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View Full Version : [Sort of Rant] Why do some people absolutely hate this game?



Blazertron
16-10-2016, 20:22
I just found out about this game from Unbox Therapy, and I'm going to buy it soon. But I was just watching a drive club video, and I looked at the comments, and one said no game is comparable to DC, then some guy said that Forza Project CARS etc. are comparable. Then someone said that project CARS was "gay" and people who play it are little kids. I mean, if you use "gay" as an insult, especially when describing a game, you must be a little kid yourself. Also people were saying that the guy must be joking when he said project CARS was comparable.

Why is there all this hate? Are they just little kids, that are butthurt because someone else likes something they don't? This is just a little rant, because I think this game looks pretty cool!

Fanapryde
16-10-2016, 21:47
Probably because they either heard/read it and are just repeating, or because they don't manage to drive properly in a proper racing sim.
Just ignore them, try it out, invest some time to get the FFB properly adjusted to your likings and love it.
You will later also hear/read that pCars is not a proper sim, which is complete nonsense too.
It simulates more than any other sim out there, and does a good job at it too.

cluck
16-10-2016, 23:10
I am so tempted to bring coleslaw into this but as a new person on the forum, I doubt you'd have a clue what I'm on about ;).

Of course, it is absolutely fine to not like a game. The world would be a very boring place, after all, if we all liked exactly the same stuff. What I do not understand, however, is irrational hatred of something and driving sims do seem to bring out the worst in some people :(. What some of the most bitter people fail to understand is that every single computer game is an entertainment product and its sole purpose is to provide entertainment. Don't enjoy it? Play something else, that's my simple advice to anybody not having fun :yes:

(it shouldn't need to be pointed out but my reply is not aimed at the OP of course)

morpwr
17-10-2016, 01:53
Being pcars on ps4 was the first sim(ive been playing since the first gt-yes I'm old) I ever played id say its because most assume like I did its going to be easy and all the bad habits you learned while playing forza/gran turismo are still going to work. I remember a year ago I couldn't beat the game on 60. It takes practice and a lot of it in some cases. If you don't want to learn to drive better and properly it wont be fun. If you do its a great experience. Since getting it on ps4 ive switched to pc just because of the options for more sim based racing. That's how good it is.:cool:

Konan
17-10-2016, 02:17
Yep...this was really (and still is) a revelation on the Ps4...
Remember,what SMS did with this,making a community based racegame was quite revolutionary and risky to say the least...
It all turned out very well but could also have backfired so we really have to admire them for what they risked...considering also that they are not a multi-million dollar studio...(or were...lol)
SMS really stuck their neck out and are now situated amongst the greatest...which i guess some people resent...

morpwr
17-10-2016, 02:41
Yep...this was really (and still is) a revelation on the Ps4...
Remember,what SMS did with this,making a community based racegame was quite revolutionary and risky to say the least...
It all turned out very well but could also have backfired so we really have to admire them for what they risked...considering also that they are not a multi-million dollar studio...(or were...lol)
SMS really stuck their neck out and are now situated amongst the greatest...which i guess some people resent...

Yes it had its issues especially in the beginning but I have to applaud the whole sms team for making this. I totally agree it was a huge risk and I'm glad it worked out for them.They pushed the boundaries on what could be done on consoles.

Sankyo
17-10-2016, 06:09
Quite some hatred comes from people who were part of the development of pCARS but started behaving badly and got banned. They took their petty feud against the game and SMS onto the Internet and you saw the result yourself.

Others had made up their minds about the game before it even started selling, just because they didn't like previous racing games made by SMS.

And then you have the uncanny fanboyism and elitism in the sim racing scene, leading to whole Internet forums turning against certain games and their makers.

The Internet sure is an interesting place :p

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
17-10-2016, 07:20
@Remco: You forgot the "it'll be released on consoles so it must be sh*t" crowd. =)

Funny how quickly that turned around when Kunos announced AC would also release on consoles...

cluck
17-10-2016, 09:57
@Remco: You forgot the "it'll be released on consoles so it must be sh*t" crowd. =)

Funny how quickly that turned around when Kunos announced AC would also release on consoles...To be fair, they were right with regards AC on console :D ;) *



* I am, of course, joking and posted that with my tongue firmly in my cheek :). I have not played AC on console and barely played it on PC (I refunded it) - do NOT use my post to start an argument about AC or pCARS vs AC, thank you :yes:

racesafegrandad
17-10-2016, 10:04
I have been playing computer race sims on my P.C. for ever and I have never really found them realistic.
Now I have a PS4 and I am hooked on Project Cars for life! Need I say anymore?

Synystr
17-10-2016, 10:23
or because they don't manage to drive properly in a proper racing sim.

This isn't really a sim. Sure its closer to a sim than, say, the Codie's F1 games... but I wouldn't call it a sim, for multiple reasons. Namely the scripted track progression, the fact that you lose control of your car in the pit lane, unrealistic weather transition (lack of a drying line etc.), aerodynamics isn't quite there yet, the force feedback isn't great, you can't flat spot your tires... that's all I can think of right now.

As for why some people hate this game? I can think of a bunch of reasons:

BUGS BUGS BUGS (wheel not responsive or ffb is all over the place, time progression crashes, stuck in the garage, sound bug with the other cars).
Penalty system (no blue flags, time penalties are dangerous).
Modding is almost nonexistent.
Broken and limited replay system. (Non responsive cars sit in grid spots)
Laggy "displayed" physics for the people you are racing against. (Its kinda hard to explain, but if you ever see anyone oversteer off the track it just looks like they drive off, instead of slide)
You can't share setups and its difficult to save and load your own.

With that said... fanboys will be fanboys. This game is good when everything is going right. I've got almost 800 hours and a successful league in here, but when it goes wrong... I missed out on a 3 hour, 50+ driver, multiple lobby endurance event because I was stuck in the garage, or when doing a long tire stint in practice and someone backed out to the lobby, my whole system froze... That shit can really make me hate an inanimate, digital object lol

Sankyo
17-10-2016, 10:40
This isn't really a sim. Sure its closer to a sim than, say, the Codie's F1 games... but I wouldn't call it a sim, for multiple reasons. Namely the scripted track progression, the fact that you lose control of your car in the pit lane, unrealistic weather transition (lack of a drying line etc.), aerodynamics isn't quite there yet, the force feedback isn't great, you can't flat spot your tires... that's all I can think of right now.

It's the same old discussion of how you define 'sim' :). What I'm reading in your comments is that you think it's not a perfect simulation, but you cannot deny that it is simulating stuff. Some things it simulates well, others not, or approximately. For every racing sim out there you can find things it does well, badly or not at all. So by that reasoning, none of the current games are sims :)

cluck
17-10-2016, 10:43
This isn't really a sim. Sure its closer to a sim than, say, the Codie's F1 games... but I wouldn't call it a sim, for multiple reasons. Namely the scripted track progression, the fact that you lose control of your car in the pit lane, unrealistic weather transition (lack of a drying line etc.), aerodynamics isn't quite there yet, the force feedback isn't great, you can't flat spot your tires... that's all I can think of right now.

As for why some people hate this game? I can think of a bunch of reasons:

BUGS BUGS BUGS (wheel not responsive or ffb is all over the place, time progression crashes, stuck in the garage, sound bug with the other cars).
Penalty system (no blue flags, time penalties are dangerous).
Modding is almost nonexistent.
Broken and limited replay system. (Non responsive cars sit in grid spots)
Laggy "displayed" physics for the people you are racing against. (Its kinda hard to explain, but if you ever see anyone oversteer off the track it just looks like they drive off, instead of slide)
You can't share setups and its difficult to save and load your own.

With that said... fanboys will be fanboys. This game is good when everything is going right. I've got almost 800 hours and a successful league in here, but when it goes wrong... I missed out on a 3 hour, 50+ driver, multiple lobby endurance event because I was stuck in the garage, or when doing a long tire stint in practice and someone backed out to the lobby, my whole system froze... That shit can really make me hate an inanimate, digital object lolI just want to pick up on 3 items in your post, if I may :).

"Lose control of your car in the pit lane" - Why does this stop Project CARS from being a sim? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a genuine one. I wear an Oculus Rift and, with no d-pad to hand, I am thankful that the AI takes over so that I can choose what to do during my pit-stop, without having to simultaneously try and drive.

"Unrealistic weather transition" - at least it has weather transition ;)

"Can't flat spot your tyres" - tell that to all the guys I raced with last night that suffered flat-spotting :). Take the old BMW 2002 to Cadwell Park and drive (and brake) aggressively and you will experience flat-spotting and punctures.

As for the rest of the reasons, if people "hate" the game for that then they need to adjust their priorities in life. Sure, be frustrated and annoyed but going on a hate-fuelled rant across the internet over bugs and/or missing features is just bizarre behaviour :).

GrimeyDog
17-10-2016, 11:26
I just found out about this game from Unbox Therapy, and I'm going to buy it soon. But I was just watching a drive club video, and I looked at the comments, and one said no game is comparable to DC, then some guy said that Forza Project CARS etc. are comparable. Then someone said that project CARS was "gay" and people who play it are little kids. I mean, if you use "gay" as an insult, especially when describing a game, you must be a little kid yourself. Also people were saying that the guy must be joking when he said project CARS was comparable.

Why is there all this hate? Are they just little kids, that are butthurt because someone else likes something they don't? This is just a little rant, because I think this game looks pretty cool!

Pcars is Very Settings dependent... Either you will Love it or Hate it... But with the Proper Force Feed Back Settings Pcars is Brilliant and By far the Best Sim Racing Game with the Best Sim Physics out to date.

Grijo
17-10-2016, 11:33
I am so tempted to bring coleslaw into this but as a new person on the forum, I doubt you'd have a clue what I'm on about ;).

Of course, it is absolutely fine to not like a game. The world would be a very boring place, after all, if we all liked exactly the same stuff. What I do not understand, however, is irrational hatred of something and driving sims do seem to bring out the worst in some people :(. What some of the most bitter people fail to understand is that every single computer game is an entertainment product and its sole purpose is to provide entertainment. Don't enjoy it? Play something else, that's my simple advice to anybody not having fun :yes:

(it shouldn't need to be pointed out but my reply is not aimed at the OP of course)

236060

I brought for you :p

Thatīs the beauty about games, you can like or not, simply as that. And if you like to play GTA and Mafia for different reasons, go for it. Instead of choosing just one, pick all of them and play, be happy!


@Remco: You forgot the "it'll be released on consoles so it must be sh*t" crowd. =)

Funny how quickly that turned around when Kunos announced AC would also release on consoles...

I donīt know if anybody here bought Assetto Corsa for consoles and entered in their foruns. I have to say one thing: itīs an ugly place down there. Worse than this forum in the beginning. People are just bad with each other, all of the threads begins with rough words and ends worse than in the start, and waaaay off topic. Itīs all about fighting and Stability Control “off”.

It could be a good game, maybe not great, but good. Instead of it, itīs a mess, specially if youīre playing with a gamepad. I like the physics and how the road cars feel, could be a complement to my Pcars race group. Tuesdays we could continue to do our real racing in Pcars and Thurdays we could do some road racing in AC. Thatīs not going to happen, letīs keep only the tuesday Pcars racing (not trying to start an argue, fight or something like it, just my opinion). I didnīt sold my AC copy, I will wait to see if gets better.

One thing is for sure: I have 600 hours of Pcars and Iīm not tired yet, so much good combos to explore...

Pisshead30
17-10-2016, 12:30
I just found out about this game from Unbox Therapy, and I'm going to buy it soon. But I was just watching a drive club video, and I looked at the comments, and one said no game is comparable to DC, then some guy said that Forza Project CARS etc. are comparable. Then someone said that project CARS was "gay" and people who play it are little kids. I mean, if you use "gay" as an insult, especially when describing a game, you must be a little kid yourself. Also people were saying that the guy must be joking when he said project CARS was comparable.

Why is there all this hate? Are they just little kids, that are butthurt because someone else likes something they don't? This is just a little rant, because I think this game looks pretty cool!

I usually find more hate towards driveclub than project cars but no matter how good a game is you'll get the fanboys and haters for every game, judge games for yourself and with reliable non biased reviewers on youtbube. I find the guys on TeamVVV to be useful

Markus Ott
17-10-2016, 20:53
Before pCARS came out it was the new approach to sim racing.
After pCARS came out it was more the promissed missing features, bugs and "almost anything unfinished" feeling

Fanapryde
17-10-2016, 21:50
This isn't really a sim. Sure its closer to a sim than, say, the Codie's F1 games... but I wouldn't call it a sim, for multiple reasons. Namely the scripted track progression, the fact that you lose control of your car in the pit lane, unrealistic weather transition (lack of a drying line etc.), aerodynamics isn't quite there yet, the force feedback isn't great, you can't flat spot your tires... that's all I can think of right now.
After about 1500 hrs combined (PS4 and later PC):
- I would like to have control in the pit lane, agreed.
- FFB is great, once you manage to set it right, no discussion possible.
- At least there is weather transition.
- Not possible to flatspot ? LOL....
- Bugs ? I had a few when I was still on console. On PC: NONE (have to add that I don't do MP)
- Penalty system could be better, agreed.
- Modding ? Who really needs modding with all we have in game. Not going to name the other 'sim', but that one NEEDS modding because of the lack of content and controls. BTW, I have a pCars modded R8 LMS and it is great !
- Replay, maybe, I don't really use it a lot.

Synystr
17-10-2016, 23:32
- FFB is great, once you manage to set it right, no discussion possible.
- Not possible to flatspot ? LOL....
- Modding ? Who really needs modding with all we have in game. Not going to name the other 'sim', but that one NEEDS modding because of the lack of content and controls. BTW, I have a pCars modded R8 LMS and it is great !

I thought the FFB was great too until I happened upon the little game with the big name: Automobilista :P.
Well maybe you can flatspot, but all the times I locked up the wheels, I have never seen or felt a flatspot.

And seriously? Dude, modding is how you can legally sneak in unlicensed cars and tracks. Plus it keeps the game alive longer. Look at Grand Prix Legends or rFactor 1. Those games came out years ago and still have massive communities. My car and track list in Automobilista is double the size it originally came with haha. And that isn't to say it didn't come with a load of stuff before.

But anyways... these type of conversations never end. Cheers!

Synystr
17-10-2016, 23:35
It's the same old discussion of how you define 'sim' :). What I'm reading in your comments is that you think it's not a perfect simulation, but you cannot deny that it is simulating stuff. Some things it simulates well, others not, or approximately. For every racing sim out there you can find things it does well, badly or not at all. So by that reasoning, none of the current games are sims :)

True. But I'd trade... say... the graphics and god rays for the ability to drive in the pit lane, have proper racing line rubbering in, or better crash physics :P. I don't wanna start moaning about Automobilista but once you crash in that game... You aren't alive XD

Rambo_Commando
18-10-2016, 01:18
Pcars is Very Settings dependent... Either you will Love it or Hate it... But with the Proper Force Feed Back Settings Pcars is Brilliant and By far the Best Sim Racing Game with the Best Sim Physics out to date.

This best sums it up. The game settings can be intimidating at first but you can be sure there is a setting for you. It just takes time. Whatever bad things you read on the Internet is pure nonsense. Sure there are bugs but the amount of content SMS gave us it was expected, especially being their first game on console. I pretty much have every racing game on console but I keep coming back to Pcars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-10-2016, 01:24
especially being their first game on consoleApart from Shift 1 and 2. =)

Konan
18-10-2016, 03:40
Apart from Shift 1 and 2. =)

See...i knew that DNA looked familiar...:cool:

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-10-2016, 03:55
See...i knew that DNA looked familiar...:cool:Not that there's really anything left of them at this point in the code. =)

Fanapryde
18-10-2016, 05:30
I thought the FFB was great too until I happened upon the little game with the big name: Automobilista :P.!Well, that is not the point here. FFB feeling is rather personal. I did not try AM, but I did try Marca Petrobras (a free GSCE spin-off which is supposed to use the same physics). I did not like the FFB at all.
FFB in R3E is also different, but I like it, AC differs again, not bad either, but not as good as PC.
Lots of people may have different feelings, but these are mine, which shows FFB is personal. FFB right or wrong, who can tell ? It never is like in RL, how can it be.

Sankyo
18-10-2016, 06:11
And seriously? Dude, modding is how you can legally sneak in unlicensed cars and tracks. Plus it keeps the game alive longer. Look at Grand Prix Legends or rFactor 1. Those games came out years ago and still have massive communities. My car and track list in Automobilista is double the size it originally came with haha. And that isn't to say it didn't come with a load of stuff before.

But anyways... these type of conversations never end. Cheers!

Excuse me, "legally"? :) I have a very hard time believing that all those extra cars are scratch-made content and not ripped from other games without approval of their makers...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
18-10-2016, 06:31
Yeah. Way back in the day I remember that the majority of content I ran across was scratch made, but more and more in the last decade or so I've seen that become the small minority compared to ripping content illegally from other games... =(

And while I like modding as such, I definitely do not subscribe to the idea that keeping a game running indefinitely is inherently a good thing. I want there to be an impetus to improve the games, I don't want to have to rely on a game that's over a decade old, I want developers to make something better. Thankfully pCARS and to a smaller extent AC have finally removed the need for rFactor for me. =)

I also don't want to pCARS to be eternal, except maybe a series. I want there to be a pCARS 2 that will kick the snot out of pCARS 1. Thankfully that does seem to be happening. =)

EDIT: Right now there is only one old sim that I'm still drawn to, because there hasn't been anything that could replace it: Richard Burns Rally. I was hoping Dirt Rally could finally bury that, but nope, didn't happen.

Alan Dallas
18-10-2016, 06:41
I think it's safe to say pCARS is my most used race sim. rF2 runs 2nd to it by not even half this amount.

236072

That being said, I believe the original complainants and nay-sayers were the Anti-Shift and Shift 2 contingent out there. The ones that always dismissed rebuttals that SMS's hands were tied by EA when it came to the way those games turned out. They were operating under the assumption that pCARS would be more of the same. Enter the bandwagoners that weren't members of WMD and further propagated misinformation contrary to what WMD members were telling people on various Sim-Racing forums. Particularly on RaceDepartment and VirtualR. All that false narrative soon became the faddish thing to do. I.E. Bag on pCARS because it was "the cool thing to do". Much like hypocritical SJW's that lean to far to the Left.

Stewy32
18-10-2016, 06:43
Personally, I think Project CARS is the best thing on the market, particularly if you consider it is half the price of Forza Motorsport 6.

eiwhatsup
18-10-2016, 11:26
Well pure haters aside and what Remko Van Whatever says about the old people who were part of the development (the funding process I guess), I'll try to stay on the more technical part If possible.

I think some people hate project cars because of the tuning engine combined with the very physics engine. They weren't able to find a tune for their fav cars that didn't make them spin around over and over again, and ended up quitting the game and raging on it, or hating as you wish to call it.

I like projetc cars, but I have to admit that there seems to be only one type of good tuning setup for your car. Actually I found a couple of very different ways of tunning a Formula B in this game and both were most effective, but still..., there seems to be something wrong in the core physics, which is perhaps related to the very tyre model regardless what people say about it, I mean that it's been a long way since Shift tyre model and Project Cars. To me it's very obvious there's still a reminiscence of it as we could not have it any other way, since the core engine is shared completely.

There's also something akin to the british racing games in what it comes to spinning the car (when you lose traction and spin irremediably), which of course to me are always the most fun out of all but the spinning problem tradition seems to persist in all of them, like in the old toca touring games, the very shit series, etc, all of the english games. I mean I think that spinning too much is also what made a lot of people hate Project Cars with a fashion, reminding them all about Shift immediately, and in this last case I have no choice but to agree with them, even when the tuning factor is, precisely, somewhat the remedy to avoid this annoying spinning, but not at all..., that's where I think the problem about Project Cars lies in for the people.

I think the best thing about Project Cars is the british tracks. I've always loved them and It's a joy to finally being able to race on many of them, and I fear this will be no more in project cars 2 with all the gravel plans they have in store... *sigh*

Sankyo
18-10-2016, 11:54
Well pure haters aside and what Remko Van Whatever says
With my name being available only a few postings up for spell checking, you're not scoring points for tactfulness with this. Not that I really care how people call me online, but you're not really creating an atmosphere of respectful discussion with it.


about the old people who were part of the development (the funding process I guess),
Not funding, but actual development as in testing, bug finding, feature suggestions etc.



I think some people hate project cars because of the tuning engine combined with the very physics engine. They weren't able to find a tune for their fav cars that didn't make them spin around over and over again, and ended up quitting the game and raging on it, or hating as you wish to call it.

I like projetc cars, but I have to admit that there seems to be only one type of good tuning setup for your car. Actually I found a couple of very different ways of tunning a Formula B in this game and both were most effective, but still..., there seems to be something wrong in the core physics, which is perhaps related to the very tyre model regardless what people say about it, I mean that it's been a long way since Shift tyre model and Project Cars. To me it's very obvious there's still a reminiscence of it as we could not have it any other way, since the core engine is shared completely.

There's also something akin to the british racing games in what it comes to spinning the car (when you lose traction and spin irremediably), which of course to me are always the most fun out of all but the spinning problem tradition seems to persist in all of them, like in the old toca touring games, the very shit series, etc, all of the english games. I mean I think that spinning too much is also what made a lot of people hate Project Cars with a fashion, reminding them all about Shift immediately, and in this last case I have no choice but to agree with them, even when the tuning factor is, precisely, somewhat the remedy to avoid this annoying spinning, but not at all..., that's where I think the problem about Project Cars lies in for the people.
If a car spins, you're usually over-driving it. I rarely have issues with it, and when I spin I know why it happened. So in this case I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the game before having established that people are driving properly. Race cars are meant to be easy to drive, but that doesn't mean you cannot spin them.


I think the best thing about Project Cars is the british tracks. I've always loved them and It's a joy to finally being able to race on many of them, and I fear this will be no more in project cars 2 with all the gravel plans they have in store... *sigh*
Not sure what your fear is based upon, it was never stated that the gravel racing was going to replace existing tracks. Traditionally, sequels have most if not all content of the previous game plus more, and I don't think that pCARS2 will be an exception. Only licensing could pose an issue, but not the intentions of SMS.

Fanapryde
18-10-2016, 12:11
If a car spins, you're usually over-driving it. I rarely have issues with it, and when I spin I know why it happened. So in this case I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the game before having established that people are driving properly. Race cars are meant to be easy to drive, but that doesn't mean you cannot spin them.
^^This.
Race cars on slicks have an immense grip level, until you go just a tad too far... then the car spins with (usually) nothing left to do against it, because the grip is totally gone.
This will happen even faster when the slicks are not within working temperature range.

Imo people hating pCars (or any other sim) because of this, should think about playing arcade racers.

eiwhatsup
18-10-2016, 12:16
guys I agree with what you say regarding spinning; that you will spin if you overdrive your car, but you didn't quite understand my point. I'm saying that, again in my opinion, the spin over and over again brings people back to their memories about Shift, where spinning around was all over the top, pretty similar to what happens project cars, like it or not

I'm a pretty fast driver who don't spin often, and I like Project Cars a lot, but my perception and own opinion on this doesn't make me blind to the fact most of the haters as we call it may hate the game just because of this; because I too can perceive the Shift reminiscence in this game regardless the new tyre model. That, or there's something wrong with the current tyre model, and of course with the tunning engine, whjich I already said a part of the problem might be related to this too.

Roger Prynne
18-10-2016, 12:22
Well pure haters aside and what Remko Van Whatever says about the old people who were part of the development (the funding process I guess), I'll try to stay on the more technical part If possible.

I think some people hate project cars because of the tuning engine combined with the very physics engine. They weren't able to find a tune for their fav cars that didn't make them spin around over and over again, and ended up quitting the game and raging on it, or hating as you wish to call it.

I like projetc cars, but I have to admit that there seems to be only one type of good tuning setup for your car. Actually I found a couple of very different ways of tunning a Formula B in this game and both were most effective, but still..., there seems to be something wrong in the core physics, which is perhaps related to the very tyre model regardless what people say about it, I mean that it's been a long way since Shift tyre model and Project Cars. To me it's very obvious there's still a reminiscence of it as we could not have it any other way, since the core engine is shared completely.

There's also something akin to the british racing games in what it comes to spinning the car (when you lose traction and spin irremediably), which of course to me are always the most fun out of all but the spinning problem tradition seems to persist in all of them, like in the old toca touring games, the very shit series, etc, all of the english games. I mean I think that spinning too much is also what made a lot of people hate Project Cars with a fashion, reminding them all about Shift immediately, and in this last case I have no choice but to agree with them, even when the tuning factor is, precisely, somewhat the remedy to avoid this annoying spinning, but not at all..., that's where I think the problem about Project Cars lies in for the people.

I think the best thing about Project Cars is the british tracks. I've always loved them and It's a joy to finally being able to race on many of them, and I fear this will be no more in project cars 2 with all the gravel plans they have in store... *sigh*

I don't get where all this spinning is coming from as I can't remember the last time that I did that with any car.

Sankyo
18-10-2016, 12:26
guys I agree with what you say regarding spinning; that you will spin if you overdrive your car, but you didn't quite understand my point. I'm saying that, again in my opinion, the spin over and over again brings people back to their memories about Shift, where spinning around was all over the top, pretty similar to what happens project cars, like it or not

I'm a pretty fast driver who don't spin often, and I like Project Cars a lot, but my perception and own opinion on this doesn't make me blind to the fact most of the haters as we call it may hate the game just because of this; because I too can perceive the Shift reminiscence in this game regardless the new tyre model. That, or there's something wrong with the current tyre model, and of course with the tunning engine, whjich I already said a part of the problem might be related to this too.
But how about Shift and pCARS actually showing proper car behaviour, and people spinning out all the time is actually caused by faults in their driving?

Of course Shift and pCARS feel similar, because they are simulating the same thing and if they both are doing it properly then they will feel similar :) People (not pointing at you specifically BTW) should just not make the mistake of calling a game bugged because of their own mistakes.

Off-topic, but IMO iRacing wins the crown as the ultimate spinning simulator ;)

eiwhatsup
18-10-2016, 13:07
s I can't remember the last time that I did that with any car.spinning happens when you overdrive your car


But how about Shift and pCARS actually showing proper car behaviour, and people spinning out all the time is actually caused by faults in their driving?That's the point. I still have doubts on this subject. What you say may very well be true, but what If there's also some underlying issue with the tyre model and/or the tunning engine that somewhat enhances this (the spinning)?. What if both points, yours and mine are true and not just one of them?

That's the thing. Despite this I decided to keep playing PC 24/7 because of the simple and most important fact of all; because i enjoy this game a lot, specially FB and the British tracks, which are all epic to me. However, this too could have caused right the opposite effect on many others, to the point of making them all quit the game. Because as the tittle implied and I do agree, project cars has soooo many haters. You entered the more inner circumstances that took place as the development process went on. I just wanted to speak from the other point of view, just the user, and where the issue that lots and lots of folks seemed to have with project cars (to the point of hating) could be.



Off-topic, but IMO iRacing wins the crown as the ultimate spinning simulator ;)well iracing can defintiely feel as If you were driving on ice, most certainly.

GrimeyDog
18-10-2016, 14:05
I drive with No Assist and i dont have a Spinning.out problem at all except when i over drive or dont Gear down properly... For Me No Sim or Racing Game has Good Driving assist in them.... The assist give you a False Confidence and cause you to over drive Constantly... when the assist Kick in its like your Fighting against them because you Keep pushing the car because cant feel the onset of the Spin before it happens so you dont know when to back off.


BTW i did like Shift also... Never had soin out issues with that game either also driven with No assist.

Cholton82
18-10-2016, 15:15
I'm not saying I'm perfect because I'm not but if you are constantly having problems spinning I suggest you alter your style of driving and or your setup .
The only car I have had an issue with was the Corvette GTE with lift off oversteer but easily sorted with some setup help .

My last spin was at 130r Sakitto taking a bit too much kerb and I nearly ended up in a different postcode

Konan
18-10-2016, 15:18
I'm not saying I'm perfect because I'm not but if you are constantly having problems spinning I suggest you alter your style of driving and or your setup .
The only car I have had an issue with was the Corvette GTE with lift off oversteer but easily sorted with some setup help .

My last spin was at 130r Sakitto taking a bit too much kerb and I nearly ended up in a different postcode

Yep...been there...done that...:cool:

DreamsKnight
18-10-2016, 16:38
i think there are several type of users, and each type could generate a different source for the same "hate"

-"young console users". those who don't know old games, old styles, who know only the console ecosystem, the easy to use and to play. so they can have those problems related to the overdriving guide but they don't understand what is wrong and find natural a comparison between Pcars and forza/granturismo. i find totally innatural this comparison, i simply think they are two different tipology of games. I grew up knowing indy 500 for amiga 500 or grand prix legend 2 and i never made a comparison with Outrun. (nothing offensive in my words from my side, no attempt of flaming, please correct me if something is wrong)

-the "sim old users", the other side of the same coin. "uh pcars will be on consoles? it is an arcade." "too much grip! arcade!" "there will be no game great like my old XXX"

-i read now about old banned users. nothing to add this.

-those who are happy with the physics, but not with bugs or interface deficiencies, until they feel the whole thing totally unbearable. when you see thing like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=FWKmpa6IJ8I to the fastest guy in the grid in a server with 130ms ping limit, you are not happy. :)



personally my approach was to know from the start that a simulator was a difficult game and that I would serve months of study to become faster, which is finally going lapping also tenths near records. :D

Leper Messiah
18-10-2016, 17:08
Personally I think the "hate" came from the hype the game had. It was lauded by many to be the be all and end all of sim racing games, now a level head saw that as nonsense and realised SMS could only do the best they could within the talent/money/time constraints they had. They did a DAMN good job IMO, but many people believe hype (see No Man's Sky for similar hype to hatred ratio) and got angry with missing features etc etc, also those who preferred "rival" sims didn't like the "be all and end all" element and hated on it for that reason, usually online racers who need lots of people playing THEIR preferred game online.

Stewy32
18-10-2016, 17:14
I think they will keep all 7, the kart tracks and 3 new venues

pollinho123
18-10-2016, 17:17
I think it's what usually happens when people are very engaged. Whether it's iPhones versus basically every other smartphones, Playstation or Xbox, Battlefield or Call of Duty and so on and so on.

Wouldn't take it too serious. Play whatever you want as long as you enjoy it.

cxMilk
18-10-2016, 21:20
-"young console users". those who don't know old games, old styles, who know only the console ecosystem, the easy to use and to play. so they can have those problems related to the overdriving guide but they don't understand what is wrong and find natural a comparison between Pcars and forza/granturismo. i find totally innatural this comparison, i simply think they are two different tipology of games. I grew up knowing indy 500 for amiga 500 or grand prix legend 2 and i never made a comparison with Outrun. (nothing offensive in my words from my side, no attempt of flaming, please correct me if something is wrong)
Please be careful about your choice of words as "young console users" comes off as a derogatory generalization that console users equals kids. There are many of us who have been driving/racing digitally since games like Auto Racing on the Intellivision or Night Driver on the 2600. I understand what you're trying to say though, or what I assume you're trying to say - that PC style sims are a relatively new market on consoles. However, understand that tuning or learning how to balance a car and properly drive it isn't some new concept to console gamers. Console gamers aren't overdriving cars because we only want plug and play games and can't wrap our heads around in-game technical depth. However, there's a very good chance console gamers are overdriving cars because for decades console racers have been created around the notion of winning - not racing.

Keep in mind this is all relative to single player or campaign modes. There's very few console racing games where the emphasis is on proper racing instead of cranking out wins after wins after wins. Console racers have created bad racecraft and pCars is one of the first games to come along that has forced us to rethink how a racing game should be approached - that racing should first and foremost be about racing. I don't want to get into other games, but there are games out there - recent games - that have forced us to overdrive cars because they neglect important elements of racing such as qualifying, and demand we win or at least podium while barreling our way through the most atrocious drivers within 2 or 3 laps. This is why console drivers are apt to overdrive cars. We're asked to do what realistically should be impossible tasks instead of appreciating quality racecraft and finding a perfect balance of patience and aggression.

Also, console gamers comparing pCars to Forza or Gran Turismo is perfectly natural as that's all we have to go off. Up until now, with pCars and AC, Forza and Gran Turismo were the closest things to racing sims that console gamers had access to. Not only that, but they're both established franchises that have been around for years (Gran Turismo dating all the way back to '97/'98?). Nearly every console racer will cite one or the other as a proving ground.

Zpectre87
19-10-2016, 03:35
However, there's a very good chance console gamers are overdriving cars because for decades console racers have been created around the notion of winning - not racing.

Keep in mind this is all relative to single player or campaign modes. There's very few console racing games where the emphasis is on proper racing instead of cranking out wins after wins after wins. Console racers have created bad racecraft and pCars is one of the first games to come along that has forced us to rethink how a racing game should be approached - that racing should first and foremost be about racing. I don't want to get into other games, but there are games out there - recent games - that have forced us to overdrive cars because they neglect important elements of racing such as qualifying, and demand we win or at least podium while barreling our way through the most atrocious drivers within 2 or 3 laps. This is why console drivers are apt to overdrive cars. We're asked to do what realistically should be impossible tasks instead of appreciating quality racecraft and finding a perfect balance of patience and aggression.

Took the words straight from my mouth. :)

It's difficult to re-educate yourself after being used to the challenges in other games. In other games you're expected to always win, and I got into pCARS thinking just that, and finding it frustrating because it can be hard to win. I do find it boring to win all the time, but I'm addicted and need to get rid of it. This racecraft bit is the very reason why I don't sign up for any leagues online... I can lap fast but I suck at actual "racing". :(

hkraft300
19-10-2016, 07:43
Can I just throw a hypothesis out there, that eiwhatsup has made me think of regards tuning:

The dark art of Aerodynamics.

it's from Casey's "Physics of" posts about the FR3.5 and IndyCar that I gained some ideas to make those particular cars and the rest of aero-dependant cars much better to drive after a fiddle with the setup.

Under car aero (diffuser and other voodoo magic) has a big effect on grip. When you're sideways you've lost the grip of the tyres + aero grip. So essentially you're up s* creek without a paddle.

I used to wonder why Casey + co set such soft springs at the rear for a lot of open wheel and LMP cars as the default setup. Little did I know it's a way to have dynamic rear downforce: front bias at low speed (rear end rises up because the wing isn't pushing it down so diffuser is ineffective), rear bias at high speed (rear wing + diffuser).

The front+rear ride height control, rake etc plays a part that the usual idiot like myself take a long time (if ever) to get right with setups.

Synystr
19-10-2016, 12:26
Excuse me, "legally"? :) I have a very hard time believing that all those extra cars are scratch-made content and not ripped from other games without approval of their makers...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDmTfwSzPUs

The most popular AMS mod. I do not know of a modern game that has the '98 CART season completely included...

There is also a '91, '95 and '08 Ferrari F1 mods, a 2010 GT3 season mod, and drivable citrus fruits... All scratch made. And that's just the cars. I mean... sure you can jimmy a 3D model and convert it to work in AMS but the tracks? I don't think so. If it wasn't built in-engine... I don't think it would work.

But what do I know?

Actually, what I do know is that arguing with a moderator already got me banned of off the DayZ standalone forums :P. As you can imagine, I was/am upset with the perpetual "ITS STILL IN ALPHA!!!!!" argument coming up on 3 years since early access release... But that is a story for another time.

I concede defeat.

Fanapryde
19-10-2016, 12:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDmTfwSzPUs
I do like the safety car feature though... :D

Synystr
19-10-2016, 12:54
Also, I forgot to mention that the mod maker who made the '91 Ferrari and McLaren F1 Cars also modeled the faces of Prost, Alesi, Senna and Berger under the helmet... You can tell its Prost by his crooked nose XD. Like shit. Detail.

rosko
19-10-2016, 17:15
I just found out about this game from Unbox Therapy, and I'm going to buy it soon. But I was just watching a drive club video, and I looked at the comments, and one said no game is comparable to DC, then some guy said that Forza Project CARS etc. are comparable. Then someone said that project CARS was "gay" and people who play it are little kids. I mean, if you use "gay" as an insult, especially when describing a game, you must be a little kid yourself. Also people were saying that the guy must be joking when he said project CARS was comparable.

Why is there all this hate? Are they just little kids, that are butthurt because someone else likes something they don't? This is just a little rant, because I think this game looks pretty cool!

People, psychology etc.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
19-10-2016, 17:58
I used to wonder why Casey + co set such soft springs at the rear for a lot of open wheel and LMP cars as the default setup. Little did I know it's a way to have dynamic rear downforce: front bias at low speed (rear end rises up because the wing isn't pushing it down so diffuser is ineffective), rear bias at high speed (rear wing + diffuser).It's mostly because that combination gives you a sharp and responsive front end (when combined with proper racing alignment and aero) and increased rear traction due to the pliable rear suspension, it's the way most racing cars are set up, even non-aero dependent. Stiff rear springs tend to reduce traction and a soft front end makes steering response sloppy, so it's not really a good way to go, only reason road cars use it is because it's more comfortable over bumps (the "flat ride" concept). Even track oriented aftermarket spring and damper sets for road cars move towards this "stiff front, soft rear" direction most of the time. The only times I've seen racing car setups with stiffer rear suspensions has been on a few cars that ran REALLY rear biased aerodynamics setups, and the rear suspension had to be stiff to cope with that. That, or FWD racing cars where the rear end must be kept loose so that it doesn't cause understeer.

Additionally aerodynamics wise it is more important that the front end is kept stable than the rear end, the nose going up and down usually has a bigger effect on the level of downforce and the center of pressure than the rear end. This is why some cars that are almost fully developed to maximize downforce (like many open wheelers) instead of thinking about mechanical grip can have incredibly stiff front suspensions, they want the front to stay at a certain height above the ground ALWAYS.

Also rake angle tends to increase the effectiveness of diffusers, not decrease it, as long as you don't go totally overboard. The low nose and high rear create a larger expansion and a larger diffuser angle than just having the car flat with the diffuser being the only expansion, and works the whole underbody more. Increasing the rake angle tends to increase total DF in pCARS too, and usually moves the center of pressure forwards a bit (front wing is at a higher angle of attack and the enhanced underbody aero alos tends to move pressure forwards). Especially high angle diffusers can benefit more from high ride heights and rake angles (more at this post from Willem Toet (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-do-motorsport-ground-effect-diffusers-work-willem-toet), who worked with F1 aerodynamics for decades).

236089

Red Bull has always been about producing as much downforce as possible, and they've always ran much higher rake angles than the competition, to work the underbody really hard.

236088

Of course you can go too far with this, too high and you indeed do start bleeding in too much air from the sides and losing the vacuum.

This actually would be worth testing sometimes, but I think you might actually be losing a bit of aero efficiency when the rear goes down at really high speeds (still producing more DF overall because you're going faster), but it's a compromise so that you can have at least some mechanical traction back there. From an aerodynamicists point of view they'd prefer it if the car had no springs at all, so that they could make sure the body stays in the angle and height they want (which is why active suspension in F1 was so effective). Need to look into testing this...

But yeah, the primary reasons for stiffer fronts than rears on racing cars without massive DF is maintaining rear traction while providing sharp front end response (the springs are "understeery" but racing cars can get around that with alignment and tyre sizes) and on cars with a lot of downforce the bias moves even further towards the front to provide a stable aero platform at the first contact point with air, which dictates how the air will hit everything behind it as well.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
19-10-2016, 18:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDmTfwSzPUs

The most popular AMS mod. I do not know of a modern game that has the '98 CART season completely included...

There is also a '91, '95 and '08 Ferrari F1 mods, a 2010 GT3 season mod, and drivable citrus fruits... All scratch made. And that's just the cars. I mean... sure you can jimmy a 3D model and convert it to work in AMS but the tracks? I don't think so. If it wasn't built in-engine... I don't think it would work.

But what do I know?

Actually, what I do know is that arguing with a moderator already got me banned of off the DayZ standalone forums :P. As you can imagine, I was/am upset with the perpetual "ITS STILL IN ALPHA!!!!!" argument coming up on 3 years since early access release... But that is a story for another time.

I concede defeat.AMS seems like a much better case than most other modding friendly games if those are the most popular ones. Reminds me of the good old early days of rFactor when most of the stuff I saw was scratch made... I think this might be partly due to the very small and focused target audience of the game compared to rFactor etc.

FWIW if you have the 3D models for the track you can make it work in AMS, it's essentially "just" rFactor 1.5 from an engine (in the sense that it's an updated isiMotor that's running in there), there have been tons of track conversions for rFactor for example, all of the GTR 1 & 2, GTL, Grand Prix Legends, a lot of Richard Burns Rally and many more tracks have been converted, including most of the map of GTA Vice City (that was fun!). =)

DreamsKnight
19-10-2016, 19:13
Please be careful about your choice of words as "young console users" comes off as a derogatory generalization that console users equals kids. There are many of us who have been driving/racing digitally since games like Auto Racing on the Intellivision or Night Driver on the 2600. I understand what you're trying to say though, or what I assume you're trying to say - that PC style sims are a relatively new market on consoles. However, understand that tuning or learning how to balance a car and properly drive it isn't some new concept to console gamers. Console gamers aren't overdriving cars because we only want plug and play games and can't wrap our heads around in-game technical depth. However, there's a very good chance console gamers are overdriving cars because for decades console racers have been created around the notion of winning - not racing.

Keep in mind this is all relative to single player or campaign modes. There's very few console racing games where the emphasis is on proper racing instead of cranking out wins after wins after wins. Console racers have created bad racecraft and pCars is one of the first games to come along that has forced us to rethink how a racing game should be approached - that racing should first and foremost be about racing. I don't want to get into other games, but there are games out there - recent games - that have forced us to overdrive cars because they neglect important elements of racing such as qualifying, and demand we win or at least podium while barreling our way through the most atrocious drivers within 2 or 3 laps. This is why console drivers are apt to overdrive cars. We're asked to do what realistically should be impossible tasks instead of appreciating quality racecraft and finding a perfect balance of patience and aggression.

Also, console gamers comparing pCars to Forza or Gran Turismo is perfectly natural as that's all we have to go off. Up until now, with pCars and AC, Forza and Gran Turismo were the closest things to racing sims that console gamers had access to. Not only that, but they're both established franchises that have been around for years (Gran Turismo dating all the way back to '97/'98?). Nearly every console racer will cite one or the other as a proving ground.

first, i'm here also to try to learn a better english, so if you want, feel free to correct my words without being a derogatory generalization. :)

young means, young! if you are sixteen you are young, so the background is totally different from older gamers, and probably (not ever) you grow up without knowing several things. http://holykaw.alltop.com/kid-cant-figure-out-how-to-use-walkman-video. i don't consider it a fault, i think it is natural. grow is also known, and vice versa :)

the main problem is in the words "racing games". yes forza and Pcars are racing games. exactly like lions and whales are mammals. from whales and lions you have very different expectations, and i (someone who played pacman or tetris) feel natural in the same way to have different expectations from Forza (or GT) and Pcars.

but. probably, if you are young, and you grow up with the actual games, you couldn't know why two racing games are so much different. the next steps are two: or you understand why, or you start to hate. :)

we are speaking about the "hate", and mine was an speculation.


Took the words straight from my mouth. :)

It's difficult to re-educate yourself after being used to the challenges in other games. In other games you're expected to always win, and I got into pCARS thinking just that, and finding it frustrating because it can be hard to win. I do find it boring to win all the time, but I'm addicted and need to get rid of it. This racecraft bit is the very reason why I don't sign up for any leagues online... I can lap fast but I suck at actual "racing". :(

don't do the same error of me: to wait to sign league online. it's the best way to enjoy the game to became a better driver. :)

hkraft300
20-10-2016, 07:49
See, post something simplistic on a technical issue: Jussi gets triggered, we learn stuff ;)

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?49050-Sort-of-Rant-Why-do-some-people-absolutely-hate-this-game&p=1310389&viewfull=1#post1310389

Judging by Casey's posts and the way the IndyCar and FR3.5 behave, I'll bet on Jussi's rake post applies to this game.
Going back to the "hate" and the spinning/tuning issue: how many of us knew of rake and diffuser effects to this detail? AND use it effectively?
Just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean it's broken.

Sankyo
20-10-2016, 08:37
The real question of course is: does Jussi actually like coleslaw?

Bealdor
20-10-2016, 08:50
The real question of course is: does Jussi actually like coleslaw?

I think it depends on the aerodynamic efficiency of the bowl you serve it in...

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
20-10-2016, 09:10
The real question of course is: does Jussi actually like coleslaw?I hate coleslaw.

cluck
20-10-2016, 09:46
I hate coleslaw.\o/

I've always liked you Jussi, but my respect for you has increased fourfold, nay, tenfold with this one simple sentence :D

We now return to our regular scheduled thread "Why do some people love coleslaw hate Project CARS?"

Konan
20-10-2016, 09:56
\o/

I've always liked you Jussi, but my respect for you has increased fourfold, nay, tenfold with this one simple sentence :D

We now return to our regular scheduled thread "Why do some people love coleslaw hate Project CARS?"

No coleslaw livery? :cool:

Zpectre87
20-10-2016, 09:57
IMO it's because fanboyism.

I mean, the game isn't perfect, but the reasons I chose pCARS as my main sim were simple:

1) Proper next gen graphics.
2) Simulation of night and weather.
3) Choice between an actual good career mode and independent events.
4) SMS (as Blimey!) made GTL which was what got me into sim racing.
5) To go against the flow and the fanboyism of people who support competitor games.

To me the things missing are extra setup slots and save in the middle of an event. I also do not like seeing cars go through mechanics and other cars in the pits. :P And I do have issues with content carried over from Shift 2 (certain car sounds). But I believe I paid full price for pCARS and I won't complain, as I got what I wanted. :)

Sankyo
20-10-2016, 10:27
I hate coleslaw.

Too much 'force feedback'? :p

Konan
20-10-2016, 10:34
Lol...good one :cool:

DreamsKnight
20-10-2016, 10:35
\o/

I've always liked you Jussi, but my respect for you has increased fourfold, nay, tenfold with this one simple sentence :D

We now return to our regular scheduled thread "Why do some people love coleslaw hate Project CARS?"

more than hate, i have doubts why often i see Pcars called "simcade" without having any of the features of a simcade. -_-

sometimes i think simply for the "modern flat design" menus. -_-

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
20-10-2016, 10:40
Too much 'force feedback'? :pDon't know about that, but if you try to feed it to me I might feed it back to you, quite forcefully.

Grijo
20-10-2016, 11:43
236092

Sparco
20-10-2016, 13:18
I just found out about this game from Unbox Therapy, and I'm going to buy it soon. But I was just watching a drive club video, and I looked at the comments, and one said no game is comparable to DC, then some guy said that Forza Project CARS etc. are comparable. Then someone said that project CARS was "gay" and people who play it are little kids. I mean, if you use "gay" as an insult, especially when describing a game, you must be a little kid yourself. Also people were saying that the guy must be joking when he said project CARS was comparable.

Why is there all this hate? Are they just little kids, that are butthurt because someone else likes something they don't? This is just a little rant, because I think this game looks pretty cool!

At the risk of getting lambasted here I think this thread kind of answers it's own question...

Look at all the posts, let's use remcos as an example:

Quite some hatred comes from people who were part of the development of pCARS but started behaving badly and got banned. They took their petty feud against the game and SMS onto the Internet and you saw the result yourself.

Others had made up their minds about the game before it even started selling, just because they didn't like previous racing games made by SMS.

And then you have the uncanny fanboyism and elitism in the sim racing scene, leading to whole Internet forums turning against certain games and their makers.

The Internet sure is an interesting place

Here, he portrays EVERYONE who has even the slightest negative view on the game to be people who have something wrong with them? Petty/Narrominded/Fanbois etc etc etc..

Personally, reading this thread gives me the creeps, it's ok to let people have an opinion and vent it. I bet you all do too. Whether that's topics on race, sexuality, abortion, pay, politics, food, drink, drugs, religion etc...

The problem is that those folk who "love" this game (to the extreme), seem to want to condemn anyone who doesn't "love" it to the same degree (and label them crazy/strange) because they think differently.

It's really quite uncomfortable reading through the last few pages watching each other congratulate themselves for having the same opinion and hating on everyone else who doesn't think the same. There's a word for that.

It's not so far removed from world events taking place right now, that you are all wildly complaining about :)

I think the hatred is not toward the game per say, but toward the way the hardcore fans treat anyone who thinks differently and who's views doesn't align exactly with theirs.

Interesting when the mirror is held up, but I don't think anyone in this thread would tolerate that behaviour aimed toward them in a forum where "their" views don't/didn't align with the few.

It's not nice and it makes for truly uncomfortable reading watching a bunch of Boys, PST each other on the back, say how tight they are, slander anyone who thinks differently and labels them with nothing but negative values.

Maybe that's why the community is very shallow and there's not many left :(

Bealdor
20-10-2016, 13:25
Look at all the posts, let's use remcos as an example:


Here, he portrays EVERYONE who has even the slightest negative view on the game to be people who have something wrong with them? Petty/Narrominded/Fanbois etc etc etc..


I don't know how you came to that conclusion but that's absolutely not what he said.
This topic here is about haters and not about someone who just misses some features in the game or complains about a bug.

DreamsKnight
20-10-2016, 14:17
At the risk of getting lambasted here I think this thread kind of answers it's own question...

Look at all the posts, let's use remcos as an example:


Here, he portrays EVERYONE who has even the slightest negative view on the game to be people who have something wrong with them? Petty/Narrominded/Fanbois etc etc etc..

Personally, reading this thread gives me the creeps, it's ok to let people have an opinion and vent it. I bet you all do too. Whether that's topics on race, sexuality, abortion, pay, politics, food, drink, drugs, religion etc...

The problem is that those folk who "love" this game (to the extreme), seem to want to condemn anyone who doesn't "love" it to the same degree (and label them crazy/strange) because they think differently.

It's really quite uncomfortable reading through the last few pages watching each other congratulate themselves for having the same opinion and hating on everyone else who doesn't think the same. There's a word for that.

It's not so far removed from world events taking place right now, that you are all wildly complaining about :)

I think the hatred is not toward the game per say, but toward the way the hardcore fans treat anyone who thinks differently and who's views doesn't align exactly with theirs.

Interesting when the mirror is held up, but I don't think anyone in this thread would tolerate that behaviour aimed toward them in a forum where "their" views don't/didn't align with the few.

It's not nice and it makes for truly uncomfortable reading watching a bunch of Boys, PST each other on the back, say how tight they are, slander anyone who thinks differently and labels them with nothing but negative values.

Maybe that's why the community is very shallow and there's not many left :(

i don't read nothing of these things inside this topic, but i agree if you are referring to haters, cause your description seems perfect for them.

search here if all these "fanboys" writed here something offensive or bad against Assetto Corsa, Automobilista, RaceRoom etc... all of them direct competitors of our favourite sim. :D

poirqc
20-10-2016, 14:49
All of this is a simple process really. You sit down, drive some laps.

Was it enjoyable? Yes. You repeat.

You didn't like it. You put it aside and do something else.

End of story. :)

Bashing on stuff, regardless if love or hate, is enjoyable for some it seems. Let them have their threats. Have yours the way you want!

Konan
20-10-2016, 15:18
Maybe that's why the community is very shallow and there's not many left :(

Seems to me you're not taking prisoners either...accusing an entire community of being shallow...

BullWinkle
20-10-2016, 16:25
No coleslaw livery? :cool:

Nope, no coleslaw liveries., But there is Jussi's new Coleslaw Calculator, it never gives a positive result.:p

Sankyo
21-10-2016, 09:12
Just picking this part out



The problem is that those folk who "love" this game (to the extreme), seem to want to condemn anyone who doesn't "love" it to the same degree (and label them crazy/strange) because they think differently.
...

You're making a sweeping general statement here, exactly what you're accusing many people on this forum of in your positing. But besides that, it's not even true. The fact that people who like pCARS retort to hateful or negative postings doesn't make them fanboys or has them condemning the other guy in any way. I see this quite often on this and other forums: the opinion that people should be allowed to post negative opinions, rants and downright wrong statements about the game or SMS, but when people disagree or point out flaws in those statements they're suddenly fanboys 'defending' the game and SMS. If you post something on a forum, you should expect and accept disagreeing responses, no matter what it is about. Just because your opinion is negative doesn't mean you're right, or that everyone should agree with you.

Sparco
28-10-2016, 09:27
Just picking this part out



You're making a sweeping general statement here, exactly what you're accusing many people on this forum of in your positing. But besides that, it's not even true. The fact that people who like pCARS retort to hateful or negative postings doesn't make them fanboys or has them condemning the other guy in any way. I see this quite often on this and other forums: the opinion that people should be allowed to post negative opinions, rants and downright wrong statements about the game or SMS, but when people disagree or point out flaws in those statements they're suddenly fanboys 'defending' the game and SMS. If you post something on a forum, you should expect and accept disagreeing responses, no matter what it is about. Just because your opinion is negative doesn't mean you're right, or that everyone should agree with you.

If you take my post as it was presented I'm not generalising what so ever. I made it very clear that the "thread" (the context and basis of my comments and discussion) answered its self. My comments were directly related to the contextual basis I present prior to making the statement.

What you are doing is taking my statement and applying it to things out with the context I had restrained it to. Thus, presenting it unfairly. It's the equivalent of someone writing "I hate people like him" and discussing a guy who robs from old people (any race / colour / creed) then shouting to the world that said person "hates people like him" insinuating they are referencing the previously undisclosed (in this example) race / colour / creed.

You are just reinforcing my point (perhaps not in your view but for sure in mine and for those who see it from THIS perspective).

Second you said this:

Quite some hatred comes from people who were part of the development of pCARS but started behaving badly and got banned. They took their petty feud against the game and SMS onto the Internet and you saw the result yourself.

Others had made up their minds about the game before it even started selling, just because they didn't like previous racing games made by SMS.

And then you have the uncanny fanboyism and elitism in the sim racing scene, leading to whole Internet forums turning against certain games and their makers.

The Internet sure is an interesting place :p

Here you posted all the ways that people dislike the game, yet you then discredited every signed opinion by labelling them as having some issue/agenda and not that they could (quite rightly so) just have a difference of opinion.

Point 1: you call them Petty
Point 2: you call them narrow minded / biased toward SMS
Point 3: you call them fanbois.

You never once said anything about those who just have difference of tastes and opinions.
Of course, I'm getting slandered in here, and someone actually tried to say that you didn't actually say this???


I don't know how you came to that conclusion but that's absolutely not what he said.
This topic here is about haters and not about someone who just misses some features in the game or complains about a bug.

Please See above and re-read it? It's EXACTLY what he said. It's quoted?

There is a fantastic saying quoted regularly when a discussion like this arises!
You can't reason with unreasonable, and in this thread, the evidence is quite prevalent. Let's just move forward shall we.

Ironically I'm a fan of the game, just not a fan of ... well ... you know... (CJs)

Konan
28-10-2016, 10:29
I've been around from (almost) the beginning of this forum and i've seen the reactions some people gave...these reactions had nothing to do with difference of taste or opinion...THAT's when SMS practically left the forum and the mods became more agitated...Remco calling them the names he did is justified imho...
The consequences of that is that people get banned/infracted before it gets ugly...not for HAVING a different opinion or taste but HOW they choose to vent it...
Most of the times we even give them ample chance to change their ways (NOT opinions) before we do so...for the majority that works...if it doesn't,that leads me to believe those people posted just to rant anyway...

F1_Racer68
01-11-2016, 15:33
Second you said this:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Remco Van Dijk http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?p=1309958#post1309958)
Quite some hatred comes from people who were part of the development of pCARS but started behaving badly and got banned. They took their petty feud against the game and SMS onto the Internet and you saw the result yourself.

Others had made up their minds about the game before it even started selling, just because they didn't like previous racing games made by SMS.

And then you have the uncanny fanboyism and elitism in the sim racing scene, leading to whole Internet forums turning against certain games and their makers.

The Internet sure is an interesting place :p

Here you posted all the ways that people dislike the game, yet you then discredited every signed opinion by labelling them as having some issue/agenda and not that they could (quite rightly so) just have a difference of opinion.

Point 1: you call them Petty
Point 2: you call them narrow minded / biased toward SMS
Point 3: you call them fanbois.

You never once said anything about those who just have difference of tastes and opinions.
Of course, I'm getting slandered in here, and someone actually tried to say that you didn't actually say this???

Sorry to say this, but you should hold your mirror up to yourself as well.

If you take the time to read Remco's original statement without allowing any personal bias to interfere, you will realize that he is speaking of VERY SPECIFIC AND SELECT groups in all 3 of his points. Those groups are also quite well known to those of us that have been around Sim racing for some time. These groups are not new, nor specific to Project CARS. pCARS is just the latest target. Take a look at any Sim Racing forum and you will find similar threads comparing sim X to sim Y. They have always been ugly (the Forza vs. Gran Turismo fights come to top of mind).

The reality is that the points Remco made are exactly right. As the old saying goes, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease.". In the case of Internet forums, the "loudest voice" gets listened to. Those with extreme opinions (on either side of the argument) tend to be the "loudest voices", and therefore tend to be the opinions that others will gravitate around. Exactly as with real world issues today (as you pointed out). Most of the loudest voices in regards to pCARS tend to be those who have a vested interest in it's success (so called fanboys), and those that have an ax to grind (haters). All Remco did was point out the REASONS some feel they have an ax to grind. In fact, he ALSO pointed out the other extreme (fanboism and elitism).

As is common in text forums (or emails, or any other written communications), it is very easy to read tones and thoughts into things that are in fact not there. Read the words as they are written without injecting your own bias and you will see that the meaning changes completely. If anything, Remco's post was probably the most balanced comment I have read in this thread as he clearly identified the problems on both sides of the arguments. I grant you though that his fanboism and elitism comment could apply to both sides of the argument as well (those who hate because they prefer another sim, or those who support blindly).

rosko
01-11-2016, 17:59
I think there is something to be said for the argument that pcars is a bit too grippy & therefore easier than it should be. I think that goes along way to the game being viewed as a simcade. Irony is Pcars has done great things for the sim community as a whole because of this, not only people who make sim hardware but the other sims on the market by making sim more accessible. As niche as sims are its probably going through a boom right now in popularity & it can only be a good thing for everyone.
In terms of the forum drama I think for the most part the mods do a great job on here but i think the way some of the staff have behaved has not been so helpful & has done nothing to help SMS's reputation in the sim world. I work with difficult people in my job on a daily basis & try to use the 'parent adult child' model every day, I think that has not always happened on these forums with certain people & has left some bitterness.

hkraft300
02-11-2016, 06:00
I think there is something to be said for the argument that pcars is a bit too grippy & therefore easier than it should be. I think that goes along way to the game being viewed as a simcade. Irony is Pcars has done great things for the sim community as a whole because of this, not only people who make sim hardware but the other sims on the market by making sim more accessible. As niche as sims are its probably going through a boom right now in popularity & it can only be a good thing for everyone.
In terms of the forum drama I think for the most part the mods do a great job on here but i think the way some of the staff have behaved has not been so helpful & has done nothing to help SMS's reputation in the sim world. I work with difficult people in my job on a daily basis & try to use the 'parent adult child' model every day, I think that has not always happened on these forums with certain people & has left some bitterness.

Do you think the more experienced SIM racers and amateur track hacks are accustomed to more difficult car behaviour from older Sims and are objecting to the ease of tyre and car behaviour in pcars, therefore "simcade"?

Sankyo
02-11-2016, 06:10
I think there is something to be said for the argument that pcars is a bit too grippy & therefore easier than it should be. I think that goes along way to the game being viewed as a simcade. Irony is Pcars has done great things for the sim community as a whole because of this, not only people who make sim hardware but the other sims on the market by making sim more accessible. As niche as sims are its probably going through a boom right now in popularity & it can only be a good thing for everyone.

Odd that this argument comes up again, as it has been discussed back and forth for a long time already (albeit mostly on WMD which you weren't part of). Real-life race drivers have been stating for years that tyre grip displayed in older sims is too low, that race cars have lots of grip and in general are really easy to handle, even past the optimum grip of the tyres. This didn't go down well with the hardcore sim racers who based much of their self-esteem on being able to handle overly difficult cars in their favourite games, and declared everything easier than ice racing to be simcade.

hkraft300
02-11-2016, 06:40
Easy for a professional race driver vs easy for the usual mortal being?
Although a SIM racer can put in virtual track time equivalent to (if not more than) a professional, quite easily. Then it's a practice makes perfect situation, learning curve and what not.
With the advancement of commercially available Sims rivalling bespoke software run by motorsports teams, the difference soon will be just down to the physical fitness of an athlete (pro racer) vs couch potato (SIM racers).

Zpectre87
02-11-2016, 06:42
Odd that this argument comes up again, as it had been discussed back and forth for along time already (albeit mostly on WMD which you weren't part of). Real-life race drivers have been stating for years that tyre grip displayed in older sims is too low, that race cars have lots of grip and in general are really easy to handle, even past the optimum grip of the tyres. This didn't go down well with the hardcore sim racers who based much of their self-esteem on being able to handle overly difficult cars in their favourite games, and declared everything easier than ice racing to be simcade.

Remco you've nailed it in the head. THIS is the BIGGEST reason why some people refuse to take this game as a serious sim. I personally find that, while slicks are very grippy, cars with road tires require more finesse to be driven. The McLaren F1 for example is quite dangerous to drive if you aren't smooth.

By Ian Bell's own admission in an interview he did when the first NFS Shift came out, GTR2 was "too hard" and had a problem in low grip situations where the cars simply lacked the grip to be driven with precise input. I enjoyed GTR2 but, since I don't have access to the cars it featured, I know bollocks about what's real and what isn't. If a Porsche (Ruf!) handles like a Porsche should, I'm ok with that.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-11-2016, 06:53
Easy for a professional race driver vs easy for the usual mortal being?Easy at 9/10, the last tenth being the difficult one. Another example of this would be Jeremy Clarkson trying out the Zonda R in Top Gear, where he specifically mentions how despite being the lightest, most powerful Zonda ever (at the time) and essentially being a racing car, it was the easiest Zonda to drive out of all of them, exactly because there was so much grip. The most common response from all of the real life drivers who tried the game (even those who just had a go instead of being part of development) was how nice it was to have a sim with a grip level closer to real tyres. Perhaps the real life racer with the most well known hatred for sims was Ben Collins, and that was exactly why he was hired, to get the tyre behavior closer to what it actually should be, ignoring sim traditions.

That is not to say that everything was dead on perfect (no sim has ever reached that level), there is room for improvement in the future.

EDIT: Meant to say "response", not "complaint", fixed. =)

Sankyo
02-11-2016, 07:06
Easy for a professional race driver vs easy for the usual mortal being?.
Even for normal people like you and me, race cars are not difficult to handle. It only becomes difficult if you want to drive those cars on the limit, and do it all the time, because that takes lots of practice, concentration and physical fitness. Real race cars are built to be easy to drive and handle, because then the driver can concentrate on racing instead of staying between the white lines.

(Not 100% true for all occasions though, as some cars will kill you if you're not careful with the inputs, but that's just cars having their limits a little easier to go over :)).

EDIT Also what Jussi said (didn't see his posting, it was on the next page for me :)).


By Ian Bell's own admission in an interview he did when the first NFS Shift came out, GTR2 was "too hard" and had a problem in low grip situations where the cars simply lacked the grip to be driven with precise input.
But the key point is that it's not Ian who came up with that statement, it was real-life race drivers playing these race sims who stated that real cars have much more grip and don't kill you if you sneeze at the gas pedal.

hkraft300
02-11-2016, 12:50
My only point of reference in established Sims vs pcars is the V8 supercar.
I raced that at a SIM race centre running rf1 and even with 4-point transducers the car was skatey as. In pcars it's so different! Grip when you drive it right, sideways if you're silly with the throttle.

F1_Racer68
02-11-2016, 17:40
I've always felt that most sims had too little grip. It always made me think that if it were really that slick then most races would actually be ice capades/demo derbys.

To me, based on my real world street experience in ice, snow, wet and dry (but no track experience), pCARS feels more realistic. Think about how wide and how soft most racing slicks really are. Do you honestly think their grip level is so minimal that looking at the throttle pedal would make you spin out? Hardly!!

rosko
02-11-2016, 17:44
Do you think the more experienced SIM racers and amateur track hacks are accustomed to more difficult car behaviour from older Sims and are objecting to the ease of tyre and car behaviour in pcars, therefore "simcade"?

yes probably, obviously debate around what is closer to reality, i would argue in terms of lap times pcars seems some what fast in comparison to real life times with same car/track combos.

rosko
02-11-2016, 17:49
Odd that this argument comes up again, as it has been discussed back and forth for a long time already (albeit mostly on WMD which you weren't part of). Real-life race drivers have been stating for years that tyre grip displayed in older sims is too low, that race cars have lots of grip and in general are really easy to handle, even past the optimum grip of the tyres. This didn't go down well with the hardcore sim racers who based much of their self-esteem on being able to handle overly difficult cars in their favourite games, and declared everything easier than ice racing to be simcade.

Yes maybe you are right but lap times are somewhat faster in pcars & yet other sims seem much closer in times. I think if you tested the amount of g's pulled on these tyres they may be more than you can irl.

Bealdor
02-11-2016, 17:58
yes probably, obviously debate around what is closer to reality, i would argue in terms of lap times pcars seems some what fast in comparison to real life times with same car/track combos.

I would argue that if you're not able to be significantly faster in your favourite sim

in your comfortable living room,
without G-forces trying to throw you around in your seat,
with no fear of crashing a $200.000 car or injuring yourself,
with perfect track conditions and a perfectly crafted car setup plus unlimited testing time

than a real driver is on the real track, said sim is harder than RL.


I agree though that a few cars seem to be a bit too fast ingame. That's the "no sim will ever be perfect" part IMO. :)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
02-11-2016, 18:20
I would argue that if you're not able to be significantly faster in your favourite sim

in your comfortable living room,
without G-forces trying to throw you around in your seat,
with no fear of crashing a $200.000 car or injuring yourself,
with perfect track conditions and a perfectly crafted car setup plus unlimited testing time

than a real driver is on the real track, said sim is harder than RL.


I agree though that a few cars seem to be a bit too fast ingame. That's the "no sim will ever be perfect" part IMO. :)Yup, gotta agree with you there. It was interesting reading about one particular GT3 team's escapades (forget what their name was but they drove a Z4 GT3) during a season, they said that theoretically they could change springs, dampers and even some gearing settings for every race, but in practice they rarely bothered, playing it safe and just using their baselines with minimal alignment and aero adaptations, and of course tyre pressures they fiddled with constantly. Differentials were never touched. And whatever setups they came up with had to be usable for 2-3 different drivers, depending on the race. Then you factor in that unless the team is based at a certain track, they usually only get a couple of hours worth of practice on whatever track they're racing on during a race weekend (and that time also includes working on the car and adjusting it, it's not all track time) before they have to start qualifying etc., which leaves very little time for any modifications anyway (whenever you're adjusting something you're not driving on the track), so if the team isn't familiar with the car and track already from previous years you can be at a serious disadvantage. And they only get 4-6 sets of tyres for the whole weekend, which have to last for practice, qualifying, warm up and race sessions. You need to make sure you don't wreck them accidentally. And every heat cycle you put them through has an effect on their performance. And the tyre sets aren't all the same, even with the manufacturers' best efforts.

Compared to this we have absolutely reliable conditions, infinite time to practice, infinite amount of perfectly reliable quality tyres, infinite amount of cars we can afford to wreck while testing out every permutation of the line through every single corner, and then we can just hunt that one perfect lap as much as we want until we finally manage it. Almost every time I look at one of my hot laps the car looks a lot looser than even the fastest qualifying laps IRL, I'm pushing the car in ways that real life racers don't tend to do because it's not a viable strategy in the long run. I'd be surprised if even with the "perfect sim", simply due to the amount of practice and setup fiddling possible, you wouldn't always be able to reach slightly faster lap times than IRL drivers can with all of the things they have to deal with.

And then there are some known inaccuracies/balancing decisions, like the Soft tyres for GT3 cars being closer to GTE level tyres with their grip, making them multiple seconds faster on a lap just from that. The vast vast vast majority of GT3 racing series don't even allow the teams to pick their tyres, apart from slick vs. intermediate or rain tyres. In almost every series there's an official supplier of tyres, be it Pirelli, Michelin, Hankook, Continental, Falken, Avon or whatever else, and they only send one dry compound for each team to use. Often this is what would be known as a "hard compound". In GTE though they get to pick their tyres more freely, and there are some rare GT3 races where such freedoms are also afforded, like the Bathurst 12 Hours in the past few years (they've stopped that since).

LogRoad
02-11-2016, 19:22
There is a Top Gear episode (can't recall the season or episode) in which they put Hammond in an F1 car, his mission being to complete a lap. Took him a few minutes to get enough throttle control to get away from the pit area, then it took several more tries to warm up the tires enough to get underway. Eventually I think he did manage a complete lap. Didn't look very "easy" though. And when he got out of the car Hammond didn't look much like another go.

Jezza819
02-11-2016, 20:01
There is a Top Gear episode (can't recall the season or episode) in which they put Hammond in an F1 car, his mission being to complete a lap. Took him a few minutes to get enough throttle control to get away from the pit area, then it took several more tries to warm up the tires enough to get underway. Eventually I think he did manage a complete lap. Didn't look very "easy" though. And when he got out of the car Hammond didn't look much like another go.

That was with the Renault team when they had the blue and yellow livery but I also can't think of the year. I seem to remember it must have been right after they went with the 2.4 V8's because he was driving a V10. He first went out in 2 lower class Formula cars but struggled with the F1 car. I remember the team manager saying they had to get him out in the F1 car before his neck went out meaning the strain was going to get to him first. Or something like that.

Sankyo
02-11-2016, 20:31
There is a Top Gear episode (can't recall the season or episode) in which they put Hammond in an F1 car, his mission being to complete a lap. Took him a few minutes to get enough throttle control to get away from the pit area, then it took several more tries to warm up the tires enough to get underway. Eventually I think he did manage a complete lap. Didn't look very "easy" though. And when he got out of the car Hammond didn't look much like another go.
I remember that one as well, and I think that his biggest trouble was not being aggressive enough on the braking, so that they remained cold?

I think F1 cars are a bit different, as they're using some extreme mechanical designs and physics (e.g. downforce) that makes the learning curve rather unsuitable for a novice. Also because of the extreme forces on your body. I'd think it's the exception to the rule :)

Roger Prynne
02-11-2016, 20:59
http://youtu.be/kUhB0JKjJrQ?list=UUjOl2AUblVmg2rA_cRgZkFg

LogRoad
02-11-2016, 23:15
That's great Roger, thanks. Yay, team! I don't remember it as that long a piece though. Maybe what I saw was an outtakes from that or something.

Any way, another exception to the rule that modern race cars aren't that hard to drive is the cars that aren't so modern. Like 1960's GP/F1 cars (& '70s?). I've heard/read quotes from retired racers on their '60s GP cars driving like a trolley car on ice or a pig on ice and more to that effect. And Jim Clark remembered by at least one driver for words to the effect that if you're driving right on the edge and you recover from a mistake, you were not truly driving on the edge. Anyway, been going on bit more than I intended and it's not really that important. I'm not a racer and not much of a sim racer. pCARS clearly takes a commitment from drivers, though some cars straight out of the box are much easier to drive than others (Ford Focus :p).

One more time: Thank you, thank you SMS!

P.S. My outlook might change if I switched from a keyboard to a wheel - who knows?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
03-11-2016, 04:10
Yeah, there are some cars that have such ridiculous power to weight ratios that they can get tricky, but the point was that not all racing cars are like that. And even those cars they try to make as easy as possible. F1 (and some other open wheelers) are notoriously difficult to drive to where they want to be driven IRL simply because the physical requirements from the driver are so high, the cars can do so much more than the drivers usually dare push them. And some racing tyres are just plain evil when they're cold, making it even more difficult to push them to get them up to temperature. =(

Back in the 60s things were indeed somewhat different, back then the cars were light, they had quite a bit of power, and the tyres even at top level racing were quite close to what is today available for your road car, except the grip was produced at a significantly higher slip angle. The same sort of problem really as modern road cars, which can go over 100 km/h faster than any GT racer down a straight but don't necessarily stop any better than a fairly normal family sedan. So you had cars that had a lot more go than they ever had grip, and what grip they had required the cars to be slid at nearly twice the angle of today's racing tyres. With the safety of tracks and cars back then that obviously does not make for a magnificent combination. Yet there are still those who drove the top level racers back then and still say that they were really good and comfortable to drive, so impressions vary.

Another thing I find interesting to ponder about is "how close to the edge were the drivers most of the time?" Take Jim Clark at Monza in 1967 for example. He lead the race until lap 12, when he got a puncture and had to limp his way back to the pits for a tyre change, losing an entire lap in the process. He then climbed back to number 1 spot by lap 60, with enough of a lead that even when his fuel pump broke on the final lap forcing him to coast to the flag, he still came in third. So, had he had a trouble free race, do you think he would have lapped the whole field, which he clearly was capable of doing? I doubt it quite severely, I think he would have won comfortably but he would have held back a lot compared to what he pulled off when chasing down the whole field.

hkraft300
03-11-2016, 20:50
Easy is a relative term.
Who of the aforementioned haters declaring pcars too easy/simcade can lap at pro pace with pro consistency with tyre +fuel+mech failure on, for a full stint?

Far from easy.

Doge
06-11-2016, 15:13
...simply due to the amount of practice and setup fiddling possible, you wouldn't always be able to reach slightly faster lap times than IRL drivers can with all of the things they have to deal with.

Key word being "slightly". That doesnīt happen in PCARS. Most times, with most cars, youīre 2 to 5 seconds faster than you should even when you donīt exploit the sim advantages like unlimited practice, hotlap attempts, and setup time. If you just drive 30 minutes and do some setup work, and then do 4 hotlaps, youīll be already way better than the real pace in almost every combo.

Itīs true about these advantages though... If youīre given loads of attempts, youīll always find improvements over a 2 attempts qualifying, sure. But that will be measured at best in tenths, never seconds.

Zpectre87
06-11-2016, 15:36
People always think of the pros, but in most GT3, GT4 series IRL there's a sizable portion of the grid consisting of amateur drivers. And they can manage just fine. They'll be much slower than the pros, but they don't bin it every lap either.

Also:

1) The tracks in pCARS were created to the best ability of SMS' staff, but they're not laser-scanned. This could cause slight variations in lap times compared to the real thing.

2) Weather conditions are always variable. In pCARS you can go to Time Trial and get perfect conditions to set your fastest lap with. This almost never happens IRL, and even differences in temperature can mean seconds on a track.

3) I think it was Jussi who said that the tire compounds used IRL aren't necessarily the same ones used in the game... It's difficult to simulate all the different existing compounds in all the series in the world. You can't really compare the lap times of something like the Escort to RL times because the Escort uses a standard historic compound which may not have been available back in the day. When Blimey! made GT Legends, they were very careful to detail the tire choices and expected car behavior. The smaller Alpina CSL for example wore radials which weren't that common back in the day, and most of the GTC-TC-76 cars wore Avon slicks which could've been better than the tires available in the 70s. The 1965 and older cars were almost all fitted with standard Dunlop Vintages.


Easy is a relative term.
Who of the aforementioned haters declaring pcars too easy/simcade can lap at pro pace with pro consistency with tyre +fuel+mech failure on, for a full stint?

Far from easy.

They should try driving some of the historic cars, preferably with a stick and the clutch. :D It's not easy to be consistently fast at all in them.

Bonus points if the car happens to be turbo. :D

rosko
06-11-2016, 17:27
It seems to me that if you are lapping significantly quicker but you have far less feedback than you would irl then its down to the physics either tyre or car rather than driver skill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoWJjlLyR8

The suggestion that you can pull that gap back irl by the pro driver that has a mclaren team setting up the car they have not exactly gone about it in a half arsed way that car will not go much faster & yet the irony is that the pcars driver will probably get faster.

hkraft300
07-11-2016, 01:45
It seems to me that if you are lapping significantly quicker but you have far less feedback than you would irl then its down to the physics either tyre or car rather than driver skill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoWJjlLyR8

The suggestion that you can pull that gap back irl by the pro driver that has a mclaren team setting up the car they have not exactly gone about it in a half arsed way that car will not go much faster & yet the irony is that the pcars driver will probably get faster.

Our brains are complicated things. Though we lack the SoP feedback of a real racecar, with enough practice our brains compensate for it in other audio/visual/ffb/pattern recognition ways.

Also, a team of pro race engineers have to meet compromises that we don't, eg tyre life, race length, pit strategy, multiple drivers, limited track time (funny enough they use Sims for extra testing). They can't tune a TT Queen to its limits (except WTAC). They can't burn unlimited sets of tyres, best compounds, etc.
Meanwhile, we can just tune-test-race-repeat til we top the LB, and beyond.

All of the above points have been discussed before.

That said: flash heating. Current tyre model is limited to ~150c from memory. Casey and co tried to bump that up to 200c to match their tests. You'd have to pace yourself at long-ish tracks to not cook it by sector 3. Seems like the F1 boys have that problem, I dare say so would other levels of motorsports. Except maybe RX.
Patch 6 tyres gave that effect. Lap times skyrocketed. TT leaderboards came to a stand-still. Forum melted.

bmanic
07-11-2016, 03:16
Hmm.. I love pCars to death but I'm not buying all the excuses for "yeah but.. ". pCars has too much grip. Period.

.. but so does Assetto Corsa. In less than 10 attempts around Nordschleife I drove a slightly faster lap than the absolutely amazing Marco Mapelli. I'm very familiar with the track as I drive it all the time in AC but I was NOT at all familiar with the car.. yet I didn't have issues getting a world class time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-KRcEpQEM

So, my point is.. it's not just pCars having these issues. Just look at the alien laptimes in iRacing for another example. Some of those laptimes are ridiculously fast and they can't even have the excuse of non-laser scanned tracks, as they are all laser scanned.

This is why I think it's unfair to only point the finger to pCars. However, many of the tires in pCars are also suspicious in how progressive they are and especially the way they bite back into grip once total loss has happened. It's one of these sims where it's virtually impossible to get a tank slapper (unless the FFB is horribly setup and causes them instead of the actual tire grip situation). I don't think I've had a single serious tank slapper since the release of pC1 and it's not like I'm not pushing the cars (I still have some laptimes that sit in the top 10 it seems). I have tank slappers all the time in AC where they actually feel very believable. I know exactly why and how it happened.. and usually they are 100% deserved. iRacing is on the other spectrum though where you get tank slappers then you think "wtf??" afterwards.

It's also something to do with the weight transfer being a bit odd.. or too effective damping in pCars. You can't properly get into a nasty side-load snap back situation, which in my opinion seems to be the most common way amateur drivers get tank slappers in real life (you see them all the time on the various crash videos on the Nordschleife). The "uh oh, now the tire suddenly bites back!!" moment is almost completely missing in pCars.. and when it is present (like on some of the slick tires for the open wheelers) it's way too docile.

bmanic
07-11-2016, 03:25
Lots of examples in this little clip. For instance at the 2:40 mark (slow-mo about 30 seconds later). Just look a how quickly it changes direction.. over just about 1 car length. I've had plenty of these kinds of slap backs in AC, actually in the exact same corner.. and it looks almost spot on. pCars? Nope. I don't recall having this type of problems ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3hZtvZHv7c

EDIT: Make sure you watch the last crash as well. It's got to be the most epic crash in Touristen farth ever. :)

hkraft300
07-11-2016, 06:41
I get tank slappers all the time!
I could blame the ffb but I think it's just my amateur skills.

Anyway, pcars vs iracing, bmanic: A step in the right direction? In terms of grip gain/loss.
What if it's the peak grip that's spot on, but that sliding friction, grip fall-off/regain part behaviour that's the issue?
But then how do you get that "correct", when the same spec tyres from the same supplier changes in behaviour from season to season, batch to batch?

bmanic
07-11-2016, 22:46
I have no idea. I don't think any simulator has nailed tires yet. :)

They all have their strengths and weaknesses. It's also possible I'm currently underestimating my skills in pCars. I do have over 1000 hours played so I could perhaps start to consider myself a "better than average" driver by now.. but I don't think that fully explains it.

By far the biggest provider of consistent, safe driving in pCars in my opinion is good FFB. Once you have that sorted, it all gets quite easy. Rear steps out? Just let go of the wheel. Done. Couldn't be easier. :)

hkraft300
07-11-2016, 22:56
They never will.
They're getting bloody close though. Bring back patch 6 tyres dammit!

Maybe you're a good driver bmanic, and that pcars grip levels aren't far off the mark.

Like we've discussed before: GT cars aren't that hard to drive quick, but they do need mad skills for the lap times present on the LB. If the tyres are too grippy, car seems too easy:


...
They should try driving some of the historic cars, preferably with a stick and the clutch. :D It's not easy to be consistently fast at all in them.

Bonus points if the car happens to be turbo. :D

;D

That'll grow some hairs on yer chest.
And a moustache.
And your alcohol tolerance will rise proportional to the boost curve of the car you drive.

rosko
08-11-2016, 16:28
They never will.
They're getting bloody close though. Bring back patch 6 tyres dammit!

Maybe you're a good driver bmanic, and that pcars grip levels aren't far off the mark.

Like we've discussed before: GT cars aren't that hard to drive quick, but they do need mad skills for the lap times present on the LB. If the tyres are too grippy, car seems too easy:



;D

That'll grow some hairs on yer chest.
And a moustache.
And your alcohol tolerance will rise proportional to the boost curve of the car you drive.

GT3 cars are easy in most sims though. One thing i'm surprised nobody has made the argument that if there is more grip in pcars then you simply go faster, its not necessarily easier.

Zpectre87
08-11-2016, 18:34
GT3 cars are easy in most sims though. One thing i'm surprised nobody has made the argument that if there is more grip in pcars then you simply go faster, its not necessarily easier.

Yeah what people are calling "grip" here is probably lateral acceleration, IIRC what matters most in the tire model is how forgiving the tires are, which has to do with the slip curves.

I've tried once the Flat6 GT3 in rFactor and the tire behavior was almost "digital", either you have grip or you don't. HistoriX was the opposite, with generous room for slides.

hkraft300
08-11-2016, 23:19
...if there is more grip in pcars then you simply go faster, its not necessarily easier.

Nailed it! Was it Andretti Sr that said "if the car feels under control, you're not going fast enough" ...?
Problem solved, questions answered :)

While I agree with you, the result is lap times faster than real life, which causes the arguments "too easy/Not real enough/simcade".

Edit: What I fear is public persuasion resulting in a product we think we want, instead of a product that is more accurate *coughpatch6cough*

bmanic
09-11-2016, 06:21
I think the main argument is that in pCars the traction control and ABS is almost useless. There's no point in using those because you very rarely get into any trouble at all.

Switch off TC and ABS in iRacing and try to drive constantly on the edge. Result? Many many many deaths. :)

Not saying iRacing has it more realistic but at least there are reasons for going through the various positions of TC (usually 11 of them). In pCars I've not once felt the need to use any TC to help me out.

Zpectre87
09-11-2016, 06:53
I've seen instances where too much TC hurt my performance. In the 1M event at Nürburgring Sprint, I set it too intrusive and the car would often go limp on corner exit. If you use real assist, it's probably best to set the slip as high as you can whenever possible.

The LMP900 cars don't feature assists at all, and they're brutal if you're bad with throttle management, even on soft tires. They're monsters with 600 bhp sent to the rear tires, and they lock their brakes quite easily as well. If you claim there's no need for TC and ABS in pCARS, perhaps you need to drive the right cars first. ;)

hkraft300
09-11-2016, 08:03
The LMP900 cars don't feature assists at all, and they're brutal if you're bad with throttle management, even on soft tires. They're monsters with 600 bhp sent to the rear tires, and they lock their brakes quite easily as well. If you claim there's no need for TC and ABS in pCARS, perhaps you need to drive the right cars first. ;)

They're awesome things to drive. Lots of grip but they punish bad driving.

F1_Racer68
09-11-2016, 12:59
Nailed it! Was it Andretti Sr that said "if the car feels under control, you're not going fast enough" ...?
Problem solved, questions answered :)

While I agree with you, the result is lap times faster than real life, which causes the arguments "too easy/Not real enough/simcade".

Edit: What I fear is public persuasion resulting in a product we think we want, instead of a product that is more accurate *coughpatch6cough*

Yes, it was Mario that made that statement. I also share your fear as well. 110% support of bringing back Patch 6.0 tire model!!! It's best feature was punishing those who abuse their tires. Right now, even though I am notorious for getting much better tire wear than most of the guys in my league, I am not gaining much advantage from it as they don't get punished enough for their misuse of their tires.

Zpectre87
09-11-2016, 13:13
Yes, it was Mario that made that statement. I also share your fear as well. 110% support of bringing back Patch 6.0 tire model!!! It's best feature was punishing those who abuse their tires. Right now, even though I am notorious for getting much better tire wear than most of the guys in my league, I am not gaining much advantage from it as they don't get punished enough for their misuse of their tires.

How were those tires? Even less grip when worn/hot? I'm a late newcomer, sorry.

Usually when tire wear gets to around 40% I begin to feel the effects in the handling. Problem is that hards are almost worthless. In GT4 career you can easily do two stints on softs even at 100% length, with minimal performance loss. Therefore, you can put down quali laps after quali laps and not feel the effects until you're about to pit anyway.

hkraft300
09-11-2016, 14:28
How were those tires? Even less grip when worn/hot? I'm a late newcomer, sorry.

Usually when tire wear gets to around 40% I begin to feel the effects in the handling. Problem is that hards are almost worthless. In GT4 career you can easily do two stints on softs even at 100% length, with minimal performance loss. Therefore, you can put down quali laps after quali laps and not feel the effects until you're about to pit anyway.

Mate you missed out! You would've loved it.
Tyre wear increased and grip dropped if the tyres got hot, as it does now.
Difference was that you couldn't put down quali laps or slide about on a hot track: tyres would get real hot real quick and snowball out of control, unless you were smooth, paced yourself and the compound suited the track temp. You couldn't abuse them on a cold night track either.
I didn't have a wheel back then and I couldn't run a race longer than 20 minutes with the gamepad, on softs during daylight. I could smash out a few fast laps to attack/defend then I'd have to pace myself to rest the tyres.
Think: current Pirelli F1-ish, but nowhere as bad.

Don't fret, lads. Judging by Casey's posts back then, I'll bet on a return to similar tyre behaviour in pcars2 :D

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-11-2016, 15:36
Problem is that hards are almost worthless.FWIW IRL the vast majority of GT3 and GT4 series don't have soft, medium and hard tyres as options, there's just one slick compound that the tyre supplier of the series sends them for the race and that's it.

Zpectre87
09-11-2016, 20:13
Mate you missed out! You would've loved it.
Tyre wear increased and grip dropped if the tyres got hot, as it does now.
Difference was that you couldn't put down quali laps or slide about on a hot track: tyres would get real hot real quick and snowball out of control, unless you were smooth, paced yourself and the compound suited the track temp. You couldn't abuse them on a cold night track either.
I didn't have a wheel back then and I couldn't run a race longer than 20 minutes with the gamepad, on softs during daylight. I could smash out a few fast laps to attack/defend then I'd have to pace myself to rest the tyres.
Think: current Pirelli F1-ish, but nowhere as bad.

Don't fret, lads. Judging by Casey's posts back then, I'll bet on a return to similar tyre behaviour in pcars2 :D

I have flashbacks of that in the Escort. :D (but not quite, still)

Yeah my only concern would be making the AI adapt to it as well, then it'd be top notch.

poirqc
09-11-2016, 21:30
I drive the Mustang GT4 quite often, i don't have any trouble managing the tire wear. I keep the them inline. But as soon as i push it too much, and spin it only 1 time, without burning much tire, i can really see a difference in the handling after that.

Even if i have plently of tire to spare, i have to be alot more cautious about trowing it into bends.

DreamsKnight
10-11-2016, 10:38
how many here have a pro driver license and know the grip of real gt3 car or formula? just to know.

cause i read a lot of opinions, differences between games, but no one can speak about real facts.

the debate on the grip of the tires is one of the funniest things and fancy that exists in the sim racing world. :D

just imagine a thing: call ben collins and say him "hey ben, tires have too much grip, i know for sure, i study a lot of videos on youtube. who are you ? " :D

Fanapryde
10-11-2016, 11:10
how many here have a pro driver license and know the grip of real gt3 car or formula? just to know.

cause i read a lot of opinions, differences between games, but no one can speak about real facts.

the debate on the grip of the tires is one of the funniest things and fancy that exists in the sim racing world. :D
No Pro driver license here, but I raced a couple of years in 125cc karts, was so lucky to do some laps in a BMW Z4 GT3 and a BMW silhouette at Spa (as a passenger).
My guess is that a lot of people here would be immensely surprised about the grip level these cars have (as soon as the slicks are within working temperature).
"Problem" is that if the car looses grip, it happens very quick and it is very difficult to recover from it. That happens when you are too fast or when the tires are not warm enough.
When I compare to the grip level of the Z4 GT3 in pCars, I'd say it is too low, AC's version in OPTIMAL track conditions is closer to what I have experienced.

Zpectre87
10-11-2016, 13:26
No Pro driver license here, but I raced a couple of years in 125cc karts, was so lucky to do some laps in a BMW Z4 GT3 and a BMW silhouette at Spa (as a passenger).
My guess is that a lot of people here would be immensely surprised about the grip level these cars have (as soon as the slicks are within working temperature).
"Problem" is that if the car looses grip, it happens very quick and it is very difficult to recover from it. That happens when you are too fast or when the tires are not warm enough.
When I compare to the grip level of the Z4 GT3 in pCars, I'd say it is too low, AC's version in OPTIMAL track conditions is closer to what I have experienced.

I haven't driven the Z4 in either sim but everyone who reports on AC's version says it relentlessly sticks to the track like glue... And, TBH, that's believable. The Z4 is one of the GT3 cars that generates the most downforce and has one of the least torquey engines. The very reason BMW moved to the M6 in GT3 was because the M6's TTV8 engine has so much more oomph compared to the NA V8 in the Z4.

(of course, YouTube prepubescent kids who only care about loudness and flaming exhausts don't understand the specifics and criticize the M6 for having a "silent" turbo engine, but that's a discussion for another day)

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-11-2016, 13:49
When I compare to the grip level of the Z4 GT3 in pCars, I'd say it is too low, AC's version in OPTIMAL track conditions is closer to what I have experienced.If you're talking about the Soft tyres in pCARS I think they're actually a bit too high on grip for GT3 tyres, probably closer to GTE rubber, but mostly I think that there's a difference in perceived grip between the games due to the behavior over the edge (EDIT: and that can vary from car to car, for example the 80s tyres in AC are absolutely god awful past the limit), i.e. you can have more grip but still feel like you have less of it if going over the limit is punishing enough. AC can be super forgiving at times, way too much so really:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywmyp3GN9f8

I mean drivers have said that GT racing slicks aren't horrible on the edge, they can be slid fairly comfortably, but what I did there is a bit over the top, and I had been at it for a few laps.

It's a complicated discussion overall, there's so much more to it than a simple "how much grip" issues, "when", "how" and "what kind" also play massively into the perception of grip.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-11-2016, 14:00
The very reason BMW moved to the M6 in GT3 was because the M6's TTV8 engine has so much more oomph compared to the NA V8 in the Z4.That, and the platform being really damn old, the oldest on the grid. =)
Plus the GTE/GT3 unification talks probably played heavily into it, they wanted a single platform for both, unfortunately that crashed and now they only have a GT3 car and a GTLM car that can only race in the US and even there only because of a special waiver... Not what they wanted but they're cutting their losses.

There has been a big push towards turbos in GT racing, definitely. It's not that long ago that basically Nissan, Bentley and McLaren were the only ones, now they're being joined by Ford, Ferrari and BMW. It has already caused some friction at higher altitudes (what with turbos not caring about altitude power wise that much), wonder how things will play out in the long run, I guess they have the tools to adjust for that. Wonder when Audi (and by extension Lamborghini), Mercedes, Aston and Porsche will follow suit. Somehow I don't see Chevy fielding a turbo Corvette though... =)

AbeWoz
10-11-2016, 14:31
That, and the platform being really damn old, the oldest on the grid. =)
Plus the GTE/GT3 unification talks probably played heavily into it, they wanted a single platform for both, unfortunately that crashed and now they only have a GT3 car and a GTLM car that can only race in the US and even there only because of a special waiver... Not what they wanted but they're cutting their losses.

There has been a big push towards turbos in GT racing, definitely. It's not that long ago that basically Nissan, Bentley and McLaren were the only ones, now they're being joined by Ford, Ferrari and BMW. It has already caused some friction at higher altitudes (what with turbos not caring about altitude power wise that much), wonder how things will play out in the long run, I guess they have the tools to adjust for that. Wonder when Audi (and by extension Lamborghini), Mercedes, Aston and Porsche will follow suit. Somehow I don't see Chevy fielding a turbo Corvette though... =)

I wouldn't put it past them (Chevy) as the C7-Z06 is supercharged. With the new ZR1 in testing still, it is unclear if that will be an upgraded Z06 powertrain, or perhaps something entirely new. Time will tell.

Zpectre87
10-11-2016, 18:00
That, and the platform being really damn old, the oldest on the grid. =)
Plus the GTE/GT3 unification talks probably played heavily into it, they wanted a single platform for both, unfortunately that crashed and now they only have a GT3 car and a GTLM car that can only race in the US and even there only because of a special waiver... Not what they wanted but they're cutting their losses.

In addition to obeying the rules, I wanted BMW to field a 4,0L TTV8 because my OCD dictates that 4,4L just feels wrong when Bentley fields an Audi-built 4,0L TTV8. :D


There has been a big push towards turbos in GT racing, definitely. It's not that long ago that basically Nissan, Bentley and McLaren were the only ones, now they're being joined by Ford, Ferrari and BMW. It has already caused some friction at higher altitudes (what with turbos not caring about altitude power wise that much), wonder how things will play out in the long run, I guess they have the tools to adjust for that. Wonder when Audi (and by extension Lamborghini), Mercedes, Aston and Porsche will follow suit. Somehow I don't see Chevy fielding a turbo Corvette though... =)

That could be solved by opening restrictors to the max in NA cars and restricting boost on the turbos, but it's never that simple... :D In pCARS to my knowledge there's no BoP (unlike in older SMS/Blimey! games such as GTR2) so you can run away with the championship in a clearly superior car.

Chevrolet's been caught testing a mid-engine road car rumored to be a new Corvette, so it's possible they move to that. As the largest NA engine on the grid, they don't really need turbos for now. One thing's for certain, though: they're well aware of Ford's huge recent success and want to fight back.

AbeWoz
10-11-2016, 19:12
....One thing's for certain, though: they're well aware of Ford's huge recent cheating and want to fight back.

FTFY ;)

Jezza819
10-11-2016, 19:39
That, and the platform being really damn old, the oldest on the grid. =)
Plus the GTE/GT3 unification talks probably played heavily into it, they wanted a single platform for both, unfortunately that crashed and now they only have a GT3 car and a GTLM car that can only race in the US and even there only because of a special waiver... Not what they wanted but they're cutting their losses.



I think the M6 also ran Blancpain this past year and won the 24 Hours Of Spa I believe. Is that series not covered by normal GT3 regulations?

Zpectre87
10-11-2016, 19:44
I think the M6 also ran Blancpain this past year and won the 24 Hours Of Spa I believe. Is that series not covered by normal GT3 regulations?

Yes it is. That's why it could race there.

rosko
10-11-2016, 22:20
how many here have a pro driver license and know the grip of real gt3 car or formula? just to know.

cause i read a lot of opinions, differences between games, but no one can speak about real facts.

the debate on the grip of the tires is one of the funniest things and fancy that exists in the sim racing world. :D

just imagine a thing: call ben collins and say him "hey ben, tires have too much grip, i know for sure, i study a lot of videos on youtube. who are you ? " :D

Not sure if you have been reading the last few pages but we are talking about lap times of pro drivers for comparison to the game, so lets not create a straw man. Maths & data is the only reliable source imo plenty of pro drivers have been critical of pcars handling its not really an argument to say pro drivers are involved it must be correct. The only thing to settle this would be to compare telemetry of each car class on a laser scanned track to their real life counterparts. Probably never happen, but if it did the you could say 'Hey Ben, tires have too much grip, i know for sure, i studied the amount grip because i measured it scientifically' then add the line 'who are you?' if you want to sound like a dopey t#@t which tbh he would already probably think that anyways.

Zpectre87
10-11-2016, 23:02
Not sure if you have been reading the last few pages but we are talking about lap times of pro drivers for comparison to the game, so lets not create a straw man. Maths & data is the only reliable source imo plenty of pro drivers have been critical of pcars handling its not really an argument to say pro drivers are involved it must be correct. The only thing to settle this would be to compare telemetry of each car class on a laser scanned track to their real life counterparts. Probably never happen, but if it did the you could say 'Hey Ben, tires have too much grip, i know for sure, i studied the amount grip because i measured it scientifically' then add the line 'who are you?' if you want to sound like a dopey t#@t which tbh he would already probably think that anyways.

Lap times are probably the least important variable. They're easy to increase with the right tires. Car behavior is far more important in a tire model.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
10-11-2016, 23:03
I think the M6 also ran Blancpain this past year and won the 24 Hours Of Spa I believe. Is that series not covered by normal GT3 regulations?I meant the GTLM car can't run anywhere except the US. Usually GTLM cars are the same thing as GTE cars, so the Ford GT LM GTE, Aston Martin V8 Vantage GTE, Ferrari 488 GTE, Chevrolet Corvette C7.R and Porsche 911 RSR run in both the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship GTLM class and ACO(& FIA) WEC LMGTE Pro class.

The BMW M6 GTLM though (which is the sister car of the M6 GT3, almost identical apart from a couple of details) isn't built to actual GTE spec, and it is only allowed in the IMSA GTLM class because BMW was granted a special waiver. If not, they would have been relegated to only driving the M6 GT3 in the GTD class, and BMW has been a staple of the GTLM class in the US for a long time now.

The reason the M6 GTLM isn't full ACO GTE spec is because when the talks for unifying the GTE and GT3 regulations finally broke off they had already been building the car with certain expectations, and couldn't adapt it to full GTE spec as easily as they would have wanted to. IMSA is a bit more lenient than ACO in these things and allowed them in anyway with slight changes to the car (removed some driving aids, different engine restrictor, slight aero changes). The BMW M3 GT2 and BMW Z4 GTE apparently weren't fully GTE compliant either, when the M3 GT2 took part in the Intercontinental Le Mans Cup races in Europe they had to change quite a lot in it from how they had ran it in the States, and the Z4 GTE only ran in Europe after two years of US only races, when a privateer team bought an old one and adapted it themselves.

The M6 GT3 on the other hand is a normal, fully approved GT3 car, so no issues there.

On a side note, it REALLY irritates me horribly that the unification discussions crashed and burned. Now that the aero restrictions on GTE have been relaxed the manufacturers can make the cars almost identical anyway, so it makes even less sense than before to have them as separate classes... Just look at the Ferrari 488 GTE/GT3. Apart from the different type of restrictor used and the gearing in GT3 being more restricted the running gear is pretty much identical, the chassis is damn near identical, and externally the only real differences are slightly different splitters (GTE splitter has small cutaways on the sides), diveplanes on the GTE (though possibly you could put them on the GT3 too if you wanted), slightly different front fenders (GTE has simple cutaways at the trailing edge, the GT3 has more elaborate shaped vents and louvers on the top of the fender) and a small difference on the sideskirt (GTE has a kink further back and is angled slightly differently overall). GTE mandates front tyres to be slightly smaller diameter, so there might be a small difference there. That's about it, the rear diffuser is the same, the rear wing is the same, with just a couple of panel changes and very small running gear changes they'd be the same car. Sigh.

The M6 GT3/GTLM situation is much the same.


For the first time, BMW’s GTLM and GT3 models are launching simultaneously, and as it turns out, there’s very little difference between the two platforms.

The GT3 variant features the same sized (rear) tires all around, while the GTLM — which is homologated for IMSA competition only — has a slightly smaller tires on the front, per GTE rules (680 vs 710 mm).

The other difference in tires comes from the manufacturers themselves, as BMW Team RLL works with Michelin in GTLM and Continental Tire is the exclusive provider in GTD.

There’s also a slight difference in aero between the cars, with the GT3 variant having two front dive planes, compared to one on the GTLM. Also, the GTLM car does not have a decklid spoiler.

“Fundamentally, the GTLM is a little more efficient car,” O’Connell said. “Originally in the GT3 rules, they have a little bit more power than GTLM overseas. EDIT: aka the GT3 version running in GTD class is more restricted than European GT3 spec, which we knew already

“But the cars are very close [in IMSA]. The chassis are virtually identical. The basic frame of the car is the same. There’s just little differences in clutch and some of the systems that are allowed.”

EDIT: BTW, BMW is working on a new GTE car for 2018, which they intend to use to compete in WEC, which would also race @ Le Mans, first BMW to do that since 2011.

hkraft300
11-11-2016, 00:10
Not sure if you have been reading the last few pages but we are talking about lap times of pro drivers for comparison to the game, so lets not create a straw man. Maths & data is the only reliable source imo plenty of pro drivers have been critical of pcars handling its not really an argument to say pro drivers are involved it must be correct. The only thing to settle this would be to compare telemetry of each car class on a laser scanned track to their real life counterparts.

How many have done telemetry/data collection+analysis before declaring "pcars has too much grip"? I think that's the point DreamKnight was making.
Laser scanned tracks can and do have inaccuracies, and a dynamic environment such as a racetrack with different drivers, weather conditions, tyre suppliers etc are too many variables for a control environment.
Virtual skid pan test vs real?
Compare the output of the tyre code of the game vs manufacturers/lab tests results?
Beyond the scope/budget/reason of most.
I trust SMS to be aiming for more accuracy in tyre behaviour in following iterations. They're the ones out there talking to race drivers, building the virtual car models, out on race tracks, analysing telemetry...


Lap times are probably the least important variable. They're easy to increase with the right tires. Car behavior is far more important in a tire model.

Lap times are too variable to accurately measure SIM vs RL. It gives an overall picture, yet there's so much more to it.
Vehicle model, track model, weather, wind, resurfacing, setup, driver... List goes on.

antonpaco
11-11-2016, 09:10
It is very hard to compare DC and PC, they are different games, I played Driveclub for more than 1 year and I can say that is a very nice game, funny, technically good, is an arcade game. Multiplayer mode is well done, fast, and the support of the developpers was very good.
Project cars is not an arcade game, has a lot of vehicles and tracks, but technically has various bugs, for example some cars are undriveable when rains. I believe the reasons why much people hate PC is the many settings to be used for wheel and cars, it is not simple to understand all that information. Not all gamers like to loose time with setup, they just want to seat and play. Also the career is very long and not simply to understand, you need time to realize as work.

hkraft300
11-11-2016, 13:07
That ^I think is also a big reason.
Pcars has brought a proper SIM to the console market, way beyond what the average console racer (including myself) could handle. It's a HUGE step from DriveClub, Gran Turismo, Forza, Grid...

Which cars do you find undriveable in the rain? Jussi had mentioned the Yellowbird being difficult, for me it's the TS040 but that's my own incompetence.

poirqc
11-11-2016, 22:11
That ^I think is also a big reason.
Pcars has brought a proper SIM to the console market, way beyond what the average console racer (including myself) could handle. It's a HUGE step from DriveClub, Gran Turismo, Forza, Grid...

Which cars do you find undriveable in the rain? Jussi had mentioned the Yellowbird being difficult, for me it's the TS040 but that's my own incompetence.

If anyone find dring under rain hard in this game(it can genuinely be), try driving a real kart under heavy rain. You don't even have to drive a powerfull one. It's even harder than skating. Forget about driving the good line, you have to drive outside of it. Even then, you have to drive like miss daisy's driver!

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
11-11-2016, 23:23
If anyone find dring under rain hard in this game(it can genuinely be), try driving a real kart under heavy rain. You don't even have to drive a powerfull one. It's even harder than skating. Forget about driving the good line, you have to drive outside of it. Even then, you have to drive like miss daisy's driver!Yeah, driving a kart in the rain is an exercise of "how the hell do I transfer the load to the outside tyres?"

But on a similar note, drifting a kart in the rain is a lot of fun! =)

Pisshead30
12-11-2016, 09:44
It is very hard to compare DC and PC, they are different games, I played Driveclub for more than 1 year and I can say that is a very nice game, funny, technically good, is an arcade game. Multiplayer mode is well done, fast, and the support of the developpers was very good.
Project cars is not an arcade game, has a lot of vehicles and tracks, but technically has various bugs, for example some cars are undriveable when rains. I believe the reasons why much people hate PC is the many settings to be used for wheel and cars, it is not simple to understand all that information. Not all gamers like to loose time with setup, they just want to seat and play. Also the career is very long and not simply to understand, you need time to realize as work.

I totally agree Driveclub was and still is a fun game to play and to me apart from the fact both PC and Driveclub are both racing games they are totally different.
Driveclub was a disaster on Day1 but the guys fought back with several updates and took on feedback from the players and fixed the game and totally took everyone by surprise with hugely fun and entertaining driveclub bikes, no other game comes close to the amount of content we got for the season pass amazing value and now for those who supported the game by buying the season pass get Driveclub VR for Ģ15.99 on PS Store. Bargain!!!

As for PCars its an incredible game but was spoilt by the bugs and freezing to blue screen we all had to deal with and unfortunately still have to deal as the development is pretty much finished.
I think its pretty much lesson learned and Pcars2 with destroy every other racing game ever made, well I hope it will....

DreamsKnight
12-11-2016, 13:54
How many have done telemetry/data collection+analysis before declaring "pcars has too much grip"? I think that's the point DreamKnight was making.
Laser scanned tracks can and do have inaccuracies, and a dynamic environment such as a racetrack with different drivers, weather conditions, tyre suppliers etc are too many variables for a control environment.
Virtual skid pan test vs real?
Compare the output of the tyre code of the game vs manufacturers/lab tests results?
Beyond the scope/budget/reason of most.
I trust SMS to be aiming for more accuracy in tyre behaviour in following iterations. They're the ones out there talking to race drivers, building the virtual car models, out on race tracks, analysing telemetry...



Lap times are too variable to accurately measure SIM vs RL. It gives an overall picture, yet there's so much more to it.
Vehicle model, track model, weather, wind, resurfacing, setup, driver... List goes on.

My point is even more simple. I do not like to express a definitive opinion and certain about things I do not know, and i don't understand why others try do that.

No One here is a pro driver so no One can express a definitive opinion about tire grip and car behaviour. We can only compare different games. No more.

Looking to games, we know for sure pcars had an active support in development by pro driver, not only marketing. What about assetto corsa, raceroom etc? This is something let me thinking pcars tire grip is more accurate.


After this, we can speak about the time we can spent on the game. I'm doing a formula c Championship, and we are 3-4 driver who race with times next to time trial records (tenths). I spent 14000km in two months for 5 races. But in the First approach to track i am usually 8 to 10 seconds slower.

eiwhatsup
14-11-2016, 13:25
The only thing I've been hating so far after they sorted out the tyre cooldown problem is those laughable low pressures you can run and the high temps your tyres can achieve without even going orange colour, and of course, without the consequence of losing grip.

I've just made a race against AI; road b car/mercedes sls amg with soft track tyres. I've been running them at 110š celsius and the tyres were still green lol. Just why didn't they adjust this thing back again?. At 110š tyres should be burning, just as they did previously in this very game. Why didn't they reverte this?

hkraft300
14-11-2016, 13:40
I've found 110c fine through all the patches. I actually prefer 105-110c in GT+LMP cars. They get a bit intolerant of sloppyness at 115c+. Yes the grip still seems to be there but when they let go, they let go badly. FRenault get really sensitive above 110c, too.
FA are good up to about 120c before they get slippery.
Not sure of Road class cars: their tyres are modeled after super-sticky semi-slick track day tyres, no? In which case that "high" temp should still be ok?

Trans-Girl
19-11-2016, 10:09
I have sat and read through most of this thread and in my opinion this "hate" thing is simply they can't just jump in a car tear round a track and bounce off walls without slowing down etc, not knocking what they want, for me that's not racing, it can be a giggle just not racing, few people are naturally quick drivers ( senna etc) most of us have to work at being quick, these "haters" don't want to work at it they just want to be quick.. instant gratification etc.
At the end of the day Project Cars, like GT or Forza is just entertainment, as good or as bad you may feel they are they are supposed to be about fun, they will never be perfect, neither is the real world, when something goes wrong, sure come on here have a rant etc, go away have a beer or whatever then come back and try again.. Enjoy it.

You may have noticed the " " around hate and haters, this is because what they feel isn't hate it may well be annoyance or just plain old dislike, not hate.. trust me i know what it is like to be on the wrong side of hate.... Genuine hate is a horrible thing to be on the wrong end of, it ruins lives, it takes lives.

Sankyo
19-11-2016, 13:15
Well if you'd know the history of pCARS/WMD you'd know there is genuine, irrational hate towards the game and SMS with some people. You only have to search around on the Internet to confirm this.

morpwr
19-11-2016, 14:29
My point is even more simple. I do not like to express a definitive opinion and certain about things I do not know, and i don't understand why others try do that.

No One here is a pro driver so no One can express a definitive opinion about tire grip and car behaviour. We can only compare different games. No more.

Looking to games, we know for sure pcars had an active support in development by pro driver, not only marketing. What about assetto corsa, raceroom etc? This is something let me thinking pcars tire grip is more accurate.


After this, we can speak about the time we can spent on the game. I'm doing a formula c Championship, and we are 3-4 driver who race with times next to time trial records (tenths). I spent 14000km in two months for 5 races. But in the First approach to track i am usually 8 to 10 seconds slower.

I actually ran across the wmd notes by accident from the drivers when they where doing tire modeling testing.Too bad somebody from sms or wmd cant post the notes. It was a lot of reading but I was very impressed by the amount of work the guys put into it. Not only that but not all of everything they did worked and they took the criticism in stride and made adjustments. Some of the comments by the real pro drivers on what was wrong with the tires was quite interesting. Its something that would probably help a lot of people when they complain about what they think isn't a correct grip level. I totally agree with you statement about being a pro driver.

LogRoad
19-11-2016, 16:35
The compilation is still available, though somewhat buried:

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/project-cars-driver-feedback-compilation-available/#more-6777

rosko
19-11-2016, 19:20
The compilation is still available, though somewhat buried:

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/project-cars-driver-feedback-compilation-available/#more-6777

Some interesting reading. Worth noting most of these comments are for a pre alpha version of PC.

I have done all of my testing at Spa and after a few laps I was able to do a 2:19.7. I believe that Casey Ringley said that the pole time this year in real life for a Z4 GT3 was a 2:19.5, so this puts us in the correct ball-park for a realistic lap time. All that is needed is more front-end grip e.g. less understeer, and maybe a little more traction on the exit of corners, but I was very impressed with how changing the ‘damping’ on the rear made the traction better.


At the moment I see a slight difference with the rear now as it is a bit more controllable when it begins to slide on power, it is not much of a difference as it still ‘snaps’ if you go to far, but it is a good step forward in making the car more realistic. I seemed to have a bit more understeer in medium speed corners compared to before, but now even with a ‘scrappy’ lap I am able to get a 2:18 around Spa which gives us an unrealistic lap-time, as before I was able to do a 2:19 on a good lap which matched the ‘Real-life’ lap-time which is a 2:19.5. What are your thoughts on this?


I remember a while back Casey was talking abouthaving accurate laptimes, which simulate real life, which I think is very important, as Project Cars is a simulation game and should be as accurate as possible in every way. When the BTM tire was present, laptimes were down to 2:14. When the SETA mod was introduced the car was a nightmare to drive and no one got on with it until the first round of changes were made which made the car

So Nicholas is giving feedback here & pointing out the lap times are close & using the real life times as a reference point & when it drifts to a second faster indicating its unrealistic. And yet most of you on here are telling me that lap times are not significant & making up all sorts of excuses as to why the car is 6, 7 or more seconds faster on spa these days & even more so on other tracks.

Zpectre87
20-11-2016, 00:04
In general real GT3 uses spec tire and are slower than GTE, but in this game they can be easily faster... That's down to the tires being better, because GTE has better aero.

Which is why I wanted the classes to be split with GT3 using a slower tire to make some difference. This is one of several design choices in the game I did not like... This made the V8 Aston useless. If SMS had had the cash to license Ferrari and/or Porsche, this would not have happened and we would've had a dedicated GTE class, that's for sure, as we would have had three GTE cars at launch (BMW, Aston and Ferrari/Porsche) instead of two.

skip7950
20-11-2016, 05:50
I would say that as a ps4 user only, it may be inferior to the PC version, or games like iracing on PC only....but I don't know the difference (no pc) so ignorance is bliss!! I think pCars is fantastic and those who developed it did a truly amazing job! The world created within the game is so enveloping that after 4 months and over 150 hours (at least) I feel I am just scratching the surface in many ways....cannot see how I will ever get bored with this title. With any game, it isn't who has the most toys, but who gets the most fun, enjoyment, and fulfillment out of it!

Sankyo
20-11-2016, 06:50
Some interesting reading. Worth noting most of these comments are for a pre alpha version of PC.






So Nicholas is giving feedback here & pointing out the lap times are close & using the real life times as a reference point & when it drifts to a second faster indicating its unrealistic. And yet most of you on here are telling me that lap times are not significant & making up all sorts of excuses as to why the car is 6, 7 or more seconds faster on spa these days & even more so on other tracks.

Comparing virtual vs real lap times has only limited value IMO. Perhaps when a professional race driver drives the same way he does in reality (which is why armchair racers are often faster than them, because they're not hampered by real-life limitations being part of their muscle memory) the limits on the difference could be smaller, but in general I don't agree with his statement that a 1-second difference would be unrealistic. For a 2:19 lap time that would be far less than 1% difference which in my book is pretty great.

Zpectre87
20-11-2016, 07:12
Comparing virtual vs real lap times has only limited value IMO. Perhaps when a professional race driver drives the same way he does in reality (which is why armchair racers are often faster than them, because they're not hampered by real-life limitations being part of their muscle memory) the limits on the difference could be smaller, but in general I don't agree with his statement that a 1-second difference would be unrealistic. For a 2:19 lap time that would be far less than 1% difference which in my book is pretty great.

Especially noticeable at the Nordschleife since, if you bin it in the game, you don't die.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
20-11-2016, 18:38
That's down to the tires being better, because GTE has better aero."Better" is an iffy term, because it doesn't in this case necessarily mean "more downforce". The pre-2016 regulations GTE cars didn't even have diffusers, just an angled flat plate at the rear, and very limited with what they could do with the rear wing and front splitter too.

What they did/do have is efficiency, they produce(d) less drag for a given amount of DF. The past/present tense stuff being related to the 2016 regulations update, since now both GT3 and GTE cars can run almost identical aero devices.