this issue but i feel it could have easily been brushed under the carpet,at least with awareness everyone knows whats going on and imo i think everyone has the right to know and lets be honest news travels fast so it was always going to come out.
As my 1st post states im not accusing anyone and was the 1st to say maybe i was just taking the final corner wrong.I spent alot of time mucking about with sensitivity settings,recalibration,swapping pedals and trying to master the final turn to hear rumours a couple of hours before the event closes what was supposedly happening.So yes i was feeling very frustrated.
I knew i had the potential to up in the top 30 so naturally i didn't want to be on the back foot on the very 1st straight so this is why i spent/wasted so much time trying to get the same top speed others had.
E-sports is still pretty new and going to have issues to begin with.We should want to make this as fair as possible and things like this surely can only make events like this better in the future whether that be here with pcars or other titles.We should all learn from this,lets make things like esports the very best it can be.Atm it's a learning curve so ironing these issue out can only be a good thing right?
Apologise for disrupting this thread but i do stand by what i have said.I know i wont win this competition,thats not the issue,we have some amazing talent here taking part but i for one would rather see the winners win it the right way.
Goodnight
MB

CQR Cobblepop
04-05-2016, 04:32
I couldn't agree more MB. This is about ironing out the creases for future competitions. One of the fundamentals of a competition like this is that everyone has an equal and fair chance of competing, it's the only way of ensuring that talent is the decisive factor.

...and incidentally, I'm of the opinion this is precisely the kind of issue these forums are for. I agree that individuals shouldn't be singled out, however, I don't necessarily agree that these issues should be quietly dealt with behind closed doors. There's a weight of difference between one or two PM's to the mods, and an open discussion involving a number of people providing testimony which potentially highlights how widespread an issue can be.

Besides, this is about as tasty as it gets on here ;)

cluck
04-05-2016, 07:38
People I know spent hours on this to be cheated it's disgusting.I have been called all sorts by the cheats through pm messages as I caught the guys ghost in 1st place on ps4 doing it as it hadn't loaded his proper ghost lap.but sure shows intention for nxt lap.so I loaded vid to show and explain how guys were going faster on straights.u top guys that did it should be ashamed.all u defending cheating obviously did it too plain and simple.also I only talking ps4 as what I play and tested ghosts in top 10 and only 4 of 10 didn't do it.respect to u honest guys I say.twitter lightweight1980 for footage of exactly what guy in 1st ps4 was doing.If you have had abusive PMs then forward them to a moderator. Abuse is not tolerated on this forum.


Also, I'm going to have to step in now with my moderator hat on.

The discussion regarding who might have done what, where and how ends now. The devs and organisers are aware of the allegations and that is all that is required for now. Thank you to the guys raising it in the first instance - my personal opinion is that something like this should be raised in public if only that we can get to the bottom of it more quickly. All that I would ask is that people stick to facts and provide evidence-based responses in future, rather than name-calling and conjecture :). If the devs need proof, they will request it. This particular topic is now closed* :).


* unlike the thread, which will remain open unless people can't control themselves.

Figuur84
04-05-2016, 18:38
If you have had abusive PMs then forward them to a moderator. Abuse is not tolerated on this forum.


Also, I'm going to have to step in now with my moderator hat on.

The discussion regarding who might have done what, where and how ends now. The devs and organisers are aware of the allegations and that is all that is required for now. Thank you to the guys raising it in the first instance - my personal opinion is that something like this should be raised in public if only that we can get to the bottom of it more quickly. All that I would ask is that people stick to facts and provide evidence-based responses in future, rather than name-calling and conjecture :). If the devs need proof, they will request it. This particular topic is now closed* :).


* unlike the thread, which will remain open unless people can't control themselves.

Respect Cluck. It seems like nobody dares to comment anymore haha! Or else you cluck'm to death ��

Joseph Barron
05-05-2016, 11:30
Hi guys. The official results for NCS R2 have now been posted.
http://www.projectcarsesports.com/home/nvidia-challenger-series-round-2

Please allow some extra time for SMS staff to respond to any questions about these results as we are working at London Motor Show. In the meantime, Cluck and co. will continue to moderate this thread.

It proved to be a controversial weekend in the Console Division. PS4 driver, Fab of team PSF Racing, was found to have severely exploited track limits at the start of his lap in order to gain extra momentum on the start-finish straight. Fab would have been one of our fastest drivers without this misdemeanor, but unfortunately the SMS staff were forced to exclude him from Round 2’s results.

Fab has actually contacted SMS to apologise for his mistake. He admitted that he did go off track and also promised to stick to the rules in the future. This honest apology was hugely appreciated all of us here.

Although there was some discussion in the forums about other drivers potentially having done the same thing as Fab, SMS staff cannot say with certainty that the additional accused drivers broke the rules. The evidence brought forward did not show these drivers driving off the track at the final corner. Whereas in Fab’s case, the evidence very clearly shows him exploiting track limits and he was therefore penalised appropriately and he has also apologised for his actions.

All drivers in Project CARS Esports events are innocent until proven guilty in cases of disputes like this one.

Please continue to be vigilant about exploits and inform us of any suspicious activity you see in future Rounds. Any driver found to be using an exploit in future will be excluded from the current Round. Multiple offences will result in multi-race bans.

If several members of the same team are proven to have used exploits, then the entire team in question will receive a multi-race ban.

This matter is considered closed for now.

cluck
05-05-2016, 13:09
Cheers Joe and hope the show goes well - big launch for you guys tomorrow with the Game Of The Year edition being released so I can well imagine you'll have your hands full.

[MOD HAT OFF]

From my perspective, that was a great round. Constantly working at dropping the time, trying to nail all 3 sectors together without running wide (I cannot tell you how many times I went a couple of inches wide coming out of turn 6 :o ). Even my best lap was still some 2 or 3 tenths down on what I could actually do but enough was enough. I was, at that point, sat in 10th place with just a couple of hours to go. Nobody else seemed to be improving their times so I stopped and put my feet up. Oh how foolish that was, I was pipped at the 11th hour and dropped down to 11th. I will admit, I was mildly miffed but this is only the second round of the first competitive thing I've done in my life so I'm pretty damn happy with 11th place. If it weren't for my ghost bugging out in the 1st round, I would have finished 14th (I think) there.

Congratulations to the top drivers in both divisions. A shame the event was marred slightly by the exploits (in every sense of the word ;)) of one driver but that driver has shown great humility by the looks of things, which is an admirable quality. Of course, in an ideal world there would be no need for exploits, for cheats, but I emplore all of us drivers to report suspected cheating in future so that it can be stamped out as best as possible. And on that note, as I wrote previously, this needs to be done in a calm and measured manner, sticking to the facts.

And I can't leave this without giving a huge shout out to my fellow teammates, Puffpirate and JetPistol, who joined me in the points for this round. Team Revolution Sim Racing is on the map and here to stay :D.


[MOD HAT ON]

I will be monitoring this thread very carefully. However, in the interests of fairness and transparency, I will not be intervening directly again. As a fellow competitor in this competition, any posting I make as a moderator will automatically carry some bias in some eyes, I am acutely aware that I can do nothing about that.

Now, I don't know if my previous post just scared the life out of some of you but this thread has remained open to post in. However, when posting, be aware that what will NOT be tolerated is any form of abuse or any further accusations against fellow competitors in this round. If you have a genuine grievance or complaint regarding the final standings, PM it to me and I will pass it on to Joe and/or Andy. Any posts of this nature will be removed, not just from this thread but any others where they are found.

Remember, the decision of the organisers is final. We are all bound by that and we all accepted that when signing up for this competition :)

RC Bizkiller248
05-05-2016, 13:18
I'm completly disappointed to see that decision. Penalize nothing... why not? The problem is there are lots of cheating, you cannot proove that ? So re-run this round as Silverstone last year (it's difficult to judge who used the pitlane to set a lap time, it's the same case here), an other drivers realize this montage for us :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAef-njI7k8

Sorry but this championship is not simracing. Considere to exploit the track limits is OK when there is no advantage is one thing, disappointing as well. But penalize honesty and just ignore that at the top of the staff... I have no words.

Or just one, goodbye.

CQR Cobblepop
05-05-2016, 13:37
Although there was some discussion in the forums about other drivers potentially having done the same thing as Fab, SMS staff cannot say with certainty that the additional accused drivers broke the rules. The evidence brought forward did not show these drivers driving off the track at the final corner. Whereas in Fab’s case, the evidence very clearly shows him exploiting track limits and he was therefore penalised appropriately and he has also apologised for his actions.

This matter is considered closed for now.

Can I ask if fresh evidence (where possible) can be provided, will this be looked into further? I only ask because your closing comment implies there's some scope for this to be investigated further.

cluck
05-05-2016, 13:45
Can I ask if fresh evidence (where possible) can be provided, will this be looked into further? I only ask because your closing comment implies there's some scope for this to be investigated further.If what you want to provide is actual evidence of cheating then please PM it to me and I will pass it to Joe and/or Andy.

If you feel that I am not impartial enough then PM your evidence to a fellow mod and note that I requested you to do so. However. I want to assure everybody that I am not going to act as a judge in any manner, that is not my role, I am acting purely as a conduit to Joe and Andy. One thing I pride myself on is my honesty and integrity. Also, as a fellow competitor it would be beyond stupid for me to act without 100% integrity in this role - I would be out of the competition, letting down not just myself but my fellow teammates, the reputation of moderators on here and SMS.

Please bear in mind Joe's note that both of them are busy this weekend with the London Motor Show and the launch of the Game Of The Year edition of the game and that, consequently, you should not expect a response until next week at the earliest :).

Sankyo
05-05-2016, 13:51
I'm completly disappointed to see that decision. Penalize honesty ...
I think you didn't correctly read cluck's posting.


If you have a genuine grievance or complaint regarding the final standings, PM it to me and I will pass it on to Joe and/or Andy.

So if you have a complaint or proof of cheating, report it through PM and don't turn this thread into a name and shame thread.

Gasman888
05-05-2016, 15:27
If what you want to provide is actual evidence of cheating then please PM it to me and I will pass it to Joe and/or Andy.

If you feel that I am not impartial enough then PM your evidence to a fellow mod and note that I requested you to do so. However. I want to assure everybody that I am not going to act as a judge in any manner, that is not my role, I am acting purely as a conduit to Joe and Andy. One thing I pride myself on is my honesty and integrity. Also, as a fellow competitor it would be beyond stupid for me to act without 100% integrity in this role - I would be out of the competition, letting down not just myself but my fellow teammates, the reputation of moderators on here and SMS.

Please bear in mind Joe's note that both of them are busy this weekend with the London Motor Show and the launch of the Game Of The Year edition of the game and that, consequently, you should not expect a response until next week at the earliest :).

From my experience of some moderators on this forum, I think you have been extremely fair and reasonable and indeed remained impartial throughout this discussion so congrats and Thankyou Cluck.
On the flip side I am quite disappointed by SMS decision on this matter, seems like an easy way out to me, but it is what it is and there decision is final so that's it from me on this matter, such a shame to lose out by sticking to the rules, losing interest in this competition as a result.

Otherworld
05-05-2016, 18:31
Hi guys. The official results for NCS R2 have now been posted.
http://www.projectcarsesports.com/home/nvidia-challenger-series-round-2

Please allow some extra time for SMS staff to respond to any questions about these results as we are working at London Motor Show. In the meantime, Cluck and co. will continue to moderate this thread.

It proved to be a controversial weekend in the Console Division. PS4 driver, Fab of team PSF Racing, was found to have severely exploited track limits at the start of his lap in order to gain extra momentum on the start-finish straight. Fab would have been one of our fastest drivers without this misdemeanor, but unfortunately the SMS staff were forced to exclude him from Round 2’s results.

Fab has actually contacted SMS to apologise for his mistake. He admitted that he did go off track and also promised to stick to the rules in the future. This honest apology was hugely appreciated all of us here.

Although there was some discussion in the forums about other drivers potentially having done the same thing as Fab, SMS staff cannot say with certainty that the additional accused drivers broke the rules. The evidence brought forward did not show these drivers driving off the track at the final corner. Whereas in Fab’s case, the evidence very clearly shows him exploiting track limits and he was therefore penalised appropriately and he has also apologised for his actions.

All drivers in Project CARS Esports events are innocent until proven guilty in cases of disputes like this one.

Please continue to be vigilant about exploits and inform us of any suspicious activity you see in future Rounds. Any driver found to be using an exploit in future will be excluded from the current Round. Multiple offences will result in multi-race bans.

If several members of the same team are proven to have used exploits, then the entire team in question will receive a multi-race ban.

This matter is considered closed for now.
"the Esports drivers putting in times which were remarkably similar to the IMSA drivers." ? Come on, I get that you need to write fancy PR stuff to hype it up a bit, but 1:21.3 is 2 whole seconds better than the best time put by a C7-R last weekend.

ralphy0502
05-05-2016, 19:31
So everyone, to sum up, it looks like if you want to cheat by all means do so, just dont get caught!!
Because thats basically whats happened.

This is ridiculas. You cannot penalise ONE driver for cheating and nobody else. How many people do we reckon have scored points by cheating...

If you are not going to re-run the round or even cancel it then Fab should of kept his points. Afterall what difference does it make as others have scored by cheating...

Mahjik
05-05-2016, 19:32
"the Esports drivers putting in times which were remarkably similar to the IMSA drivers." ? Come on, I get that you need to write fancy PR stuff to hype it up a bit, but 1:21.3 is 2 whole seconds better than the best time put by a C7-R last weekend.

No more comments like this. It's not needed nor productive.

cluck
05-05-2016, 19:40
Again, since some people have missed it ...


Now, I don't know if my previous post just scared the life out of some of you but this thread has remained open to post in. However, when posting, be aware that what will NOT be tolerated is any form of abuse or any further accusations against fellow competitors in this round. If you have a genuine grievance or complaint regarding the final standings, PM it to me and I will pass it on to Joe and/or Andy. Any posts of this nature will be removed, not just from this thread but any others where they are found.

@ralphy0502 - To answer your question - although Joe already covered this in his post (post #181 in this thread) - other players were not banned because it was not possible with the evidence at SMS' disposal, to prove that other players have cheated. It doesn't matter whether people think they have or are certain they have, unless SMS can prove it, they cannot take action.

If people have proof of cheating, absolute, definitive, 100% undeniable proof then PM it to me and I will pass it on to Joe/Andy so that they can investigate.

Further posts like yours from anybody WILL be removed - I have left yours as another example of what NOT to post in response to the results. This is not an attempt to censor people or silence debate. If you have proof of cheating, PM it to me (or another mod if preferred).

ralphy0502
05-05-2016, 20:07
Again, since some people have missed it ...



@ralphy0502 - To answer your question - although Joe already covered this in his post (post #181 in this thread) - other players were not banned because it was not possible with the evidence at SMS' disposal, to prove that other players have cheated. It doesn't matter whether people think they have or are certain they have, unless SMS can prove it, they cannot take action.

If people have proof of cheating, absolute, definitive, 100% undeniable proof then PM it to me and I will pass it on to Joe/Andy so that they can investigate.

Further posts like yours from anybody WILL be removed - I have left yours as another example of what NOT to post in response to the results. This is not an attempt to censor people or silence debate. If you have proof of cheating, PM it to me (or another mod if preferred).

I am just stating in general, everybody now knows it is fine to cheat as long as you dont get caught.

Ch1ps N Queso
05-05-2016, 20:12
This thread

232687

Give it a rest people. The gents are doing their best with a system that is clearly not perfect. Relax a little and get ready for the next round.

Zakspeed_TV
05-05-2016, 20:40
I don't understand why people with abnormal speed at the start wasn't asked for proof of lap! Last week we had people DQed unfairly this week people get away with cheating. Shame as its put a lot of people off now, myself included.

cluck
05-05-2016, 21:06
Since some people cannot follow a very simple instruction not to post about cheating, this thread is now locked until 9am tomorrow (or thereabouts).

If you have evidence of cheating, evidence that SMS can use to prove - without a shadow of a doubt - that another competitor gained an unfair advantage in this round then PM it to me and I will forward it to Joe and/or Andy. If you are here just to voice your annoyance that you think the results are unfair then your posts will be removed.

The final decision on the results rest with the organisers. They have the final word, not us as competitors. If they cannot determine, from the evidence they have, that a player has or hasn't used some form of exploit then they cannot exclude that player. Doing so runs the very real risk of excluding an honest and clean driver, who just happened to nail the perfect exit from the final turn to start their lap.

As a fellow competitor, locking this thread is the last thing I wanted to have to do but I suggest you all take a little time to calm down and come back here tomorrow.

cluck
06-05-2016, 08:14
I would like to remind everybody of the following key points :-

1. If you have definitive proof of cheating, PM it to me and I will pass it to Joe and/or Andy. For action to be taken the evidence must prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that a competitor has gained an unfair advantage.

2. Any further posts relating to cheating, unfair results, threats of quitting the championship will be removed.

3. The organisers have the final say on the results, those are the rules we all agreed to abide by when signing up. If it helps, think of the organisers as a football (soccer) referee.


With that, the thread is now open again.

Joseph Barron
10-05-2016, 11:45
Hi everyone.

Since the initial adjudication and publication of these results, further evidence was brought forward indicating that members of Team Shark Racing knowingly and openly used the same track exploit used by PSF Racing driver, Fab.

In light of this, Challenger Points earned by Team Shark Racing members during NCS Round 2 have been removed in accordance with Section 4) Conduct of the NCS Regulations and the official Driver and Team Standings have been updated accordingly.

We hope that this sends a clear message to all participants, that cheating of any kind in official Project CARS Esports events will not be tolerated and will be subject to penalties.

The updated points tables are available at:
http://www.projectcarsesports.com/2016-nvidia-challenger-series.html

Unity_YoDa
10-05-2016, 16:30
And the others ? missing someone

cluck
10-05-2016, 16:50
And the others ? missing someoneAs stated multiple times, if you have evidence that somebody else was cheating then PM it to me and I will ensure it reaches Joe and/or Andy. However, the competition ended over a week ago now, so there has been plenty of opportunity to provide evidence.

Kevin Malot
10-05-2016, 16:58
Hi everyone.

Since the initial adjudication and publication of these results, further evidence was brought forward indicating that members of Team Shark Racing knowingly and openly used the same track exploit used by PSF Racing driver, Fab.

In light of this, Challenger Points earned by Team Shark Racing members during NCS Round 2 have been removed in accordance with Section 4) Conduct of the NCS Regulations and the official Driver and Team Standings have been updated accordingly.

We hope that this sends a clear message to all participants, that cheating of any kind in official Project CARS Esports events will not be tolerated and will be subject to penalties.

The updated points tables are available at:
http://www.projectcarsesports.com/2016-nvidia-challenger-series.html

Hi,
Seriously, i don't understand.
Why you take this decision after diffusion of official results?
Do you need help for organize this championship?
I'm really worried for the rest of your championship.


Kevin

President of GTFUSION (License Manager on PCARS 1 and World Championship organizer of Gran Turismo since 5 years)

BAM Mewt
10-05-2016, 17:32
However the game studio:
1. Doesn't reply to emails with evidences we send about refereeing malfunctions, in particular NCS ones.
2. Neither doesn't reply to decisions and sanctions explanation requests .
At some point, we don't have to be surprised if things are going down the drain...

Called again several times, MP exchanges made on Twitter with no success, everything has already been done, thing that we have pointed out during our inter team meeting yesterday.
SMS has 2 major problems about their competitions management:
- A evident lack of qualified staff to manage and organise LGCS and NCS (articles, organisation, replay reviews, refereeing, communication, follow-ups...) and a huge lack of transparence about the decisions made (no feedback, no justification about sanctions, points forgettings, no summaries of decision taken...) which comes most probably from that lack of number too and then available time ...
Raising 20k€ of cash price for a competition mays look interesting and respectable, but when we can see the situation where we are right now, before the Round 3 (already), I have no idea how things will happen if the situation stills the same... Sure thing is it won't be good neither for the organisation and the developers nor their game.


BAM e-Sport Team Leader since 2008

John Hargreaves
10-05-2016, 17:35
Why you take this decision after diffusion of official results?
Do you need help for organize this championship?



He'd probably just settle for sad losers to stop trying to cheat.

cluck
10-05-2016, 17:45
He'd probably just settle for sad losers to stop trying to cheat.As much as I'm sure there are many that feel this way John, I would request that there are no further posts of this nature. It only serves to potentially inflame the situation.

Thank you.

cluck
10-05-2016, 18:16
Do you need help for organize this championship?

A evident lack of qualified staff to manage and organise LGCS and NCSThese types of comments that are not acceptable. By all means feel free to express your disappointment, but accusing the organisers of being unable to perform their duties is not acceptable.

BAM Mewt
10-05-2016, 18:24
These types of comments that are not acceptable. By all means feel free to express your disappointment, but accusing the organisers of being unable to perform their duties is not acceptable.

Why? I don't want any problem for me or my players. I ask the question, to understand where is the problem. We can't write what are our feelings here? It's Cuba or North Korea?

I can, i want to help you, really, and i ever tell it to Joe and Andy. It's not an attack. It's constatation. I'm not alone to think that. I'm not alone to want to help you to make a great LGCS and NCS this year....

cluck
10-05-2016, 18:30
They organisers run the competition, they set the rules, we all agreed to abide by them when we signed up to take part. You are free to express disappointment at a ruling but you are not free to call the organisers abilities into question.

BAM Mewt
10-05-2016, 18:32
They organisers run the competition, they set the rules, we all agreed to abide by them when we signed up to take part. You are free to express disappointment at a ruling but you are not free to call the organisers abilities into question.

Ok, so all is perfect...

Nice

Thank you for this discussion. I loved it

ChoKpic76
10-05-2016, 19:25
Shut up,
you are a community of bad players .
you cry in each round .
poor children return to play pokemon or crash team racing .
SMS do their job, if they say they cheated , that they were found cheating .
That you are to judge their work ?
no respect , you are probably French

BAM Mewt
10-05-2016, 19:29
Shut up,
you are a community of bad players .
you cry in each round .
poor children return to play pokemon or crash team racing .
SMS do their job, if they say they cheated , that they were found cheating .
That you are to judge their work ?
no respect , you are probably French

I'm Citizen of the world dude... I understand what sort of forum it is here ;) Thank you to explain to me =]

Have fun!

cluck
10-05-2016, 19:36
Shut up,
you are a community of bad players .
you cry in each round .
poor children return to play pokemon or crash team racing .
SMS do their job, if they say they cheated , that they were found cheating .
That you are to judge their work ?
no respect , you are probably FrenchTreat this as an official warning. This type of post will NOT be tolerated on here.

ChoKpic76
10-05-2016, 19:37
Good citizen, but explain with you not accept the decision ?

Bealdor
10-05-2016, 19:38
OK that's enough now. We will not tolerate insults towards other members here, no matter how much you disagree with them.
Everybody please return to a civil discussion or we're forced to lock this thread.

ChoKpic76
10-05-2016, 19:41
Treat this as an official warning. This type of post will NOT be tolerated on here.

seriously chuck OMG
the truth is not Tolerated ????????
But the mourner are tolerated ?
jajajajaja

BAM Mewt
10-05-2016, 19:42
Good citizen, but explain with you not accept the decision ?

I accept all staff decision. BAM drivers are not concerned by punishments... But i would like these decisions be more.... easy to understand for all the players... That's all.

I never said nothing about decisions.... Only on the mode of these decisions. I'm the first to tell at SMS to punish my players if they use glitch or cheat...

Bealdor
10-05-2016, 19:43
seriously chuck OMG
the truth is not Tolerated ????????
But the mourner are tolerated ?
jajajajaja



Insulting other members has nothing to do with telling truth.

ChoKpic76
10-05-2016, 19:56
I accept all staff decision. BAM drivers are not concerned by punishments... But i would like these decisions be more.... easy to understand for all the players... That's all.

I never said nothing about decisions.... Only on the mode of these decisions. I'm the first to tell at SMS to punish my players if they use glitch or cheat...

no problem, but I speak for all players , not you personally.
many people no accept the decision and complains sms but
I find that SMS does the job and too many people dare talk about nothing

Rebel Whitey
10-05-2016, 20:13
Please close this thread.

cluck
10-05-2016, 20:16
Please close this thread.This thread will remain open unless personal insults start being thrown around*. A racing team was exluded from the points today and it is only to be expected that people will wish to air their views on that matter. Discussing that is fine but abuse directed at other members and accusations aimed at the organisers of the competition will not be tolerated.


* that is not an invitation.

JohnSchoonsBeard
10-05-2016, 20:35
Could nothing be done to change the remaining track boundaries just for the upcoming time trials (or the 2nd half of the season)? I would happily help test those boundaries in time trial mode to see where for each track there are places where 3 wheels can be got off the track without invalidating the lap or where else there are track exploits.

If changes could be made easily then the SMS guys wouldn't need to make decisions as the track limits would be purely set by the game. In theory any lap allowed by the game would be valid.

It is a flaw that only a few laps can actually score points due to the low number of leaderboard ghost laps stored by the games servers. Can there not be more than 30 lap ghosts stored just for these events? There is no chance of me winning any of these events (top 200 is probably my limit) but I would like to see fair play.

Rebel Whitey
10-05-2016, 20:35
@cluck, I thought that's what you said last week. All was quiet, until Joseph announced proven cheating. It seems like people are looking for excuses to bitch and complain. Tiresome, from where I sit.

cluck
10-05-2016, 20:46
@John - from the quick look I had the other night, there are no tracks left where such a large exploit is possible and the ghosts will show up any wrong-doing during the lap itself. The problem was only because the ghost does not capture the build up to the start of the lap and it was possible to leave the track boundaries to the right of the final corner. I really cannot see it being a problem for the rest of the championship.

There is one track that a similar 'exploit' might appear possible at, which I have already alerted the devs to, but from my tests it provides absolutely no advantage whatsoever compared to exiting the final corner normally. If anything, it is disadvantageous to try and use it as an exploit. Not to mention getting caught will result in being excluded from the results entirely.

cluck
10-05-2016, 20:49
@cluck, I thought that's what you said last week. All was quiet, until Joseph announced proven cheating. It seems like people are looking for excuses to bitch and complain. Tiresome, from where I sit.New evidence was provided to them, which resulted in an entire team being excluded from the championship. It is clear, from 2 of the first 3 posts following Joe's post, that some people wish to voice their concerns and it is only fair that this thread remains open for them to do so.

John Hargreaves
10-05-2016, 21:34
As much as I'm sure there are many that feel this way John, I would request that there are no further posts of this nature. It only serves to potentially inflame the situation.

Thank you.

No worries mate, just expressing dismay that you have to even deal with this, but yeah, fair enough, all it does is wind things up tighter.

Sankyo
11-05-2016, 10:55
Why? I don't want any problem for me or my players. I ask the question, to understand where is the problem. We can't write what are our feelings here? It's Cuba or North Korea?
Indeed you cannot always write what your feelings are, but that has nothing to do with dictatorships and everything with respectful behaviour.


I can, i want to help you, really, and i ever tell it to Joe and Andy. It's not an attack. It's constatation. I'm not alone to think that. I'm not alone to want to help you to make a great LGCS and NCS this year....
I don't see any reason for concluding that SMS needs help. The issue is people cheating, and getting caught. It's about sportsmanship, not about organization or refereeing skills.

JohnSchoonsBeard
11-05-2016, 14:21
@John - from the quick look I had the other night, there are no tracks left where such a large exploit is possible and the ghosts will show up any wrong-doing during the lap itself. The problem was only because the ghost does not capture the build up to the start of the lap and it was possible to leave the track boundaries to the right of the final corner. I really cannot see it being a problem for the rest of the championship.

There is one track that a similar 'exploit' might appear possible at, which I have already alerted the devs to, but from my tests it provides absolutely no advantage whatsoever compared to exiting the final corner normally. If anything, it is disadvantageous to try and use it as an exploit. Not to mention getting caught will result in being excluded from the results entirely.

There were other parts of Laguna Seca where you could get all 4 wheels just off track and not get an invalidation. As an example after turn 1 you could go wide on exit (keeping speed higher throughout that corner) and not invalidate the lap.

Those sort of little areas where the limits aren't quite right could be tidied up. I don't know whether any of those sort of laps were removed but there were definitely some drivers in the top 30 who did that as I followed a couple of their ghosts. If those marginal areas exist now but were tidied up the game could be relied on more reliably to be the judge.

I don't think being caught is that much of a problem for some. They just want to play the time trial. The trouble is if they are having to be removed then eventually we run out of ghosts to give points to so not all places get points like happened before on PC. In the end maybe it's easier to adjudicate manually than to devote any more development time to the game.

cluck
11-05-2016, 16:48
There were other parts of Laguna Seca where you could get all 4 wheels just off track and not get an invalidation. As an example after turn 1 you could go wide on exit (keeping speed higher throughout that corner) and not invalidate the lap.

Those sort of little areas where the limits aren't quite right could be tidied up. I don't know whether any of those sort of laps were removed but there were definitely some drivers in the top 30 who did that as I followed a couple of their ghosts. If those marginal areas exist now but were tidied up the game could be relied on more reliably to be the judge.

I don't think being caught is that much of a problem for some. They just want to play the time trial. The trouble is if they are having to be removed then eventually we run out of ghosts to give points to so not all places get points like happened before on PC. In the end maybe it's easier to adjudicate manually than to devote any more development time to the game.The trouble is, it would require the track limits being adjusted on every track which I suspect isn't going to happen. Running wide within the lap itself will show up in the ghost replay, as I mentioned before, so that picks up anybody running wide in their lap. As for "just want to play the time trial", it is made clear on the main competition page and on this forum at the start of each round that 2 wheels must remain within the 'track' at all times. If people aren't reading the rules for a competition they are entering then I, for one, have no sympathy for them if their laps are disqualified. It might sound harsh, but it's like going into a cricket match as a batsman and wondering why you're sent off for catching the ball instead of hitting it with your bat!

I understand your point and, in an ideal world, the track limits could be varied for time trial, events and races but they aren't like that so the organisers have these manual checks in place after the events to look into any problem laps.

SRT_Chuckno33
11-05-2016, 20:14
Hello Joseph,Andy,

I’m Kenny roosens i’m the creator of the SRT Racing team,and i’m a karting driver this year i have finish 3rd of the CIK-FIA European Championships but thats was not importante.

I write to you because i want to speak with you in a private conversation!

I have a solution for you and the community and for the NVIDIA.

I hope you read my message and you answer.

Best regard,

Kenny roosens!

Joseph Barron
11-05-2016, 21:12
Hello Joseph,Andy,

I’m Kenny roosens i’m the creator of the SRT Racing team,and i’m a karting driver this year i have finish 3rd of the CIK-FIA European Championships but thats was not importante.

I write to you because i want to speak with you in a private conversation!

I have a solution for you and the community and for the NVIDIA.

I hope you read my message and you answer.

Best regard,

Kenny roosens!

Hi Kenny. I'm away on holiday from tomorrow morning, so please send a PM to Andy (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?21-Andy-Tudor) and he will look into it.

JohnSchoonsBeard
11-05-2016, 21:37
The trouble is, it would require the track limits being adjusted on every track which I suspect isn't going to happen. Running wide within the lap itself will show up in the ghost replay, as I mentioned before, so that picks up anybody running wide in their lap. As for "just want to play the time trial", it is made clear on the main competition page and on this forum at the start of each round that 2 wheels must remain within the 'track' at all times. If people aren't reading the rules for a competition they are entering then I, for one, have no sympathy for them if their laps are disqualified. It might sound harsh, but it's like going into a cricket match as a batsman and wondering why you're sent off for catching the ball instead of hitting it with your bat!

I understand your point and, in an ideal world, the track limits could be varied for time trial, events and races but they aren't like that so the organisers have these manual checks in place after the events to look into any problem laps.

Me too cluck. No sympathy for those who are able to cheat. What I meant though was that some of those who might cheat might not actually care too much about the competition but are just looking to have fun and find exploits. My sympathy lies more with those who finish outside the top 30 and have done valid laps but can't score points due to potentially laps where the limits have been exceeded. I'd just like to see a simple system for everyone. . I know track limits were vastly improved before the leaderboard reset. Maybe in Project Cars 2 there could slightly tighter track restrictions for time trials?


It might sound harsh, but it's like going into a cricket match as a batsman and wondering why you're sent off for catching the ball instead of hitting it with your bat!


Urgh, it's cricket man, you wouldn't be "sent off". How crude! You'd be politely given out handled ball (if the opposition appealed). You'd then trot off for a gentle reproach from your captain over a cucumber sandwich about how it's just not cricket....

(when in fact it is) ;)

AlexOki
12-05-2016, 08:33
Cricket, hmm thats true what you say there John, but I can gaurantee you that guy will be heavly fined after the match, wether it be in monetry form or in alcohol and i know if it is the latter the next day is really going to be excruiating for him.

:D

SRT_Chuckno33
12-05-2016, 20:17
Hi Kenny. I'm away on holiday from tomorrow morning, so please send a PM to Andy (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?21-Andy-Tudor) and he will look into it.


Ok i wish you a good holiday.

Kennyroosens