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rosko
08-05-2016, 17:47
Why are lap times so much faster than irl? I should point out that i'm not fast & don't find it easy but some of the times posted in time attack are much quicker than what can be achieved irl. I should also point out that im only using the posted Nordschleife times as reference that can be found online, not the most scientific method but it seems easiest way to compare. I think the handling is spot on but is there too much grip in the game?

John Hargreaves
08-05-2016, 18:00
Why are lap times so much faster than irl? I think the handling is spot on but is there too much grip in the game?

I think there is too much danger of death in the real world. If we could somehow mod reality so that there was no financial penalty, and no actual injury when you come off the track then we are on to a winner.

ayrtonkee
08-05-2016, 18:02
Especially at Nordschleife, some turns are full throttle while in real life the driver has to slow down at that certain turn.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
08-05-2016, 18:14
You mention Nordschleife, are you talking mainly about road cars or racing cars? If you're talking about road cars, bear in mind that road car lap times at the Nordschleife should be always considered "it can go at least this fast" times, and not "this is as fast as it will go". They simply don't have the time or the opportunities (weather IRL can be a real bitch, and on Nords you often have water on some parts of the track and dry on the others), or even a reason to hone Nordschleife times down to the absolute minimum (bragging rights for top Nords times aren't worth dead test drivers, it's not a real race), and especially when magazines like Sport Auto do their tests they often get a car that's using whatever tyres they were delivered with and the driver can only do a few laps around the track, and he can't afford to wreck a review car either. When factories have had racing drivers run their road cars on Nords they've sometimes gone around half a minute faster than Sport Auto's Horst von Saurma managed/bothered with. =)

Overall though there are some things that will have an effect. GT3 cars for example have access to the Soft tyre, which is closer to a GTE racing tyre, the Hard tyre would be closer to a real life GT3 tyre in performance. Road cars have access to fantastic tyres as well, the Softs are almost racing grade, the Mediums are the best road rubber you could actually consider using on the roads, and the Hard/All Weather tyres are STILL top class sports tyres, nothing comparable to normal road tyres on most cars. And they're a little bit too grippy, particularly longitudinally, and the ABS is better than in real life (RL systems often run at 10 Hz or so, ours runs at 600 Hz, and is capable of modulating the grip almost perfectly). Then you can guarantee almost perfect, and perfectly repeatable conditions, with a rubbered in racing track. And you can spend as much time as you want figuring out ways to perfect every corner and hone every setting in the setup, and you have nothing to lose by messing up at all, you can take a totally extreme speed through a corner and cut over a kerb, hoping that you'll manage to land it, because even if you don't you can just try again.

And in the end no simulation is perfectly accurate, there are probably some other exploits you can always find and use that in real life would either be unpractical (like running a setup that suits the car but beats the driver to shit, or a setup that's fast but has a high risk of losing control suddenly in some situations, which you can learn to master in a game because you can afford to wreck a thousand cars while doing it) or just impossible (some games glitch out with certain setup settings, making tyres suddenly grip too much etc., pCARS used to have an issue like this with camber, and it's possible other such issues exist but aren't widely known).

Shadowoff
08-05-2016, 18:34
Nordschleife is pretty close to real life in GT3. Uwe Alzen did once a 6.38 on the Nordschleife in the Z4, while the record in pCars is a 6.34 (I already went a 6.33, but cant do it in TT, cause im just "too" fast and cut the track on some points a little too hard :( ). Also a McLaren (Kevin Estre) did once a 6.30 in the 24h Race (just started to count as he went on and off the Nordschleife and added 1 seconds, with GP track he did a 8.10.9). Thats the next thing. A 8.10.9 on combined Nürburgring, I drive a 8.10.7 (Z4) there. You cant really say that there is such a big difference on the Nordschleife. In my opinion its one of the tracks in pCars which is as closest on the reality.

Alan Dallas
08-05-2016, 18:40
Lets not forget weather conditions can be made perfect in a Simulator. Weather impacts performance and driver ability. Also Fear, IRL will cause you to back down sooner than in a Sim.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
08-05-2016, 19:06
Also Fear, IRL will cause you to back down sooner than in a Sim.I'm slowly starting to think that maybe "fear" isn't the right word. Many drivers have said that fear isn't really an issue after some point, but sanity checks definitely are. Even if they're not scared of crashing they still have to take precautions not to do it, because depending on the car class you're talking about a crash could lead to anything from tens of thousands to multiple millions in damages, and even if you come out of it without a scratch you could well lose your job. The only times I've seen racing drivers look roughly as wild as many of the fastest simmers do on a lap they've been in situations where there isn't quite as much riding on how well they do. Some of the wildest driving from racing drivers I've seen in modern times (leaving aside some heroics like Senna's F1 performances) have been Krumm taking the GT-R Nismo around Nords, and actually Laurent Hurgon taking the Renault Megane 275 Trophy-R around Nords as well. They really didn't seem scared of crashing, and totaling the cars was probably pretty irrelevant as well, compared to totalling a GT racer costing multiple hundreds of thousands.

rosko
08-05-2016, 20:09
Yeah it was the road cars i was looking at but only because i was looking at the list of fastest times & decided to compare. I take on board your points looking at that list i guess is meaningless & the race cars are probably more closer to actual best times. I still think the road cars seem a bit quick? Road 'a' cars are up there with the GT times, I guess the long straight comes into play with the super cars, somebody managed 6.38 in a Ariel Atom v8 its very quick.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
08-05-2016, 22:21
TL;DR: Real life lap times for road cars have huge issues with them that cause them to usually be way off the theoretical capabilities of the cars. pCARS leaderboard times are usually done with the best tyres that aren't even supposed to replicate what tyres these cars are tested with, and can at times improve lap times by over 10 seconds without any other changes. pCARS road tyres are slightly too grippy, but not by much, and the ABS is better than real life systems too.


Yeah it was the road cars i was looking at but only because i was looking at the list of fastest times & decided to compare. I take on board your points looking at that list i guess is meaningless & the race cars are probably more closer to actual best times. I still think the road cars seem a bit quick? Road 'a' cars are up there with the GT times, I guess the long straight comes into play with the super cars, somebody managed 6.38 in a Ariel Atom v8 its very quick.Yeah, with road cars you have to be REALLY careful on what you take seriously, and think in ballparks. A lot of the times are also from magazines like Sport Auto, and you really need to pay attention to what tyres they were using (I've read on several reviews that they had to run the laps with somewhat worn review tyres), what conditions the lap was done in, and still accept that the reviewer doesn't have the opportunity to drive lap after lap to get their time down to absolute minimum. For example the 918 Spyder was driven around by Horst von Saurma for Sport Auto in 7:13, barely 15 seconds quicker than their McLaren 12C time, but Porsche's own drivers did it in 6:57, a good 16 seconds quicker. And if you could guarantee peak conditions and have infinite practice time with infinite amount of fresh tyres and no consequences for occasionally crashing when seeking the absolute limits, they'd probably be able to push under 6:50 eventually. Sport Auto's lap was done in fairly cool conditions (16C air temp with 18C track temp), which might have hurt it, though they did manage to get 6 laps in, and within those six he already improved 17 seconds on his initial time. So yeah, hard limits these times aren't. =)

Another example: The Nissan GT-R driven by Sport Auto went around in 7:36, while the Nissan GT-R Nismo driven by Nissan's house race car driver Krumm went around in 7:08, almost half a minute quicker. I know that the Nismo is upgraded compared to the base car, but a power increase of ~15 bhp, a weight reduction of a few kilos at best, and some minor aerodynamic fiddling (everything apart from the most extreme road cars like the GUMPERT produces at best some tens of kilograms of downforce, including cars like the 911 GT2 RS, not hundreds, the vast majority producing a bit of lift especially at the front) will not cause a half a minute lap time difference. Better tyres could count for a lot of that, going from Michelin Pilot Super Sports to Pilot Sport Cup tyres could well take over 10 seconds off of the time by itself, but Nissan claims that the same type of Dunlop road tyres that the car is delivered with were used for their tests, so it's mostly just that Krumm had an opportunity and the skill required to push the car that much faster. =)

Also talking about the tyres, remember that the top leaderboard times are almost always done with the most grippy tyre option, which is pretty close to a racing compound, and much higher performance than almost any real car is going to be equipped with for the tests you see IRL. And tyres make all the difference, they're the single most important bit that can make you go faster, and the rest of the car mainly has to be able to utilize them (hard suspension won't make you faster by itself, often it'll just reduce grip, but really grippy tyres require fairly stiff suspensions to prevent the body of the car flailing about). On the majority of times the 12C and the 458 have been tested they've ended up with almost identical performance, sometimes the 12C is a bit quicker, other times the 458 is a bit quicker. By standard the 12C is supplied with Pirelli P Zero tyres, the 458 with Michelin Pilot Sport tyres, both roughly equal in performance. Two very noteworthy tests however show great differences, the Top Gear and the Sport Auto ones: On the Top Gear Test Track the 12C was almost 3 seconds quicker with the same driver (though not identical conditions), on the Nordschleife it was 10 seconds quicker with the same driver. A glaring difference? Not 100% sure for Top Gear, but for Sport Auto the 12C was equipped with Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres, which are roughly equivalent to Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres, which offer significantly more grip. Where the 458 was limited to around 1.15 G in the corners on the Pilot Sport tyres, the 12C's P Zero Corsa tyres allowed it to hit in the 1.25 G region, which is a huge step up, and could well be worth 10 seconds or even more around Nordschleife. This grip increase represents a larger difference in cornering capabilities than the difference between the grippiest and least grippy GT3 cars in the game. Not too many real life cars come with P Zero Corsa or Pilot Sport Cup level tyres as an option (mostly reserved only to the highest level of hyper cars), and fewer still come with it as the default tyre.

And the P Zero Corsa, being so rare in real life, is in the terms of Project CARS the Medium tyre option for the road cars, the Soft track tyre is significantly better still. The Pilot Sport or the regular P Zero would be closest to the in-game All Weather tyre (which indeed despite the name is a super high quality sports tyre), with grip levels way below the Medium. So on top of all of the other things we've talked about with how much quicker you can go in a sim because real life doesn't get in the way, the tyres used for the top times on the leaderboards are special tyres that aren't even supposed to be near the level of the tyres these cars are tested with in real life.

All that said, the road tyres have a bit too much grip. Not massively, but still a bit too much. The All Weathers should replicate Pilot Sport or P Zero levels and hit about 1.15 Gs in steady cornering, tops, but it's not difficult to get 1.2 G out of them. I'd say the All Weathers are dangerously close to real life Pilot Sport Cup or P Zero Corsa levels. The Medium tyres, which should be at the Cup/Corsa levels of 1.25 Gs hit 1.3 Gs quite easily as well, so they're a bit too grippy too. They could stand less grip, and it'd be great to get a tyre option that'd be close to a more "normal" sporty tyre and hit about 1.00-1.05 Gs, like Continental SportContact tyres. There was a mod available in the past that introduced tyres at these levels, and it was epic fun, but sadly it doesn't work anymore due to the game being changed in some ways.

And then there's the ABS system, which can be almost perfect in game, keeping the tyres at the peak braking power possible while adjusting at 600 Hz, whereas real systems often work more at 10 Hz and lose quite a bit of maximum performance.

So yeah, plenty of reasons why pCARS lap times for road cars especially are faster than RL times tend to be. There are some issues with too high grip levels in the road tyres, but they're fairly minor compared to how much time you can achieve by virtue of not having to deal with real life constraints.

rosko
08-05-2016, 23:29
Wow what an informative post. Its a shame there is not the option for a more standard sports tyre, I wonder why Pcars have gone in the direction of having a bit more grip. The ABS also why so enhanced is that by design?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 00:15
The road tyres were at various levels during development, at times including hopelessly slippery. I can't say for sure why they ended up a hint too grippy, could be partially because traditionally road cars in sims had way too little, or maybe not massively little but certainly the grip dropped off a cliff once sliding started. Certainly wasn't due to a lack of effort on my part, I went through hundreds of tyre tests trying to find out levels and tested every road car tyre extensively during development, as well as driving them all the time (as you can probably guess by the post, I went through almost every Sport Auto Supertest and pored through tirerack.com's test archives, as well as finding any road car tyre tests with real numbers and not just rating points out there). =)

It's not a massive issue for me, tyres like that do exist after all, you can buy them and put them on your car, they're just not the typical tyres for many of the cars. More than the slightly high grip of the existing tyres I do lament the lack of a normal road tyre though, it'd be fun to have a tyre with about the same grip level as a normal road tyre. Especially the lower end cars like the GT-86 could benefit from it, the car is often delivered with economy tyres similar to something you'd find on a Prius etc., which would be closer to 0.90-0.95 Gs. The high end sports tyres make them feel too grippy and the suspension can also be thrown around a bit by the high accelerations it was never designed to withstand. The mod I mentioned included these kinds of tyres for the GT-86 and it improved the car significantly, too much grip isn't necessarily a good thing. Another fun idea would have been authentic 60s-70s road tyres for the vintage Mustang, Escort, Mercedes and BMW 2002 Turbo (there was a test version at least of these too in the mod). Currently they're running vintage racing tyres, which can hit about 0.95-1.00 G steady during cornering, so they're almost on par with modern low end sports tyres in absolute amount of grip, though obviously they don't handle the same otherwise. I managed to scour old magazines and found tyre tests from the 60s and 70s, and those tyres were just horrible by any modern standards. Even the mid-70s sporty radial tyres that significantly improved grip levels and handling back then could only pull a steady 0.7 Gs, and many barely got over 0.6 Gs. It's not that much more than what modern winter tyres can reach on snow in good conditions. As an example, if a modern 911 GT3 RS with fully road legal and usable Pilot Sport Cup tyres and lateral acceleration capabilities around 1.3 Gs can take a corner at 120 km/h, a 60s-70s road car on the tyres of the day would struggle to get around at 85 km/h. =)

ABS is like that basically because it's a fairly simple system that's tied straight into the physics update. The devs can adjust various aspects of it, one main one being maximum slip allowed, so not all cars are superduper good, but once actually running the ABS checks every physics tick whether the slip is higher than the value that's allowed in the settings, and adjusts braking to get it there where necessary. And since the physics run at 600 Hz the ABS follows that. To get it running at a lower frequency it'd need a separate system that's not directly tied into the main physics tick. Hopefully we'll get that in pCARS 2 now that they have a chance to rewrite systems like these.

Alan Dallas
09-05-2016, 00:56
On ABS Sample rates. Just about every Bosch or LSB(Lucas Sumitomo Brake Inc. aka Kelsey-Hayes depending on the brake tech you're talking to :) ) EHCU systems I've ever worked on since about 2000 uses at least 200Hz sample rate or higher. In the US the DOT requires EHCU systems to use at least a 40Hz sample rate(requirement written in the mid 1980's).

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 01:31
Sample rate, yes, but can they actually effectively adjust the valving etc. at 200 Hz? =)

CPU M Rossi
09-05-2016, 05:26
I would like to add we have access to these tracks 24/7 365/ 366 in leap years
practice makes perfect (or if nothing else a little better)

Alan Dallas
09-05-2016, 08:04
Sample rate, yes, but can they actually effectively adjust the valving etc. at 200 Hz? =)

Actually most EHCU valving systems changed to Proportional valving about a decade ago(in the higher end applications like those from Bosch). The cheapy jobs from TRW still in use on economy boxes still use switched valving however. If memory serves those are switching in the 120Hz range. Been awhile since I had need to know those specs from when I was acquiring my ASE certifications. :)

Leper Messiah
09-05-2016, 08:29
some top informative reading here lads! Good stuff!

Invincible
09-05-2016, 10:25
Actually most EHCU valving systems changed to Proportional valving about a decade ago(in the higher end applications like those from Bosch). The cheapy jobs from TRW still in use on economy boxes still use switched valving however. If memory serves those are switching in the 120Hz range. Been awhile since I had need to know those specs from when I was acquiring my ASE certifications. :)

120 hz is pretty fast, but still far from our 600 hz model. Maybe the pulse rate for the brakes should be limited to a more realistic value in the future (Pcars 2)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 10:47
Would be great to see data that properly showed how many effective changes (ones that actually result in a meaningful amount of change in the braking force applied) of modern ABS systems, all of the ones I've seen in action doing quick braking have been in the tens of Hz range based on the sounds of the tyres, and the visual behavior on the braking graph suggests even slower effective rates of change. Like this example from Toyota:

232860

The actual changes probably occur quicker, but the capability of the system to recognize that it needs to start applying less braking force or more braking force seems to be happening at around 4-5 Hz. Taking a loot at some of my pCARS telemetry sessions the braking curves were essentially smooth curves that didn't zig zag up/down, even with less smoothing applied than in that image, a result of the supremely accurate and fast acting ABS system.

Would indeed be great if we could get a less optimal system for pCARS 2.

eiwhatsup
09-05-2016, 13:17
all I know about Project cars is that in glorious Formula B (the best experience in project cars is obviously achieved through the FB cars) I can settle faster lap times with medium tyres (up to four seconds on some tracks lol, like Silverstone) than with softs. Somebody explain me why such oddity

Bealdor
09-05-2016, 13:19
all I know about Project cars is that in glorious Formula B (the best experience in project cars is obviously achieved through the FB cars) I can settle faster lap times with medium tyres (up to four seconds on some tracks lol, like Silverstone) than with softs. Somebody explain me why such oddity

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?41394-RSR-Revolution-Sim-Racing-Ranked-Races-Every-Week-Signup-Now!&p=1271199&viewfull=1#post1271199

Markus Ott
09-05-2016, 14:28
Maybe we should stop using that "fear" argument and accept that pCARS is just that tiny bit easier to drive on the edge than it would be possible and a bit more forgiving than real life. Add up just 0.1 or 0.2 seconds per turn because of that and at the end of a lap that adds up to around 2 seconds faster lap times in game.

On top of that many (all?) top times on leaderbards were made with setups no real team would use. Physics engine all have glitches and downsides that can be abused to extremes.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 15:29
I'm starting to think that fear is indeed the wrong term to use, but it's not just pCARS, ANY AND ALL simulators will always have ways that allow dedicated drivers to push further than is possible or very importantly practical in real life. For example Grand Prix Legends has demonstrably a lot less grippy tyres than what the F1 teams were running in 1967, making the car more dangerous, difficult and lower performance than the real ones were. Yet people still have pushed them around every track in that game quicker than the real drivers did, while driving cars that were demonstrably worse.

eiwhatsup
09-05-2016, 15:59
Maybe we should stop using that "fear" argument and accept that pCARS is just that tiny bit easier to drive on the edge than it would be possible and a bit more forgiving than real life. i'd say it's easier in real life actually.

Do you use ABS by chance?


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?41394-RSR-Revolution-Sim-Racing-Ranked-Races-Every-Week-Signup-Now!&p=1271199&viewfull=1#post1271199

that explains some things about the yellow ones (soft) like not noticing the block on the wheels when you brake hard and try to steer without ABS. The wheel force feedback doesn't fight against you when that, but it actually works fine with the mediums. Softs are an incomplete model, right?.

Anyway, i think softs in this game, at least formula B i mean are harder to drive with, as wheel imputs must be subtle if you don't wanna end up spinning (no traction control). Medium tyres really really make the difference, as when they get heated allow some real hard turning with the wheel. With a controller it feels the opposite way however (softs better)

wolowizzard
09-05-2016, 16:07
Just to get a comment on the ABS, to get 120 Hz at the actuator, you should sample at least with 240 Hz. And I suppose that increasing the ABS's operating frequency will not increase the performance in a linear way. 120Hz is quite fast, I don't think the frequency of grip changes is that much higher. Maybe 600 Hz is not that much better compared to 120 Hz.

Foofer37
09-05-2016, 17:02
After running this sim for the past 3 months, this is my take: (I'm having a bit of trouble explaining myself with this one...It's difficult to put into words, so bear with me)
As I raise the AI challenge, say from 30 to say 80, I notice that I have to drive wildly, pushing the car beyond what it was meant to handle. This creates a feeling that I am throwing the car around the track in (what is to me) a very unrealistic manner. Yet it seems that when I play with others on-line, this is exactly how many, many people on-line drive. To them, they are fast, perhaps matching some real-world lap time, yet I know that no race car driver actually drives this way. Let's face it, a driver's utmost priority is to get the feel of the car correct. If he has no confidence in the car he will hate it and complain about it all race weekend. He will be slow. No driver mindlessly flings a car around a track trying to meet some lap time with the feeling that "This car feels completely out of control and I drive like a complete wanker, but I'm on the pace so it doesn't matter. Never mind that fact that I almost killed myself on 6 of the 13 turns around this race course. And I watch a replay of myself It looks more like I'm racing a race boat on the ocean rather than a car on a track." What I'm talking about here really comes down to physics. A car has 4 wheels, one in each corner and you steer it around the track. It can only grip so much, turn so quick and handle only so many G's. This to me is where there is a problem in the simulation. Perhaps by making the simulation more real-world realistic it becomes boring to some, I'm not sure, but then we're talking about an arcade game as opposed to a sim. Let's compare it to a flight sim. An aircraft can only perform to certain limits. If you were to simulate those limits realistically, you have what you would have. If you push beyond that, the physics become unrealistic and you are no longer simulating real-world physics. I don't mean this to be harsh towards the developers here in any way. They have done a truly outstanding job! But my take is as I am saying: My opinion here: If PCars were to be simulated more precisely, the cars would need to be driven more slowly in the game to be more realistic. The limits are much less in real life than what they currently are in the sim.Loss of grip would occur sooner. You would need to take more care in how you steer the car around the race track. In my opinion, this would move things in a more realistic direction thus making it even more enjoyable. To feel that I am flinging a car around a track is not really that much fun.
This is the main reason I like to race against the AI at a much lower number. Even as low as 30-40, because this is where it feels more like real life to me. If I drove like I have to with the AI at 80, flinging the car around the track, my tires would be gone in 3 laps in real life. No race car driver drives like that and does well. There's an old saying which I believe in: You must go slow to go fast.
I really wish PCars captured this more. Anyway, that my take. Thanks. :D

AbeWoz
09-05-2016, 17:24
Well considering that pCARS has had feedback/input from a variety of professional race drivers/teams across many different platforms, I would have to politely disagree with you.
I am no where near as fast as some drivers on this game, but I race with AI at 95-100 and never feel out of control with any car.

It takes time and practice to get the car setup correctly, and to learn the circuits. The only time I feel like I'm throwing the car is if its a track I've never driven and I'm trying to go 100% right out of the gate.

Foofer37
09-05-2016, 17:25
Just to add something additional here to better make my point. (Thanks :D) If you watch racing on TV, say GT3, you will notice that once turn one at the start of the race is survived and then the yellow flag brought out long enough to clear all the debris from the dopes in the field that were intent on ending their race weekend (for themselves, and their team) in the first 12 seconds of the race, and an additional 5 laps of yellow that no one ever knows the reason for, the field then basically goes single-file. The first car in the lead with everyone basically following him around the race course.! This is reality!
It's not cars changing position, overtaking 6 cars every lap! There is overtaking, but not to the degree that I notice in a sim such as PCars.Sorry to share bad news, but the only major overtaking I see is in a multi-class race where an LMP1 car is launching past several GT cars each lap. In same-class racing overtaking opportunities come up when the car in front makes a mistake etc. (Outbrakes himself, runs wide etc. Or when, through persistence and patience the car behind gets close enough, at the right corner, through the great skill of really late braking cuts underneath the driver in front and masterfully slips by. How often does he do that? Once every few laps perhaps?! That's realistic. I have seen however, in some PCars on-line videos where people have it right. It seems to me also that these are the ones that are driving the slower cars! BMW M3, GT4 cars etc. I think they are comfortable there, not because they can't handle the faster cars, but because it makes for more realistic racing. It feels more correct to them, therefore more enjoyable. The GT3 cars on up to the faster ones get too unrealistic, I feel. What's your take? :D

AbeWoz
09-05-2016, 17:30
i feel that i disagree with you 100% and all the races i've been involved with require patience and skill to overtake. then again the AI is at a much higher level.
i primarily run gt3 cars, and the corvette at that matter so i'm usually fighting the AI in the middle of the pack.

Markus Ott
09-05-2016, 17:35
I think you captured that right, Foofer37. But you have to accept that pCARS wasn't made for the hardcore sim market, most casual racers out there who drive pCARS don't know how to drive race cars and how and why to approach a mechanical car differently than an aerodynamical car. pCARS makes sure even those guys who throw a car around a track can still have their fun, but that's exactly why I said it is a bit too forgiving. Nevertheless I wouldn't say you can't be fast if you drive cars the correct way.
Also consider that the AI is very different from class to class. I had some classes where I had no problem getting Pole against 100% AI driving it smooth and clean.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 17:35
Personally I disagree, with most cars I barely have to push seriously to beat AI at 80, and can keep the car very stable, and often my most stable laps are my quickest ones. Even on 100 the AI isn't that difficult to keep up with in many classes/tracks, and I wish we could raise the level higher. Also just because I'm perhaps sliding a bit (which is required to get maximum performance out of all tyres, even real racing cars when driven as fast as possible are essentially sliding through nearly all corners, just not very obviously when looked from the outside, but definitely felt by the driver) doesn't mean I'm not in control or don't trust the car, in fact I can only do that when I do trust the car. A 100% planted car that doesn't slip at all isn't a racing car, it's a tank. =)

You can drive a very aggressive and messy slow lap and a very smooth and tidy fast lap, and vice versa, it's not limited to one or the other. And it's like that in real life too, some drivers say that when they really want to go fast (like for example in qualifying) they need to abuse the car somewhat to get there, while others say the opposite. There are many ways to skin a cat. =)

Also during testing the main thing that the professional race car drivers praised about the game was that for the first time the cars felt like they had similar amounts of grip as the real cars, whereas in all sims before that they had felt like the cars were way too difficult on the limit and didn't have that same feeling of comfort and grip that their real life racing cars did. That was their chief message every time: Racing cars aren't that difficult to drive quickly, and they're quite comfortable on the limit in most cases, there's no sense in making a car difficult to drive. Even the old quote from Henrik Roos (FIA GT driver in the mid 2000s, one of the SimBin founders) that GT cars are comfortable on the limit and can even be drifted comfortably (though it's slower and ruins tyres) was confirmed by a couple of the pro drivers taking part in development when I asked them.

There are some issues though that allow too aggressive tactics to work for too long in pCARS. One is tyre wear, it's not fast enough when slipping around on many cars (it's super fast on others though), and while we do have flatspotting in the engine it should probably be quite a bit more sudden. The wear rates overall are a bit on the conservative side IMO. Another is that we really don't have to worry about tyres over a weekend, where a real life team GT3 team might be limited to 4 sets of tyres for the whole weekend in some series we might as well blow through 4 sets per session. If we actually had a limited number of tyre sets that we had to stretch through a whole weekend it'd make super aggressive driving less worth it.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 17:39
But you have to accept that pCARS wasn't made for the hardcore sim marketUmmm, yes, yes it was. Where did you get the idea that it wasn't? =)

The hardcore sim racers were definitely part of the audience that was in mind when the game was developed, but that doesn't meant that everyone else should be forgotten at the same time, and neither does it mean that cars need to be made excessively difficult, especially when the main thing real racing drivers always said about previous sims was that they were too difficult, too slippery, too dangerous.

Not saying that everything about the game's handling in every class of cars is perfect, but it wasn't specifically dumbed down either. They would have had a much easier time making something that was just fun to hoon around with, but instead they poured a ton of effort into simulating things.

Markus Ott
09-05-2016, 17:41
Actually tyres "slip" all the time, even when driving straight forward, Jussi :)

Besides that I see no use in discussing the realism of a game that was released already a year ago, it's a neverending story between yey and ney sayers.

beetes_juice
09-05-2016, 17:42
I think you captured that right, Foofer37. But you have to accept that pCARS wasn't made for the hardcore sim market, most casual racers out there who drive pCARS don't know how to drive race cars and how and why to approach a mechanical car differently than an aerodynamical car. pCARS makes sure even those guys who throw a car around a track can still have their fun, but that's exactly why I said it is a bit too forgiving. Nevertheless I wouldn't say you can't be fast if you drive cars the correct way.
Also consider that the AI is very different from class to class. I had some classes where I had no problem getting Pole against 100% AI driving it smooth and clean.

Just outta curiosity (troll hat off), care to elaborate on the bold?

Markus Ott
09-05-2016, 17:46
As stated in my last post: no. It's even totally off topic.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-05-2016, 17:46
Actually tyres "slip" all the time, even when driving straight forward, Jussi :)

Besides that I see no use in discussing the realism of a game that was released already a year ago, it's a neverending story between yey and ney sayers.I know, tyres only generate forces when slipping, but usually it confuses people too much if they don't know it beforehand. So I tend to reserve the term slip for situations that are significantly high in the slipcurve. =)

konnos
09-05-2016, 17:46
Just to add something additional here to better make my point. (Thanks :D) If you watch racing on TV, say GT3, you will notice that once turn one at the start of the race is survived and then the yellow flag brought out long enough to clear all the debris from the dopes in the field that were intent on ending their race weekend (for themselves, and their team) in the first 12 seconds of the race, and an additional 5 laps of yellow that no one ever knows the reason for, the field then basically goes single-file. The first car in the lead with everyone basically following him around the race course.! This is reality!
It's not cars changing position, overtaking 6 cars every lap! There is overtaking, but not to the degree that I notice in a sim such as PCars.Sorry to share bad news, but the only major overtaking I see is in a multi-class race where an LMP1 car is launching past several GT cars each lap. In same-class racing overtaking opportunities come up when the car in front makes a mistake etc. (Outbrakes himself, runs wide etc. Or when, through persistence and patience the car behind gets close enough, at the right corner, through the great skill of really late braking cuts underneath the driver in front and masterfully slips by. How often does he do that? Once every few laps perhaps?! That's realistic. I have seen however, in some PCars on-line videos where people have it right. It seems to me also that these are the ones that are driving the slower cars! BMW M3, GT4 cars etc. I think they are comfortable there, not because they can't handle the faster cars, but because it makes for more realistic racing. It feels more correct to them, therefore more enjoyable. The GT3 cars on up to the faster ones get too unrealistic, I feel. What's your take? :D

I generally disagree with you, but here is the problem to what you are saying. If you go in an online race, especially a public lobby, there is no guarantee to the skill level of those players. Even when qualifying ends, the gap between the times can be considerable. And this is where the problems you are describing begin. Erratic driving, not being able to take corners consistently, probably not know what a defence is and when they need to back off. And then you will see many overtakes, spin-outs etc. The real life drivers that make it to the race are very close in terms of driving skill and leave very little room to overtake and don't make errors that easily. behind the monitor, who knows, that person may have spilt his coffee on his legs or his cat is getting between his legs and the wheel.

So what i am getting at is, your problem seems to be the online system, which I generally agree, and not the actual easiness of driving. Best solution for you is to enter a decent racing league and see how that will improve your experience.

Leper Messiah
09-05-2016, 17:55
How about this:

Anyone watch BTCC at Thruxton? Does ANY sim fully emulate conditions that could cause catastrophic tyre failure? Does any sim emulate Tyres being damaged by extreme kerb riding? AFAIK none do, thus gamers can push in more or less optimal conditions lap after lap after lap after lap.

I wonder how many of those "fast" laps at the top was bracketed by crap lap times. The CRUCIAL aspect of REAL racing IMO is CONSISTANCY, and in changing conditions that no game properly emulates.

Sims are a LONG LONG LOOOOOOOOOONG way from reality.

rosko
09-05-2016, 18:03
Ummm, yes, yes it was. Where did you get the idea that it wasn't? =)

The hardcore sim racers were definitely part of the audience that was in mind when the game was developed, but that doesn't meant that everyone else should be forgotten at the same time, and neither does it mean that cars need to be made excessively difficult, especially when the main thing real racing drivers always said about previous sims was that they were too difficult, too slippery, too dangerous.

Not saying that everything about the game's handling in every class of cars is perfect, but it wasn't specifically dumbed down either. They would have had a much easier time making something that was just fun to hoon around with, but instead they poured a ton of effort into simulating things.

The Pcars simcade argument is pretty frustrating, if Pcars is really more simcade then why would they have such complex tyre models, handling & ffb. Yet i read it all the time in reviews, I wonder if its just the fact that sims like AC you have to take the corner slower so is therefore regarded as more simulation.

Sankyo
09-05-2016, 18:05
The Pcars simcade argument is pretty frustrating, if Pcars is really more simcade then why would they have such complex tyre models, handling & ffb. Yet i read it all the time in reviews, I wonder if its just the fact that sims like AC you have to take the corner slower so is therefore regarded as more simulation.

The main argument is that it's an AAA title so in order to make it playable for the console players they dumbed the game/physics/realism down. All the rest is marketing.

Combined with the already discussed idea still present in many sim racer heads that real race cars are difficult to drive, the conclusion that pCARS isn't a true sim is obvious.

beetes_juice
09-05-2016, 18:09
As stated in my last post: no. It's even totally off topic.

Arn't we talking about realistic lap times in here? Games overall simulation/realism seems on topic for this thread.

F1_Racer68
09-05-2016, 18:19
The Pcars simcade argument is pretty frustrating, if Pcars is really more simcade then why would they have such complex tyre models, handling & ffb. Yet i read it all the time in reviews, I wonder if its just the fact that sims like AC you have to take the corner slower so is therefore regarded as more simulation.

It's more likely a case of everyone has their favorite and if the competition isn't exactly like their favorite then the competition is "simcade". It's called "fanboy syndrome".

I've been around for a long, long, long, long time. I've been playing racing games/sims since some of the earliest ones hit the street (anyone remember the original Pole Position or Monaco GP (I mean the original early 80's arcade games)). Every racing game that has come along and called itself a sim has had very good and very poor aspects to them. Usually the poor aspects were the result of some technology limitation.

Of all of them, pCARS has so far felt the closest to real life for me. It's not perfect. No computer/console game ever will be a perfect representation of real life, but it does come pretty close.

I know one of the main complaints "haters and naysayers" have about pCARS is the FFB, but if they ever pay attention to their real world cars they would have a serious wake up. No, you DON'T feel rumble strips in your steering wheel. You feel those in the seat of your pants from the chassis. PCARS is the first sim to NOT include fake forces in the wheel and this threw a lot of people off.

It's things like this that lead some to call it "simcade" compared to other games. In reality, they are ALL "simcade" since they are all just a video game in the end.

Schnizz58
09-05-2016, 19:01
Just to add something additional here to better make my point. (Thanks :D) If you watch racing on TV, say GT3, you will notice that once turn one at the start of the race is survived and then the yellow flag brought out long enough to clear all the debris from the dopes in the field that were intent on ending their race weekend (for themselves, and their team) in the first 12 seconds of the race, and an additional 5 laps of yellow that no one ever knows the reason for, the field then basically goes single-file. The first car in the lead with everyone basically following him around the race course.! This is reality!
It's not cars changing position, overtaking 6 cars every lap! There is overtaking, but not to the degree that I notice in a sim such as PCars.Sorry to share bad news, but the only major overtaking I see is in a multi-class race where an LMP1 car is launching past several GT cars each lap. In same-class racing overtaking opportunities come up when the car in front makes a mistake etc. (Outbrakes himself, runs wide etc. Or when, through persistence and patience the car behind gets close enough, at the right corner, through the great skill of really late braking cuts underneath the driver in front and masterfully slips by. How often does he do that? Once every few laps perhaps?! That's realistic. I have seen however, in some PCars on-line videos where people have it right. It seems to me also that these are the ones that are driving the slower cars! BMW M3, GT4 cars etc. I think they are comfortable there, not because they can't handle the faster cars, but because it makes for more realistic racing. It feels more correct to them, therefore more enjoyable. The GT3 cars on up to the faster ones get too unrealistic, I feel. What's your take? :D
I think there is a lot more parity among professional race car drivers in the same class than there is between a field of random online sim racers. So naturally there is going to be less passing. That said, I watched the Blancpain Sprint race from Brands Hatch last night and there was tons of overtaking.

Foofer37
09-05-2016, 20:29
Thanks for all the feedback, for sure. Good stuff. I'm sure no one has taken my comments the wrong way as if to say that PCars has major problems. No way! It is indeed fantastic. And I also agree that it is the best out there. I thank Ian and crew for putting features such as adjustable AI (0-100) in the sim! This really is a wonderful feature/option. I truly love PCars and am thankful for it. I'm simply trying to give constructive feedback. With PCars 2 coming I think it is a very valuable thing to give feedback such as I did so that perhaps the developers will take these things into consideration, if indeed they are valid and make PCars 2 even better. Ian Bell, thank you. WMD team, thank you. We appreciate you guys very much.:D

eiwhatsup
10-05-2016, 06:50
Just outta curiosity (troll hat off), care to elaborate on the bold?he didn't want to answer me as well. It's obvious he uses ABS at the very least, and probably other assists too. It's the only way to understand why he said such thing

cluck
10-05-2016, 08:27
he didn't want to answer me as well. It's obvious he uses ABS at the very least, and probably other assists too. It's the only way to understand why he said such thingIt's not at all obvious. Just because somebody doesn't want to reply, doesn't mean they are automatically 'guilty' of what you are asking them (or suggesting). In this instance, I suspect Markus is not replying as he knows it is a highly contentious topic which usually results in threads being locked, with polar opinions :).

To quote Marcus himself


it's a neverending story between yey and ney sayers.

That's how I read it anyway :)

Sankyo
10-05-2016, 08:30
The only thing is that if you don't want to discuss a topic, you also shouldn't post a statement on that topic with no or demonstrably wrong arguments :)

cluck
10-05-2016, 09:08
The only thing is that if you don't want to discuss a topic, you also shouldn't post a statement on that topic with no or demonstrably wrong arguments :)There is that too of course :)

eiwhatsup
10-05-2016, 12:28
yeah blah blah, but the only way to stae that project cars handling is forgiving, when it's widely known to be right the opposite thing, then the only explanation possible is that he, at the very least uses ABS. Period. Now you may resume with your political correctness

Sankyo
10-05-2016, 12:47
yeah blah blah, but the only way to stae that project cars handling is forgiving, when it's widely known to be right the opposite thing,
That's a statement of fact, too, without any proof. So in fact it's not a fact, but only an opinion as it is.


then the only explanation possible is that he, at the very least uses ABS. Period.
I bet there are more explanations possible, like driving style, driving skill, etc. Proof is needed (again) when making such statements, otherwise you're only accusing people of things based on gut feeling.


Now you may resume with your political correctness
No need for such inflammatory comments.

F1_Racer68
10-05-2016, 12:54
That's a statement of fact, too, without any proof. So in fact it's not a fact, but only an opinion as it is.


I bet there are more explanations possible, like driving style, driving skill, etc. Proof is needed (again) when making such statements, otherwise you're only accusing people of things based on gut feeling.


No need for such inflammatory comments.

BINGO! While I am far from a professional driver, I did learn to drive long before ABS was available in anything other than a high end Mercedes. Driving pCARS without ABS works just fine thank you very much. It comes down to driver, not aids.

It sounds more like someone here is projecting their own weaknesses onto others, or at least onto pCARS. Just because you find pCARS handling unmanageable without aids doesn't mean others do. Driving style, and technique are far more likely the cause than any use of aids. I see it online all the time. Even with ABS most drivers can't seem to find the brakes/braking point for turn 1. No amount of driver aid will help fix that.

Leper Messiah
10-05-2016, 18:32
Can't remember if anyones mentioned this as well, we should NOT forget that we can utterly abuse the vehicles in most games, there's no chance anything but the most basic component failure is simulated in even the "so called" "hardcore" sims. That in itself allows people to drive FAR faster and more aggressively than a real driver who HAS to have half an eye on the physical condition of the vehicle. Over at Sector 3 forums there's an interesting discussion about the gearboxes and how they can be abused and that R3E is a bit too forgiving in that one area alone. I'm pretty certain (correct me if I'm wrong) PCARS doesn't simulate gearbox failure?




BINGO! While I am far from a professional driver, I did learn to drive long before ABS was available in anything other than a high end Mercedes. Driving pCARS without ABS works just fine thank you very much. It comes down to driver, not aids.

It sounds more like someone here is projecting their own weaknesses onto others, or at least onto pCARS. Just because you find pCARS handling unmanageable without aids doesn't mean others do. Driving style, and technique are far more likely the cause than any use of aids. I see it online all the time. Even with ABS most drivers can't seem to find the brakes/braking point for turn 1. No amount of driver aid will help fix that.

yup I agree too. In reality I use all the aids I can in my car, but in a game I turn it all off! I actually realise that in itself is not realistic if the real car has the aid...but I like the extra personal challenge.....even though I'm crap. ;)

F1_Racer68
10-05-2016, 23:13
I am set for REAL aids only because my personal preference and goal is to keep things as realistic as possible. Can I drive without the aids? Sure. I just don't want to when the car is equipped with them IRL.

Once again, that comes down to style and choice.

As for gearbox failures in pCARS.... I believe the game had intended to simulate them, and I have experienced lengthier pit stops due to a "gearbox issue" according to Ben's voice, but the gearbox has never outright failed. I suspect it is one of those items that just had to end up on the cutting room floor. Maybe it will make it into the Director's Cut edition.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-05-2016, 23:18
I definitely remember situations where I've had difficulties in getting into and out of gears later on in a session, I can only attribute that to transmission damage.

Alan Dallas
11-05-2016, 03:39
Just to get a comment on the ABS, to get 120 Hz at the actuator, you should sample at least with 240 Hz. And I suppose that increasing the ABS's operating frequency will not increase the performance in a linear way. 120Hz is quite fast, I don't think the frequency of grip changes is that much higher. Maybe 600 Hz is not that much better compared to 120 Hz.

I know, my reply is a bit outdated/late, but... Sample rate with most modern EHCU's is way higher than the operating freq. So your observation would be correct. :) At the end of the day the ABS's job is to keep wheel's rolling, not let them block. I abuse the hell out of ABS systems. Even IRL. :D

Leper Messiah
11-05-2016, 08:01
I am set for REAL aids only because my personal preference and goal is to keep things as realistic as possible. Can I drive without the aids? Sure. I just don't want to when the car is equipped with them IRL.

Once again, that comes down to style and choice.

As for gearbox failures in pCARS.... I believe the game had intended to simulate them, and I have experienced lengthier pit stops due to a "gearbox issue" according to Ben's voice, but the gearbox has never outright failed. I suspect it is one of those items that just had to end up on the cutting room floor. Maybe it will make it into the Director's Cut edition.

It's weird I'm not a brilliant driver yet I drive without aids on at all. Usually in games I go for the easier options....I flummox myself there!


I definitely remember situations where I've had difficulties in getting into and out of gears later on in a session, I can only attribute that to transmission damage.

Sounds like R3E then, damage: yes, outright failure: no

Once again I'm reminded of racing legends, IIRC they were going to emulate all the mechanicals so you could have a piston fail etc etc......epic scale of their vision! I'd LOVE to see SMS tackle that!

konnos
11-05-2016, 10:47
I think the main problem with simulating such a thing is that every session is a fresh car. At what % does a failure start to feel realistic? After how many races would it be "acceptable" for an equipment failure? If your system is based on RNG, you could have 5 races back to back where your gearbox failed or you blew a gasket. Of course, in the automotive world that would be proposterous, there are so many inspections that it is difficult for something to go wrong. Would it be realistic if a car per race had to retire due to whatever mechanical failure?

My point is, that in theory it sounds good. But if you wanted to simulate it in a believable way, I think you would have people complaining that they fail too often and others not encountering a failure in most of their racing sessions. On the whole it would be numerically correct (%) but in actual experience it would be weird and probably unfair.

Another way this could be tackled with is that you could have a (whatever) chance for each mechanical failure, depending on the length of your whole driving career, not per race.

Shadowoff
11-05-2016, 11:59
Sounds like R3E then, damage: yes, outright failure: no

Once again I'm reminded of racing legends, IIRC they were going to emulate all the mechanicals so you could have a piston fail etc etc......epic scale of their vision! I'd LOVE to see SMS tackle that!

In new cars (like GT3) you can feel it if you drive something like 6 hours races. I did that once around Spa with LMP1, LMP2 and myself in GTE (Aston Martin). After 4 hours I was half a second slower on fresh tires. Normally I should be faster, after 4 hours is more grip on track, the engine is warm and all kind of damage been repaired, but I recognized that I shifted slightly slower. As I went to the pit I saw that I didnt repaired my engine/gearbox in pit strategy. After I turned it on everything been fine and I drive some new best times.
You can feel it even better in old cars without automatic clutch. Take the Zakspeed for a 2 hour run at Nordschleife and dont repair your engine/gearbox. There you can really feel it.

cluck
11-05-2016, 12:10
I suspect most of that will be 'engine damage'.

I don't know if gearbox damage is exposed to external telemetry apps as a separate entity, but that's the easiest way of seeing if it is being modelled. Of course, if it's lumped into engine damage as a single thing then there's no way of knowing.

As for random failures, that is always the problem with trying to simulate a failure. What constitutes 'real'? From a gameplay perspective, imagine your gearbox fails 3 hours into a 4 hour race just because 'your number came up' in the random failure code. No logic behind the failure, just 'bad luck'. If it is available as an option in the game - something like "Random Damage On/Off" - then that's fine, as people will know they can expect a random failure. But coding in the logic for individual parts failing? You just can't do that without some element of randomness.

As with the AI and DNF debate, what constitutes an acceptable number of failures? How much fun is it to race by yourself when all the other cars have randomly failed? It's a tricky line to walk and, personally, I'd rather see no random failures at all. Wear and tear is fine, provided it is realistic. But a straight failure because the game randomly drew your number from the "unlucky!" deck? No thanks.

There is also the point at which you have to decide :-
a) Do you want to experience every last nuance of what it's like to be a racing driver, including these frustrations
or
b) Do you want to have fun and accept that not every tiny detail of the real world can be modelled perfectly

I always favour b), but that's just me :).

Shadowoff
11-05-2016, 12:15
I suspect most of that will be 'engine damage'.

I don't know if gearbox damage is exposed to external telemetry apps as a separate entity, but that's the easiest way of seeing if it is being modelled. Of course, if it's lumped into engine damage as a single thing then there's no way of knowing.

As for random failures, that is always the problem with trying to simulate a failure. What constitutes 'real'? From a gameplay perspective, imagine your gearbox fails 3 hours into a 4 hour race just because 'your number came up' in the random failure code. No logic behind the failure, just 'bad luck'. If it is available as an option in the game - something like "Random Damage On/Off" - then that's fine, as people will know they can expect a random failure. But coding in the logic for individual parts failing? You just can't do that without some element of randomness.

As with the AI and DNF debate, what constitutes an acceptable number of failures? How much fun is it to race by yourself when all the other cars have randomly failed? It's a tricky line to walk and, personally, I'd rather see no random failures at all. Wear and tear is fine, provided it is realistic. But a straight failure because the game randomly drew your number from the "unlucky!" deck? No thanks.

There is also the point at which you have to decide :-
a) Do you want to experience every last nuance of what it's like to be a racing driver, including these frustrations
or
b) Do you want to have fun and accept that not every tiny detail of the real world can be modelled perfectly

I always favour b), but that's just me :).

A & B :) Youre right, there should be a "random mechanical failures" button. If there would, I would choose "A". But now I would definetly choose "B". I like to have a sim as close as possible to real life.

Roger Prynne
11-05-2016, 12:34
Yeah I think gearbox and engine are tied in together.

232949

cluck
11-05-2016, 12:36
Cheers Roger :)

Schnizz58
11-05-2016, 14:49
I think you're right, cluck & Roger. Here's the relevant part of the API:


// Car damage
u8 sAeroDamage; // 456
u8 sEngineDamage; // 457


As you can see there is no separate transmission damage value.

F1_Racer68
11-05-2016, 16:20
I for one want it to be as realistic as possible. With that said, I prefer to have the damage related to something controllable, such as my driving.

This is especially true for endurance races (anything over 2 hours). If I drive like an idiot and don't look after my equipment then the game should punish me for it. The same should be true for the AI. If an AI car continues to abuse the curbs and run roughshod over the grass (as I have seen in some classes), then that car should suffer some kind of tire or suspension failure.

The same should be true for me. If I abuse the suspension/tires I should see failures. If I frequently abuse the brakes, I should have a brake failure. Same with the gearbox, etc., etc.

It's one of many things on my "Ultimate Sim Wish List".

Leper Messiah
12-05-2016, 08:19
As with the AI and DNF debate, what constitutes an acceptable number of failures? How much fun is it to race by yourself when all the other cars have randomly failed? It's a tricky line to walk and, personally, I'd rather see no random failures at all. Wear and tear is fine, provided it is realistic. But a straight failure because the game randomly drew your number from the "unlucky!" deck? No thanks.



ah heh, had this in Moto GP 2015, I'm running full damage against sim ai.....I'd busted a gut to get to 3rd in a Moto 3 race at Barca leaders a couple of seconds ahead, caught up with Kent and Oliveira....tried a few moves for a lap or so, then 1/2 way into the race I had a "technical failure" and the bike stopped......"noooooooooo" was my first reaction, then I shrugged 'twas an awesome race up to that point and loaded up Le Mans to practise. :) I hasten to add I'd done MANY full season in all the classes without damage first. Now I want the full experience. Be good to have the choice!

RomKnight
12-05-2016, 10:51
As for random failures, that is always the problem with trying to simulate a failure. What constitutes 'real'? From a gameplay perspective, imagine your gearbox fails 3 hours into a 4 hour race just because 'your number came up' in the random failure code. No logic behind the failure, just 'bad luck'..

Tell WEC LMP1 teams this year about bad luck :D Not about gearboxes but Those hybrid systems... hell even Audi already had more problems this year than the 2 before combined :D (not counting, just making a point :) )

If this continues I tell you that we face the risk of having both Rebellions on the podium at Le Mans :D (now that would be something)

Foofer37
12-05-2016, 14:08
Hybrid systems are rubbish. Wish it would not be a part of racing. Terrible. Absolutely hate it.

RomKnight
12-05-2016, 16:46
Well... engines were like that once. To finish Le Mans you'd have to take care of them, a.e., because they would be more prone to die than the drivers crash. Thanks to competition you now have pretty much reliable engines everywhere.

It will be the same with hybrids or any new tech brands can come up with. And where better place to test and push the limits than on a race track? This is how problems are discovered and corrected.

So I can't agree with you :) Foofer37

graveltrap
12-05-2016, 17:20
Hybrid systems are rubbish. Wish it would not be a part of racing. Terrible. Absolutely hate it.

LMP1H cars are simply astonishing, the way the accelerate out of corners thanks to hybrid power is incredible, and the racing the hybrid systems has lead to has been amazing, different systems last year and the way energy is harvested and deployed this year. The only thing missing is the noise, but that just makes what your are watching seem so effortless.

Foofer37
13-05-2016, 19:15
Hmm, not into it. The cars are getting so fast that it's starting to look silly. The tech is so overly complex as well. There's almost nothing to watch anymore except blurs going by. All you can do is keep checking stats to have any idea what's going on. Looks like all of racing is going the way of F1. Now the most boring series going. Ah, the good ol'e days.

iPlay
14-05-2016, 14:22
Do you really think racing was good in the good ol'e days? Look at endurance in the 90s, it was so lame, look at endurance in the early 2000, Audi, audi and audi? The racing is interesting when there is multiple manufacturer (1966-1975 ; 1985-1991/2) it has nothing to do with noise. Just watch how boring were the race in the early year of 2000, but hey the noise was good ! Look at endurance race since 2012 and the begining of the hybrid era ... every race is absolutely amazing ! I'm tired of this good ol'e days syndrome, yeah the noise were good, better than what we have today? I think it's personal opinion, but please the racing in this past few year at least in endurance is one of the best we ever have.

Foofer37
14-05-2016, 14:49
Yes it was great in those days. You haven't been paying attention. Big turbos, manual shifting no TC. It was the driver that keep the car on the track. Not the suit behind the pit wall.
Going the direction you're talking about eventually leads to Gran Turismo's Red Bull fan car. :D 300 mph around corners, maybe 6-7 G's etc. Stupid. To me it just looks absurd and childish.
I have no interest in that. Just my opinion though. I'm glad we have PCars that still represents real cars and real racing. I hope it stays that way. Thanks.:D

konnos
14-05-2016, 15:10
It may be absurd compared to other classes, but it's still good racing and there is still a person behind it, don't get me wrong though, I want less assists too. But that doesn't mean the racing is less "legit" because of this. Understandably, this kind of racing is not good for all tracks and that is where the shame is.

hkraft300
14-05-2016, 17:27
Going the direction you're talking about eventually leads to Gran Turismo's Red Bull fan car. :D 300 mph around corners, maybe 6-7 G's etc. Stupid.

Didn't the ACO put in regs to slow the LMP1 cars, reduce grip with skinnier tyres and what not, to maintain ~3:30 lap time?
Plus the fuel flow limits and aero restrictions... (F1 included, though some wild aero changes are coming 2017 apparently).

Don't see how its going the way of the fan car. Chapparal's fan car got banned. So did Brabham's. Then Newey's blown diffusers...

Do agree that some legendary machinery have, and more must be immortalised in highly accurate digital copies and keep them roaring on.

Too many are becoming garaged investments and not seeing historic competitions enough.

Edit: if you hadn't noticed, big turbos have made a huge comeback in racing. Just with some fluid dynamics and computer voodoo they're made to work properly.

Foofer37
14-05-2016, 20:45
Don't see how its going the way of the fan car. Chapparal's fan car got banned. So did Brabham's. Then Newey's blown diffusers...


Edit: if you hadn't noticed, big turbos have made a huge comeback in racing. Just with some fluid dynamics and computer voodoo they're made to work properly.

It's going the way of the Gran Turismo Red Bull car as far as it's over the top, silly speed and performance. Not whether or not it uses a fan. I only mention the fan so you know which car I'm talking about.
Actually what's really absurd about it is that the fan car was banned because of it's unfair performance advantage. But let's face it, as the speeds increase there will need to be changes made to allow the grip to keep up with the engine/s power. And how they get away with 2 power units is beyond me. It's outside the scope of the rules. Only one power unit is allowed. But hey, if it goes with the whole save the planet thingie, then breaking the rules is ok. :D So if all this ok, then the return of the fan might not be far behind.

hkraft300
15-05-2016, 00:54
It's going the way of the Gran Turismo Red Bull car as far as it's over the top, silly speed and performance. Not whether or not it uses a fan. I only mention the fan so you know which car I'm talking about.
Actually what's really absurd about it is that the fan car was banned because of it's unfair performance advantage. But let's face it, as the speeds increase there will need to be changes made to allow the grip to keep up with the engine/s power. And how they get away with 2 power units is beyond me. It's outside the scope of the rules. Only one power unit is allowed. But hey, if it goes with the whole save the planet thingie, then breaking the rules is ok. :D So if all this ok, then the return of the fan might not be far behind.

Aside from next year's GTE and F1 changes, the overall trend has been to cap and slow LMP1 and F1 speeds the last 10+ years. That was my main point, not the fan car stuff.

The rules are allowing hybrid power trains: multiple motors (IC and electric) + energy recovery methods.

havocc
15-05-2016, 01:28
Hope chaparral 2j will make its appearance in pc2

Foofer37
15-05-2016, 04:15
Noooooooooooooo! :D

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
15-05-2016, 19:37
Then Newey's blown diffusers...Diffusers had been blown since at least the early 90s. Not on every car obviously, but there were several images of flipped F1 cars from the 90s that showed the exhausts exiting into the diffuser to blow them. Newey did it very well though. =)

Also: Plan to make racing great again: Ban downforce!

Foofer37
15-05-2016, 23:57
Diffusers had been blown since at least the early 90s. Not on every car obviously, but there were several images of flipped F1 cars from the 90s that showed the exhausts exiting into the diffuser to blow them. Newey did it very well though. =)

Also: Plan to make racing great again: Ban downforce!

Ban downforce! Now, I am all for that! That would definitely be a step in the right direction.