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Pfalzdriver
17-05-2016, 07:45
Dear ladies and gentlemen, Mods, Devs, CEOs, friends of PCars,

I hereby write this post in the name of the german gentlemen driver, and first things first my apologies for mispelled words, bad gramma and wrong word order. As you might imagine english isnt my native language.

For many months the german gentlemen drivers had a lot of fun with Project Cars, but a lot of problems too, because of a bunch of issues within the game. All those issues, some less friendly people would call them bugs, finally lead to the decision the suspend the german gentlemen drivers cup for an undefined amount of time, which literally means gone for good. As one of the drivers stated last friday, "I'm way too old to be upset by this f*cking piece of sh*t." His words, not mine.

It would be a very easy way to blame SMS for not fixing the issues within the game. But a given statement is right, no AAA-game is ever bug free. But in our humble opinion, it should be at least playable within the given possibilities. So we don't want to blame anyone, but we're hoping to get some solutions for the afterwards stated main problems, in order to continue with PCars.

Attached is also a video which shows all of the visual showable problems. It is the race we had done last Friday, which was intended to simulate the "Bathurst 1000." The plan was to start at 4am with hazy weather, tenfold time progression, race duration 60 minutes with different weather slots, but without any kind of rain. Wouldnt have been an exact replication of this race over twelve hours, but at least near to it.

But it was impossible to do this race!

We've had three practice sessions last week, every time we used a different host as server. First practice was a simple P2P-session, second time we used a server running on windows, last session we've tried a linux based server. But every time the game completely crashed. Partly only on my side, but at least three times it crashed the same time on a bunch of drivers. Error message was always the same, "Pure virtual call trap," Line 228. Cant remember the module, but as I found out myself, this bug is getting reported since months!

The course of events was always the same: Screen freezes, sound is still running, the rim is still active. After some seconds the screen goes black, STRG-ALT-DEL brings you back to windows, where the error message of PCars awaits you. We've narrowed this problem down ourselves to the time progression, so we ended up doing this race without time progression.

After the race I've tried to find a solution for this problem, but there are only approaches:
Don't use time progression at all, because maybe there is a problem with sunset/sundown
Don't use time progression with weather slots.
Don't use dedicated servers, at least no linux based servers, P2P only
Don't use VAC approved servers, they could mess with apps like crew chief, PCars Dash, etc.
Don't use Ultra within your graphic settings.

Sadly I couldnt find an official statement what the players can do and what shouldnt be done. Plain and simply not using time progression was the most useful option to do this race. Because we're really way too old to hunt down bugs, we just wanna race with each other. For example, another planned race was the 24h of LeMans, squeezed to an hour of real time racing, but this seems impossible right now.

OK, we've managed to do this race, just without time progression, but there were a bunch of other bugs, some are just annoying, some are game killing. I'd like to name them in ascending order of importance:

Replay:
One player left the game, I'll write down the reason later, so the replay was completely messed up. As you can see, two cars are parked at the pit lane, the liverys of the other cars are completely wrong. I know this issues has been reported many times. I know it cant be fixed. I just want to adress it to enumerate all issues.

Sound:
There are actually two topics. First there is the stuttering sound of other players cars, and second there is the wrong sound of your own car. I got used to the first issue, and personally I dont consider it as a high priority issue. Neither is the second issue. Imho it is just amusing, that the Ford Falcon sounds offline like it is supposed to sound, and in online races it sounds like it did before the sound was changed in patch #9. As I already wrote, no big deal but annoying.

Drivers name:
Never noticed this before patch #11, maybe I just never payed attention to it, but the names of the drivers are visible through solid objects, which is really annoying. Usually I just turn the names off, but for the sake of showing them, I've activated them within the video at the end of this post.

Now the biggest issues!

Players got stuck while switching sessions
Luckily this didnt happen last Friday, but it happened so many times until now, I've stopped counting. After the switch of a session a player is either stuck at the pit or cant move his car a single inch. I really cant tell how many times we've had to restart a race, because at least one of the colleagues couldnt move his car. But I can remember one raceday at Oulton Park, where we had to restart five times before everyone was capable of racing.

Pit Stops:
Actually there are also two bugs.

1. Whoever is capable of understanding german will hear what had happened at Bathurst, Teamspeak is active within the video. Due to real life obligations only thirteen out of twenty registered racers were able to participate in this race. And two of the present racers had the same pit stop issue. They both requested to pit, entered the pit, and the crew did nothing! No tires changed, no refueling, no repairs! As I mentioned above, one racer left the game, because of this problem. He entered the pit a second time, and again no work was done, so he was completely pissed.
Another racer even rechecked his strategy while he was entering the pit, everything was setup correctly, but he needed to pit three times before the work was actually done by the crew. Before his first try to pit he was in second place, but due to the non working stops he finished fourth. Some could say, still a good result. But without this issue he would have been second easily, and it is understandable why he wasnt in the best mood after the race.

2. Fourteen days earlier we had a time based race at Donington Park GP. For reasons which are not really worth mentioning, lets call it personal stupidity or blackout, I've entered the pit after the race timer counted down to zero, also in second place. The car stopped in pit and thats it. The game wouldnt let me go back on track again. I was second after Zero was reached, entered the pit as second, and would have left it at position five or six. Instead I got assest as DNF, and I really wasnt amused.

Only way to get rid of those issues for sure is to do races without pit stops. It is a possible workaround, although I'm not really sure how to keep a set of tires alive for sixty minutes. Would have been impossible at Bathurst, so we dont really consider this an option.

Controller/Wheels
Literally everyone of us had one of the following issues with his rim in PCars, and we've all popular brands, starting at beginners products like Logitech DFGT, across Thrustmaster 300 and 500, until up to Fanatecs CSR Elite and CSW one and two:
Different steering angle online and offline.

I've had this problem myself again within a practice session last week, the angle was completely off. For example at Murrays Corner (Turn 23 - 90 left) I had to steer 180 degrees, completely crossing my arms. In offline practice my wheel was setup to turn around 100 degress, afair 6.6:1 or 6.0:1, but within MP the steering angle was like a schoolbus.

Before I switched to Fanatec I've used a DFGT, which reacted sometimes the opposite way. Instead of switching to an angle like a schoolbus it was snappy as hell. Many times a quick and dirty ALT-Tab to the desktop did the trick, but sometimes even this didnt help. But the bad part was, most times this happened it was at the race start, so I had completely lost. Meaning the wheel was working fine during practice, quali and warmup, and decided to destroy my race.

Personally I cant find any reason why and how the angle of the personal setup is needed to be changed, or even transmitted to other players. It's understandable for other car settings, like tire pressure, ride height and camber, to get the proper visuals. But the steering angle?
And obviously there isnt really a solution for this topic. Sometimes you just need to restart PCars and/or your wheel and all is working again. But sometimes you can restart PCars and/or your Rim a dozen times and the angle is still off in multiplayer, but working in "offline mode."
And this is strictly a PCars-related issue. We've all checked with another game if this problem occured, lets call this one X3X, and there wasnt a single problem. So we can completely rule out driver, firmware or system related problems.

Controller stops working after the end of a session
This happens to me at least once a week, either at a practice session or at the race day, and also the colleagues are reporting it at least once a week. A session ends, for example Qualifying, next session starts, for example Warmup, and the wheel isnt working anymore. No steering input, no throttle, no brakes or clutch. Sometimes you just need to remove the USB-connection and replug it, sometimes you need only to restart the wheel, sometimes you need restart PCars. Sorry devs, but this is unacceptable, and casts a damning light on this so called AAA-game.

Controller starts vibrating if a new session starts
Happens occasionally but it happens. The wheel is vibrating, no matter where you are. Even if you are on track or at the pit, the wheel vibrates. Solutions are the same as mentioned before.

Wheel is inclined after switching sessions
Happens occasionally too, mostly with products made by Fanatec. Impossible to race if you are using a F1-Rim like I do. With a "round" wheel it isnt easy, but with a F1 it is just not playable. Luckily I've had this problem only once, but one of the colleagues had this issue a couple of times with his CSR Elite.

All those issues lead to our decision to suspend our cup with PCars, at least until there are solutions for those problems. We really enjoyed PCars in the past, but there are so many problems which cant be handled by ourselves, which need to be fixed by SMS. Especially the problems with the wheels, because there is plain and simple no proper workaround. Many of us, including myself, even reinstalled PCars to sort out a local issue, but the problems still remain after a blank installation.

But we are willing to give PCars another chance, if the problem mentioned before is solved, and if someone is able to tell us how to solve the issue with time progression for sure. My colleagues and myself have all crossed our Fortys, some guys have already crossed the sixtys. We just want to race and after nearly one year of PCars we dont wanna play betatester instead, and getting told over and over again, we are aware of this problem, but we cant fix it.

Thanks for reading and no offense is intended with this thread.

Pfalzdriver per procurationem of the german gentlemen drivers

Edit: Forgot the link to the video file:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Fmqr2wDbY

Edit #2:
Forgot to mention another annoying bug, though it was the first time I've heard about this one. A colleague had a time penalty at around 44:30 within the video, and the counter stopped at one. So he had to drive through the pit to reset the counter. Lucky for him he wasnt too far away from the pit as this occured. Imagine you are at the Nords and this topic is on the table if you are driving through the Hatzenbach area. For sure I wouldnt finish this lap!

-carbo-
17-05-2016, 08:31
We had a nightmare league race on Sunday night, to be fair the problems were mostly caused by a strange issue where one of our members timing goes berserk and hops between 1st and last on the timing screen. But over the last few weeks our admins have been losing patience and started to get setup to run our future series in AC. We have experienced most if not all of the bugs you have mentioned and it does get a little frustrating. pCars is a game with so much potential it's a shame it does not look like it's going to be able to meet the expectations.

inthebagbud
17-05-2016, 09:26
We had a nightmare league race on Sunday night, to be fair the problems were mostly caused by a strange issue where one of our members timing goes berserk and hops between 1st and last on the timing screen. But over the last few weeks our admins have been losing patience and started to get setup to run our future series in AC. We have experienced most if not all of the bugs you have mentioned and it does get a little frustrating. pCars is a game with so much potential it's a shame it does not look like it's going to be able to meet the expectations.

We had this issue last night where times were showing one thing and data coming out to apps was delayed in that somebody might have set a good lap but was showed as no time but then it would go to say 1.24 but apps would report it as a fastest lap at say 1.28 - all very wierd

Last nights MP was made up of , no party chat - some people could hear/ others couldn't hear anything/ others couldn't connect , FFB kept going strong then weak , after a pitstop with only fuel I came out of pits with tyre temps at 340C

Not sure if its Pcars or SMS but its all all very demoralizing

tomtparis
17-05-2016, 09:49
totally agree Pfalzdriver
the only solution is to switch to another Sim.
There are some-and the MP are better working.
And PC2 is not a solution anymore,after this Year of massive Problems with this Game.
So many Friends have left our League because of the same Problems you describe.
"Its a waste of Time" thats what we hear so often.

PC for Leagues? forget it !

Pfalzdriver
19-05-2016, 16:37
http://www.pcgamesn.com/project-cars/project-cars-2-is-now-in-full-production-by-the-entire-development-team

Does that mean all ressources are now deployed to PCars2, and no futher bugfixes are provided?

If Yes, RIP PCars, and you've lost a bunch of possible buyers for PCars2 already.

Bealdor
19-05-2016, 16:41
http://www.pcgamesn.com/project-cars/project-cars-2-is-now-in-full-production-by-the-entire-development-team

Does that mean all ressources are now deployed to PCars2, and no futher bugfixes are provided?

No (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?47096-Does-the-GOTY-means-the-end-of-all-future-DLCs&p=1277685&viewfull=1#post1277685) and no (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?46941-Replay-bug&p=1275518&viewfull=1#post1275518).

Sankyo
19-05-2016, 18:41
http://www.pcgamesn.com/project-cars/project-cars-2-is-now-in-full-production-by-the-entire-development-team

Does that mean all ressources are now deployed to PCars2, and no futher bugfixes are provided?

If Yes, RIP PCars, and you've lost a bunch of possible buyers for PCars2 already.

And if No (and No)? Your posting seems to have a rather negative bias ;)

kevin kirk
19-05-2016, 19:05
http://www.pcgamesn.com/project-cars/project-cars-2-is-now-in-full-production-by-the-entire-development-team

Does that mean all ressources are now deployed to PCars2, and no futher bugfixes are provided?

If Yes, RIP PCars, and you've lost a bunch of possible buyers for PCars2 already.

you know, I know, and everyone else knows that you and everyone else that says they wont will buy Pcars 2. Will buy Pcars 2

sbtm
19-05-2016, 19:06
how is his posting biased? it's just his and others latest experiences with the multiplayer of the game. smh

I don't know these issues because I switched to R3E some months ago, but I can imagine that it gets frustrating for operating a league. So of course he sounds negative towards the game...

Sankyo
19-05-2016, 19:49
how is his posting biased?
He asks the (neutral) question if there will be more patches, and then only states what he'll do if there won't be. I'm interested what he'll do if there will be, just to balance to equation :)

NoBrakes
19-05-2016, 22:02
To make it short: in my german community there were many drivers until early this year that were looking for pCARS to do some decent league racing. After doing some casual events for month on a more or less regular basis, we recently dumped our plans to try this and we are now evaluating R3E (very promising) and rF2 (depends on how steam switch will perform) besides our AC league that is already running. Sadly I have to state that I myself just do some casual driving in pCARS from time to time, but if I have to decide where I like to race I choose between AC, R3E or rF2 - Because I backed pCARS2, too, and I know whats going on over there, I still have the hope that the devs will learn from the mistakes and errors in pCARS1 and there will be some day in the future a new point to start evaluating pCARS2 then as a league racing platform...

Konan
20-05-2016, 04:44
No (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?47096-Does-the-GOTY-means-the-end-of-all-future-DLCs&p=1277685&viewfull=1#post1277685) and no (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?46941-Replay-bug&p=1275518&viewfull=1#post1275518).

I usually hate no's...but these i like...:D

Pfalzdriver
20-05-2016, 04:44
And if No (and No)? Your posting seems to have a rather negative bias ;)

I've expected nothing less than a minor shitstorm towards me, and Yes, I've noticed your smiley.

In my first post I didnt really name the game we've switched to, but now it has been named a couple of times, so same rights for all of us. :)

Pro PCars:

Better looking
Time progression
Weather
Huge amount of cars and tracks
Imho better physics


Pro R3E:

Better sound
Incredible Replays with fully adjustable cams
Rims are always working
MP is working nearly perfect


OK, sometimes you cant start the dedicted server of R3E, but in this case you know what is going on, instead of getting kicked by PCars due to expectable crashes over and over again.

And as I already stated, this bug is reported since months, and since months nothing changed. Even worse, this bug sounds pretty familiar. Two older racing sims, I dont want to name them, but I wouldnt have a problem naming them, had the same issues. So someone could get the thought, a pretty shitty netcode was just recycled while creating PCars, and because it couldnt be fixed a couple of years ago, it wont be fixed now. And if there is a lazy coder working at PCars2 ... finish this thought by yourself.

But to answer your question, as I already stated we would continue using PCars and probably PCars2 too, if the issues with the wheels get fixed within PCars1, and if we get a stable MP. It doesnt have to be a hundred percent stable, no game will ever be, but after nearly one year our patience has come to an end, and we need to see some noticable improvements. But to be honest, personally I dont expect an improvement anymore, and yes, this is negative. :)

Ian Bell
20-05-2016, 04:50
I've expected nothing less than a minor shitstorm towards me, and Yes, I've noticed your smiley.

In my first post I didnt really name the game we've switched to, but now it has been named a couple of times, so same rights for all of us. :)

Pro PCars:

Better looking
Time progression
Weather
Huge amount of cars and tracks
Imho better physics


Pro R3E:

Better sound
Incredible Replays with fully adjustable cams
Rims are always working
MP is working nearly perfect


OK, sometimes you cant start the dedicted server of R3E, but in this case you know what is going on, instead of getting kicked by PCars due to expectable crashes over and over again.

And as I already stated, this bug is reported since months, and since months nothing changed. Even worse, this bug sounds pretty familiar. Two older racing sims, I dont want to name them, but I wouldnt have a problem naming them, had the same issues. So someone could get the thought, a pretty shitty netcode was just recycled while creating PCars, and because it couldnt be fixed a couple of years ago, it wont be fixed now. And if there is a lazy coder working at PCars2 ... finish this thought by yourself.

But to answer your question, as I already stated we would continue using PCars and probably PCars2 too, if the issues with the wheels get fixed within PCars1, and if we get a stable MP. It doesnt have to be a hundred percent stable, no game will ever be, but after nearly one year our patience has come to an end, and we need to see some noticable improvements. But to be honest, personally I dont expect an improvement anymore, and yes, this is negative. :)

This is a long swan song.

We were looking into your listed issues but the abuse of the devs isn't acceptable. Their work is not shitty and they're not lazy.

Sankyo
20-05-2016, 06:06
Amazing how many people are unable to provide criticism without getting rude or insulting.